The Science of Conversation: Tools for Parents and Kids

Summary

Podcast Summary: Raising Good Humans Episode: The Science of Conversation: Tools for Parents and Kids
Host: Dr. Eliza Pressman
Guest: Professor Allison Wood Brooks
Release Date: December 6, 2024

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In this insightful episode of Raising Good Humans, Dr. Eliza Pressman engages in a profound conversation with Professor Allison Wood Brooks, a behavioral scientist and author of the forthcoming book Talk: The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves. The discussion delves into the intricacies of conversation skills, particularly focusing on how parents can equip their children with effective communication tools to foster better connections and manage social anxieties.

Introduction to the Guest and Topic

Dr. Pressman introduces Professor Brooks, highlighting her expertise as a Harvard Business School professor and consultant to the Boston Celtics coaching staff. Brooks emphasizes that her work, though not initially targeted at parents, holds significant relevance for them. The primary focus is on applying the science of conversation to help children navigate social interactions more confidently.

[01:46] Allison Wood Brooks: "It's a stealth… it's a stealth targeting to parents."

Understanding Anxiety in Conversations

The conversation begins with addressing social anxiety in children. Brooks shares her academic journey, explaining how her research on anxiety evolved into understanding its role in conversations. She introduces the concept of reframing anxiety as excitement, enabling children to channel their nervous energy into positive interactions.

[06:16] Allison Wood Brooks: "Reframing anxiety as excitement… let me think about how this upcoming thing that I'm nervous about could go well."

The Myth of Natural Conversation Skills

Brooks debunks the common misconception that conversational prowess is innate. She argues that conversation is a learned skill, accessible and improvable through deliberate practice and preparation. This revelation is particularly empowering for parents of socially anxious children, reassuring them that their kids can develop these habilidades.

[09:34] Allison Wood Brooks: "Conversation is a skill. It's learnable."

Preparing for Conversations: Tools and Techniques

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around practical strategies for preparing children to engage in conversations. Brooks advocates for teaching children to anticipate their interactions by considering potential topics in advance. This preparation minimizes anxiety and enhances the flow of dialogue.

[17:08] Allison Wood Brooks: "Make it personalized… think about who you're going to see, what you talked about with that person the last time… jot down a couple of topics."

Active Listening and Its Importance

Brooks emphasizes the critical role of active listening in effective communication. She outlines three steps to listening:

1. Receiving Information: Observing and hearing nonverbal cues.
2. Processing Information: Internally elaborating on the received cues.
3. Expressing Listening: Verbal affirmations like paraphrasing and asking follow-up questions.

This framework helps children not only listen better but also demonstrate their engagement, fostering deeper connections.

[26:24] Allison Wood Brooks: "There are three steps to listening… the expression of listening back to your partner."

Incorporating Levity into Conversations

To combat conversational monotony and prevent boredom, Brooks introduces the concept of levity—integrating humor and warmth into interactions. She explains that levity can make conversations more engaging and enjoyable, thereby strengthening social bonds.

[34:33] Allison Wood Brooks: "Levity moves… don't need to be funny, are like little moments of fizz and sparkle."

Handling Difficult Personalities and Power Dynamics

The discussion also touches upon managing conversations with individuals who may not be receptive or who wield conversational power in less constructive ways. Brooks advises teaching receptiveness—validating others' feelings and expressing uncertainty—to maintain respectful and productive dialogues, even amidst disagreements.

[42:44] Allison Wood Brooks: "Receptiveness is things like validating the other person's feelings… expresses uncertainty and wondering about it."

Encouraging Open Dialogue with Children

Brooks shares personal anecdotes about engaging with her own children, particularly those who are more reserved or less communicative. She underscores the importance of acceptance and recognizing individual personality differences, advocating for a balance between encouraging dialogue and respecting a child's comfort level.

[55:24] Allison Wood Brooks: "Personality and individual differences are profoundly real… giving them space and grace to be who they are."

Harnessing Conversational Strengths for Good

Concluding the conversation, Brooks highlights the ethical responsibility that comes with enhanced conversational abilities. She encourages parents to guide their children in using their conversational strengths to foster inclusion and empowerment rather than exclusion or bullying.

[61:40] Allison Wood Brooks: "There's no superpower that can't also be used for evil. It's up to you as a good human to use these powers for good."

Final Thoughts

Dr. Pressman and Professor Brooks wrap up the episode by reflecting on the transformative potential of understanding and teaching the science of conversation. They advocate for incorporating these skills early in children's lives to ensure they grow into empathetic, effective communicators.

[63:09] Allison Wood Brooks: "Over time, it's like a sign that you're learning… it just becomes part of who you are. A better version of yourself."

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This episode provides a comprehensive exploration of conversational skills, offering parents actionable strategies to help their children navigate social interactions with confidence and empathy. By leveraging the insights shared by Professor Brooks, parents can foster environments that support the development of effective communication, ultimately contributing to the upbringing of resilient and socially adept individuals.

Transcript

[Allison Wood Brooks]

The following podcast is a Dear Media Production.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

One of the biggest pain points we talk about right now is social media and teens. And I am really excited to partner with Instagram to introduce Instagram's teen accounts. I am so happy that they have listened to the very serious concerns of parents and they've begun to really address them. And the best part about how they're addressing these concerns is that it asks nothing of you. I'm telling you about it, but your teens accounts will automatically get defaulted into these settings. So this can give you so much more peace of mind because the right protections are in place. So here are the protections that are now automated into your teen accounts, making their profiles private by default. So if they had a public account, it will become private. Having automatic contact limits so that they can only be messaged by people they follow or are already connected to. So no creepy or vicious dms. There are content restrictions that place them into the most restrictive settings and automatic filters for offensive comments or DMs. This matters because screen time comes up endlessly on this podcast. People are stressed. We've talked about the science about why having limits is a good idea. And Instagram is helping you set those limits because it's not even your responsibility for these particular limits. It is that I want you to take those phones away at night and not at mealtime and not during sources of connection and all the things we talk about. But the fact that Instagram has implemented these limits is going to help. And I am really behind that.

[Unknown]

Welcome to raising good humans. I'm Dr. Eliza Pressman. I hope you had a wonderful Thanksgiving. If you were celebrating. And I just want to tell you this next conversation was so awesome. I had it just before Thanksgiving with Professor Allison Wood Brooks, who just wrote a book called Talk the Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves. It's not out, but you can order it, pre order it. She's a professor at Harvard Business School. She's a consultant to the Boston Celtics coaching staff. I just thought that was cool. She's a behavioral scientist and leading expert on the science of conversation. And what I thought was so cool was taking her cutting edge science on conversation and examining how that can be applied to our kids, both in our conversations with our kids and also helping our kids harness the skills they already might have for, you know, great conversations and better connections. And also helping our kids who really struggle to have social interactions, what they can do to build that skill, because it really is a muscle that we can build. And if you enjoy this episode, please don't forget to write a little review on Apple Podcasts. You can give it a five star rating.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

That just takes a second and it.

[Unknown]

Really helps get the podcast out there. And I think you will really enjoy this conversation.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

When I was writing this book, I was hoping that it would get in the hands of people like you who have such reach to parents.

[Unknown]

Oh, I'm so glad because I wasn't sure, you know, it's. It's not necessarily targeted at parents at all.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

It's a stealth. It's a stealth targeting to parents. Yeah.

[Unknown]

But it's so exciting to have this opportunity to have your work brought to parents because, you know, this is when we're teaching these skills and it's also. Well, now no one knows what this is about, although I did an intro, but I wanted to address this and I'm so glad you said that because I wanted to talk about your work on. I want to hear about your course. Talk.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

Right.

[Unknown]

The most popular course at Harvard Business School.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

I don't know if I can claim that, but it is very popular.

[Unknown]

I think it's very popular. I'm like the most popular, so I want to hear about that.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

But I also think that for the.

[Unknown]

Purposes of thinking about it, for parents, if relationship is this incredibly protective force that we have as an opportunity in raising thriving, resilient kids, it would be really helpful for parents to learn these skills that you know, of communication and of connection. And also if you have a kid who is struggling socially, what I really want to dig into is how can we learn this art earlier? Yeah, that's it. If you could just cover all that.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

I got it. We'll solve it all. We'll solve it all within. Within an hour. Thank you. I think it's both for kids. It's for. It's for all adults, all parents, all kids. Kids who are struggling with anxiety. It's kids who have so social anxiety. Kids who are racked with insecurity and, and don't know how to connect with friends. It's also for kids who are pretty great at it and to have a, to sort of foster a better understanding of what am I doing that seems to be working and am I using my powers for good? Like, am I right? Like, am I using this thing that I seem to be pretty great at? Am I using it in the direction that I want to. Which is a question that I think all adults should be thinking about too.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So let's start with. I mean, I want so much to spend time on everything you just mentioned. So I. I will fit in as.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Much as we can, and then we.

[Unknown]

May have to continue the conversation. Yeah, but I. I love the idea of both harnessing this power for good when it. You're naturally inclined, and also helping kids who struggle with social anxiety have these skills without or like, have some more concrete way to practice these skills and stretch themselves. And so whichever one you want to start with, I'm into.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

Let's start with the more sort of obvious pressing need, which is the anxious kids.

[Unknown]

Let's do it.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

When I was in graduate school, most of my research was about anxiety. And it was sort of the first time that a behavioral scientist like me had thought about anxiety. Not that necessarily reaches a threshold that needs medication or therapy, but that sort of anxiety that a lot of people feel a lot of the time, and what can we do about that? What can you do to use it as a force for good is a signal that you care about something. And how do you channel that caring in a good direction rather than. And then letting it sort of cripple you or be debilitating in your life. And so I studied lots of very concrete coping strategies. And what became most known was this idea of reframing anxiety as excitement. You stay in that sort of high arousal zone where your heart is racing, your palms are sweaty, your cortisol is. Is higher. But try in your mind to think of it as, hey, this is a signal. These are physiological signals that I care about something. Let me think about that as a good thing. Let me think about how this upcoming thing that I'm nervous about could go well. Let me think about the opportunities rather than how it could go poorly, the threats. I have a sort of long and deep love for people and children who struggle with anxiety from that place of studying anxiety in the context of negotiations, social interactions, advice exchanges. I realize I had this realization when I moved from grad school to my professorship at Harvard. I've been studying emotions all the way along. But actually, what I've really been studying is how people express their emotions in conversation. And there is so much room, there's so many opportunities in the context of live conversation, in the way that we talk about our feelings, and this sort of recursive loop between how I feel in my inner world inside and how I express that to the people around me and how that influences how I feel on the inside and how it influences what I say to people and sort of this recursive loop between your inner world and your outer conversational world. And so I think in a way this whole book, Talk, is a framework to help people, including children with anxiety, think about how they can face the social world and feel more confident, more smooth, more empowered to do the thing that we all need to do every day, which is, is talk to people, talk to other kids, talk to their parents, talk to their teachers, and feeling more confident and secure in how to do that.

[Unknown]

So let's go through some of the ways that you can kind of educate and arm yourself. You're a kid who's really struggling with figuring out how to make friends in middle school, or you're going to your first high school party, or you've got a elementary school student just going to their first day, like all of the things. And what are some tools that you go through that you can translate to how we can express this to our kids?

[Allison Wood Brooks]

Sure. The first thing you can express to your kids is it's so easy to see other people that seem like they're naturally gifted at conversation. They're funny, they're charismatic. They. It seems like they were just born that way. Like, they're just popular. They're just good at this thing. And the truth is, conversation is a skill. It's learnable. And whether that other kid who seems so charismatic started learning it really, really early and picked up some tricks or is still working hard right now, when it all seems so easy, is still working hard behind the scenes in their inner world to do lots of these things that I'm about to share with you. And for a lot of really great conversationalists, what they'll tell you is that it is very effortful. They're thinking ahead before their conversations. They're thinking very actively about what's happening as the conversation unfolds. And so let's dive into it. But that's the we in the book, we call it the myth of naturalness, which is we just have a very strong feeling that, wow, this is just easier for some people, and they were born with it, which is not true. So to start with, one thing that I think really one thing anxious kids will find very empowering and everyone is that it really helps to think ahead about your conversations. If you think about the day that you have coming up, you can predict with pretty good accuracy who you're going to see, who you're going to run into. Sometimes it might be that you have a basketball practice, so, you know, you're going to see all the members of your team and your coaches and the other parents. Sometimes it's just about school, and so you know whose locker is near yours or who's in each of your classes or who you might bump into. So thinking ahead a little bit about who you're going to see and in what context means it opens the opportunity to think ahead about what you might talk about when you see them. This is an amazing opportunity and most of us don't take advantage of it. We usually sort of bump through life and just we run into people and then we're like, oh, yeah, hey. But instead you can anticipate it a little bit. So when we think ahead about what topics we can raise with people, it makes our conversations much more productive and more fun and less anxiety inducing. And it's at these very clear moments when you realize, ooh, this is getting awkward, we need to switch topics. I need something else. And usually most of us feel this sort of feeling of panic, this anxiety of like, oh, God, what are we going to talk about now in that moment, if you've thought ahead about possible topics, it's a much easier off ramp to get to those topics in that moment. So let's say I know I'm going to talk to my friend Eliza. I know that she is an expert on parenting and kids and gratitude and all kinds of things about managing parenting and family life. So I'm going to think about that. I'm going to think, what. What will she find most interesting, most comforting, most maybe exciting and different and new? And I'm going to jot down a couple of those things. You can write them down on paper. You can just think about it. You could put it in your Google calendar. And. And what we find in our research is people who we nudge to do this in a. In random assignment, even for 30 seconds, show a marked difference in the level of productivity and enjoyment in their conversations. And the most amazing thing is that our instincts tell us that we don't need to do this with people that we know well. That's where it's the most productive and the mo. Because we just sort of roll through, oh, I know I'm going to see my kid later. I see him all the time. I see him in the morning, I see him at night. If you think ahead, even for 30 seconds about what you might talk about when you're in that car ride on the way to hockey practice, that conversation is going to go better and they should be doing the same. You can teach them to do the same.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

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[Unknown]

Oh, my God. There's just so much that we could dive into. But one of the things you mentioned was like thinking about these topics in advance. And I'm curious, like walking through this kid who might be more socially anxious. Let's say they pick a few topics. What are some ways to decide those topics? And then the second part of the question is, what if it's a flop?

[Allison Wood Brooks]

Yep. Great. So these are great questions. Okay, so the first question is what are some ways to think about what the topics could be? So the first piece of advice here is to make it personalized. Think about who you're going to see, what you talked about with that person the last time you saw them, what that person was doing in their life in the interim since the last time you saw them, what you know of this person. So what do they like? Are they obsessed with the, with a basketball team? Are they into what? Are they making homemade ice cream? Are they obsessed with math? Like, what do they like? And what do you have to add value to that idea to that topic? And thinking about ahead of time means, oh, I should, I should just remember to check in with them about they were making homemade ice cream. I knew they were going to try to make this lavender ice cream flavor. That's crazy. I'm so curious to hear how that went.

[Unknown]

And it does feel so good to know that somebody was paying attention.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

Oh my. So this is an example of what we call long term listening. It's just so powerful. It's often when you think of someone charismatic, this is one of the things that they do. They listen really attentively to what you've said and then they walk away from the conversation and think about it more. And then the next time you see them, they remember to bring it up again. It's the remembering part that most of us are not that great at. But like, making a concerted effort to prep topics and write it down helps a lot. It's almost like CRM, the customer relations model that salespeople use. We should all be doing that in our personal relationships to make them deeper and much more enjoyable.

[Unknown]

It's so interesting because as you're describing a charismatic person that way. I feel like there's especially in power dynamics in school, there's like the kind of sort of powerful kids who are not nice, not necessarily channeling or harnessing in a way that is beneficial. And like the things that we were, we're going to address later. But then when you're describing kind of what, what makes this conversationalist a great conversationalist or talking or communicating or listening, really. I think a lot of the qualities that anxious kids have lend themselves beautifully to being so great in. In these moments because they are kind of like revisiting the conversation afterwards to kind of spin out.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

Maybe they're ruminating anyway. So we should take advantage of those ruminations rather than letting it sort of sabotage our inner worlds. Love that we can channel it in a productive direction where it helps you remember the things that. Even if so, imagine this. Imagine that a kid has a conversation with somebody and there was something that really bugged them about that conversation. And usually they would go after and ruminate about it for hours or days and they feel really bad and embarrassed instead. If we start from a place of saying, look, every conversation, even between the best conversationalists, when you start looking at transcripts, it's a train wreck. Like, half the things that anybody says are nonsensical. We make all kinds of mistakes. So just that as a starting place and then saying, okay, you're ruminating about this one thing. If it's really bugging you, how can you turn that into an interesting question to ask them the next time? Like, what could you say to them? Like, hey, you seemed a little annoyed when I was asking about your brother Dave. Like, what. What's up with that? Are you okay? Right? Like, expressing it in a, in a form of a kindness to that person. Or maybe they said something to the kid that made them feel bad about themselves. I wonder if there would be something productive, some brainstorming that you do there where you think, okay, well, what would an amazing person say the next time about that topic? Like, why was that hurtful to me? And how. What kind of question could I ask that person that might make them think about it? Like, hey, hey, I. I really love the idea of being sort of direct. Like, hey, it hurt my feelings a little bit that you said this thing. I just want, like, what were you thinking about when that, when you said that? Like, where did that come from?

[Unknown]

You say that in such a lovely kind of upbeat way, but it's incorrect.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

Yeah. Yeah, I think, yeah, Elisa, you've, like, put a finger on something about. Something about me. But I, I think, I think could be helpful to others, which is difficult topics and difficult questions. The experience of discussing them with others doesn't need to be unpleasant. So there's really lovely research about. We all hold these strong lay Beliefs that hard questions, like questions about death and questions about very personal things like STDs are going to be really hard and unpleasant to talk about with others. But when you actually make people talk about those topics and you study their emotions and you study the aspects of how the conversation unfolds, you realize that they're amazing. I mean, they never, they, they don't. These conversations don't go as poorly as you think they will. There's been some really nice emerging research on this. So our fears about it being embarrassing or embarrassing your counterpart or that it's going to be sad or upsetting are often misplaced. It's instead, there are difficult moments in conversations, but they usually come from moments of where we sort of poke barbs into each other's identities and hurt each other, rather than the idea of landing on topics that from the surface look hard.

[Unknown]

So it's not really the topic. No, it's about the delivery of the topic or the reception.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

It's the delivery of the topic and it's the listening. How much are you listening and caring about the other person's perspective. So topic prep and topic selection could be really helpful to these anxious kids. But it's also the idea of, of just listening. Right. Like listening. And there's decades of research about active listening, which is mostly nodding and smiling and leaning forward and non verbal indicators that you're hearing somebody, which is a great start. It's very helpful to sort of make someone believe that you're listening to them. But it's really just a start. The, the next thing that comes after is actually listening to them. And what we have found in our research is when people are actually listening to each other, they're able to use verbal cues of listening to show that they've heard people.

[Unknown]

So you're mirroring back or like how, or synthesizing or what is the.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

All of it.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

All of it.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

So you do accommodation and mirroring or what scholars may call entrainment, where you start to sort of adopt each other's language and that kind of micro mirroring. But it's also, hey, I'm hearing what you're saying. I'm thinking about it and then I'm going to say it back to you. So it's acknowledging, repeating, affirming what someone has had said. So I say back to you. Hey, that was a really great question where you probed me about, well, is it mirroring or is it this? So I. You can only do that if you've actually heard what your partner has said.

[Unknown]

Just As a like, side note, if, especially with teenagers or even emerging adolescents, that's like, it's so hard not to tell them all of the thoughts that we're having and give them all of our brilliant wisdom.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

Tell them rather than show them. Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown]

But I. I think just the description you gave of active listening is really helpful.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Because we have.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Even if you come in with an.

[Unknown]

Agenda of, like, I did want to talk about these certain things, particularly with. As your kids are getting older, they. They might have a, you know, little ears, perk up, but maybe too much of an agenda. And so if you're really listening in the way that you just described, I just think that can be super helpful in getting teenagers to trust you and open up totally. It's probably for everybody. It's just like, extra.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

Exactly. Exactly. And letting them show you, like, what are they interested in, what are they excited about? And maybe relinquishing a little bit of control to say, well, let's go. I sense that you're feeling energized by this topic or this idea. Let's let the conversation go there and let me learn as much as I can about your perspective on it. And, like, what are you excited about there?

[Unknown]

And just another observation about a kid who might bend more anxious is they probably are better at listening, let's say. Or maybe it's just a more quiet kid. They're really good listeners. And what I think I'm hearing is that being great in conversation entails being a great listener. So again, it's harnessing the skills they already have. They just don't necessarily come across as the kind of skills you would think of as a great conversationalist.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

There are three steps to listening. The first is literally seeing and hearing the inputs around you. The sound of the other person's voice, their. And seeing their visual cues, their nonverbal, like hand gesticulation, facial expressions, body language. That's step one. Literally just information coming in. The second step is processing that information. You elaborate on some of those cues and some of them just, like, disappear. The third. So quiet kids and anxious kids may be better at those first two steps. And those first two steps for a parent looking at their kid are invisible. You can't actually know if your kid is what they're seeing, what they're hearing, what they're elaborating on in their mind. What you can see is the third step of listening that's unique to conversation, which is the expression of listening back to your partner. So quiet kids, or those who are haven't learned this skill yet aren't good at showing their parents that they've heard them. Like, hey, I loved when you said, I loved when you told me that making my bed every day is a great idea. Right? Like they're never going to afford firm parents in that way.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

They're not great at paraphrasing, they're not great at asking follow up questions. All of the verbal behaviors that we as adults think of as this third bucket of behavioral expression, of listening. Kids are not good at those. And so kids who are anxious or quiet or introverted are going to be particularly hard to know. What are they listening to, what are they hearing, what are they not hearing? And maybe encouraging them to lean into that third bucket, saying, well, you can tell other people that you've heard them, you can repeat what they've said, you can check for understanding out loud, you can ask follow up questions, you can call back to something that someone said earlier. Like all of these third bucket expressive behaviors are things that kids who are secretly good listeners and anxious might be even better at doing those things.

[Unknown]

What a cool intervention. Have you ever done an intervention with those kind of kids?

[Allison Wood Brooks]

I haven't targeted anxious kids in particular, but I, in a way I have at my course at Harvard. It's kind of what I'm doing. These are kids who many of them struggle with anxiety. Exactly as you've anticipated, their anxiety is partially what has made them high achievers, probably. And then they get to my class and they're like shockingly insecure or low confidence about how they're presenting in the social world now.

[Unknown]

Do they choose that class? Like, do you find that the kids who choose that class are more likely to be kind of curious about how to be a charismatic cool talker and then they. You're actually surprising them with new information or do you feel like you get a lot of charismatic young people in there?

[Allison Wood Brooks]

The selection effects are all over the map. A lot of kids, a lot of students show up because they feel this is a weakness for them and they know they need to get better or they're wracked with anxiety and they want to feel more confident, or they're introverted and they don't know how to operate in like the corporate world as an introvert. So that's one side of it. On the other end of the spectrum, some people are awesome at conversation. They're super charismatic. They know it's their strength and they, they're just looking for these tips around the margins to sort of polish their diamond and Then everything in between. It's just something that I've learned. All of my students, they're all going to come in with different strengths and weaknesses. And what I, I love about teaching this course is that I think it delivers useful learning and practice for all types. Some people are going to find the levity part of class to be completely mind blowing and eye opening. And some students are already hilarious or very, very warm. And they are just, that's just validating for them. They're like oh yeah, this is why I, this is a real reason that I've succeeded thus far in my life. Others, you know, are not very good natural question askers and they so that part of the course is very validating to their great question asking habits. And others are like, oh my God, I spend whole days never asking any questions. I need to work on this. So it's just, it really runs the gamut.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

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[Unknown]

Now I'm like, wait, I need to talk about levity. How do you bring up levity? Incorporating levity into conversations, especially when the conversations maybe don't even seem like they would lend themselves to levity.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

This gets back to what we were talking a little bit about earlier, which is this idea of difficult moments in conversation don't, don't happen because of tough topics. They can happen any. You could be talking about a really hard topic and it could be hilarious, right? Like there could be lovely moments of levity sprinkled throughout. So in my course, we talk about balancing gravity and levity. We're not looking to turn people into ridiculous clowns. The problem, the, the, the sort of specific problem that levity is trying to solve is boredom. When we think of conversations that go awry, it's easy to think of fear and anxiety and anger and hostility, incivility, these high arousal, loud feelings that very obviously can derail an interaction and turn into a sort of blowup. What is less obvious are quiet feelings that kill a conversation, like a poisonous sleeping pill. And honestly, I think boredom is a more common problem in conversation. Than the high arousal hostility problems and so levity. These levity moves, which we consider as both humor and warmth, they don't even need to be funny, are sort of like little moments of fizz and sparkle that help us avoid boredom, that pull the speakers both back in. They feel bonded, they feel energized, they feel engaged. And so the conversation can continue in a productive way and it can really come from anywhere, but you have to remember to do it. It's so easy to let a conversation doom spiral into an overly serious, overly intense or boring place.

[Unknown]

I think of some people who just don't like when you incorporate levity and feel so offended. And I, I don't think that's most people. I think humor and warmth are keys to so much in life. Is that a them problem or is that like, oh, I have to just know my audience and they, that they just get too intense about it. Although I guess if they do, nobody wants to talk to them.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

Yes. So as, as with all things conversation, it's all co constructed. So if it's a them problem, it's also sort of a you problem because you need to deal with it. You, if you have to engage with them, which is a little bit of a separate question. But if you have to engage with them, then it requires an immense amount of reading, their mind and preferences and also room reading. Right. And levity of most of all is so highly context dependent. Some people have a preference for they don't want silly asides, they don't want to go on weird digressions talking about weird topics, they don't want you to make jokes, but they might really love compliments or they might really love reminiscing about an experience you shared together. Or they might really love you saying something nice about somebody else. Right. So there's other sources of warmth that can find that fizz without be seeming ridiculous or inappropriate based on your partner's preferences. And it's still important to not let things get too serious. Now the separate question is if this is a them problem and it's a persistently a them problem, you have lots of conversations with this person over time. You know this is their preference. You don't enjoy doing that work of trying to figure out what they're going to find fun or enjoyable and you're not having fun. That's a legitimate reason to sort of deprioritize that person in your social portfolio, in your life. Sometimes we have, there are some people we're obligated to talk to, colleagues, coworkers, Some, maybe sometimes family members. But this is a. Is. There are real reasons to try to talk to some people less, and this one is a legitimate reason.

[Unknown]

And so if you're thinking about helping kids engage with other people, different kinds of people, and you know, they're not sure if they've come upon a more. I hate to say this, but, like a more difficult person to hang. A difficult hang. Or maybe they're a difficult hang. Like, what are some tips on getting. Getting people to open up a little bit more as their personality is emerging. And you know, it's different with adults, but with young people, you might have one.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

So, like, how do you help them.

[Unknown]

Open up and, and give them the skills to not get to adulthood? Giving those cues that are going to essentially make them have, you know, like have someone say, let's deprioritize you.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

Right? Totally. My pediatrician, I have three kids and my pediatrician always says, we love edgy babies, we love edgy kids. We don't ultimately love edgy adults. And so our job as parents and teachers is to figure out, like, where is the edge coming from in childhood and help them channel it in a productive direction. I also think just a huge part of being a good parent, our responsibility and what we're aiming for is to help our children develop. Develop interpersonal skills. And in fact, I think it might be the sort of number for me, the number one goal of what? School, the purpose of school and the purpose of parenting in, in general. Lots of obviously lots of other goals in there. But developing interpersonal skills is just so important.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

I mean, it's so protective.

[Unknown]

Like, if you can have beautiful relationships.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

In life, that's it, you've done it.

[Unknown]

What else?

[Allison Wood Brooks]

Yeah, what else is there at the end? I have this amazing colleague who studies like, people on their deathbeds, like, what. What their regrets are and what they wished from their lives. And the number one thing that people say is, I wish I spent more time laughing with the people I love or just spent more time with the people I love? And that's it. You know, when you reach the end, that's. That's really what matters most. So the question is, how do we get our kids to a place that by adulthood they're not a person that people are going to kick out of their life and out of their social portfolio. And the, and the real question is, let's. You got to figure out, like, they're difficult in what way. And one direction is maybe they're too quiet or maybe they're sort of Boring and vanilla. Right? That's the direction that's going to require more levity. And they can. Levity is about finding the fun. It's not about necessarily being funny. It's about finding the fun and. And the warmth in any situation. And so if you feel like your kid is struggling to be noticed or struggling to be loved because they're too quiet or. Or boring, you can work on their levity moves. And that's both humor and warmth. If you feel like your kid is difficult in the direction of hostility, which, by the way, I have three kids. They're kind of all over the map. And in many ways, all kids have moments where they're gonna. You're gonna see both of these things in them and worry about both of these things in them. But if you have a kid who seems difficult in the direction of argumentative, angry, brooding, maybe ennui. Right. Like just sort of jaded, that kid's gonna need to work a little bit more on their receptiveness skills. So receptiveness is a toolkit. This is based on amazing recent research in. Across thousands of live conversations looking at what are the things that people say and do when they confront a moment with somebody where there's true disagreement? What kind of language do they use? And who are the people who are navigating this? Well, who are the people who end a conversation in a place where that other person still wants to talk to them again? And who are the people who are most persuasive?

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Okay.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

And so what these researchers find is receptiveness. It's a little bit surprising, I think, when most people confront a moment with someone that they disagree with. Our instincts are that we want to be persuasive. We feel right, we need to compel them to agree with our conviction. That flies in the face of everything that actually works in conversation. When you think about the other person, like, all of those things are going to be very hard to be on the receiving end of. And what is easy and pleasant to be on the receiving end of is receptiveness. And so receptiveness is things like validating the other person's feelings, affirming their. Their feelings. Even if you go on to disagree with their viewpoint, hedging your claims instead of saying like. Like, no, abortion is wrong because it's saying like, well, I think some people are concerned about abortion for these reasons. Or I've heard, I've heard. And I wonder. I wonder if somebody who's had an abortion, what they would say. So these. These qualifying phrases that show, hey, Nobody knows everything and I don't know everything. And even if I hold strong convictions, I can express uncertainty and wondering about it. And that's so much easier to be on the receiving end of.

[Unknown]

So much easier.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

So much easier. It's so pleasant to, to hear that. And then it allows the conversation to continue in a way that can be much more productive. Other strategies that can help is literally dividing yourself into multiple people in the moment. So saying, as your friend, I love you and I love that you hold this fiery view and I just admire everything about it as, as a young woman, I wonder if we could consider. What if we considered a different maternity leave policy? Right. So literally in that moment, saying, I, I love and respect you. I can't wait to hear everything that's in your mind. But for a moment, let me put on my, like, grumpy hat or like, let me put on whatever hat and let's consider another perspective that helps to depersonalize the disagreement itself so that you. So the conversation can continue and we can help our kids learn to do that.

[Unknown]

I think, I mean, the. Some kind of. I would love some kind of school based intervention.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

I'm. I know I wrote this book for adults, but in my heart of hearts, I'm so hoping that some curriculum builders turn it into something starting in elementary school, all the way up through high school. I really think that the ideas in talk are what so many young, middle and high school age children need. This is it. This is the, this is the answer for social anxiety and like, all the problems.

[Unknown]

And also, like, we just went through, and I think people are still recovering from another incredibly heated election. And we just went through and continue to go through just watching a failure of communication skills over and over again.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

Yes.

[Unknown]

And more publicly, publicly and privately.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

We're coming up, we're coming up on Thanksgiving and I know that a lot of people have a lot of fear about, like, how's this gonna go? How do I engage with my family members about this? And the answer, the answer is often receptiveness. You can talk about anything hard if you have the right skills.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Just side note, I feel like there are a ton of graduate student students at Harvard who could do that for you. They can do that for all of us. Yeah, maybe. Maybe that's just like, I'm just whispering that into the world.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

Thank you. I hear you received.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

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[Unknown]

Is like, I'm just going to turn.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

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[Unknown]

So next question is, let's say, you know, because I really love the idea of giving our kids these skills so that they aren't the ones that we're trying to pull away from now. What about some ways to crank someone open who's just really not receptive when you know that, you know, because you. We get a lot of. How old are your kids?

[Allison Wood Brooks]

Mine are nine, seven and five.

[Unknown]

I don't know why. That just is delicious, but also delicious. That's very close.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

They're close there. It's a lot. It's a lot. It's been a lot. It's been a busy time. Yeah.

[Unknown]

But as they. So I'm sure because you have three that you probably have one that's a little bit easier of a hang than the other. Just.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

Yes.

[Unknown]

What are the chances that they're all just like super easy hang?

[Allison Wood Brooks]

They're all easy and difficult in different ways. One of them. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Unknown]

I mean, not for you necessarily, but like out in the world.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

Totally.

[Unknown]

So I wonder, but even for us as parents, so many times parents say, like, I can't get anything more than a one word answer out of my kid.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So what can we glean from this book and from these, this research to help us crank those puppies open? Is that even a phrase now?

[Allison Wood Brooks]

It is now. It is now, Lisa. All right, so here's the question. How do we crank these puppies open? I have three kids. My nine, nine and seven year old are boys and my five year old is a little girl. And the boys hate debriefing. I like want to hear. I want to know every single thing about their lives. I want to know like all of it. Every single thing. I wish I could be a fly in the wall just observing like a sociological observation of their lives at school. Like what is every interaction you have with every other kid? What a. What was said? Who said it? How are they feeling? I want to know it all.

[Unknown]

What was their body language?

[Allison Wood Brooks]

Oh my God. They. I get nothing from them. Literally, like less than nothing every once in a while. And I'm a pervasive question asker. Like I just, I. With adults. I. All of my friends and colleagues will tell you, like, I'm just, I'M going to ask and ask and ask and ask. And I'm like a. Like an unquenchable thirst for knowledge, information, and knowing people. I just am so curious. And the people I want to know most of all are my children. And the boys are endlessly fascinating because they're just. They don't want me. They don't want that from me. They don't want me. Probing, probing, probing, probing, probing. It's something I learned quite quickly, even as early as they were toddlers. And so there are, you know, approaches you can do to try and crack those puppies open, especially the ones like my boys, who are. Are less inclined to do it themselves. My little girl is so much more open just. Just who she is. Loves talking about the details, notices more about the world, wants to share more of it with us. Like, it's just so much easier. But the boys, we do peek and pit at dinner time, of course. Or I know some families do, like Rose Bud. Rose Budthorn can pit. Yeah, all of it. All of it. So we do peek and pit at dinner, which I love because it's almost like becomes part of a ritualized version of. We have to share. This is what we do as a family. We share with each other. And my middle guy, Grady, who's seven, he's our quietest child. He's quite quiet. He's quiet with adults. He's chattier with kids. But often during peek and pit at dinner, he will tell you something great that happened. Usually something related to, like, some sports victory during recess. And then he'll just say. And he'll just say, just another, nope, no pit. Just another great day. And so he does this very fascinating avoidance of talking about negative experiences. And over time, I would, like, probe him like. Like, how can you start a sentence by saying, like, I felt sad when. Or I felt annoyed when. Or I, you know, I felt nervous when. And still he will say, just another great day. And I really have come to. To realize some kids, and I think they're lucky, some kids really experience the world as, like, this is great. I'm okay. And it's just another day. And they don't.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

So dreamy.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

It's so dreamy. It's. And it's endlessly frustrating as his mother, because I want all the juice and I want all the, like, tell me your struggles. I'm here for you. Let me help you. But instead he's, you know, it's just. It's just another great day. And that's okay. I think we. And I'VE learned this sort of, as a scientist of conversation as well. This sort of radical level of acceptance of what other people are willing to share with you or, or what's going on in their world. Their perspective is so different from yours. It's almost unfathomable how someone else's experience of the world is so different from yours, and that includes our children. He is very different from me. I experience extreme emotions and all the details and I want to talk it out with everybody. And he doesn't experience the world that way and he doesn't want to talk about it and, and that's great for him. It's okay. Like, he's doing great.

[Unknown]

It is kind of cool because theoretically, with our partners and our friends perspective, like, really wanting to know and really wanting to understand and realize that they're just totally coming from a different place is very challenging. But with our kids, I think we really, really start to buy it that, like, humans are just their own people.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

So different. As a psychologist, I. Before I had kids, I really felt like almost everything is trainable or learnable about who we are.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

And then I had kids and I was like, oh, like, personality and individual differences are profoundly real. Everybody comes out. We're all so different in ways that, like, are so hard to understand. Even when you deeply know someone and love them and want to know everything about them, everyone is just incredibly different.

[Unknown]

I think the, the buy in for temperament really is having multiple children.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

Yes. Oh, it's so. It's very validating as a parent, actually, to realize this is not about me. This is. My kids are so different from each other and it's not about me at all. It's about who they are and figuring out who they are in the world. And they came out with a lot of this already going on in their brains. Eliza. I'm an identical twin.

[Unknown]

Oh, my gosh.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

And so I, of, like, all people should know, even when you have the same DNA as another person.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Yeah.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

Does not mean that your brain is going to react to every situation in the same way, or that you're going to like the same things or that you're going to get excited about the same things or feel sad about the same things or feel mad about the same things. So when we think about our children who share a little bit of DNA but also differ genetically, like, they're just different people. And that's true of everyone in the world and everyone in your family. And so giving them space and grace to be who they were meant to be is both hard and very important.

[Unknown]

So not cranking those puppies open.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

I'm still. We could still try. Sharing things about yourself is a good way to get them going. If. If all else fails often I'll just say, guys, I had a really tough day today. Like I was so busy and here's why I got to talk to this person. They were so funny and they told me this thing. Just starting to sort of share about myself. Well, sometimes, I don't know, sometimes I think they get so bored that they just want to change the topic or it empowers them to share something about themselves.

[Unknown]

Also raising boys. Naomi Way was talking about this. She's at nyu. That especially with boys, you want to share with them, teach them how to be, how to receive the sharing as well.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

Yes.

[Unknown]

And so there you are. You're doing that.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

When we. When we think about the course, this talk course course. And I'm teaching these students to develop their communication skills. My. Our last day of class is. Is next week after Thanksgiving. And the final note that I always end on is, look, you've now learned a super. You've learned a set of superpowers. You have the tools, the skills to connect with anyone, to make anyone feel heard, to show caring and respect and make it fun and, and how to do this better. But there is no superpower that can't also be used for evil. And it's up to you as a good human to use these powers for good. And I think that's a great lesson to share with our kids too.

[Unknown]

It sure is. Which actually I was going to wrap up, but now I.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

We.

[Unknown]

At the beginning I said we would address what do we do if we've got these kids or we know these kids who don't do seem to have these superpowers. How do we make sure that we're harnessing them in the best way? Like how do you notice it? Like, I think we kind of can tell. But what are the. The ways that people can tell and what can we do to notice and re harness if it's not going in the direction that we maybe of our hopes and dreams?

[Allison Wood Brooks]

Yeah. These kids often experience popularity and it's for a number. It can come from anywhere. Just like there's four talk maxims. Right. Some kids are funny and you'll just notice that they're good at it because they're making their peers laugh more than others. Some kids are really good listeners and I think their peers learn to appreciate that. They learn that about some kids more than others. They feel drawn to them. Some kids are very smart or creative, and so they talk about interesting things that also draw people in. And some kids are really very kind. Like, they are good at giving compliments to other people or telling others, empowering others, essentially. And so any one of these sort of skills can draw others in and make some. A kid, popular or successful, successful socially early on. And I think the way to think about it is like, how do you harness that? How do you make sure they're using it to its highest and best use? And not using it to exclude people, not using it to bully people? Because it is a. It is a source of power. As soon as you have popularity or power over your peers, you can use that for good purposes, like inclusion and empowerment, but you can very easily use it for exclusion and, and putting people down. So in my. Among my children, I have some one that sort of seems to have the superpower, but maybe doesn't have the instinct to always use it for good. And so we're constantly saying, like, are you using. Like, why are you doing that? Like, what, How. What were you thinking about when you made this choice? And was that, were you using your power for good? Just like sort of constant question, making them reflect about how their behaviors reflect their motives and their values. But it's a relentless effort as a parent to be asking those questions all the time.

[Unknown]

I love this so much. I'm so glad because I really loved having you. And I definitely, at first was like, well, this is Harvard Business School, so I don't know that it's gonna translate, but then I got an early copy of your book and I was like, it's so translate.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

I'm so glad that. I'm so glad you gave me a shot. I think I might fit better on your podcast than I do at Harvard Business School.

[Unknown]

School, definitely. But I'm sure that it's super helpful also for emerging business leaders. So it's just helpful for everyone. I'm very grateful. And it's also hilarious to think about not being self conscious while talking to you about.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

I know my students talk about this all the time. We call it hypervigilance. It's like we become hyper vigilant, like in class with each other. Like, oh, we're all now, like, doing all the things. We're leaning forward, we're nodding, we're smiling, we're doing all the. But also they become hyper vigilant outside of class, in their real lives as they're talking to other people. Hyper vigilant? Yeah. Am I doing. Oh, I just did the thing they just did, the thing they just said. Hyper vigilance can be distracting, but over time, it's like a sign that you're learning, right? Like you're reflecting and thinking about the stuff. And over time, what we hope is that those. That hypervigilance just turns into habits that don't require vigilance anymore, and it just becomes part of who you are. A better. A better version of yourself.

[Unknown]

I'm going to be thinking about this, obviously, for days.

[Allison Wood Brooks]

Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.