← Raising Good Humans
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- [00:01]
A
The following podcast is a Dear Media Production. Those are great tools and they're really concrete. And I think we just need to keep getting comfortable with the positive discomfort of the moments when we're growing ourselves and our kids in these very challenging scenarios.
- [00:20]
B
Yep. And I love that that you're saying that it's not just the positive discomfort for the child, it's also positive discomfort for the parents.
- [00:35]
A
Welcome to Raising good humans. I'm Dr. Aliza Pressman and I'm so excited about this episode because last week I had a conversation with Tom Boyce. Dr. Tom Boyce is the one who speaks so beautifully and has done such seminal research on temperament, talking about orchids and dandelions. But if you listen to that episode and you thought, I have an orchid kid, this episode is for you because we're talking about those big reactors, particularly younger ones. And now I'm talking with Claire Lerner about the practical strategies for parenting these highly sensitive orchid children. These strategies are what you need to translate the research into your everyday parenting. So we are not going to talk about the theories. We're just diving into exact scenarios, how to go through them with so much compassion that this is just harder. It is harder. And it's important to say that so that you don't think that it's you. And now I want to introduce you to Claire Lerner and, and you can pre order her book, Big Reactors Practical Strategies for Parenting Highly Sensitive Children. But let's dive into it so that in these case descriptions you can find similar experiences that other parents have had and the solutions and strategies that will help. I want to have a really practical conversation, especially because we've actually had quite a few episodes on highly sensitive kids and highly reactive kids and orchid kids and all the different ways of saying this, this. But what I think people are really struggling with is, okay, I get myself to the understanding of the different kinds of levels of reactivity that certain people have. And I, I'm grasping that I might have a more highly sensitive child. But. But I'm also hearing that in order to help those children thrive, they need sensitive caregiving. And that sensitive caregiving is getting mistranslated so often. So what I want to have today here is this gift for parents to give these concrete case studies of your experiences that are so relevant to so many families, where we hear these descriptions of people who come into your office and how they've thought they were supposed to manage these situations and how really helping them reconsider that and shift has changed the game for them. And so that's what I really want to focus on because I think it will help people tremendously to kind of take everything from page to stage and think about like, okay, we're going to take this in real life, practical contexts. So what happens when someone comes in and they've been inundated with this sense that they should be doing something that isn't working for them and is feeling like they're even more disconnected and things are getting even more off the rails. Tell. Talk us through that.
- [03:59]
B
So, you know, there, there are so many iterations of that, you know, like in the weeds, struggles parents are having where their instinct is that the child needs some clear limit or boundary, that the lack of it is causing a lot of chaos in the family. But then they have these voices in their head that says, well, if you create a boundary or take a break when you yourself as the parent is also getting really triggered some somehow that is abandonment, neglectful, rejecting of the child's feelings. And so they're, they're stuck in this vortex of reactivity because that's unfortunately like what it means when they don't feel comfortable setting the boundary. Let's just say it's, you know, going to bed and you have a family where what the parent really wants and needs is, is separation. They need their space. They've amazing parents who have given it all and they need to be able to tune out, refuel, meet their own need, spend some quality time with their partner, have a glass of wine and watch, you know, the latest episode of Severance or whatever you know, their poison is. And yet they feel that when their child saying, oh, but mommy, I have more things to talk about or I have more questions to ask you, or I haven't had enough time with you, they get triggered into feeling that they're rejecting their child. That's the message they've gotten. And so they stay and stay and stay, and then they flip their own lids, right? Then they're done.
- [05:55]
A
And then they undermine their own sensitivity.
- [05:58]
B
Right, exactly. And they're just. Then they're angry, they're frustrated, and they get into that loop that you and I have talked about a lot about trying to get the child to get with the program instead of feeling comfortable setting the limit and saying, I know, sweetie. It never is going to feel like enough time. It's never going to feel like enough books, it's never going to feel like enough cuddle time. But it's, it's a mommy decision that it's time for lights out. I love you I can't wait to see you in the morning. That is what the child needs in that moment. Because the more the parent tries to convince the child to accept the limit. Why would a child ever do that? Like, no child is going to say, thanks, mom, I've had enough cuddle time. Please leave so my mind and body can get the sleep it needs. So it creates the chaos and ironically, the disconnect that's like, I have to say at the end of almost all my initial consults, that's what makes me feel so sad, is that because they're being made to feel like a harmful parent, they're actually engaging in dynamics with their kids that are what's detrimental. Right.
- [07:14]
A
Let's think of four scenarios that really reflect different ways that we can inadvertently undermine the connection that we're so longing to have because we're so afraid of the reactive child. And in doing so, I think it really alleviates some of the. The listeners stress that, like, there is something deeply wrong with their child, that there is something deeply wrong with their parenting, but actually there just is something deeply wrong with the messaging that's getting out there. And maybe there's something that is different about how their child, like, there's no getting around.
- [08:07]
B
Here's a very common situation that parents come to me for consultation. They have a child who is desperate to stay in their comfort zone, which is often home, where they feel safe, where everything's predictable, where they do not have to deal with the complexities of social engagement, competition, especially things like competition. So they don't want to do activities because for them, the, the need for control, the worry about being good enough, the worry about not knowing exactly what to expect is overwhelming to them. And so their natural inclination, as is for most humans, is to avoid the discomfort and the default is to want to do what's most comfortable. But what that means is that they're very avoidant and they're missing out on a lot of very edifying activities that the parents instinctively know the child would really enjoy and would thrive in if they would just agree to go. Right? So this could be swimming, it could be gymnastics, it could be playing on a soccer team, it could be going to a birthday party, going into a bouncy house that, that they know because they know their child well, would. Would be a really important experience for them. But they don't know how to get them there. And they feel like it's mean. Like, why would you say to a child who's saying, you can't make me, I'm not going to that soccer field. Like, it's not a have to. Like, if, if a child is, is resisting going to school, well, school's a have to. So interestingly, with a lot of my families, that's where we start is we talk about, well, how did that happen that your child adapted to school? And of course what happened is because it was a have to, they took them there.
- [10:23]
A
There's no wishy washy question.
- [10:25]
B
It, it, it's exposure, that scaffold adaptation. So for most of these families, they tell the story, right, that the child clung to them for dear life, but they, they couldn't bring them home. They knew that this was something their child had to work through, through. And because of that, that created an opportunity for the child to work through the discomfort and thrive, right? So when it comes to these seemingly less mandatory things, I have come around because of so many families I've worked with where when we create a plan that does include exposure, I have parents writing to me days later saying, oh my God, I can't believe it. We took her to swimming. We, you know, we had to help her into the car. It was really uncomfortable. But after 20 minutes, she started to put her feet in the water, wanted to play the game, and we couldn't get her out at the end, right? This, I hear these stories over and over again. So what it said to me is that the loving thing to do is to make the exposure a critical part of the process. And so there are many cases in the book where I describe in detail kids who were fiercely protesting and refusing and parents lovingly saying things like, aliza, I know, I hear you. You do not want to go to swim class. And it's also a have to. That's a mommy daddy decision. Just like we make choices about, like what school you go to and what foods we give you and who we, who you know, we have to care give for you when we're not around. Those are mommy daddy decisions. And the activities you do are also mommy daddy decisions. So we are going to go and then we go in deep on how to scaffold that, right? How to help the child go through all the things that are in their worry brain, right? So we're using tons of validation. This is not discounting a child's feelings. It's saying, I know this feels scary. Let's talk about all the things you're afraid of. And then we reality test, right? We bring in thinking brain and say, well, what would thinking brain tell us? So in this one case, I'm thinking about that had to do with swimming. The child went through all the things like, what if the teacher, you know, what if I fall under the water and drown? What if I can't do the other strokes? You know, what if the teacher's mean? And in this case, what we did was the parents said, we are going to go and we're going to be detectives. And so they said, and we did a little reverse psychology. We're saying, you know, don't get in the pool the first time. Like, let's just be detectives. And they gave her a detective notebook, too. This was an older child to, like, write down, you know, her fears and then to report back to the. To the parents about what she learned. Was the teacher mean? Did she let people drown? Were the kids mean? You know, was the. Was the teacher mean? And so we go through a whole series of what I would say is reality testing, where we're validating that this is a worry for the child. And then we go through a process. But I will tell you, in some cases, that works, and the child is able to overcome and voluntarily choose to go. But I've had many cases where the parent has to say, I know, I see you're having a tough moment. I'll help you into the car. And then they help them into the activity. And then we say to the child, our job is to make sure that you get to the class. That's our job. Your job is to decide how you participate. We are not legislating, nor can we. We don't control children's bodies. We can't legislate that they have to get into the pool or that they have to kick the soccer ball around. But what happens is, case after case is the child sits and watches. And then if they go for long enough or enough times, I would say, if I had to say, 90% of the time, they're eventually choosing to participate. And then they have this incredible sense of accomplishment and joy. So I've come to call this. I've actually sort of stole this from Emma Hayes, the US Women's soccer coach. She wrote an amazing article about her. Her approach to supporting her. Her athletes. And she calls it positive discomfort, which is basically, I like that moving away from discomfort being a negative. But discomfort is part of the growth process. So if we are always enabling our child's discomfort, then they never have the chance to work through it. So many stories. Stories in the book talk about different situations where parents, you know, we developed a plan, and I would say that that is some of the most loving parenting. And the parents are over the moon because they've also done a hard thing right. They've said to Charlie, who's, you know, throwing himself on the floor saying, there's no way you're taking me to that birthday party. And Charlie's parents have decided that he would love it if he just had the chance. So they said, we're going to take you and then you can decide, you can be a watcher, you can participate. They leave and when they come back, the parents of the birthday child are saying, you know, he moped for five minutes and then he had the time of his life. So in our, in our social media world, parents are getting the message that that's harmful to your child. Like you need to follow your child's lead and this is imposing your wishes on your child. No, this is not a parent taking a child who's only interested in art and saying, I'm signing you up for lacrosse. Like, this is not parents trying to make that their children in their images. These are parents who know their children really well and know that they would throw thrive and love the activity. And so the loving thing is not to enable the discomfort.
- [17:02]
A
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- [20:42]
B
Exactly. And I'll tell you what's really powerful for a lot of my families is the parents telling the child a lot of stories of very similar experiences. Kids love to hear parents stories because first of all they find them very humorous, you know, imagining the parent as a child who was anxious also, you know, and who had these worries. And you don't have to be an anxious person writ large to be worried about new situations and trying new things. And it also makes them feel so much less Alone.
- [21:19]
A
So along those lines, I'm thinking about scenarios where the child doesn't have any clear interest. Like, you're, like your, Your worry is that they have gotten so comfortable in the. The household structure, and they're young, so they don't want to feel like they're over scheduling. And, and somehow there is this fine balance between, well, they are young and they don't need to do this. To your point, like, it's not a have to, but it feels like I want them to have some opportunities to find out if they like something.
- [22:05]
B
So in those situations, my starting point is talking with the parent about what brings their child joy. Right? So if it's building, then the goal would be to find an opportunity for a group experience that includes building. And by the way, even if you don't want to take your child to a class or you. You don't want to spend your money on a formal LEGO class or building block class or architecture class, it's. It's creating opportunities for your child to engage with other children, even enjoying that activity, because sometimes that's. Even the first step is just helping children feel comfortable with other kids, especially the kids who are controlling and inflexible. A lot of the highly sensitive kids I see, like, it's my way or the highway. It's hard for them to override their ideas to, you know, to be able to consider other people's ideas. And so a lot of times with my families, we're just orchestrating play dates based on knowing that the child we're choosing for the play date is a good match for them and then sometimes scaffolding that for the child. So you have to sometimes take very small, incremental steps. But it starts with figuring out what brings your child joy. If it's art, then it might be an art class, right? So doesn't have to fit into some mold that all the other kids are doing. That's not the point. The point is that if we enable kids to never be in situations where there is competition, right? And there is negotiation and there is taking turns and there is flexibility. I mean, you can't function well in a group if you're not able to be flexible. So the longer kids go without being exposed to those situations, the harder it becomes. And that's, you know, a lot of times in my work with parents, the first thing I'm doing is just doing all the mind shifting, because these are hard things. Like when your kid is throwing themselves on the ground saying, you know, there's no way you're dragging me to X, Y or Z activity. And it is very triggering. It works when parents say, I know exactly where we're at. I have a great kid having a difficult moment. He's really anxious. I totally get it, and he needs me to be his rock. If I just say, fine, stay home, watch your shows, have all the magna tiles and make whatever you want without having to negotiate with anybody else, then that's not loving and helpful to him. So it's, it's that intensity of a reframe that that's not what's loving is. You know, what your child wants is not necessarily what they need. You know, I have, you know, I have all these mantras that I've come up with over the years because they crystallize the challenge, the obstacle that keeps the parent from feeling comfortable acting on what they instinctively know their child needs.
- [25:22]
A
Okay, this is a really good one because you can see a world where, because I, I think a lot of this is figuring out how to translate what is maybe what your instinct was. And then you start to question yourself because nothing seems to make sense or it doesn't necessarily jive with the, you know, conversation that's out in the world or whatever it is. But I think it would be so helpful to keep going down this path of kind of what they want isn't necessarily what they need. Because here's an example. So how can we distinguish between honoring a child's temperament? Like they need a little more downtime because you can see getting into this place, this child needs a little more time to play alone and to play with their blocks and have their siblings maybe leave them alone. And we're going to honor that. And also we're not going to overcorrect by never having them experience the situation with a little more tension. And so I think knowing when to ask yourself, what does my child want versus what does my child need? And knowing how to identify kind of the moments when want is totally appropriate and isn't going to harm them. And, and then the space where it's like we've gone too far. So can you think of a scenario that can help us crystallize that?
- [26:49]
B
Yeah, I think it's contrasting maybe two different situations. So, so with the same child. Okay, so I'm thinking of a six year old girl who is what I think of as a very high arousal kid, meaning that she gets overstimulated very easily, both positively and also dysregulated. Right. So, so, you know, she can get very silly and kind of funny and Joyful, but also sort of non functional in those moments and then also get dysregulated and you know, be very irritable and defiant, right? So she runs the gamut. This is pretty typical. And so in the situation that the parents came to me on this particular session is that when the grandparents come to town, it's very stimulating for her. They come for four day weekends every couple months and she loves it. This is, this is positive stress, right, that you were saying. Like it's a, it's positive because she loves her grandparents, but it is a stressor because it just changes the family dynamic. It's all very intense. There's a lot more activity. There's competition with her brother for who's going to get more of the attention. So it can be overwhelming to her. So what they found was that, that by Sunday, which is the day they would all go to church together and then go out for lunch, that was their ritual. She was out of her mind like a whirling dervish, completely out of control. And it ended up being a disaster for everybody. Everybody ended up miserable. The parents like left, you know, feeling very disconnected because, you know, they'd have to leave the restaurant because she was being so inappropriate. So in this scenario, as we analyze it, which is what we're doing, you know, I'm, I'm thinking to myself, okay, here we have a kid. This is not her fault. This is her system. Her system absorbs and absorbs and doesn't have a filter. And so she doesn't have one of those dandelion systems that just calms you down automatically. And so by Sunday she is so beyond her sensory and emotional threshold. So we make a plan that on Sundays from now on she's not going to go to church or, and they're not going to go out for, for lunch afterwards. The rest of the family is going to go to church. Mom is going to stay home with her. They are going to do some fun readings to inculcate her because that's important to the family. So the mom is going to read some stories with her about the Bible and then they're going to help prepare a lunch together for everybody to come home to. So that she's home, there's less stimulation. She's participated in these loving connections and that solved the problem. So that's a really good example of how, of course you have to tune into who your child is and what she needs. Right? This wasn't, you know, I'm not going to church and you can't make Me. And it's like, fine, you don't have to go to church and you can just watch TV the whole time. Like, that's accommodating. That's enabling. That is not loving, right? That's not moving the needle. So that's a good example of when you are going to change your system. Then there are times where a child, a similarly, let's say a similarly wired child, right? So I'll give you a recent example.
- [30:39]
A
She.
- [30:40]
B
The. The family plan was to go on a picnic or, right, and go to the park. And this family was trying to put in some limits and boundaries and rituals, like, we're going to rotate which playground we go to because there was so much fighting between the kids. And so they instituted that. And of course, she's happy as a clam when it's her day to choose the playground, but when it's her sister's day, it's. She's putting up all sorts of obstacles. And previously, her sister, the. The dandelion, the one who just wants peace, constantly acquiescing. And the parents were like, fine. Like, it just makes life so much easier. Even though inside they were. They were not feeling great about it because they knew it wasn't really healthy for either of their kids. For one kid to constantly be, you know, having to tamp down and not. Not get her choice and put her sister's needs over hers was not good for that child. And for the child who was the more controlling one, it was only reinforcing her sense that the world is going to bend to my will. And if I. If I have a big enough fit or I protest hard enough, I will get to do what I want to do. Now let me pause it for all you listening. I have all the empathy in the world for. Let's just call her Lucy. Lucy is the one who's the bigger reactor, okay? Sarah is the one who's more adaptable. So I have all the empathy in the world for Lucy. She comes by this honestly. It's very hard for her to be flexible. And when something happens that she doesn't like or want, she gets triggered very easily. But what Lucy needs is opportunities to learn to be flexible. So if they keep letting her be the decider, they're not moving that needle. That's the not loving thing. So in this case, what they did was they said to Lucy, lucy, I hear you. We know it's really hard when it's Sarah's choice. And that is the family plan. So you have two great choices. We can help you move into the car on your own if you want to be in charge of your body. If not, we'll be a helper and we will get you into the car because the have to is we are going to leave for the playground. Once we're there, you do you. If you want to participate, great. If you don't want to and you just want to be a watcher, no problem. But we are going to go to the playground because of course, course what happened is once Lucy understood that they weren't going to go down the rabbit hole to try and convince her to be happy about this plan, which is a whole nother discussion we've had before and, and they move through it and they are her rock, right? They're saying, great kid, difficult moment. What she needs for us is not a lot of language, not going, not trying to convince her, not trying to bribe or threaten, just move her through it. Of course she took her pound of flesh, they got there, she's harrumping around. This is such a stupid park. There's, it's only for babies, like the whole thing, no reaction, just parents just sat, didn't, didn't fuel that flame. And of course ultimately she starts to get involved. So it really, it's so situational where you have to say to yourself, you in this situation, I, I see what my child wants, but what does my child need? What's the challenge for her or him? And what's my job in scaffolding that child's ability to adapt? And so you see those two examples are very different, but they're very common. But they just have two different roadmaps based on our assessment of what the child needs.
- [34:43]
A
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- [38:39]
B
So it's a great question because there's a whole series of options, obstacles which turn into the mind shifts that I become very aware of. And they're so consistent in, like, why is this parent, you know, they're trying to convince this child to accept that they're going to be two, not four books, right? Or five minutes of cuddle time, not 20 minutes of cuddle time, or one dessert, not two desserts, whatever the case may be, Right? What is. What is getting triggered for that parent? I think it's two things, okay? Sometimes they're both at work and sometimes one. One is they're trying to head off the tantrum. If they can just. Right. If they just can't get the child to say, fine, you know, I'll sit at the breakfast table and eat, or, fine, two books is okay, then they don't have to cope with the very unpleasant tantrums. So that's a biggie, is that parents are often parenting. The choices they're making are to avoid something they actually have no control over, right? Because we don't control whether a child has a tantrum or not. So that's one thing. The other thing is there is the messaging, right, that we're supposed to bring kids along. We're supposed to collaboratively brainstorm with them and get them to understand, and that's how they're going to miraculously cooperate. That's another bit one of those big sort of unhelpful messages that parents have gotten in our day and age of social media and especially the way gentle parenting has been communicated, right? So I think it's a combination of those that these are parents, and they want to give their kids choices, and they want to explore, explain things, and they want to inculcate them. And. And here's the thing. The problem is that once kids get wind that the limit the parent is about to try and set is predicated on their agreement, they are motivated to put up every possible obstacle to agreeing with that. Because what kid wants the limit? They don't want only two books. They don't want just one scoop of ice cream. They don't want just one episode of Paw Patrol. So it opens up this vortex. I call it the loophole, where the child's just throwing up all, well, not really, Mom. Like, I don't really care about being you know, rested in the morning. I'm good with having a few more books. You know, when the parents like, don't you want to be rested in the morning? So you've got energy? No, I'm good. Let's keep reading, you know. So parents then find themselves in this gray zone where absent a clear limit, there can't be adaptation. It's the limit that scaffolds the adaptation. So when your child thinks you're trying to convince them or that you're trying to head off the tantrum, that becomes fodder for the tip, for the power of the tantrum or the power of the negotiation. So for that reason, when I'm working with families, our approach is, is something that sounds more like this, right? Allow me to tell you a great story. And it's a great New York story. So I have a lovely mom I work with and she has a very intense job and she, these are all important factors. And she's got her five year old and she's got like a one and a half year old and the five year old who's fierce and feisty and very demanding is having a very hard time with the jealousy with, with, with the toddler. So this loving, amazing mom says, okay, I'm going to take off a whole day of work, I'm going to get a babysitter for the toddler and I am going to take my daughter and have like, just fill her cup, but fill her gauntlet. What do you call those gauntlets? Like, it's not a cup, it's literally like, you know, a vat. And she takes her to Serendipity for frozen hot chocolate and they go for a, a, you know, a horse ride through Central park and they go to the American Girl store and get dolls. And she basically is like, I am just going to do everything that she loves and have no conflict. So they have this incredible day. She gets home, the daughter still insists she do bedtime. That's another story about what happens with the parental preference, which is big for these kids. And her mom is trying to set the limit and her daughter is vying for more cuddle time. And it's like 9 o' clock. And her mom says, it's really time, it's time to say goodnight. And her daughter says, but Mama, I haven't had enough time with you. You're breaking my heart. And the ma and this mom wrote me and said, am I breaking her heart? She really genuinely, like, I just, I, it just broke my heart that like it's, it's a bottomless pit. And so the point of my story is what she was doing was trying to convince her daughter to agree that she had had enough. And as long as she was saying, well, we've had all this, no, mommy, it wasn't enough time because you read those two books. But I really wanted to read the princess book. And oh, mommy can't. And then she's thinking, well, is it so bad? Let's read the princess book. But that becomes four more books, five more books. And that's when things really go off the rails for families. So the redo is this just going to call her. I was going to say Eloise because I'm thinking of like having, you know, the brunch at the Plaza. So it's, let's call her Matilda. So she says, Matilda, I know it's never going to feel like enough cuddle time. It's time to go to bed. So I love you. I can't wait to see you in the morning. If you want to be unhappy or if you are unhappy, I totally get it. I'm not asking you not to be unhappy. I'm not asking you to agree with my limit. Why would you be happy? We're ending cuddle time. But that's a mommy decision because my job is to make sure that you get the sleep you need. I love you. I can't wait to see you in the morning. So that's why the clarity of the limit and not going down the rabbit hole of trying to get your child to with the limit is such an important critical mind shift. Especially with these kids who are so fierce and persistent. I mean they will go the distance.
- [45:24]
A
And just to close up. Can you talk about kind of why it's worth planting these seeds and taking this time now? Because I think there's the part of it that's like this will make your life easier in the context of feeling like you have not so much ease with certain kids. And also how does this help grow these particular kids in ways that are more. That give them more likely adaptation and not adaptation. Like I'm going to change who you are because there's a superpower in their fine tuned reactivity. But I think it's inspiring to hear about like how this lays the groundwork.
- [46:09]
B
I mean, so profoundly. And I will say that it is never too late because a lot of times when parents come to see me and we go through what does your child really need? There's this despairing feeling and it is never ever too late. Is it true that it takes a little more work to turn things around when you start to engage in a different way with your child, but it's still well worth it. So let's start with that then. So what I would say is that when I have the opportunity, like in a perfect world, if I could communicate with and connect with every family who had a 15, 18 month old, 2 year old, right, when they're just beginning to think about the importance of limits and boundaries, especially if they have a fierce kid, is that your job as the parent is to tune in to your child's unique needs and figure out in, in whatever the scenario is, what your goal is and what they need from you to help them manage whatever that challenge or obstacle is.
- [47:33]
A
And in that description, what you just said is the sensitive caregiving, which is quite different than I think, how we interpret sensitive caregiving.
- [47:40]
B
Right. I think what I think the really important point you're making is that somehow sensitive caregiving has become synonymous with meeting every single one of your child one wants and responding to every single need or communication which is just not viable and is not healthy. You know, as a digression, I'm thinking about a parent recently who had a very ill parent and her son can't stand her getting on the phone and is constantly interrupting her. And, and typically she just doesn't do the call, even if it's urgent. And she's feeling so resentful towards this child because she feels like he is keeping her from doing something very critical for her own mental health and for her family's mental health. That is not sensitive caregiving is putting that child's desire for her constant attention ahead of the family's needs. So in that situation, what we did was, you know, said Robbie, I know it's really hard for you to wait and I need to do this call. So you have two great choices. You can, I can help you find something to do while I'm on a call. That's one great option. If we do that, great. If you, if you're having a hard time doing that and you're not able to stop interrupting, then I'm going to help you be you in your safe place with lots of toys and lots of great things to do while I do the phone call and then I will be back. That is actually what sensitive caregiving looks like. It's also teaching, you know, you can't go anywhere these days. And there's so much worry about narcissists, some and entitled kids. This is what avoids entitled kids. You're saying Sometimes there are other needs that are more important than yours. So I think that's the main problem is the mindset, right? Are these knee jerk reactions to what it means to be sensitive, caregiving. So what you want, like in that situation, what did we do? We said, what does this child want? He wants constant attention. What does he need? He needs to get lots of wonderful, loving attention, which he is getting. And he also needs to learn to adapt when you have to take care of the baby, when you have to take an important phone call, when you have to eat. I have moms who never eat because their kids are literally climbing all over them and sitting on their laps and not giving them any space. That is not good for anybody, right? So I think that is where I've landed, is the process is, let me take a step back from the urgency of my child's need or the trigger or the demand and say to myself in this particular moment, yes, he wants more screen time and I want to avoid that tantrum like nobody's business. But if I'm trying to teach him to accept that he can't always have what he wants, then I need to stick to the limit. I need to tolerate his meltdown in the most loving way by saying, stand. Stevie, I know it's so disappointing. I understand why you're mad, but there is no more tv. And if you need to be upset about it, that's totally fine. And when you're done, I can't wait to build over here with you. Like, there are ways to set limits lovingly, but we're not trying to convince kids to agree with our limits. That's a big black hole. And we're not, we're not supposed to, nor is it healthy to give kids everything they want. And I think with these fierce and feisty kids, I have to say it's so hard because of how fierce and persistent they are. It's the irony is it's so much easier to set limits with the kids who are go with the flow. It's the kids who need the limits most are the hardest to set them with. So a lot of my work is giving parents tools for managing their own reactions so they can follow through with what they know their child needs.
- [52:02]
A
Now for a quick break so I can tell you about my sponsors. I'm so into water wipes. I'm sorry. They didn't have them when my kids were little and I was wiping tushies constantly. But if you have littles, go grab water wipes. They're dermatologist approved. Even for really sensitive skin skin and they have minimal ingredients so they provide a superior clean, leave nothing behind and help protect the skin's natural balance of its microbiome. Water wipe is so good for sensitive skin because it contains just two ingredients, 99.9% purified water and a tiny drop of fruit extract. So the power behind water wipes is water. All water wipes products contain pure water filtered through a unique seven step process specifically developed to be pure than cloth and water. And if you have kids who are prone to rashes or eczema or just feeling a little bit more sensitive, this is a particularly great wipe. For deeper, more effective clean that leaves nothing behind, pick up a pack of water wipes at Walmart, Target or wherever you get your wipes. Head on over to my bonus episode where I teamed up with the awesome Chemist Confessions and we did all of the investigating and testing and they demonstrated the effectiveness of water wipes and looked at competitor brands. It's very fun, like a little high school chemistry class. Visit waterwipes.com to learn more about how water wipes effectively cleans with minimal ingredients that leave nothing behind. I'm using Wayfair so much I just ordered fantastic storage boxes. But like they're jute storage boxes and super cute. For what? For my summer graduation gifts. Because basically I put an emergency kit into these really pretty boxes and I give them to my daughter's friends and my daughter. This is the first year where I've had a high school graduate who's getting it herself. Usually it's to my friend's kids and I put everything from Pepto Bismol to things I will not discuss here that are emergency items that they might find that they need in college. Plus some some yummy treats. It's so good. And I go to Wayfair for all of those materials because the boxes are really cute and I always use their storage boxes in my office. So of course when in doubt, Wayfair probably has it. And you can also use these jute storage boxes for putting things outside for having dinner outside in the summer season. You can put towels in there, napkins, cutlery. I am so into it. I just think it's great because you can shop a huge selection of items. There's so much outdoor specific stuff and you can use it for other purposes like graduation gift boxes. Don't wait. Make your outdoor space your dream oasis today with Wayfair and enjoy it all summer long. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop a huge outdoor selection that's W A Y F A I R.com Wayfair Every style, every home. Okay? So we can't end without a few of those tools.
- [55:21]
B
So I would say the first set of tools are the mind shifts. Okay. Like, that's just really absorbing that. Your, your job is not to always make your child happy, right? Happy children are not always happy. Happy children are children who have learned to manage life's frustrations and disappointments. It's not kids who have come to expect that everything happens exactly as they want, when they want it. So there is some unhappiness, also called discomfort. Right. The discomfort of not getting what they need in that moment. So there's a lot of mindship limits or loving. Right. Your child's strategic, not manipulative. They're gonna. They are gonna go the distance as long as the outcome is what they want. Right? So they're gonna do that until they hit the firm boundary. And that's when they, you know, that's when they will adapt. So there's a lot of mind shifts. I can't control my child. I can control the situation. But that's the important first step towards parental self regulation. Then I would say the tools are one, take a break. If you need a break, don't let anybody tell you that when you are getting triggered and you yourself are spiraling and in red zone because you are human, taking a break is a much more loving thing than staying in a protracted power struggle. And definitely better than like begging your child to stop clawing at you or spitting at you or doing whatever they're doing because they're so dysregulated, right? So breaks are loving if they are done in a loving way. And I know we don't have time to go in deep on that. I think we did in another episode. So that's there. Yeah. And then I think one of my go to go to tools is. I mean, I just call it. It's lame. I gotta think of a better word. Like sort of taking a mommy daddy or mommy mommy or whatever the caregiving team is moment. So here's what it looks like in real life. I have two dads who have Max, who's five, and Max is very, very demanding. And he plays his dads off each other. And so it's created a lot of tension, right. Max will be like, oh, please, please, you know, just one more episode. And one dad's like, ah, what's so bad about it? We're just home, let's watch. And the other, you know, dad is no, there's no more tv. And then the dads get into it, and it's a big, hot mess, and everybody suffers for it. So they use. Now they're using the daddy moment, which is now Max says, oh, please, please, please, can I have another? And they say, oh, we hear you. You have a request. This is a daddy decision. We're going to have a daddy meeting, and then we will let you know what our decision is. So the idea is that almost always we get in trouble because we're being reactive, and. And that becomes very chaotic. And when things go off the rails, you need to buy yourself some time to say, okay, he wants this other episode. What does he need right now? And how can we collaborate? This is a collaborative issue. Of course, it's more com. You know, it's a more complicated situation when you're dealing with both parents trying to regulate themselves. But in this example, that's what worked for them because it created an opportunity for them to step away and not be reactive and come to a unified decision so that they could present it to Max and they could stick with it. And it led to way fewer power struggles. So I also suggest this, you know, for parents to do in any situation. Right. You say to your child, you're alone with them. I see you're having a hard time getting yourself together to get into the car. And I'm going to take a mommy minute to think about how I'm going to help us solve this problem, because I'm your helper. So it's all very positive language. And one of the things I have parents do is turn away and talk to themselves. Well, let's see. You know, Sadie's having a really hard time. Well, I don't blame her. It's sometimes really hard to go from home to school, and it is my job to get her there on time. So I guess her two choices will be to either get in the car on her own, or I can be a helper. Right. So you have to throw a monkey wrench into the situation. That has been a game changer for parents.
- [60:03]
A
Those are great tools. Those are great tools, and they're really concrete. And I think we just need to keep getting comfortable with the positive discomfort of the moments when we're growing ourselves and our kids in these very challenging scenarios.
- [60:20]
B
Yep. And I love that that you're saying that it's not just the positive discomfort for the child. It's also positive discomfort for the parents. And if parents could see it that way, I think it would also. It's a good mind shift to help them see that this is for a greater goal. Yeah.
- [60:39]
A
And, and we're gonna have to.
- [60:42]
B
It's.
- [60:43]
A
It's not just these kids who are growing into adults who have this very beautiful reactivity level, and it is just really challenging. But that means, like, these younger kids are going to turn into. Older kids are going to turn into teenagers, and we're going to need to be growing these muscles as well.
- [61:06]
B
Right. And that was your earlier question, that a hundred percent, if, if you establish these early on, that's all the child expects. Like, we're, we're setting expectations with our responses to these situations. If we're, if, if we're setting up expectations that, that if they wear us down, we will relent. That just goes in the wind column. And they adapt to that. Why would they function any differently? So when you make the course correction, ultimately it's harder because they've had many years of building this expectation, and they haven't built the muscle to manage their frustration or their disappointment or their unhappiness. So the earlier you do this, you're setting up expectations where kids have built that muscle, and they know that sometimes it's going to be yes and sometimes it's going to be no. And they, they've learned how to manage those difficult moments.
- [62:12]
A
And, you know, then cut to the workplace and romantic relationships and college and disappointments just as inspiration. You know, we don't want that to be the first time that you have to figure out how to manage these moments.
- [62:30]
B
So I'm. I was talking to a very close friend about this whole phenomenon, you know, of, of, you know, enabling and overcomp. You know, the, the whole thing, the rescuing the helicopter parent. You know, I call them emotional support parents. And she said, you know what? It's either they're going to fail early or they're going to fail later. And that just encapsulate. I was like, exactly. It's that your kids are gonna struggle. There are challenges. We, we are deeply feeling human beings that are gonna have sadness and disappointment and frustration and anxiety. And the, the sooner we help them learn to accept those emotions and learn to manage them, the, the less likely they are going to suffer from it later in life. Where you can call it failure, you can call it, you know, anxiety about trying something new. But the sooner you scaffold these experiences for your child in the way that I'm describing, the, the more it becomes part of their DNA. It's the nature, nurture thing. They, they come wired, who they are in my work, we're focusing on what is the nurture piece look like. And that is the key variable. I mean, you know, I've learned so much from Dr. Boyce, a lot about how that caregiving environment has an outsized impact on these kids because of how impacted they are by their experiences in the world. I say to all my families, you know, the dandelions make their parents look so good. It's so easy to look like a good parent if you have a dandelion. Time to leave the playground. No problem. They've dropped the pail. They're offering it to their friends in the sandbox and they're running to the car and they make you look so awesome. And the thing with the big reactors is it, it. It's so triggering. And you come by it honestly. And it takes a heroic amount of self control and mind shifting. And those parents need a lot of compassion and a lot of support and a lot of tools and strategies to provide what their kids need. Because it's very different than what kids who are just wired to be more regulated and more adaptable need. It's just a truth.
- [65:17]
A
Exactly. I think this is the perfect episode to follow Tom Boyce. I just think it's like, how does this look in the wild?
- [65:26]
B
They need to hear that. That, that is very validating to them because, you know, they've got parents saying, oh, you just, you know, you just need to do this or that or you're indulging them. And there's not a lot of empathy for just how hard it is not to indulge them. Because as one of my dad said, you know, I'm just taking the parenting path of least resistance. Like, I am so frigging exhausted. These parents are exhaust. It is exhausting. So they need that kind of validation. And then they also need the tools and strategies not. Not to be maligned or judged or made to feel badly when they need a much needed break.
- [66:10]
A
Here, here. That was awesome. Thank you so much. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.