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Raising Good Humans
Why Play is so Crucial for Development & The Science Behind it with Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
01:02:09
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- [00:01]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
The following podcast is a Dear Media production.
- [00:10]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Welcome to Raising Good Humans podcast.
- [00:12]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yay.
- [00:13]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
I'm Dr. Eliza Pressman. This is Dr. Tina Payne Bryson. And I'm so excited to have you back for the 782nd time.
- [00:22]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
I love it.
- [00:23]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
If people don't know you already, you are brilliant. You are probably, I would say, the first person. You and Dan Siegel, the first people who co authored the most game changing books in the field.
- [00:40]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Wow.
- [00:41]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
I. I think about that. And it was like the beginning of a totally new era that has gotten more popular with the rise of social media and content being more available. But you were both together the first to say, hey, we could look at our parenting in a different kind of way and a much more thoughtful approach, considering brain development and child development and human development and psychology and the whole shebang. So I really, like, I just always get so honored that you're here, even though you're also a very dear friend.
- [01:19]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yes.
- [01:20]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
But I'm honored that you're a very dear friend.
- [01:22]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yes. Oh, my gosh, thank you. You're one of my very favorite humans in the whole world. And so I just, it was like my highlight of the week knowing I was going to come hang out with you. Yay.
- [01:33]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
And I just want to brag a little bit more, which is not only are you such a brilliant contributor to this field, you also, every time you do something, you. You kind of put whatever it is that you're trying to sell on the back burner because you're trying to heal the world every day. And so you had a new book come out very recently, the Way of Play.
- [01:57]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yeah.
- [01:58]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
And it came out exactly when the LA fires started. And you were in LA and you are in Pasadena, adjacent to, like the center of the fires. And you have the center for Connection, which is for anybody who needs a resource in Los Angeles or really Santa Barbara and the surrounding areas. It's the most incredible resource for families. But then you had a lot of people, not just that you were caring for, but your clinicians lose homes and dealing with that. And anyway, and the school where I've.
- [02:32]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Worked for 12 years, the consulting. Yeah. Gone. Gone. Along with 14 other schools in our area. It was a big loss.
- [02:38]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
It was a big loss. So you were not promoting your book.
- [02:41]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
I wasn't. It just didn't feel I wanted to have my hands in there helping people. And it was kind of tricky too, Eliza, because, you know, we know we're gonna talk about play. Play is such an incredible way to protect against trauma, to process trauma. So I knew the content was important, but there were greater needs at the time. And so what was great is you and so many other of my colleagues whose work I just adore and worship, you guys were out there helping promote it, too. So it was. It was the right thing to do, is to step back and wait. And my books, it's funny, you know, both whole brainchild and no drama discipline that are the ones that people most know me for, you know, they weren't New York Times bestsellers at the time. At the beginning, it took a. You know, so that my books kind of have long tails. So it didn't. I just had to remind myself, you know, what my goal when I write these books and all my life's work is about impact. And so there's no rush.
- [03:33]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Well, on that note, whether people want to get the book right this second or not, let's talk about play. But it is true, the longevity and relevance of these books is pretty impressive. And so I want to talk about play because it doesn't get enough play.
- [03:53]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
That was clever.
- [03:54]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah. And I think we should go through first, normal, developmental, like play.
- [04:02]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yep.
- [04:02]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
And how beneficial it is. I don't know that people realize how beneficial it is because I'm sure you've heard this much. I have heard this so much. My kids aren't doing anything during preschool. They're just playing. What else can I do? I hear that all the time.
- [04:17]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Like they need enrichment.
- [04:18]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yes.
- [04:19]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
As opposed, like, as if it's something different.
- [04:21]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
As if it's something different. So I think it's really cool to find out how enriching play is. And then even from infancy, just understanding play as just such an important aspect of development. And then we're going to talk about how it can support mental health.
- [04:38]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yeah. And how to do it.
- [04:40]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
And then how to do it. Most importantly, this book gives you. Because some of us were not put on this earth to play. No, I wasn't.
- [04:46]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Me neither.
- [04:46]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
I wasn't.
- [04:47]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yeah. I. I'm. I like to be really productive.
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Unknown
Yeah.
- [04:50]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
So sitting and playing sometimes felt excruciating.
- [04:53]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Like a. A little bit of a chore.
- [04:55]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
A lot of a chore. Yeah. So that's what's so interesting is, you know, I wasn't planning on writing another book. Right. But Georgie Wisen Vincent, who's my co author on this book, is a brilliant play therapist who. She and I started something called the Play Strong Institute, which is a smaller subset of our center for Connection to really promote the training of play therapy in the world and to promote Parent for parents, educators and clinicians. How do we kind of take a neurodevelopmental, relational approach that I've written about in that's My Life's Work and bring it into play, whether it's in schools or in clinical offices or in homes. And so she came to me with this, like, idea and all this text that was gonna turn into a parenting course that she wanted us to do together. And when I read it, I was like, damn it, this is a book. Like, we gotta share this with more people. It's so important. And really, I hear all the time, and I know you do, too, that parents are like, play's my kid's favorite thing to do. This is what they wanna be doing. And parents often think of it as a way to pass the time.
- [05:56]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Right?
- [05:56]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Like, it's just how you get through the day. But let's start with exactly where you wanted to start, which is, what are the benefits? Why? Why is it so important? We all know it's important, but why?
- [06:08]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Why is it important?
- [06:09]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
And I'll start with kind of something really upsetting in a way, which is, of course, we're going to talk about all the benefits. But play can be thought of as a huge protective factor. And what I mean by that is illustrated by. There was this guy named Stuart Brown. You probably know him well in his stuff because you're like, you know all this stuff better than anyone, which is why I love talking to you. Stuart Brown was a professor at the University of Texas at the time that kind of the first big, really, like, public school shooting in the US which was in the late 60s. The guy went up on the top of the big tower at the University of Texas in Austin and shot a bunch of people. And he wanted to understand how something like that could happen. And he went and interviewed. He wrote this beautiful book called Play that I love. He went and interviewed every death row inmate in the state of Texas. And he found two things in common that won't surprise you. One is a severe history of abuse. The second one was. And I don't know why he thought to do this, but he took a play history, and none of them had much at all of a history of play in childhood.
- [07:16]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Don't you think that was a brilliant thing to do?
- [07:19]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
How did he think of. Think of that? I don't know, but brilliant. There was something he. There must have been something that he knew that that was, you know, a protective factor in some form or fashion. And so then we can kind of bring it into more like how parents are thinking about things. And you and I can just go back and forth. We could, we could spend the whole episode just talking about the benefits. Easily better problem solving, right? So when you're. I think about that episode on Friends when Ross and Rachel and Chandler are trying to get the couch up the stairs. You know, the pivot episode, you know what I'm talking about? Listen, that skill starts with like that little toy that has the shapes on the top and you're trying to manipulate the shapes, right. And when the way you're doing it doesn't work, you have to adjust, you know. And that leads me to kind of this other big piece which people talk about emotional regulation all the time. I love if we should, we should define it. I love Dan Siegel's definition of emotional regulation, which is the ability to monitor and modify. And on the way here, there was a fire truck. Loud, loud sirens. And there was a grandmother pushing her grandchild in the crosswalk. And the thing was going right by, so it was super loud. Grandma reached down, got her face closer and like kind of pulled the blankets up around baby's ears. It was really a sweet moment. And I was like, that's regulation right there. She was monitoring, ooh, that might be too loud for the baby's ears. That might be startling. And then she modified something to make it more tolerable. That's. That's really what co regulation is.
- [08:44]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah, that is a beautiful co regulation.
- [08:46]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yeah. Monitoring and modify someone else's, you know, the child estate. So play is constantly adjusting, monitoring, like, oh, this isn't working for me or I don't like this, or I want to try this. And so constantly modifying. So it's really a regulation based thing. Obviously cognitive development, linguistic development, motor development, you know, by the way, I don't know.
- [09:09]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
So obviously cognitive development. But even just using the, the. I mean, just because you hear so often people say, you know, what can we do for enrichment? And it's not play. But when you go back to the couch scenario with Chandler, et cetera, or the shapes, you think about cognitive flexibility and how you have to pivot and all of the ways that you're coming up with different solutions.
- [09:34]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Totally.
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Dr. Eliza Pressman
So you have and, and critical thinking and all of the problem solving skills goes into the bucket of like stretching your cognitive muscles.
- [09:42]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Totally. Like think about. My boys love to build forts and with out of couch cushions. And lots of times the things they would try didn't work. Right? They didn't work. They would fall, whatever. And so they have to cognitively Think about angles and weight and gravity and all of these things that are cognitive skills.
- [10:02]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
And then when people talk about, well, how do I bolster math skills? You don't need to do something like flashcards. You just need to play.
- [10:11]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yeah.
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Dr. Eliza Pressman
And then you're learning all of that. It's the. The in. It's just so incredible. So I think it's helpful to step back and watch your kids play sometimes when just like, observe and you can think about, like, what are all the wild skills that are developing right now?
- [10:27]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
What's happening in that brain that's firing? Let's just say, okay, a new ocean creature has been discovered. And you look at it and you're like, what does it do and where does it live and how does it eat and what are those things sticking out of it? Do? Like, if we come across something we've never before and we observe it with curiosity, it's kind of fascinating. If we can kind of like make ourselves observe our child with fresh eyes and be like, I'm going to observe this child as if I don't know them and I don't, you know, like, I'm going to watch and see what happens. It's actually kind of. It can be actually really emotional because you're like, oh, my God, they're so amazing. They're so precious. But to. Yeah, to kind of curiously observe, like, what things that are happening, you know.
- [11:05]
Unknown
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- [14:17]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Thinking about how because I wasn't great at play, but there were certain things. Any lazy play was more my jam. A couch.
- [14:24]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Couch potato play.
- [14:25]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Couch potato play. And so like you know, even understanding directionally what's happening and the words that you can use to describe what is going on in the play or just saying like over and under something. There's so much going on. So talk a little bit more about each of those areas because I just think we're selling play right now a little bit because I do believe people think play based learning is very important. But there's like that little tiny question mark in people's minds of like is it really, really enough? Like am I. Because why is that child over there who's doing, you know. Do you remember Parenthood?
- [15:03]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yes.
- [15:03]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
The movie Parenthood.
- [15:04]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
I love it.
- [15:04]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Right.
- [15:05]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
I should watch it again this weekend.
- [15:06]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
That would be really fun. But I remember the, the one, Rick Moranis or whatever he was the dad that was doing flashcards. And then that kid seemed so brilliant and impressive and Then the other, you know, Steve Martins is like banging himself.
- [15:23]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
In the head, totally banging his head on the wall.
- [15:25]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
So I think that it can, you know, you can forget in the long game what is going on if you're just looking at play as silliness and fun. But it's also silly and fun, which builds connection. But I just want to pitch a little bit more of the other stuff.
- [15:41]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yeah. And before I do, I think what you, that key that you, you said something that was really key there, which is playful and silly and fun, when we are laughing or something is silly and fun, it actually primes our brain to be more receptive to learning. So it actually is like the, the primer on the wall for, for something to stick. So linguistically, if you think about just imaginary play, for example, you have to describe something that isn't real. You know, your child has to describe something that isn't real. And especially when we're talking about child led play, which is what the book is really focused on with some parental sort of interface, when we talk about the strategies, you'll see what I mean. The child has to bring you into a world that they are creating and they have to describe it to you. They have to language for you, what they want you to do. And lots of times we do it wrong. They're like, not like that, you know, and then you have to show sort of some behavioral agility there too. But they are describing things that don't exist. So they have to find words and build vocabulary in order to kind of help you unfold into that world that they're developing and then think about when they're playing with. And obviously there's lots different types of play. Right. So there's solo independent play, the kid on their own, kids need much more of that. There's play with a peer and kids need much more of that. And so. And then what my book is about with Georgie is about parent, child or dyadic play. So teacher child, parent child, grandparent child, et cetera. But when you're talking about two siblings playing or a kid and a neighbor, they have to encourage the other child to go along with what they're wanting to do.
- [17:17]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
So there's following rules and learn how to communicate those rules and not working memory.
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Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yes, working memory. Yeah. And how do I talk them into doing this? So how do I sell it? Right. So there's even like tuning into the mind of another. So there's that like that example is like linguistic, it's social, it's relational, and it's also very sophisticated cognitively because it's like if I'm like, well you should take this because it's not, it's not as much fun and I don't want to do it. The kid's not going to do it. But if you're like, you should be the princess because she is going to be the one that everyone loves, then the other kid's like, sure. So it even I know that sounds manipulative, but it's really the idea of bolstered executive functions. It is. And tuning into the mind of another. And so that's the underpinning of not only insight, but empathy.
- [18:04]
Unknown
Yes.
- [18:04]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
And really insight, internal like awareness of self and awareness of another person. Those are sort of two sides of the same coin. Insight and empathy. So that is a huge piece of why it's so important in terms of mental health down the road too is because it gives the ability to help them monitor their own states and modify them monitor and modify the states of the person that they're playing with. And of course that happens through, through us co regulating with our kids too. And then one other, there's a million more. But one other one that I think is really important that we haven't talked about is fine motor, gross motor, you know, body skills. And I've spent a lot of time in schools and teachers are telling me that they have a hard time more now than ever with kids being able to sit because they don't have enough core strength in their body. And handwriting. If you walk into a first or second third grade classroom, very few kids have proper handwriting. Grit.
- [19:02]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
That's so interesting.
- [19:03]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
And a big piece of that is you have to have enough core strength in your body to hold yourself up so that you're postured well so that then eventually kind of down river your hand can hold your utensil correctly. And part of that is because kids aren't getting enough time outside. They're not climbing things, they're not playing the same amount that they should be playing and need to be playing. But also parents are anxious about how their kids play. So they're like, get down.
- [19:28]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
That's not like all the things that like make you have to figure out your muscles. We're stopping them. I even this is totally not evidence based. So I'm just.
- [19:39]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
If you're saying it, I believe it, whatever it's going to be.
- [19:42]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
But that just makes me think even down to the fine motor skill of feeding yourself, picking up the Cheerio, picking up a Cheerio. So you have pincher Grasp, which leads to tripod grasp, which makes it easier to have beautiful writing, which is predictive of literacy. All these little things that we're like doing for our kids take away from this vital learning for gross and fine motor skills. Yeah, but it's all well meaning and out of love. So we're just trying to give permission maybe to step back a little bit.
- [20:14]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
To step back a little. And I am a chronic over functioner, so it's something I have to constantly watch myself. I, I definitely, in fact one of my sons, my kids love to poke fun at me. I'm definitely, it may be my youngest that's the most poked fun at, but I don't know. He and I are in competition. But I remember like one of my sons said my book, no Drama Discipline. He created his own document called Full Drama Discipline. And it's really where he notes all of the times that I did not practice what I had written about. And he made his own book cover and everything really fun. But jp, my youngest is about to graduate from high school, but a year ago he had shoulder surgery and so he couldn't cut his own meat. But my, my middle son took a picture of me cutting his meat for him as a, like, if you, you know, I'm gonna show that you're still cutting your kids meat kind of thing. So, but, but I do, I tend to over function and I think we definitely step into kids play too much. We over function even in their play. And that's really, we have to remember, you know, when an infant is born, their very first language is non verbal. Right. The cries, the smiles, the eye contact, all of that. But really before they have robust vocabularies and can speak at all, play is their language. So it really is their, a primary language, maybe their second language. And so we really want to, we can get to know our kids so much by observing their play. If we kind of join them in that world, we can learn so much about their sensory preferences, what lights them up, what interests them, what they don't like, how they function in all kinds of ways. But we tend to be intrusive in their play because we're trying to make it too didactic, we're trying to make it too enriched. And we really can trust that play, however it unfolds, even if it scares us a little. It seems too aggressive. And we can talk about that too. It is so powerfully doing the work for you. And listen, it's hard enough, we're doing enough, we have enough that we have to function in we can trust that so much is happening, even without us messing it up or getting into it, just letting them play. And, you know, like, we'll talk about this when we get to the strategies, too. But emotional vocabulary comes from. That's another facet of sort of the linguistic. One of my very favorite toys ever in the history of the world is Styrofoam. And don't go out and buy it. You know, you order like, we ordered an extra area.
- [22:34]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
It'll come.
- [22:35]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
It comes in the mail. You order something, right? You order something. The last cool one I got was. I have, like, a weird obsession with it now. We ordered an extra air purifier. We had horrible air here in Los Angeles, so I ordered an extra air purifier. And, you know, Styrofoam, the kind of thick Styrofoam that comes around, you know, the. So it's shaped around whatever you're having shipped to you often. It has, like, ledges and dips and holes in it and different things like that. And it floats. It's the best bath time toy.
- [23:04]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
I never thought about that.
- [23:05]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
It floats in the water and then there's holes. Like, super guys can jump through it. You can set it up as like a floating restaurant, you know, Earth friendly. You're being Earth friendly because it's packaging that's already come. But even that alone, like, this is how we learn math. You're like, okay, look, how many guys can jump through. Okay, let's count them together. And you can make it fun like that. So anyway, there are so many ways without spending any money to do this as well. But okay, so we've talked about all these things that play is so powerful, why it's so powerful. And. And I'm. I'm going to push it. It's not just. It's powerful. Yes, I would say it is absolutely crucial for development. And without it in absence, it's a problem. Big problems.
- [23:46]
Unknown
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- [26:54]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
I want to add one more please to our list of things to talk about because I was thinking of this because you mentioned if play gets aggressive and maybe that can be scary for us. I. I want to tell this story without it outing people in my life but many years ago we were in Central park hanging out some friends of mine. I have daughters as you know so I they didn't have. They had pretty stereotypical girl play and there wasn't as much rough housing but the. Some. Some brothers came to join us and they were just really wrestling and we were just yapping and enjoying ourselves and my girls were definitely like what is happening? But whatever. Everybody seemed okay and then Another family came with their two sons. And so the boys, which was just, just a funny, interesting choice on their part, they observed like they didn't try to roughhouse with my girls, but as soon as those boys came over, they like tackled them. And those boys aren't allowed to roughhouse in their household. And their faces turned so red and they looked dangerously dysregulated and like a fight was happening. Like a fight was happening.
- [28:09]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Attack.
- [28:10]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
And it was so interesting. And I realized that the parents who don't allow roughhousing their kids missed out on these wildly wonderful opportunities to self regulate and to figure out how to say enough is enough, but to also understand if they're doing too much. Whereas the boys who were roughhousing all the time knew to stop. They saw how upset they were getting. And I thought that was really interesting. And it, you just reminded me of that. So it might be worth going through that kind of roughhousing as well for play.
- [28:41]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
So you know what's really interesting about that is that we have to remember that as parents we are meaning makers for our kids. I know, I say that all the time. I've probably said it on your podcast before.
- [28:50]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Please always say it.
- [28:51]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
And so if you have a parent who's who themselves starts feeling dysregulated when that kind of roughhouse play starts happening.
- [28:58]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yes.
- [28:59]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Then they may stop it and give give messaging around. That's really dangerous. Someone's going to get hurt and you know, which of course are things we should say to our kids if it's escalating. Right. But I think those kids have had clearly had the association with that kind of thing is danger, danger, danger. But I love what you said, and this is actually one of the strategies in the book is called dialing intensity up and down. And it's very much what you're just talking about. The boys who had that experience. Experience already knew to monitor and modify. They had some regulation strategies there and they could tell that it was too much for the boys and could reign themselves in. But what if your kid doesn't? Right? If your kid doesn't. Okay, so think about this. And it could be that scenario or it could be a scenario where you have a kid, you're at the park and your kid has this big stick and it's like smashing all these bushes and flowers and they're destroying property. Right. Even so what if you say in that moment, stop it, you're hurting this stuff and I'm taking the stick away. Okay, that's fine. But what if you Think about this. It's missing a huge opportunity if you just stop it. And sometimes you have to stop it.
- [29:59]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Sometimes if it's too dangerous, it's too dangerous. Or.
- [30:02]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Or if you have to go. I mean, there's a million reasons you might need to stop it. Right? But what if instead you say, pause, timeout, hold on. You know, and said, you're hitting that. You're hitting those bushes really, really hard. I'm wondering if you can show me what medium looks like. What does medium look like? And what does gentle look like? And you're basically teaching them strategies to put on the brakes, to slow things down, to monitor their body and the force. So this is like physics. It's. I think. I don't really know what physics are, although your daughter can teach me. But it's. It's really teaching impulse control. Right. So that's another benefit is impulse control. And we're helping them dial the intensity from too high down a little bit. Or, you know, if they're too rough with a sibling. Right. Say, oh, what does. Show me what gentle looks like? And. Or if you were. You think about a gentle animal. What's a gentle animal? Like a panda or something. Be like, oh, can you do it like a panda would do it? So you can even be playful in how you make those requests. One other thing I'll say about. So, yeah, we can use those moments to kind of dial the intensity down and have them practice reining themselves in and noticing how other people are impacted. One other thing about rough and tumble play, the science is clear that people who have more rough and tumble wrestling kind of play, which I felt really anxious about in my home. And I. I will say one of our boys did get a concussion from wrestling in the living room.
- [31:21]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
You also have football player children.
- [31:22]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
I do. And we didn't have good carpet pad. I bought the cheap padding. I should have bought better padding. I should have known better. They, you know, the rough and tumble play is linked with being a better dancer and a better lover.
- [31:35]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Oh, I know.
- [31:36]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
And better at sports because you have to learn how to time your body in coordination with another body. Whoa. Right?
- [31:43]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
So does it seem like wrestlers are particularly skilled?
- [31:45]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Interesting.
- [31:46]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Ew. That thought just. It oohed me.
- [31:50]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
I don't know. I've never thought about that before. I'm sure they're excellent dancers, Alisa. They're excellent dancers. The other thing is a little bit of rough and Tumble play about 45 minutes before bedtime actually releases a lot of energy through proprioceptive Input, vestibular balancing, and all kinds of sensory things that help them bring in more parasympathetic activity after the sympathetic intensity of those moments. So I'm a big fan of that. But with three boys, it. You have to supervise and you have to teach. Like, wait, that was too much. What happened?
- [32:22]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
You know, do they have a safe word or anything like that? Or is that unrealistic?
- [32:26]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
I think that's a great idea.
- [32:27]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Is that something that a mother.
- [32:28]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yeah. Or like a code? Like, what's the code?
- [32:30]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Like we had one, but it was not used much because her house was not. That would be possible. It's the. Their words were more dangerous.
- [32:39]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yeah. If you have kids who are really rough with you or rough with each other, it's a great time to have that kid be like, okay, you're going to now be the referee. You're in charge of. You're in charge of making sure everybody's safe.
- [32:51]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
And the kid is making that suggestion.
- [32:53]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
No, we're. I'm making that suggestion. So I say to the. So if I say to a kid who's being too rough, let's say you have a kid who's being too rough with you, with a sibling, with friends. What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna say, hey, you're gonna be the safety monitor. You're in charge. You're the referee. So you make sure everybody's safe. And so how are you gonna do that? And then you have other people wrestling where. And then they have to practice paying attention with an eye toward everybody's safety.
- [33:14]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
I love that.
- [33:15]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
And then that gets them some of those reps of watch that. And what wouldn't be safe as they're watching other people do it.
- [33:22]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
That is so great strategy and non threatening. Yeah, I, I want to give one little example to expand on and then I want more strategies from the book. I just want to make sure people don't confuse roughhousing with just, you know, like your kid slaps you in the face.
- [33:39]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yeah. That's not rough housing.
- [33:41]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Just. Just to clarify because I think sometimes when we're talking, we take for granted that people will know those distinguishing pieces. And I just happen to have been with. With a parent and child who were chatting and the child hit the parent. It was a mom on the face and she kept talking and then the child hit the mom on the face again. And I'm never saying anything. I'm more like observing on safari. But I was thinking she probably in continuing to keep talking to me was just sort of Asking for her face to be slapped over and over.
- [34:17]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yeah.
- [34:17]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
But in her mind, I think she felt like that was a roughhousing kind of moment. And she's heard that you have to understand that kids have.
- [34:28]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yeah.
- [34:28]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
You know, roughhousing moments. And I was thinking, no, that's not roughhousing. It's just probably you're paying attention to me and they're being rough to tell you.
- [34:37]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
It sounds to me like it's the beginning of a. Like, on the road toward dysregulation. Bid for connection is kind of what.
- [34:43]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
That sounds great way of doing it.
- [34:45]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
I love that. So. So what I would suggest mom do is. And of course, I would never tell her I'm sitting there with her. I'm not gonna be like, here's what you should do.
- [34:54]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Like, that would be obnoxious.
- [34:55]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Oh, my gosh. I mean, that could be an SNL character of, like, the annoying parenting person who's just always pausing what another parent's doing and weighing in. Oh, my God, that would be hilarious.
- [35:04]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
I did go many, many, many, many years ago. I went to lunch with someone, a colleague who works with parents, and there was something going on at the table next to us, and she turned to the parents and gave a tip. And I was so uncomfortable. I was like, that seems bananas.
- [35:25]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yeah. I mean, it's hard sometimes, you and I out in the world. Like, we know there is something we might be able to do to help, but it's never because I feel like, oh, you're doing it badly. It's almost like I feel bad for the parent, and I want to.
- [35:34]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Like, I want to support, so. But even then, I would never say anything. And also, like, I. Many times I could use that as well, but I'm just not in the headspace for that support.
- [35:45]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
No. You know, the only time I've ever said anything ever, ever, is, like, where the kids melting down, the parents starting to melt down, and I just, like, disconnect, you know, be like, it's so hard, isn't it? It's so hard. You're doing great. Hang in there. Like, that's all I ever do.
- [35:58]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Okay.
- [35:58]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
So, yeah, so that's. That's. There's rough housing. We're talking about kind of rough play, and there's features of play, so we can even define play a little bit more. Play is doing something for the enjoyment of it, just for the sake of the enjoyment of it. Right. It's. It's. It's really emergent in the moment. It is. And there are cues of Safety that are the context around it. Right. Like, even in the attachment science, the way parents play with their kids even doing the same activity is differentiated across different attachment patterns.
- [36:29]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah.
- [36:29]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
So anyway, so rough, rough play is play still. And I love Dr. Michael Thompson's lens on rough boy play that they used to be so helpful to me because I would watch my, you know, I bought my boys lots of typical gendered types of toys. They had baby dolls and vacuums and they had tools and they had, you know, lots and lots of different kinds of toys. And we would have friends who had little girls of the same age that would come over that would like nurture the baby dolls. And of course, there's a huge range of this. I'm just talking about more stereotypical play. But my boys were more interested in how far do you have to push the door when the baby's head is in the door jamb to make the head collapse. And I was like, do I have a sociopath on my hands? Right. And I would read Dr. Michael Thompson's work and I would think, okay, I can trust that it's play. They're experimenting. And when I, he, he recommends that, particularly for moms who are kind of terrified of their children's more aggressive looking play, to talk to any man that they really, really respect, who's a really good man, and ask him how he played when he was a kid and you'll feel better because it is play. And when little girls play house, we're not worried that they're going to get pregnant when they're teenagers. Right.
- [37:41]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
It's play.
- [37:41]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
It's play. It's just, it's for fun. Okay, so here we've talked about all the good parts of play. One thing I want to say before we get into the strategies, if it's okay, is that the reason I wanted to write this book is because so much of the time, so we know it's so important, you and I know in our work and what the science tells us. It's really crucial for all the outcomes we want for our kids, including mental health. And what parents tend to think is it's either a waste of time or a way to just get through the day and just spend the time. Parents also find it really freaking boring sometimes. And I did. It's like if I have to crash super guys into each, like, I might have done better with more traditional girl play. Like, I like coloring, I still like coloring and those kinds of things. I like building. So Legos were fun for me. But crashing super guys into Things like.
- [38:27]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
I thought I was going to lose.
- [38:28]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
My mind, you know, and then parents are like, okay, great, I'm on board, fine, I'll play. I understand I need to do it, or now I want to do it, but I'll sit on the floor. But then what? What do I do? So I think parents feel a little bit paralyzed around it. And then how long do I have to do it? And what happens if it turns in a direction or we start playing and then they get mad when it's time to stop. So there are all these barriers that can get in the way. So that's really why I wanted to write the book with Georgie. So what's great about the strategies in the book is they are things that can be done in literally seconds or minutes. But it's not so much just about the strategies. The reason we called the book the Way of Play is cause it's a way of being with our kids. And the way we do things with them can be fun and playful. One other thing, to tempt parents, regardless of the age of your children. My kids are 18, 22 today and 25. I still work to be playful with them because when we are playful and something is fun, the nervous system says, yeah, let's do more of that. And it's like taking a step toward you.
- [39:30]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Look how desperate I am right now when you said that. Because I also have an emerging leaving the house.
- [39:36]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
I know we both have seniors about to graduate. And when something is not fun and not pleasant, the nervous system says, take a step away from it. Do less of that. Right. So I really feel like to me, one of my biggest accomplishments and I've made a lot of mistakes, but one of my biggest, I kind of feel like outcomes accomplishments is my 25 year old enjoys spending time with us. When he does now, he doesn't want to be with us every day. That's developmentally appropriate. But like he wants to come have dinner with us sometimes because he has fun with us. I feel like that's the goal.
- [40:06]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Right.
- [40:06]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
So what that means though is if we are playful in our way with them, it promotes relationship and connection over the long haul. But play states being silly and fun and enjoying and having a lightness about it is actually neurophysiologically im incompatible with threat states.
- [40:27]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yes.
- [40:28]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
So, and that's from Jaak Panksep's beautiful work with the rats. You know, he was known as the rat tickler. It's like really gross to think about, but when rat pups play and they do, and you Introduce a threat like a cat hair, they just stop playing. So if we want to keep our kids from being in reactive states and having more meltdowns, and I'm not just talking about toddlers, I'm talking about teenagers too. If we can be playful, it's really, really helpful. And then play elicits cooperation in a way that is, I think nothing is more effective than that. So that would mean like, don't get your shoes on today because I'm gonna wear your shoes today and I can't wait to put em on my feet. They're definitely gonna fit right? Like just being silly or. I had a moment with jp. He was supposed to come down for dinner and he was sloth boy, you know, teenage boy in the bed, wasn't moving and I, he was supposed to come down and I went up and he was in his room and I sat on him. I'm five four, he's six one, you know how big he is. He's a giant child.
- [41:25]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah.
- [41:25]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
And I just sat on his legs and I was like, I'm so glad you didn't come downstairs to help with dinner because I'm so tired from coming upstairs to have to get you that I really needed a place to rest. So I'm just being a little sarcastic, but there's a lightness to it. So anyway, I think the strategies are helpful in that you can think for sure. It's a way of being. But the strategies are things we can do in just a couple of minutes.
- [41:47]
Unknown
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- [45:35]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Out of the room.
- [45:35]
Unknown
But how great to know that if you forget, at least it's in sleep mode. There's Also importantly, all profiles are automated into privacy by default, so they're only allowed to be public if you actually make them public. The content restrictions and automatic filters for offensive comments are automated. You don't have to sign them up for it. All of these things are set to automatic so there is no extra work on parents. Instagram is automatically placing teens into teen accounts and teens under 16 will need a parent permission to change any of the settings to be less strict. So Instagram teen accounts will limit who can contact teens and the content they see help ensure teens time on the app is better spent and that I can get behind.
- [46:17]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
My favorite strategy in the book is called bring emotions to Life. And again, we're not being too didactic, we're not intruding too much. We're following our child's lead. But my favorite example of this is Ben loved tying knots. He drove us crazy because he would tie knots around things that needed to not be tied, not tied. Like when you're at the airport trying to get the car seat out and you're rushing for your flight and there's 30 knots on the tail end of the thing and you can't get the car seat out there. Never, never have I seen my husband more mad. That was such a stressful moment. But he was so. He would tie knots to the. He would tie a rope onto a doorknob and then tie the other end of the rope onto like a castle or something. And he'd hand me a super guy. And he would have a super guy. And he'd have his super guy down on the castle. And he would hand me the super guy and say, mom, go up to the, to the rope up there by the doorknob. And he would say, you gotta get this guy down the rope onto the castle. Okay. So he's using like this fun, like imaginary voice thing. And so I could easily go and have the guy like zipline it down, you know, down to the castle. Fine. That's great. I'm following his lead. Super fun. And that's beautiful in and of itself. That's great. But if I want to, if I have a child who is sensitive, who has a little bit more of a slow to warm up temperament, who has fears about trying new things, this is a wonderful time to bring some emotions to life here. So I say I have my character now has some emotion around this. So I introduce emotion into the play, into the character. And I say, but I've never done it before. I'm not sure I can do it. I don't think I can do it. I'm too nervous. So I'm just introducing because I know my kid gets nervous when he tries new things, right? So now if he wants the play to continue, he's four or so in this scenario. If he wants the play to continue, he now has. Okay, so first of all, he's just heard some emotional vocabulary that goes with a situation. That's a new situation. He now has to come up with a solution to this emotional problem if he wants the play to continue. So he has to. So he has to come up with something. He has to problem solve. So he says, don't worry, I'm gonna send a guy up to get you. He's gonna show you the way. So I wait for the guy to come up, then we go down together. Right? That took five seconds.
- [48:27]
Unknown
Right.
- [48:27]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
It was just a brief moment, but. Oh, and that's not gonna make my kid.
- [48:30]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
What you added, though, was so beneficial.
- [48:33]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
So simple. So simple. And honestly, a lot of these strategies, like, we're too tired. We can't be too creative. This is. We don't have to have too much. You're creating, you know, what's called symbolic distance, where we're putting emotion onto. You know, if I sat down, Ben down, and I was like, you know, when you're feeling nervous about new situations, it's not going to be anywhere near as effective as if I use the symbolic distance of these characters. So. So now Ben has. So now it's this tiny little wrap. It's not going to be transformative until there's several of them. But he says in his. His little brain is processing. Oh, well, if you have someone to show you the way or someone who can go with you, or you can test something out first, like, these are all things that might help you feel less nervous. So that's just a simple one. You can introduce motion into the character, or if you're the character, if they're. If you're the. You know, if you're the pirate or you're the sailor and your kid loves bossing you around. So they're probably the captain and they tell you to walk the plank. You know, you can be like, oh, I don't know. I don't know if I can do it. I'm so scared. Is the water gonna be too cold? And you can just bring emotions in, into those moments that allow them to kind of pair emotional vocabulary with different things. Something else implicit happens there, which is we're free to share emotions about how we feel in moments with Each other. So simple.
- [49:42]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
It's so simple. And you said something super important, which is it's still child directed play. And you're amplifying or kind of adding these pieces with very low effort and very little extra time. And it's child directed. So they'll be more engaged.
- [50:03]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yeah.
- [50:03]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Instead of. Because what I wouldn't want people to think is like they have to set up the scenarios and the play and have a goal in mind because not that there isn't room for that sounds tight. Other scenarios, but that's exhausting and also not as effective anyway. So letting our kids drive and then expanding on that is more of the way of play.
- [50:29]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yeah, yeah. You know, I actually used another strategy here accidentally, which is called make yourself a mirror. And it's also really low, low cognitive demand on the parent part. And it's where you basically.
- [50:43]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
I think everything we're talking about.
- [50:45]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
I mean, you have to.
- [50:46]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
We believe in low cognitive.
- [50:47]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
I mean, and it's so exhausting. So exhausting is so basically whatever your kid is doing, you kind of make yourself a mirror with either your body, face, or voice. Not all of it. Now if you, if you just exactly mimic your child, that's annoying. They don't want you to. That's like copying. That's annoying. But if Ben's like, bring this, you know, get this guy down to the ship. I'm like, okay, but I'm not sure I can do it. And I just mirror the voice. Or if we're in the backyard, you know, playing baseball or whatever. My kid used to always tap his bat three times and then pretend like he was spitting and throw the bat up like. Cause he loved watching the Dodgers. So he had these little batting rituals. Like he would see the batters do. So he would do that. And then I would kind of, kind of do tap. Pretend I was tapping the bat as well and pretend I spit as well. And so I'm just kind of like with my body doing what he's doing. Why does that matter? Or if they make a big surprise face, you make a big surprise face, you copy it. Something important happens there where they feel really seen. And I think the piece that's the most powerful part of it is actually we're totally present, right. We're really in it with them. And they see that we're in it with them. But then they see you reflecting what they're doing, which then starts building the circuitry of understanding themselves. And what do facial expressions look like when they go with different emotions? And so it's this tiny little thing. And I always think about how interesting this is. If you look at the data on couples who are dating and couples who are married or have any kind of more intimate connecting relationship, or they're just interested in each other, what you find is you can tell if a couple even on a first date has chemistry and is interested or not by watching how much they mirror each other in their nonverbal stuff. So if one of them kind of leans to the right and puts their hand on their head, on their, their chin, on their hand, the other person will tend to do a similar movement. And so when we're in sync with each other in terms of the non verbal stuff, there's something really intimate about that. That, that is a felt sense of connection that's powerful.
- [52:47]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
So what if just you have a.
- [52:50]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Teenager that doesn't want to do that?
- [52:51]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Right, right, right. What if you have a child who you can't figure out how to engage in play? Which I, I say this, but actually kids are wired to play. So more likely what might be going on is we need a little help.
- [53:11]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Figuring out how to join.
- [53:13]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yes. Get engaged there. So what are some of the strategies.
- [53:18]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yeah.
- [53:19]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
That people can use to kind of get themselves pumped up and ready to engage?
- [53:24]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yeah, one of my favorites, Georgie taught me, which is like, if you don't know what to do, you almost are kind of like, take a. I'm sure there are theater terms for this. I was not a theater person.
- [53:34]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
I was a theater person.
- [53:35]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Okay, what's the thing you do where you kind of step out of character to get a stage direction? Is there a term for that or something? So let's say you're like your kids.
- [53:43]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Like, like you break the fourth wall.
- [53:45]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, so your kids like walk the plank. And you're like, you're like. So then you step. So you're like, oh man, I don't know if I want to go into the water. Shiver me timbers, whatever. And then you're not sure you should actually die. Are you supposed to die? Are you supposed to jump in so you can actually pause and be like, like, am I supposed to walk the plank so you can actually like have stage direction? You're asking for stage direction. I think that's what I'm trying to say. So you're asking for stage so you can kind of break out a character. Ask for stage director, ask for your line and then jump back in. So then your child is kind of the director and they're, they tell you what to do. So you don't have to figure it out. You ask them, you know, what should I do? But I think here's. You know, I always quote Dan Siegel because he was so influential in what I know. I remember sitting in his study group, and we were talking about the idea of emotional intimacy and emotional connection. And really what he said is, if you really look at the underpinnings of what emotional connection really is, it's shared attention. And so you think about, like, let's talk about a kid who's maybe neurodivergent, who maybe plays in a way that maybe seems different from how you've ever played, or they're really interested in sticks. Or like, I had this. There was this adorable kid with autism at the school where I worked, and his thing that he was super into was Noah's Ark. That was what he lived for, Noah's Ark. And so the parent might be like, oh, my gosh, I'm so sick of Noah's Ark. But if we can join in with whatever they're interested on. So all we have to do in that moment, whatever it is, is look at what is my kid's attention focused on, and how do I join that? And you might even have to ask them. So my kids were obsessed with the Dodgers, and so they like to play the hot dog guy, where they would, like, have a bag, like a tote bag they would strap, and they would put, like, things in their pouch, and they would throw, like, the guy that throws the hot dogs into the stand. And then we have to pass money across. You know, people to get. They love that for a bit of time. And so, like, that seems so silly. But I can be like, hey, do you want me to be the guy that gives the money? Or do you. Whatever it is, I just find a way to be like, whatever they're focused on, whatever they're interested in. If you have a kid who's really into sticks, and they are obsessed with sticks, and that's what they want to play all the time, is sticks.
- [55:53]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
You're, like, writing them where they are.
- [55:55]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yeah. Like, show me what. What do you like about this stick? Oh, it's really bumpy. Look how long it is. I mean, you're really just joining in.
- [56:01]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah.
- [56:02]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
With whatever their interest is.
- [56:04]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
But I really love just reminding ourselves, reminding everybody about how important attention is. Shared attention is, because it even starts in infancy.
- [56:14]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yeah.
- [56:14]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
And it's so exciting for. If you even just think about an infant who figures out that when they point to something, that you receive that and that you can respond to that and everybody feels more connected. And then we expand that to play and even all the way to our teenagers. Like, knowing the way to connect is through figuring out what our beloved wants to. Are they considered our beloved or is that like, romantical sounding?
- [56:42]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
It's funny you asked that because this one. Today's my kid's birthday. He's turning 22. And I start. I. I started to text him, like, the minute I met you, I was so in love with you. And I was like, is that a crazy feel cringey about that? So I was like, I was overwhelmed with love for you. I just changed the language a little bit. I don't want to make him feel cringy.
- [56:57]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Right. But just we can, because I don't. I think it's different with adults because when you're trying to connect with adults, if you have absolutely no shared interest, you're probably not going to have a shared. It'll just fizzle away. We don't ever have that option with our kids. And so it's really cool to just let go of the idea that we're going to force them to be interested in what we're interested in and more. How do we get excited about what they're interested in?
- [57:24]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yeah. And as they get older, play shifts. Right? It really does. And so how do you do that with your middle schooler or high schooler or young adult? And it really is back to shared interest. It really is. If your kids into baking, you know, then you start playing baking, you know, and you're baking with them and you're like, oh, should we try this? Or let's make. I remember one time my kid was, like, really into. He was eating eggs, like, all the time, and I was like, oh, there's this food 52 or whatever it's called. They show how to. They show how to fry an egg like, eight different ways. And what's the best? I'm like, let's try it three different ways and see which way we like the best. Right. So it's just. You're just playing, you're just enjoying. You find whatever that's over stupid eggs, you know, And. And sometimes, like, one of the ways I engage with playfulness is say, show me. Show me. Like, we share funny memes with each other. Usually they're dogs eating food too fast or something like that. But just show me the funniest meme you saw this week. Or. And sometimes at dinner, I'll ask, like, what's the funniest thing that happens this week? And my kid. And of course, I won't say names. My kid has a classmate that's always doing just these hilarious things. He's a really creative, funny kid that doesn't have a lot of impulse control sometimes. So hilarious. So it gets funnier. So I'm like, what did he do this week? Tell me about, you know, a story, one of his stories from this week. So it's really about. And here's one other thing. I think this is maybe a good way to kind of be thinking as we move toward closing here is I think it's so important for our kids. And you're so good at this, Eliza, for our kids to see us having fun and being fun.
- [58:53]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
I am so good at that.
- [58:55]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
You are. You're so good at it. You're so fun and funny, and I see you with your girls and. And they're fun and funny with you, you know? And I think our kids need to see us playing with our friends. Right. And play dates look different. You and I are probably gonna have a glass of wine, and our play.
- [59:10]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Date will not be the same.
- [59:11]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
No, it won't be the same. But I think for them to see that playing and being playful is still a huge part of our lives, it makes them want to be with us more. And it's really important to model. And honestly, we need it. When I have parents that are like, I'm so tired. I don't wanna do an effing puppet show to get my kids to put their shoes on. Honestly, the battle that you have is so much more exhausting, typically, than if you say, and this is so dumb. This worked all the time with my kids. Universally. There were these three squirrels, and they did something really bad. And as soon as you get your shoes on and you're in the car, or as soon as you're in bed with all your pajamas and everything, I'll tell you what happened. And I don't know what's going to happen. It's going to be a stupid story because I'm going to make it up and I'm too tired, but it doesn't matter. And I think that the more playful we are, just in general, over time, it's actually easier for us, but it's really important to model. That's a great way to navigate challenges and adversity, too.
- [60:04]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah. I had a sock puppet that was just a sock.
- [60:08]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yeah.
- [60:09]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
There was absolutely no effort.
- [60:10]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
No eyeballs.
- [60:11]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
No eyeballs, no. No mouth, nothing. It was just. I put the sock on. And sadly, if you set the bar Low enough. It was plenty.
- [60:19]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yeah.
- [60:19]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
So.
- [60:20]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yeah.
- [60:20]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
But it is easier.
- [60:21]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Sock puppet still come out with your older girls?
- [60:22]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
No, I'm gonna. I might bring the sock puppet out and see if. If that. I don't know what I would. I'll. I'm. I'm not. I'm actually certain that something will come up in the foreseeable future where I'll be irritated and I could bring the sock puppet out. Yeah, we'll see how that goes. I'm like.
- [60:38]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
You're like. The sock puppet's really angry that you haven't been in touch now that you're away at college. Yeah.
- [60:44]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
I'm so desperate right now. That's funny. That would be perfect.
- [60:47]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yeah.
- [60:48]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Okay. I love you.
- [60:49]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
I love you, too. And you know what? We all need more play in our lives. And the way of play is really, again, a way of being. And you're one of my favorite playmates.
- [60:57]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
We have so much fun.
- [60:58]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
We do. We laugh and laugh and laugh and laugh. And I love, like, the time before last I saw you. I got lost coming to your house time before last, and. And I was like, I'm coming over, but I'm not wearing a bra. I'm wearing sweats. And you were like, good. I'm in my sweats, too. Come over and. I don't think I even had shoes on. I don't know. I just walked into your house and.
- [61:19]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
No, this is much. This is much joy. It's just we get to laugh a lot and enjoy, and I love that our kids are able to witness that. You're so right. I want us to inspire play, but also give ourselves permission to play with our adult friends so that we need more, too. Yeah.
- [61:37]
Dr. Tina Payne Bryson
Yeah. Our kids need much more play with us without us, with their friends, on their own. And we need more play, too. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.