Validation: The Skill That Changes Everything with Dr. Caroline Fleck

Summary

Summary of "Validation: The Skill That Changes Everything" with Dr. Caroline Fleck on Raising Good Humans Podcast

Raising Good Humans is a podcast dedicated to providing realistic and trustworthy support to parents. In the February 28, 2025 episode titled "Validation: The Skill That Changes Everything," host Dr. Aliza Pressman engages in an insightful conversation with Dr. Caroline Fleck, a psychologist and adjunct clinical instructor at Stanford. The episode delves into the concept of validation, a cornerstone of Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT), and its profound impact on parent-child relationships.

Introduction to Dr. Caroline Fleck and Validation

Dr. Caroline Fleck is introduced as an expert in evidence-based treatments, particularly DBT, which has traditionally been used to treat severe clinical disorders like borderline personality disorder, suicidality, and self-harm. Dr. Pressman highlights Dr. Fleck's new book, Validation: How the Skill Set That Revolutionized Psychology Will Transform Your Relationships, Increase Your Influence, and Change Your Life, which translates DBT validation techniques into practical tools for everyday parenting.

Notable Quote:

Dr. Aliza Pressman [00:10]: "What inspired her new book Validation is what has been used by therapists to help so many people, and she's created a fantastic guidebook for just everyday better relationships, particularly better relationships with your kids."

Understanding DBT and Its Evolution

Dr. Fleck explains that DBT was developed over 30 years ago to treat borderline personality disorder, a condition characterized by severe and often dangerous behaviors. Before DBT, there were no evidence-based treatments for such conditions, and DBT introduced a balance between the need for change and acceptance.

Notable Quote:

Dr. Caroline Fleck [06:06]: "DBT balanced the emphasis on change with a parallel emphasis on acceptance. At the core of DBT is the message of, 'you're doing the best you can and you need to do better.'"

The Importance of Validation in Parenting

Dr. Pressman and Dr. Fleck discuss how validation can transform everyday interactions between parents and children, especially during challenging moments like teenage angst or conflicts over autonomy. Validation helps children feel understood and seen without parents immediately jumping to problem-solving or changing behaviors.

Notable Quote:

Dr. Caroline Fleck [10:10]: "Our inclination as parents is to problem solve and jump in with suggestions, but if our kids don't feel understood emotionally, they'll get defensive and shut down."

Personal Story: Dr. Fleck's Experience with Breast Cancer

Dr. Fleck shares a deeply personal story about how her battle with breast cancer affected her relationship with her daughter, Havana. She describes a poignant moment where her attempt to change was met with her daughter's desire for her "old mom." This experience underscored the importance of validation over change.

Notable Quote:

Dr. Caroline Fleck [12:14]: "I realized I was trying to change how she thinks about the situation, which is the exact opposite of what she wants to hear – 'somebody please acknowledge my reality.'"

Practical Applications: Balancing Validation and Problem Solving

The conversation explores how parents can balance validating their children's emotions with the necessary action to address behaviors or situations. Dr. Fleck outlines scenarios where validation can lead to effective communication and eventual problem-solving.

Notable Quote:

Dr. Caroline Fleck [21:50]: "Once you've validated the emotion, you can gently transition to problem-solving. For example, asking, 'What can we do better next time?' allows the child to engage in finding solutions."

Levels of Validation: The Validation Ladder

Dr. Fleck introduces the concept of a "validation ladder," which consists of various levels of validation skills, from basic attention and mirroring to deeper empathy and emotional connection. She emphasizes that higher levels of validation require more skill and carry higher stakes if misapplied.

Notable Quote:

Dr. Caroline Fleck [36:42]: "There are eight steps to validation, ranging from attending and copying to proposing and contextualizing."

Common Misunderstandings and Misuses

The discussion highlights common misconceptions about validation, such as the fear of reinforcing negative behaviors or the worry that validation equates to agreement. Dr. Fleck clarifies that validation focuses on acknowledging emotions without necessarily endorsing behaviors.

Notable Quote:

Dr. Caroline Fleck [28:00]: "All behaviors are not valid. While emotions are valid, the behaviors precipitated by them may not be."

Tools and Steps for Practicing Validation

Dr. Fleck outlines practical steps for parents to incorporate validation into their interactions:

1. Attending - Paying full attention to the child.
2. Copying - Mirroring the child's words or actions.
3. Equalizing - Showing that you understand the logic behind their feelings.
4. Contextualizing - Placing their emotions within a broader context.
5. Proposing - Offering possible thoughts or feelings they might be experiencing.
6. Emoting - Expressing emotions to show empathy.
7. Taking Action - Intervening appropriately after validation.
8. Disclosure - Sharing similar experiences to build connection.

Notable Quote:

Dr. Caroline Fleck [38:10]: "Attending is about paying attention and trying to understand the person's perspective. Copying involves mirroring their words or non-verbals to foster empathy."

Self-Validation for Caregivers

The episode concludes with a segment on the importance of self-validation for parents, providing tools to guide caregivers toward self-compassion and emotional regulation. Dr. Fleck shares her personal self-validation practices, emphasizing the need for parents to care for their own emotional well-being to effectively support their children.

Notable Quote:

Dr. Caroline Fleck [54:40]: "Self-validation requires paying attention to your own emotions, labeling them, repeating them, and self-soothing to maintain emotional balance."

The Critical Role of Validation in Mental Health

Dr. Fleck emphasizes that validation is not only essential for healthy parent-child relationships but also plays a significant role in mental health. An environment that frequently invalidates emotions can contribute to severe psychopathology, as seen in higher rates of suicide and self-harm in communities that experience profound levels of invalidation.

Notable Quote:

Dr. Caroline Fleck [61:11]: "Invalidation is theorized to play a causal role in severe psychopathology of all types, including borderline personality disorder and even psychopathy."

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

The episode wraps up with Dr. Pressman encouraging listeners to embrace validation as a transformative tool in parenting. She underscores that while mastering validation takes practice and may not always be perfect, it offers a hopeful path toward more meaningful and resilient relationships with children.

Notable Quote:

Dr. Aliza Pressman [62:22]: "So everybody needs to get your book Validation. How the skill set that revolutionized psychology will transform your relationships, increase your influence, and change your life."

Final Remarks: The episode concludes with heartfelt reflections on the challenges and rewards of practicing validation. Dr. Fleck acknowledges the complexities involved but remains optimistic about the transformative potential of validation in fostering stronger, more empathetic relationships.

Notable Quote:

Dr. Caroline Fleck [60:13]: "Life is messy and it's ugly and it's beautiful, and validation is where resilience comes from. It is where character is built."

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of the podcast episode, highlighting key discussions, personal insights, practical tools, and the profound impact of validation on both parenting and mental health. By including notable quotes with timestamps and structuring the content into clear sections, the summary provides a rich and engaging overview that is accessible to those who haven't listened to the episode.

Transcript

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

The following podcast is a Dear Media production.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Welcome to Raising Good humans podcast. I'm Dr. Aliza Pressman and I love today's episode. It is with Dr. Caroline Fleck. She's a psychologist and adjunct clinical instructor at Stanford. What I am so excited to share is that she's an expert in evidence based treatments. In particular, the one that we're talking about today is what inspired her new book Validation. And she took this concept that has been around for decades in psychology, used by therapists helping so many people and she's created this fantastic guidebook for just everyday better relationships, particularly better relationships with your kids. This whole episode was super powerful and I think you can take away such concrete strategies. So I'm thrilled to have a listen. And if you enjoy this episode, please write a review. You can go to write to Apple Podcasts, give it a five star rating. Just say a little something about it that you liked so that we can get this out into the world and also so that that I get information about what resonates with you. And of course, as always, you can follow me on Instagram at Raising Good Humans podcast you can get my substack. It's free. Dr. Alisa Pressman substack.com There is a monthly Zoom group that's membership only. It's $4.99 a month, so it's pretty good. And we just do Q and A in in in person, but on Zoom Live once a month. And this week my book the five Principles of Parenting, your Essential guide to Raising Good Humans is out on paperback. So if you were like, oh, I love this book but I'd like to have a small and lighter copy, go grab it or get it as a gift or you know, write a little review on Amazon if you have it already and you liked it. It's super helpful and means so much and it was a New York Times bestseller very much because of all of you. And so I have so much gratitude for the support and I hope you have a wonderful week. Okay, so let me tell you why I'm so excited about your book. In case you wanted another person to be excited about your book, I feel like, and I, I, I'm just so waiting for you to explain all of this to everyone. Dialectical behavioral therapy has been relegated to clinical disorders and therapeutic approaches. But it has the key to so many things as you are going to help us all understand. And I do feel like the zeitgeist of like what's out there in the world is borrowing a lot from dialectical Behavioral therapy, but nobody's given credit to dialectical behavioral therapy. What people might have heard of as DBT or might have never heard of and think that there are all of a sudden these brand new innovative ideas that have been around, long studied and quite effective. And so I was like, oh my God. Dr. Caroline Fleck, thank you for taking this body of research and work that has been so important and translated it to how it can impact all of us and also just given some voice to something that has been beautiful and in existence. Because sometimes we just in this world of kind of social media and whatever, I think we like we needed this. So I want to start with that.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

It's so lovely to hear because you're speaking to like the absolute mission of this book and the, and a lot of the inspiration from it was just observing that like we have this great body of research and all of these skills that for some reason we're only talking about in the context of not even just mental illness, but oftentimes pretty severe, like psychopathology.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

That is really scary to hear about.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Suicidality, self harm, borderline personality disorder, really, really difficult conditions. And yet the skills and strategies were that were developed to treat those conditions generally apply to people across the board. Right. And yet there's just hasn't, it hasn't made that. And my hypothesis is that it has a little something to do with the fact that there's so much stigma still obviously around psychopathology, but particularly some of the conditions that DBT focuses on.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

If you Google dbt, you'd get scared. Maybe when you see self harm, suicidality, borderline personality disorder, like you see these things and you're like, yeah, but I think another thing that's happened is that clinicians have been aware of that and maybe shared some of these tools, but not acknowledged that it's dbt. Maybe in the generous interpretation of that, it's because it's maybe off putting for people and in the less generous, it's because it's just forgetting to acknowledge the beautiful history of understanding this work. So with all that said, I think it's just fabulous that you've done this. And I just want to start with like what is dbt? And then we can reassure people this is, it's rooted in something that might sound quite off putting and is actually this conversation. There's room for other conversations that we could have for DBT in the clinical setting, but this is really about our everyday relationships.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Yeah. So you know, the first part of that kind of what is dbt? DBT Was a treatment that was developed. Now I'm realizing how long it's been. Almost like over 30 years. Right? Like, it was back in the early 90s that this treatment for a condition known as borderline personality disorder, which is character characterized by a lot of significant and often dangerous behaviors up to db, up to the point of dbt, we did not have an evidence based treatment for it. It was considered just like this chronic condition that would never get better. And there was no way you could treat it because some of the behaviors associated with it are so rigid and just so hard to treat clinically. And up until that point, the field was really defined as, you know, right by these very behavioral approaches and cognitive behavioral approaches, which generally focus on change. You know, we're going to change your thoughts to change how you feel, or we'll change your behavior to change outcomes so that that changes how you feel. But the emphasis again was on change, change, change, which is great. If somebody is open to working on change and not super sensitive to feedback, that's fabulous. For anyone who is resistant to change, you know, that trying to get them to change when they don't want to, or in particular when they're feeling judged doesn't turn out well. Like any parent who has ever said to their kid, like, I know what would help you fall. You know, I know what we could do to get you to fall asleep better. The kid's like, no, they thank you. No, you don't just forget it. Right? They're not interested in it. It's not going to land. And the same is true, obviously, for folks with mental illness who may have lost hope and are afraid even to trust that something could help because the devastation of being let down again would be hard to stomach. So what DBT did was it balanced this emphasis on change, right? Change, change behavior, change how you think, with a parallel emphasis on acceptance. So at the core of DBT is this message of, you're doing the best you can and you need to do better. And it's, how do we hold those two things to be true? As the therapist, how do I communicate both of those messages equally? Because if I lean too much in one direction or the other, just much acceptance, the person feels great, they love you, but they don't get better. Too much change, they hate you and they quit. So how do you hold those two simultaneously? And Marsha Linehan, who created dbt, her approach to helping therapists communicate acceptance was through these validation skills that she developed. So, yeah, as DBT therapists, we're really trained up in how do you communicate validation?

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Before I jump to these different ways to address validation, I want to just cling to something that you said of holding those two truths because I think particularly for parents of children who are a little bit more where you're just thinking, I need a different entry point or this isn't working. Especially when you have teenagers and especially as kids are sort of figuring out what is them and you know, wanting more autonomy. That acceptance plus there needs to be some change is the key. So I would love to just address that, like expand that a little bit into some examples in the context of kind of talking to your kids with everyday stuff or big decisions. And then I definitely want us to take some time to go into validation because I think that might actually be the key to all of these kind of tricky interactions that we have with our kids.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

It is, it's funny. So I work, I specialize in working with adolescents often who are struggling with self harm or suicidality. And their parents are obviously very concerned. I am very concerned. And so they come in, you know, I'm the specialist, I'm the one they were referred to. Their kidney is dbt. And I spend the first couple sessions painting my nails with the kid and looking at TikTok videos. And the parent is like, what are you doing? When does the intervention come in? And of course saying this, this is the intervention. I need this person to trust that I understand their world and I need to actually understand and connect with it in a way that resonates with them in order for them to trust anything I have to say about what they should or shouldn't do. And so that extends so broadly across the board with our kids. Right. Like our inclination obviously as parents is to problem solve and to jump in with our amazing suggestions and insights. But if our kiddos don't feel like we understand where they're at emotionally because we're too quick to jump to problem solving, they're going to get defensive, they're going to shut down and they're sure as hell not going to listen. So it is that balance of like, I don't know, you need to, you need some street cred and you need to earn it again and again and again because those, those relationships evolve and those little people keep changing. And so you need to like establish a new relationship almost with each version of them as they grow.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Okay, so how does that work in.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Terms of the validation?

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Yeah, now we can get it to the sort of how, the different, the different pathways to how.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Okay, so I'll Actually, give. This is a very vulnerable example. But I'm just going to roll with it because you just said, give me an example. And I thought, okay, so this is embarrassing. I literally wrote the book on validation and I just messed this up last night. Okay, so, yeah, the story.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

All of us.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Yeah. Yeah. Right. So my daughter. This is. Not to take a tangent, but I was diagnosed with breast cancer right after completing the book. And so it was like, within two weeks. No, I'm sorry. Within two days of finishing the book. I was on. Yeah, I was on a call with my editor, and then I went to get a mammogram and I had breast cancer. The book was delayed for almost two years, and I had the whole gamut. Radiation, chemotherapy, drug after drug after drug. It was a nightmare. And my daughter, she's 11 now, feels and has felt like I'm a different person since having the cancer. And for her, this is very real. It's almost like a body swap scenario. Like, she's just been convinced that I am a different person and nobody else sees it, and it's incredibly frustrating to her, but she just wants her old mom back. Now, between you and I, it is incredibly painful for me to feel like there's nothing I can do to bring. I know I haven't. I have changed in some ways, but my love for her, all these other things are the same, and I can't convey that. And if I'm being super selfish, I'll say also that I feel just, like, punished. And, like, why me? You know, it's. The disease took so much. Why did it have to strain this beautiful thing? And so last night, we're having this really lovely moment. You know, she's just saying, I was missing you all day, Mom. I just want to play with you. And we're snuggling, and then just out of nowhere, she says, I wish you could bring the old you. You back. Could you just try a little harder? Could you just try just for a moment? And I said, in that moment, I am the old me. There's nothing different. And as the words come out of my mouth, I realized I am trying to change how she thinks about the situation, to change how she feels about our relationship, to get it back to where I want it to be. Which is the exact opposite of what this kid wants to hear, right? Which is that, like, somebody please acknowledge my reality. You know, nobody else seems to see this. Everybody else says it's all always the same, but her reality and what she's desperately wanting to feel seen in is this experience she has in which she's basically mourning her mom.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Alone. And so what I could have, should have done, will do tonight is to say because now, mind you, I don't agree with her. I don't. I. I don't agree with that interpretation. I don't think that I am a fundamentally different mother. Sure, I've changed in some ways, but I. I don't think I've changed in the ways that maybe she thinks I do. In her opinion. The day after I got my hair, I lost most of it, and then I shaved it. And after it was shaved, I was different. From that point forward, she said, you were just not the same. You know, she'd want to, like, glue that hair back to my head if she could. But I need to just acknowledge that her emotions are valid. Right. I don't. I don't agree with her thoughts. I don't even agree with her behavior of pushing me away. I don't think that's effective. But her emotions are valid, right? They are based on her experience. And I can validate that. Right. I can validate some part of her experience.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

And so tonight you'll repair the moment from last night and you'll validate that and remind yourself probably that that's just our gig is to blow it and make repairs.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Also, I mean, I see it more than our gig. I see it as like a, A, A great responsibility because I want her to be able to blow it and repair in her life. Right. And like, the only way people learn that is if it's modeled for them.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

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[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Basically, what I want to zoom in on is the emotions feeling all right. And so I can do that by simply reiterating what she said, right? Which is that she misses the old me. I could take it a step further and try and. Okay, so if she misses the old me, what else might she be thinking or feeling? I. I could say something like, you must feel really alone with this. You're the only person that seems to see this and I'm your only mom. So at this point in, in, in my attempts to validate What I'm doing is trying to feel out things that she might be thinking or feeling that haven't quite crystallized for her. It's a little trickier when you're doing that with adults, although there's definitely an art to it. But with children, this is so powerful because they haven't learned necessarily, or, you know, depending on their age, how to identify their emotions, how to self validate, to see that chain of cause and effect that's leading them to where they're at. And so with children, validating in that way, putting words to what they're thinking or feeling is really powerful. It's really empowering, I think. So that's how I would go about it. I would kind of speak to what she said. And if I can build off it without negating or trying to challenge, you know, here are the ways in which I'm still the same.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Where do you transition from validating to considering this other part?

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

The fact that I'm still me. Yeah. So we call this. When do you transition from validation to problem solving? Right. So my kid could. She's come home and has failed her spelling quiz and she says, oh my gosh, I failed. And my inclination is to say, oh, well, let's. Next time, let's review the words in the morning on the way in. That way they'll be fresh. Right?

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Basically saying, let's troubleshoot that. Let's figure out what you could change so that you get a different outcome, so that you feel better. That's what I want to do instead. I need to say, you must be so disappointed. Oh my gosh, you studied so hard. That feels so unfair. I need to do all of that. And once that's landed, once I. And I know it's landed, if I get her engagement, she's talking a little bit more. She's piling on. Yeah. And. And you know, the other kids, they had the words for a whole week. Somehow everyone else got, you know, they're just starting to really engage with you. I let that ride for a little bit. And once I just. You. Once you feel that connection, that little kindling spark, then I might transition to. And what should we do? What can we do better next time? I've basically saying, I see how much this hurts you and I want to protect that. What, what, what do you think would help? Do you think it would help if we reviewed words in the morning? And I'm just really gentle here because it doesn't matter how great my ideas are if she's not listening to them. So if I'm getting pushback, I'm going to drop it and I might circle back a week later. It's all, mm, yeah.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

And is there any point. And then we can go back to more examples of validation and really diving in, hence the title of the book Validation. But is there a point at which people are. Or what is the misunderstanding about validation? Is the misunderstanding about validation about people feeling like if they validate the emotion that somehow they're saying you're I agree with you. Is there a worry that you're coddling emotions because you're saying that feeling is valid? What is the tension about validation? And is there any reality to the idea that we could over validate or misunderstand or misinterpret the breadth of how much we have to validate? That was like 12 questions in one. As I.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

No, that's okay. Let me think. So there's a couple of myths, I would say one or, or concerns. And, and sometimes they're, they're fair, legitimate concerns. One is, is what you alluded to there with I don't want to reinforce. Often it's I don't want to reinforce the behavior that is precipitating or that's following this emotion. Right. So if the kid is angry and then they throw something and then I swoop in and validate their anger or haven't I just reinforced that, that behavior? Maybe, maybe not. I've got a great story around the why, maybe not. But there's, you know, there's. You could, but not necessarily.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

I'm here for it.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

You want to hear my crazy story about this one? Yeah, I'll tell the story and then I'll give my caveat for parents on this. I was working with a client who was very high powered execration at Amazon and she also had some major anger management issues. And so she was referred to me for dbt. And early in our work, her, she comes to me with just what we can all agree is the most obnoxious situation and that is that her neighbors were putting their trash in her trash recycle bin. Right? So that when she went to take it out, it was already filled and her plan was to go over there and just ream them out. And I'm like, no, no, no, let's try using this DBT skill to assert yourself effectively and it'll be fabulous. And she's like, this isn't going to work. But okay. So she tries it. She writes this email using this skill and they respond fabulously and they say, we had no idea. Oh, my gosh. Oh, we're so embarrassed. We'll have you like. Would you like to come over for game night? You know, it's just a beautiful outcome. She's thrilled, I'm thrilled. I'm feeling so effective. Two weeks later, I get a call from the police department at 3am and it's her. And she has. They put their trash in her bin again. So clearly our approach, my approach didn't work. So she took it upon herself to slash their tires.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Oh, Lord.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

In a parking garage. Shared parking garage, because it was at an apartment that she rented where there were security cameras. And then when the police came, she resisted arrest and was taken in. And now I'm getting this call at 3:00 in the morning. Okay. So there's a lot I don't want to reinforce there. My inclination in that moment is to say, what the hell is wrong with you? Why? What were you thinking? Like, these are the first things that come to my mind. And yet if I go down that path, I'm just gonna get defensiveness and resistance instead. What I said was, you must be devastated. Oh, how disappointing. Validation, validation, Validation around the emotions. Just the emotions she felt. I am not saying I am not validating her behavior. I'm not even validating her thought process that this is warranted. I'm just validating the frustration and hurt that preceded her behavior. Okay. With that, the shift and. Oh, my goodness, I just wish I could put together like, a reel of these moments, you know, where you could see, like, the change in this person who is absolutely expecting to be kind of yelled at or called out. And just the relief in their voice to be able to say, like, yeah, you know, it really sucks. And they just kind of break down and we get that moment. And now I say, okay, but clearly slashing their tires wasn't the way to go. Right? Yeah. Okay, so now we've got two things we gotta do. We gotta repair with them, and we gotta make sure this never happens again. Right. So I've. I mean, I validated the emotion, but doing so in no way reinforced those behaviors. On the contrary, I would not have been able to help her work on changing those had I not validated the emotions behind them.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

A very extreme example. I. I say all feelings are welcome, all behaviors are not.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Yes, that is exactly right.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

And I think even though that's an extreme example from what parents are typically thinking about, it's a fantastic example. Because even when the behavior is clearly, unequivocally unacceptable, there is still Room to alleviate some of the focus on whatever shame spiral might be happening. So that's right now this child or person is available to think about shifting.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Absolutely. Although now my caveat for parents. Yes, of course, all of this is much more nuanced. And so with children in particular, we've got to be really careful about what we give attention to. Right. We know that attention is reinforcing exactly.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Where I wanted you to go.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Yeah. So my daughter, when she was upset when she was younger, she would do this thing where she would start crying and maybe starting to tantrum, and then she'd look at herself in the mirror and like, really get herself going, like, just like transforming into this, like, horrible, worked up, you know, out of control kid. Me leaning in with a bunch of validation in that moment, it's just not gonna go over well. I need to smooth and move. I. I heard, actually, I was listening to Ethan Cross on your podcast, whom I love. I love, and he talked about using distraction, which is a DBT skill, actually, we teach as well. And what I would totally recommend in that moment. Alan Kazdin also talks a lot about, you know, the time to resolve tantrum behavior. Isn't during a.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Isn't in it. Right. He always said don't. That terrible phrase of don't teach a drowning child how to swim. Yes, I remember he said that. And I was like, I mean. Yes. And also I was like, shouldn't you.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Go with something else? Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

But it's so true. And I. I'm so glad you said it because I can see this evolving confusion of like, I have to write, I have to validate every single emotion, and that's where we might get into trouble. And the caveat was super important. And so I think just paying attention to is this kind of situation that needs that validation or is this something. Yeah. That we're going to move on from.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

And what I would say to that is like, you don't have to provide the validation. Right. Then, like, if someone is dysregulated, you know, especially if it's a child.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Often what needs to happen is some regulation. Right. Often they need to, like, take a break. And so with Havana, I would definitely distract in those moments when she was tantruming in front of the mirror, you know, I would pull her out. Let's. Let's do what we can do to. To distract here. Then once she has calmed down, then we can have a conversation about what I call what happened for you. And I'll ask from her purpose, what happened for you in that argument, and she'll give me her version of it. Right. And in that moment, I can validate. I can see where you were angry. Right. I can see this. I can label all of that, validate to the extent that I need to there. But she's not in it. Does that make sense?

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Actually? Not to, you know, keep moving in different things, but along those lines, what is a good way to gauge how you can. Like, if that was your experience, but you, the parent, know that that wasn't rooted in reality. How do you not invalidate in that moment of being like. Just to clarify, everything you just said that happened for you was distorted without it becoming like, he said, she said. Gaslighting, he said, she said. Because then, you know, it just can spiral. And so I think you have fantastic language for that.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

I mean, I always think about, like, I have this example of. I remember we were driving in a car or something, and there was some tanta. Tantrum about something. And afterward I was saying, well, what happened for you? And she said something about, I threw. I. I threw something down. Or I'm like, I was driving the car. There's no way. Throwing things. Or she'll say, you're. You're. You were yelling. And I'm like, I don't yell. I mean, I really don't yell. But what I want to try and figure out there is, like, she's trying in that moment to explain why she's so upset. Okay, so I might do a reframe there. I know that I was saying things you didn't want to hear. I can see how that might have felt like a lot hitting you at once, or how it might have just felt like a lot of what you didn't wanna hear in your ears. And if she doubles down and says, no, no, no, you were yelling. You were yelling at me, and it was so unfair. And I'll say, okay, okay. Oh, I get it. Okay, to you, it felt like I was yelling, I gotcha. I gotcha. I'm not gonna fight them on it. The narrative isn't as important as the process of repairing because part of that repair is that she does my experience too.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Okay. And is there a point at which you have to work on narrative, like a realistic appraisal? And is that a skill to build on this? Obviously, no skills are built in the heat of the moment. But how do you also expand on working on that appraisal of kind of what's going on? Because it's such a good point. And I think almost every parent probably has experienced that moment of just saying something that your child doesn't. Like, like, maybe, you know, please clear your plate.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Yeah.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Or whatever. And the pushback is like, stop yelling at me. And you're like, I was definitely not yelling. I just actually had a directive that was unpleasant, maybe.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Yeah.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

And so how do you not just spend time defending your honor? Do you just kind of let it go?

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Or.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Or does. Is there any. Is there any validity to wanting to help the interpretation? Or is it, like, that's not the goal?

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

So I would say, I mean, it's. Of course, it's as. Again, as you guys were talking about on your previous podcast, this idea of flexibility. So it really does depend. So if the kid is, like, super distorted and that, and there's a real narrative that's growing over time, then, yeah, you need to. To attack that. And I. And I, again, I have a kind of. A little bit of a process for that. But I will say it does help, I think, to look from the child's perspective. So you've been told what to do all day, right? You were at school all day. Your teacher was telling you what to do. You know, dad said this to you when you came home. You had to do your homework. And I imagine this felt like I was just, you know, another kind of order from an adult. So I'm kind of doing a little bit of, like, I can see how you got there. Doesn't mean I agree, but I'm just kind of tracing the chain of cause and effect. But the other side to these conversations, after I've done the. What happened for you? And she tells me her perspective, and I validate that. I say, can I tell you what happened for me, right, from my perspective? I had burned my hand while I was making dinner, and it was killing me, killing me, killing me. And I was up there getting ice for my hand, and I saw that the dog was starting to lick, you know, off your plate, and I said, hey, could you come clear your table? Because I was afraid the dog was going to eat it and get sick. Does that make sense? And so I'm just giving. And I. Again, I say to parents, like, don't expect a huge. Like, oh, yeah, like huge. The kid. Mom, you're such a hero. Let me see that bird. Oh, my God. Another battle scar, Right? But they do hear it. They do absorb it. And every now and then you get a little, like, yeah, okay, I could see that. So it's not that I. I'm not really trying to go. I'm not Going for the validation myself.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Right. We let go of that dream.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Yeah, let go of that dream. And yet that's the space in which you challenge the narrative a little bit and also present this like there's no truth with the capital T. Right.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

So what are. Can you go through your eight steps, sort of give these like a little overview of the tools to if. If validation is hard for people or like. Yeah, just your eight steps.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Yeah. So as psychologists, we often think of, at least in dbt, we think about these different levels of validation. So there's a real kind of basic, I'm just paying attention level, which is a low level of validation, but it's something beyond that. If you're able to also demonstrate understanding, that's a bit deeper and at the height, kind of the strongest levels of validation also convey some degree of empathy. Right. So it's. I see it, I get it, I feel it. Right. I see what you're experiencing. I get it cognitively, I get it emotionally. Now the thing is, you might not be able to do all of that. I don't always empathize with everybody. If I am across from my staunchest political opponent, I am only really going to be able to show that I'm paying attention. I'm only going to be able to use the first two validation skills. So we rank them kind of in order of strength and effectiveness. And the first two are these mindfulness skills of attending and copying. Attending is exactly what it sounds like. It's paying attention. So it's using non verbals, nodding, that type of stuff. There's a little bit of a more advanced version of that where you, if you're attending, you kind of need to think in your head, what is this person's point and why does it matter to them? Okay, again, it's getting me off of the like, I need to agree with this.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Right.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Perspective. It's like trying to see what's in it for them. Why does this matter? It's also the key to keep from getting bored. Keeping from getting bored in conversations is to make this little game out of it that you're solving for. So that's attending just those non verbals and trying to really think about the person's perspective and how to crystallize whatever it is they're trying to say. Copying is simply mirroring what they said or what they did. This is like my favorite skill of all because it's so freaking powerful. Copying people's non verbals, for instance, enables us to start to experience some of what they are emotionally Experiencing through mirror neurons. And we naturally copy when we're feeling a closeness to the other person. Babies will start to mimic their per their parents facial expressions and whatnot. We are wired to do this. Interestingly, it sets us up for empathy to empathize with the other person. When we copy their emotions, we feel some of what they're feeling, which then allows us to use those empathy skills later on. But it's also just so easy, it's so simple to just, you know, really intentionally copy the words someone is using to describe something or the non verbals they're engaging in. Does that make sense? So those two are just attending and copying from there. If I use those two skills enough, I will start to understand some of this person's perspective. I'll be able to see the logic in it, even if I don't agree with it. I can see the logic. And if I see the logic, I can say, oh, anybody in your shoes would. Would feel this way or think this way. That makes perfect sense, right? Of course, we call that equalizing. Yeah, your response is equal to mine or anybody else's. This makes total sense. Totally logical if it doesn't make total sense. But when you zoom out, you see, okay, I can see, see how somebody who's struggling from cancer would have a hard time dialoguing with their kid about X, Y and Z or validating their kid despite being an expert in validation. Yeah, your behavior makes sense. Right. In terms of some larger context, I can see that it's valid. That's called contextualizing. And then the favor, the third of the we call those understanding skills is proposing, which is like a Jedi mind trick. It's my favorite. That's what I was suggesting I was doing there with Havana when I talked about validating her. If we were having a conversation about the cancer again tonight, I would be mind reading, trying to guess what she might be thinking or feeling. And let me tell you, this is like so powerful because if you hit on something that the other person hadn't quite crystallized or put together and you landed, it's like this, holy cow, you know me better than I know myself.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Like when everybody talks about feeling seen, that is the moment.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

That's it.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Now for a quick break so I can tell you about my sponsors. I don't know about you, but I'm starting to get to that place where I really need comfort and support in my shoes. I just do. I travel a lot for work. I'm used to also working from home and being super comfortable. So then When I go out, I need comfort. And Vionic has an exclusive Vio motion technology that completely sets them apart. It's essentially revolutionizing medical orthotics. And today they're committed to harnessing that medical foundation in the advancement of biomechanics to engineer significantly better performance shoes that strengthen your natural movement while aligning and balancing you feet first. So obviously I had to try these because I can't tell you about them without trying them. They are so comfortable. And let me tell you, I will wear high heels if I am going out fancy. I definitely do it. But then for like a week after and it happens that I got my Phionics a week after my wedding where I had worn like three and a half inch heels for three nights in a row and I felt like these were just the thing I needed. Every step was just like cushiony and comfortable. And this is, this is what we need. We need to feel comfortable so we can get stuff done during the day and not have miserable feet. So use the Code Humans at checkout and get 15% off your entire order at www.bionicshoes.com when you log into your account. It's a one time use only with the Code Humans Bionic shoes. Wearable well being for your feet. I am loving Quince right now. I feel like I never heard about it. Then all of a sudden I got a hold of their first cashmere sweater that I got to check this brand out and now I see it everywhere and all my friends are recommending it. So Quince offers this range of high quality items with prices within each of the ranges. So I love their Mongolian cashmere sweaters and they start at $50. They have washable silk tops and dresses, organic cotton sweaters. They've got jewelry. But the best part is that all of the Quint's items are 50 to 80% less than similar brands. And it's really high quality stuff. And the way they do it is they just partner directly with top factories and cut the cost of the middleman and also just no, they only work with factories that you safe at ethical and responsible manufacturing practices with premium fabrics and finishes. So it's not like some shady discount thing. So give yourself the luxury you deserve with the prices you deserve with quint. Go to quint.com humans for free shipping on your orders and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com humans to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com/humans highly recommend the range of awesome cashmere sweaters. Just get them because they are so much cheaper and they are exactly the same quality as the more expensive ones. What are the kinds of things? Just. So I. I really want to help everyone grasp this because it is so. Because we have so much at stake when we're in relationships with our kids, to really be able to step in there and Jedi that.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Yeah. So the other thing I will warn, however, is that the higher you go up this validation, I call it the validation ladders. How I have these skills arranged, the more it hurts when you fall. So if you were to say to mind read. If I'm just going off that example with Havana, you must have been feeling really jealous of the cancer.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Let's say she, she screams at you and tells you you don't understand.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Oh yeah. What if she says, what the heck, right? I mean, proposing gone sideways is basically gaslighting, right? Suggests that someone is thinking or feeling like that they're not. So that can go sideways.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Can you say, does it help? I mean, it's so hard because you don't want to be scripted and feel like. Like your child is like, I'm onto you. You use a script. You wondered if maybe this was what I was going through. Because I. I hear you say, I wonder if. But at the same time, you. You need to try it. If you could really lock in. To quote the youngsters.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Yes, yes. Here's the other great thing about validation. If you strike out, you just go back to attending and people are really forgiving.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

What a great way to put it.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Oh, it's so true though, because what tends to happen is we feel punished when we make an attempt to connect and the other person doesn't respond to it. And so we feeling punished. We don't repeat the same behavior. We shut down, we disengage. We think they're not listening to us. I don't want to make it worse. I don't want to offend them. That is the exact therapist. You are not allowed to do that because you are trapped in that room with someone and you've got to stay on topic.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

You go back to attending, which is at the bottom of this ladder, and it's. It's like nobody, nobody minds when you attend.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

No. And copying too. So presuming you're doing it, you know, kind of low key, I'll usually just pull out a word that the person is. Is using and I'll say like, okay, frustrating. Okay, it's frustrating. I see. And I'm Just echoing it, echoing it, echoing it. You know, if you go back and watch Oprah like I did when I was a graduate student learning these skills, it's fascinating to watch her ping pong between especially proposing. She does a lot of proposing and she gets it wrong all the time, but then she just goes back down to asking questions. Copying. Yeah. Okay, so you felt confused. Why confused? You know, she does all of this kind of attending stuff and then she tries again and eventually she gets it. And that is the oprafide effect that we all feel when we're watching it is like, oh my gosh. But she struck out a lot in between. Those moments don't resonate as much as when she lands. Yeah, but she just stays in the game, which is what you've got to do with your kids. You just have to stay in the game.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

And we might be prone to being like, fine, forget it. I tried this. It's not working. Let's just stop talking.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Yeah, don't do that. Unless the kiddo is like really trying to change the subject, in which case, okay, right.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Or like, I want to just listen to music.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

That'S fine. But the point is that if you, you know, make a mistake higher up the ladder, you can always just drop down and stay engaged. Sorry, those were the proposing skills. I've got three more. Do you want em?

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Yeah, we want all of them.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Okay. The top three are the biggies. These are the empathy skills. These are the most powerful. So they convey, you know, that you're paying attention, that you understand, and that you emotionally understand. We've got three ways to do that. One is as simple as it comes. It's emoting. So expressing emotion. I've had, I do a lot of parent training and having parents actually like tear up, allow themselves to show that vulnerability can be really powerful. Especially if you're tearing up with, say, pride at how a kid handled something. Love. You know, just allowing yourself to be emotionally playful in a way is really powerful. So that's, you know, anytime you're showing emotion, it shows that the person has had an effect on you. Right. And. And that's powerful, or at least it can be.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

And, and just maybe a caveat for people who might need this. I'm not sure. But that's different than emotion where you can't, as the adult, handle it and you need to be cared for by the child.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Thank you so much for flagging that. With validation. The focus is always on the other person. So if you are losing control of your emotions or the other person Needs to comfort you. Well, now it's about you, okay? And that totally steals the spotlight. And it's really ineffective, especially. Especially in a parent child dynamic. Right? But allowing yourself to get gleeful or leaning into a little bit more emotion than you typically would. I highlight this oftentimes with my fathers in particular, that there is a real power in your vulnerability when it's, you know, sweet. I. I'm just reminded of a. I talk about this father in my book who daughter was, like, ranting and raving and in a fight with mom, and she says, I know I'm doing this wrong, but I just can't handle it because mom's blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And dad intervenes to validate the. The insight of, I know I'm not doing this well. And he tears up and says, like, I am so proud of you. I would have never been able to do that as a kid. Right? Like, that's amazing. And kiddo is like, whoa. Really? She's expecting to get lectured at for yelling about mom, and instead he comes at her with like, I'm really impressed that you had this insight. And of course, then she's like, okay, well, watch me go apologize to mom. This will be, you know, like, really? She then ultimately repaired the situation quite beautifully. But I think in those moments, some degree of vulnerability from dads can be particularly effective. One of the other higher skills up here is taking action. And parents, you've gotta be really careful with this because it's very similar to problem solving, right? You intervene in the situation somehow. So if my kid's struggling to make friends, I intervene. And I could validate all day. Oh, that's so hard. Oh, you must feel so lonely. Or I could set up some play dates for her, right? If I really get it and I really take the situation seriously, I'd intervene. Possibly. Possibly. With kiddos, you want permission oftentimes before you do that, you know, do you. Is it. Do you want me to talk to the teacher about the fact that you're being bullied? Do you want me to reach out to so and so's mom? In our house, it's very common language for us to say, do you want validation or reinforcement? Problem solving? Validation or problem solving? And Evana will say, validation. And then I'll validate. Validate. And then I'll say, so. So I'll go, do you want me to arrange some playdates? And she'll say, just validation. No intervening, no stepping in, no taking action. Basically, yeah. Right. Cause she sees that as me getting in the way there.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

And just to normalize how even when you know all of this information and it's in. Baked into your system because you're a clinician who's been doing this, it's still really hard not to go right to problem solving.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

It's so hard know how to do it, but it's so hard. And so I do a lot of asking permission before I intervene in those situations. So taking action. And the last is another really powerful one for parents and that is disclosure. Again, not to like, you know, vent about you. Yeah, we're bent about, you know, their dad or something like that. But rather to say like, oh man, I remember when I was in fifth grade and I failed a quiz, I went into the bathroom and cried and I was crying so hard. You know, just to give a little bit of. I've been there. I get it. Parents have to be careful not to go the like, well, back in, back in my day, you know, we got beat over the head if we didn't pass the test. That's where we tend to go. But instead it's just kind of trying to show that you've. You had a similar reaction or this is the real trick. Show how your reaction was worse than theirs and how they're doing it so much better. Right.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Like, I can't believe you were able to like keep it together till you got home, man. When I was your age, like I would have just been a mess. I wouldn't have been able to get through the school. I would have called my mom and asked her to pick me up. So that type of like, I have deference for your experience. I'm not one upping it with how much harder, worse, whatever it was for me. Beautiful. A beautiful level of validation.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

We could keep going all day.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Yeah.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

But I want to get to one last piece of this validation which is for us, the caregivers, self validation to help take care of ourselves. Because this is hard.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

It's really hard.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

I wondered if you could give a few tools for how we can gently guide ourselves toward the same loving kindness so that we can be believable.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Yeah.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

And available.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Yeah. So it's, it's such an important point. And I didn't really develop a self validation practice until I'd become very skilled in validating others. The one it is, it really helped me really start to look at the cause and effect chain that led to my thoughts, my feelings and see that. But I do now have more of a formalized self validation practice. And so again, if I Go back to boy. I am just being like all sorts of vulnerable and real here. So last night after Havana said that, I was feeling really raw. And so the steps to that practice for me are like, I need to pay attention, attend to the emotion. And for me, that requires, like, where do I feel it in my body? Okay, I label it and then I repeat it. I'm feeling. Last night I was feeling devastated. I feel devastated. And I'm just in my head, I'm lying in bed thinking, I feel devastated. And I'm repeating it so that I don't get into the narrative and start spinning around, you know, my memory of what she said and everything like that. I'm not trying to relive it. I'm just trying to feel whatever it is I'm feeling right now and just keep it centered there. Okay? So this, this is devastation. I try and feel it as much as I can without feeding it right. So if I can just isolate that emotion, where is it in my body? I try and feel, feel, feel, feel it. And I'll just stay there for a moment until you'll. You will notice it come down a little bit. And once it's kind of peaked like that, then I start to look at what's the validity in this? Why am I feeling this way? There is a valid reason I'm feeling this way, what happened? And I would, you know, think, well, my daughter said, you know, that she doesn't feel close to me. I value my relationship with her very much. I've worked very hard to rebuild it. It's not where I want it to be. That's devastating. I worry about the effects this is going to have on her and my ability to reverse that, that's devastating. So. So I'm just kind of basically affirming that this all makes sense. And then the last two steps of that are to do again, take action like you might with another person. Except here the action to be taken is for myself to self soothe. So I'll often just like rub my heart or, you know, put my hand on my back. And then I'm a big believer in you've gotta pay that crap forward. You gotta do something with that negative energy. You gotta make something out of it. And so I typically just do like a loving kindness reflection. That's just my way of dealing with negative emotions is to like transform it into something more positive.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Yeah, that was so. Thank you for using that example because I know this. I'm sure it's like exactly what you're worried about is happening in real time for you. And also, it's. It's just beautiful to see that you had the tools to try, even though it still must feel gutting.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

See, you're such a good therapist. You totally did. You totally proposed on me, and I totally felt it. Right. Oh, like you just said, there was like, yeah, man, that's exactly how this is, like, my worst nightmare playing out. And, like, feeling that someone else sees that makes me feel. I don't know, like, I'm not crazy or some. I don't know. There's something about that that feels like, yeah, man, this is real. This is hard. Thank you.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

I'm so sorry. And also, like, I. What a generous thing you did to share that with us, because we all. This is. This is our experience as mothers.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

It is.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

It's just. It's heavier because of what you've gone through, but it's. It's our experience so often. And I think there's something important about knowing that, like, information isn't everything, because even when you have all the information in the world, we are people and.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Our kids are people, and our kids are people.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

And so the information is awesome and helpful, and it's helping, you know, how to manage it after and tonight and all the things. And that, I think is invaluable. But just a reminder to you, to me, to everybody listening, that information is helpful. And also, it's not going to go exactly. Just so. It just can't. Thank God. Because the world would be so boring. But it's true, you know, it's. We. We could be AI. But I. So I just want to thank you because I can imagine people are like, well, if I could master this, you know, it's like, well, yes. And also, you have mastered this, and it's still a bit. Not all the time. It just can't be. Thank God.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

But it does. And also, like, the benefit is. I see it. I feel a little bit more control in the relationship. Like, I see. See. I see what she needed in that moment.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

I see why it was difficult for me to provide it. There's just a little bit of calm in that.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

I don't know how to describe it, but I really want to empower people with that. Because I think it's like you said, life's just going to happen. Right. And.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

And you have the tools to, like, connect to it and repair, and it's so hopeful.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Yeah, I think so. I think so.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

But still, I'm so sorry. Cause I just feel I can just. I just. So I Hear you.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

It's a lot.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

I'm so sorry.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

No, not at all. I mean, there's. I mean, this is life. Illness is life. And it's messy and it's ugly and it's beautiful, and, you know. Yeah. As we were talking before, just. This is where resilience comes from. It is where character is built. Like it. You don't build character in luxury.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Okay, so before we end this discussion, I think it's important for people to know, what's the other side of this? If we don't learn validation? What's the research on invalidation? Or I guess that's not the other side, because the other side could also just be more neutral. But what's the harm in invalidation?

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

I'm so glad you asked, because part of the reason validation has been so critical to DBT and other interventions now as well that have developed since is that invalidation is theorized to play a causal role in severe psychopathology of all types. Borderline personality disorder, suicidality, self harm, even psychopathy. It's. The more invalidating an environment is, the more likely that person is to struggle. And I see this so obviously in my clients who are in the LGBTQ community. Talk about people who have experienced, and often experience profound levels of invalidation. Within those demographics, we see the highest suicide rates, the highest rates of self harm. Right. That's. That is the relationship there. So it's. It's not enough to say that this will help strengthen our relationships. It's. It's quite critical to mental health and navigating the world.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

So everybody needs to get your book validation. How the skill set that revolutionized psychology will transform your relationships, increase your influence, and Change your life. Dr. Caroline Fleck. This was really wonderful for us. Thank you.

[Dr. Caroline Fleck]

Was. I really loved it. Oh, take good care. This was so much fun. Thank you for having me. Please note that this episode may contain.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

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