← The Kirsh Connection
The Kirsh Connection
The Current Real Estate Lending Market with Jerry Dunn, Co-Founder of A10 Capital
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to Real Talk Real Estate discussions with Andrew Kirsch. In each episode, Andrew interviews industry leaders. We'll hear their real time opinions on today's market, their background and unique career highlights and guidance for newcomers to the industry. You can find this show at www.sklarkirsch.com and on YouTube, LinkedIn, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts and more. Now here's the host of Real Talk, Andrew Kirsch.
- [00:40]
B
Episode 7 of Real Talk. Well, it's the holiday season. I want to wish everyone a happy Hanukkah, Merry Christmas, a happy Kwanzaa, and a Happy New Year. It's the end of an interesting year of 2022. 1H22 being some of the most active months in the real estate industry to stopping on a dime and becoming some of the most turbulent months in our industry that we have seen in a while. Our thoughts in 2023, that volume will pick up. The Fed will likely have slowed or stopped raising interest rates and price discovery across certain asset classes will be found in today's episode. I have Jerry Dunn, the CEO of A10 Capital, a debt fund based in Boise. I thought it would be apropos to have Jerry on to end the 2002 calendar year from a lender's perspective to talk about the lending market, how he's perceiving risk, the deals that he wants to be lending on, and his vision and predictions for 2023 are quite interesting. I know you'll enjoy my conversation with Jerry. Hello. Welcome to another edition of Real Talk. It is my honor to have Jerry Dunn, the co founder and president of A10 Capital, here with us. Jerry, thank you so much for joining.
- [02:15]
C
Thanks. We appreciate you inviting us on the show and look forward to chatting with you.
- [02:20]
B
Absolutely. So where does this podcast find you?
- [02:24]
C
So a 10 is a nationwide lender, but we are headquartered and based in Boise, Idaho. The other, the other financial capital world, as we like to call it.
- [02:34]
B
And so if, if Boise is the other, what do you consider the, the initial, I guess.
- [02:41]
C
Well, I guess it'll be New York, but LA is a pretty close second. Yeah.
- [02:44]
B
So how did you guys decide to. To be based in Boise?
- [02:50]
C
It's kind of a long story. I actually started my career as an investment banker on Wall street and had the fortune. I was fortunate enough to hook up with some guys that had actually moved from LA to Boise back in the 90s and set up a specialty finance company that came in as a early employee. But the reason they came to Boise was they had family here and they also had an experience where one of the family members had relocated their manufacturing business to Boise and achieved significant economies of scale. So they set up the first finance company in Boise. I was employee number one. It was a very successful company as a franchise finance company. And after that was sold, I split off with them and started an equipment finance business. Had a success, successful exit. So sold that business to PNC bank, took a few years off and then started a 10 capital sort of right before the great financial crisis in 2007 in anticipation of a hiccup of the market. Can't say we were smart enough to predict gfc, but we had dry powder and it really helped us kind of get into the market and get going.
- [04:00]
B
And so what is A ten capital's, you know, what's the sweet spot of the type of capital that you provide both in terms of size and type of borrower and type of real estate to the extent that people haven't heard of a 10?
- [04:17]
C
Yeah, I think most people know us as a bridge lender. That's kind of how we got started. And so as a bridge lender, what we focus on are transitional properties that are in some state of transition, typically lease up. So you know, we finance properties with as little as no occupancy. So 100% vacant all the way up to, you know, 80, 85%. But we typically provide a bridge loan three years to help it go from point A to point B. Our loan sizes today are 5 to 50 million, which is kind of a middle market type size. And then a few years ago we just because of demand from our broker base and borrower base, we actually bolted on a long term fixed rate product that finances stabilized properties, properties that are 90, 95% occupied, stable cash flows. And we'll put those to bed with anywhere from a 7 to 15 year fixed rate loan. That product. We sort of tried to address a common grievance with borrowers you may have experienced as a lawyer, but we tried to address all the things that borrowers don't like about cmbs. Namely, you know, we don't sell the loans off, we underwrite, we close loans in house and we, and most importantly, we service loans in house. So long story short, we do five to $50 million bridge and permanent loans today.
- [05:41]
B
And so what I know today and I definitely want to get into, and one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on, on this podcast, this is very timely is, you know, the state of the market from a, from a lender's perspective, the liquidity or Lack thereof, at least in a borrower's mind of the market.
- [05:58]
C
But.
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B
But in a normal year, maybe even as recent as 2021, how much did you put out in terms of the bridge of the bridge product? And how much did you put out of the permanent.
- [06:12]
C
Yeah, that's a great question. So last year we did roughly about a billion dollars in total volume and it was split roughly 60% bridge, 40% permanent.
- [06:24]
B
Okay.
- [06:24]
C
This year we were sort of on pace to exceed that until kind of the summer when the market sort of just stopped. And I say the market meaning, you know, in our bridge product in particular, we typically finance purchase deals. And as you may have experienced in your own practice, just because of the rapid rise in rates, a lot of the, A lot of the purchase deals have been stalled out.
- [06:45]
B
Sure. How. I mean, before the last couple months, how would you typically price your bridge debt? And were they typically floating? Floating product where borrowers would buy a cap?
- [07:00]
C
That's a great question. So our pricing is. It's hard to give you a one size fits all answer. The answer is it really depends. We look at certainly loan size. It takes the same amount of resources to close a $5 million loan as a $40 million loan. So on a $40 million loan, that's going to have economies of scale and therefore pricing. We obviously look at leverage. Leverage, you know, can go as high as 75%. Our average is probably in the mid-60s. Sometimes borrowers put more of their equity up front. So I'd say pre volatility, we were, I think, fairly competitive with bridge lenders. We were, you know, probably in the high threes for a larger loan. You know, strong sponsorship, good property, and probably went up to the low fives on smaller deals. That's now changed with the volatility and just cost of capital for pretty much anyone has gone up.
- [07:59]
B
So let's talk about the market in general. I mean, obviously, like you even alluded to, I mean, it's no secret interest rates have gone up significantly, I would say more so or faster than anyone anticipated. And it really has put. Put a break on, on the amount of volume that we are seeing. Usually the fourth quarter is our busiest quarter. It'll probably be our slow. Maybe third quarter is going to be our slowest quarter. But certainly the second half of this year is much slower than the first half. Not to say that if we kept the pace of 2021 or the first half of 2022, that we would all be, you know, in our graves, because I don't think anyone was going to be able to keep that pace for much longer. But how are you viewing the market today? And yeah, I, I guess this is a bit of a direct question and I know you have the capital, but are you, are you actively originating loans today? Are you waiting to see how the market gets stability maybe in Q1 or Q2 next year?
- [09:09]
C
Yeah, that's a really good question. Historically, you know, a lot of questions in there and I'll just kind of touch on a few things. I'd say historically, just like you, our fourth quarter has always been the busiest. I think one year we might have done 40% of our volume in December. You know, it slammed not the case this year. That being said, just in the last week we have, we have seen a spike up or an increase in kind of loan requests coming in. Not at the pace that we saw like last year, the year before, but certainly there's a few deals to be done that need to get done by year end that have kind of made it our way. So that's, I guess, encouraging.
- [09:47]
B
So, and I know by the time this podcast gets aired, we're going to be close to year end. But you know, being where we are toward the, you know, just before Thanksgiving, what's the pacing between time a loan request comes to you and, and your ability to close?
- [10:06]
C
Yep, I would say we generally can close as fast as our borrowers can. You know, the biggest kind of hold up typically in our process is just getting information in and, you know, super organized borrowers with lawyers like yourself who are quick and reasonable. We can get through deals pretty quick. I'd say, you know, 30 to 45 days. You know, six months ago, a big holdup was appraisals. That's now starting to change as transaction volume is slowed down for them as well. But I think one of our advantages is speed to delivery and getting things done when they need to get done.
- [10:46]
B
So going back, I know I sort of took us off track of finding out your pacing and timing for closing, but just your overall thoughts on the market and what A10 capital's view is in terms of putting money out today. Because there aren't a lot of, I mean, there are lenders and equity providers who say they're in, in business right now, but they're really not. They're just waiting.
- [11:14]
C
Yep. Yeah, we're, we've kind of constructed our balance sheet really thanks to the beginnings. We started the business during the great financial crisis and kind of construct our, our lending model. We actually flourish when, at times when the market Typically pulls back. And that's for a couple reasons. Number one, you know, we're not a bank, but unlike a lot of our competitors, which are debt funds and mortgage REITs, a lot of those groups utilize, we call repo facilities to finance their loan book. Works really good when the market's functioning, but when the market stalls out, oftentimes those repo facilities come with margin calls on the facilities. And so a lot of those lenders get put out of business sometimes volatility, we don't have any such type facilities. So during COVID as an example, a lot of our competitors got put on the sideline for, you know, a few months, up to a year from what I heard. And we were actively lending during that period of time. Same here. So we are actively lending on bridge. So that's one part of our business. The other part of our business, which is the fixed rate permanent loan I mentioned, we have a effectively a two prong funding model for the business we have on balance sheet primarily for bridge. And then for our fixed rate product, we actually have set up deliberately we call them SMAs or separately managed accounts. Where we've gone out, one of our shareholders is Schroeders, which is a publicly traded investment manager out of London. With their help, we've gone out and set up separately managed account agreements with a number of different permanent capital sources, primarily life companies that effectively rent, you know, our operations. So the groups that we are partnered with, we're actively deploying that capital right now. Or you know, with Schroeders we have the ability to go out and find and underwrite loans that fit a certain criteria. So we have, you know, a handful of bridge loans in process right now and a couple permanent loans in process. I would say the for us, what we've noticed is obviously transaction volume has slowed down. For the deals that are getting done. We have seen our borrowers negotiate pretty meaningful price concessions kind of post getting the deal under contract. And many of the sellers are accepting of those price concessions or price reductions. So those are going through. And then the other component of our business that we're doing is refinances. Obviously no one's really doing a rate and term refinance today because rates have gone up so much. But a handful of deals that were in process working on closing our maturity maturing loans. So we have one deal in particular, newly built office and it's got a construction loan that's maturing at the end of the year. We've had a recent flurry of loans, loan requests of Command were it's maturing CMBS loans. You know, if you think about the market, 2013 was kind of when CMBS kind of restarted. And so we're seeing some of those deals starting to come off from those 10 year, you know, kind of terms.
- [14:24]
B
Sure. So how has your underwriting and terms changed? Obviously rates are higher, we all know that. But can you speak a little about what your leverage looks like today versus six months ago, what the type of borrower looks like, the geographical region, just the, the tendencies, the changes that, that you are consciously, that you have consciously made in today's market.
- [14:56]
C
Yep. Yeah, I'd say in today's market it's, you know, a lot of people it's easy to talk about, you know, what's your loan to value, what's your loan to cost ratio that still exists. But for us both on bridge and permit, it feels like it's, it's pivoting more to looking at cash flows and really getting focused in on that and looking at coverage ratios and sort of a higher rate interest rate environment. So the constraining factor on proceeds today because of higher rates is typically going to be cash flow more so than an appraised type value. That's what we kind of see. You know, specifically like many lenders were extremely selective on office. Some lenders have redlined it as I understand it. I know a lot of the capital sources have, you know, sort of stayed away from office. We're selective in there who are just, you know, very picky. We look at certain sub markets. We want to make sure that there's good economics in the leases that are being signed multifamily and they'll, you know, last two to three years. The game there was a business plan with, you know, significant rent growth, 20, 30, 40% often was what borrowers were planning and actually executing on. And so that's kind of changed now. We're starting to see signs where, you know, rent, rent growth is now in multifamily in some markets is moderating a bit. So on a sort of a bridge loan on multifamily, know we have to get super deliberate and super comfortable with, you know, rent prompts. Otherwise we're going to, you know, sort of look at in place cash flows and put a little bit more weighting on that today than maybe we would have two years ago.
- [16:39]
B
And what about it's still a non recourse product? I assume it is.
- [16:45]
C
Yep. Okay, it is non recourse.
- [16:47]
B
Has any other changes in terms of underwriting? I assume you're not doing any construction loans, but do you provide, you know, future advances for improvements that a borrower is undertaking to remodel a multi family asset?
- [17:06]
C
Yep. Yep. The answer is yeah. So on our bridge loans, almost always, they almost always come with a capex facility with some sort of renovation plan like you know, be multifamily office retail where a facade is getting changed, a lot is getting changed out. And then on more commercial product, we'll provide a future facility for lease up cost where we'll kind of go shoulder to shoulder with the borrower fund. For every dollar spent on a TILC, we'll put in 65 cents and the borrower bring in 35 cents.
- [17:39]
B
Typically in terms of the loans that you originated two, three years ago or maybe even four years ago when they're in a in extension or to say it otherwise, there's a pending maturity date on your loans in the next three, six, nine months. What is your view as to extending those loans knowing that the borrower has more or fewer options to refinance you out?
- [18:16]
C
Yeah, that's a good question. So we, it's really case by case. You know, if a borrower has executed on their plan, you know, they're, they're in check with their business plan, they're achieving the rents that, that they underwrote, we underwrote. You know, we'd be happy to extend the loan. It's economically to our benefit to do so because our primary sort of profit model is net interest margin over the life of loans. So the loans on the books longer better to the extent a borrower has, you know, stubbed their toe on the business plan for whatever reason. You know, occupancy might be flat, rents may be lower than expected. We certainly could consider an extension. We typically want to see that borrower sort of recommit to that asset to make sure that they're in it to win it, to use a sports term. And that gives us comfort to move forward. Yeah.
- [19:09]
B
How, how much of your day or a ten capital's day are dealing with your current loans with pending maturity dates and dealing with those issues versus originating new debt.
- [19:23]
C
Yep. So for me personally, I focus most of my time on the front end supporting our origination team, helping them structure deals, meeting with clients. We have a completely separate servicing and asset management team that deals with the existing loan book. We're a rated servicer. We service, we service our entire loan book. We also have been, we also service loans for some other big institutional clients, including the permanent loans. I mentioned before that team's fairly busy managing that loan book. You know, we collect financials, we reevaluate, re, re. We risk rate each loan every six months. So it does take time and we do have a full team that stays on top of that. But to the extent that you know we have a some friction on a situation and you know the relationship will get brought into it. So if I know the borrower or originators know, we'll work, try to work to come up with a solution that works for everyone. Yeah.
- [20:22]
B
So going back to 2007 when you, when you started a 10 capital, what was the, the impetus like what was the reasoning? What were you seeing Chip like little cracks in the market and there was less liquidity and this was a good time to, to open up a debt fund or, or, or what was it? Because back then there were very few debt funds in 07 compared to where we sit now in, in 15 years later.
- [20:53]
C
Yeah, that's a great question. So. So as I mentioned before, I've been in specialty finance my whole career. Different asset classes and what we typically have, kind of our approach to starting finance companies is we typically like to find either out of favor asset classes or periods of time of disruption. So the previous company I started started in 1998. There was the Russian debt crisis at that point. The one prior to that was started in the early 90s during the RTC, you know, sort of crisis. So what kind of started day 10 was I was fortunate enough to sell my last business to PNC bank, spent a few months there transitioning to them. But then I got recruited by the chairman of a big California bank to be his right hand guy as his chief of staff. And so I moved out there and it gave me a really interesting view of the entire balance sheet. The bank at the time was about 65 billion. And what I was noticing was that bank was stretching to find commercial real estate loans because at that time that was in 05 and 06 as you may recall. CMBS market was absolutely on fire and there was no really, there's really poor risk management and pricing didn't make sense and so that forced the banks to really stretch. So with that I started thinking about it like and start talking with my old partners about how we thought there might be a hiccup in the market particularly with the community bank sector. So after a few years I left the bank, moved back to Boise, got the team back together and, and we established a 10 with our own capital as well as a family office. We're not, weren't Set up as a debt fund. We just had a, you know, set up a company and capitalized it with a lot of equity and, and started a 10. But at that time, we were sort of doing relatively small balance loans, which would have been sort of loans that a lot of community banks would have done. But once the credit crisis hit, as you recall, it was every week there was 10 or 20 banks that were getting taken over and, and sold off to the bigger banks. And so the community banks are basically out of the market for four or five years. And that gave us that opportunity to kind of get in and establish the business. And then after we got that established, we worked on sort of lowering our cost of capital and ultimately got to a point where we could increase our loan size and, and get more competitive in the marketplace and sort of evolve our business as well. But you're right today, back then we were even. The word debt fund didn't really exist. I started kicking in around 14 or 15. Sweet. I think we kind of have a head. Had a head start. We're not technically a debt fund, but. But that's our primary competitor for sure.
- [23:39]
B
What, by the way, what's the origin of the name A10? Well, what's the background?
- [23:45]
C
Well, I guess the picture's worth a thousand words.
- [23:49]
B
Yeah. And for those listening on Spotify and Apple Music, they're not going to see this, but. So what was it you just showed a plane.
- [23:58]
C
I wasn't. Yeah, yeah. So the. What's kind of cool? A 10 Warthog is a. Is a very cool attack airplane. And Living, in fact, is one of the only remaining a 10 Squadron. The airplane is being retired, but one of the last squadrons. It's actually based here in Boise. And if you look at the history of the plane, it's very cool and supports, you know, the infantry. And it's just kind of a neat airplane. We kind of played off that. But the true. The real answer is hard to find a website with a name that's available. K2 skis has a. A letter and a number. And we thought a 10 sounded cool. So that's really what it was.
- [24:41]
B
That's it.
- [24:42]
C
As it turns out, when we go to a conference or whatever, our name's at the top of the list. But I. I can't say I was smart enough to figure that one out.
- [24:47]
B
Oh, I like that. Yes. Well, when. When as a kid, I guess if they did, you know, roll call alphabetically or chose kids to do certain things alphabetically by first name. And I was always one of the first. But I like that your, your name would be at the top of the sponsor list. And you know, there's so many, there's so many real estate companies that are you know, named after a rock or a stone or a color.
- [25:14]
C
Right.
- [25:15]
B
Blend together.
- [25:16]
C
Right.
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B
So you know, talking about, you know, when you formed your company in 07 when there were very few private lenders in the institutional or you know, sub institutional world. Now today there's hundreds of them. And how do you, how do you compete, you know, do you feel like it is harder to compete with so many debt funds and private lenders out there backed by you know, traditional equity shops like Wall Street Equity shops to backed by high net worth individuals who are now syndicating through their clubs or YPO network and we know each other through ypo and, and they're doing the same loan amounts as you and it's like they're sprinkling up everywhere. And I feel almost on a monthly basis as a firm we're being asked to, to create new debt funds and do fund formations for new lending platforms. And I just wonder how is there enough business for all of these debt funds and private lenders to go around?
- [26:38]
C
Yeah, that's a great question. You know, we've got a kind of a, in a way a first mover advantage. You know we've got a pretty significant existing portfolio and existing borrowers who know us. So you know, last year I think 20 or 30% of volume was repeat borrowers. So that, that's, that's a big advantage. Unlike some of the Johnny come lately debt funds. You know those groups are typically going to be five people in a Bloomberg screen. You know, capital allocators. Essentially we have a platform, we have 50 people, we have an entire origination team maybe is important. We have servicing in house. So a lot of the newer debt funds they're going to outsource servicing to you know, one of the big servicers and, and that especially on bridge loans where what I can tell you for sure in a bridge loan is almost nothing ever goes as planned. And we found is that just having someone to talk to is important. We may not, we try to be reasonable and accommodate as much as we can as a lender but ultimately what matters is being able to actually call someone and try to work through a situation because situations always come up and I think that's a big advantage. And then you know, the market's huge, you know, and you know when times like last year there's just a lot of deal volume to get Sprinkled around times like today or Covid. We've been set up and we've been able to withstand those kind of capital market volatility events and that's when we actually shine. So you know, we picked, we're picking up, I think we'll pick up volume this year. We did during COVID There was a hiccup was in 2021, the first quarter when Covid kind of reemerged. We did a lot of volume then where a lot of kind of people pulled out. So it's. Yeah, seems like we do better when things get dicier kind of on Wall Street.
- [28:36]
B
Sure, yeah. Do you think, you know, as we sit here in November, Almost December of 22 in the next six months, are we going to see the certain lenders having the same type of issues that they had during those Covid years where we may lose some lenders because of the way they're structured?
- [29:05]
C
I do, I mean, I can just tell you that from my experience right now, I'll call it the debt capital markets in general.
- [29:15]
B
Yeah.
- [29:15]
C
Probably as bad as it was in 2011 and they were almost non existent then. So I think that's going to, you know, just, you know, it creates a increased cost of capital, it makes it harder to make economics work for lenders and I think that, you know, has a way of sort of leveling off the playing field a bit.
- [29:40]
B
Are you surprised how quickly this all happened?
- [29:45]
C
I am. We had a board meeting today and you know, cause us to reflect back a little bit over the last, you know, three to six months and it's, it's actually, if you actually put it down on paper, it's, it's, it's fastest I've seen something move for sure.
- [30:01]
B
Yeah. I mean when in the great financial crisis, it's like there, there was a lot of concern in 07 and in 08 and then it was September of 08 when Lehman went under and then.
- [30:15]
C
You know, what's that? Yeah, the extended pretend that was going on.
- [30:22]
B
Yeah. And so how do you, if you put your, if you, if you turn on your crystal ball, how do you view the next 6 12, 18 months compared to prior cycles where there were liquidity crunches? I mean, what, what's in store for both lenders and borrowers during the short medium time period?
- [30:49]
C
You know, you know what we're, I don't know if this is just a flavor of the last two weeks, but we are. Or I don't know if it's a trend, but I, I feel like There will be for a while, some, I don't know, I'll use the word rescue capital kind of loosely, but I feel like there's going to be. And we're starting to see a number of pretty high quality properties that didn't achieve their business plans but have a loan maturing those existing lenders want out. At the same time, cap rates are going up. And so I feel like there's gotta be sort of a reset of capital stacks which probably includes, you know, maybe some of the existing borrowers bringing us some equity. It might require some really creative financing from firms like us where we do like stretch senior deals to get. To minimize the amount of new equity that has to come in based on a lower value.
- [31:58]
B
So I think, I think that you'll provide.
- [32:03]
C
So we, we don't provide that on the prep side, but we have a few, you know, kind of, I don't know, alignment affiliations, if you will, with groups that we know and like.
- [32:15]
B
Yeah.
- [32:16]
C
Behind us and that. And you know, that I, we're actually a deal right now and we're putting, we're playing matchmaker, right. We're taking our bar, we're making introductions into a prep equity stretching up, maybe doing a little mez on it as well to kind of make all the capital stacks work in a very tough time. So I think it's. Creative finance is probably going to be a mantra that we'll see in the next six, nine months, if I had to guess.
- [32:44]
B
So I guess in our remaining time here, a couple sort of lightning round questions. What do you, and do you envision putting more money to work in 2023 compared to 22 or, or less?
- [33:05]
C
That's a great question. We're being tasked right now putting our budget together for 2023. And it's, it's, it's probably the hardest budget we've had to think about. Right. Because we just don't have clarity on where rates are going to stabilize. And I think that's the part that's been paralyzing to the market. Right. If you're a big institution, do you want to invest in whatever instrument, whether it's debt or equity today, and then, you know, 30 days from now, rates go up. So, you know, rates have gone up. That means your bond, if you will, has gone down or cap rates have gone up, capital values have gone down. So I feel like a lot of people are paralyzed until things stabilize and that makes it really tough to predict.
- [33:48]
B
All right, so we'll take that as a non answer, but that's okay. Jerry, what about, do you think the Fed. There's some talk about a boomerang effect where, where the Fed may even by the fourth quarter, actually have to lower rates. Do you, do you agree with that?
- [34:11]
C
My best guess. And if I, if I could guess more accurately, I wouldn't be here talking. I'd be doing something more fun.
- [34:17]
B
But wait, you're saying this isn't fun talk being on Real talk to me golfing? Well, next time you're in la, we'll make sure we golf.
- [34:29]
C
I don't know, I just feel that the Fed's been fairly deliberate in their message and that, and I do think there's a, there's a lag in all the things they're putting into play. That site personally don't think that rates will come down that quickly, even though I know there's talk of that. I'm expecting they'll be held up for a while to really slow things down.
- [34:53]
B
Why should people live in Boise, Idaho?
- [34:56]
C
Well, I'm looking over my computer and I see our local ski hill with snow on it. And it opens up Saturday, so probably not. I'll be in a, I'll be at a basketball tournament. But 16 miles away is a ski hill so you can get a full day work. And we have night skiing, so. All right. Of the week. So it's great outdoors, good quality of life, not much of a commute. And as a result, I've met more people in the last, probably year and a half than I have in 25 years from LA that have actually are moving into Boise. And a couple of them move legitimate businesses up here, some private equity guys included.
- [35:41]
B
Well, on a serious note, I mean, one of my colleagues who has worked with me for, gosh, since 06 or 07 moved to Boise a couple years ago. Well, her family's there, but, you know, loving it. And Boise has become a market where we had, I probably hadn't done any deals in Boise up until maybe 2018 or 19. And in the last, you know, two, three years have done a significant number of multifamily deals and almost one office deal. But there wasn't, there wasn't enough capital interest for office. And this was before the office crunch recently. But on the multifamily side of things, Boise has just been a red hot market. And I haven't been there personally. But until, you know, one day maybe you'll invite me and we can ski and play golf on the same day.
- [36:37]
C
Yeah, that'd be great. Yep. Yeah. The Tribeca as they call it. You get the fly fish as well, all on the same day.
- [36:42]
B
I love it. Well, Jerry, you're so generous with your time. I really appreciate it. I, I know that our audience is going to really appreciate hearing this podcast, especially in, in today's market and hearing from a lender who's doing deals and, and, and, and just describing, you know, what we're seeing out there and giving some perspective. So really appreciate you coming on on the Real Talk.
- [37:08]
C
Thank you so much.
- [37:09]
B
All right, Jerry, take care.
- [37:10]
C
You, too.
- [37:14]
A
You've been listening to Real Talk real estate discussions with Andrew Kirsch. You can catch prior episodes@www.sklawkirsch.com and on YouTube, LinkedIn, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, and more. Thank you for your positive reviews, comments, and sharing this show with others.