The Huge Impact of Environmental Neuroscience: Effective Ways to Grow Attention and Cognition with Dr. Marc Berman

Summary

Raising Good Humans: The Huge Impact of Environmental Neuroscience with Dr. Marc Berman

Episode Release Date: August 8, 2025

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Introduction to Environmental Neuroscience

In this enlightening episode of Raising Good Humans, Dr. Aliza Pressman welcomes Dr. Marc Berman, the pioneer behind the field of environmental neuroscience. Dr. Berman delves into how our external physical environments, particularly natural settings, significantly influence our cognitive, physical, and social well-being.

Understanding Environmental Neuroscience

Dr. Berman defines environmental neuroscience as the intersection of environmental psychology and cognitive neuroscience. This field explores how different physical environments affect our brain function and behavior. He emphasizes that humans often underestimate the profound impact their surroundings have on their cognitive abilities and overall behavior.

Dr. Mark Berman [01:23]: "We have so much control over the physical environment that we often forget it can profoundly impact our behavior and brain functioning."

The Genesis of Environmental Neuroscience

Dr. Berman recounts the inception of his research journey, inspired by Professor Steve Kaplan's Attention Restoration Theory at the University of Michigan. This theory posits that interacting with natural environments can restore our ability to focus and direct attention.

Dr. Mark Berman [02:44]: "At the time, it seemed like the only way to really improve attention might be through pharmacological intervention or rigorous brain training exercises."

Groundbreaking Studies and Findings

To test the theory, Dr. Berman and his team conducted rigorous studies comparing the effects of walks in nature versus urban environments on attention and memory. Their findings were compelling:

• Nature Walks: Participants showed a 20% improvement in attention and memory immediately after a 50-minute walk in a natural setting.
• Urban Walks: No significant cognitive improvements were observed.

Moreover, even shorter interactions with nature, such as viewing nature photographs for 10 minutes, yielded measurable benefits, albeit slightly less pronounced than actual nature exposure.

Dr. Mark Berman [05:05]: "People improved in their memory and attention by about 20% after the walk in nature, but didn't really show any significant improvement after walking in the urban environment."

Practical Applications for Daily Life

Dr. Berman offers versatile strategies for integrating nature into daily routines, especially for parents who may find it challenging to access natural settings regularly:

1. Nature Walks: Aim for at least 20 minutes in a natural environment.
2. Nature Imagery: Incorporate nature photographs or artwork with fractal patterns into living and workspaces.
3. Indoor Plants: Even artificial plants can mimic natural patterns and provide cognitive benefits.
4. Nature Sounds: Listening to recordings of nature can supplement visual exposure.
5. Vacation Choices: Opt for vacations in natural settings rather than urban destinations to maximize cognitive restoration.

Dr. Mark Berman [06:32]: "If you can't get out to the park, bring plants into your home, even if they're fake plants. They mimic the patterns of nature and can be beneficial."

Maximizing the Benefits of Nature Exposure

The timing and method of nature exposure are crucial for reaping maximum benefits:

• Duration: While a 50-minute walk showed significant benefits, shorter durations like 15-20 minutes can still be effective.
• Consistency: Aiming for about two hours of nature exposure weekly is recommended for sustained cognitive benefits.
• Attention Restoration: Nature serves as a restorative break, especially during times of directed attention fatigue, such as post-lunch hours when focus wanes.

Dr. Mark Berman [12:53]: "When you can't focus, you're having maybe you're a little bit irritable. That's a good time to try to take the break in nature."

Impact on Parents and Children

Nature interactions offer substantial benefits for both parents and children. Even if children initially resist nature activities, the cognitive improvements are evident:

• Children: Enhanced attention, better self-control, and increased impulse control.
• Parents: Improved focus and reduced irritation, fostering a more harmonious family environment.

Notably, Dr. Berman highlights that even if the nature experience isn’t enjoyable, the cognitive benefits persist.

Dr. Mark Berman [19:01]: "Even if there's pushback and it's uncomfortable, the cognitive benefits for the children remain."

Nature in Built Environments

Beyond personal practices, integrating nature into public and communal spaces is essential. Dr. Berman envisions a "nature revolution" where cities incorporate more green spaces, walkable areas, and biophilic design elements:

• Biophilic Design: Incorporating natural patterns and elements into architecture and urban planning.
• Connected Parks: Ensuring parks are accessible and interconnected to facilitate regular nature interactions.
• School Integration: Allocating substantial time for children to engage with nature during school hours.

Dr. Mark Berman [30:59]: "We need to start being creative, like having huge hanging green walls on skyscrapers, bringing more nature into our built environments."

Clutter, Organization, and Cognitive Function

Environmental neuroscience also examines how the organization of our spaces affects cognition:

• Organization vs. Creativity: A clean workspace can enhance altruistic behaviors, while a bit of mess can foster creativity.
• Optimal Nature Integration: Approximately 10-20% of a space can be dedicated to nature (plants or nature-inspired designs) without causing clutter.

Dr. Mark Berman [46:38]: "If your space is more than 20% filled with nature elements, it might start to feel cluttered and counterproductive."

Broader Implications and Future Directions

Dr. Berman emphasizes that access to nature should be considered a necessity rather than a luxury. He advocates for policy changes and urban planning that prioritize natural environments to enhance public cognitive health and well-being.

Dr. Mark Berman [49:11]: "It's not exactly a luxury. We can't be our best functioning humans without having these interactions with nature."

Conclusion and Takeaways

This episode underscores the critical role that natural environments play in enhancing cognitive functions like attention and memory. Dr. Berman provides actionable insights for integrating nature into daily life, emphasizing that even minimal interactions can yield significant benefits. For parents striving to foster optimal cognitive development in their children, incorporating nature is not just beneficial but essential.

Dr. Aliza Pressman [49:15]: "Thank you so much. This is so fascinating. I have changes that I'm going to make today."

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Key Quotes:

• Dr. Mark Berman [01:23]: "We have so much control over the physical environment that we often forget it can profoundly impact our behavior and brain functioning."
• Dr. Mark Berman [05:05]: "People improved in their memory and attention by about 20% after the walk in nature..."
• Dr. Mark Berman [12:53]: "When you can't focus, ... that's a good time to try to take the break in nature."
• Dr. Mark Berman [19:01]: "Even if there's pushback and it's uncomfortable, the cognitive benefits for the children remain."
• Dr. Mark Berman [30:59]: "We need to start being creative, like having huge hanging green walls on skyscrapers..."
• Dr. Mark Berman [49:11]: "It's not exactly a luxury. We can't be our best functioning humans without having these interactions with nature."

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By understanding and applying the principles of environmental neuroscience, parents and individuals can create environments that not only nurture children’s development but also enhance their own cognitive and emotional well-being.

Transcript

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

The following podcast is a Dear Media production. Welcome to Raising Good humans podcast. I'm Dr. Aliza Pressman and today we are talking about nature and the mind, the science of how nature improves cognitive, physical and social well being. I have Dr. Mark Berman, who created the entire field of environmental neuroscience. He uses science to show that spending time in natural environments can ultimately boost.

[Mark Berman]

Our ability to direct attention.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

It's actually kind of staggering, a 20% improvement in attention related abilities from integrating nature into your day to day. So how that is practically applied is a big part of this conversation and solutions beyond just taking a beautiful hike, because not all of us can do that every day. In fact, I was really surprised and delighted to hear that though it is not going to have as much of an impact. Even looking at beautiful pictures of nature and having plants in your house can have an impact on your brain. We've never talked about on Raising Good Humans podcast. What is environmental neuroscience and how does it help us?

[Dr. Mark Berman]

So environmental neuroscience is a field that sort of combines environmental psychology and cognitive neuroscience and really focuses on how the external physical environment can actually impact brain and behavior. And I think a lot of us sort of underestimate how powerful the physical environment can be on our behavior and on our brain functioning. You know, as humans, we have so much control over the physical environment that I think we often kind of forget that the physical environment actually can have a very profound impact on our behavior. So in environmental neuroscience, we're really trying to understand how different physical environments impact brain and behavior, what aspects of the physical environment impact brain and behavior. And then, you know, kind of the goal is then to use that information to actually design physical environments that might help people to improve their attention, improve their memory, maybe help people to be more cooperative and, you know, they'll be very relevant to this podcast. How to help kids, you know, have higher well being and how to help parents to be. To be better parents.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

So what got to the heart of this inquiry? Like what? How did we start with this?

[Dr. Mark Berman]

So actually it started when I took a class from Professor Steve Kaplan at the University of Michigan. And at the time I was a cognitive neuroscientist and also an engineer. And I took this course with Steve Kaplan and he introduced this idea called attention restoration theory that people could restore their attention and their ability to focus by interacting with natural environments like parks and green spaces. And I thought that was just really, really interesting because at the time it seemed like the only way to really improve attention might be to have some kind of pharmacological intervention. Or, you know, maybe you could train your brain doing these really hard exercises. Or some people might even say, you know what, you can't really train attention and memory. You're kind of born with your capabilities and it can't be trained. And I just thought this idea was really, really fascinating. And so I teamed up with Steve Kaplan and one of my other advisors, John Janitis, who was a very eminent cognitive neuroscientist. And we designed some very rigorous studies to test this idea. Can taking a brief walk in nature actually improve our ability to focus? And, you know, also another interesting element, too is that some people had ideas that, yeah, maybe interacting with nature could be beneficial for our memory and attention. But they really just asked people, you know, after you went for this walk in nature, did you feel like your memory and attention were improved? And people say, yes, I feel great. It was such a nice walk in nature, but it was very subjective. And, you know, I'm not against subjective results, but I think, you know, we need to know, does it actually improve people's attention? And that's what really, what we really set out to do is we. We gave people objective measures of their memory attention, and then that had them walk in nature versus walking in a more urban environment and brought them back to the lab to look for changes in their memory and attention. And we found that people improved in their memory and attention by about 20% after the walk in nature, but didn't really show any significant improvement after the walk in the urban environment.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Wow. And how long does the walk in nature need to happen in order to show improvements?

[Dr. Mark Berman]

Yeah, it's a really good question. So when we tested it, we had people walk for 50 minutes. So that's 5, 0. But other people have found effects with shorter interactions, like 20 minutes or 15 minutes. We've even found that just looking at nature pictures for about 10 minutes can have some similar benefits. It's not quite as good as the real thing, but you can get. You can get benefits with. With even briefer interactions with nature. And also the kind of nature. You know, we're not saying you have to go out to a national park to get these benefits. We're saying, and what we tested is basically your local park, where you feel safe and kind of let your mind go and just interact with nature, we find can be really, really helpful for people's memory and attention.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Okay, so how, like, I'm just thinking in the mind of a parent who's going for a walk with their child or who can't go for a walk with their child in a natural setting. But they do want to get some daily interaction with nature to occur. What are the range of ways that we can be exposed to nature? You mentioned pictures of, of things like. Would, would that be pictures of national forests or pictures of oceans or talk. Talk us through some of the practical applications.

[Dr. Mark Berman]

Yeah, so the, the kind of pictures that we found through people's attention and memory were nice natural pictures. So scenes by a lake or a forest, even, maybe like an ocean, a beach even. Some of our photographs included things like deserts or mountainscapes. So it's, it's important, we think that the nature have a lot of natural patterns. So, so one thing, if we want to kind of dig in a little bit more, one of the reasons why we think interacting with nature is beneficial is that a lot of natural stimulation has what's called fractalness. So to kind of tell you what fractalness kind of means is if you imagine a snowflake, a snowflake has a characteristic shape. And if we put that snowflake under a microscope and zoomed in, you'd also see kind of the same shape. And if you zoom in even more, you can see the same shape. So the snowflake, it doesn't matter at what sort of spatial scale you look at. The snowflake kind of has the same characteristic shape. And it turns out that in nature, nature is filled with stimulation that has this fractal structure, A tree that has a trunk and then it branches out into other branches and then branch out into smaller branches that then branch out into leaves. And the leaves have the veins that branch out that also has this fractal structure. And we think that our brains process this fractal structure sort of more easily or more fluently than our brains process more urban or built structure that doesn't have the same fractal element. And that's kind of more with the straight lines and 90 degree angles. So we think if the natural stimulation has these kind of fractal patterns, it's going to be beneficial to us. And even, you know, we haven't really tested this, but people, for example, like artwork that has fractal structure. And, you know, Jackson Pollock had a lot of his paintings, had this fractal structure to it. So some of this might even supersede actual nature. Maybe if you had carpeting or things on your wall that had these kind of fractal patterns, maybe that would also produce some of these benefits. But we, we definitely think, okay, if you can't get out to the park bring plants into your home, even if they're fake plants. I have fake plants in my office. That also mimics the patterns of nature. You might consider, even if you're picking out carpeting or furnishings, you might want to have them kind of mimic the patterns of nature. We think that can also be somewhat beneficial. So a lot of these kind of artificial nature can also produce benefits. It seems like nothing is quite as good as the real thing. So if you don't have easy access to nature, you can get some of these effects with simulated nature. So putting nature photographs around, even looking at nature pictures on your computer, listening to nature sounds, that can give you benefits. But you might also, for your next vacation, you might want to think, oh, maybe instead of going to more urban environment, maybe I want to actually go to a more natural environment.

[Mark Berman]

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[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Does this kind of intervention take effect?

[Dr. Mark Berman]

So when we test people, we test them right after the intervention. So it works pretty immediately. The one thing that we're not sure about is how long lasting are the effects. So I don't know a 50 minute walk in nature. We know that it improved memory and attention by about 20% right after the walk. But a really important question that we don't really know yet is how long would those effects persist? There's been some work by other people that have suggested that a good dose of nature that you'd want to get is about two hours a week would be something that you'd want to shoot for. I would probably say too, you know, the more the better. But we all are under a time crunch. I would also suggest too that when you take the nature break might be important. So, for example, we talk about this idea that nature improves our directed attention, which is our ability to pick what we're going to attend to. And we think that that kind of attention is fatigable or depletable. So we've all had that sensation after a long workday at around three or four o'clock in the afternoon where it's really hard to focus and you might start mind wandering or daydreaming. We would say there you probably are in a directed attention fatigue state. That's a good time to take a break in nature. That's not a good time to scroll through social media or surf the web or something like that. We don't think those activities are actually restorative or restful. We think actually those activities are actually fatiguing or depleting so we think, hey, when you can't focus, you're having maybe you're a little bit irritable. That's a good time to try to take the break in nature. That also might be a good time to get your kids to take a break in nature. If they start showing a lot of signs of inattention, not listening, they're acting out, and it's not nighttime when, you know, they need to go to bed. If it's during the day, we would recommend that might be a really good time to try to get your kids to go out and interact with nature. We found that if you actually truly do want to increase your focus and your attention in yourself or in your kids, going in nature is really, really beneficial. So there have been studies that looked at kids with ADHD and going for a 20 minute walk in nature was really beneficial, almost like a dose of Ritalin. And you can imagine that, you know, parent, parent. I'm a parent too. I've got four kids. It's tiring, it's exhausting, and it's easy to get irritated. And so I'm careful that, you know, when I feel like I'm starting to get irritated and I'm losing my patience, that's when I try to take a walk in nature. And while I love to take my kids out in nature, I don't view that as my break. That's their break. So I make sure that when I go for my walk in nature, I get to do it alone. I don't look at my cell phone. I even don't put in earbuds. I want to hear all the sounds of nature. I want to be really, really engaged with nature. I want to smell the nature. I want to see all of the nature. I try to leave the devices at home and even go by myself where I can just benefit from the restorative effects of nature.

[Mark Berman]

When you go for a walk out.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

In nature and you're trying to get some fresh air and see some beautiful things, do we minimize the benefits when we have earbuds in and we're kind of, we're there, but we're listening to a podcast or music?

[Dr. Mark Berman]

Yeah, definitely. People have found that if you have your cell phone and you're like texting or something, there's that's going to ruin the effects. And I would say in a similar way, I think you want to go without earbuds in, without music, without listening to a podcast, because listening to a podcast is going to take attention and we want all of your attention to Be kind of directed to the environment, that you're taking in all that stimulation from the environment. Another thing that I think is important to mention too is that a lot of people think, oh, well, you know, these nature walks are working because it's just pleasant to be in nature and just makes me feel good and that's why I get the benefit. And yes, a lot of people do like nature and people have their. We've shown that you can improve your mood walking in nature and improve your cognitive performance. But we don't often find a correlation between improvement in mood and the cognitive improvement. So it's not like the people that were showing the bigger cognitive improvements were the ones who are also showing the biggest mood benefit. And an even stronger demonstration that we don't think it's mood driven is that when we did our initial studies, we had some participants walk in June when It was like 80 degrees Fahrenheit and people really loved the walk and they said, mark, I can't believe you're paying me to go for a walk in nature that was so enjoyable. They showed really healthy mood benefits and really healthy cognitive benefits. But we also had some participants walk in January when It was like 25 degrees Fahrenheit out and participants said, mark, I was freezing my butt off out there. I did not like that walk. But incredibly, the people that walked in January showed the same cognitive improvement, so the same memory and attention benefit as the people that walked in June. So you don't even have to enjoy the nature interaction to get these cognitive benefits, which I think is really, really important. So if it's a cloudy day, if it's a little bit rainy, you can still get a lot of these benefits. It's not about feeling good per se. It's about being in nature and letting this nature stimulation kind of restore brain processing.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Okay, so are you saying that. Let's say it's drizzling out and I've said to my teenagers, one of our must dos today is that we're going for a 20 minute walk out in nature, but the weather is kind of crappy and they're a little bit annoyed about doing it. Are you saying that if I force them out and we do it, by the end of that there's still going to be cognitive benefits and attention benefits.

[Dr. Mark Berman]

Exactly. So we still say there's going to be cognitive benefits. Yes. Now there's probably some threshold. So sometimes I have, you know, people that are a little bit cheeky with me and they say, well, Mark, what about a wildfire or if you're being chased by a bear. And I'd say, of course that's not going to be restorative, that's going to be really dangerous. You're going to need a lot of directed attention there. It has to be, you have to be safe and you have to be, you know, if I would have sent people out in the winter with no shoes, you know, or they're freezing, that wouldn't work. But if they're, if you're wearing the right gear, you're, even if you don't love the walk in nature, you're still going to get the cognitive benefits. And I often hear people say too, well, I'm more of a city person, I don't really like nature. And even for people like that, we find that interactions with nature are beneficial to their cognitive functioning. And this is really important too, because we find that kids often don't prefer nature. So we've done studies with kids starting at age 4 and 5, all the way to age 11. And we show them on a computer screen different pictures and have them pick, you know, which picture do you like the best. And four and five year olds tend to prefer urban environments compared to nature. And it's only as they get older do they start liking nature more. And in fact, it's kind of interesting too if you look at parents preferences and kids preferences. So parents preferences for nature versus their kids, they're not really correlated when kids are 4 and 5. But as the kids get older, their preferences start to mirror their parents. So we shouldn't assume that kids are just automatically going to like nature and that it's kind of a bit like vegetables, that, yeah, you might not like it, but it's good for you. And so even those four and five year olds who didn't like the nature pictures, we also had parental reports of their attention. And if they had more nature around their home or their school, or if they did more nature activities, the parents reported that those kids had better attention. So even though they didn't like nature per se, it was still good for their attention.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

So basically, as long as it's not compromising health safety or, you know, like really compromising the relationship. It sounds like this is one of those, it's worth forcing so long as certain fundamentals are a given, like safety and, you know, not causing World War III in your house.

[Dr. Mark Berman]

That's right. I, I would say that. And also too, I think the more you get your kids to interact with nature, the more they're going to like it. You know, we think this is a really fundamental aspect, you know, of our human nature that, you know, you know, we evolved in nature. Our brains are sort of tuned to a lot of nature stimulation. In our modern times, we're becoming more divorced from nature and I think that's hurting us. And we need to kind of get back and reconnect with nature because we're seeing all of these mental health benefits and there's also lots of physical health benefits to nature as well.

[Mark Berman]

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[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Apart from walking in nature, what are some of the other things that we can do to have these positive interactions with nature? I want to get really specific because I think people have to be really creative sometimes about how to include nature in their day to day life. And because it has such good benefits for children's development and for our own mental health, mental and cognitive health, which is very cool. What are the other ways we can look at this apart from a walk in nature?

[Dr. Mark Berman]

Right. So a lot of people don't have control of this either. But the view out of your window can matter. So if you have a view of nature out of your window, that can be beneficial. And there was actually this incredible study by Roger ulrich in the 1980s where he looked at a hospital corridor in Philadelphia and the hospital rooms had different views out of the room. And some of the rooms had a view of modest nature, like some trees or some bushes. And other rooms on that same hospital corridor had like a view of a brick wall. And what Roger was interested in looking at was patients recovery from gallbladder surgery. And it turns out the patients that had the view of nature out of their hospital room recovered from gallbladder surgery a day earlier and used less pain medication than the patients who had the rooms with the brick wall. And what's interesting too is that you might be thinking, well, maybe wealthier people or healthier people or younger people got the views of nature. No, these patients are just randomly assigned to the rooms, like whatever room is available. So that's pretty amazing.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

That's incredible.

[Dr. Mark Berman]

Yeah. And it, it's interesting too that you know, when you think about, okay, well what are the mechanisms? Why is having nature out of your window being beneficial? It's not likely due to air quality. I don't think the people that had the view of nature Were exercising more. They recovered from welder surgery. There's something about the aesthetic of nature. The fractalness, the shapes, the curved edge structure, the colors, that somehow when our brains process that stimulation, it's not only good for mental health, but it's also good for physical health.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

I'm sure. Also you're more likely to look out the window.

[Dr. Mark Berman]

Yes, that's probably true too. But I don't think it's necessarily intentional. Like, I'm sure if we asked those patients.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Right.

[Dr. Mark Berman]

They didn't. They didn't say that. And in fact, there's these other studies that are really interesting too. Public housing projects in Chicago where families are just randomly assigned to different public housing apartments. And some have views of modest nature, again, trees and shrubs, and others don't, you know, looking at walls or asphalt. And when you look at the kids, the kids that had. That live in the apartments that had the modest view of nature, they have better attention, better self control, and the adults have lower aggression, and there's less reported crimes. And again, too, people were not even really aware of what view they had out of their window, but it seemed to have these really significant impacts on their behavior. So. So again, you know, a lot of us don't have a lot of control about what's out of our view, but we can control more what's inside of our homes and workplaces. So again, I would suggest bringing plants in, even if they're fake plants. Again, we even find that just having the shapes of nature, the fractalness, that could be beneficial. So trying, you know, some people call this biophilic design, mimicking the patterns of nature in design. I think that's something that we're sort of advocating, is that we want to be mimicking these patterns of nature in all of our built environments, especially because, as you said, a lot of us don't have easy access to nature.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

It's really heartening that you don't need fresh plants, that you don't need the perfect, ideal version of all of this, but you need to have. You need to have exposure. Yeah, that's what it sounds like.

[Dr. Mark Berman]

Right. But I guess I. The only thing I want to say too is that we do find that the real thing is better, the biggest impact. Right. So. And you know, I wouldn't want to reduce this to like a pill or something, you know, but it's good to know that we have this other thing because a lot of us don't have a lot of access to nature readily available. So this is, you know, one Thing that I kind of write about in the book where I kind of want us to start sort of like a nature revolution where I think a lot of people think that having nature nearby is an amenity but not a necessity. Oh, it'd be nice if we could afford it, but it's not really super important. And I think what we're trying to say is, no, it's really important. It's essential that we can't be our best functioning humans without having these interactions with nature. And we need to take that really, really seriously in the built environment that we live in.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

So walk us through your ideal built environment in this nature revolution. Because I think for a lot of, particularly a lot of people raising kids, this is the time that we're really thinking about, like, how am I best setting up the environment. And we think about the environment with school, we think about the environment with food, we think about the environment with the, you know, our, our behavior.

[Dr. Mark Berman]

Yes.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Don't know that people are being as intentional or thinking about it, the massive impact that nature can have. So tell us your sort of dream version of the nature revolution.

[Dr. Mark Berman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's great. And also too, I would say, even though I think a lot of people don't consciously think about it, if you look at real estate prices, people kind of know it. So people pay a premium to be near water, to be near nature. So I think there's this kind of implicit knowledge about it, but it's not so explicit. So, so if we're thinking about my, my dream, you know, nature's environment, I, you know, there are some existing environments that are kind of like this. I don't know if you've ever been to Stockholm, Sweden, but it's a city that really incorporates nature in it in a very sort of symbiotic way. There's lots of parks integrated into the built environment. The car traffic is more minimal. So that's another thing that I worry about too, is that especially in North America, our cities and our built spaces are so car centric, it kind of ruins a lot of the green space that's around. So I, I tell this one story in the book where in Chicago on the south side, Chicago, we have Jackson Park, Washington park, in the Midway Plaisance. So these three massive parks, they were designed by Frederick Law Olmsted, the same landscape architect that designed Central Park. And it's bigger, it's bigger than Central Park. Those three parks together are bigger than Central park. And they're connected. Well, one day I was taking my kids on A walk through the circle Garden in Jackson park and literally a hubcap from a car passing by flew off and started spinning around in front of us. And I was just thinking, this is such a shame, this is such a beautiful natural spot. But it's so noisy from car traffic and you have to use so much attention to make sure you're not getting hit by a car and to filter out the car noise. It's kind of limiting how impactful the nature can be. So it's not enough just to have the nature there. It also has to be sort of protected from the car traffic and be pedestrian friendly. So in my naturalized city, the environment is also more walkable and you're walking through nature to get from place to place. We have, we increase the tree canopy so we have more trees on the street. The trees are more tree lined. We have parks that are closer to all of our homes. Maybe they're also more connected so you can go park to park. We put more nature around our schools, we put nature into our schools, we put nature into our homes. We have more parks in our cities. Maybe we start being creative too, like skyscrapers. Maybe we have these huge hanging green walls like imagine plants growing down the sides of our of our buildings. Right. And the other thing that I think we have to do too is we have to think about designing our day. So right now, you know, and this is happening with my kids in school, they're trying to limit recess time or free time so there's more time for instruction. And I worry that that's counterproductive. So in my dream, you know, nature revolution school, maybe it's six hours of instruction and two hours kids are out in nature. And maybe kids will learn more, even though it's kind of counterintuitive that it'd be less instruction. But if they're more ready to learn because their brains are ready to take an information, maybe they actually learn more, you know, from six hours of instruction with two hours of nature break versus just eight hours of instruction.

[Mark Berman]

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[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Think about all of the ways this sort of is intuitive in the sense like movies about great teachers. The teacher always has a moment where he's like, no one's learning anything. Let's get outside and walk through nature. I'm just like picturing dead Poet society.

[Mark Berman]

Yes, but I do think we know.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

When you're feeling upset, go take a walk. Like I, I do think that there's ways that we associate nature with Mental well being for sure. I think there are ways we didn't realize that nature was helping cognition. And I, and I, I think there's something really nice about knowing that what probably is benefiting mental health and that's why you might have initially been motivated to do it. Or maybe it's the opposite. Maybe we're thinking so much about, you know, making sure that our kids learn that we would think this is taking away from learning. And I just like the idea of people knowing, hey, you don't have to choose between what benefits are coming your way. This is going to be beneficial for a multiple, for multiple reasons. Right brain?

[Dr. Mark Berman]

Right. And I guess I would say too that, you know, sometimes our intuitions are wrong. And also too, I think, you know, the, the fact that you don't have to like the nature and you still get the benefit. So that I think is, is really, really interesting too.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

And I, I mean, I'm glad we talked about at the beginning just because you could see people trying to get their, their families out the door and giving up because there's no interest.

[Dr. Mark Berman]

Right. Yeah. Well, and I've had, I mean, I've had situations too where literally it took me 45 minutes to get the kids to go out. You know, they were so resistant and they were whining and you know, maybe we just even went around the block and it took forever. But it still was helpful to them, it was still beneficial. Now it wasn't beneficial to me, I had to go back myself, but it was beneficial for them. And so I think it's, it's, it's okay if it's a little bit uncomfortable. It's okay if people are a little bit resistant because we're saying at least for the cognitive benefits, it's not about liking it. Now if you're trying to get your kids into a great mood, you know, I don't know. But, but we think actually the attention and mood, you know, even though we don't think you're getting these attention benefits because of mood, when your kids have more attention, we think that's tied to lots of things. So attention is not just about doing well in school. It's also about being more cooperative and being more patient and having more impulse control.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mark Berman]

And you know, being more goal directed. So it has all these kinds of, kinds of benefits. And when we did, we actually did a study with participants who are suffering from depression and we thought, oh, well, if you send them on a walk alone in nature, maybe that's going to be worse for depression because it's just going to be out there ruminating about their problems. And we actually found the effects were stronger for participants with depression. And we think that's because, you know, when you're depressed, you're constantly ruminating about negative thoughts and feelings over and over again, and it's very hard to concentrate. But if you can go out in nature and if that replenishes your ability to concentrate, then you might actually have the resources to kind of deal with the issues that are bothering you.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

And I, I think even when there is pushback, going outside or experiencing some kind of nature moment, I think we do just observationally. See, even when there's pushback, once you give up and just realize this is what's happening, even if there isn't buy in, everybody feels better on arriving back home. Like, no one. I don't typically. I can't think of an example, even just personally, where we've gone for that walk or gone for that hike, and then everybody's mad at me afterwards.

[Dr. Mark Berman]

Right, right.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

And when you get used to something, I mean, that's why city kids just aren't as into nature. So if you have city kids, this might be too specific. Cause I'm thinking of New York City. But I think all cities, you have this experience where you're in an urban setting. Let's say you don't even have time to walk to the park, you're in an urban setting, you're walking the dog. But there's, you know, a little patch of flowers is that is stopping and looking at that little patch of flowers igniting the impact of nature. Like, does that count?

[Dr. Mark Berman]

Yeah, I think that. I think that counts. You know, again, the. The more the better. Right? It's probably. It's going to be what, you know, Rachel Kaplan would call sort of like a micro dose of nature. But I think it could still be beneficial. It gets kind of interesting, too, that even certain kinds of architecture might have benefits. So if you imagine like a gaudy building in Barcelona with all the curved edge structure, we find that people like that kind of architecture more and they actually see nature in the architect, in the architecture, even if they're not consciously aware of it. And so we also think, you know, for example, like, you know, maybe walking in certain neighborhoods of New York that have beautiful architecture, that are quiet, maybe you could get some of the same benefits. And, you know, we think about that too in, in Chicago, that there are some neighborhoods that have this really great architecture. There's not as much car traffic. We think maybe you can get some benefits there. Just seeing those. Those patterns Again, I wouldn't say that we can use that to replace nature, but I think it's something that could supplement.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Okay, so I don't want to leave this conversation without getting at sort of environment in general, because I think this architecture piece touches on that. Environmental neuroscience has to include other kinds of environmental input, right?

[Dr. Mark Berman]

Yes. Yes.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

So in addition to nature.

[Dr. Mark Berman]

Yeah.

[Mark Berman]

What do we need to know?

[Dr. Mark Berman]

Yeah, so it's. I mean, it's a great question. And sometimes people will say to me, oh, Mark, okay, so we all should move out of our cities and go live in more rural areas. And I say, no, no, no, no, no. That's not what I'm saying at all. Cities are great. And we have other research to show that in bigger cities, there's actually lower rates of depression than there are in smaller cities. And one of the reasons why we. We think we find that is that in larger cities, your social networks tend to be larger, so you have more friends and acquaintances. And even if a lot of them might be kind of more superficial acquaintances, we find that that can be protective against depression. In other studies, we find that larger cities actually have lower racial biases. So people tend to be less racially biased in bigger cities. And again, we think that's because you have a larger social network, and so you're bumping into and needing more people that are different from you. And on average, those social interactions are positive, and that actually lowers biases. So we think cities are great. And other people have shown. So my colleague Luis Bencort has shown that bigger cities have more innovation and more creativity, and there's more wealth. So there's. And they're more efficient. You need less gas stations per person in a bigger city. So cities are great. And I think what we're trying to say here, too, is, okay, can we naturize our cities more? Can we bring more nature into our cities? Because our cities were not designed to make people better parents or to make kids have better attention. They were really designed to, like, house people efficiently and move goods efficiently. So if we take this holistic environmental neuroscience perspective, we say, look, let's do more. Let's. We can. We know more things about the environment that we can change. So let's keep all these good elements of cities, but let's try to make them quieter. Let's get more nature in there. Let's try to reduce the air pollution, let's reduce the other toxins. Let's make them more walkable. So I think that's you know, if we're taking the bigger picture, more than just nature, there are these other elements that. That we can do to improve our environment.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

And lastly, from a visual perspective, setting up your environment, like, how much does clutter. And sort of just like the wear and tear of having lots of kids.

[Dr. Mark Berman]

Yes.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Or any kids around. Like, how much of that should we pay attention to in terms of how our brains are paying attention and all of that? And how much of that matters? Because some people pay attention to that because they like the aesthetic of it, like, being more tolerable.

[Dr. Mark Berman]

Right.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

But does it have an actual impact beyond that?

[Dr. Mark Berman]

Yeah. So. And this is pretty personal to me because I'm not the most organized person. I have a pretty messy desk. There is some interesting work by Kathleen Vose that showed that she did a study where she had people come into a lab and be at a clean desk versus a messy desk. If in her study, if you were at the clean desk, you were more likely to give to charity, so maybe you'd be more altruistic. But people were more creative with the messy desk. So there were pros and cons.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Okay.

[Dr. Mark Berman]

I think if. If the mess is so big that it's, like, debilitating that you can't walk through the office or you can't find anything, that's going to be problematic. You know, with the kids. Yeah. They. They mess up our spaces. I. I do definitely think there's benefits to having a more organized space. And there's a lot of personal differences in terms of how much nature to bring into your space. People have found that maybe about 10 to 20% of your space being nature, but if it gets more than that, it starts to look really cluttered. So it might be too much for plants all around. Right. It might be too much. So you don't. I would say you don't need to have your com. Your whole space completely filled with plants, but you'd want to bring in some plants, maybe enough to, like, cover 10 to 15 to 20% of your space, but not. Not more than that. Just like, too. You wouldn't want to go on a nature hike where you had to use a machete to, like, go through. You know, you want to be going a place that's got a nice trail that's not so difficult to traverse.

[Mark Berman]

So it sounds like we can all.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Add a plant or flowers, maybe a beautiful landscape and a nice walk every day.

[Dr. Mark Berman]

Yes, exactly.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

And that can actually impact our attention skills.

[Dr. Mark Berman]

Yes. And I think we want to then too, we want to encourage our schools to do similar things and our offices to do similar things. And then I think, I think we need to be a little bit more demanding that the nature is not just an amenity. So if you're living somewhere and you say, wow, I don't have easy access to nature, I think that's something where we want to talk to our politicians and city planners and say, hey, that's a, that's a real problem.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

It's not, it's not the luxury that.

[Dr. Mark Berman]

We'Ve, it's not exactly. It's not a luxury. It's a necessity.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Thank you so much. This is so fascinating. I have changes that I'm going to make today.

[Dr. Mark Berman]

Great. Thanks so much for having me on the podcast.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

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