← Raising Good Humans
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- [00:01]
Dr. Susan Magsamen
The following podcast is a Dear Media production.
- [00:10]
Host
Welcome to Raising Good Humans.
- [00:12]
Co-Host
I'm so excited for this episode because.
- [00:16]
Host
Susan Magsamon, the founder and executive director of the International Arts and Mind Lab at the center for Applied Neuro Aesthetics.
- [00:25]
Co-Host
Is so, so cool because basically she's.
- [00:28]
Host
Going to explain why even doodling while you're getting work done can be incredibly beneficial to your brain. Her New York Times best selling book, your Brain on Art, how the Arts Transform Us is so awesome. And I got so many beautiful tips on this episode to incorporate art in our kids day to day lives and our lives. But also part of this episode that I think was so cool is how Susan defines art. It may or may not surprise you to know that the definition of art is so much more broad than we realize and integrating it into our day to day lives is critical.
- [01:07]
Dr. Susan Magsamen
Let me start by laying some sort of groundwork that might be useful. I think the first thing that I want to say is that, you know, as human beings, we are literally born with 100 billion neurons, right? And so those neurons, we come into the world and they're there for us to make these, these neurobiological connections. The only way that we can do that is by bringing the world in through our senses. And so we all have different levels of sensorial capacities based on our physiology or our genetics, but we all have to bring the world in through our senses. It's the only, it's the only way. So when you really look at these profound ways we do that, touch is an extraordinary sense where you have, you know, touch ties into the somatosensory cortex that helps you really interpret and understand what, what you're experiencing. You know, smell is an incredible sensorial sense as its vision and taste and hearing. And so know we, when we do that, we are connecting these 100 billion neurons together through synaptic connection. And those connections create neural pathways. Those neural pathways connect all the different structures and parts of the brain. And how those, those, those neural pathways connect really allows us to do everything, whether that's have emotional experiences, move, think, create, collaborate. It's because of these neural path, these neural pathways that connect within our brain but also connect to our physiology, to our body. So what we know is that these sensorial experiences, the more salient they are, so the more they matter to us, meaning they're either practical or they're emotional, they create stronger, better neural pathways. And it turns out that arts and aesthetics are really some of the most highly salient experiences. And in the last 20 years, because we now are able to get inside of our heads, we can understand the extraordinary way that the arts actually impact us. And one of the things that we know is that these arts and aesthetic experiences actually connect multiple systems simultaneously. And so that's really sort of an extraordinary thing. So our brains are connecting. These arts are connecting our brains, but also our circulatory systems, our immune systems, or engaging the reward system. So there are these sort of extraordinary mechanisms to be able to create significant neuroplasticity, neurobiological changes within our. Within our brains and in our bodies. And that sort of lays the foundation. We also know that each of our brains are so different from each other because. Because of the way we're wired. And so there's a couple of models. One is called the aesthetic triad that explains why each of us are so different. And part of that has to do with culture, with life experiences, with our genetic makeup, with our sensorial systems, and also with the way we interpret what's important to us. And that ties into our default mode network. So when you're thinking about parents and childcare providers and. And the way that the arts can be helpful for young children, but also through the lifespan, the more we're building these strong neural pathways in young children, but also in middle school and beyond, we're actually creating the capacity to meet the world with greater resilience, with greater skills, with greater emotional regulation, with better executive function. And those things are super important for us as we get older. When we are older, the arts then can come in to be helpful in daily practice, to moderate cortisol levels, to look at increasing reward neurotransmitters like dopamine and serotonin, but also just to keep us healthy. And then they can be used for interventions. And so I like to think about this as the arts and aesthetic experience really weave through all of those moments in our lives. And understanding how they can be used for different purposes depending upon what the need is. I say there's an art for that. And what kind of art depends on what types of things we're really trying to address.
- [05:33]
Co-Host
So how can people best connect with art? Because there are people for whom it's a natural fit. Not that. I mean, I think part of what you're saying is this is this collective natural fit for all of us, and we're kind of wired in this way. But for people who don't think of themselves as artistic or as appreciating of the arts, how can we expand that view?
- [05:59]
Dr. Susan Magsamen
One of the pieces of research that I think is really important to share is that you do not have to be good at an art form in order for it to have great impact for you physiologically or psychologically. And, and I think this misnomer that we have to be good at it in order to do it really has left a lot of human potential on the table. Sir Ken Robinson talked about this years ago where he's estimated that by the time we're in third grade or eight years old, someone has told us we're not good at it, or we've gotten the message that we're not good at making art. And so we stop. And yet it's the very physiological evolutionary skills that we need to be wholly healthy. And well, you know, we've been optimizing for productivity really since the Industrial Revolution. And I think what we have thought is that the arts are nice to have. They're a luxury, not a have to have. And so we set up this paradigm that we wait to do the arts or we have to afford to do the arts. You know, indigenous cultures, and there are still 5,000 indigenous cultures, cultures around the world really didn't have a word and still don't have a word for art that we've kind of created this silo of art as this thing. But it was a way of living, it is a way of living. So it's how you move through the world and how you use all of these sensorial experiences to create community, to share story, to use visual art to interpret or represent something. You think about symbol and metaphor. And so in some ways we can definitely take a page from these ancient cultures that really understood the value of ritual and tradition and creative self expression for individual knowledge and health and physical well being, but also for collective knowledge and community building.
- [07:56]
Host
Now for a quick break so I can tell you about my sponsors.
- [07:59]
Sponsor Representative
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- [10:05]
Host
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- [10:08]
Sponsor Representative
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- [10:11]
Host
And I don't know, when I am.
- [10:13]
Sponsor Representative
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- [11:03]
Co-Host
Two separate things come to mind. One are nurturing kids and adult, because this is true for adults too, but nurturing younger minds through the arts, if that's an inclination. And the other is helping young people find space and time and inclination toward the arts that we might have, you know, decided wasn't important for them or that they didn't click with. I think that there's a big part of that has to do with what you said, which is, oh, you're not good at that, let's put you over here and you'll do something else or it's not productive seeming or whatever the reasons are. So I'm curious, like how do we harness the inclination of art? Or let Go of our holding on when and how we're doing it. And this is thinking about young people. But then there's also. What about those young people who are just not interested or seeming that not interested? How do we connect those dots?
- [12:01]
Dr. Susan Magsamen
So I think what I like to think about is starting with where you are. And so we all are involved in making or beholding art, whether we're aware of it or not. We make a meal. We often listen to music. We're not conscious all the time of the things that we're already doing that we're engaged in an art. So we have something called the aesthetic mindset in the book that is four things. And this sort of lays the table for that. The first is having more of a curious mind or a beginner's mind and just being able to be open to what's around. The second is playful exploration. So messing around with stuff without judgment, without criticizing what you're doing, without saying this is good or bad, but really this idea of play, and play is about not having an end result, but really being able to explore and discover. And it turns out that when you really examine your own behavior, oftentimes we don't let ourselves play. And the third is more of a sensorial awareness. What are you feeling like, what are you feeling right now? What kind of light is hitting you? What's the temperature? What are you smelling? Being aware of what is actually in your sensorial world and feeling that we're often in our heads, not in our bodies, and just. Just tying into some of that. And then the last is kind of thinking and doing more about what are you making and what are you beholding. And some of these things can be as simple as doodling or coloring or simple drawing. Singing in the car to the radio, you know, singing in the shower. My husband and I dance every Friday night at home in our living room because it's a lot of fun and, you know, thinking about things that offer that. You know, I consider things like gardening an art form. What are the things that you do that already have that element? If it's true that there are so many things that have this opportunity for you to express yourself, where are you already doing that? And I think what you'll see is that when you start to soften the barriers between what is and isn't art journaling, expressive writing is an amazing way that people can really begin to share how they're feeling and be able to reflect on that and have an interpretation. There's a researcher named James Pennebaker who's done a lot of work with expressive writing. What he's been able to show is that when you express something in writing that you've been holding, you don't need to share it with others, but you express it. He's been able to show that your cognitive load decreases and cortisol decreases. And so you have more capacity to be able to do other things because you've literally been able to get that out of your system. And I think there's things like that that are so simple to do, and in some ways we do them, but we don't really think about what the value of those things are. There's a huge upsurge right now with college students in knitting circles and doing hand work to reduce strength. I think that's pretty amazing. We're seeing firefighters and first responders doing work. Doodling is a big thing, but doing visual arts, welding, woodworking to really confront things like PTSD and ongoing trauma. There's so many ways to think about low tech, high touch arts that help to reduce cortisol and kind of induce a form of homeostasis that helps us just feel. Feel more present.
- [15:34]
Co-Host
It's funny, as you were describing it, I was thinking even meditation is a form of art. Because you're paying attention, you have that curiosity. You are using your senses theoretically, I guess, or trying to sort of feel what's happening to you in your body and what's going on around you. I was wondering like how many things are. Of course I'm trying to categorize it, but it's more like expanding, not, not categorizing because it's allowing some kind of openness to realize that there is more art than we think we're experiencing in a day to day life.
- [16:17]
Dr. Susan Magsamen
Yeah. And how we're. And how we're feeling it. I think we, you know, we think about something as simple as we talk about arts and aesthetic experiences. So even if you start at the beginning of your day, you know, what are you waking up to in terms of the light, the texture of the blankets, when you get into the shower and that warm water starts to touch all of those touch receptors. And let's just say you start to hum, you start to engage your parasympathetic nervous system. The vagus nerve is engaged. You literally feel better. You know, your body feels calmer, you feel better. And these small moments add up to making your day. And so how do you navigate sort of these new appreciations? I think about it as almost making the invisible visible. For being aware of these Sensorial experiences. And you know, I was mentioning doodling and coloring earlier. There's some really great work around doodling that shows that doodlers pay attention better, they have more focus, they're able to recall and retain information better. So for all of us who were told in school, stop doodling, stop coughing, stop playing around, it turns out that doodling is actually a very good skill. Visual arts are another really interesting example. And this again, you don't have to be good at it, but drawing and understanding sort of how what you're creating could be drawing, it could be collage making. I'm a collaboration helps you to really create symbol and metaphor and help you understand sort of what you're feeling or what con what content you're really trying to process. And that skill transfers into other areas of your life. And transfer is sort of the holy grail of learning. And so if you can be working in one domain and learning how to create a problem, solve and understand sort of kind of substrate structure and then move that into other areas of your life, that's hugely important. And that's particularly great for young children to be able to build those resources and those capacities to be able to, to adapt, to be able to switch, to be able to move content from one area, want skills from one area of their life to another.
- [18:29]
Host
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- [21:36]
Co-Host
A r a.com so the implications for education are obviously so enormous. But since we can't control what's happening necessarily in our school day, what can we think about for in terms of like family rituals and unique experiences for our kids that are just opening up the opportunities? Is it leaving a journal out? Is it you know, just pausing and putting on some music and having everybody dance? Is it just not stopping kids from Their natural inclination to do things like doodle while they were maybe supposed to be doing something else for a moment. Is it about taking the time and experiments, exposing, or is it. Is there something more formal that has to happen?
- [22:23]
Dr. Susan Magsamen
No, I think that's exactly right. I think starting from where you are and creating these enriched environments where families feel like there's an opportunity to feel safe and safety is not just the absence of threat. Safety is a space, a comfortable space where you feel like you can share. Share yourself. Right? So if you're gonna. If you're gonna feel like you're gonna be criticized or you're gonna be made fun of, you're most likely not gonna express yourself, because that's too dangerous. But families, you know, home is a sanctuary. Home is a place for discovery, for renewal, for retreat. You know, I always think of a home as having multiple chambers for different emotional needs, different. Different opportunities. So. So thinking of your home as a place where your family can grow and learn and collaborate and renew shifts the aperture enough that you can sort of begin to think about that. So for sure, being able to model that, I find modeling to be probably the most effective way that we learn. And so modeling that. So for me as a mom, you know, putting my technology aside and. And focusing on being present with the people that I'm with when I'm with them, and setting up some of those sort of. Those sort of conditions for coming together rituals are so important. And those routines around cooking together, thinking about different ingredients, thinking about the smells and texture and tastes of things, you know, how you create a space, you know, and these are really sort of, you know, very utilitarian things. But are you sitting at a round table? Are you sitting at a square table? You know, do you use cloth napkins? Do you use paper napkins? Like, what are those real sensorial things that are happening? Do you light a candle at dinner? Do you. How do you create that environment for collaboration and communication and coming together? Are there, you know, materials where, you know, things that you can do together? Putting a photo album together. I mentioned dancing during the pandemic. We saw that families did a lot more dancing, which I think is really interesting. Cause it's physiological. It's physical, right? You're getting a lot of this energy out, but it's also total reward, and it's storytelling. And so dance is an amazing way. Being able to share different musical preferences with each other helps to share what is going on without asking somebody, hey, what's going on? I think there's all those small Ways that start to add up to creating a culture of in a family. You know, we talk about art creates culture, culture creates community and community creates humanity. And so that starts with you individually and then it starts with your family and then your community. So I think it doesn't have to be these big things. And it's not about over scheduling dance classes or music classes.
- [25:22]
Co-Host
You've read my mind.
- [25:24]
Dr. Susan Magsamen
It's not about that. You know, and I think it's really important that we don't confuse that with this innate ability to express ourselves.
- [25:35]
Co-Host
You read my mind because I was thinking about why did I stop doing certain things that would be considered artistic expression. When I was younger and I was a dancer and I was really, really obsessed and I was obsessed with it. Not just the dancing part of it, but the stories around it and the art around it and everything. It was my whole world. And then I had an injury and I had to stop and I was so devastated. And my decision was that if I wasn't going to be able to be really highly skilled, I wasn't gonna do it anymore. So I just stopped, never did it again. And I think that that is, that was not because my parents were pushing me and it wasn't because of anything outside that I know of. I'm sure there were messages that I got, but it made me think that was long ago and now in the much more common culture of high achieving, pressure, pressure, pressure. And like become an expert by 13. I'm so curious, like how do we allow ourselves to think of things as valuable for the sake of the experience of it instead of to what end? Like in my mind I had an end game of being a dancer. And then once that was off the table I was like, this does not serve me anymore. And I won't do it just for enjoyment purposes because I won't be good enough. And I'm exposing so much crazy. But that was my 16 year old mindset of just like forget it, what's the point? And I see today with a lot of families feeling like they have to get their kids have to be really good at whatever it is that they're doing or they should move on to another thing. And so they specialize really early. And it's such a, it's like a great Trojan horse into getting everyone to let go of that and think about just the experience of this art and aesthetic mindset. But the Trojan horse to me is to suggest that it actually is so beneficial for your mental health and for your cognitive flourishing and for so your Relationships and so many different things. But it feels like you need that in order to sell the idea of stepping back and just being a human being who's experiencing artistic expression.
- [28:12]
Dr. Susan Magsamen
The research is really helpful. And when I say research, you know, we're looking at cognitive neuroscience. We're looking at neuroscience, basic science, psychology, psychiatry, public health, information, epidemiology. And the story that's emerging is that it's a yes. And you know, people who engage in the arts have lower mental distress, better mental functioning and improved quality of life. I want that no matter what I'm doing, right. We know that moms that have postpartum depression are using singing and humming feel better, faster. You know, sound vibration is actually very effective in moving the body to homeostasis and out of the sort of fight and flight freeze reaction that so many of us are sort of in and out of all the time. There's a lot of really great work around chronic pain and dance, as it turns out, and even virtual reality. And so I think what we're finding is that our evolutionary imperative of how the arts make us more human and more amplify our potential is increasingly becoming irrefutable. And so what we've done to ourselves in saying if you're not good at dancing, you should stop dancing, has left so much capacity for managing all the areas of our lives outside of our realm of tools to use. And so I meet with a lot of young people in college these days and I always go around the room and I say, what did you, you know, what are your interests? And they'll say engineering and painting or dancing and psychology or there's always an art. And I think that's really healthy because you don't have to be one thing, right? And I think, you know, I'm seeing CVS now where it's like, I'm a neuroscientist, dancer, you know, bike rider. A lot of these kids that are moving into these professions are demanding that there's more to life than just the career and they need it for their mental health. When you look at, you know, how and their physical well being and their sense of community. And so in medicine, you know, there's a huge shift to moving around, humanizing medicine. You know, kids that are coming into medical school right now don't have other interests because they've been totally about grades, getting into the best medical school, getting into the, you know, getting through all of the prereqs and they're incredibly stressed. They don't have an appetite for wonder. They have no tolerance for ambiguity. They don't have great observational skills because they're myopic on getting into the medical school. So if you're treating people who are very complex, you want capacity for ambiguity, you want great observational skills, you want capacity for wonder to think about. What else could it be? Not just, oh, you're this symptom or you're this, you are the disease. And so I think professions are starting to see that this narrowing is actually not good for the professions. And in business we're seeing that too, where it's collaboration and creativity and the ability to have interdisciplinary solutions that are really where the workforce is going. Yet we're not allowing that. We're not bringing that into this K12 or even college experience experience because we're streamlining streamlining. So there's some really big societal disconnects that I think are important to understand. But when you come full circle back to how do we learn, how do we grow, how do we really become the most whole human beings? Arts and aesthetics are just essential as sleep, nutrition, exercise. And I think that's where this field is really moving.
- [32:03]
Host
Now for a quick break so I can tell you about my sponsors. This episode is brought to you in part by Saks Fifth Avenue. Here's the great thing about Saks Fifth Avenue, you can just get everything on Saks.com so this website is pretty much every one of your favorite shopping brands. If you need to get a beautiful high end candle, go to saks.com bring it to someone's house as a hostess gift, put it in your bathroom for a nice cozy night of taking a bath. Does that sound absolutely ridiculous? If you have young children, possibly. And get yourself a great outfit for spring break. If you are heading on spring break, buy something for you. Get a pair of sunglasses. I just got a pair of Chloe sunglasses. I love them, I need them and I'm going to wear them on my spring break vacation. But also, it's about time to shed the winter wardrobe and start thinking about spring. I know not everyone's in California and you're probably just starting to dream of getting rid of the layers and getting a nice light spring coat. Or you know, it's the end of scarves and hats. Maybe you want to get a little light sweater, celebrate the new season with some color. If you are like me and you love shopping but you don't actually want to go to the store, this is the dream. Go to Saks.com for inspiring ways to upgrade your personal style. Every day. ShopSacks.com @Great Wolf Lodge, you can take your entire family on unforgettable adventures. That's just a world of fun under one roof. And there's a Great Wolf Lodge all across North America, so most families are within just a few hours drive to the lodge. So you can pack and then splash away at an indoor water park. No two lodges are the same. You could just bop around every vacation and visit a different lodge. And the lodge also has high flying rope corps horses, miniature golf, climbing walls, mini bowling, virtual reality rooms, a giant arcade. There's an adventure waiting for your entire family. You couldn't get it all done in one day, so you should just like do a little weekend visit. Your kids are going to have the best time. You will be exhausted. There's also rooms that are theme suites, so. So they have like special bunk bed sleeping areas just for kids. So then you can relax and unwind after a long day without also cramming into one room, one bed kind of situation. And again, it's just a short drive away. So bring your pack together and wolf out. Learn more@greatwolf.com greatwolf.com book now and strengthen your pack at greatwolf Lodge. Com Book now and strengthen your pack at Great Wolf Lodge. God, it's so funny all of a.
- [35:12]
Co-Host
Sudden because I've never really sat down and thought about my relationship with art and aesthetics. Though I bend in that direction more than certain other things, that's what I find more appealing. But in terms of doing versus being the observer, I'm just less inclined. And I was thinking about how my in college I was an art history major and one of the the only required studio art class I had to take was just like Intro to Studio Art. And I got my worst grade, which already threw me because I was like, wait a second, how am I getting a terrible grade in studio art? And the teacher, my professor, said that my project lacked creativity and vision. And he was really just like disappointed. And I said, is that because I'm a terrible artist? Because I already know that I've never really. I'm not a visual artist. And he said, no, it was the lack of creativity and I didn't understand him. But as you're talking about it now, I'm starting to sort of 30 years later get what he was saying, even though I still resent that. I never with drug. I wouldn't even doodle after that. And I think that that's something we have to always think about. Like what, what kinds of labels are we putting on Young People in areas that are so personal that they could end up stopping whole areas of growth. So that was certainly the end of my doodling career. So between that and stopping dancing, you know, you still have to keep stretching and finding other things as your creative outlet.
- [36:52]
Host
But I'm wondering, I guess how do.
- [36:55]
Co-Host
We distinguish creativity and art?
- [36:57]
Dr. Susan Magsamen
Yeah, that's an interesting question. Is everything creative, artistic? I would say yes. I think of myself as someone who makes art as opposed to an artist. Right. And I think people that are legitimately artists, you know, they're professional artists, they make their career making art. They, they're, you know, that, that's their job. The designers, architects, painters who dance, professional dancers. But I make art. And I, I, I, I, I, I dance, I doodle, I, I collage, I write poetry, I, I make art. And because that's how I express myself, you know, I, I, that's, and I think when you, and, and creating is really simply your ability. You know, creativity is defined as having ideas, new ideas with, with a certain set of ingredients that you continue to evolve, how you might use something and the agility of that. And so, you know, I think that requires risk, it requires vulnerability, it, it requires you to, to suspend judgment. And so, you know, so when someone says you're not creative, I think that's, we're all creative, we're all creating all the time. But I think it's where you, you allow yourself to do that is really, really important. And I love that you're still sort of understanding what somebody said to you a while back and trying to sort of go, oh, now you know, I left that behind because I was, you know, judging myself. And you've got a lot of societal impact that's actually helping you move towards those. I think it's really important to like embrace the things you love without having to define your competency. And I'm a beholder. I love going and perspective taking and having, being moved by other people's stories and other people's creative self expression that are great, you know, that are really amazing musicians. So it's not, I don't think you have to be one or the other. And in fact like even now you and I are in an improv or in an improv. I don't know what you're going to say. You don't know what I'm going to say. I'm learning from you, you're learning from me. You're a different person when you hang up. I'm a different person when I hang up because we had this experience. And we're in it. We're in it. And I think the arts, I think because we have not had the science to really be able to understand some of these neurobiological truths about this role, we sort of anecdotally said, oh, you know, I feel different, or, you know, and artists have always been there, They've always known the, the value of the arts. And we've marginalized that. You know, we've marginalized it for productivity, we've marginalized it because of resources. But if you look at the ROI on, on the arts for singing and Alzheimer's, there's a 3 to 1 return on investment. If you look at quality of life for Parkinson's patients who are dancing for their lives and their family members lives, it's exponential. And so whether we're looking at education, healthcare, mental health, all of the different areas where we show up, if we're fully embodied, and I think a lot of times we're not, the shift in our culture I think is really exponential.
- [40:24]
Co-Host
I loved that you said you're a beholder, because I always say I'm an audience member, but I'm going to change it to beholder because that feels so much more active and it feels so incredibly active as a beholder. Like whenever I'm experiencing someone else's art, I am so in and I love it so much. But I thought it was this passive experience and I have not put it in the category of my brain on art because I think, well, I'm just sitting here, or I'm just moving to this sound, or I'm just laughing to these performers. But actually, of course, that's such an active experience.
- [41:13]
Dr. Susan Magsamen
You're changing. You're, you know, you're totally. I mean, audience seems more transactional to me too.
- [41:18]
Co-Host
You're so right.
- [41:19]
Dr. Susan Magsamen
I'm so glad you said it. Yeah, you're totally like vessel and, and what's coming in vibrate from a vibration point of view from the audience members with you, the participants, you know, you all have. Everybody coming into a space have made a commitment to leave the world outside and to be moved. And if you come in with that intention, you may be moved and not like it. Right. You may be moved to sadness, which is also a really important thing, or to sad or to despair or to touching into. I went and saw dear Evan Hansen years ago, and I remember thinking I cried the entire time I went to the ladies room. Everyone was crying. And we also connected at a very human level around how fragile our children in this case how fragile our children are and how they try so hard to fit in. And, I mean, but we saw it through the lens of a play, of a musical. So the intergenerational weaving of that story was so amazing, but it wasn't fun, it wasn't entertaining. It was so powerful. And at the same time, people left come in a tune. Right. So singing.
- [42:32]
Host
Totally.
- [42:33]
Dr. Susan Magsamen
Right.
- [42:34]
Co-Host
David Burns, that's a great example.
- [42:36]
Dr. Susan Magsamen
Yeah.
- [42:37]
Co-Host
I wanted to get your thoughts on technology and art. Like, is there. Is there room for technology and art in all of this art and aesthetic work?
- [42:51]
Dr. Susan Magsamen
I would say resounding, yes. You know, technology needs to be in service, service of humanity. And I think that the cautionary tales, when it's not, are chilling, but I think technology is actually merging to give us a lot of really extraordinary things around immersive experiences. When you think about virtual reality or even these spaces where you literally are walking into a painting and you're in that experience, you know, these sorts of stimulations of our sensory systems, you know, and researchers now are saying they don't think we have five senses. We probably have more like 50 senses. So as we're discovering more about human physiology, I think the technology is really an opportunity to expand our humanity, and I think we have to use it in that way. Just one simple example of that is during COVID just the fact that we had zoom and we could conn connect millions of people all over the world to dance together who had Parkinson's is an amazing use of technology. I've seen AI being used in really interesting ways to think about people that are singing and diagnosed and being able to look at their voice patterns and understanding whether they have some kind of a disease, early state of a disease, or something that can be addressed early on. I think even the ChatGPT is also really, for some people, they're using it. I know writers that are using it as kind of a way to build drafts and to think about how to just work in kind of collaboration with technology. So I think we've always had technology. Right. New technologies, but that doesn't mean that we're not being asked to be more ourselves, more creative, more connected. I think it's this connectivity also in the creativity that we need to be working on. And I think that technology can help to provide some of that as well.
- [44:55]
Co-Host
I love this all, all of this.
- [44:58]
Dr. Susan Magsamen
It's so cool. I have to say, even with flourishing. My husband and I were talking about this last night. We don't want to just survive. We want to flourish. And what are those conditions for flourishing and they're. They are around awe enriched environments, creativity, ritual, novelty and surprise. When you said you love in a conversation where you feel more alive, like how many of us say that? Like, I feel more alive. I feel. And that shifts everything, right? When you feel like you are engaged and there's purpose and there's meaning, you come together, you. You do more things. You know, you're not just transacting, you're transforming. And I think that's what, that's the best of us and that's what we should be going for.
- [45:49]
Co-Host
This was so wonderful and interesting as a. As a beginner conversation about it.
- [45:55]
Dr. Susan Magsamen
Well, thank you so much. And I actually think you should dance. I think you should go home tonight and you should put something on and you should dance and just tell me how it feels. I think you might call cry.
- [46:24]
Co-Host
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