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NAD+, Detox, Fertility & More: Why This Molecule Matters So Much | Dr. Greg Kelly of Qualia
01:02:47
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- [00:00]
Courtney Swan
On today's episode of the Real Foodology.
- [00:02]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
Podcast, I need to do other things in addition to the good lifestyle and diet choices.
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Courtney Swan
Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of the Real Foodology Podcast. I am your host, Courtney Swan, and Today's guest is Dr. Gregory Kelly. He is the VP of Product Development at Qualia Life. He's also a naturopathic physician, and he's the author of the book Shapeshift. I'm a huge fan of Qualia Life supplements. In fact, they're one of the only ones that I actually trust and personally take in my own life, which is why I love bringing him on here and doing a deep dive into their supplements. Qualia has a product called nad. So we talk about what NAD is, what is it used for in the body, how it helps with longevity and aging, what are signs and symptoms that you might have declining levels of nad, what NAD will do for you as far as how you'll feel in your body. We dive into what makes NAD different than other ones on the market. And I was really fascinated by this, and I'm about to go take my NAD plus right now because I haven't taken it yet today. Stay tuned till the very end. We share a code that you can use to order qualia products for 15% off. We mentioned some other products in there that I really love and that I personally take and use every day, and you can use that code for all of them. So make sure you stay tuned till the very end to get that code. If you could take a moment to rate and review the podcast. I know I say this every week and you're probably tired of it, but if you haven't done it yet, it takes about two seconds. It's super easy. Maybe you could get a friend to do it, maybe a family member to do it, and it really does help this show. This is how we thrive and we get more listeners. So thank you so much for your support. It really does mean a lot. Thank you so much for listening to the episode. And as always, if you're loving this particular episode, tag me at Real Foodology. Also tag at Qualialife, and I will do my best to repost them. Thank you so much for your support, guys. Greg, thank you so much for coming back on. It's such a pleasure to have you back. It was such a great episode that we did before, and so I'm excited to dive into NAD today.
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Dr. Gregory Kelly
Yeah, I think it's a super interesting area, so I'm excited to share some with you and to our listeners Today.
- [02:13]
Courtney Swan
Yeah. So. Okay. So admittedly for me, NAD is something that I've been hearing about for a while. But, you know, we hear about so many different supplements and so many different things to take. And sometimes even for myself, I have a hard time you know, differentiating between like, okay, what are the things I really need to do versus the things that, you know, maybe just are like trends and they're going to come and pass. But it seems like NAD has some really, really cool research behind it, especially for longevity. So can you expl what NAD is and what it's used for in the body?
- [02:41]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
Yeah. So going back to when I was doing my pre med and first year of naturopathic school, biochemistry classes would have taught NAD as having two pivotal roles. One is it's needed to kind of carry the energy in food so that at some point mitochondria can turn it into energy. So think of that as one like nad, super important to make cellular energy. The other is NAD can have a P tagged onto it. So NADP would be the way it shows up in a chemistry book. And when that happens, it's involved in building molecules and helping cells detox. So glutathione as an example, which you would know, I'm sure many listeners, it's super important molecule inside cells to help them with antioxidant defenses, to detox things from the environment. And in that NADP role, the core NAD molecules is involved in that, like protection and building other molecules. So those are the classic things. But then late 90s, this other group of uses for NAD became more and more well established in scientists like a David Sinclair, who I'm sure some listeners would know of. And these are thought of as consumption uses. So those first two I mentioned, the NAD molecule kind of just toggles back and forth between two states. In biochemistry, that's called redox, you don't really need to know it. But in these consumption uses, the molecule is literally devoured and broken apart to fuel an enzyme. And the enzymes that were found to be dependent on NAD include something called sirtuins. And David Sinclair was the, the original researcher or his lab was on those. And they're involved with a lot to do with cellular stress and presumably longevity. Then eventually what are called PARPs. And again, listeners don't need to know that. But PARPs are enzymes used to repair DNA, which is crazily important, right? We want our DNA just over time as it replicates itself, there can be drift and errors that kind of get, get introduced into the code and we have enzymes that repair that. And the NAD molecule is food for those enzymes, so to speak. So those two uses, I think, were why, by the, say, like 2005 or 6, NAD was starting to show up in scientific studies, connected really strongly to longevity. And then I think the really pivotal study was actually David Sinclair's lab in 2013, where when they did something to boost NAD in animals, they found those animals live longer and were way healthier. All of a sudden there was this direct link to, oh, maybe we should do things to fuel the pipeline, so to speak, so that our bodies can maintain more youthful levels of NAD through the aging process. And maybe we won't get all the benefits those animals had, but we will get some of them. That is the big picture journey. But for listeners, just to reiterate any of these crucial for making energy, for helping cells protect themselves and build molecules, and then to fuel different things that cells rely on to keep themselves healthy. Healthy, no matter what the stress is or damage to DNA.
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Courtney Swan
Okay, that's fascinating. So you mentioned energy a couple times. So my brain always just goes straight to mitochondria. So my assumption would be that NAD is having an effect on our mitochondria. Is that true?
- [06:19]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
Yeah. So nad, there'd be a lot of that molecule actually stored inside our mitochondria and some outside the mitochondria as well. But yeah, so ultimately, what mitochondria do is they convert the stored hydrogens, which are electrons in food, into cellular energy, or ATP, and NAD is what carries most of those hydrogens. So the NAD becomes nadh. It basically accepts that. And then that H is what powers the mitochondria, the hydrogen.
- [06:56]
Courtney Swan
Okay, amazing. And so when people take nad, will they feel a remarkable difference in their energy or is it more just something that is subtle that they would notice?
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Dr. Gregory Kelly
I would use the idea of more subtle. It's not like a stimulant. Yeah.
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Courtney Swan
So it's not like you're gonna. Yeah, okay.
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Dr. Gregory Kelly
But it's super common that people I know, taking quality NAD plus as an example, the number one thing I hear from people is a sense of feeling more energy, but more maybe in that vitality or not fatigued sense than like that, you know, jittery energy type of caffeinated or stimulant effect.
- [07:35]
Courtney Swan
Okay, that's amazing. I love that word vitality so much because it just gives this picture of what I think more of, like, is lifespan. Because, you know, so many people are talking about longevity in the sense of like, you know, like, for example, I hear the Dave asprey's of the world say, like, I'm Gonna Live to 150. And then I see, you know, the contrarian people saying, well, I don't want to be here for 150 years. Like, I would rather not have to live that long. But this is where I come into the conversation of, you know, lifespan, which I think is so important that not enough people are talking about is the quality of life while you're here. And my assumption would be that nad would really help with that. Like, like you said, vitality. So that while you're here on earth, like, no matter what phase of life you're in, you're going to have the energy to show up for the things that you want to do and have clarity to, you know, show up the best for the work that you do, et cetera. Like you, it's all about having that vitality for life so that you can show up for things that you, you want to and need to in life.
- [08:32]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
Yeah, absolutely. I, I don't know who introduced it, but I've seen the idea once in a while of something called six span. And the general idea is that's the time towards the end of our life. And for some people, maybe not even close to the end, it could be many, many years before that. We have some degree of disability or chronic issue that's impacting us severely enough that we don't actually get to live our life to our fullest. And one of the interesting things is that that number of years in this expand category has been increasing fairly dramatically and especially in women. In the latest study I saw in the U.S. i want to say, over the last 10 to 15 years, six span has increased by two years in women. And on average, somewhere more than a third of women, you know, our years after age 60 are spent in a six span kind of state for most, for the average Americans, certainly not, you know, I hope, for most of your listeners.
- [09:36]
Courtney Swan
Yeah, yeah, I think, I think most of my listeners are here because we desire to thrive in life. Right. And that means, you know, in all areas of our life and looking to improve our vitality and our quality of life. And that looks like, you know, taking care of our diet and getting really good sleep and, you know, paying attention to stuff like this, like when nad comes on the market going, oh, that sounds like something maybe I need to be doing in order to continue down this life path so that, you know, I use my parents as an example all the time. I mean, my parents are in their 70s and they're still hiking with me, they're still skiing. They're still doing all the things that, you know, we did together growing up. And it's so amazing because my. My hope is that they'll still be doing that when I have grandkids around, you know. And so that is really what I personally am striving for, because I don't want to be bedridden or finding myself in a wheelchair or, you know, on 20 different medications by the time I'm hitting my 60s or 70s.
- [10:30]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
Absolutely. I'm. I'm all on board with you there. I, you know, my. My dad actually didn't live as long even to make it till 70. And the last, I know, handful of years after he retired, he, you know, he would have struggled just to navigate a big airport just from his weight and health. So he was like, yeah, I'm done traveling, you know. So, yeah, like, I think, you know, all of us probably, you know, listening to this call, have examples in our life of people who, you know, we may love but whose health, rejected, we may not want to duplicate.
- [11:05]
Courtney Swan
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, Western traditional medicine has told us, oh, that's just aging. That's just what happens. You know, you just age, and all these things decline. And while obviously there is a truth to some of that, I don't believe that that is all of our fate and the truth about the fact of the matter that that's what's actually happening. And I don't think that we're taking care of our diets and our lifestyles in the way that we should be. And so this is why, personally, I was super excited to do this episode because nad just really intrigues me, and I don't know much about it. And so I wanted to learn about all the ins and outs of it and how I can thrive into my 70s and 80s.
- [11:44]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
Yeah. And I think before we dive back into NAD, what you just hinted at, I think, to me, is really important. And it's. I would almost put it in the storytelling category. We have these stories like, oh, aging is inevitable, or this is what happens. And my desire for Dr. Greg, at least, is to be a better storyteller to myself and people I care about. And I remember whenever I would have seen Finding Nemo originally in the theaters, there's a scene, and I might not have the exact, you know, seen perfectly accurate, but he ends up with these sea turtles, and they're in the Gulf Stream, and one of them has a surfer voice, and, you know, he's talking to him, and I think the sea Turtle says something like, oh, Dude, I'm like 120 years old and, and still young, that type of thing. And so ever since then, my story is always like, oh, I age in sea turtle years. Right. I love that. Kind of the counterpoint to aging in dog years. And, and you know, whether that matters or not, like, who knows. But I think the stories we tell ourselves and the things we believe do color the results we can get in life.
- [12:53]
Courtney Swan
Absolutely, I completely agree. I think there's so many different factors to longevity and higher quality of life and I think just one of them is diet and obviously taking care of your health. But there's so many other things, you know, your mindset and all of that. Okay, so. Or, sorry, were you going to say something?
- [13:09]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
I was going to say, let's just dive back into nad. So another reason, you know, as it became more connected to longevity and just for listeners, NAD is not something you could just go into like your doctor's office or like a lab core request and say, oh, like run my NAD levels. It's generally been a hard to measure thing done in university settings or, you know, research settings. But with the attention on longevity, there have been more and more studies that have looked at NAD levels of different people at different ages. And one of the consistent findings is that NAD levels decrease progressively as we get older. Occasionally I'll hear people say, oh, what, you know, what about exercise? Doesn't exercise help? And the answer is like, yes and no. Right. So one study I thought was super interesting was they compared NAD levels in red blood cells among sprinters, older sprinters, older lungs, distance runners, and then sedentary people. And the sprinters had the best levels on average. The long distance runners next best sedentary, not so great. So exercise was clearly playing a role. And that said, all of these were still progressively declining. So the 70 year old sprinter had much higher levels than a 70 year old sedentary person, but much lower levels than a 40 year old sprinter as an example. Right. So, and I know I've done before and after NAD testing on myself and you know, generally think I do pretty healthy things and sleep, you know, exercise. I'm not a sprinter, but I do exercise and you and me both and my levels on their own without doing something like quiet nad, I can't keep in an optimal range just through good lifestyle. And for listeners, I'm in my early 60s so that I'm working against time. Right. So if I want my levels to be more like, you know, a younger Greg's would be Then I need to do other things in addition to the good lifestyle and diet choices.
- [15:13]
Courtney Swan
Okay. Yeah. I mean, that's a really good reminder. Well, because as, as with most of these things, we do know that NAD declines over time. And why is that? Is it just in a natural progression that happens while we age?
- [15:24]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
Yeah, it's. It's not really. It's not diet. Right. So my diet, I'm probably getting as many things that would help my cells build it at this point in my life as I was 30 years ago, because my diet really hasn't changed that much. So it's really more about one. Like our cells is the cell's ability to make it degraded a little bit. And the answer is probably yes. Another big reason is those consumption uses that I mentioned. There's probably more fuel needed for. For those than there was, say, 30 years ago. So because of that, the NAD molecules that my cells are making are just getting broken apart quicker. Right. So there's just more demand, and then there's other things that play into it. You would know of the concept of inflammaging, but inflammation can cause also consumption of a lot of the NAD our cells would make. And then we talked about zombie cells, you and I, in the past, too. Right. And zombie cells, so senescent cells would be the accurate name for them scientifically, can consume a lot of nad. Like, they can be voracious consumers of it. And so they're using more than their fair share of the resources, so to speak. And we build up more in general zombie cells as we age as well. So you have all these different factors playing in that make it really hard for our cells to stay well filled with the NAD molecule as we get older.
- [16:51]
Courtney Swan
Yeah, that's really fascinating. And, you know, you brought up inflammaging, and, you know, this is something that, you know, all of us just living in the world that we live in, and we're being exposed to so many different things. You know, pollution off, gassing of our furniture, you know, pesticides, like, you name it. All the stuff that I talk about, which can all lead to, I think can lead to the senescent cells. Right. And then can also lead to this inflammation. Yeah, inflammaging. And, you know, I don't. I obviously never say any of this to scare people because, you know, we can only control so much, so we can't live in fear about it. But there are things that we can do in order to decelerate some of that kind of stuff and take care of ourselves in Other ways. And one of them would be taking nad.
- [17:32]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
Yeah. And there's a few other big names besides David Sinclair that are scientists that have specialized on NAD and, you know, ways to maintain healthy levels. One of them is Dr. Charles Brenner, and he's famous for discovering how nicotinamide riboside, which is an NAD booster, can be turned into nad. He was the one that identified those enzymes, the ones that do the work. And I had an opportunity at one point to speak to him for another podcast. And one of the things he strongly believes, based on the research, and he's much more focused as a scientist, was that when you think of nad, the main thing you should think of is it's what our cells rely on when they're metabolically stressed or stressed in other ways without enough, they're just not resilient. It's just a really central molecule for allowing them to respond healthily to stress. And so going back to, I guess, to the zombie cells. So one of the things that senescent cells do that gives them that nickname of zombie cells is they secrete stressful compounds, often very inflammatory, into the environment around them, which act to stress healthy cells. And if a healthy cell's not got enough resilience, it also becomes a zombie cell. Right. And that's one of the reasons zombie cells propagate and kind of like a snowball rolling downhill as we get older. And NAD would be one of the things that would allow them to say, I got this. I can handle this stress and not be zombified by you. So it's just super important that just like us, like, I don't know, you know, two days from now, something really stressful may happen in my life or environment that I'm not planning for. And our cells are like us. They can get stressed out by many of the same things that you talk about. Radiation, poor nutrition, social stress, even can affect our cells. And, you know, often they don't know it's coming. Right. So we need them to have the resources available so when stress does occur, they can say, I got this.
- [19:46]
Courtney Swan
Yeah, I love that. And you had mentioned. So there are natural ways, too. What are just some natural ways that we can build nad. Obviously you mentioned, too, that it's better to supplement so that we can get to the optimal levels. But just out of my curiosity, what are ways also that we just naturally build nad?
- [20:04]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
Yeah. So the N in NAD stands for what's nicotinamide? But that for people, they probably would recognize that there's a vitamin called niacinamide nicotinamide is just another way of saying that same niacin, which is the flushing E3 also can be made into the N. Right. So those two, what I think of as the classic forms of vitamin B3 are the old ways, but they can help for sure build the NAD molecule. The amino acid tryptophan, believe it or not, goes through like 11 different steps, but it can be made into the N molecule eventually.
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Courtney Swan
Interesting. Tryptophan is connected to so many different things. The more I learn it's so interesting like at. I know it's a precursor to htp, right?
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Dr. Gregory Kelly
Yep.
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Courtney Swan
There's so many. Yeah, there's. The tryptophan is a funny one. I hear about it a lot actually.
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Dr. Gregory Kelly
There's a couple different routes tryptophan can go. And most tryptophan we consume goes into that 11 step pathway, it's called. And. But then a whole bunch of different things can be made off of that. But the endpoint can also be making the end. So we can make nad. It also can fuel another pathway that goes into the htp, serotonin, melatonin, if you like, shunting in that direction. And the other interesting thing about tryptophan is that we don't really get large amounts in our diet. So some amino acids like glycine or tyrosine we might get like someone. Even a moderate protein diet is getting 10, 15, 20 grams of. But a diet rich in tryptophan might only be somewhere less than a gram for sure. So it's also an interesting amino acid in that we don't have to supplement a lot to really make a big impact on it. Where to move the needle on something like lysine, we might need to take grams of as an example. But yeah, you're right, it's a really interesting thing because it plays into mood and sleep and inflammaging and NAD and all kinds of other things.
- [22:06]
Courtney Swan
Yeah, it's really fascinating. So I want to ask you about NAD and fertility and if there's any connection there. I'm personally my listeners know that I'm on what I'm calling my year of like a fertility journey because I'm really hoping to be pregnant by the end of this year. And. And again, my assumption is because this is repairing DNA, it helps with energy levels, it helps with mitochondria, that it would help with fertility. And is there any sort of connection there?
- [22:33]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
You know, I, off the top of my head, I don't have any studies that come to mind, but I Know, it has been looked at for things and it's one of the things is that reproduction takes a lot of energy, like cellular energy. Right. ATP and those cells often, you know, can almost age prematurely because of stress and other things. So you know, I don't want to make up science, but I'm pretty sure I've seen things in the past. These would be animal studies where maintaining more optimal levels of NAD has been connected to fertility. I'm not aware of any human studies though that have looked at that.
- [23:18]
Courtney Swan
Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I guess just in general, like I said, and this is just me and my personal just lens and assumption is that if it's helping repair DNA and it helps with ATP production and you know, is in, in those pathways helping with the mitochondria, my assumption would be that it would have a positive effect at the very least on your, your eggs and your cells.
- [23:38]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
Yeah, and I think it would also play into. So one of the things, there's a framework, the hallmarks of aging that, you know, mitochondria and inflammation and gut dysbiosis and telomere shortening and senescent cells are all kind of woven into that. And NAD is connected to most of those hallmarks. So and the reason it is is because when we don't have enough of it, then cellular function acts in an older way and with like reproductive cells, they often are really voracious energy dependent cells. And so they, they tend to suffer just like our brain does, more than some other cells because they're so reliant on ATP as an example.
- [24:22]
Courtney Swan
That makes sense. Hopefully we'll be seeing more studies on this moving forward as we've started slowly in science making the connections and realizing that we can't just silo out every little bit, you know, different mechanism in the body and also silo out different body parts because you know, we're realizing it's all connected. You know, it's very fascinating. This is why I love the study of holistic and naturopathy, which you know, you've studied and know very well is that we're looking at the body as a whole and realizing that if it's affecting one thing in our body, it's going to, it's going to have a cascade effect on everything else in the body. And it's just, I love that and I hope science goes down that path further.
- [25:02]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
Well and I know the, you know, like the, what I would think of as the old time nature paths. Back when I was a student in the early to mid-90s were, you know, super interesting because they didn't know biochemistry, you know, like it was not their thing. Right. They learned something different back when they would have got their degrees, but there was this strong belief that our health was dependent on the health of our tissues and organs and that their health was dependent on the health of our cells. So while they didn't know, you know, like say, the biochemistry of nad, and a lot of that didn't exist when they would have, even when I was in naturopathic school, that recognition that, you know, when we do things to build health from that lower level at more a holistic level, good things tend to happen and often in many, many different systems. Right. And I know, you know, my general approach as a naturopath would have been along the lines, and this oversimplifies it for listeners, but it would be like, okay, in general, if we give the body more resources, more of the things it relies on, and remove obstacles to using them or that are impairing its function, which can be toxins or things that you talk about all the time with your audience. That combination, more resources, removing obstacles, almost always, remember, really good things happen.
- [26:20]
Courtney Swan
Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like you give the body the tools and things that it needs in order to function properly. It wants to be in a state of health, and it will figure out a way to do that if given the right environment and the right tools.
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Dr. Gregory Kelly
Yep, absolutely. So then I was just going to say we. We didn't complete, like, how to make NAD.
- [26:39]
Courtney Swan
Oh, yeah. Let's finish.
- [26:40]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
So there's the old B3s, the tryptophan, but then there's these new Earth compounds that appear to be more efficient in allowing ourselves. So one of those is nicotinamide riboside, which I mentioned connected to Dr. Brenner, and another one is NMN, which is more connected to David Sinclair. And those are one step or more closer to the final NAD molecule than the older B3s. They probably also have different impact in the gut microbiome than those older ones. And it does look like certain tissues in our body have preferences. So some tissues, the kidney as an example, I think, actually has a preference to using the flushing niacin to make nad. Other tissues may be a different one. So in general, I know when that's the case, when cells can use a lot of different things to do something, I like to give them all those different things and then let them figure out how to use them. So I know at Qualia we would take the approach that supplying a blend of these different ways to build it would be our preferred way of doing it.
- [27:50]
Courtney Swan
Okay, and you helped recently formulate the Qualia nad. Can you tell us about that? What makes it so innovative?
- [27:56]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
Yeah, so qualia NAD uses niagen, which is the clinically studied form of nicotinamide riboside, both of the old types of B3 as well, for that portfolio reason I mentioned. And then we combine it with a bunch of things that help those molecules progress through their pathways to get and be made into nad. Because cellular work always uses enzymes. So enzymes are the workhorses. And so if we would take NRA as an example, it still has to go through two enzyme steps before it can be made into nad. And flushing niacin, it's three, Niacinamide, the non flushing, it's two. And every single one of those enzymes uses ATP. Every single one. So NAD is super important to make ATP, but ATP is crazily important to make it NAD molecules. And so much of the rest of what we add in are cofactors, like the full B complex, magnesium, that are critical in allowing our cells to both make and use ATP. So that's one of the things that makes the Qualia product distinctive. So it's those two features that we combine, a blend of building block molecules and then variety of nutrients to help cells do the work. They need to be able to turn those molecules into nad. And because of that, when we've studied ours, ours has consistently worked to boost NAD levels quite drama dramatically.
- [29:35]
Courtney Swan
That's amazing. What are some of the compounds that you've put in there that you found have really made a difference?
- [29:41]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
So one of the more interesting things, so different, I mentioned different tissues, so much in the body is tissue specific, even enzymes. So the enzymes that would turn the NMN molecule into nad, which everything passes through at some point or another in the brain, caffeine actually allowed that enzyme to work better. So we put what I think of as a microdose of caffeine from an organic coffee berry extract in there to help that. Because helping the brain to make NAD is super important. Right. It's the most energetically demanding organ in our body. We have a small amount of resveratrol because reserve troll also helps with the recycling of the breakdown products, the consumption byproducts, like returning those into nad. Magnesium. I know you know magnesium, most people think, oh, I love magnesium, it's super important. But one of the things that I always surprised, I never hear when people talk about magnesium is that it's really a mitochondrial mineral first and foremost, a lot of it's stored in mitochondria and it's because it's needed to make ATP, but it's also always needed for ATP to be active. So whenever you know listeners, whenever you hear ATP, always think ATP magnesium because it's that complex that allows ATP to do its work.
- [31:14]
Courtney Swan
Awesome. Okay.
- [31:15]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
And then we put did 20 to 25% of the other B vitamins because all the other B's, the whole complex is not just B3 or NRS, are important in converting food ultimately into ATP. So the two focus points of the Kwai NAD plus are building NAD but also building the ATP so that you can build nad.
- [31:39]
Courtney Swan
I love that and that's super fascinating and makes amazing. It makes great sense. So I'm curious from the lens of the B vitamins, so I think a lot of my listeners can relate to this too. So I have MTHFR gene, so I have to be super careful about the sourcing of the Bs that I take because of my under methylating that's happening for these. Would these forms of vitamin B, like the B12 for example be okay for somebody that has MTHFR?
- [32:06]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
Yeah, so that's a great question. So do you know the idea of vitamers? Have you heard that term? So like vitamin D, vitamin B1, B2, but many vitamins have more than one form in our bodies. So in our cells and so when that's the case they're called vitamers, these different forms. Right. So B12 as an example exists as methylcobalamin and also adenosylcobalamin. Like those two forms would be what are ultimately used in enzymes in our body. Folates have a bunch of vitamin forms including a methylated form, a form before the methylated form and others. And foods, not all foods, but many, definitely all animal foods would contain all the vitamers. Plants not always like plants. So like even B3 would have niacin, the flushing vitamin form, niacinamide, the non flushing nicotinamide, riboside and like these are all different forms that would have that vitamin activity. So vitamers and yeast as it turns out would contain all of the vitamin forms as well. So in the Qualia product we actually use an activated yeast to supply the B vitamins and we the way labeling requires, we have to label what was fed to the yeast, but we don't get to label what they produced. So it will show folic acid on the supplement packs on the product. But. But that yeast extract would actually contain the whole family of folates oh, wow.
- [33:45]
Courtney Swan
Okay. And. And obviously, so it would be okay for somebody who has an issue with methylation.
- [33:51]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
Yeah, yeah.
- [33:52]
Courtney Swan
Okay. Oh, that's so fascinating. I've. Cause I was wondering about that. Cause, you know, I'm actually looking at the label right now and I can see all this, like, from culture. And I was so curious about that because, you know, I've been trained to look like, okay, is that vitamin B12? Is it a whisker with the adena? Adenocobalamin?
- [34:09]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
Yeah, adenosylcobalamin, which is sometimes called cobamimide. But adenosyl is usually how it's labeled. And that has a different role compared to the methylcobalamin, which is, I think, of the methylcobalamin as much more studied for the brain and nervous system, where adenosil has slightly different roles. And an animal food, this activated yeast, something that's basically converting the core vitamin into the forms it uses, is going to have the whole portfolio. So it's one of the reasons, like the real foodology. Right. Your podcast food just is more complex. There's inherent synergy and wisdom in food that often doesn't occur when we create these things in isolation.
- [34:56]
Courtney Swan
Absolutely. Yeah. I talk about this all the time and I find that fascinating. So I guess my other question is then, can I, Because I, on the days that I've been taking the nad, plus I don't take my B complex. And I'm asking this because I'm sure many other listeners will be curious about this too. Is it overkill to take your B complex and this as well? Like, is this enough of the vitamin, the B vitamins for you to get what you need?
- [35:22]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
It would certainly be providing more than adequate amounts of any of the B3 vitamin family, but it's only 20 to maybe 28% of the other B vitamin family, so it would depend on an individual. For many of us, that's sufficient to augment what we're getting in a good diet. For some people, they. They feel like, as an example, some people love taking a lot of vitamin B1, like 50 milligrams or more, and will notice that nootropically, you know, as an example. So each individual would need, you know, to kind of make that call. But we're definitely covering all the bases in a way to really fill in the gap between an average diet and what would be a much better diet for all of these.
- [36:08]
Courtney Swan
Okay. And I'm curious, too, also looking at the label, why. And you might have already answered this, but I didn't Get a clear answer that I think that I heard. Why did you use Niagen?
- [36:18]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
Yeah, so Niagen is the. So there's. Niagen is basically the brand name of something called nicotinamide riboside chloride. And it's a crystalline form, which means it's really pure and really stable. And because of that, it's the one that's been used in something like 80% of all the research on nicotinamide riboside. And as far as I know, every single human study on nr. And. And it's a really expensive form of nicotinamide riboside because it's patented and has been so intensively studied. And because we wanted to make the best product possible, we decided that we wanted to use that and partner with the supplier. They sell it themselves under the brand name of. True. But that would be.
- [37:08]
Courtney Swan
I've seen that brand. Yeah.
- [37:09]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
That would be the exact same thing that we're using in the Qualia NAD plus.
- [37:13]
Courtney Swan
But then you're getting all the plus with that as well. Yeah. Everything else added in. So what are the consequences of declining NAD plus levels? Like, is this something that people would see as signs and symptoms that their body is declining in nad?
- [37:28]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
Yeah. I always like to go and start just at like, what's the classic vitamin B3 deficiency things. Right. And so they were. I think I learned them as the three Ds, but sometimes it's called the four Ds. But the. The classic things going way back that led eventually to the discovery of vitamin B3. Three were. One was the idea of dementia, but not in a modern sense like dementia as it was being used back in the 1930s for that deficiency was more brain fog and mood. But just think really strong cognitive challenges showing up. The second D was dermatitis, so there's a really red, scaly skin rash that would eventually develop. And the third D was diarrhea, and the fourth D is death. So, like, that would be the final. And what seems to be the case with milder insufficiency is that it. It tends to still show up in those three areas. Digestion, skin and cognition, slash mood. And so in cognition, slash mood, I also put that sense of energy and vitality because that our brain is what gives us that sensory experience. So those are the main areas. Sleep would be another. That could be an early warning. Feeling like we're not bouncing back well, from exercise could be another. Any of these things that start to have to do with cellular energetics, but cognition especially. Right. So fatigue would be your classic One like feeling fatigued. It doesn't necessarily mean our cells are depleted of energy, but our brain is feeling like they are.
- [39:12]
Courtney Swan
Wow. Okay. I'm like, I need to be more consistent with my nad. I'm for sure. I love, whenever I have you on the podcast, it makes me so excited about the different. I mean, I love all the quality of products and we talked a lot about last time, how I take mind almost every day. I call it. This is just my personal thing. I call it my natural Adderall because it really turns on my brain. And, um, and every time we do these episodes, I'm so motivated then to take, you know, these supplements that you, that you talk about. And for good reason. I mean, this one, I'm like, you know, the NAD sits on my counter and I, I right now, admittedly probably take it like two or three times a week, but I'm like, man, I need to get on this every day. Cuz I'm starting to notice a little bit, like, I'm feeling more fatigued sometimes I don't bounce back from my workouts as much as I used to. And yeah, so I'm excited to get back on it, like full force.
- [40:03]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
Oh, awesome. One other thing, and this is pretty new research, and I think it was actually sponsored by Nestle's, that big food and chocolate company. But the gist of the study, and it was in animals, so it's never completely sure it'll translate to humans. But that niacinamide, that form of NAD booster that is also, along with niagen built into quai, NAD was really important for muscle satellite cells, which are the stem cells in muscle tissue, and it was somehow activating those without making nad, like in a completely different way. And so while NAD is the core story of things like these N containing precursors, again, the other interesting thing in that study is nicotinamide riboside. So Niagen didn't work nearly as well. It was really the niacinamide that, that was needed for these specific type of stem cells. And so when I see things like that, it also makes me go back to again, that wisdom of food. Food has all these things in it. Maybe not as much as we would need to have that action, but it also was encouraging to then have that as more almost justification for why the Qualia approach to providing this portfolio of different, you know, N containing or, you know, NAD boosting things is a wiser way to go.
- [41:34]
Courtney Swan
Yeah, I love that. Well, this is what I love so much about Qualia. I mean, there's there's very few, I have to be honest, there's very, very few supplement companies on the market that I really trust and that I know create really good, high quality supplements and that really dive deep into the science and are very meticulous about their formulations. And Qualia is top of the mind for me with that. I mean, anytime anybody comes to me for any sort of recommendation, I always say, okay, like if they're looking for something that you guys carry, I'm like qualia hands down. Like, I just love all of the formulations you guys make because in my experience, everything I've taken has worked really well. And then it's so cool to have you come on and then you talk about the science behind why you put all these together. And, you know, this is where my nerdy science brain kind of comes in, where I'm like, oh, it's so cool to hear why you put all these different things in there versus other things and to see that it really works well.
- [42:21]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
And I think that really works part is so important and overlooked. You know, we, we do our best to make good products, but then we study our products. You know, we've so far, you know, just even before we made Qualia NAD, I took it for 23 days and measured my NAD levels before and after. Oh, cool. And mine went up. I think it was 149%. So I had a crazy good response to it at the time. The person running the lab is like, what did you do? I've not seen this, but I took it every day, first thing in the morning when I do my hydration. So I took it at the same time I did it every day.
- [43:04]
Courtney Swan
Is that important to do as well? Should you take it every morning first thing?
- [43:10]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
I don't know if first thing is super important, but there's not a lot of circadian or body clock research with NAD or its building blocks, but there's definitely some that would show our levels in our blood naturally would peak about early to mid afternoon. But it takes hours from when we take it orally for it to actually make its way through digestion, the liver to the blood. Taking anything early would help that natural cycle. But the study that to me is the most predictive potentially was in animals where they either infused directly the whole NAD molecule at the beginning, what would be like our breakfast or sunrise or sunset. And one of the things that NAD boosting has been most well known for in animals is metabolic health. So that's your lipids and your glucose and your triglycerides and liver health. And what they found in that study was when the timing mattered, if they gave the NAD infusion at the beginning of the animal's day, good things happened with metabolic health. But if they gave that same thing at the end of the day equivalent to like sunset for us, then bad things happened. So timing mattered immensely. And then to check to see, they also then gave niacinamide as well, that precursor and the same thing, the timing mattered. So it's not a lot to go on but I'm often, often I have a strong belief that body clock thing translates very well from other animals to us because it's all conserved, we're all evolutionarily wired to the sun schedule. And so because of that I choose to do my quality somewhere between first thing in the morning and you know, or at breakfast as the default way. And you know, I've heard other people have different opinions but I, I think at this point that seems to me the most sound approach.
- [45:09]
Courtney Swan
It makes sense. And then you think about too taking into consideration with quality as NAD plus and how it has the B vitamins. I always make sure to take my, my B vitamins first thing in the morning so that my, my food can assimilate the B vitamins to then create ATP. Because I don't want to be you know, energized and creating ATP at like 4 or 5pm and not saying I'm gonna be totally wired, but I think that there is something to waking up your cells in the morning and allowing them to create that energy throughout the day so that by the time sun goes down and you're getting ready for bed, your cells aren't like woo, we're creating all this energy. It's like no, it's time for bed.
- [45:40]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
Absolutely. A lot of the what B vitamins facilitate is converting food into energy and making neurotransmitters. And a lot of that is our day jobs, so to speak. And then I think the other thing is there's, I mentioned earlier we kind of have a microdose of caffeine in our product to facilitate the brain making nad. And I know I like you, I love call you mind but I generally do best when I have any caffeine containing things prior to noon.
- [46:13]
Courtney Swan
Yeah, me too, I'm the same way. So actually okay, that that does remind me because I do want to ease the listeners minds because you know, I do have a fair amount of people that would consider themselves like pretty sensitive to caffeine. So would this be something let's ease their Minds. I mean I'm looking, it's 28 milligrams so it's not even like half a cup of coffee.
- [46:34]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
It'd be more like somewhere between you know, 1/5 to 1/4 of a, like a 10 to 12 ounce cup of coffee.
- [46:43]
Courtney Swan
Okay.
- [46:43]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
So a very you know, small amount and embedded in this like food matrix of the coffee fruit extract. It doesn't seem to be like a, even at a higher amount because we've used this same extract in quality mine. It doesn't seem to be like a, a really hyper jittery, you know, like a caffeine ism type of response to the food compared to the isolated caffeine.
- [47:11]
Courtney Swan
Yeah. And I can tell the listeners too. I, I kind of go back and forth depending on the day and my needs with mind. Sometimes I take, take the caffeine free and sometimes I take the one with the caffeine. And just from my experience with mind and taking that, I don't feel this like crazy jitteriness and neither do I feel with the NAD plus when I take it. But I'm just, you know, my point is like, especially with the mind I really do, I feel this like amazing energy but I don't know how to explain it. It's almost like I've had like a bunch of matcha because I, I don't feel jittery, I don't feel like I've had like a ton of caffeine. I just feel really focused and like energized and same when I take this NAD plus it's kind of like similar, like I don't even really notice the effects of the caffeine.
- [47:52]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
Yeah. And for someone that you know, you know, wants to try it but is a little leery, they could always start with one capsule of the qualia nad or you know, with one or two of the qualia mind with caffeine if they want to give that a try or you know, like you mentioned there's a caffeine free version of qualia mine that's also just an amazing product.
- [48:11]
Courtney Swan
Yeah, this is just more like a selfish question for my personal just understanding because part of the reason I mentioned earlier that I've only been taking the NAD plus a couple times a week is because I don't want to overstep stack too much. Like would it be okay for me to take the caffeine free qualia mind and NAD plus together on the same day? I mean obviously you're not a doctor, but just like relatively speaking, you know, or you are a Doctor. But you, you're not my personal doctor. You can't give medical advice is what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah.
- [48:39]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
So I, I'm super comfortable taking the Qualia Mind stacked with the qualia nad. Frankly, a lot of our products stacked together. Um, you know, I, I've done it all.
- [48:52]
Courtney Swan
Okay, great.
- [48:53]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
Yeah. One of the things we pay attention to would be if someone's stacking multiple of our products, you know, would they be getting into, you know, an amount of a nutrient, a mineral, a vitamin, you name it. That could be potentially not a great thing. And so, you know, we, you know, plan that accordingly when we create our products.
- [49:16]
Courtney Swan
Okay, good. Because that was kind of my question is, you know, I'm, I'm someone who takes a decent amount of supplements and I've always been really careful about not, you know, overstacking them. And so I would take mine one day and nad the other day, but I miss taking my mind every day. You know, it's, it helps a lot.
- [49:31]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
When then things that, you know, I'll do just periodically too. I, I, I love the idea with weightlifting or exercise in general of like a detraining week or sometimes it's called de loading, but that can be, you know, for weight lifting, it could be once every eight to 12 weeks, a whole week where you just don't lift weights or they can be deloading, which means you lift weights, but you're just doing more the yoga of weights, like a lot less weight. And I think that's a sound approach even to supplementation that, you know, for something like Qualia Mind, as an example, because of circumstances through the year, there's invariably a week here or there that, whether it's, you know, preparing for something that doesn't want me to, you know, be taking a bunch of herbs or travel or some other reason that I would naturally have a week off from Qualia mind. And our general Recommendation is always 5 days on, 2 days off anyways. Right. So that there's a break put in for qualia nad. I think of that like a magnesium. The Qualia magnesium is something that's super safe to take every day, but it's also fine to take a de loading or detraining week off every, you know, couple months as well. Which again, I naturally just naturally happens for me. So, you know, and sometimes we also have a product called Qualia Mitochondria plus that, you know, sometimes I'll, I'll shift that front and center and let these other things kind of recede for a few weeks to A month.
- [50:57]
Courtney Swan
So that's really smart. Yeah, I like that. So. Oh, I'm curious too. Is there a possibility, can you ever take too much nad? Can you like quote unquote overdose on it?
- [51:09]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
Yeah. So the NAD precursors, like the flushing niacin has been used in crazy high amounts for managing cholesterol for many, many decades. Right. And the non flushing has also been used in high amounts and at, at really high amounts. So when you get into say like 2 grams of those, then it can definitely start to compromise other things like insulin resistance. If like would be something that some people, not everyone, when they take really high amounts of those precursors can get. And, and I think the framework I usually have for most things would be a Goldilocks principle. So the idea there's a, there's probably a just right amount, right. Like 1 volts too cold and others too hot. But it's not just assume more is better. And I think that that would be the case with NAD boosters in general. You know, whether it's the older ones like I mentioned or the newer ones like NMN or nr, I don't think it's prudent to chase boosting NAD to the being the end all and be all. And one of the things, you know, I mentioned, we've done two studies. What's what the original lab we use was is called Ginfinity. They make finger stick kits to do it and they've done enough testing that they have a sense of okay, this is an optimal level, but they also have a too high level that they've identified. And their optimal is really coded based off what the healthiest, say university age younger people would have. But then there's suboptimal and they have other levels and mine as an example, taking the quality NAD moved me squarely into their optimal range. And it was the same with the other initial people that I had do The N of 1 testing with me before we measured it. So with the amount that's supplied in Kwai nad, I'm really comfortable that we help move people over time into that just right zone without the concern of too much.
- [53:18]
Courtney Swan
Okay. And is that something where just taken consistently, you don't have to worry about like it compounding and then all of a sudden you have really high levels of nad. Like does it kind of like balance itself out? I'm having a hard time asking a question, but do you know what I'm saying? Where you don't have to worry about it compounding? Essentially?
- [53:34]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
Yeah. Well, and what can happen for sure like, so in studies, typically there's a little bit, there's some improvement within a week, there's even more within a month, there's then slightly more by eight weeks. And so it tends to like ramp and then level off over time. So I know with the amount we use, that wouldn't be a concern. But if someone said, oh, like quite NAD is great, you know, instead of doing their suggested dose, I'll just do four or five times that much, then maybe you start to get into that too much and that you are building, you know, like too much. And you had mentioned your methylation status. One of the ways that our body uses to get rid of excesses of any of the N containing things. So when the niacinamide or NAD molecule gets consumed and broken down, niacinamide is a leftover piece always, no matter what we built it with originally. The leftover when it's consumed to repair DNA as an example, is niacinamide. And, and the way our body gets rid of excess niacinamide, like more than it thinks it needs, is putting methyl groups on it so that it can be eliminated. Right. So if we, if we take crazy high amounts of these things, it could really tax our methylation status, which, as you appropriately pointed out, some people have genetic sluggishness through the methylation pathways.
- [55:03]
Courtney Swan
Yeah. Okay, that's good to know. That's fascinating. Well, I got through all my questions. Is there anything else about NAD or just QALI in general that you feel like is important for our listeners to hear?
- [55:16]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
Yeah, I mentioned quickly in passing that we did two studies, so I used to feel like I should close. So we've done two placebo controlled studies. So in addition to, like, you know, my personal experience, and measured NAD levels compared to placebo in both. And the first study, on average, the NAD levels went up 74%. The second study on average was 67%. So we have a lot of confidence that if your listeners take quai NAD that they'll get those benefits. We also looked at symptoms and generally symptoms related to cognition, mood, energy, vitality improved in both of our studies. And then the last thing would be more in the buyer beware category. The company that actually makes Niagen that we buy it from, at one point, I want to say within the last six months, bought a bunch of products on Amazon that claimed to have nicotinamide riboside in them and then had an independent lab test all of them and only five met label claim meaning had the amount of NR that the label said they had and something like 75% had. So like basically little to none and especially bad offenders where any of the liposomal or gummy or those forms. And the reason is. And nicotinamide riboside, like many compounds, is somewhat unstable to moisture and light and other things. And when you make things like gummies and liposomes, you're making it really hard to keep that. So even if those companies put in the right amount, which I don't know, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, they did, they put it into a matrix that's not stable. So because of that, most of these products that they tested off Amazon claim to have nr, but the user wasn't going to get those benefits. So I think it's super important for listeners, whether it's Qualia Ned or another product to boost nad, it's important to know one that compound that you're relying on to build NAD is actually in the product. And even better, when a company like Qualia has done studies and shown our product actually does what we built it to do, which is increase the amount of this in your tissues and then give you actual benefits, like more energy.
- [57:51]
Courtney Swan
Yeah, yeah, it's a great point. It's an overall great point that you brought up, too. And I, I periodically love to just, you know, remind my listeners that personally, I won't buy any supplements off Amazon unless if I know that the company itself is selling that on Amazon, because I just don't. There's so many scammers and fraudulent supplement companies that are selling on Amazon and there's really no way to check. There's no, like, checks and balances. And so you could be buying a supplement that you think is something and it could be something else that they just put the label on there from the brand. And so I'm very, very careful and I'm very cautious about ordering off Amazon. I usually won't. Unless if it's like, like if I went, I'm not saying this happens, but like, if I went to qualia.com and it redirected me to Amazon, then I'd go, okay, I'm happy to buy it like that, but otherwise I don't usually buy supplements on Amazon. I just don't trust it.
- [58:43]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
Yeah, there's even. I want to say in that what the makers of Niagen found was that there was fraudulent Truniagen being sold on Amazon that they bought. And when looked at closely, it's clear that it's fraudulent, but of course, it didn't have any actual NR in it. So, yeah, I think it's for things as important as supplements. And I love Amazon. I've been an Amazon prime person for many, many years. But for supplements, I like to go directly to the company's website personally to buy them whenever possible.
- [59:18]
Courtney Swan
Yeah, me too. Which actually, speaking of, I feel like this is a good opportunity just to share with the listeners. So if you guys go to qualialife.com real foodology and you can use the code Real foodology, you'll save 15% off any purchase. So just buy from them directly. We don't trust anywhere else. I don't even know if you can find Qualia anywhere else outside of it, but just know that if you go to the qualialife.com real foodology you'll save 15%. And yeah, I mean, this has been an amazing episode. If you want to just share with the listeners where they can find you and where they can find Qualia.
- [59:51]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
Yeah, so we're qualia life.com I periodically host our or some guests for our Collective Insights podcast. Often I cherry pick people that are neuroscience backgrounds or sometimes longevity, but love that. And then, you know, Instagram is probably the best place to just, you know, follow Qualia. We do a lot of education on that channel. We also do, you know, really long form blogs periodically on our website. I, you know, as Qualiad as an example of Qualia Mind, if you really wanted to go in the weeds about those products, there's long blogs on our website where I explain each ingredient in it and why, you know, I think the ingredient was a fit and why we even chose the amount to include that we did. So, you know, we do our best to be really transparent with our audience. So again, qualife.com or just following us on Instagram would be what I'd recommend.
- [60:51]
Courtney Swan
Yeah. And if you're interested in. We talked about mine and we also talked about those zombie cells, senescent cells. I actually did another episode with Greg and you can just look it up under Real Foodology and you can go back and listen to those and we go into depth more about those, which I thought was really fascinating. And I'm a huge fan of your senolytic product. I'm a huge fan of Mind. Like I said, I take that almost every day. The company's not claiming this. I'm personally claiming this, that I call it my natural Adderall because I have lower BDNF levels and it really helps with my focus and my concentration. I've never found anything like it. And I basically shout it from the rooftops because I love this product so much. So if you guys are interested, I think that the code will also work for those products too.
- [61:32]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
Absolutely will. Yep.
- [61:33]
Courtney Swan
Okay, great. Yeah. So definitely check those out and check out all their amazing products. Qualia is just, you know, in my mind, like top of the game when it comes to supplements and I'm so grateful that you guys are doing the work that you're doing and providing such amazing supplements for people.
- [61:47]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
Thank you. And thank you to all you listeners for joining me today.
- [61:50]
Courtney Swan
Yeah, thank you so much, Greg. Thank you so much for listening to the Real Foodology Podcast. This is a Wellness Loud production produced by Drake Peters and mixed by Mike Fry. Theme song is by Georgie. You can watch the full video version of this podcast inside the Spotify app or on YouTube. As always, you can leave us a voicemail by clicking the link in our bio. And if you like this episode, please rate and review on your podcast app. For more shows by my team, go to wellnessloud.com see you next time. The content of this show is for educational and informational purposes only. It is not a substitute for individual medical and mental health advice and doesn't constitute a provider patient relationship. I am a nutritionist, but I am not your nutritionist. As always, talk to your doctor or your health team first.
- [62:33]
Dr. Gregory Kelly
Looking to live a cleaner and healthier life? Tune in to the Clean Kitchen Podcast. I'm Kyle Fitzgerald, founder of Clean Kitchen Nutrition. And I'm Kevin Fitzgerald. And every Wednesday we bring you expert tips, real life stories and practical advice on clean eating, healthy living and holistic wellness. Whether you're just starting your health journey or you're a wellness pro, each episode is packed with actionable insights. And to help you make smarter, more mindful choices for your body and mind, tune in to the Clean Kitchen Podcast and take the first step towards a healthier you. Produced by Wellness Loud, where healthy living begins. New episodes every Wednesday.