← Raising Good Humans
Raising Good Humans
The Stories We Tell Ourselves and How To Let Go Of The Ones That Don’t Serve Us w/ Elise Loehnen
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- [00:01]
Dr. Lisa Damour
The following podcast is a Dear Media production.
- [00:10]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Welcome to Raising Good humans podcast. I'm Dr. Eliza Pressman, and. Okay, I just want to send love out there because I know it's just that time of year.
- [00:22]
Today we're talking about how to actually distinguish between feet, feelings and facts and the stories that we tell ourselves and how to let go of the ones that don't serve us. I'm so excited to share this conversation with you because it's with a really, really dear friend of mine. And as always, keep reaching out to me on Instagram. You know, I've got my free substack newsletter, drlisapressman.substack.com and the whole thing. Also, we are doing one final Zoom Live Q and A kind of Office hours parent group next week. So if you're not a member of my substack, hop on and join me. And I can't wait to see you.
- [01:09]
Courtney E. Martin
I think people like to confess things to me.
- [01:12]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Oh, yes.
- [01:12]
Dr. Lisa Damour
It's so true. That is so true. You're a little bit of a witch.
- [01:17]
Courtney E. Martin
It's true.
- [01:18]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Oh, God. Oh, by the way, this is how I wanted to start this episode, and I don't know where it will go. Okay, I know one thing. Through this episode, I will release one story that I didn't realize I told myself because, selfishly, I feel like that would make my day better. Yeah, right?
- [01:42]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah.
- [01:43]
Dr. Lisa Damour
And I loved that you wrote in the. What is it called when you dedicate a book?
- [01:49]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
A dedication.
- [01:50]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yes, I loved what you wrote because it, to me, brings it back to parenting, which is sort of where I always come back to. And forgive the use of the word, but can you just say what you said in your dedication?
- [02:04]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah, I'll paraphrase, but it was essentially, since I wrote it with Courtney, it was, we have five kids amongst us, and it was to our children so that they are free from our stories and can tell their own.
- [02:16]
Dr. Lisa Damour
I just love that. Thank you. So given that, can you just first give a little bit of background for those of us, not me, but anybody here who has not read your first book, your beautiful, beautiful book, and now this workbook that's coming as a companion just to sort of frame all of it?
- [02:37]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah. So my first book, under my own name, because I'm a career ghostwriter, which is a big part of my own story, is called Honor Best Behavior. And essentially, it's an exploration of the way that our culture programs women for, quote, unquote, goodness. And I'm using quotes because I'm not talking about sort of that internal idea of goodness. But goodness that's external, that's mediated by professors and parents and judges and priests. And men, meanwhile, are conditioned for power. There's really nothing worse for a man than to be considered feminine or weak.
- [03:15]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Right.
- [03:16]
Courtney E. Martin
But this idea of being good is a really heavy and pernicious and invisible load for women to be a good mother and a good co worker and a good friend and so on and so forth. And we perform this goodness ritually in a way that I don't think we're necessarily conscious of. But tell me if this relates. A good woman is never tired. A good woman puts her own wants, subjugates her wants to other people's needs. In fact, she probably doesn't even have any wants at all or have any wants that she could overtly express. A good woman wants no praise or affirmation or attention. A good woman has a body that is compliant and disciplined and ideally as small as possible. A good woman doesn't talk about money. She thinks money is base and unspiritual and really not for her. A good woman is sexy but not sexual, desirable but not desiring. And a good woman is not angry about any of this. And if that resonates with you, as it does for me, then I have just given you a list of the seven deadly sins. Right, which are sloth, envy, pride, gluttony, greed, lust and anger. Yeah.
- [04:43]
Dr. Lisa Damour
So I. There are ones that pull more of a thread for me, which is. Actually, I didn't even do that on purpose. But you have a podcast called Pulling the Thread.
- [04:53]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah.
- [04:54]
Dr. Lisa Damour
And there are some that pull more than others for me and for each of us, I'm sure. But overall.
- [05:03]
It'S like it. I will say, like when I first read your book, I was like, well, I'm not. I enjoy these, if that makes sense. Like I'm. I'm not. It's. This isn't about me in particular because I actually.
- [05:20]
Embody sort of a more Natural goodness.
- [05:22]
Courtney E. Martin
Yes, 100%.
- [05:25]
Dr. Lisa Damour
But I think it's fascinating from like a socio cultural like observation or anthropological study.
- [05:33]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah.
- [05:34]
Dr. Lisa Damour
But it has nothing to do with me. And then over time, just from talking to you and also just becoming more of who I am.
- [05:41]
Courtney E. Martin
Yes.
- [05:41]
Dr. Lisa Damour
It turns out there are some that are particularly salient for me. But all of them are.
- [05:48]
Courtney E. Martin
They all resonate.
- [05:49]
Dr. Lisa Damour
All of them.
- [05:49]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah, It's a bit like quicksand. There's a lot of people who approach the book and are like, I don't have any money problems and I'M sex is not an issue for me. And then as they read the book, I hear, heard this all the time. I wasn't going to read the chapter on lust or I wasn't going to read the chapter on greed. And then I realized, oh yeah, these stories are in me too.
- [06:09]
Dr. Lisa Damour
I mean a very like the most specific example was like the money one. I was like that one I don't even, I don't need to worry about. And I'm still at this age, like I, I feel like so guilty charging for my work because I'm like, but what I'm doing is of service and it negates the service if I charge. But I'm like charged because it's otherwise it's not work. But I feel terrible. And when people say the thing of like well we're not paying for this because people, you know, this is such an important topic. People are dedicating their time. I'm like, of course I will, of course I'll volunteer my time. And it happens so often.
- [06:55]
Courtney E. Martin
Interesting.
- [06:56]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yes.
- [06:57]
Dr. Lisa Damour
And I'm like, oh my God, I.
- [06:58]
Courtney E. Martin
Have this too many of us do.
- [07:00]
Dr. Lisa Damour
The money one was the like a big one. Yes, but I thought it was like that one.
- [07:05]
Courtney E. Martin
I can skip oh, a hundred percent. I also one of my stories about money is that if some, if I accept payment from someone, then they own me. I don't know how to sort of deliver what's requested. I only know how to over deliver and then still feel bad about it or then to like have resentment at the way that I've over delivered. I have so many money stories and I've just had to pick them off, catch myself, pick them off one by one. And what I think is not to say that men don't have their own.
- [07:36]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Stories, but today that's not what we're talking about.
- [07:38]
Courtney E. Martin
That's not what we're talking about. But it's also their stories are not about not charging. When you hear about healers, anyone who wants to be of service, I put myself in this camp and charging and money. When I have this conversation with men, the look, it's like the sideways. What? It just doesn't occur to them.
- [07:58]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yeah.
- [07:58]
Courtney E. Martin
Whereas women are like, how do I negate my own value? And how dare I think I should deserve this? Or it's just rampant. There's, it's such a big topic.
- [08:09]
Dr. Lisa Damour
And I, because I have two daughters, I have a stepdaughter too, and a stepson. But my two daughters who see me sort of grow over time, work wise and they're getting older and sort of making observations. They started asking me, like, if I'm traveling, like, for work, why am I traveling and how much am I making? And things that I used to, like, not want to talk to them about because I thought it was icky and not something they should know about. But then I started to think, what message am I giving them?
- [08:40]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah.
- [08:41]
Dr. Lisa Damour
And why can't I just say, like, this is how I share my work? And also, this is my livelihood. And also, this is, like, we can talk about money as, like, a concrete thing. It doesn't have to be a weird topic.
- [08:57]
Courtney E. Martin
Well, money is inherently neutral. We just ascribe a lot of feelings to it. And for a lot of women, the stories are around scarcity. There's not enough. If I get more, someone else will get less. I think women are so relational, too, that there's this fear. All of our stories are on top of an underlying fear. Fear of loss of safety and security, fear of loss of control, fear of loss of approval. And so there's something, I think, for many of us where if I make more than other people, I'm out here alone and I have. My compensation needs to be relational. It needs. Particularly for those who work in a company.
- [09:37]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Right, right.
- [09:38]
Courtney E. Martin
It's so intense for women. And I'm glad you mentioned your kids. And I only have sons, so it'll be interesting. It'll be a different experience. But my money stories really came from my mom, who grew up in scarcity, oldest of seven kids, and she went on Donahue when I was a kid, which is so weird because I grew up in Missoula, Montana.
- [10:01]
Dr. Lisa Damour
That is very weird.
- [10:01]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah. It was like, a family friend in San Francisco was like, I know someone who has fear of becoming a bag lady. Like, they were doing a whole thing with Gloria Steinem.
- [10:10]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Oh, wow.
- [10:10]
Courtney E. Martin
And this was such a pronounced anxiety for my mother that this woman in San Francisco knew about it. And so my mom was flown to Chicago, I think, to do Phil Donahue with Gloria Steinem and to talk about her fear of becoming a bag lady. So that was, like, one of the baseline stories of my childhood was this anticipatory anxiety that my mom carried that she would be, you know, shuffling around without a home and her belongings in a bag.
- [10:43]
Dr. Lisa Damour
And so when. When you.
- [10:46]
Courtney E. Martin
Which is.
- [10:46]
Dr. Lisa Damour
That's a lot.
- [10:47]
Courtney E. Martin
Not totally rational, but. Yes.
- [10:49]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah.
- [10:50]
Courtney E. Martin
But that really infected my mind.
- [10:52]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Right. So that's what I was gonna say. What I think. What I think is important here in the context of thinking about what. What we think about so much is just raising our kids and figuring out what we're doing with ourselves is like you. We don't have to. We can't really do anything with our kids. We just have to deal with these stories in order to have proper, authentic conversations with our kids about any of this or non conversations just in living our lives. And so when, when you think about like your conversations or modeling or thoughts around money, for example, do you see a difference in your approach since you've kind of worked through all of these stories?
- [11:35]
Courtney E. Martin
And this was before I wrote the book, but I. The pattern was visible to me as a child and the fear that my mom would. And my father. I grew up in Missoula, Montana. My father is a physician. My mom ran his office. And so I grew up in an upper middle class, particularly in a place like Montana. Like the high. You know, to be a doctor or a lawyer was sort of the ultimate. There wasn't the same financial inequity that we experience today. So I had a nice childhood, you know, with access to extracurriculars and education and all of that. Nothing grand but nice. And my mom would just, I remember throughout my childhood this sort of rubber band because she was very generous. And then she would be like, we, I can't get a latte. You know, I can't afford it. And so that was what I would hear through like this boom and bust fabrication that wasn't really predicated on anything in reality. And so I would do that to my now husband. We would go out for dinner, this is in my early 20s. And I, we would go out for a nice dinner and then I would be like frantic, like, we, I can, we can't afford it. We can't, you know, just kind of psychotic. And he would say like, whoa, that was your idea? And what's, what's happening?
- [12:54]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yeah.
- [12:55]
Courtney E. Martin
And so I did a fair amount of therapy just to catch myself in that story. I wouldn't have had that language, but to manage the anxiety that would come when I felt like I had over spent or overextended myself and recognizing, oh, this is my mom's life playing out in my own behavior right now. And I can just catch it instead of like freaking out at my husband. And that really sued the pattern. And. But it's one of the things that's like so conscious for me that I'm, I, I catch myself doing it where I'm like, let's go on vacation and then have to know I'm gonna have to contend with the anxiety that in.
- [13:36]
Dr. Lisa Damour
The aftermath of like, what have we done? Yeah, yeah.
- [13:39]
Courtney E. Martin
And I have certain sort of ways to talk to myself, to calm myself down. But again, it's not rational. I will always live within my means. I was trained in that way to live well within my means. But that's so persistent for me that I'm still working and I don't want to do that to my kids.
- [13:58]
Dr. Lisa Damour
So to use your tools, the facts.
- [14:01]
Courtney E. Martin
Yes. Okay.
- [14:02]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Versus the stories.
- [14:03]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah. So the tools. So essentially what happened is the book came out and it's essentially about. I sort of act as a cultural therapist. Although I say one of my big stories is I'm not an expert, I'm not a therapist, I'm not a professor, I'm not a theologian. All the things. Right. I can tell you all the things. I'm not. And so when I was taking the book out into the world, everyone, you know, what I felt like I was doing was exposing something that's. That was invisible. And then once you see it, you're like, this is so obvious.
- [14:34]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Right.
- [14:35]
Courtney E. Martin
But yet nobody had named it in that way. But that's. Once you see it, you can't unsee it. And so the feedback was, okay, now I know that this is happening. What do I do?
- [14:46]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Right.
- [14:47]
Courtney E. Martin
And so my editor asked me to do a workbook. And because I'm not a therapist and I didn't want to do sort of the. Here's a bunch of empty pages and some really good question prompts. Go journal.
- [14:59]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yeah.
- [14:59]
Courtney E. Martin
I wanted to bring people through an actual process that would change their life in a small but significant way. I partnered with a friend who's an incredible coach, who I use as a coach. And we created this process of taking. Figuring out what your stories are because many of us are just running them on a loop or we've picked them up from the culture, from our parents.
- [15:22]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yeah.
- [15:23]
Courtney E. Martin
And then once you can identify the story, then there's a whole series of tools where you understand why you have the story, the way, the ways in which it's helped you or kept you safe or kept you from your. The underlying fear. And then there's a process of making it really big, giving it a name, creating a Persona. So I have a Beth bag lady, Bethy Persona and I talk to her in these moments where I feel completely possessed.
- [15:50]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yeah.
- [15:51]
Courtney E. Martin
And then you also. My. One of my favorite things is as part of this process is you teach a class to a college, a group of, you know, 18 year old co eds of women.
- [16:03]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah.
- [16:04]
Courtney E. Martin
And so I would teach a class on like the back the, like, how to make sure that you don't end up as a bad lady or. One of my big stories for sloth is I'm the only one who can do things right, so I should do them all. And so when you're teaching a class to a bunch of unsuspecting 18 year olds and you're like, this is what you do. You make sure you never delegate. You, you know, only you create like the zone of competency where you keep everything tight, you don't share details, et cetera. You start seeing your own, for lack of a better word, like subtle insanity. And you, it becomes funny and it also becomes like, this is so dumb.
- [16:45]
Dr. Lisa Damour
It's a story.
- [16:46]
Courtney E. Martin
It's a story. And then you say you've come up with the next story, which is for me, with that one, it's. I'm much stronger when I'm supported and I can do the work that really matters when I delegate and accept support.
- [17:01]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
And now for a quick break. Okay, it's really holiday season. We are deep in.
- [17:09]
Dr. Lisa Damour
So I'm going to tell you that.
- [17:10]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
You can go to Wayfair and get everything.
- [17:14]
So I don't know how this fall went so fast, but it did. And I've already done Halloween decor and.
- [17:22]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Now Thanksgiving, and we are moved on.
- [17:26]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
To what I like to call Chrismica because I am a mixed household and we celebrate a lot. So go to Wayfair and you can get everything for every single vibe you're going for. I am a fairy lights fanatic during this holiday season. So those are all over the place. Indoors, outdoors, on the tables. I also want to tell you that if you're really into it, they've got outdoors rattan, grazing reindeer, lawn decor with LED lights. Basically you can get anything at Wayfair to make the holiday season special. So I did not get the grazing reindeer lawn lights, but I'm so into all of that. Get last minute hosting essentials, gifts for all your loved ones and decor to celebrate the holidays. For way less, head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com Wayfair Every style, every home. If you have pets and children and a partner or really just pets and they're making like my little adorable Beatrice. My dog's name is Beatrice. And actually, why am I just saying?
- [18:47]
Dr. Lisa Damour
I have one dog, I have a second dog, Rico.
- [18:50]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
But we just, you know, I just got married, so I'm still Getting used to the fact that I have two dogs.
- [18:55]
Dr. Lisa Damour
So Rico is a little bit better.
- [18:57]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Than Beatrice about soiling the the house. I'll be honest, my husband is a better dog trainer. So Beatrice, she's small and she periodically is messy. And so I just want to tell you about the green mitt kit from Clean Safe because it's the easiest way to keep your fabrics looking brand new in five minutes or less. This is a very simple process. You spray the solution, you wipe, you rinse the mittens and repeat like it's so easy. The mitt does the cleaning. If you can clean a kitchen counter, you can clean your couch or your rug. I'm not saying Beatrice does this very often, but she does periodically make mistakes or brings mud in or whatever. And so I'm very into this very simple way of dealing. You spray. There's no bleach spots, there's no harsh chemicals. The green mitt kit is non toxic. It's fragrance free and made with just three ingredients. And because it's soap free, there's no sticky residue, no stains that magically reappear the next day. Go to clean safeproducts.com humans and get $15 off the green mitt kit. That's Clean safeproducts.com Humans for $15 off the world's easiest soft surface cleaning solution.
- [20:09]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Just to like, go back to being able to state the distinction between the stories and the fact. What was your fact?
- [20:16]
Courtney E. Martin
Okay, so this is really important. And even if you only take this from the workbook, it's such a critical science skill. So it's the very first thing that we do is the difference between a fact and a story. With the idea being that most of the things that we that are stories in our lives, we hold as fact. And a fact is something that is incontrovertible. A feeling can also be a fact, but not the story about why you're having the feeling. But I feel scared is a fact. But mostly they're things that you would catch on a video camera.
- [20:48]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yeah, right.
- [20:49]
Courtney E. Martin
And then the story. Everything else is story.
- [20:51]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Everything.
- [20:52]
Courtney E. Martin
Culture is a story. Patriarchy is a story. Your whole Persona is a story, which is a little scary, but it's true. And so like an easy example in my own life would be, let's say my husband Rob walks into the walks, comes home, and he doesn't look at me or address me. This is like a pretty frequent occurrence in our house. But with my like ADH adult sweet husband who always has his AirPods in, I can have Many make up many stories from this. He's angry at me. He doesn't love me anymore.
- [21:27]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Right.
- [21:27]
Courtney E. Martin
He's, like, irritated. He had a bad day. He's obviously gonna leave me. I mean, once you start doing it, it is funny because you get going, and then suddenly you are, like, in Uzbekistan, you know, where you're like, I don't know how I got here, but I have the ocean.
- [21:46]
Dr. Lisa Damour
I do it.
- [21:46]
Courtney E. Martin
We all do. And then you often, in conflict, you are arguing about your stories and asserting them as fact and wanting other people to confirm the fact.
- [21:57]
Dr. Lisa Damour
And he's. The fact is he just came home listening to his.
- [22:01]
Courtney E. Martin
He didn't say hi to me when he came in. Right. That's the fact. Yeah.
- [22:05]
Dr. Lisa Damour
I do this a lot with my daughter. My younger daughter, she really confuses the story she tells herself with fact. So I often have to say to her, okay, yesterday it happened. She said, dad looked at my paper, and he said, it's terrible, and I have to rewrite the whole thing. So I was like, okay. I'm certain in my head that that is not what happened.
- [22:30]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah.
- [22:30]
Dr. Lisa Damour
But that is the story that she told herself based on whatever feedback he gave her. So I said to her, okay, so that sounds like that's how you felt what actually happened. And then she smirked because she knows that we go through this a lot. And she's like, he said that I should consider restructuring it in a way that makes more sense for what I wanted to get across in this one, like, sliver, like, 1/20 of the paper.
- [23:01]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah.
- [23:02]
Dr. Lisa Damour
So. And in none of that, was it terrible. And in none of that, was it, like, do everything over again. This is a disaster. It just happened.
- [23:09]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
He.
- [23:10]
Dr. Lisa Damour
He looked at something she was doing, which is also unusual because she's in high school. But this is regular. This is like a regular conversation, which I'm aware of now because I'm so good at telling myself stories.
- [23:26]
Courtney E. Martin
Yes.
- [23:27]
Dr. Lisa Damour
And I just don't want to. I don't want to watch that happen with my kids without giving them the tools to be able to go back to asking themselves this very question. Which people can work on. Yeah. As one of the tools in this journal in a very concrete way that I think I was like, oh, I could just do that. Like, I could just nail that skill and feel like, yeah. A thousand times better about moving through the world.
- [23:53]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah.
- [23:54]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Because that is hard.
- [23:55]
Courtney E. Martin
It is hard. It's the most. I think, the most important tool. And I think for anyone who's listening, who wants to understand it, even going to my Husband and saying, hey, when you come in and you don't acknowledge me, I start telling myself stories like you're mad or you want a divorce. Like I. And even just saying it one is helpful because then suddenly you're talking about something that's not.
- [24:20]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yeah.
- [24:20]
Courtney E. Martin
A direct judgment. And they can see your thought process.
- [24:24]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yeah.
- [24:24]
Courtney E. Martin
And it creates like enough distance that you can sort of laugh at it without saying, like, you didn't say hi to me.
- [24:31]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Right.
- [24:32]
Courtney E. Martin
Like, what's going on? Like, part of it is they're not responsible for your stories. Even though in some ways they're at the source of your generation of the stories. But you don't know what's going on in your mind.
- [24:42]
Dr. Lisa Damour
No, I mean, I. I'm learning all of this also in real time. Being newly married where I'm like, oh my God, I have such a. I've lived so long with my own.
- [24:54]
Like, I don't. I didn't need to share space with my stories.
- [24:58]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah, it's tough.
- [24:59]
Dr. Lisa Damour
It's really hard.
- [25:00]
Courtney E. Martin
And the other thing I think it's really important to say and a big part of the process is to understand like that our stories are. Keep us safe. They're highly functional. Often we can look at our lives and say, I did this. I've done this because I carried this story. Like for a lot of women, being perfectionistic and hard driving and all of that has been a very useful story. That drive for approval. And it's not how I want to continue to live my life at this point. I'm ready to put that story down, sort of. Marie Kondo it.
- [25:34]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Thank you for your service.
- [25:36]
Courtney E. Martin
I want some. A new pair of socks, you know.
- [25:38]
Dr. Lisa Damour
But that's such a self compassionate way of approaching this. So instead of like, listen to my crazy story because I'm such a lunatic, it's a little bit better to think that they have served you.
- [25:50]
Courtney E. Martin
Yes.
- [25:50]
Dr. Lisa Damour
But you're ready to let go of.
- [25:52]
Courtney E. Martin
Some of them and you would know more about this too. But I think even. And again getting them out on the page and sometimes that's why also the fact is really helpful. Starting with an actual fact and then using it to generate your stories because it does create enough distance that you can then start to look at the story, work with the story. Where did the story come from? Did I pick this up from someone else? Did I pick it up from the culture? How has this story been affirmed to me? Do I. Am I ready to let it go? Like in. In Courtney when we've done workshops? That's a Big thing. People will come in sometimes with a big story and again, want to assert that it's a fact. And they're just not ready to let it go.
- [26:32]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yeah. You know, I have many stories I'm not ready to let go of. Yeah. But I am ready to acknowledge their stories.
- [26:38]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yes.
- [26:39]
Dr. Lisa Damour
I'm just like them.
- [26:40]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah. No, I mean, you hear it all the time with. Let's say you've suffered a big betrayal and someone's left you and you're just not ready to get out of the maze. Like, you're not ready to let this and move on. So some of it's. You ought to keep the story going for a little longer.
- [26:55]
Dr. Lisa Damour
But, like, not to perpetuate the idea of a martyr mother. Because we want to get away from that. And also, I think it can serve you because it can serve you to do this work so that you actually can really say to yourself, I've got to get. I gotta get rid of some of these stories.
- [27:18]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah.
- [27:18]
Dr. Lisa Damour
And come to terms with them. And I'm not going to if I don't realize how important they are for my kids.
- [27:22]
Courtney E. Martin
Yes. And so, you know, one of my big stories, I'm the only one who can do it right. Therefore I should do it all. Which really shows up in my family life.
- [27:31]
Dr. Lisa Damour
You're a household of one woman.
- [27:32]
Courtney E. Martin
Yes. One woman, two sons. I do have Vicki, who works with us, thank God, like our third co parent. I wrote that she was a throuple, that we were in a. A sexless thruffle. And I had to take that out because we're really not in a thruffle. But God, I love her. And anyway, I try to name that because I also don't want a story that I'm doing it all by myself. I have support and excellent support. So, yeah, when I. After I wrote On Our Best Behavior, I fell off a horse and broke my neck. And I was fine. Miraculously, I needed to wear a brace for four to six weeks. And I was immobilized. And it was so interesting to me. And of course I'm like, oh, I wish this had happened to me so I could use this material in my book. But I. I couldn't drive, I couldn't do laundry, I couldn't cook. And it was so helpful because I could sit there and type like a broken robot. But I realized I had so much anxiety because I couldn't do my thing, which was is manage and control and be perfect. Although I'm really not perfect. Yes, you are. And nobody was complaining. And it was so it was like I realized, oh, this call.
- [28:51]
Dr. Lisa Damour
It's you, it's me.
- [28:52]
Courtney E. Martin
My husband is not wondering what well balanced meal we're serving for dinner or whether the house is perfectly clean. He doesn't notice, he doesn't care and he doesn't compel it. It's me. It's all self generated. And so it was really interesting to have that experience. And Courtney, my co author had a similar experience where she and she called this Persona the lizard. She wasn't. She had broken her foot and her kids were like, I like this, I like the lizard so much more than mom because she was not micromanaging, controlling and performing again. Which I think we all feel compelled to do. This idea of what a. What a good mom.
- [29:37]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yes.
- [29:38]
Courtney E. Martin
Does.
- [29:39]
Dr. Lisa Damour
I think those are really good moments. I guess anytime we've had to stop without choosing to stop, it is a really good opportunity to find out that it turns out that the really good mother that we are was.
- [29:57]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah.
- [29:59]
Courtney E. Martin
You get to see what you're up to.
- [30:00]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yeah.
- [30:01]
Courtney E. Martin
And it's startling because I think before that point I was still carrying a lot of anger at my partner for the lack of equity in our relationship, which I also engineer because let me.
- [30:12]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Tell you, he can't do that.
- [30:14]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah. I'm in there. Like if I gave more than 10 minutes to respond to an email, sure, maybe he'd have a fighting chance. But I am so insistent or I have been so insistent on the story that I'm the only one who can do it. Right.
- [30:27]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yeah.
- [30:27]
Courtney E. Martin
That I don't delegate to him. I don't give him a chance. And I've created this pattern to affirm my story so it can be true. And then when I go to the fear, what am. What's my fear here? My fear is, well, who would want me if I'm not useful? It's that it gets that. I know that's. But true. I'm like, I have a story that everyone is in relationship with me because I'm so helpful and useful and supportive. Supportive. And all the things that I do for them.
- [30:59]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yeah.
- [31:00]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
That's the fear.
- [31:00]
Courtney E. Martin
And that's what I really need to or have done a lot of work on but continue to do work on so I can let this other story go. Just calm down with my over functioning. I just took that to a really sad place. But that's the truth.
- [31:15]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Just it's, it's so. It is so true. I bet so many mothers in particular. That is exactly the fear.
- [31:22]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah.
- [31:23]
Courtney E. Martin
Who, who would. Who am I without playing this role and doing it so well. Who would wanna. Who wants me around?
- [31:31]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Ugh. I'm feeling that so much right now. Cause my daughter just graduated. Yeah. And I'm like, could not be more in a place of, like, what are things that she definitely won't think to do?
- [31:43]
Courtney E. Martin
Well. Yeah. And this, you know, the really sad reality. I remember going to this mom's group with this woman named Tandy on the west side after I had my first and a mom in the group. Meanwhile, I had gone back to work at, like, six weeks because, you know, that's the amount of leave you get with pay. And this mom hadn't left her. Her baby for more than, like, 30 minutes and was like, in a little bit of a. In one of those spaces. And Tandy said, I want you to think about your childhood and think about your happiest memories. My guess is, is that most of your memories, when you're happiest as a child, are like, you running through nature by yourself or with your friends, and your parents are nowhere to be.
- [32:32]
And I. It really stuck with me. Cause that was my real. I mean, I love my parents, but that was my reality. And so it's hard, I think, to accept. My son, my oldest is 12, and he's going to sleepaway camp this summer. His choice. And I keep finding myself trying to talk him out of it. And even though I recognize it's so good for him, but I am like, how can you?
- [32:54]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
I'm so useful.
- [32:55]
Courtney E. Martin
I'm like, I'm so used to you. How are you gonna function without me?
- [33:00]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yeah.
- [33:01]
Courtney E. Martin
And that's another story.
- [33:02]
Dr. Lisa Damour
But these are good stories to work through sooner rather than later, because.
- [33:11]
It does. It is hard when they're, like, leaving the house. If you haven't figured this out.
- [33:17]
Courtney E. Martin
The best part is three weeks. And I was like, this is. Are you sure you want to do this? You know, just going through it again? Yes, Mom, I want. The best part is it's a Christian camp, and then he's going to Jewish day school next year. I'm like, this is perfect. Some New Testament, then some Torah. Like, I don't think he realizes he's going to be reading. That's going to be of Scripture.
- [33:36]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Fascinating.
- [33:37]
Courtney E. Martin
Fascinating. It's. It's the camp that his dad went to. But in trying to sort of. So I was like, this is 21 days, you know, da, da, da, da, da. And he's like, mom, you get on plan. You go to Australia, like twice a year for essentially two weeks. I think you'll Be fine. And I was like, all right. I leave you all the time.
- [33:59]
Dr. Lisa Damour
You know how to do this.
- [34:00]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah. But I. He doesn't leave me.
- [34:03]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Right.
- [34:04]
Courtney E. Martin
You don't get to be the center of their lives after a certain really tough.
- [34:08]
Dr. Lisa Damour
It is really tough also coming to terms with the fact that you can be like, deeply loved without being the center, which is what happens between early childhood and later childhood. It's like a really urgent story to. To get rid of because otherwise you cannot allow for the growth for your kids.
- [34:32]
Courtney E. Martin
It is particularly. It's hard. And I think I am. I don't know if it'll be different having sons, but I think for girls and women, and this is Carol Gilligan's work, but there's so much anxiety already in the culture around individuation and growth.
- [34:49]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Right.
- [34:50]
Courtney E. Martin
This idea that women and girls are sort of the feminine is all about relationship and care and nurturance and being together. And that separate. To risk separation is like a type of death. Meanwhile, we. When we push boys, you're all only supposed to be about growth and individuation. They don't know that they're also supposed to come home. I know figuring it out is really hard for both of them.
- [35:19]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yeah.
- [35:19]
Courtney E. Martin
And it's part of, you know, the being a fully human person.
- [35:24]
Dr. Lisa Damour
I do think there is a different kind of feeling, my friends who's who have sons graduating that they're really thinking about. Like, I know what happens when sons leave.
- [35:35]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah.
- [35:36]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Like it's different. Which is just. It's its own. Let's just be depressed.
- [35:41]
Courtney E. Martin
I know, but how much of it is. It's interesting thing, but how much of it is just versus nature? And I think so much of it is a culture of don't leave me. You'll be killed.
- [35:52]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Right. Yeah. Ugh.
- [35:54]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
And now for a quick break. Okay. I don't even need to do this ad because you guys know how good skims is. Do I really need to tell you? But it's so awesome. And I've been a skims fanatic since skims emerged, but I want to tell you specifically that they have a Fits Everybody collection. That is awesome. So if you're getting presents for teenagers or for yourself, go get the Fits Everybody collection. And after you place your order, they really like to know that we sent you. So select podcast in the survey and be sure to select Raising Good Humans podcast in the dropdown menu that follows. Which I know is kind of a big ask, because why do you want to take that extra second? But it's A good way to support the show. And if you're looking for the perfect gifts for everyone on your list, the skims holiday shop is now open@6skims.com okay, I want to just pitch the fits, everybody. Here's why.
- [36:58]
Dr. Lisa Damour
It's like a second skin. You can't see it under clothes. It's so easy and it's so comfortable.
- [37:05]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
And also if you have like a stay at home, relaxing vibe going on, but you also don't want to look sloppy. They have fantastic bras and bralettes that.
- [37:21]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Are kind of like no underwire, but enough support.
- [37:24]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Go forth and get skims. So this episode is brought to you in part by Saks Fifth Avenue. All right. We're talking a lot about holiday shopping because it's holiday shopping season and Saks is also an awesome place to get things. Saks is such an easy way to find holiday gifts. And also great outfits for you and bring joy and, you know, it's Saks, it's like old school, original holiday.
- [37:55]
Saks is part of like Christmas in New York City.
- [38:00]
Dr. Lisa Damour
I always think of just like the beautiful windows.
- [38:03]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Anyway, go find fun things. There's so much to get from Saks. They are having crazy sales right now. I'm shopping too much, I will admit it.
- [38:14]
Dr. Lisa Damour
But I feel like it's sales so it, it works out.
- [38:20]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
And also they have such good clothing.
- [38:24]
Dr. Lisa Damour
And they have a great way to get it without having to leave the house as well.
- [38:28]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
But you can go to the store anyway. Do it however you do it. But go to Saks.com because you'll find stuff. Saks Fifth Avenue has everything from presents to yourself that are elegant and elevated to cute things for young people to chic gifts for your man, whatever. They've got it all. In fact, I gotta go because I have to get back to my shopping online. I'm that person.
- [38:57]
Dr. Lisa Damour
So, other tools. Yeah. From this journal, which I just think they're so concrete and it's just like.
- [39:05]
Courtney E. Martin
Facts, stories, figuring out the story, then moving in along process.
- [39:10]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yeah, it is very. These are very. I mean, they're not simple and that you're thinking about, but it's simple. But it's simple and doable. And it, it's like when, when people say, like psychologists often say that you sort of need to come to terms with your own story in order to develop these healthy relationships with your kids. But how you do that is like very ambiguous.
- [39:39]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah.
- [39:40]
Dr. Lisa Damour
And this is very concrete.
- [39:42]
Courtney E. Martin
Very concrete. And it's quite fast. And the thing that's amazing about The. The process is that we. We have a. You do it again and again for each sin. And then at the end of each sin, we have these shift moves which are specific to lust or gluttony or envy. You know, wanting exercises and getting more into projection for envy, for example. And some of the research around bodies and love for gluttony, you know, compliment, like bringing more attention to your body doesn't necessarily help, but recognizing all the things that your body does for you can. Yeah, as one small example. But once you do this process and it sort of in you, you can just do it over and over again because we are onions. And you'll deal with the story. And another one, the deeper one, continues to pop up. But even the simple facts versus stories. We did a workshop in New York recently for 45 minutes. And you can do it with a friend, and you can do it with a stranger, and you break up into a pair. And for 60 seconds you go. And then the other person goes. And you essentially do this, a story generation off of a fact. And you say, essentially someone asks, you tell me a fact about you, and then you say the fact. Now tell me a story that you make up about that fact. And then you do it. And then they thank you.
- [41:07]
Dr. Lisa Damour
They're not allowed to offer, like, no advice.
- [41:10]
Courtney E. Martin
No advice, no fixing, which is very difficult.
- [41:13]
Dr. Lisa Damour
You're like, I could. I could fix this. Yeah.
- [41:15]
Courtney E. Martin
And you just keep going. And it's amazing what comes up once you get your sort of subconscious or your unconscious going and how deeply you can come to know someone else in the span of 60 seconds. And as you. As we just mentioned, also this tendency, like, as soon as you feel discomfort with what someone is telling you, to, like, comfort, console, coach, refute, commiserate. It's a very interesting process.
- [41:45]
Dr. Lisa Damour
It's also just. This is like either a good habit or an annoying habit. That's the story I'm telling myself.
- [41:52]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
But.
- [41:54]
Dr. Lisa Damour
But it's also a really good. It's good training for how to be there for our kids when they tell us anything.
- [42:01]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah.
- [42:02]
Dr. Lisa Damour
But I think we should do it right now.
- [42:03]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah, let's do it. Do you want to do a story? Yeah.
- [42:05]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Okay, wait for. Then I can't think of one.
- [42:08]
Courtney E. Martin
Tell me a story about your job, about your profession, about your expertise.
- [42:12]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Okay.
- [42:13]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah.
- [42:13]
Dr. Lisa Damour
I feel like, because you know me, that was.
- [42:17]
A. A hard one.
- [42:19]
Courtney E. Martin
Or tell me a fact and then tell me a story that you make up about that fact.
- [42:22]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Okay.
- [42:23]
Dr. Lisa Damour
A fact is, I am a developmental psychologist, and a story is that if I share expertise. I'm making everybody feel so awful, and I have too much audacity to suggest that I have expertise, so I should probably be careful.
- [42:44]
Courtney E. Martin
That's a big story. I understand that story. I feel like it's part of any. It's part of my chapter on pride. And what's the fear that comes up for you when you are in that story with someone?
- [42:58]
Dr. Lisa Damour
You know when you said fear before. Yeah. I. I didn't mention that. Third part, a fact story. What's the fear? I was thinking. Oh, that's the really hard part.
- [43:09]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah, the fear.
- [43:11]
Dr. Lisa Damour
What is my fear?
- [43:12]
Courtney E. Martin
Is it fear of lots of approval? Is it that you're worried someone will judge you and dislike you based on what you say?
- [43:20]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yeah, it probably is. Yeah. Because otherwise why would I care so much?
- [43:23]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah. What are the. Some of the criticisms that you get when you're in that story? Like when you offer advice to someone in terms of. When you, You're. When you center that fear, what are you saying that they don't like?
- [43:36]
Dr. Lisa Damour
I think there are two parts of it. One, and they're. They're kind of inconsistent, which is one is the fear that they're thinking, who do you think you are? But the other is the fear that I'm going to be like the people that I'm thinking, who do you think you are?
- [43:53]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah.
- [43:54]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yeah.
- [43:54]
Courtney E. Martin
Well, the who do you think you are? Is huge. I mean, this goes again back to. And I want to come back to your story, but in honor. Best behavior in the pride chapter. Essentially, it's about the playbook and the way that we execute women who are visible, who dare to be seen again, who distinguish themselves from the group.
- [44:12]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Oh, it sounds awful.
- [44:13]
Courtney E. Martin
You say, like, I actually do know more about this.
- [44:16]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yeah.
- [44:17]
Courtney E. Martin
Because I've spent. I don't know how long it took you to get your Ph.D. seven years.
- [44:20]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yeah.
- [44:20]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah.
- [44:21]
Courtney E. Martin
And we do it primarily, most visibly, to celebrities and female founders and anyone who's. Who's famous in some capacity. But it's a playbook and we've all imbibed it and we all participate in it, putting people back in their place.
- [44:35]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah.
- [44:35]
Courtney E. Martin
Who does she think she is? Often. Because it inspires our envy, by the way, why her, not me?
- [44:41]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yeah.
- [44:42]
Courtney E. Martin
And I want that thing that she has. Even though we often. This isn't conscious, we can't recognize that that's actually what's happening.
- [44:49]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Right. But.
- [44:51]
Courtney E. Martin
Oh, I get it. I worry, you know, in that. In that as like a marketing. Former marketing media content person exec who has a ton of experience in that space, including with books and building platforms for people. Whenever I speak the truth, there's this an. This anxiety that comes up after. Well, you could be wrong. And who am I to crush someone's dreams? And. Which is also a story. Right.
- [45:21]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Of like your word is going to crush.
- [45:23]
Courtney E. Martin
My word is going to crush their dreams. And my word carries so much weight that I will stop them from doing whatever it is that they intend to do.
- [45:30]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yeah.
- [45:31]
Courtney E. Martin
And. And, or my word is some sort of spell or incantation that will generate the result. You know what I mean?
- [45:39]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yeah.
- [45:39]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah.
- [45:41]
Dr. Lisa Damour
So now you tell me a fact.
- [45:44]
Courtney E. Martin
That'S in the do. Should we do the same family? Yeah, yeah. I mean one of my fact.
- [45:49]
Dr. Lisa Damour
So a fact is in the pride.
- [45:51]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah. I am an author. A story that I make up about. I have so many stories. So I'll just give you a bunch of my stories. I need to in this world create enough of a presence or platform for myself that I can sell books in order to support myself. Otherwise I need to go and enslave myself in a corporation. I need to. As an author, I need to draw attention to myself in order to be a viable writer. And that's very dangerous. If I draw too much attention to myself, I'll be destroyed. Is a big story for me. I have a big story about if I gain too much influence, people will do what I say and I'll be more of a cult leader than a thought leader.
- [46:43]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yeah.
- [46:43]
Courtney E. Martin
Because all I want is for people to self author their own lives and figure things out for themselves.
- [46:48]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yeah.
- [46:49]
Courtney E. Martin
And so part of me is like, you can, I can give you some tools and some insight, but you gotta do this work yourself. Which is true. But I worry about projection. That's a big story for me. And people giving me too much power. Again, some of these are cuckoo.
- [47:09]
Dr. Lisa Damour
You know what though? I was actually thinking the opposite. But that's probably because I tell myself a lot of the same stories. I was thinking, you know, a lot of these stories as a woman are like, they're so there's. You feel how real they feel.
- [47:24]
Courtney E. Martin
Yes. Existential.
- [47:27]
Dr. Lisa Damour
So then it's really hard when you're. When the stories sound ridiculous. It's easier, I think.
- [47:33]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah.
- [47:34]
Dr. Lisa Damour
But when the stories are like, I mean, yeah, it's true. You do want someone to author their own lives. I do want a parent to feel autonomous in their parenting and not dependent. And also I want to provide support, tools, whatever. Right. It's not that dissimilar.
- [47:50]
Courtney E. Martin
No.
- [47:51]
Dr. Lisa Damour
And it's not. Not a Risk that if you do, you go too far. You could move into a category of.
- [47:59]
Courtney E. Martin
What I would say about you. And just one of the many reasons why I love you so deeply and so many people love you is that there's nothing about you that's cultivating. You're not. You're not a guru.
- [48:11]
Dr. Lisa Damour
No, I'm not.
- [48:12]
Courtney E. Martin
And you're not trying to create. You're not trying to hook people on sort of a guru status. Do what I say.
- [48:19]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Right.
- [48:19]
Courtney E. Martin
Follow this script. I'm going to dictate exactly how you maneuver through this encounter in order to get the outcome that you want. If anything, that's antithetical to what you stand for in the world, which is like, let's all take a deep breath and here's what we know, and we're mostly going to get it right. And we're going to fumble a lot. And anxiety about messing it up is probably more detrimental to your relationship with your child and your own mental health than it is to any potential outcome.
- [48:52]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah, yeah.
- [48:53]
Dr. Lisa Damour
And could have been my ghostwriter. Could you write a book for me?
- [48:59]
Courtney E. Martin
So, okay, so you could say in that sense, oh, well, it's because I have this big story. That's what's keeping me safe.
- [49:06]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Like, right.
- [49:06]
Courtney E. Martin
Absent this story, I would be some runaway renegade, you know, developmental psychologist. I don't think that's true. But that's part of the process is then saying, is this. I see why I have this story. To keep my ego in check.
- [49:21]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Right.
- [49:22]
Courtney E. Martin
And it's part of my personality. And it felt important and it served a purpose. And now maybe I'm ready to have less anxiety about speaking up and sharing what I know. And I actually know a lot. And that's been my experience in the last even few years where I'm like, I'm not actually a precocious teenager anymore.
- [49:40]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Right.
- [49:40]
Courtney E. Martin
I've lived.
- [49:41]
Dr. Lisa Damour
You don't have to hide these things anymore.
- [49:43]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah, I have some wisdom.
- [49:45]
Dr. Lisa Damour
So is there an a practice where you kind of could or should take a story to its extreme where you can look at this sort of if it's feeling too reasonable, like, if your story sounds too reasonable, it's not fact, but it's definitely possible fact. Is there a benefit to sort of stretching it further and further?
- [50:05]
Courtney E. Martin
That's where I would like in part of the process, like, okay, teach us a class on your story.
- [50:10]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Right.
- [50:10]
Courtney E. Martin
Tell us how to make sure that this story is affirmed and true. And so tell us what we need to do to make sure that we're not over expressing Our own expertise. Right. And so I'm sure in that class maybe you're like filling it with disclaimers.
- [50:26]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yes, a million disclaimers.
- [50:29]
Courtney E. Martin
A million disclaimers. And you're doing a big dance so that people don't think you're too full of yourself.
- [50:36]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Right, Right.
- [50:37]
Courtney E. Martin
And when you do it, when you make it really big, if you go out and you, you. And the idea of this workbook is like, you can do it to the bathroom mirror. I think you should do it with a group of friends because it's really funny.
- [50:48]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
That's a great idea.
- [50:49]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yeah. And also what a great way for a bunch of women to get together and connect.
- [50:55]
Courtney E. Martin
Connect, do some really deep work, laugh, reflect back to each other. Because part of it is having an audience and just sort of seeing what you're up to and making it so big that you're like, that's hilarious. But I do all of these things. So like when I teach a class on, let's say I'm going to teach a class right now on don't draw too much attention to yourself so that you don't get canceled. It's like, okay, so you, obviously your livelihood depends on people listening to your podcast. However, you just want to make sure that you do really low grade lo fi assets, like no makeup, crappy camera work, because you don't want people to think that you're too.
- [51:34]
Dr. Lisa Damour
You put so much effort.
- [51:36]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah. Like, just so you do all the work, but then undermine your own marketing capacity so that you look humble and you look approachable and you look relatable and therefore your clips are probably not going to get watched or picked up. But that's okay. Because yes, you're doing this for your livelihood, but you don't want anyone to think that you think you're so such hot shit.
- [52:01]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Right.
- [52:02]
Courtney E. Martin
That's more important. And so make sure that you are undermining yourself at every step of the process to make sure that you don't meet your goal. Or if you meet your goal, you only meet it in like the most understated, humble way. And people are appreciating you for your humility while loving you. And just hope and pray that that works in today's social media environment.
- [52:28]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Wherever it doesn't work.
- [52:29]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah. Doing like incredibly beautifully produced talk shows.
- [52:33]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Right.
- [52:34]
Courtney E. Martin
But your crappy bedroom definitely is better for your own ego and your own safety. So that would be like, that would be your class. Yeah. And I could keep going about all the other things that you do, but you start to see, like this is ridiculous. Like, why do a podcast that you.
- [52:52]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Don'T want anyone to?
- [52:52]
Courtney E. Martin
That you don't want anyone to. You don't really want to allow yourself to get big enough to get destroyed. So you'll just keep it so small that maybe there's no point in doing it in the first place.
- [53:02]
Dr. Lisa Damour
I did notice a video that you did the other day where you had red lipstick on and you loved it and I loved it. I was like, thank you. Thank you for taking the time to put lipstick on before you spoke to me. I really loved that.
- [53:16]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
And now for a quick break. Holiday treats and hectic schedules definitely don't.
- [53:22]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Have to derail anything.
- [53:24]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
So if you want like a great little snack Groons helps you fill nutritional gaps. You can enjoy every moment. They're just like little snack packs that look like gummy bears, except they're not. And if you haven't heard me talk about grins before, I don't know where you've been. But they're a convenient, comprehensive formula packed into a snack pack of gummies. So it's not a multivitamin. So not a greens gummy. It's not a prebiotic. It's all of those things and then some at a fraction of the price. And they taste good and it's just like a little daily snack pack of gummies. So, you know, in between all of the ridiculously unhealthy stuff you're having, just grab a pack of groons. They have it for kids and adults. They're vegan and nut free and gluten free and dairy free and no artificial colors and no artificial flavors. And grooms have like 20 plus vitamins and minerals and 60 ingredients. So I mean, you know, you're not.
- [54:23]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Getting it at all.
- [54:23]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
I would love for all of us to get all of our nutrients without supplements and, you know, but anyway, I'm committed to anything that has a gummy texture. I can't do vitamins unless they're chewy gummies. Not that these are vitamins. These are combination the whole thing get up to 52% off with the code humansoons. Co that's code humans r u n s dot co. As a Kendra Scott partner, I'm sharing with you how I make this holiday season special. Kendra Scott is your destination for holiday jewelry gifting with presents for everyone on your list. Okay, maybe not everyone because I don't.
- [55:10]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Think my stepson or my husband are.
- [55:13]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Into Kendra Scott, but so many people on your list. The Kendra Scott holiday collection is full of beautiful pieces across fashion, demi, fine and fine jewelry that are ready to shop. So you can also design your very own custom jewelry piece through their color bar, both in stores and online. And actually, I love that you can kind of think about, for example, your children's ages and if you have children who are into jewelry but they should not have fine jewelry, there's Demi Fine. And if they're just not ready for Demi Fine, get fashion because it's so affordable and there's just a whole range. But for you and for me, I got fine jewelry and I got little heart pink heart earrings. You can check those out online. And you make the season, you're going to get whatever you want. Make it special. Doesn't have to be with things, but if you are going to get things, these are fun things to get. Visit Kendra Scott.com gifts and use the code RGH20 at checkout for 20% off one full price. Jewelry item exclusions do apply. It expires December 31, 2025. That's K E N D R A S c o t t.com gifts and the code is RGH20.
- [56:33]
Dr. Lisa Damour
I do think there was an exercise in writing a book and publishing a book and promoting a book and having to do the thing that is so frankly humiliating, which is ask other women for help.
- [56:47]
Courtney E. Martin
Yes.
- [56:48]
Dr. Lisa Damour
And it was so cool that every woman I asked was like, and didn't ask yourself included, was like, thank you for giving me the opportunity to be supportive of you.
- [57:01]
Courtney E. Martin
Yes.
- [57:02]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Like, it's our pleasure as women to do things for each other. But the story, I think, has not been that. It's been, you know, let's not, let's like, if I lift you, it will dim me.
- [57:15]
Courtney E. Martin
Yes. It gets into scarcity big time. If you get this, then I don't get this.
- [57:19]
Dr. Lisa Damour
If right.
- [57:20]
Courtney E. Martin
People, if I have you on my podcast, people are going to not listen to pulling the thread. They're going to go and listen to raising good humans because there are only so many listening hours available.
- [57:29]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yeah.
- [57:29]
Courtney E. Martin
Men are not governed by this way at all. And they are benefit tremendously from supporting each other. It's just not part of their psychology. But for women it is intense. And to go to your this idea of wanting this is a big thing, I think, is that we want support, but we don't know how to ask for it. And we're worried that we're sort of putting people out or putting them in an uncomfortable position and we want them to see what we want and to address the want without needing to be asked. And so we put all of our Wanting into covert form. You see this a lot in our circles and just women sort of out there in the world. It's this. I don't want to call it manipulative because it's not conscious, I think, but it's this, like, oh, I'll just go and try and do things for this person so that they'll reciprocate.
- [58:23]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yeah.
- [58:24]
Courtney E. Martin
And so you're doing this sort of COVID campaign instead of even asking.
- [58:30]
Dr. Lisa Damour
I also think it's helpful. Just thinking about last week, just like, asking a mom to give a ride to my daughter because I had to be in another place and there was no one else to pick her up. And I was like, this is so crazy how just that feels like I am asking for the moon. And I offered, like, for this ride, I will do 10 rides.
- [59:02]
Courtney E. Martin
Like, isn't that interesting?
- [59:03]
Dr. Lisa Damour
It was so, so bizarre. But at the same time, if I can be helpful to someone.
- [59:09]
Courtney E. Martin
Yes.
- [59:09]
Dr. Lisa Damour
I feel so good. I'm like, I am a hero. Of course I'll give you or get a ride. I'm so excited to hang out with them. But, like, the idea of asking for that felt like it was both asking too much and also, like, undermining my parent skill.
- [59:26]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah.
- [59:27]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Which is so silly.
- [59:28]
Courtney E. Martin
What I found. I don't know if this has happened to you, but. And maybe. But I found other parents in the. Like, I. What they tend to do or what I've noticed sometimes happening is that they make it the kid's idea instead of just saying, hey, can you help us out? Like, we don't have any childcare. Can our child go home with you?
- [59:49]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yeah.
- [59:50]
Courtney E. Martin
They'll say, oh, I heard that, you.
- [59:52]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Know, the kids want.
- [59:54]
Courtney E. Martin
The kids want this play date at your house. Isn't that weird? But I think it. Again, it goes to the same thing of. I can't just. I'm too ashamed to just say, hey, I'm in a bind. Can you. Which would be much more compelling to me.
- [60:10]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Oh, yeah. Because then you get to help someone in a bind.
- [60:12]
Courtney E. Martin
You get to help someone. Yeah. Rather than what? Yeah.
- [60:15]
Dr. Lisa Damour
I think this is just an offering to mothers listening. Just ask.
- [60:21]
Courtney E. Martin
Just ask. It's really hard, but the more we practice and the more we're really transparent with each other, I think it's. I think it's affirming and good for all of us.
- [60:31]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Also, ask in front of your kids. Like, I was thinking, how are they supposed. Some of the things I think about as my daughter's going off to be in the world is like, will she know when to ask or will she think, oh, you're supposed to have it all together and to ask for help is going to somehow. Yeah. Diminish your amazing accomplishments?
- [60:51]
Courtney E. Martin
No, I think that that's what we model for our kids, largely. And meanwhile, I feel like men. Not to speak in really broad strokes, but there's just not the same anxiety at all about both asking and expecting assistance and support.
- [61:07]
Dr. Lisa Damour
No, that is. It's mesmerizing to me.
- [61:09]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah.
- [61:09]
Dr. Lisa Damour
It's so true.
- [61:10]
Courtney E. Martin
May we all operate more like men who have no compunction at all about putting people out in a way that's like, sometimes fine, you know?
- [61:22]
Dr. Lisa Damour
No, I think it's amazing. I think it's. I. I think of just like a dad. And again, of course, these are sweeping generalizations, but let's just enjoy them.
- [61:31]
Courtney E. Martin
I mean, why not? It's so fun.
- [61:34]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Also, like, I want to speak to all parents and caregivers, but 95 of the people listening are mothers.
- [61:42]
Courtney E. Martin
Isn't that interesting?
- [61:43]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah.
- [61:44]
Dr. Lisa Damour
So I'm so excited that there are dads listening and other caregivers, but I also want to honor the fact that 95% of the people listening are living this experience.
- [61:54]
Courtney E. Martin
Yes.
- [61:55]
Dr. Lisa Damour
But when a dad. And by the way, my husband is a widower, so he's.
- [62:02]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
He.
- [62:02]
Dr. Lisa Damour
He has had to experience the like, both roles and the like, he had to ask for help constantly. And it was, it was. So it is such a pleasure for people to help him, but it's such a different thing because he was a father who experienced the loss.
- [62:26]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah.
- [62:27]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Of the mother. And so it's just a very different kind of asking for help and giving help and, and all of that. But wait, what was my point of these sweeping generalizations? Oh, that if a man. And again, the. I just used an example of a man who doesn't have. Who's always the guy doing it by himself. But most of the time, if a man, like, has the day with their child, they're like, of course going to ask people to do things.
- [62:56]
Courtney E. Martin
Yes.
- [62:57]
Dr. Lisa Damour
And that's just like, a given. And also people are offering it. This is more, you know, true for younger kids, but I just think, you know, if you were going away for the weekend, I feel like many people would figure out all the different things that need to happen to help your husband. I don't really know if this is true about you guys specifically, but generally speaking, whereas if he were going away for the weekend, it's another day in your life. It's not. The people aren't like, how will you do this.
- [63:26]
Courtney E. Martin
How will you survive? No, my husband is. We both are very familiar with doordash and he's a. He's even more introverted than I am. But my dad, even when my mom goes away now my dad, it's like the. The invitations for dinner stacked up and sort of essentially adult play dates because my dad makes sure he's not alone. He doesn't like to be alone, and he set some of them up. And I think my mom is like, I'll be out of town. Can you take. Take Paul to a movie? I mean, he's. It's not incapacitated in any way, but invariably his. His social schedule is locked by my mom. So I think this is. It is part of it. I was thinking about it too. Like the context of asking for help is. I think that so often we're stopped. And there's some stuff in the workbook about this too, both on both sides, but we're. So we're stopped because we're terrified of hearing no. And we also are. At least I'll speak for myself here. I'm. I'm terrible at saying no.
- [64:31]
Dr. Lisa Damour
I'm really good at saying no.
- [64:32]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Oh, you are?
- [64:33]
Dr. Lisa Damour
You want some inspiration?
- [64:34]
Courtney E. Martin
Well, I include a bunch of scripts in the book for how to practice saying no.
- [64:39]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Give us a couple scripts in the book.
- [64:40]
Courtney E. Martin
This sounds amazing and I would love please hit me up in the future, but unfortunately I can't. Unfortunately, I won't be able to make it. Thank you so much for thinking of me. This sounds like a really amazing project. Unfortunately, I'm over committed, so I need to decline. What would be another nice one that's slightly different, even just like, oh, I'm. I wish I could help, but unfortunately I'm obligated elsewhere. But thank you. Thank you for thinking of me.
- [65:12]
Dr. Lisa Damour
I'm just laughing because my best friend Dana, every time I get a request of any kind that I can't do or like an invitation or whatever. A lot of times, not every time, but a lot of times she will be getting. I know she's getting the same one.
- [65:29]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah.
- [65:30]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Particularly if it's a social thing or whatever. And I. I'll. After I say no. Not that I'm like walking around the world saying no all the time, but just I don't have the chip in me that's like chewing my nails over having to say no. Because I know that it's probably because to say yes would take away from something with my kids or something that I had already planned on doing or whatever. So I Forwarded her. I forward her every time. My. No.
- [65:57]
Courtney E. Martin
So she can copy it.
- [65:59]
Dr. Lisa Damour
No. So she can feel it. Like, the shame that she won't do it. Like, I know she's gonna say yes no matter what.
- [66:06]
Courtney E. Martin
Isn't that so interesting?
- [66:07]
Dr. Lisa Damour
I just think we just have this fun thing. And she's like. She's like, I just want to have that for a day. Like, I just want to be able to say that for a day. But it's just, like, too hard for her to imagine that other people might be disappointed in her. She's just. So she's a better person than I am.
- [66:24]
Courtney E. Martin
No, but she's just overriding her own internal gps. And a big part, I think, of growing up, or ideally, is where we can get to a point where we can even bring our bodies into the equation and run it through your body. Is this a yes for me or is this a no? Yeah. When I think about doing this thing that I'm feeling compelled to do, either by social pressure or because maybe it's a good thing for my career.
- [66:50]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yeah.
- [66:50]
Courtney E. Martin
Am I going to want to do this next week? And even just building in a pause because I used to. I used to be her. And just immediately, sure, of course you'll.
- [67:00]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Figure out how to make it work, even if you have no time.
- [67:02]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah. And I'll just reflexively say yes. And a lot of things sound fun and interesting in the moment. Of course.
- [67:08]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah.
- [67:08]
Courtney E. Martin
But I now. I mandate for myself for anything that's a significant request. 24 hours.
- [67:15]
Dr. Lisa Damour
That is a great habit.
- [67:16]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah.
- [67:17]
Dr. Lisa Damour
I probably should mandate that for myself because I'm inclined. I'm so panicked that I will overextend because that was a very bad habit of mine that I will. My default is to say no. And I probably should go. I should give myself 24 hours because I might miss opportunities that would have been really delightful.
- [67:36]
Courtney E. Martin
Maybe. But maybe you're just protecting yourself. But how is it so easy? Where did you learn to say no? How did you.
- [67:42]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
That's.
- [67:43]
Dr. Lisa Damour
I don't know.
- [67:43]
Courtney E. Martin
I. Countercultural.
- [67:44]
Dr. Lisa Damour
I know. I didn't even notice. Except that both my husband and my best friend are like, that is the weirdest superpower. And it's not that I do it. It's that I don't feel anything afterwards. Like, I don't have that. Like, they would both go into such a shame spiral that it wouldn't be worth saying no even if they save themselves the time or energy or effort. By the way, I'm not saying this so that people don't Ask me anything. I don't want to be like a lone sad sack who's just like saying no everywhere. But it's just because I also say yes quite a bit. It's just. I don't know why. I, I think if, I really think, if I really unpack it, it's that my father always said yes, but he very often felt no. Not only felt no, but didn't follow through.
- [68:33]
Courtney E. Martin
Oh, yes.
- [68:33]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Like, he so couldn't say no even though the answer was no. That he would just say yes, but then not follow through, which was so disappointing. And I think that's probably. I hadn't thought about it before, but I think I'm like, I would rather say no now than disappoint at the 11th hour.
- [68:51]
Courtney E. Martin
That's beautiful, actually. But that's an interesting story in a helpful way.
- [68:56]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Right? Yeah. Yeah.
- [68:58]
Courtney E. Martin
I, My mom, my parents are so like, you commit and then you do it. That I compel. I force myself to keep my word, even in moments where I'm really mad at myself.
- [69:12]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah.
- [69:13]
Courtney E. Martin
And so learning how to say no at this late stage of my life has been somewhat of a survival skill. Just because I would over commit and take on projects.
- [69:23]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Of course.
- [69:24]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah. Like consulting anything where someone asks and professes to need me. And instead of saying, this is not interesting to me or I do not have time, I, it's why I have eight jobs. But, and, but I'm not gonna have nine.
- [69:41]
Dr. Lisa Damour
But that is really hard. But it is a skill. And I, I, I'm glad to now know kind of what the root of it is. Is that I'm afraid that I will disappoint people ultimately. So I'd rather just like, out of the gate. So it's actually not because I'm trying to be harsh.
- [69:59]
Courtney E. Martin
No. It's actually a very beautiful service for people. And it makes, I think a no is Makes me trust people even more.
- [70:07]
Dr. Lisa Damour
I, I think it's a really good practice for mothers because this is, it's really, really hard. But also it lets you save your yeses.
- [70:14]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah.
- [70:15]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Like, then when they're there, you get to really be present.
- [70:19]
Courtney E. Martin
Well, think about what you're modeling for your kids.
- [70:21]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Right.
- [70:21]
Courtney E. Martin
If you're either overriding every instinct in yourself to say no and then you're full of resentment and irritation and, or exhausted and overextended. Right. That's not a great example. And nor is it, I think when my kid, when I get overexcited, my kids are like, where are you going?
- [70:42]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Like, right, right.
- [70:43]
Courtney E. Martin
Like, can you stay Home.
- [70:45]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Which is why you could tell yourself this no is a yes to a night with the kids or a couple of hours in the morning to do whatever.
- [70:54]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah.
- [70:54]
Dr. Lisa Damour
So do you wanna. We need to wrap up because this is a four hour episode. But will you talk about that tool?
- [71:03]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah. So the drama triangle, it's a concept from the 70s. That Steven Cartman, I think he had different names for it. But the way that Courtney coaches it is in line with. It's this group called Conscious Leadership Group. And it's this idea that when you go below the line, I'll give you the definition of below the line and above the line. But when you're below the line, you see the world is happening to you. It's essentially a place of powerlessness. You're the victim of circumstances in the world. And many. We go below the line all the time. So there's no version where you get to live exclusively above the line. When you are above the line, you see yourself as the crater of your own experience and is having power over how you see the world and how you show up in the world and how the world responds to you, which is just more fun.
- [71:49]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah.
- [71:49]
Courtney E. Martin
But I think we get a lot of hits off of being below the line as well.
- [71:54]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Right.
- [71:54]
Courtney E. Martin
And being affirmed as sort of in our own victimhood.
- [71:57]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yeah.
- [71:58]
Courtney E. Martin
And so when you're below the line, the drama triangle shows up as, you know, there's a victim, there's a villain and there's a hero. And this is like marketing 101 really for. I don't think it's a good way to market, but it's part of our culture. But when you're below the line, you're like, this is the person who's. This is the villain, this is the person to blame who's creating sort of my own victimhood.
- [72:26]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah.
- [72:26]
Courtney E. Martin
And you can play like, I like to be the hero, you probably like to be the hero.
- [72:31]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Mind it.
- [72:31]
Courtney E. Martin
So we all sort of have a preferred place in this map, usually victim, hero. Nobody is like, I like to be the villain.
- [72:38]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah.
- [72:39]
Courtney E. Martin
But once you understand that as a mechanism, you start to under. You start to see people thinking in real life and you'll hear it in friends, like when they get into that helpless, like it's all him, it's all her.
- [72:51]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah.
- [72:52]
Courtney E. Martin
They're below the line and they're in the drama triangle. And again, it's normal, but it's really useful to see it and once you see it and, and to be fair, to be conscious about it. So sometimes I'll be talking to a friend who now knows the drama triangle. And I'll say, I need to go below the line and get into the drama triangle. Yeah. And I just need to rant and, like, be below the line.
- [73:13]
Dr. Lisa Damour
It's so fun.
- [73:13]
Courtney E. Martin
It is so fun. But it's also really healthy then to say, I know what I'm doing here.
- [73:18]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yes.
- [73:19]
Dr. Lisa Damour
And then. And I'm going to move above the line and see what it looks like.
- [73:24]
Courtney E. Martin
But part of it is, like. And in the workbook, we explain how you can even just sort of stand up and do it and move around the drama triangle. But when you make it big and fun, you're like, oh, I get it. I see all of these scripts and stories that are running my mind, running my thinking here so that I can be affirmed.
- [73:43]
Dr. Lisa Damour
I. I love all of this. Like, every bit of this is just so cool. I want to talk about this for days. And we will continue privately.
- [73:52]
Courtney E. Martin
Let's just. We'll take a nap. Power nap.
- [73:54]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Yeah.
- [73:54]
Courtney E. Martin
Drink a Celsius and keep going more.
- [73:57]
Dr. Lisa Damour
I've given up Celsius.
- [73:58]
Courtney E. Martin
I've never had a Celsius.
- [73:59]
Dr. Lisa Damour
I loved it so much. But I think it's really bad for you. I mean, obviously, if you look at the ingredients. But I went. I had a moment. So people now have really good tools just from this conversation, and they can go get this workbook. But can you just. Because this word is said so often, just like, as a closer, say what reclaiming is for real Reclaiming.
- [74:23]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah.
- [74:24]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Because that's what ultimately this is about.
- [74:26]
Courtney E. Martin
Yeah. No, I, like, love that question. I think that. I think that it's about getting a handle on these stories again that we take as fact and that run our lives. And I think that we think of ourselves as these fully autonomous, rational beings who are expressing our personality or behaving in the way it's always been and the way it always should be. And to me, reclaiming is just. I don't even like the word control, really. But to get a handle on what's driving us and to interrogate a little bit and say, is this helpful? I understand why I've done this. I understand why I've been operating my life like this. It makes a ton of sense. Good job, self. But now can I take the story back, put it down, or refashion it in some way and then choose a different story to run my life for a little bit?
- [75:30]
Dr. Lisa Damour
I. I love.
- [75:46]
Courtney E. Martin
Please note that this episode may contain.
- [75:48]
Dr. Lisa Damour
Paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.