What Happens to Your Brain When You Become a Parent (Including Dads) w/ Dr. Darby Saxbe

Summary

Podcast Episode Summary

Podcast: Raising Good Humans
Host: Dr. Aliza Pressman
Guest: Dr. Darby Saxbe
Episode Title: What Happens to Your Brain When You Become a Parent (Including Dads)
Date: December 19, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the profound neurological and psychological changes that occur when someone becomes a parent—including fathers and non-biological caregivers. Dr. Aliza Pressman speaks with Dr. Darby Saxbe, a clinical psychologist and researcher at USC, about the vulnerability and remarkable opportunities for growth that define this transformative period. The conversation debunks parenting myths, emphasizes the role of caregiving regardless of gender or biological relation, and highlights the immense neuroplasticity triggered by becoming a parent.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Parenting Doesn’t Require Perfection—Real Talk Among Experts

• The episode opens with both experts sharing parenting “fails” to normalize imperfect, human moments.
  • “Sometimes I think that it's good to yell at kids because it's important for them to see that you're human...Sometimes kids are just being jerks and...they get accountability when they see you be mad.” – Dr. Darby Saxbe [01:32]
  • Both agree it’s unrealistic to always follow a script; authenticity and repair matter more than perfection.

2. The Transition to Parenthood: A Window of Neuroplasticity

• Dr. Saxbe discusses her research on the underappreciated neurological and hormonal transformations in new parents, coining it a “third window” of change after infancy and adolescence.
  • “There’s kind of this third window that happens to us in adulthood...where we see a lot of different systems changing all at once...[including] the brain, our hormonal milieu…our relationships...identity.” [03:14]
• These changes offer both vulnerability (to mood disorders, sleep deprivation, health risks) and opportunity (for profound psychological growth and redefinition).

3. Caregiving Drives Brain Change—Not Just Pregnancy

• Dr. Saxbe’s lab and others have shown that brain remodeling occurs not only in mothers, but also in fathers, adoptive parents, and even caregiving grandparents.
  • "The more time men are spending with babies, the more time they have as a primary caregiver, the more profound the changes to their brain structure. So I think there's something about just, like, the work of care that is, like, neuroplastic." – Dr. Darby Saxbe [10:13]
• Research from Emory finds similar neural responses among grandmothers and even non-parent caregivers, emphasizing caregiving as the key factor.

4. Caregiving as Rich, but Also Demanding Work

• The joys of caregiving are paired with challenges:
  • “Caregiving is a form of work. It's effortful...You have to sort of like try and it's draining and it's isolating and our society kind of sets people up to have a hard time with it.” – Dr. Darby Saxbe [14:33]
• Brain changes in new fathers correlate with increased attachment but also higher rates of depression, anxiety, and sleep issues.
• Dr. Saxbe advocates for treating parent support as a societal duty, not just an individual one.

5. The Value of Social Support and Community

• The ideal is a collective, communal approach to parenting, much like hunter-gatherer societies.
  • “This kind of like one parent, one child model is not what's practiced in most places historically...If you look at hunter gatherers...they raise kids in community.” – Dr. Darby Saxbe [16:22]
• Practical supports (e.g., extended family, communities, protected leave) can scaffold new parents during their most vulnerable period.
• Other countries (e.g., Sweden, Netherlands) provide models with longer parental leave and subsidized part-time work, reducing stress and improving outcomes.

6. Reassurance Against Parent Shaming

• Dr. Saxbe and Dr. Pressman are adamant about separating system-level failures from parent-level blame.
  • “We do so much mom shaming...We've survived for millennia under much worse circumstances. Unless you're abjectly neglecting and abusing a kid, chances are they're going to be pretty resilient.” – Dr. Darby Saxbe [22:01]
• The notorious Romanian orphanage studies are addressed—reminding listeners not to equate them with everyday, loving (but imperfect) parenting.

7. Debunking Intensive Parenting Myths

• Too much focus on micro-managing every interaction and following “scripts” can backfire, eroding parent confidence and natural responsiveness.
  • “You can't be on your kid enriching them every minute of every day...Your kid is going to grow on their own. You can create the conditions, but you can't tell them which direction to head.” – Dr. Darby Saxbe [24:09]
• Experience and community are better teachers than aiming for idealized, prescriptive parenting.

8. Navigating Scripts, Instincts, and Confidence

• Dr. Pressman and Dr. Saxbe explore the insecurity parents (especially new ones) feel, especially if they didn't have positive parenting models themselves.
• The desire for scripts often grows out of lack of exposure (“a lot of men will say, the first baby I ever held was my own.” [28:33]), but true confidence comes from tuning into your own child and circumstances.

9. Unique Challenges and Opportunities for Fathers

• Fatherhood is changing rapidly, with expectations for deep involvement rising, but cultural support lagging.
  • “There are dads who have never changed a diaper, like our current president, and there are dads who are primary caregivers who do everything...there's a huge gray area.” – Dr. Darby Saxbe [38:25]
• Dads may be more isolated, lack scripting, and often feel less essential—particularly early on.
• Diversity in parenting approaches (including errors and different styles between parents) is healthy for children’s adaptability.

10. Father Involvement Across a Child’s Development

• Kids' parental preferences fluctuate. Dads shouldn’t “bench” themselves if they feel less needed early on.
  • “The relationship took on its own specialness...with his own sons...when his kids were teens...he felt like his kids needed their dad even more than they needed their mom during those years.” [48:33]
• The value of fathering continues to grow as children become teens and young adults.

11. Parenting, Caregiving, and Societal Change

• Having more men participate in caregiving roles strengthens family bonds, supports child development, and is neuroprotective—potentially slowing brain aging.
  • “Being a parent is neuroprotective in late life...The more kids you have, the younger your brain actually looks...and you see it in men and women, which means it's not just about pregnancy hormones...it really is, I think, around care and social integration.” – Dr. Darby Saxbe [65:57]

12. Policy, Community, and a Call to Action

• Societal support structures—parental leave, quality childcare, acceptance of help—are urgently needed.
• Accepting help is not weakness; it’s an adaptive, communal act that benefits everyone involved.
• “Anyone who wants to show up in any way that they can, that's great for kids...we should not hesitate to, like, tap in whoever is willing to help and be involved with our kids.” – Dr. Darby Saxbe [56:35]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Caregiving is a form of work. It's effortful...You have to sort of like try and it's draining and it's isolating and our society kind of sets people up to have a hard time with it.” – Dr. Darby Saxbe [14:33]
• “Unless you're abjectly neglecting and abusing a kid, chances are they're going to be pretty resilient.” – Dr. Darby Saxbe [22:01]
• “You can't be on your kid enriching them every minute of every day.... You can water the soil, but ultimately you can't tell them which direction to head or what kind of flower they are.” – Dr. Darby Saxbe [24:09]
• “The more time men are spending with babies...the more profound the changes to their brain structure. So I think there's something about just, like, the work of care that is, like, neuroplastic.” – Dr. Darby Saxbe [10:13]
• “I think actually becoming a dad is one of the most powerful things a man can do to have a better life.” – Dr. Darby Saxbe [66:21]
• “Love is good for all of us.” – Dr. Darby Saxbe [68:09]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Opening reflections, importance of imperfection [00:55–02:47]
• The transition to parenthood and neuroplasticity [03:14–06:52]
• Brain changes in caregivers (not just mothers) [08:38–10:22]
• Challenges of caregiving & society’s shortcomings [13:34–15:24]
• Societal support, international perspectives [16:22–20:00]
• Parent shaming vs. true risk factors [20:52–22:20]
• Debunking parenting myths and scripts [24:02–27:50]
• Lack of confidence and the search for scripts/parental wisdom [28:28–31:23]
• Fatherhood’s unique challenges, stereotypes, and opportunities [36:21–43:49]
• Preferred-parent struggles and encouraging sustained father involvement [45:58–49:35]
• Benefits of different caregiving approaches/community parenting [53:05–56:35]
• Offering and accepting help; building community [57:04–60:36]
• Dr. Saxbe’s research: The Hatch Study [60:46–63:59]
• Parenting, brain health, and societal meaning for men [65:57–67:38]
• Final remarks on love and growth [68:09–68:16]

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Takeaways

• Parenting rewires both mothers’ and fathers’ brains—caregiving, not just biology, is key.
• Forget perfection or "right" scripts: responsive, authentic, and connected parenting is what matters.
• Parenting changes your identity, relationships, and even your brain—a vulnerable but uniquely generative time.
• Society must do more to support new parents—community, policy, and normalized help are essential, not optional.
• Don’t bench dads—vital opportunities for involvement exist at every stage of a child’s life.
• Parenting is good for adults’ brains, well-being, and society—the act of care transforms everyone involved.

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For more on Dr. Saxbe’s research, see the NEST Lab and her forthcoming book, "Dad Brain".

Transcript

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

The following podcast is a Dear Media production. Welcome to Raising good humans. I'm Dr. Aliza Pressman, and today's episode.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

Is with Dr. Darby Saxby.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

She's a clinical psychologist and professor of psychology at the University of Southern California. Her research on the transition to parenthood and her research on the dad brain and parent brain is wildly interesting. Today we're talking about this transition to parenthood and both the vulnerability of the brain and the incredible opportunities for growth of that very same new parent brain. And today we're talking about the transition to parenthood for fathers and the dad brain. These are physiological changes happening to the brain of a human who didn't give.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

Birth.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Even though it has nothing to do with our conversation, which is just when you get psychologists together and we just maybe tell one parenting fail. So that people feel like even when you have all the content knowledge in the world, it still really brings you to your knees as a human parent. Do you have any of those?

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

I have so many. So many of those. I mean, I could say for years my kids slept in their clothes because I just could not deal with the morning routine.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Is that a parenting thing?

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

I actually think it's a parenting win.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Yeah, I do, too.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

But, you know, it's something that other parents can get a little judgy about. But I actually like. You know, sometimes I think that it's good to yell at kids because it's important for them to see that you're human. I know you do a lot of writing about rupture and repair and, like, we're not always perfect and we hit our limits. Sometimes kids are just being jerks and, like, there's accountability that they get when they see you be mad.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

And my kids get that a lot.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

I'm glad you said that one. Because I was thinking if you go onto the Instagram, you get, or I do in my feed, a ton of people saying that if you feel angry at your child or you're yelling at your child, obviously not regularly, but. But that it is because of a trigger from your past experiences. And I'm like. And also, sometimes they're just being a jerk. Yeah.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Like, kids aren't always known for their empathy. Those abilities are coming online, and they're there to push your buttons and to get a reaction from you. And I think, like, the idea that you always have a script and you always have the right thing to say is a lot of pressure for parents, and sometimes you just have to call them on their bullshit.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Yeah, I think that's a fantastic way to start this episode. Okay. Now, it has nothing to do with our conversation, except that all of the things that we talk about here are through the lens of understanding our experience or our kids experience, or someone's experience being parented and parenting. We first need to unpack what we understand about this massive change in life, the transition to parenthood.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

So I have been studying the transition to parenthood in my, both professional and personal life for over a decade. And I think it's a really underappreciated kind of window of neuroplasticity and change and adaptation. And when you see a lot of change, you see both vulnerability and opportunity. And we focus a lot on our kids. They're growing, they're developing so much. Infancy is this critical window for skills. Adolescence is this transformation. But I think there's kind of this third window that happens to us in adulthood, which you could call matrescence or petrescence, but where we see a lot of different systems changing all at once. And by systems, I mean the brain, the structure and function of the brain. I mean our hormonal milieu, which we know changes a lot in women during pregnancy and breastfeeding, but also increasing evidence that men are changing in their hormones too. We see changes to our relationships, we're renegotiating our roles, we see changes to our identity. So, you know, we might have been the ideal worker. Suddenly we're balancing work with parenting, to our social roles, to our extended family relationships. We're sort of renegotiating how we feel about our own parents and our families of origin. So there's sort of like this, this like psychological changes world. There's this neurobiological changes world, which we know a lot about that from animals and increasingly in humans. And then there's kind of this behavioral world, which I would say, like changes to sleep, changes to our exercise, changes to our daily routines, like we have to suddenly wake up early with a baby. So all of those things I think sort of together lead to ideally a lot of discovery and growth, but also can inflect risk for perinatal depression and mood disorders and inflammation and obesity and sleep problems and health changes. And I think we spent a lot of time focusing on, at least within the sort of grant funded research world, like biomedical science cares a lot about cardiometabolic risk factors in late life. And I actually think we're sort of missing this window of the transition to parenthood as an opportunity to think about our physical health as well as our psychological health during this time period that a lot of us sort of just assume is pretty inert.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

I would love to dig into some of the changes and opportunities during this time, because when. When you hear about it, we don't think about the vulnerability of the. Those first few years or the vulnerability of adolescence in same way as the vulnerability of the transition to parenthood, where we express a lot of understanding that there's opportunity. Like, we kind of all accept that the brain is doing wildly cool things in infancy and early childhood and that there's better support that we can give to that growth. And I think we all. Or maybe I'm just saying that because we have so many teenagers in our lives, but we accept both the vulnerability of that time and also the more likely path of hopefully just amazing growth opportunities. But I think the transition to parenthood gets just like mostly the focus on the vulnerability during that time, which I do want us to go over. But I love the opportunity mindset and just reality of this transition.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Yeah, I think we often use kind of a deficit model around adult health transitions. And there's been a lot of awareness raised about perinatal mood and anxiety disorders, which is great, and we need to know about those things and how to detect them. But I think the fear is that then people have this negative frame around becoming a parent. And I actually worry about this a lot with, like, birth rates dropping and so many young people saying they don't want to start families. Like, I think we've done really bad marketing around parenthood and for good reason, because we need to call attention to structural inequities and lack of support. But babies are awesome, and they're just so cool, and it's so fun to get to be with them. And I think we can celebrate that while also being honest about the challenges. And so when I say opportunity, I'm thinking about a couple different things. Like, you might know Stu Friedman's work. He's like a management corporate business guy. He's written about how parents are better organizational leaders because they develop these skills around negotiation and communication that, you know, you. You do a lot of hard, empathetic work as a parent to young kids. That's the skill set that increasingly is important in the business world. But I also think, like, we have this deficit of social connection. People are lonely, people are isolated, People don't feel tied to institutions. And we have this crisis of meaning and purpose as a society. And I think there's sort of no better shortcut to finding connection and meaning than through care and through just being part of a social world of People that take care of each other.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

There was some research around the act.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Of caregiving, changing the brain structure, like, structurally.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Yeah.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

And it wasn't just isolated to the birth mother, but caregivers in general. You could be an adoptive parent, you could be a father. But it was very specific around the act of caregiving that they felt was kind of the deciding factor or the most influential factor. Is that accurate?

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Yeah. So there's this really cool research literature about changes to the maternal brain. You can see really striking structural remodeling of women's brains if you compare from before they get pregnant to early postpartum. And we can talk more about, like, what that looks like. But in my lab, I've found really similar patterns with men. They're not as. They're more nuanced, they're more variable. They're not as striking. So we still see brain changes in a lot of the same regions that change in moms. And then there's this guy who I really like, who's a researcher at Emory, Jim Rilling, who has also done a lot of parental brain research. He just published a study looking at grandmothers who are caregivers.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

Ooh.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

And he found that their brain responses to kids are similar to brain responses of moms. And he also had a group where he looked at women who were caregiving. I think it was a spouse with Alzheimer's. And found kind of similar brain patterns. So that tells me it's not just about pregnancy or breastfeeding or all the stuff we know that's so important for changing the brain. It really is time and energy devoted to care. And in my father work, I found that the more time men are spending with babies, the more time they have as a primary caregiver giver, the more profound the changes to their brain structure. So I think there's something about just, like, the work of care that is, like, neuroplastic.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

That is incredible.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

It's cool.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

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[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

I'm curious, how does that work with, for example, postpartum depression? Like, is it helpful in managing and supporting mothers who are struggling to both get support for care so that they're not overwhelmed and also have opportunities for caregiving that bolster their mental health?

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Yeah, it's an interesting question because I think there's this mixed bag that kind of comes with being a parent, especially in the early years, which is that, you know, we've talked about, like, meaning and connection and purpose and learning and all these valuable things that you get when you're interacting with this awesome baby. But, but there's also sleep deprivation, there's loss of status at work, there's, you know, reconciling your identity, maybe not feeling the way you feel like you're supposed to feel about your baby. Self doubt. So it's kind of like, I think I just keep going back to this idea that caregiving is a form of work. Like it's effortful, it's, we think that you're just wired to do it and it'll come naturally. Like you. It's actually hard.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Really hard.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Yeah. And you have to sort of like try and it's draining and it's isolating and our society kind of sets people up to have a hard time with it. So I think that's where there's sort of a dark side to what I think can be a really valuable adaptation. And that's what I found in my lab, is that when men's brains change in ways that look more like mothers, they are both saying they feel more connected and attached to their babies, but they have higher depression rates, they have higher anxiety, they have worse sleep. So there, there is like a cost of caregiving that to me the answer isn't, okay, let's just like pack it up and not try to have kids. But really like, how do we think of this as like a societal problem? Because if we're not supporting our caregivers, we aren't raising future generations of good humans.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

So this is the conundrum which is you have this opportunity to grow so much and we don't have systems in place to help people take advantage of that incredible opportunity in neuroplasticity and at, on the worst case, you're now super vulnerable. So it would be akin to like a newborn not having someone there to mirror back or like stick out their tongue and giggle and talk to them and do parentes and touch. So then they're not, they're in a more vulnerable place for growth.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Right.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

But if you have somebody there doing that. Yeah, they grow. So what is the, what's our dream for this transition to parenthood? I would love two versions of that answer. One that's in rooted in the reality of what is accessible now. And then of course we can talk about like in the dream world where we have so much, you know, like better family medical leave and all of that fun stuff.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Yeah, yeah. It's a really interesting. I hadn't thought about that analogy that it's like you're a newborn baby that you need scaffolding because you're growing so much. But I do think we have this narrative of like, bouncing back after baby, getting back into your pants, getting back to work quickly. Like, that's the wrong narrative. I think you need a narrative of transformation and normalizing that and accommodating that in terms of. I think what would help to support is remembering we're really not supposed to do this in isolation. Like, this kind of like one parent, one child model is not what's practiced in most places historically. Like, if you look at Hunter gatherers, which we spent 97% of our time on Earth operating like hunter gatherers, they raise kids in community. Kids are around lots of different caregivers. There's a rotation. So kids are held and cared for almost all the time that they're awake, but not always by the same person. And people are trading off responsibility and everybody's working and contributing. So I think because our extended family networks have shrunk, because we're such a geographically mobile society, we don't really have those supports as much. Like someone who can just come and hold the baby or let us take a break, we can create some of that community for ourselves. And I think a lot of moms just do kind of organize, like play dates and hangs and chances to get together with other parents. Even if it's just like Mommy and Me yoga and you can just put the baby down for a minute. I think that kind of stuff is really valuable. I think making sure you have enough protected time after birth, physical recovery, breastfeeding, relationship, but also just to bond and not be harried and urgent is super important. But in this country, it's a privilege. Yeah. And you said, like, let's think about the reality and then let's think about the fantasy. But the fact is, the fantasy is a reality in a lot of places. So I think we actually have to remember that, like, there's so much stuff that we think is impossible, and countries that aren't that much wealthier than us or in some cases are less wealthy than us, have figured it out. So if you can get 18 months of maternity leave in Sweden, like, that's a lot of time. And then you have really high quality childcare when you do go back to work, that's going to make your life a lot easier and relieve a lot of stress. To me, one of the most shocking things I ever heard a Swedish person say to me was, I've never used a breast pump, but it's because they didn't have to. Yeah, you don't have to go to work and tote your breastfeeding bag. So it's just a totally different landscape.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

I just was in graduate school at the national center for Children and Families with my breast pump, and I was like, something is wrong here.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Right. Like national center for Children and Families. Yeah, same. I was on my clinical internship, you know, at the VA with my, like, breastfeeding stuff, and then postdocing at a lab that was called the USC Family Studies project, again with the breast pump. And you're like, I could just have my baby here or I could just be home with my baby.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

So I'm really interested in how other countries figure this stuff out. Like, one thing I've been reading up on is normalizing parents working part time when their kids are little. That's something they do in the Netherlands and in Denmark. And I think something like 40% of parents work part time and it's subsidized by the government.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

Wow.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

So to me, like, I'm a stress researcher. Stress is bad. Anything that reduces stress for parents, I think we should get behind. And it's cost effective.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Right.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Because long term.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Long term, kids who aren't well cared for are expensive to society, and kids who are well cared for are really good for the economy and our national security and just like our future survival as a nation question.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Somebody's listening to this and they're like, I went back to work after three months. I didn't have high quality childcare. I'm doing the best I can. I'm a single parent. I don't know all of the things that might feel like they're at risk for outcomes that we're not as excited about are there. I'm basically like, can you make everybody feel better that on a personal level there are factors that are protective despite having the odds kind of against you? Just because we have a terrible situation in the United States in particular.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Yep.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Just because. I think it's important to know how powerful those factors are.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Yes. Yeah. And I. I should say, like, I do not believe in shaming any parent ever. We're all doing the best. Unless they're really bad.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Yeah. But we're all, you have to be really bad.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

You have to be really bad. We're all doing the best we can. And I think you can shame the systems and the structure without ever making a parent, like, why didn't you breastfeed for a full year? Yeah. Like, of course you didn't. Because you had to Go to work. And it didn't make sense. So I think that's an important caveat. But also, like, you know, I. It's funny, like, my parents are doctors, so they never let me stay home from school sick.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Yeah, of course.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Because, like, I could have 101 fever and they'd be like, you're fine. You've got all your limbs. I feel like as a clinical psychologist, I don't know if you feel this way. I'm kind of the same way. I'm like, the Romanian orphanage studies tell us what can go wrong for little kids. A mom who's busy and stressed and having to balance work and family is not going to create kids who, like, we do so much mom shaming.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Oh, my God.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

And it's like if you let your kid cry it out, you're going to damage them forever. We're really adaptable, flexible. As a species. We've survived for millennia under much worse circumstances. We've lived through famine, we've lived through war. Like, unless you're abjectly neglecting and abusing a kid, chances are they're going to be pretty resilient.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

I'm glad you said that. Also because that specific study, the Romanian orphanage studies, have been used against mothers so terribly. And I think what happens is no one mentions that the studies are from Romanian orphanages and like, giant rooms with. Yeah, like what. How that turned into those babies not thriving because they were crying and nobody was coming to sue them. Translated to comparing that to like a loving households where you are letting your baby cry and taking a shower or just want sleep is so harmful.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Yes.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

And I'm so glad you used that example just because you're right, we should spend a little bit of time acknowledging the resilience and adaptability of humans because I don't want people to forget that.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

And we already.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

And I think we've maybe talked about this before, just like how we turn. We pathologize so much that I think it's actually, it's like harming the entire mental health field. It's just the wrong messaging. And I don't even know any mental health experts that necessarily agree with all of this pathologizing. But somehow out in the world, we've decided everything is, you know, like, stress is all bad and terrible and toxic or having sad feelings is all depression. And I know you have much to say about that. So will you talk about that a little bit since right now is a good time, while people. So nobody spins out.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Yeah, I'm actually working on a book right now called Under Parenting.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Oh, my God, that's awesome.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Exactly. About this idea that we think that parenting is something that we need to optimize. I mean, I just said a few minutes ago, parenting is work. And I think it very much is. And it's effortful, but it's not like a prize that we have to win to be the best parent ever at all times. And I think intensive parenting is really draining and kind of harmful for families. And it makes people second guess each other and feel bad about what they're doing or not doing. You can't be on your kid enriching them every minute of every day. Kids benefit from downtime. Parents need rest. Right. We benefit from downtime. Your kid is going to grow on their own. You can create the conditions and you can water the soil, but ultimately you can't tell them which direction to head or what their flower is, what kind of flower they are. They might be an orchid, they might be a dandelion, they might be a creeping vine. Like, you just have to let them flourish and kind of get out of their way. And I find that such a useful thing to think about. And that's why I keep talking about, like, structural stuff. Like, we can lay the groundwork for parents to be less stressed and more relaxed through better policy, but we don't have to micromanage every interaction that parents have with kids. Yeah. I mean, I think if you're reading a parenting book, you're probably not the person that needs to read a parenting book.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

Always.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

It's like clockwork.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Yeah.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Because you're already invested. You're trying. You're trying to figure your kid out. Like, that's great.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

So. And I think there's so much parenting advice that's helpful that makes sense, that that's good for parents to hear. But you don't want to overload folks to the extent that they trust their own instincts or that they can't trust their own instincts. Because I think, you know, when you have too many scripted templates for how to interact, you start to get farther away from what feels natural and what is responsive to your individual kid. And I think that sort of tuning into your kid's frequency is more important than having the right thing to say.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

For sure.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Right. And saying the wrong thing isn't the worst thing in the world if you can come back from it.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

I think it's more like becoming fluent in your own whatever, whoever you are as a parent and feeling like you have the basic foundation and then getting a little Bit more comfortable with how beneficial it is to say the wrong thing and then come back from it.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Yeah.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Or at least I have to tell myself that because I still say the wrong thing all the time. That is, the other thing is just knowing, like, I don't think there is any enough convincing in the world that the. There are no scripts that are. Nobody in the history of time that I know of has done studies looking at, like assigning people scripts versus not scripts for all these minutiae details of parent and child interactions. But somehow we really believe that there is a right or a wrong script. And I think that is part of the vulnerability of this transition to parenthood. Just to bring it back to the conversation, that is a problem because if you're in a vulnerable state and you're hearing that there is this exact right thing that you're supposed to be doing and saying, yeah, how much more at ease does it feel? So I just wonder how we can take that vulnerability and again, turn it into opportunity. Like, what are the components that are super helpful and do build that brain and what are the areas where we need to just be quiet a little bit more?

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Yeah. I mean, I think part of why it gets easier when you have teenagers is that you feel more confident because you know that you've helped your kids survive 12 years or whatever and they're still on this earth. And I think it's hard when you have little kids and you don't have a lot of experience with little kids because again, like, I keep going back to hunter gatherer society or what things were like in the evolutionary past, People had a lot of interaction with babies and young kids because siblings were really involved in parenting. Little ones like aunts, uncles, nephews. Like, you'd probably have held babies for hours and hours and hours before you.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Had your own, as opposed to that first moment when that might be your first time ever holding a human.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

And I think that's true for men especially. Like a lot of men will say, the first baby I ever held was my own. And so you truly have no operating manual. And it's super high stakes because you have to keep this baby alive. And you're sort of figuring that out. And so I think that's why there's such a desire for expertise and wisdom is that people don't know what they're doing and don't feel confident. And we don't have these kind of like generational parenting traditions that you just absorb from, like seeing your elder's parent all around you. Yeah.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

And maybe there's also a fear that things have changed so much that the. Any wisdom you're getting is like outdated and you don't want to hear it.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Yeah. I just saw a study where Americans were asked, do you want to parent the same way you yourself were parented? And half of the respondents said yes and half of the respondents said no.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Wow.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

So it's like we're kind of flailing around. I feel like a little bit like we don't have scripts already built into our brains. And I think that's why we want scripts to be given to us in the outside world.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

I wonder. It's interesting, just the idea that if you don't want to parent the way you were parented, now you're operating from like, yeah, you're really starting from scratch. And then if people are saying, go with your gut. And your gut's like, but my gut's going to do the thing that I was raised with that I don't want to do, that puts you in a really hard position.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Right. You might feel like all your instincts are wrong or all your internal working models are flawed. And so of course you're going to be on the Internet looking for any wisdom you can find.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Yeah. And for some people that's really life saving, but for then a ton of people it's not. It's maybe too much because then I.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Think it moves people farther away from a sense of confidence and trust in their own judgment.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Right. Because if you, if your instinct is different from the expert advice or if you try the expert advice and it doesn't work.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

And what does doesn't work mean? Like. Cause I think that's another problem too is you, you know, you might even use the script exactly as prescribed. But then you didn't get the message that, by the way, you have a toddler. So it doesn't really. Your script is for you to have something to say so you don't get angry, baby. But it's definitely not changing or so that you don't express that anger in a way that seems too out of control, but the toddler is not changing.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

The toddler is still going to be completely unreasonable.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Because toddlers are totally unreasonable.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

So then if you think it's supposed to have worked if you were a better parent, but actually it doesn't really matter what kind of parent you are, if your toddler is doing their job, they're going to continue to be incredibly difficult.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Yes.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

That could be confusing as well.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Yeah. Toddlers and teenagers basically have borderline personality disorder. So there's only so much you can do.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Oh my God. Somebody just. I just saw somebody had a script for a teenager that was something I don't, I don't even know what it was about. I can't remember. But whatever the script was, I am. I just imagined saying that to either of my daughters. I also have two step teenage children. Step teenagers. But I would never say any of those things to them because I don't know, I have a different relationship with them. But with my daughters, I thought if I use anything close to what could sound like a script, they call me out so fast.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Right.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

And it only just pisses them off. And sometimes it's not really a script, but it's something that is fluent in me because it is how I speak. But maybe I put it on Instagram and like, I think I had, I said something the other day like a very typical psychologically like everybody knows, you know, you say I wonder instead of something a little bit more judgmental sounding. And I said it to my daughter and she just looked at me and she was like, don't, don't Instagram parent me, please. I was so annoyed because I wasn't doing that, but I did just put that on Instagram and I did loathe myself in retrospect because I was like, oh, that must be so annoying.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Yeah, I mean this is why they say psychologists children are just the most disturbed.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

But yeah, I also think like teens have such a barometer for authenticity and they can spot hypocrisy from like a mile away. Like there's nothing my 15 year old likes doing more than pointing out when I'm being a hypocrite.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

It's so fun.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

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[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

How is it with dads? Because I do find I'm so curious. Like I think dads get a lot of credit when they do anything, and they should because I think it's maybe not as culturally assumed or expected, but what are you seeing, like in the field?

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Yeah, I think it's a fraught time for a lot of men. And I just finished writing this book, dad Brain, which is coming out next spring. And I talked to a lot of dads as I was writing it. So it's about the research, but it's also just hearing a lot of stories. And I think a lot of men, when they have new children, don't really know what they're supposed to do. I mean, we were just talking about how nobody knows what they're doing, but I think especially dads, especially, like they can feel like a third wheel. Their couple relationship dynamics have totally changed. Mom is totally focused on this new baby who's totally dependent. There's not as much like physically dads can do if the mom's breastfeeding and baby's eating a lot. Like, dads are just a little bit at loose ends. And they don't necessarily have great models or scripts. Like we just talked about that for all parents, but especially for men, they don't want to parent maybe like their own dads or grandfathers parented. So I think what's interesting about fatherhood is how much it's changed in terms of what we expect. So just a couple generations ago there was a really strong assumption that women were default parents who were going to do absolutely everything with young kids. And the sort of father knows best model of like the dad coming home at the end of the day drinking a martini, like maybe giving the kids a kiss on the cheek. But like that was the extent of his involvement. And now in just like two or three generations, we expect men to be fully invested, sensitive, empathetic caregivers. And there's a lot of cultural variability and a lot of individual variability around that. So. So I think like the key word for dads is variability.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

Right.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Because there are dads who have never changed a diaper, like our current president, and there are dads who are primary caregivers who do everything. And in between there's like this huge gray area. And I think because also like masculinity is so contested and sort of fragile in the sense that like men feel they need to prove it or they need to fight for it. Being a hands on parent sort of runs against a lot of our ideals of what masculinity looks like. And so men are wrestling with that. So I think like everything we just said about the transition to parenthood in general, that it's like a change to your priorities, to your social roles, to your relationships, I think to your sleep goes for fathers as well. But there's also less kind of social scaffolding around new fatherhood. So like we were just saying there's not really enough for moms either. But dads especially, like, don't always have the ability to plug into those networks of like mom groups and mommy and me classes.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

And we're just even looking across at another mom with a kid the same age and knowing that like you're supposed to chat.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Yeah.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

And like you'll support each other.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

There's like this fellowship of new moms where it's very easy, easy to connect and find your people who have Kids the same age.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

And I think dads are more isolated. Fewer dads are stay at home, although that number keeps increasing. And we still undervalue care in all of its forms. And men feel like they're not sure this is something they're supposed to be putting a lot of their focus into. And yet it's also so absorbing and consuming. So I think sets off just a lot of internal wrestling.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

This is an observation which is that I have parent groups. I call them parent groups, but they're mom groups almost exclusively. And the ones that are parent groups are parent groups because there are gay dads in the group. And out of the pressure, then the. All the dads started coming in those particular groups. There are just a couple of them. They're younger, they're in Los Angeles, and it's social for them. Like, they have an opportunity to connect with each other. But for the majority of the groups, the moms are coming once a month and they're connecting with each other. And then every once in a while they're like, is this. Can. Can we do a once a year with the dads? That's about the bandwidth they have for, like, connecting over this or kind of wanting to understand this new phase of life or development or whatever. And I wonder, do we get stuck in the weeds maybe? Like, are moms really stuck in the details? And dads are like, I need support, but like, more overall.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

We make so many excuses for our partners. Like, oh, well, he's just not good at details. It's like, dude, he's a project manager at work. Or like, he holds down a job. You know, like anyone has the ability to monitor, like, who likes tomatoes? Yeah, it's just, do we care enough to do it and are we socialized? I think it's important.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

And is the person who's kind of gatekeeping able to let it be messy for a few weeks? Yeah, or longer?

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Yeah, because that's the other thing is, like, you might have specific standards for what the kids need. And we've been talking about this idea of like, scripts and optimizing and saying the right thing when there's a tantrum. Another part, your partner may not have the same scripts and templates, and that's good. And I actually think in some ways parenting, like a dad is pretty healthy for kids.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Oh, there's so much. You get the benefit of also just learning how to engage with a different type of person using different type of physicality and different type of words and. Yeah, but now what happens if people don't have. Well, maybe we're not ready for this yet. Maybe I won't ask this question yet. We'll continue with some of the benefits of parenting like a dad are.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

I think it depends on the dad.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

But I know for a researcher you're like, this is way too generalized.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Well, I think so. There's survey research that if you ask moms and dads, you know, like, what's your parenting style? Moms will be more likely to say that they're overprotective and that they worry a lot about their kids. Dads are more likely to say that they're a little more hands off and they're a little more trusting of their kids resilience. And I think that latter style is good for kids confidence. Like we've been talking about sort of helicopter parenting and intensive parenting. I think because they're less socialized and because they're less like, algorithmically fed, all of these, like, ways to optimize your parenting tips and advice. Dads are a little bit less likely to overthink it. And I think ultimately that's good for kids confidence. And like you said, I also just think it's good for kids to have a repertoire of different caregivers with different styles because they realize that people are variable and yeah, like, here's how to get along with different kinds of people. Like, I think that's really good for kids, whether it's daycare or a father or a relative who's helping take care of them.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

You know, when somebody says, what do I do? When crazy aunt so and so says this? Or how do I convince my husband of this? And I always think, well, first of all, you're not doing anything about it because you can't control other people. But also how great that they're learning that sometimes people are a little limited and they're going to say crazy stuff and sometimes people respond to you in a different way and then the kids get to figure out who they're going to go to for different things. I, I think it's wonderful. But I also now I think this is my worrying side. Whenever I'm in conversations, is there somebody out there thinking, there is no father figure in my child's life, so now what?

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Yeah, I mean, and I think everybody's family configuration is different. You know, I know lots of single parents that are doing an incredible job. So I think, you know, if you're raising a boy or a girl, I think it's good for both boys and girls to have strong male role models. I think there's a lot to be said for male teachers, male coaches, male babysitters. You know, one of my whole things around, like, a lot of people are shaky when they become parents because they've never held and interacted with babies. Like, it's actually great for teenage boys to get babysitting experience.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

So true. What a great call.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Like, we don't normalize that enough, but, like, it's great for older brothers to take care of younger siblings. Like, it's great for everybody to learn how to take care of little people. So I think, you know, you can mindfully look for those kinds of figures. I think one thing that's alarming is that there has been a decline in the number of male teachers, especially elementary school teachers. I think as the profession has gotten kind of more feminized, and because, frankly, we don't pay enough, a lot of men opt out of teaching careers. And that's a real loss for kids. Right. Because, again, you do benefit from these different styles and different energies. So I think it is possible to mindfully create these communities where you have really positive male role models, whether it's like a grandparent or a friend or a teacher. But, you know, you have to sort of figure out your own way to put that together.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

So are there particular areas where dads. I'm just thinking of examples where dads can show their support and be awesome dads to, but maybe get blocked out of it. So I'm thinking, like, when there's a preferred parent, and if the preferred parent is mom, and then dad says, well, the baby prefers mom. So I'm just. I'm gonna pass this moment off versus just being like, they might prefer mom, but I'm here and I love you, and I'm just sticking with this.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Yeah.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

What are those moments that we can sort of help along?

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Yeah, that's a great question. Like, how can we help dads stay in the picture, even if, you know, the kid has their own preferences? And I think it's totally normal for kids to prefer different parents at different times. Like, when I was pregnant and had my second kid, my older daughter went through this huge, like, only daddy phase, to the point where we had, like, a book about, like, animals and their mothers, and she would insist that we read it as though they were all daddies. And, like, it used to really bug me. Sure.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

It felt great.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

The hormones. Yes, exactly. Like, I had this new baby. I was, like, already super emotional, and I had this toddler who was just rejecting me at every turn, and only daddy could put her to bed. Only daddy can feed me my breakfast. So I'm here to say that's totally normal. And I think sometimes when it happens to men, they feel like, well, this already plays into my sort of belief that women are innately more talented at caregiving or that they have some intrinsic wiring that I don't have. The fact is, it's just kids are fickle and like they're gonna need different things at different times. And I think especially when mom is breastfeeding those first few years, like, there's a lot of comfort and nurturing that comes from that relationship. That's hard for men to replicate, but you just kind of have to stick with it. And for my dad Brain book, I talk to someone who studies boys and men. His name is Richard Reeves. He writes this, the Institute of Boys and Men. Really interesting guy who's all about sort of like, how do we help boys thrive in society? And he talked to me about fatherhood. And one thing he said that I thought was really interesting is that in the UK you can take paternity leave up until when your kid is 13. And that actually, like we think of sort of the baby and toddler years as like those are the key years for dads to come online. That might not be true. Like dads might come into their own most when kids are teens. And you know, Richard Reeves was telling me with his own sons, he felt a little lost during the baby years. But when his kids were teens, he took them on backpacking trips, he taught them to drive. Like the relationship took on its own specialness that in some ways, like, he felt like his kids needed their dad even more than they needed their mom during those years.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

So I think it's really interesting to think about, like how much we glorify the 0 to 3 or the 0 to 5. Is that like a very maternally driven model of like when kids needs parents? Because parents can come in at all different times and be really important for kids. And so the bottom line from Richard Reeves was like, we shouldn't be benching dads just because they don't know what to do at different points in their kids lives. Like you matter kind of at every stage of the way, maybe even when your kids are adults. That's when you can really clock in and make a big difference.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Right. So there's always an opportunity.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

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[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

As flattering as I would like it.

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[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

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[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

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[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

So when, when we are in an.

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[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

I was thinking, isn't there research on dads and homework with girls? Something along those lines?

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

I don't know but I catch up. Sounds really Interesting. Yeah.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

I think. And I'll check before we put this out into the world. I think particularly with girls, that there are association. More positive associations academically with girls whose fathers do homework with them not doing the homework but scaffolding.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

I totally. I could totally see that. And in fact, with my own 15 year old daughter, I actually, because my interactions with her around schoolwork and homework got so fraught, we had to like deploy my husband to step in. And now he's the guy that checks and sees like, that everything's been turned in. So. And that's just another advantage of, like having different caregivers that can step in in different ways.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

Yeah. And having.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Right. Different areas where you shine. And if that's not your jam for me, I'm very similar to you. Like, a lot of the things that I do in parenting are a result more of my lacing.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

Than.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Than a conscious choice.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Yeah.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

But in the areas like, I am not a person who is good for helping with homework or having the executive function skills to monitor any of that.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Yeah.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

So I'm not going to be modeling the best executive function skills for someone else. But I also think some people enjoy, like, if a dad enjoys going camping or a dad enjoys like, oh, this is concrete.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

I.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Homework's concrete. Like, this is more my speed than just having like, lengthy conversations about feelings and gossip or whatever it is. This episode should just be called Liza Makes All Generalizations.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

I think that's right, though, that we all have different things we gravitate to and different strengths. And I have a chapter in the dad Brain book about sports dads because I think that's one of the more socially accepted ways for men to get really involved.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

And there are some really intense sports dads out there. Like, you know, we've been talking about cognitive labor and how moms are more likely to do it, but the amount of executive work that goes into administering a sports league is off the charts. And so there are men that are putting in hours and hours and hours, and that's the way that they're showing up. And that's a very socially sanctioned way to show up.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

David Yeager at Texas University of Texas Austin, who.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

He does Little League.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Like, that is his entire, like, focus, has his, like, extracurricular dad activity. And I think that requires so much labor.

[Podcast Host/Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Oh, my gosh. And. And not just cognitive labor, but emotional labor right there. Just wait. Because it's not even just your kids, but now you're also supporting all these other budding humans. I just think that's wild. That's something that you could get really invested in and think is interesting, whereas I would not.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

It's a way to show up.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Yeah, it's such a great way to show up.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

My husband loves baseball. He coached our son's team. And it's true, like, when the kids are younger, every time they strike out, they cry. Like, it is a lot of, like, pep talks and, you know, supporting this, like, growing emotional regulation set of abilities. We don't necessarily appreciate it as this, like, part of the parenting basket, but it absolutely is. And so I just feel like anyone who wants to show up in any way that they can, that's great for kids. I'm not a sports fan. I don't understand what the scores mean, but I don't have to worry about it because I know my husband's into it and he's got the app that tracks like all the standings and like, he, you know, knows who's like, pitching well that day and who's not. I'm always like, if my kid is up to bat, I will look. Otherwise, like, this could just be like static on a TV screen for me. But, like, that's where kind of going back to this idea of like, we should parent in community. And it's not a one person job. And even if you're a single parent, I think that's true. It's even more true in a lot of ways. Like, we need relief pinch hitters to keep up with the baseball metaphor. But just like you want a team, like, it's a team sport, it's like a collective societal responsibility and we should not hesitate to, like, tap in whoever is willing to help and be involved with our kids.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

So instead of the feeling of like, I shouldn't need help, it should be like, if somebody offers help, which is such a. Vivek Murthy came on and he said that something that he recommends so much is just like, offer the specific help to somebody who's become a new parent because he remembered so much. Like, just somebody saying, I'm going to hold the baby for a little while was so helpful.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Yes.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

And we don't realize, we forget how even just coming over and doing that is so helpful. And it's not a sign of weakness to accept that help. We're not supposed to be doing this all on our own.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

No. Like, we did not evolve to do this solo. Like, we would not survive as a species if we didn't know how to parent collectively as a group. And we do. My lab actually does classes with Expectant moms at a safety net sort of healthcare center in downtown la, where moms are coming in with a lot of really big challenges in their lives. And we do, like, a psychoeducation. Like, here's how to recognize the signs of perinatal depression. Here's what you can do about it. But one of the big things we do at the end of this workshop, we do it once a month for whichever patients want to show up.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

I will put that in the show notes for anybody local.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Totally. Yeah. But we have them fill out a worksheet where we have them try to come up with where they will get social support after the baby's born. Because a lot of these moms are pregnant. And. And so we try to encourage them to be really specific about what they might need and who they can ask. So it's like, maybe your younger brother isn't the guy who's, you know, gonna be able to, like, hold the baby all night, but he might be able to pick up groceries for you or put oil in your car.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

You know, and maybe there's a grandmother that can help with some of the baby care, and maybe there's a friend who can, you know, help mow the lawn, you know, like, whatever it is that you need. And we encourage them to think really broadly and think about, like, who in your network can you tap into, like, one of my favorite things, when I was a new mom, I joined the Silver Lake Moms Club, and they just had this, like, dinner exchange. And so you kind of paid it forward. When I was pregnant, I brought dinner to three different moms. And then when I was in my first week postpartum, I had three different moms bring dinner to me. And it was just this, like, wasn't a big deal for me to bring dinner when I was five months pregnant, but it was a huge deal to get dinner when I was three days postpartum. And so any way that we can structure stuff like that in our communities, I think we can show up for each other. But we're in a culture that's so individualistic and where we fear asking for a lot of help, we really have to normalize. I think that this is a collective, like, raising a child, not to be like Hillary Clinton. It takes a village, but it really does take a village. And we sort of have to embrace that and recognize that.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

And to your point of, at the very beginning, if the act of caring helps our brains, then you're also doing somebody a favor, giving them an opportunity to help you.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Yeah.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Like, when's the last time somebody asked you for help that it didn't feel so good to be able to be like, I. I can help with that.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Yeah, yeah. Like, I actually think we like to feel of service to other people, and it is a source of meaning and connection, and we could all use more of that.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

I probably should have asked you to do this in the beginning, but I'm asked now. Can you just tell us the research that you're doing on dads?

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Totally. Yeah. So I am a professor at the University of Southern California, and I run a lab, it's called the NEST Lab, which stands for the Neuroendocrinology of Social Ties because I love acronyms. Our study is called the Hatch Study, which stands for Hormones across the transition to childbearing. And I launched that study about eight years ago. We bring expectant parents into the lab in about mid to late pregnancy, and they're expecting their first child. And we have the couple, we take their hair, their saliva, their blood. We wanna look at hormones. We have them talk about what they're expecting from the transition to parenthood, how they plan to divide up baby care. We have them do a conflict discussion. So we look at sort of like how they're negotiating and problem solving in their relationship. And we have them fill out a whole bunch of mental health questionnaires. And then six months after their baby is born, they come back to the lab, they do pretty much all the same stuff, except that this time they have the baby with them. So we look at parent child play, we look at how mental health looks after birth, how the transition to parenthood is going. And then we've continued to follow these families. And the dad piece is that because I wanted this study design of couples in pregnancy who I was going to follow till after birth. I was coming off of a postdoc where I was pregnant and was not allowed to go into our scanner room because of safety concerns. And so I was like, how am I going to scan anybody's brain if I've got all these pregnant people in the lab? And so that's when, just out of sheer convenience, it hit on me. Why don't I just scan the dads? Like they're going to be here. Let's just get their brains in the scanner. And once I had that idea, I started reading up on the dad brain literature and was fascinated to see there is a lot of evidence that you see brain change in biparental mammals. And I started to get really interested in fathers in their own right, because I think they're really interesting example of a population that does not go through the physiological changes of pregnancy, but does acquire caregiving experience. So what is just pure caregiving experience due to our brain and body? So that's sort of the Hatch study as it was originally conceived. And now we're doing kind of Hatch two, or I call it Hatched, where we're bringing the families back into the lab with their kids who are 6 and 7 years old. And so this time we're scanning dad again and we're scanning the kid. And we're also looking at kind of mental health and child outcomes and family functioning. And we have not even started to scratch the surface of those data because we're still collecting them.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Oh, I'm so excited.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

We have so much work to do to just like unpack and see what we're finding. But from the original Hatch study, we have unearthed evidence that men's brains are changing from prenatal to postpartum. And they seem to be changing in ways that track with parental involvement, mental health, testosterone, which is one of the hormones that we look at. And they seem to be meaningful for parenthood.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

That is incredible.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

I mean, I'm a very optimistic person, but I do feel like we are at a possible inflection point around better supporting parents because there's all this concern around the birth rate. There is this worry that because people aren't having babies, like, that's gonna affect our sort of long term national security and economic prosperity. There was just a New York Times article about the White House is trying to figure out ways to get women to have more babies. I think that the approaches that they plan to take are questionable because to me, one secret ingredient is how do you deploy fathers? Like, there's a lot of focus on what women should do and not do around having kids and parenting. But I think the interesting story of the last century is the extent to which men have stepped up and that actually, like, it's really meaningful and powerful for men to be involved as fathers. And if you ask people what is the most important thing in your life, men are as likely as women to say, it's my role as a parent. And we also have evidence that being a parent is neuroprotective in late life. So there's all this cool research from the UK Biobank, which is like this huge collection of brains that finds that the more kids you have, the younger your brain actually looks. They have like a brain age measuring algorithm. And when you compare somebody's estimated brain age to their Chronological age, the brain looks younger among people that have had more children. And what's cool is you see it in men and in women, which means it's not just again, about pregnancy hormones and you know, all the stuff that's happening biologically to women. It really is, I think, around care and social integration. And we know that men who are isolated have higher all cause mortality than men who are socially connected.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

I was just thinking about that.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Totally. And like, the loneliness epidemic is particularly acute for men because they are more likely to report that they're lonely and that they're isolated and they're less plugged into institutions like marriage. And so I think actually becoming a dad is one of the most powerful things a man can do to have a better life.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

It's meaning making and it is inevitably community building.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Yeah, exactly.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

That is so. That is such a profound point. Just as we're writing about this crisis in men.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Yeah.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

That should be hand in hand with the conversation about fatherhood.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Yeah. Because it's like, it's legacy building. It's about like, what is my contribution to the world. But it's about showing up also in a different way. Like as someone who is caring and nurturing and not just as someone who is aggro and competitive. Like, there are a lot of great things about conventional masculinity, but it can be very limiting. And I talked to a lot of guys from my book who said, you know, like, when I think about masculinity, I think of like the YMCA coaches who were super encouraging with the young boys and like help them do batting practice. Or I think about like the leader who cares about all the people in his organization. Like those are visions of masculinity that are really pro social and positive that we can celebrate that are sort of tied up with this notion of being a good father, a good nurturer that are so different from I think like the fragile masculinity that we see in the kind of manosphere right now.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Right. It's interesting because just thinking about even of course, dad brain makes sense if you're thinking you're trying out, like you're exercising a totally different kind of muscle. I mean, in quotes, muscle of the brain. So of course it's so ripe for growth and it's just all new areas and you can't possibly know how those areas could feel without, you know, experiencing that level of connection and love.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Yeah, yeah. I think love is good for all of us.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

What a nice way to end that.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Go love. Go love. Please note that this episode may contain.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a.

[Dr. Darby Saxbe]

Direct or indirect financial interest in products.

[Dr. Aliza Pressman]

Or services referred to in this episode.