Ep 1116 | The Lesbian Radical Group Behind 'The Future is Female' | Guest: Lisa Bevere

Summary

Podcast Summary: Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey | Ep 1116 | The Lesbian Radical Group Behind 'The Future is Female' | Guest: Lisa Bevere

Release Date: December 23, 2024

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Introduction and Book Overview

In Episode 1116 of Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey, host Allie Beth Stuckey welcomes Lisa Bevere, a renowned speaker and New York Times bestselling author. The episode centers around Lisa's latest book, "Fight for Female: Reclaiming Our Divine Identity." Allie introduces the conversation by highlighting Lisa's courageous stance on gender ideology from a Christian, conservative perspective.

Reclaiming Divine Identity

At [02:09], Lisa Bevere delves into the core message of her book, emphasizing that women are created in "God's image," asserting, "we are created in God's image...when you start to actually mess with male and mess with female, you're undermining the image of God." She articulates the importance of understanding one's divine identity to combat the pervasive gender ideologies that challenge traditional male-female roles.

The Origin and Misinterpretation of 'The Future is Female'

Lisa recounts a personal experience at [03:59], where she wore a T-shirt proclaiming "The Future is Male and Female," intending to highlight the biological basis of gender. Instead, the message was misconstrued, leading to backlash where she was labeled a transphobe and bigot. This incident prompted her to investigate the phrase's origins, discovering its roots in a 1975 lesbian separatist group called Labrys, who used it as a rallying cry.

“They said the Future is Female was a call to war, an invocation and a spell to cast,” Lisa explains at [05:31]. This revelation underscored the ideological shift from advocating for female empowerment to a more radical agenda aimed at dismantling traditional family structures.

Feminism's Evolution and Its Impact on Society

At [06:02], Lisa challenges the common perception of feminism as solely a movement for women's empowerment, revealing its deep ties to Marxist agendas aimed at dismantling the family unit. She traces feminism's roots back to Mary Wollstonecraft, highlighting its historical trajectory towards promoting self-will and independence from men, which she contends is "very anti-God woven."

Personal Reflections on Marriage and Submission

Shifting to personal narratives, Lisa shares her journey through marital challenges at [15:44]. She recounts her struggle with overwhelming responsibilities as a working mother and her initial resistance to submitting to her husband's leadership. This internal conflict is poignantly captured when she reflects:

"I was in the shower... I heard the question, 'You don't think John's a good head of the household, do you?'... I am holding all of this together." ([15:55])

Through prayer and introspection, Lisa learns to "submit to Jesus," which transforms her approach to marriage. She emphasizes that true submission is about "building a ministry together," where the husband exercises leadership not through domination but through "dominion"—exercising authority on behalf of those under his care ([14:21]).

Roles of Men and Women in the Church

At [28:47], the discussion pivots to the theological roles of men and women within the church. Lisa identifies with complementarianism, advocating for distinct roles based on gender without endorsing egalitarianism. She differentiates between preaching and pastoring, asserting that while women can serve and minister, the role of senior pastor should remain with men.

“I am the voice of a mother in the church... I am under the authority of the pastor who asked me to come and maybe speak,” Lisa explains ([29:53]).

Addressing Misconceptions and Theological Differences

Allie and Lisa navigate through various theological perspectives, clarifying misconceptions about charismatic and reformed viewpoints. Lisa expresses frustration with extra-biblical teachings that deviate from scriptural authority, advocating for a balanced approach that honors God's Word while embracing the workings of the Holy Spirit.

Combatting Deception Through Scripture

At [41:37], the conversation touches on the susceptibility of women to deception, linking it back to Eve's fall and the subsequent curse of enmity between men and women. Lisa underscores the necessity of grounding oneself in Scripture to resist emotional manipulation and ideological distortions.

“If women are led by their emotions, then they are going to be taken captive. But if women are led by the Holy Spirit...,” she asserts ([42:12]).

Overcoming Body Image Struggles

Lisa shares a deeply personal story about her battle with body image stemming from her father's harsh criticisms at [46:22]. She recounts how societal and familial pressures led her to equate thinness with worthiness and love. However, her transformative encounter with Jesus redirected her perspective:

"I stopped being abusive to my body, stopped being angry at my body, started thanking God for my body... I cannot react emotionally. I need to have the guard rails of God's Word and the Holy Spirit." ([46:22])

Through faith and reliance on God's identity for herself, Lisa overcame her struggles, embracing her body as a "living sacrifice" and recognizing her inherent value beyond physical appearance.

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

In the closing moments at [55:28], Allie commends Lisa for her boldness in addressing controversial topics within the Christian community. She encourages listeners to explore Lisa's book for a comprehensive theological understanding of female identity from a biblical standpoint.

“Your boldness is an example for us and I'm just grateful for it,” Allie concludes ([55:28]).

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Key Takeaways

• Divine Identity: Understanding one's creation in God's image is crucial to combating misguided gender ideologies.
• Origins of 'The Future is Female': The phrase's radical roots reveal underlying agendas aimed at societal dismantling.
• Feminism's Evolution: From empowerment to anti-family Marxist agendas, feminism's trajectory poses challenges to traditional values.
• Complementarianism vs. Egalitarianism: Embracing distinct, complementary roles for men and women fosters harmonious relationships in marriage and church.
• Scriptural Foundation: Anchoring decisions and beliefs in Scripture provides resilience against deception and emotional manipulation.
• Body Image and Faith: Reclaiming one's body through faith and gratitude fosters self-worth beyond societal standards.

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Notable Quotes:

• “We are created in God's image... when you start to actually mess with male and mess with female, you're undermining the image of God.” — Lisa Bevere ([02:09])

• “The Future is Female was a call to war, an invocation and a spell to cast.” — Lisa Bevere ([05:31])

• “True submission is about building a ministry together, where the husband exercises leadership not through domination but through dominion.” — Lisa Bevere ([14:21])

• “If women are led by their emotions, then they are going to be taken captive. But if women are led by the Holy Spirit...” — Lisa Bevere ([42:12])

• “I stopped being abusive to my body, stopped being angry at my body, started thanking God for my body.” — Lisa Bevere ([46:22])

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Conclusion

Episode 1116 of Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey offers a profound exploration of feminism, gender ideology, and the divine identity of women through the insightful perspectives of Lisa Bevere. By intertwining personal narratives with theological discussions, the episode provides listeners with a comprehensive understanding of navigating contemporary societal challenges from a Christian, conservative viewpoint.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Lisa Bevere is a speaker in a New York Times Best selling author. Her most recent book, Fight for Female Reclaiming Our Divine Identity, is a bold and a thorough look at the history of feminism, how we got where we did with gender ideology, and why it is so important for us as women to understand both who we are and whose we are. Lisa and I come from different theological camps. We will talk about some of our disagreements when it comes to women preaching in church. But I am so grateful for Lisa and her very unique courage when it comes to this issue that unfortunately many in the church consider too controversial to touch. You will love this episode we talk about so much and she is so encouraging. It's brought to you by our friends at Good ranchers. Go to good ranchers.com use code ALI at checkout. That's good ranchers.com code ALLY Lisa, thanks so much for taking the time to join me. I mostly want to talk to you about your newest book. You are one of the few Christian female teachers I know who will just be outspoken about gender ideology and the reality of male and female, which is sad. So tell me a little bit about it just up front. Like what this book is, why you wrote it.

[B]

Yeah, well, it's called the Fight for Female and Reclaiming Our Divine Identity. And I'm not saying we're goddesses, I'm saying we're created in God's image. And when God creates us, he creates us, male and female, to reflect. And so when you start to actually mess with male and mess with female, you're undermining the image of God. And you know, you and I both, we've talked about this. There's certain things we can be like, okay, I can be quiet on that. The sanctity of life and the image of God is not. Those are not things I can be quiet about And I started to just read these different things of what is happening. And I thought, what is going on and why? If I said anything, Allie, Christian women got mad at me. If I just even said something about men don't belong in women's sports, people would just react and say, this is on Instagram mostly. Well, yeah, that's about the only one I know how to access my Facebook. I don't even have the passwords for it. But people are like, this is so mean. You know, I'm okay with this. And I'm like, no, what is going on? And why are women not using their voice to fight for their daughters? And I started to do a deep dive into, wait, where's the feminists? All these advocates for women being willing to say that men can be women? What is going on? And Allie, the deeper I went into it, the darker it became. And I was like, I, you know what? I'm 64. If everybody gets mad at me and cancels me, that's fine. So I was just like, I don't even care.

[A]

A few years ago, you posted the picture of your T shirt, said the future is male and female, which shouldn't be remotely controversial, but it was considered controversial.

[B]

Yeah. So I. Yeah, I was in Franklin, Tennessee, which is a little Christian bubble, and I went out to this, you know, place with a T shirt on. And the men were like, thank you. Thank you for including us in the future. I'm like, I got you. And then I had women like, I think I need that T shirt. So, Ali, I actually thought everybody liked it. Take a selfie with it. 922 comments within the first 24 hours. People you saw, people are like, you are co signing with patriarchy. This is coding like all lives matter. You are a transphobe, a homophobe, a bigot. You're a demon of hate. I mean, people just went crazy on this concept of the future is male and female. And what I had put underneath it was, the future is male and female. Because without male and female, there is no future. That's not even deep. That's your parents. Like, this is biology. And I remember, I was like, what just happened? So I type into my laptop, what is the origin of the quote? The future is female. And I was shocked. A Washington Post article comes up and. And it was from a lesbian separatist group in 1975 called Labrys. I was like, what is Labrys? Well, Labrys is the two headed ax carried by Amazons and the Greek and Roman goddesses. And they said the Future is Female was a call to war, an invocation and a spell to cast.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I'm like, well, this is crazy. And it had been brought back into popularity during Hillary's campaign, right? Yeah.

[A]

And how does this, that idea, that ideology connect to ironically, like the erasure of women? Because it does seem like there are many feminists, some feminists who don't, but many feminists who are completely on board with boys and girls, sports, men and girls, restrooms. How do those things tie together?

[B]

Well, I, you know, and again, going to the deep dive into feminism, I found out that it really isn't so much rooted in the empowerment of women as it is in a Marxist agenda to dismantle family. And so anything that's going to dismantle family, they're going to support. Like I always thought, okay, you know, feminism started really sweet and then it went sideways. No, that's not the start.

[A]

That's not the true.

[B]

No, it is not the true. I wanted it to be the true narrative. It was not. I discovered that the mother of feminist thought was a woman named Mary Wollsencraft. And she died in childbirth with Mary Shelley, who wrote Frankenstein, who is married to Percy Shelley, who believed that the serpent was the wise counselor and God was prohibitive. And it just, it just kept going from there. And it was always about a self will, self ruled, you know, we, you know, women instead of men or women independent of men. And it's very anti God woven. Like you and I believe in women who are strong and women who have a voice. But you and I do not believe in women using their voice to undermine or undercut men. And that whole idea of feminism started to say to women, if you want to be powerful, act like a man.

[A]

First sponsor for the day is Adele Natural Cosmetics. They are a family run, holistic, handcrafted cosmetic and skin care company. I've been using Adele Natural cosmetics for years now. And in my old age of 32, I think it's helped the texture of my skin a lot and reduce the appearance of fine lines and wrinkles. Wrinkles. And it's totally and completely natural. I love their oil based cleanser. It takes a little bit to get used to. It's not the sudsy feel that you might be used to with your typical face wash. But I love this because it takes off all of my makeup even after I've been in the studio all day. And it makes my face not only feel really clean, but also really moisturized. I use their moisturizing spray, their serums, their lotions every day. I love it so much, and I love that it is totally clean. I also love that they're a Christian company totally unashamed of their values. This is a great company. To get your cosmetics and your skin care from, go to Adele natural cosmetics.com use code ALI@ checkout. When you do, you will get 25 off your first order. That's Adele natural cosmetics.com code ALI. And I think a lot of people don't know what you just said about first wave feminism, second wave feminism, third wave feminism, how they're connected to gender ideology today. Because I've heard that over and over again, that really feminism in its foundations is good. I've even heard some people try to say, well, you know, Jesus was a feminist in some ways.

[B]

So tell us how Jesus was pro female. Yes, you can be pro female.

[A]

Yeah, that's what I was gonna ask you. Draw the distinction. Draw the distinction there.

[B]

Yeah. So, I mean, you and I are pro female. Yeah. But the feminist agenda is very much a push to go into the man's world and beat him. It actually is really interesting to me because the more you actually, even. Even when I was reading about Labrys, these are lesbian separatists who look like men. I'm like, if you hate men, what are you trying to look like? It didn't even make sense. But I have listened to so much of the anger and the feminism, and it's like, go into the man's world, beat him at what he is, game, behave sexually like him, divorce like him, you know, whatever that is. And what I have learned is that I believe feminists are very anti female because they tell women if they want to be powerful, they need to act like men instead of saying, there is something beautiful and powerful about acting like a woman. And so being pro female is not necessarily equated with being pro feminist. If anything, I feel like feminists are anti female and anti male. We were watching the lovely 4B movement expression right now. I got in a little bit of trouble. I only put on my story, but I was like, hey, I just want to thank you 4B women for your sack sacrifice. Because of you, there's going to be less STIs. There's. Because of you, there's going to be less unprimed pregnancies. Thank you. Thank you. I mean, it's just crazy.

[A]

And for those who don't know the 4B movement, we did an episode on it, and it stands for the Korean word for no that start with a B or the four no's it started in South Korea. It's kind of moved elsewhere. It's very small in South Korea, but it's kind of become more pervasive because of social media here, here today. And these women who are shaving their heads, they're warding off men. They're saying, no sex, no men. You know, no reproduction, obviously, and all of that, no marriage. Yeah. In response to Trump's election, saying, basically, the patriarchy got us here, and so we are repudiating any connection with men. Okay. Does this all go back to the curse after the Fall and the. The curse in which God said, look, you're gonna struggle for the usurpation of your husband's authority? Does all of this enmity that we see between man and woman and even the disagreement about what a woman is, does it go back to that?

[B]

I absolutely believe it does. You know, when. When we see the fall of mankind in the garden, what you see for the very first time is you see order turn into disorder, multiplication turn into division. You see all of a sudden a breach between the husband and the wife, between parents and children, brother to brother. I think all of the things that we see now that are broken in our world started with the fall. But here's the thing. I love Ali. It says that Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost. So I believe that when we follow Jesus, he creates a pathway where we do not fight for the position with our husband, but that we fight to be one with our husbands. That submission means that we are under assignment with our husbands. You know, we're not as a women. We're not under every man. Submission means that I'm under my husband, because together we are building a marriage, we're building a family. We work together in a ministry, so we're building a ministry together. He's ultimately the leader, but a leader is somebody who actually exercises something called dominion. I feel like under the fall, we had domination. But dominion says, I'm going to use my authority on behalf of those under my care. Whereas, you know, and then I get it. The patriarchy, they're like, patriarchy, patriarchy, you know, And I get really nervous when I hear Christian women denouncing the word patriarchy. I feel like they have forgotten he's the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That is a patriarchal line. It doesn't mean that God doesn't honor and value matriarchal, but God is a father. And so when we start to say, oh, no, he might be female, and it could be this, and we are really skating on thin ice. And just too many people are running very loose with what God has created. And again, we look in Ephesians and Ephesians says, okay, so there's not going to be a struggle if husbands love their wife as Christ loves the church, and the wife honors and respects and obeys her husband.

[A]

Second sponsor for the day is seven weeks Coffee. I love seven weeks coffee. Not only because they make great tasting, high quality, completely clean, organic, mold free, amazing coffee, but also because they donate 10% of every coffee sale to a pro life pregnancy center. So those dollars are directly supporting pregnant women who are trying to decide if they are going to choose life for their babies. These pregnancy centers do incredible work of giving these women free resources like free sonograms, prenatal vitamins, help with healthcare, even the adoption process, parenting classes. All of these come together to help this woman choose life. And seven weeks Coffee is a part of that. You should subscribe to their heartbeat club because then you get that box of coffee every month to your front door and you save 15% when you do that. Plus, with my code ally, you save an extra 10% on your order. Go to 7weekscoffee.com, use code ALLI for that discount. 7weekscoffee.com code ALLI. I know this is a little maybe of an aside from the topic of your book, but it's on what we're talking about. I saw a post that you put on Instagram a few months ago where you were talking about the struggle that you had, the power struggle at the beginning of your marriage.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Where you were in charge, you were leading, and you felt like, honestly, I can do it better. But there was also this tension inside of you that knew this is not how my marriage is supposed to be. Can you talk about that?

[B]

Yes. I was very young. I had just had my first baby. I'm working full time, My husband's working part time. And I wanted to do everything perfectly. So I am breastfeeding at home, then I'm pumping my breasts at work, and then I'm nursing my baby in my lunch hour, and then I'm making organic food. And I would ask my husband, just drop the baby off at this time. He couldn't do it. Take out the garbage. He would forget to do it. I was so stressed out, Allie. I would get in my bathtub and I would submerge myself where only my nose was above the water. And Tom would come in and be like, what are you doing? And I'm like, I'm trying to relax. And he'd say, maybe you just need to break. I'd be like, you better hope I don't break because I am holding all of this together. And he said, why don't you give it to God? I said, I don't want to give it to God. I want to give it to you. And you are not carrying it right. So I keep taking it back. So I'm like, okay, the baths aren't working. So I get in the shower and I'm trying to relax. I'm like, relax, relax. And Allie, I had not sensed the spirit of God. I had not. Like I could read the Bible, but it was like I was reading it and it just wasn't even going into my head. I don't know if you've ever been in that season where you're just so you and so not yielded. So I'm. I'm in the shower, I'm like, God, I just am so stressed. And I heard, I heard, and I, you know, I don't know how people feel about this, but it was a moment I heard the question, you don't think John's a good head of the household, do you? And I thought, I know he's not. You think you can do it better? I thought, I know I can do it better. He said, it's a yoke to you, Lisa, but it's a mantle to John. Throw it off your shoulders. And I thought, if I throw it off my shoulders, nothing is ever going to get done. And all of a sudden, Allie, all the times that I had been disrespectful and dishonoring, and I would even say emasculating of my husband came back into my mind. And what I thought was so funny in the moment was heartbreaking. And I started crying in the shower. And I thought, no wonder why we don't feel close anymore. No wonder why when we praying together, I'm thinking, why is he holding my hand so tight? Like, why doesn't he ever pray about this? I was even critical when he was pray. So I come out, I'm like, john, I am so sorry. I will quit my job tomorrow. I just want to be one. And I remember John said, lisa, you don't have to quit your job, but I do think you need to quit thinking you're the source. And he said, you can work full time and know God is your source and you'll be at peace. Or you can be a stay home mom and think you're the source and you won't. And Allie, I discovered in that moment that all my husband had ever known. I'm just going to preface this. He was the only son of an Italian mother, and he had five sisters. So it was like, my son, my son, she did everything for him. And so all he'd ever known was a mother. And I treated him like he was a child. And so I had to step back and I had to say, instead of using my strengths to say, look how smart I am, I'm going to actually speak to the man that I wanna see. And I remember he would say, what do you think we should do? I'd be like, you'll do the right thing. And in my head I was like, he's not gonna do the right thing. You better tell him. But I had to rebuild a confidence that I had in him. And when I was like, God, I don't know if I trust John. Cause you don't have to trust John. You have to trust me. And that's the beautiful thing. When we are rightly positioned with God, God watches over us. I mean, I think it's pretty. I think it's pretty amazing that God says, if you do not treat your wife right, God won't hear your prayers. I mean, that's what he said. Your joint heirs in Christ. So God watches over not just his sons, but also his daughters. And I watched my. My whole marriage change. And I watched my husband go from being a boy to a man when I stopped being his mother and I started to be his wife.

[A]

So did that look like practically holding your tongue when you wanted to criticize, Letting go of some expectations you had? Because I imagine that his behavior didn't necessarily change overnight. Maybe he still wasn't dropping off the baby at the right time. Maybe he still wasn't taking out the trash the way that you wanted him to. But I'm. I'm guessing the dynamic still changed because of the choices that you were making.

[B]

Well, he always. This is what he used to say. He said, I feel like I used to supernaturally forget to take out the trash. And he said, as soon as you did that, I started, remember? Because I remember right. We had a baby, and we didn't even have a washer and a dryer. So I'm working full time. I'm going down to the laundromat in our apartment complex. And I remember I came home from work and John, again, was working part time. I have a baby. And John's like, hey, hey, can you get something out of the filing cabinet? I thought I just walked in. Are you serious? And so you Know, the old me would have said, you get it, You've been sitting home. But I just felt, shh.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I opened up the louvered doors to where we'd kept our filing cabinet, and he'd gone out and bought a washer and dryer. And it was like he. All of a sudden, his heart turned to me when I turned back to him. And I know that, you know, I have a husband who loves God, and I know that, you know, there's women out there that have a very different situation, but, Allie, it shifted everything for me. And I had parents that were married, divorced, remarried each other, divorced again. I did not know how to love well. And I feel like there's an entire generation of young women who have been sent the message. Submission is a doormat. Submission means that you'll be dominated. The patriarchy is going to stomp you into the ground. Submission. But here's the thing. I submit to Jesus, and he doesn't stomp me into the ground. Jesus actually speaks his life and his fulfillment into me. He loves me into a place of wholeness. I love how the message, some people call it paraphrase, some call it translation, but it talks about how the husband is to love the wife. It says he washes her with the water of the Word to evoke her beauty. And I feel like that is such a beautiful picture of what Jesus does for us and what my husband does for me. And I've met your husband. He's precious. And now he's got all these girls to take care of. But, yeah, no, I feel like there's been a whole breakdown of, you know, well, we're equal. Yeah, we're equal. We're equal in value, but that doesn't mean that our roles are exactly the same.

[A]

Speak to that woman who isn't married to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A Christian man.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because they might be thinking, okay, yeah, maybe you didn't have the perfect husband, but he still loved you and loved God. Maybe they're married to someone, whether he professes to be a Christian or not, who does believe that headship and leadership means micromanaging, means demeaning, you know, doesn't actually mean service, as we read in Ephesians 5. But he thinks that it means, you know, tearing someone down. What does it look like for her?

[B]

Well, first of all, I mean, I think she has every right to go to him and say, I love you and I want to be the best wife for you. But this is what it feels like when you say. And you do those kind of things and I want to know how we can move beyond that. We just did. We just did a marriage retreat. And last night I got a text from one of the couples, and they're pastors. And John and I said, often when a couple has gone through things like what you're describing with his wife, you close your spirit off to the person. You just build these walls, and slowly and surely you wall them out. And we just had people pray that, God, if there's anything I've closed off my spirit to my husband or to my wife, you know, can you open that heart back up? Can you bring love back? But what I had to do. And again, my husband was godly, but that doesn't mean he always had his priorities right. And John used to travel a ton. And sometimes, Allie, he'd only be home three days a month. And I remember when he would come home, we got him at his worst. He was tired. It was basically a laundry drop off. And then he left again. And my teenage son was like, mom, Dad's never here. He's never. I need someone to talk to. And I was like, wow. And so I tried to say something to John, and John was like, wow. Just felt like pressure to him. So I remember I called one of my board members and I said, I don't. He's not wrong that he wants this. I don't know what to do. And he asked me, this board member was so wise. He's probably 75 now. And he said, does Addison want to get married one day? And I thought, he's 14. Like, what kind of question is that? I said, yeah, I think he does. And he said, tell him he's going to be processing his whole life with a woman and he can start now with you. And it was like, instead of my son seeing it as a loss, but I remember I was angry with my husband and I was coming to God and being like, I am so frustrated. He's never here. My boys need him. Doesn't help with this. And all I heard back when I was praying was, tell me I'm enough for you, Lisa. I was like, wait, I don't want to tell you you're enough for me, because I know what happens. That means John's not changing. So I just wouldn't say it, Allie. It was like, no, Lord, please tell me he's going to change. Please tell me he's going to turn his heart more to his kids. Please. It's going to turn his heart more towards me. It won't be all about ministry. God, please tell Me just kept hearing, tell me I'm enough for you. And so I started to surrender and say, God, you are more than enough for me. And that woman at home who feels this void with her husband, who does not know how to love her, well, she can have that same prayer and she can say, jesus, you're enough for me. And I know it's a scary thing to pray, but there's something that happens in your heart where you're not living in a, in a like famine, but you're living in an overflow of God's love and his presence. And in that place, you're gonna find out that even though you're not being poured into by your husband, you have more to pour out.

[A]

Did John end up changing?

[B]

Yes, he did. But it, I mean, here's the thing, you know, I don't know if this is different in your house. I can ask, I can ask John. I can tell God, hey, I need John to do this. And the only person God talks to me about is me. He's like, how about you do that? Yeah, he did. He did. And my heart was ready when he, I mean, he came home from a trip and he just said, I have been so selfish. I have had the wrong everything. I would have hoped that he would hear from me. He heard from God.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he said, I'm so thankful for you. I'm so thankful for the boys. And you know, Allie, I don't know if you know this. My oldest son, my youngest son and six of my grandkids live 30 seconds from me. And we work with our oldest son and our youngest son. So I feel like we lost some time there. But God has given us length of days with our children.

[A]

That's really beautiful. Preborn is a network of clinics that is doing that work that we just talked about in the last ad, helping women choose life, providing free sonograms, all kinds of resources and tools to make sure that women are taken care of both during and after pregnancy. But they need you and your donations to be able to serve these women free of charge. If you can donate to preborn just $28, that covers the cost of a life saving ultrasound. Or maybe you can only donate $2 or maybe you can donate $20,000. Whatever you can donate will help these women and save their babies. Go to preborn.comalli to donate to preborn if you're looking for a place to donate at the end of the year, this is a great place to go. Go to preborn.com alli when it comes to the roles of male and female in marriage. You've laid out really beautifully what I think you would describe as complementarianism. Like, it's, I mean, I'm kind of.

[B]

Like, I don't, I don't buy into egalitarian all the way.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I kind of sometimes feel like a complementarian and an egalitarian got married and had a baby, but I don't know what that title would be. But yes, I would say roles and a marriage, for sure. Complementarian.

[A]

Yes. And in church, we've talked about this privately, how we probably land in different places, although we agree on the principle of the authority of scripture, the difference between male and female and the different roles within the church of male and female. I think we actually agree on that. But there will be some people, I've got, you know, a big conservative reformed crowd who will say what she is a charismatic false teacher preaches to men. There may be some people who say false teacher. Maybe they, we, because we talked about this, I haven't seen this. But you said that some people have called you prosperity gospel, which was shocking.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And we, we can talk about all of those different things just in case there's someone out there who's like, wait, I might have heard that, but I don't really know. But let's start with, since we're talking about the roles of male and female, what you believe the roles of male and female are when it comes to the church, when it comes to preaching?

[B]

Yeah, I feel like it. I feel like the house, the household of the church is. I feel like it reflects. So I feel like the senior pastor, I'm the most comfortable with senior pastors being men. And I don't believe that women have no voice, but I believe they have the voice of a mother in the church. And so I am not a pastor. I do not lead a church. If I get invited to speak at a church, I don't see that as exercising authority because I'm not doing church discipline. I'm not appointing elders, I'm serving. And I'm under the authority of the pastor who asked me to come and maybe speak on marriage or speak on gender identity or, you know, and so I'm not there going, listen, I'm the boss of your world right now, so it's different. And I guess that to me there's a big difference between preaching and pastoring. So there's a difference between five fold ministry and ministering as a believer and making disciples and sharing what God has done in your life. And so that's where I've landed. So. But I know that reform was a lot more hardline on those things. And I'm not. I respect that. I don't think it's an issue of salvation.

[A]

Yeah, I would not say it's an issue of salvation either. We did talk about this, I think, when we were at dinner. When you look at 1 Timothy 2, I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man. Rather, she is to remain quiet. Obviously this is in context of the local church. How do you. What do you take that to me?

[B]

Well, it's interesting. How did that. How did that start?

[A]

I do not permit a woman.

[B]

So he doesn't say, God does not permit. Paul said, I do not. And it's interesting to me. I think he was very focused on not just that moment. He was like, here's the culture and the women are uneducated. They were not trained. And he's like, I do not permit this. And, you know, there's the Greek culture, there's the Roman culture. And again, teaching and talking, like, if we're going to be legalistic about it, women need to stop talking the second they enter the building. Like, they need to be passing notes if they have to remain silent in the church. So to me, the pulpit didn't even start until a thousand years ago. So, Paul, it was a very different situation. But again, you know, Ali, I respect other people's sensitivity to the things that the spirit. You know, the first time I ever did a Sunday morning service, I was a nervous wreck. I was sweating. I was like, am I sinning? Am I sinning? I don't want to sin. I want to honor God with all of my heart. And I had to really wrestle with that because I always just said no. I would say, no, no, no, no. Thank you for asking me, but I'm gonna take my own kids to church on Sunday morning. My husband's not there to take them. So, you know, everybody needs to find out. But I also feel like we're in an Acts 2:17 moment. In the last days, God says, I'll pour out my spirit on all flesh. And your sons and your daughters will prophesy and not. I don't believe prophesy is like, get up and you know you're gonna have a boat or whatever. I believe it's to speak under divine inspiration. And. And so I believe in the last days it looks a little different than it does in the first days.

[A]

And just to clarify where I stand, because there might be people who don't know one. Of course, I consider Lisa a sister in Christ and I wouldn't have her on if I didn't believe in her wisdom and appreciate her so much. I do not read the scripture as permitting a woman to preach before men in church. Now there are people who would expand that even more who would say that I should not even have this podcast.

[B]

Because it is preaching speaking to mixed audiences.

[A]

Yes. And so but that's what I would say. I would say that it is not just an individual preference from Paul because it is in the word of word of God. And so I wouldn't see the use of the pronoun I as discounting this as God's authority. But I certainly don't see it as a salvation issue. But I have talked about this before. I don't believe and women preaching, even if I do really agree with and appreciate the content of what is being said. And so do you consider yourself charismatic?

[B]

Yeah. So here's the thing. John and I are both born again Catholics. We both got born again through campus crusade and I just never heard the gospel. Ally.

[A]

Former Catholics, you don't consider yourself.

[B]

No. Well, like former Catholics. Yes. So we were both practicing Catholics, John practicing me, just going to confession before I got on airplanes, basically. So I had never heard the gospel, got born again through a campus Crusade. And then yes, we believe in the infilling of the Holy Spirit, but we believe that anybody that is born again is filled with the Spirit. Now it's interesting. We are two evangelical for the Pentecostal world, which would be kind of the charismatic Pentecostal world over here.

[A]

And what makes you too evangelical for the Pentecostal world?

[B]

Because we're very much about scripture and not about experiences. So there's kind of that like John has a tendency to preach on the fear of the Lord. He has a tendency to preach on forgiveness. He has a tendency to preach, I would say, the hard truth. And so they'll kind of think, oh, you guys are legalistic. So they'll say we're too legalistic. And then you come over here to reform and they'll say we're no, you.

[A]

Guys are too charismatic.

[B]

Yes. So I, you know, I've always preferred to be non denominational or say I'm spirit filled. But that's, I see you as spirit filled, you know, so I don't feel like whether you speak in tongues or not should be divisive.

[A]

Yeah, there's like a little bit of a difference in language and maybe even agreement too when it comes to how the Lord speaks to us. Now, I would not say, oh, I heard the Lord say, or I heard the Lord audibly, because there's just such an emphasis on Scripture. But that's not, that's not to say that I don't believe that the Lord can convict someone a certain way, that they don't explicitly read those words in the Bible as long as it is in agreement with scripture. Scripture. And I have heard you say, and many of my Christian friends say, I heard God say this to me.

[B]

Yeah. And I just said that about, you know, you don't think John's a good head of the household. So I would actually love you to tell me how do I position that where it's not offensive?

[A]

Oh, I don't think that you should worry about that. I wouldn't worry about positioning it in a way that is not necessarily, that is not offensive. I think that I do always, I'm always going to be a little bit. If someone says God told me, I'm, I'm going to like my ears are going to perk up the God card again. Yes, yes. And I'm not saying that this was you, but my ears are always going to perk up to make sure that whatever that person says God told them is in complete alignment with scripture. Because obviously if God says, well, God told me to sleep with my boyfriend or God told me that it was okay for me to do this even though his Bible says otherwise, then obviously that's going, that's going to be a problem. And so, yeah, there is, there is a difference there. But I've had a lot of charismatics on that, have talked about different things like speaking in tongues and deliverance. And I was raised Southern Baptist, not charismatic at all. It was like a big deal if I saw someone raise their hand in church to worship, but my mom would, that I'd be like, mom, get your hand down. What are you doing? So, like, very different background, but I Charismatics and I would say reformed people, we do agree on like some really important things. Next sponsor is good ranchers. We love good ranchers in our home. It is all American meat, craft beef, better than organic chicken. We've got their bacon, we've got their seafood. We love it all. We love their seed oil free chicken nuggets. Our kids love them. Impossible to find seed oil free chicken nuggets even in health food stores. But you can get them from good ranchers. They just make your life easier too. You're getting all American meat to your front door every month. The alley Box of good Ranchers meat has all of the stuff that is great for moms. The ground beef, the plain chicken. You've got bacon in there. You've got lots of good stuff. It shows up on dry ice at your front door. It'll save you so much time and energy. Go to goodranchers.com when you use my promo code ALLI, you get $25 off your order. Go to ranchers.com code ALLIE. I would say one criticism that reformed has is that charismatic people are more health and wealth. And you are very surprised that people have labeled you as that.

[B]

Yeah, I think they just. I think they just put you over there. Whether you. Whether they ever heard you say anything that said that. Matter of fact, I got. And again, going back to, like, how do you get in? I. You know, when the whole craziness that we talked about, the tragic baby dying, I had said, hey, God is always a healer, but you don't get to tell him how.

[A]

And they said, sometimes, oh, you're talking about. In case people don't know. Bethel Olive. We talked about that a few years ago, like, probably five years ago.

[B]

It wasn't for that long. Wow.

[A]

I think it was.

[B]

I knew it was, like, during 2020. It was during.

[A]

Okay, maybe it was last May. Well, 2020 is almost five years ago, which is crazy.

[B]

Which is cr. But I remember I said, he can heal through doctors. He can heal through, like, lifestyle changes. He can heal through natural stuff, and he can heal by taking us home. And people were furious at me. And I said, do you think that when we go to heaven, that is the first time we're completely whole? And so they're like, no, he always heals supernaturally. And I'm like, no, he doesn't always heal supernaturally, but he can. And that's, I think, where, like, John and I would be considered. Oh, no, you guys aren't. And I've had pretty strong conversations with what I would call extra biblical people. I tell you guys, you're adding. You're not. I don't believe they're evil, Allie, but I believe they can add. And so John and I, if it is not in agreement with the word of God or the spirit of the word of God. Cause, you know, there's sometimes there's things like it you can't find in the Bible, certain things, but you can find the spirit of that. And so, and even when I said about Paul, saying, I, you know, Paul was like, don't get married. I. Paul said, don't get married. So, like, I'm just saying there's things that sometimes you say, now, was this God talking or him saying, I'm very concerned that women are gonna be arrested and beaten or they don't know what they're talking about, or they're bringing in crazy Greek goddess things into. Mixing it into the. Like, we don't think we. And again, I am with you on. I have seen all sorts of abuse and misuse of scripture and experience. I've been in meetings where there's not even been one single scripture shared. And it was all an experience. I'm like, what just happened here?

[A]

And the scripture that talks about, you know, Eve was deceived first and then Adam. Like, some of the prohibition against women exercising authority, being in that position of shepherd of a flock in a church has to do with what we see in creation, what we see through the fall. Paul goes all the way back there. How do you see that reality manifesting itself today? That it does seem like women in some ways at least, are more susceptible to this kind of deception, Even the deception of gender ideology.

[B]

Well, it even says that these are the foolish, the women that are taken captive.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I. Like, I wrote about that. I mean, I am. Allie, I am with you. First of all, if we are not in the word of God, we're gonna all be subject to deception, male or female.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

We have to know the Word. And so many Christians have gotten so lazy with reading the Word. They read posts. They do not read the Word. And you and I know that you need to read the Word of God. And it rightly divides. It comes in and it separates soul from, you know, thought and intent, joint and marrow. It comes in and it rightly divides. And we live in a time period where there's a lot of things that sound right but feel wrong. And the Word of God comes in and tells you, oh, Allie, why you're uncomfortable with that is because of this. And you heard, like, you know, we've seen this. And so if women are led by their emotions, then they are going to be taken captive. But if women are led by the Holy Spirit. And to me, there's this beautiful thing here where you see, yes, Eve was deceived, but Adam knew what he was doing, and so he willingly. He willingly did that. But then we see in the New Testament that God overshadows an old woman, Elizabeth and Mary, and he brings this promise, and you see this older woman and this younger woman, and they're just prophesying to one another about Jesus, about Emmanuel, about the Prophet John the Baptist and about the promise coming and there's this beautiful symphony of God's redemption on godly women. And so I feel like God is like, hey, I'm bringing back what was lost in the garden. And it's not that he's like, oh, we don't need male or female. But I do feel if women can be led just by their feelings, I also will say, this is funny. So I'm 64, but I went through menopause when I was probably 57. And I'm gonna tell you, when you were going through menopause, there is a crazy person in your head saying things like, you need to start yelling on this airplane right now and tell him to get the jet bridge out. You need to punch your husband in the face. And I'm like, oh, no, no, no, crazy woman, you may not talk.

[A]

So it's even worse than like PMS or like when you're a teenager, PMS.

[B]

For two years straight.

[A]

Oh my gosh.

[B]

So I had to read the word, like I had to be like, you crazy woman, I shut you down. I will read the word of God. And I cannot react emotionally. I need to be, I need to have the guard rails of God's Word and the Holy Spirit.

[A]

That's really good. I even notice in myself when I go a period of time without reading the Bible as much that I find myself more susceptible to lies. Not only personal lies, of course, like my own personal temptation towards like anger or jealousy or bitterness or pride or whatever it is, but even like worldly lies that I should definitely know better. I'm like, ah, is that that big of a deal? Does that really matter? And then I kind of have to realize, oh, it's because I have been slacking in this area. It's not like you lose the Holy Spirit or anything, but you do lose your edge. Yeah, well, your mind is no longer, it's not being renewed day by day by the word of God and whatever fills you, controls you. And so if you're filling your mind with garbage, you're going to be controlled by garbage and it's going to be harder to discern. And that's absolutely true.

[B]

They got used to being entertained during.

[A]

COVID We only have a few more minutes. And one thing I wanted to make sure that we talked about and you've talked about before is body image and your dad and your relationship with your body and how your dad affected that growing up. Because that, that does have to do with everything we're talking about with being a Woman and either embracing or repudiating our identity, all of that. So. So talk to me about that.

[B]

So I was 15 years of age, and I had swam competitively from the time I was 5 till 18. But I tore my Achilles tendon and I had to sit out one year, and I ate like I was in training. And I guess I chubbed up and didn't even know it. I was just kind of like, oh. So I came in from school one day, my mom and my brother were out, and my big gruff Sicilian dad sitting there in a chair smoking a cigarette behind his newspaper, and he said, come here. I'm like, oh, gosh, I'm in trouble. I just always was scared of him. And he's like, turn around, turn around. And I turn around. He's like, oh, my gosh, your butt is huge. How much do you weigh? And I was like. I said, well, at camp I weighed. And I told him what I had weighed at camp that summer. He's like, well, you're not at camp anymore. Go back and weigh yourself right now. And so I was like, I can weigh myself. Like, I didn't even know that was a thing. And so I walked the hall of shame back to my parents bathroom and I climbed up on the scales and Allie, I was probably like 5:2, and I was 20 pounds heavier than I am now. And so I came back and I told my dad what I weighed, and he just sat me down. He said, you're fat. No boys are gonna ever like you. You're not gonna have a date. You need to take care of this. And I was like, yes, sir. And I just walked back into my bedroom and I remember I pulled on my blinds, I climbed up on the bed, I stripped off all my clothes, stood in my bra and my underwear, and I didn't have like a full length mirror, so all I could see was like a headless reflection on myself. And I hated my body. It was for the first time, I thought, that is my enemy that needs to be punished, that needs to be shamed, that needs to be taken care of. And so that night immediately started cutting back on food, started running in the snow drifts in Indiana in my swim team sweats, trying to lose the weight. And as soon as I lost weight, I started to get positive affirmation. Like, my dad was like, good, I'm glad you're losing weight. Boys started paying attention. I started. People started to say, oh, you look good. Did you lose weight? And at 15, I started to think, oh, if I'm thin, I Deserve love. If I'm thin, I'm successful. If I'm thin, I'm in control of my life. So what started at 15, though, started to accelerate because I was living in Indiana and there's the corn fed heifer, thin. And then I went out to the University of Arizona and University of Arizona has California girls. And so now all of a sudden I was like, I'm not thin anymore. And in my sorority, we all just would start to throw up after we ate, take diuretics, take laxatives. And I watched myself become captive to my own body. And I know now, looking back at 15, when my father said those things to me, it was like my soul and my body split. Now that was one voice. Ali. I didn't have social media coming after me. I've had beautiful granddaughter. I don't want her to live with the constant comparison of social media that is always saying, you're not thin enough, smart enough, pretty enough, filtered enough, whatever that not enough is. And I love that you're like, you're not enough. That's okay. I mean, because God is more than enough, you know, but so, yeah, so that became this thing. And then I was hospitalized because I had just so abused my body. And then I met Jesus. And I met Jesus and I was like, I probably need to stop getting drunk. So I transferred all my excessive drinking into excessive eating and I went back into overweight and I got engaged. I bought a, I think it was like a size 10 wedding gown in the hope that I could get down into it. And I went in to get the slip and they couldn't even zip the dress shut. And I came home and I remember I was like mad. Like, I become a Christian and now I'm fat. Like, I had done God some big favor. And I sensed, and this is so crazy because I had never heard any of this terminology and I had, I had only been saved a year. I sense the spirit saying your weight and food is an idol to you. It's what you draw your strength from and it's what you give your strength to. And he said, I want you to go on a three day fast. He said, I want you to stop dieting. So wait, you just said to diet? And he's like, no, no, a diet changes the way you look, but a fast changes the way you see. And he said, you need to find out I am your source. Not the refrigerator, not food, nothing but you. When you're sad or happy, you come to me instead of to that. And I remember I said, I Don't even know what's a healthy weight anymore. I was 57 at the time, and I wanted to weigh 103 when I was at my worst. And then I now, you know, was. I can't remember what I weighed at that time. And I remember I sensed that God is the one who made me not shape, not vogue, not glamour. And I was like, God, what do you want me to weigh? What do you want? I don't know how to be healthy anymore. And I wrote a number on a little piece of paper, and I put it in my Bible. And then I just walked and worshiped. And I stopped being abusive to my body, stopped being angry at my body, started thanking God for my body. You know, Romans 12:1 and 2 says, present your body a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God. It's really hard to present something to God if you think it's wholly unacceptable, if you think it's less than. And we worship God. It's how we worship God, with our body. I was bought with a price. My life is not my own. My body is not my own. It says, glorify God with your body. It's really hard to glorify God with something you hate. And so I just walk and thank God for my body. And, you know, at first felt really stupid, like, thank God for my body, make it thin. I was like, no, God, you wove me in my mother's womb fearfully and wonderfully. In first inside, then out. You created me to be a woman. I am thankful that I am a woman. And I just watched God heal me. It was a very short time period. And he just said, you know, I was reading my Bible, and I realized, oh, Sarah wasn't beautiful because she ran aerobics in the desert, he said, because she refused to give way to fear. And when we yield to fear as women, our whole body metabolism changes. And when we thank God and when we honor God and when we eat until we're satisfied and not until we're in pain. And when we say, why am I eating? Am I hungry? Am I bored? Am I angry? Am I hurting? What? But when we can take those things to God, it just rebalanced everything.

[A]

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[B]

Oh, I have a whole chapter on it.

[A]

Yes, yes. And because this is, you know, it is pretty unique to women and it is all about realizing who our source is, who our satisfaction is, who the identity giver is. Because just as he made our body in the womb, he designated our sex at the moment of conception.

[B]

Yeah. Which is so beautiful.

[A]

All of that is so purposeful. And so knowing whose we are changes not only how we eat, how we see our bodies, but also how we see being women.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

Well, thank you so much. And I do. I really encourage people to go out and get your book to really have a theological understanding of what it means to be a woman. Yeah, you do kind of talk about a topic that is political, but for the Christian, this is pre political. It's pre civilizational because it goes back to the first chapter of the first book of the Bible. And so thank you for being one of the only Christian women teachers who is willing to take on this subject. Your boldness is an example for us and I'm just grateful for it.

[B]

Thank you.