The 7 Conversations to Have with Your Kid Before They Get a Device w/ Dr. Jean Twenge

Summary

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Raising Good Humans | "The 7 Conversations to Have with Your Kid Before They Get a Device"

Host: Dr. Aliza Pressman
Guest: Dr. Jean Twenge
Date: January 23, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features Dr. Jean Twenge, Professor of Psychology at San Diego State University and author of 10 Rules for Raising Kids in a High Tech World. Together with host and developmental psychologist Dr. Aliza Pressman, they discuss the essential conversations and rules parents should have before their child receives any kind of digital device—regardless of age. The conversation is empathetic, practical, and filled with both evidence-based recommendations and real-life parenting experiences.

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Key Topics & Insights

1. Why Conversations (and Rules) Matter

• The episode distinguishes between rules (practical boundaries) and conversations (values, information, and context shared with kids).
• Dr. Pressman emphasizes, "You need to take into account your own household...you know your kids and their capacity and your capacity. And that is a huge factor that cannot be replicated in studies..." (01:10)

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2. The Seven Conversations to Have Before Giving a Device

1. Never Send Nudes

• Essential to explicitly state with children—don’t assume they know.
• Dr. Twenge: “Snapchat receives 10,000 reports of sextortion a month.” (03:16)
• Risks aren’t just from friends—often blackmailers are involved.

2. What You Post is Public

• "Don’t post anything on social media or online that you wouldn’t want announced on a loudspeaker at school.” (04:06)
• Privacy is an illusion—screenshots and other technology make anything sharable.

3. Don't Share Identifying Info Online or in Games

• Children often underestimate the risks of sharing things like address, birthday, or even seemingly innocuous personal details.
• "If someone can get your name, your birthday, and your Social Security number, they can steal your identity." (05:06)

4. Assume All Texts and Snaps are Public

• “Texts...can be screenshotted and end up going anywhere...especially true for kids if they have a falling out with a friend.” (05:25-05:48)
• Caution against thinking digital messages are private—as opposed to, say, a diary.

5. Never Post or Send Anything Mean

• “Think twice and three times before you post anything mean and then don’t do it.” (06:14)
• Inhibitions are lower online; what’s said digitally lingers and can escalate interpersonal conflict.

6. If You’re Curious About Sex or Bodies, Ask a Trusted Adult First

• Open invitation to discuss uncomfortable topics: “If you’re curious about bodies or sex, ask me first. Or we can look it up together.” (07:24)
• The internet may present frightening or disturbing results to innocent questions.

7. Time is Precious—Prioritize Real Life

• “What are you going to remember from your teen years? The hours you spent playing Block Blast or the times you spent with your friends in person?” (12:45)
• Encourage critical reflection about time spent online vs. offline.

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3. Setting Household Device Rules

Most Critical Rule: No Devices in Bedrooms Overnight

• "If you only have the bandwidth for one, do that one. The research on it is super clear." (13:54)
• Sleep is highly impacted by devices; kids lack the self-control to avoid late-night use.

On Consistency and Pushback

• Clear, meaningful rules hold up better than “silly,” overly granular ones.
• “If we get too granular about them...then we lose credibility. But when they're like, no, these actually really make a difference and matter, it's easier to follow them.” (17:31)

First Phones Should Be Basic

• “So for very young kids, get them a flip phone, then they can call you. They can't do anything else on it.” (18:25-20:18)
• Smartwatches may be more problematic than helpful for young children.

No Social Media Until Age 16 or Later

• There is no magic age, but data show risks diminish after age 16.
• “There are a few studies...and those suggest 16 or later for smartphones. Same thing with social media. The link between social media and say low life satisfaction or depression is stronger at those younger ages and weaker after age 16.” (28:28)
• "Sixteen is also when we trust kids to drive. There's a ton of maturity that happens between 13...and 16." (28:28-29:17)
• Tying the phone to getting a driver's license can incentivize both independence and responsibility.

Tech-Free Zones & Times

• Family meals should be device-free—including for parents.
• Addressing hypocrisy: “If you don't want your kids to be on their phone during dinner, you shouldn't be either.” (33:35)

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4. Dealing With Resistance and Revising Mistakes

Expect Teen Pushback

• “It's kind of teen's job to push back. That's what they're doing.” (34:07)
• The “everyone else is doing it” argument is as old as parenting. Parental confidence in setting different standards is crucial.

Adjusting Rules If You’ve Already Relented

• “I made mistakes. I absolutely made mistakes...But you can...put the genie back in the bottle. It can be done.” (36:13)
• Practical advice for walking back permissive tech rules, even if it results in temporary anger.

The Value of Repair Over Perfection

• “Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Do the good that you can. And yeah, you're gonna mess up. I certainly did. But learn from those mistakes and move forward.” (39:24)

Parental Influence Still Matters

• “When we keep saying that the outside world needs to sort of regulate this to the point where it won't be our burden, I think it actually takes away the major amount of influence we have with our kids.” (40:59)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On explicit digital safety:
  “No, you need to say it. Kids have crushes and they don't always realize or process that, oh, I'm just sending this to my friend. Well, once you do that, it can go anywhere.” (03:15, Twenge)

• On leading by example:
  “Adults are allowed a certain amount of what I call digital hypocrisy...but if you don't want your kids to be on their phone during dinner, you shouldn't be either.” (33:35, Twenge)

• On habit-building:
  “You have to instill those good habits, and then hopefully it's become rote for her to not be on her phone in the middle of the night. I hope you bought her an alarm clock too.” (14:21, Pressman)

• On tech as 'freedom' versus isolation:
  “My 15 year old would be one of those kids if it wasn't for the incentive of getting a smartphone. My oldest was right there. She would have done it no matter what. But yeah, kids are different.” (31:10, Twenge)

• On room for change:
  “You can dial some things back and then you can also just do your best going forward. Just don't give up. It is too important.” (40:43, Twenge)

• On social pressure and real friendship:
  "If there's someone who will not communicate with you unless you're on a specific platform. They're not really your friend." (41:28, unnamed 18-year-old, quoted by Twenge)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Opening context & framing (Dr. Pressman): 00:10 – 02:51
• The 7 essential conversations: 02:51 – 12:44
• Most important device rule (no devices in bedrooms): 13:54 – 16:34
• Handling resistance and practical rule-setting: 16:34 – 18:25
• First phones and why dumb phones > smartphones: 18:25 – 22:37
• Social media readiness & age guidelines: 25:46 – 31:28
• Tech-free family time & parental hypocrisy: 33:35 – 34:31
• Pushing back against "everyone else is doing it": 34:31 – 36:13
• Reversing bad habits & role of parental influence: 36:13 – end

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Final Takeaways

This episode is a mixture of research-driven rules, compassionate understanding, and actionable conversations for modern parents navigating the digital world. Dr. Twenge and Dr. Pressman encourage parents to set clear, realistic boundaries, have open, age-appropriate discussions, and not to fear “course-correction” or pushback—from teens or the culture at large.

Above all: Setting thoughtful expectations and having real conversations matter far more than being perfect or tech-phobic. Don’t let “perfect” become the enemy of “good”.

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For more resources, join Dr. Aliza Pressman’s Substack and parent group, or check out Dr. Twenge's book, 10 Rules for Raising Kids in a High Tech World.

Transcript

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

The following podcast is a Dear Media production.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

Welcome to Raising good humans. I'm Dr. Eliza Pressman and today we're talking with Professor Jean Twang Yee. She's a professor of psychology at San Diego State University. She's the author of more than 150 scientific publications and her latest book, 10 Rules for Raising Kids in a High Tech World, is out now. This is such a controversial conversation. What we talked about today were the seven conversations that you need to have with your kids before you embark on any technology, regardless of age. So we're talking about those seven conversations and then the fundamental rules that we absolutely need to have in the household. We also Talked about how Dr. Twenge has an age recommendation, which I think is a little bit tricky. You need to take into account your own household. We can't do that for you. So of course researchers and psychologists are going to err on the side of the oldest age possible, to stretch the time between, you know, childhood and exposure to social media, for example. But we also look to you. I mean, ultimately this is a personal decision. You have to also think about your bandwidth, how much support you have, how much support you can give your kids and who they are and what their temperament is. So I don't want you to be so stuck, stuck on an age. But at least when you hear what experts say about age recommendations, it sort of pushes you in the direction of just like, don't do it as early as you think. I don't want anybody to panic. You know, your kids and their capacity and your capacity. And that is a huge factor that cannot be replicated in studies and it isn't something that we can universally say is the thing. So I hope you enjoy this episode. I hope it doesn't stress you out and gives you more confidence to have rules that make sense to you, conversations that will be helpful and as always, reach out to me. Let me know your follow up questions. Follow me on substack drelizapressman.substack.com where I can answer your questions in free articles. Join me in my monthly parent group. That's the membership substack that does have a small fee, but it's less than a cup of coffee, so I feel like it's fine. We'll keep talking about this. Don't forget to subscribe, rate and review for Raising Good Humans podcast to get further out into the world. Okay, take a deep breath for this one. So we're gonna dive right in. So what are the 10 conversations that you want us to have with Our young people, anytime we're thinking about are they ready for devices, like to set them up.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

I think it's important to put this in the context that the book is called 10 Rules because it is about the rules as well as those conversations. But yes, there need to be conversations as well as rules. So I'm just flipping through the book here. So the first one is, never ever send someone a nude picture of yourself. So much bad stuff has happened. I mean, it seems obvious, but there.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

No, you need to say it.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Yeah, you need to say it. Kids have crushes and they don't always realize or process that, oh, I'm just sending this to my friend. Well, once you do that, it can go anywhere. And just as one example, Snapchat receives 10,000 reports of sextortion a month, meaning someone sends a nude picture. And then a blackmailer, who often the kid thinks is someone their age but it's not, will say, I'm going to send this picture to all of your friends and family unless you pay me a certain amount of money.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

And so those are two things, because one is the phone in general, just texting, and then the other is now when you're adding the layer of social media. So the conversation about just generally speaking, there's no universe where you send nudes to anyone.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Yeah, exactly. Because you just never know where it's going to end up.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

Which is. Which I think leads to your next point about what you're posting.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Yes, the next one. Don't post anything on social media or online that you wouldn't want announced on a loudspeaker at school. So because it's public, you may not think about it as public if you just think you're just sending it to your friends. But again, that can go anywhere. They could screenshot it.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

Exactly. Screenshot. I've seen kids also record, like with a separate device, their phones or somebody else's phone, you know, because I think sometimes people are like, well, you're not allowed to screenshot this because there's a rule. But it's like, well, it's easy enough to break.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Exactly. The third one. Don't share information about your identity online or while gaming. And a lot of kids don't realize that, you know, you shouldn't be telling people your home address or your password or anything like that. Or if you get a link. It's the same advice we give to adults. But kids don't always have the experience to know, hey, maybe this is a scam.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

What are examples of personal information beyond, like, name and an address that sometimes comes up that feels innocent enough and.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Isn'T anything around, a password, you know, Social Security number that falls in that category as well. Even your birthday sometimes. Because if someone can get your name, your birthday, and your Social Security number, they can steal your identity. So maybe they got one from one source and then they're asking about the other one.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

Okay.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

All right.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

Keep them coming.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Yeah. Don't assume that texts or Snapchats are private. So texts, we think of that as being private, but again, they can be screenshotted and end up going anywhere. And that's unfortunately especially true for kids if they have a falling out with a friend and then that embarrassing text still there and they can do whatever they want with it. Yeah.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

I remember a while back there was a conversation which is no longer really a conversation about whether or not parents should be sort of monitoring or checking what's going on with text. And. And a lot of young people saying, well, that invades my privacy. And I think to your point, like, it's not really private once, if it were your diary and you hand wrote it, that is sacred and private. But this is. You've made a decision that it's not private the minute it goes on the device.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Yeah. So, you know, you may want to pri. Keep it private from your parents, but you have sent it to a friend and then that friend can put it anywhere. Okay, so next one, Think twice and three times before you post anything mean and then don't do it.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

Sorry, it was that. It's not funny. But it was funny.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Yeah, no, it's, it's. I mean, I try to use humor in the book. It's. It keeps, it keeps it interesting and light and a topic that is. Can be very heavy. But, you know, I mean, this is great advice for adults too, on social media or texting. It's classic social psychology that our inhibitions are lifted when things seem anonymous or when we can't see the face of the person in front of us.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

Yeah. And I think even when we can, this. Yeah, this just adds a layer. Especially at the age when you're just sort of potentially trying to bond over talking negatively about anybody. Okay. So think twice and then don't do it.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Don't do it first because you gotta think about how that other person feels. Even if they've been mean to you, still, they're still a person. You just gotta keep that in mind. If you would not say it to their face, then don't text it or put it on social media.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

Okay.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

So the next One, if you're curious about bodies or sex, ask me first. Or we can look it up together. I've had some people suggest to me, oh, kids have never come to you? My kids have come to me about stuff like that. Yeah, I had that conversation with them, you know, pretty young and not every kid is going to, but, you know, at least the offer is there. But the problem is you do a Google search on that, especially on a device that doesn't have parental controls on it, you're going to get stuff that's scary, let's just put it that way. Even an adult, you have to think about that. Sometimes with certain Google searches, you're like, wait, what am I, what am I going to see that I can't unsee?

[Professor Jean Twenge]

Yeah, that you can't unsee, I think is the most important point. And if we're askable people and we've made that clear, and I think saying that is so important because if you say it before it's happening before, it's a curiosity. I actually think that's true about anything they'd be curious about.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Yeah, good point. Because I mean, violence can fall into that category as well.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

We've had so much of that recently where there's been such violence on devices and it's terrifying. And I think people were curious and the more people are talking about it, they get curious. So if we can get our kids to really come to us when they're curious about something and know that we're open, it's game changing.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Absolutely. That you can't be defensive or mad about it. And you may say, hey, this is something that I don't really want to look up online, but I did this the other day with my 15 year old. We were talking about female reproductive system and I'm like, you know what, I don't really want to Google this. So I went and grabbed the book off the shelf and we looked at that together instead. I figured that was going to be safer and it was.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

That's a good idea. Yeah. But it also is so cool to have the book on the shelf and to be able to say like, this is not something that's. I don't think it's crazy that you're asking me. It's something to be curious about.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Yeah. Yeah. And that's how, that, that's how it has to be, you know? Yeah. I'm glad you asked. I'm glad you're curious about it. You know, let's, let's take a look at this together. I do in the book talk about some downsides of modern parenting. I think that's one of the huge upsides is that we can just be more open to more conversations compared to maybe what conversations we might have had with our parents.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

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[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

So this is actually the last one. So there's the seven conversations within 10 roles, different numbers. So the last one.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

Oh thank you.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

The last one is your time is a precious resource. So I say ask your teens this question. What are you going to remember from your teen years? The hours you spent playing Block Blast or the times you spent with your friends in person. And of course it's going to be the second one. So prioritize that. And this one is a classic example of you can talk to your kids about it, but you have to put the rules in place to actually make it happen because there's so much conspiring against them for them to waste their time in so many different ways. Usually on social media for sure.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

And let's get into the rules because I mean I have like of the five of the five principles of parenting that I wrote it's relationship which you addressed reflection which was just that last question. Regulation which we need in order to go through this and then rules and then of course repair. But I think rules is scary and you mentioned challenges to those rules. What are the most salient rules to you that like really, really matter? And I, and after that maybe we can talk about some of the things that might come between us and feeling like we can be consistent about those rules.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

So I think the most important one is no devices in the bedroom overnight.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

Agreed.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

If you only have the bandwidth for one, do that one. The research on it is super clear. It's really tough for kids to make the argument that they need their phone or access to social media in the middle of the night. It's pretty much a non starter.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

Yeah, I just dropped my daughter off to college and I was like, oh my God, I can't take her phone at night anymore. I have to just hope that this is a habit that sticks.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

And that's, that's what you have to do is you have to instill those, those good habits. And then it, hopefully it's become rote for her to not be on her phone in the middle of the night. I hope you bought her an alarm clock too.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

That's the other thing to do. Yes, I did. But it was, it was one of my biggest concerns because I was like, oh, if sleep is so highly linked with your capacity to manage living on your own here and phones disrupt that so much and I can't just take it. And the other side of that, like when I say this, I hope nobody interprets this as so then you should give them practice managing it on their own before they go to college because that's ridiculous. Like I still would like someone to take my phone away and to ask somebody to have that self control in high school is silly.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Yeah, exactly. People sometimes ask me similar to that, you know, hey, you know, don't they need to practice that? Or don't, you know, when do you let go and like, don't they, you know, won't they go crazy once they get to college? No, I don't, I don't think so. I don't know of any data suggesting that that's the case. That if they have rules and they learn how to, they learn how to work within them and they learn good habits, that then, then they'll go nuts when they get to college. I don't think so.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

And also they know why, like you're not just saying it's a rule, you're giving them pretty good evidence that it's an important one. And then I would say the last part about that is like, let's just say they did then go online all night in college. It's probably a good clue that they would have done that before and that was even a more important wiring time for their brain. So why would you want to rush that? So on either end of the argument, it sort of doesn't really feel great to me.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Exactly. Yeah. Because yeah, they're going to do the bad stuff, you know, when they turned 18. Okay. Better than they did it at 18 instead of 12.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

Right, totally.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

You know, or even 16 or 17.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

I wholeheartedly agree. That's like such a no brainer. What happens to parents a lot is they really want to do this, but then they're like convinced by their incredibly passionate young person at home that they're the only parent in the world or that this is so terrible and like we need to give everybody confidence that it's actually really great.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

No, absolutely. And I always want to make clear, you know, I'm coming at this from the perspective not just as a researcher, but as the parent of three teenagers. And just as one example, because it made me think of it when you were talking about, you know, passionate young person who's going to push back. Right. So my, my 13 year old is actually really, she's pretty good. She's, you know, had her moments, but she's pretty good about, about following the rules and understands them and so on. But I told her the other day she could not have Pinterest on her phone and she said, what, you don't want me to be inspired? So I had to come up with the response to that in the moment, which was, yeah, you can get inspired in other ways. Yeah, but still, yeah, they're, they're, you know, they're gonna push back their teenagers. That, that's their job. It's the other reason why I think it's so much easier to have clear rules rather than squishy ones. So. Yeah, but you do, you have to believe in it yourself and just be, you know, willing to stand your ground.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

Which is why a silly rule is silly, like save them. I think if we get too granular about them and too over the top, then we lose credibility. But when they're like, no, these actually really make a difference and matter, it's easier to follow them.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Yeah. So, yeah, that's what you want. You want rules that are actually going to make a difference. And I've also found too that even though I have a ton of respect for the writers out there who say, hey, let's go completely tech free, I think for the vast majority of families that's just not realistic for a long list of reasons. So given that you have to figure out how to manage the devices, introduce them when they're ready, things like that.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

Okay, let's talk more about the rules because I think you're right. I think this is not for someone who's saying we're just not going to have any technology because that probably is one solution, but I don't know that it's rooted in the reality of 2020. What year are we?

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

2025. Yeah. And you know, I, I, I do think you can take that argument too far. I, I, because I've heard people say, oh, this is just the way kids are now, there's nothing we could do about it. And I strongly disagree with that. But unless you're homeschooling your kids or sending them to the only school in the universe that doesn't have laptops, they're going to have some tech. Right? They're going to have some, they're going to have some technology. And you know, most parents are going to want their kid to have some type of phone, you know, at some point, some middle School. Right. At some point. So I think you have to work within certain parameters. But there's, there's a lot you can do within those parameters. So one thing is the rule number four, which is first phones should be basic phones. So often this comes sometime in middle school, you know, your kids taking a bus or they have sports practice or they're walking to school or whatever it is. And so you want them to have a phone. So what's become common is you just hand them a smartphone. That's it. That's a disaster. You try to solve the one problem of maybe they need to, in an unusual situation, call you like once every other month. And it becomes they're attached to that phone, you know, 10 hours a day. So it solves this relatively small problem by, and then creates a huge, big problem. So for very young kids, get them a flip phone, then they can call you. They can't do anything else on it. Some people do a smartwatch, but I'm really cautious about smartwatches given some things. I've heard of first and second grade teachers having to chase kids off the smart watches where they can watch YouTube on it and play games on it. I sat next to a kid who looked about 11 at my daughter's band concert. She spent the entire time instead of listening to her brother or sister, be in the band and hear some cool music playing a game on her smartwatch. So I think that's maybe not the solution until they're maybe not at all, but maybe not until they're significantly older or if you could lock down the smartwatch somehow.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

Yeah, I know. I mean, I'm always like, do you want that? Because I just think even with adults with a smartwatch, like you could be in conversation and even if they're buzzing, it's buzzing.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Yeah, exactly. In some ways it's worse than a phone. You know, they have limited functionality, but what you want is limited functionality on a phone. So for very young kids, maybe a flip phone, but once they're a little bit older, then you can get basic phones designed for kids where they can text and call, maybe play a few games, but only, you know, if you okay installing them. No social media, no AI companion apps like AI boyfriends and girlfriends, which are becoming shockingly common.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

And most of them have also no Internet browser. So as my 15 year old once put it, you can't do anything on this phone. And I said, that is the point. Even that phone recognized that's not what they're going to use it for. 99% of the time. What they're going to use it for is texting their friends and playing the couple of games you give them access to. Right. So just be cautious about how much you give them access to. I learned that one the hard way. But then they can text their friends and so, you know, beyond like 12 or so, that's often how they're going to communicate. Now should they be seeing each other in person and calling? Absolutely. But texting is kind of where kids are and you know, and again, I don't want to take this argument too far because I've heard people made this make the same argument about social media and that's a myth. As far as I can tell, they do not need social media to communicate with each other. They can call and text and then it doesn't have the algorithm in. Yes, they may still be engrossed in it, but not as much as algorithmic social media. Usually it's one on one, maybe a group text at most. So it's not as performative. There's not the content flowing in from influencers. It's just a different animal.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

Yeah, a lot of people get worried about text right now and I think that's maybe because they feel like it's a gateway. I'm not sure and I, I can see that.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

And for, for a 10 year old, I think it's not a good idea. That's another reason if that's something you're concerned about. Most of the kids phones have a portal where you can see their texts and I actually told, I told my kids like that I'm not really that interested in reading their texts. You know, I just mostly just don't want them on social media. I have, I've told them that many times in terms of my reasoning.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

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[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

So that one kind of sets the table for a bunch of other rules which may be more familiar to people. Things like no social media until 16 and it's much easier to pull that off if your kids don't have a smartphone.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

You know, I don't know if we can unpack this here, but I think there's like this false potential, false information about giving a specific age in the sense that is it even great for a 16 year old? Is it even. Is there some magical age? Is there, are there some 13 year olds who could probably navigate it better? Are your really clear limits protective enough? So I guess to clarify, is the age 16 sort of in the way that like look, we want them to cook as long as possible. That's A, that's an age that feels like, okay, we're stretching it as far as we can and at that point it's going to be socially really trickier. Or is there something in the data that I haven't seen that says like 16 is blank?

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Yeah. So look, if you want to make 18, go for it. I mean I think there are very, very clear arguments for saying no social media until 18. Absolutely. I mean for one thing, when you open a social media account, you have to fill out a contract. You don't have to fill it out, you just have to click on it. But you are entering into a contract where they have access to your data. Like what other contract can anybody sign before they're legally an adult at 18? Like a 17 year old wants to go on a field trip, the parents have to sign off even if that field trips like across the street.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

Right. I mean it's true.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Right. You know, it's crazy. So you know, you could absolutely argue for 18. So the, the rule is actually 16 or later.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

Right.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

For that reason.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

But is it like. Cause I don't want anybody to be freaked out. Cause I'm sure there are plenty of people who have kids who've already started social media and we can get into that too of like the genie back in the bottle. But I also, I want to be super clear about the research versus the recommendations. Like we can't know exactly who's going to do okay with it and who's not gonna do okay with it. And, and maybe some people who are younger with super pro social behaviors and lots of rules and restrictions around what they have access to and really good self regulation skills. Like you don't have to worry about it as much as somebody where I think it could be really harmful. But since we don't know, I guess what I'm trying to get at is, is 16 was there like we're going to randomly assign some kids the phones at different ages and now we have information or was it like given all that we know about developing brains, we're going to just pick an age that feels like it's not too young, that it's absolutely certain they won't be able to manage it well, but it's not too old that it feels like this is too prohibitive and nobody's going to follow it.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

So it's a number of things. So there are a few studies on the age when people get smartphones in their mental health as young adults and those suggest 16 or later for smartphones. Same thing with social media. That the link between social media and say low life satisfaction or depression is stronger at those younger ages and weaker after age 16. Sixteen is also when we trust kids to drive. There's a ton of maturity that happens between 13, which is the technical, you know, age of Internet adulthood. And let me use an example for driving. So in my view this is why we need to pick an age and stick with it. Imagine if we said some 13 year olds are really good at self regulating so we're going to let them drive. Some 21 year olds aren't ready, you know, and they're kind of a hot mess and we're not, we're not going to let them drive. No, we didn't do that. We stuck, we chose an age and.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

We stuck an age.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

We picked an age and we stuck with it. And I think we have to do the same here. And it's just, it's, it's just easier because like, here's another example. Let's say you have more than one kid. Let's even use this example. Let's say you have 13 year old twins and one is a hot mess and the other one is pretty self regulated. Do you give the self regulated kid a phone and then tell the other kid you're, you know, you're not ready for it yet? Even with kids who are. Yeah, even with kids who aren't twins. Just regular siblings, that's what you would run into. But my sister got to do it. I mean that's the first thing my kids would say. I just know it. Yeah. Is it? That was New Jersey. New Jersey, 17. I thought it was 16 in New York. True. There's, I know in Nebraska I think it's maybe 15 and a half like some, some rural area state rule.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

Like it's still like your peers are adhering to the same general premise that like this is the option and that's that. And nobody's trying to lie about anybody's age to get them to drive. Like you just kind of accept that this is, you know, but I don't even want to think about that because I think about, you know, of developing brain and I'm like, could we wait for all of this until later in their 20s?

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Yeah. And that would, and that would be fantastic. You know, and for social media in particular. Yeah, if you want to do that, go for it for a smartphone. The other reason I tied it to 16 is, and it's not just 16 and 16 and you have your driver's license.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

So then it's also that it encourages that driver's license for the kids who might be reluctant. And then also, mom or dad is busy. I want to see my friends. Well, then if you've got the driver's license, you can get in the car and go see your friends. It doesn't have to be on Snapchat or texting.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

I like tying it together with that especially. And this is wild, but it is true. Like, everybody's pushing off, getting their driver's license now.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Yes. And my, my 15 year old would be one of those kids if it wasn't for the incentive of getting a smartphone. My, my oldest was right there. She would have done it no matter what. But yeah, you know, kids, kids are different. And a lot of them, it's scary to them. And I totally get that. I remember being scared to drive, but it was the key to freedom.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

And kids don't always see that as much anymore, partially because they are online so much.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

I think they're online and they like us a little bit more.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Yeah. And isn't that nice?

[Professor Jean Twenge]

But it's like a lower incentive to get a license and we're nicer and we're like, I'll take you.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Right. And that's, that's one of those things we have to start thinking about. Maybe we don't want it to drive them. So many places give them that incentive to have that independence.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

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[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Yeah, yeah. So just, you know, times and places where the phone doesn't belong. So family dinner. So this is something that parents have to think about, too, because I do think that adults are allowed a certain amount of what I call digital hypocrisy. You know, sometimes you're on call or there's some compelling reason, but if you don't want your kids to be on their phone during dinner, you shouldn't be either. It's just then you are. You can't always put it away right away because then you got notifications and stuff. Totally. But I like that, you know, that there's a social psychology term for this. It's called fubbing.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

You know, like getting to this place of figuring out how to stay authoritative when you kind of have the empathy, you have the clarity of what limits you're setting, but you're getting such challenging pushback. Can you, like, talk about that? Because I think it makes everybody feel like, oh, I'm not the only one who's getting this, and I can ma. I can live through it.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Yeah. You know, it's kind of teen's job to push back. That's what they're doing. You know, they're. They're pushing back on boundaries. So, you know, recognize that that might happen. I mean, one of. One of the things that was helpful to me, and I've talked to other parents who've said this too, is to just think about that argument of. But all of my friends are doing it. And what did your parents say? So think back to when you were a teenager. If you made that argument, your parents would have probably laughed in your face, honestly, and said, well, if everybody else was jumping off a cliff, yeah, would you? Right. And these days that's like, oh, mic drop. And I don't. I don't think it needs to be necessarily. The whole thing of you have to do what everybody else is doing. You take that out and think about it. No, you don't. Especially with technology. Yeah, it's spread really widely. It has become the social norm. But you don't have to take that all the way. You can find those compromised positions, like those basic phones where they can text but not do a whole lot else on that phone. That's just one example. But in general it doesn't have to be, oh, my kid's the only one and thus I have to give in.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

You don't, you don't. I think that's important to hear because that really worries people. And I think after, probably after the pandemic or during the pandemic, a lot of people made looser rules around screens because they were so rightfully worried about their kids having social interactions. And then I think we got like far away from what even the people who were paying close attention to it were like, oh, no, and now what? But we aren't encumbered with that bizarre time anymore. So what do you say to sort of adjusting the limits that you set? Like somebody's listening, they're like, whoops, I totally. Right?

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Can't put the genie back in the bottom, that type of argument, right? So I think it's really important to address that. You know, obviously it'd be great if we did everything right the first time, but we're parents, we're not going to do everything right the first time. It's a hard job. We're going to make mistakes. I made mistakes. I absolutely made mistakes. I mean, just one example, I was, we did so well with phones, but then with laptops, I wasn't really thinking as much about putting controls on that. And then I was like, wait, we need to have controls on that too, because that's becoming a problem now. So you can, you know, my 15 year old used to have a laptop without time limits on it. Now she's got a laptop with time limits on it. You know, put the genie back in the bottle. It can be done. He puts toothpaste back in the tube. So I think it does. It depends, of course, you know, on the situation. Let's say with a phone, if you have given your 12 year old a smartphone, my advice would be to say, I made a mistake. I need to get you a different type of phone and I recognize that's not gonna be fun for you, but we're gonna get through this together and I will get you a phone. But it's not gonna be a smartphone, it's gonna be a different type of phone, like a basic phone designed for kids that fortunately those look like a regular Android phone, but they don't have social media, they don't have the AI companions, they usually don't have the Internet browser. Right? So if you got a younger kid, you know, who's not ready for that that's what you should do. And if they, you know, have a total meltdown, okay, it is this or no fun at all.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

Right. I think it's all. I think it's okay to, like, really let that land. Like, it's going to be hard. It could cause a rupture that feels like it's too bad to fix. But actually, it's just a moment. Like all other moments, it's a resilience.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

And, you know, they will. They will adapt to it. It would be really, really unusual if that was, like, some kind of complete break. You know, they will get used to it. They will want to play ball with you again. They will want to sit and watch a movie with you again. It'll be. It'll be fine. In the vast majority of cases, it is going to be just fine. I'm thinking about one. One student who worked with me on some research, and it was a great group of kids, and I got to know them really well. I get to call them kids because I'm old now, right? So they're. They're in their 20s and they're start. Their kids.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

Still babies.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Yeah, exactly. So. And we. We had a. You had. We talked about that. And, you know, she said she had a total meltdown. You know, that her. That she actually had a phone. And then her. She. She was on it too much and her mom took it away and gave her a flip phone. And she talked about how mad she was and so on. And then she said she adjusted to it and now that she's extremely grateful that her mother did that, how do.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

You feel about saying something like, you know, if you're too afraid to sort of take it away completely, saying, like, I'm going to give it to you when, you know, I've decided that it works, like when you go to soccer or when you are going to a party and I want to get in touch with you, but it's like we're reducing the amount of time. It's not. I don't know what I'm saying, but you know what I mean? Like, you're getting it for this one hour a couple times a week, because.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Then you're gonna fight with them every single day instead of having one big fight at once. Yeah.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

Yeah, that's a really good point. They're the last ones left.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Look, you know, parents are in a really tough position these days because these technologies are so unregulated. So it's just spectacularly unfair that we have to do this. And it'd be better if we had more regulation, I absolutely advocate for that. But that doesn't mean we should give up. There are still things that we can do that can do a lot of good for our children. And you don't have to do absolutely everything and you don't have to do it 100% of the time. And you don't have to, you know, be perfect and not make mistakes. I love this aphorism. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Do the good that you can. And yeah, you're gonna mess up. I certainly did. But learn from those mistakes and move forward.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

Yeah, I think that that's a, an approach that's quite different than just being like, I guess that ship sailed. Oh, well, right.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

And I hear that all the time. And you know, and I get that. And I know this is difficult. I want to, I don't want to deny that at all. Yeah. But that's very defeatist. And I don't know, maybe, you know, so from one psychologist to another, I have a very internal locus of control. I do think that, you know, if your kid has a cold, you start wearing a mask so you don't get it. And maybe, yeah, sometimes you're gonna get it. Cause you got exposed before then. But put on the air filter downstairs, one of my kids is cold right now. Can you tell? Put on the air filter and then when you're same room, wear the mask and then maybe you won't get it.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

And it's the same basic idea of just keep going. Maybe you did make some mistakes, but you can dial some things back and then you can also just do your best going forward. Just don't, don't give up. It is too important.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

We could just end there. Or I just want to agree with you, a violent agreement that it feels almost like it's so hard to be a parent right now with technology and all of these challenges. And also when we keep saying that the outside world needs to sort of regulate this to the point where it won't be our burden. I think it actually takes away the major amount of influence we have with our kids.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Yeah.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

So, yeah, and it, it, you know.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Look, it would be better if they verified age and the minimum age for social media was raised until 16. It would take away that argument. But everybody else has it. Even with that argument. Really? Does everybody else have it? And do you really, really, absolutely need that to communicate with your friends? You don't. A 18 year old said this the other day. She said, look, if there's someone who will not communicate with you unless you're on a specific platform. They're not really your friend. Totally. I love that. I thought that was so true. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

Individuals on the show may have a.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Direct or indirect financial interest in products.

[Professor Jean Twenge]

Or services referred to in this episode.