Ep 1121 | ‘People Were Upset I Wore Pants': Jinger Duggar Vuolo on Rejecting Bad Teaching & People-Pleasing

Summary

Podcast Summary: Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey – Ep 1121 | ‘People Were Upset I Wore Pants': Jinger Duggar Vuolo on Rejecting Bad Teaching & People-Pleasing

Host: Blaze Podcast Network
Guest: Ginger Duggar Wolo
Release Date: January 13, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 1121 of Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey, host Allie Beth Stuckey welcomes Ginger Duggar Wolo, renowned for her candid discussions on faith and personal growth. Ginger introduces her latest book, "People Pleaser: Breaking Free from the Burden of Imaginary Expectations," delving into her journey of overcoming legalism and people-pleasing tendencies rooted in her upbringing.

Personal Journey and New Beginnings

Pregnancy and Family Life

Ginger shares updates about her third pregnancy, expressing excitement and the supportive enthusiasm of her daughters, particularly her eldest, Felicity. At 24 weeks (00:55), Ginger describes her current stage of pregnancy as a "happy spot," balancing energy levels and household projects in preparation for the new addition.

Writing Amidst Motherhood

Allie draws a parallel between writing a book and having a baby, to which Ginger agrees wholeheartedly. Discussing the challenges of balancing motherhood with authorship, Ginger likens the book-writing process to childbirth—"It does feel like you have just given birth without the pain" (02:12).

Breaking Free from Legalism and People-Pleasing

Motivation Behind the Book

Ginger elaborates on her motivation for writing "People Pleaser," following her previous work on legalism and the true gospel. She reflects on the struggle with people-pleasing ingrained from her upbringing under Bill Gothard’s teachings. At 04:31, she states:

“It was taking me a lot of years to get to that place where I felt like I could actually open up and speak on that topic.”

Impact of Bill Gothard’s Teachings

Ginger provides a critical analysis of Bill Gothard’s influence, highlighting how his legalistic approach fostered a culture of performance-based faith. She explains:

“A lot of it was based on what you could do to get there. And so it wasn't based on who you truly were.” (09:18)

This environment emphasized outward appearances over genuine faith, leading many followers to live a facade rather than authentic Christian lives.

The Struggle with People-Pleasing

Fear and Legalism

Allie and Ginger discuss the prosperity gospel aspect of Gothard’s teachings, where adherence to strict rules was believed to secure divine protection and blessings. Ginger shares a pivotal moment where she prioritized her children’s safety over others’ opinions:

“I need to speak up because I care so much about them.” (04:52)

Trading Down for Relationships

Ginger recounts instances where she nearly sacrificed genuine relationships to maintain a perfect persona. For example, she almost declined hosting a friend at her home due to perceived imperfections but ultimately chose vulnerability over facade:

“We had the best conversation. She didn't even ... she was just....” (28:00)

Distinguishing Service from People-Pleasing

Healthy Service vs. People-Pleasing

Ginger differentiates between authentic Christian service and unhealthy people-pleasing. She observes that true service, inspired by Christ's example, is selfless and not driven by the desire for approval. She emphasizes:

“We need to stop asking... what can I get out of you?... We need to start loving and serving others, asking for nothing in return.” (48:32)

Biblical References

Referencing the story of Mary and Martha, Ginger illustrates the importance of prioritizing genuine relationships with Jesus over mere service:

“That time with Jesus ... she traded down for that just to be busy.” (37:53)

Overcoming People-Pleasing: Practical Steps

Transforming Motivation

Ginger suggests that overcoming people-pleasing involves shifting the focus from seeking approval to serving others as unto God. She advises:

“Serve others well, not from a toxic place of trying to gain from them what we are craving the most that we can only get from God.” (48:32)

Embracing Vulnerability

Encouraging vulnerability, Ginger shares her experiences of opening up in friendships, which led to deeper, more meaningful connections. She highlights the balance between being guarded and open:

“Finding our approval and identity in God, then we can go out to love and serve others freely from a place of overflow.” (48:32)

Conclusion and Book Promotion

As the conversation wraps up, Allie invites listeners to pre-order Ginger’s book, "People Pleaser: Breaking Free from the Burden of Imaginary Expectations," available from January 14th. Ginger expresses her gratitude for the opportunity to share her story and hopes her insights will inspire others to seek genuine, faith-driven lives free from the chains of people-pleasing.

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Notable Quotes:

• Ginger Duggar Wolo ([00:53]): “Thanks for having me, Ally. This is super fun.”
• Ginger Duggar Wolo ([02:36]): “I have to do what's right before God, not before... what my friends or my family may think I'm supposed to do.”
• Ginger Duggar Wolo ([09:18]): “...it felt like a performance in a show all the time.”
• Ginger Duggar Wolo ([48:32]): “The cure to people pleasing is people pleasing.”
• Ginger Duggar Wolo ([53:25]): “The world will hate us because they hated Christ.”

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Resources Mentioned:

• Book: People Pleaser: Breaking Free from the Burden of Imaginary Expectations by Ginger Duggar Wolo
• Good Ranchers: goodranchers.com (Use code ALI at checkout)
• Seven Weeks Coffee: 7weekscoffee.com (Use code ALI)
• Preborn: preborn.com (Use code ALI)
• Jace Medical: jace.com (Use code ALI)
• Crowd Health: joincrowdhealth.com (Use code ALI)

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Timestamp Legend:

• [00:53] – Ginger’s Greeting
• [02:36] – Motivation Behind the Book
• [04:31] – Introduction to Legalism and People-Pleasing
• [09:18] – Impact of Bill Gothard’s Teachings
• [28:00] – Trading Down for Relationships
• [37:53] – Mary and Martha Analogy
• [48:32] – Overcoming People-Pleasing
• [53:25] – World’s Reaction to Christianity

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This episode offers a profound exploration of the challenges associated with legalistic faith and the pervasive issue of people-pleasing. Ginger Duggar Wolo’s honest reflections and practical advice provide listeners with valuable insights into living a life centered on authentic faith and genuine relationships.

Transcript

[Ally]

Ginger Duggar Wolo grew up under legalism and because of that, she became a serial people pleaser. But now she's out with an amazing new book called People Pleaser Breaking Free from the Burden of Imaginary Expectations. And today she is going to talk about how she has dealt with this obsession with perfection, with what other people think about her, and how she has allowed biblical truth, the true gospel, to help her break free from that and how we can do the same. You're going to love this conversation. It's brought to you by our friends at Good ranchers. Go to good ranchers.com use code ALI at checkout this good ranchers.com code Ally Ginger, thanks so much for coming back on the show.

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

Thanks for having me, Ally. This is super fun.

[Ally]

Yes. So how are you feeling, pregnancy wise?

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

Yeah, you know, I'm feeling good. I'm 24 weeks. I'm past the nausea now and I'm kind of at that happy spot where I don't feel super huge, sweet spot. But I'm able to like have more energy and be able to get up and do projects around the house. All the things that you need to get done before the baby comes.

[Ally]

So this is number three. I'm sure everyone is so excited. Your girls are so pumped.

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

They're stoked. Yeah, especially Felicity, my oldest. She's just super excited because she's at the stage where she's just talking about helping with the baby and all of that. So we're really, really looking forward to having another one.

[Ally]

Okay. Do you feel like writing a book is kind of like having a baby?

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

Yes, 100%.

[Ally]

I felt like that. So I'm very impressed that you have a new book out while you are a mom of now three and having a real baby.

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

Yeah, it's a little wild. Like, I think you've been through the process multiple times as well. You get it. Like there's a certain sense of when you're writing it, then the editing and then when it comes out, then it's like promoting the book. All of that stuff does take a lot of time and it does feel like you have just given birth without the pain. That's the part that I'm thankful for. It's not as painful, so it's more fun.

[Ally]

It's not painful in that sense, but there is so much effort and it's a lot of vulnerability that you're putting out into the world, especially you because you're sharing your story. So you came on the show to talk about your last book, just your story. Of breaking free from legalism, understanding the true gospel. And now you've got this book about people pleasing. So tell us about it. Why did you write this book following your last one?

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

Yeah, I think that once I wrote my last book and that process of writing it, it was very tough. There were a lot of things I had to work through. And I knew for so many years that I felt. Felt like I was a people pleaser. I would see how I was so consumed with what other people thought about me and about keeping everyone on my good side. I wanted to make everyone happy, whether that was family and friends or even whenever I went to write, becoming free. Indeed, it was talking about exposing the harmful teachings I grew up under. And that was something for me that was very difficult because it took me a lot of years to get to that place where I felt like I could actually open up and speak on that topic. And as I was talking to Jeremy, we were praying about the timing, praying about when to speak up against these teachings. That really made me realize because for so many years I was so crippled by what other people were gonna think that I would not speak up. And it wasn't until it came to the point where there were so many things publicly that were happening, things that were being said, and I realized I was like, at the end of the day, I have to do what's right before God, not before what, you know, my friends or my family may think I'm supposed to do. And that was the hardest switch for me. And I think at that time I started seeing even more how I wanted to break free from these people pleasing tendencies that were so ingrained in me. I think some people may have it to like, they may have a deeper sense of that. And others, it may not come as naturally. Maybe they're more black and white, bold and like, I don't care what you think, and they'll just speak whatever they want to. But for me, it was more of a wrestling that I noticed. And so definitely writing that book helped me to begin to like, break free even more from people pleasing.

[Ally]

Here's what you say in the introduction, and I think it's really poignant and powerful. From the downfall of Bill Gothard to the horrible revelations about one of my siblings, here's one of the most important things I've learned. Live a lie. Tell me about that revelation, that declaration of not living a lie.

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

Yeah, I think that it's so easy, especially if you're. You grew up in a setting where it was performance based in many ways, like my Parents would encourage us to be authentic, to be ourselves. But at the same time, the system that we grew up under, the teachings of Bill Gothard, were very geared towards you performing, you doing well in this setting and letting other people see that you were a light to the nations, that you were shining for everyone to see that. But a lot of it was based on what you could do to get there. And so it wasn't based on who you truly were. And I think that with all of that in mind, that opening section there, I think once I realized, okay, there was stuff going down, like you said, with my brother, very publicly, and the glory of God was, I don't wanna say, like, at stake. Cause God's glory is going to be made known. But there were a lot of people who were saying a lot of things. And I felt like, okay, they were equating Christianity to the teachings of Bill Gothard or things like that. And I was like, okay, at some point I'm either gonna have to be quiet or I'm gonna have to speak up and stop acting like this is all right and it's all okay. And for me, I think as far as living a lie, like that side of it where I feel like there's so much I want to say, I don't know how to say it. Well, maybe some of that too is like my timidity. I don't want anybody on my bad side. And so I'm not gonna be willing to speak up. I'm gonna try to keep everybody happy. Like, if there's somebody who's a bully or they're doing something wrong, that was part of the people pleasing for me. I was not willing to speak up. And I remember one time in particular, there was a setting where I felt uncomfortable with my kids around someone. And I was so torn because here I am. I want to protect my kids. I want to be the mama bear that I'm supposed to be. And at the same time, I'm thinking, well, what does this person who is not a safe person to be around? What are they thinking of me? And in that moment, it's like, you just stop. And it's like, no, what am I thinking? This is ridiculous. Like, I'm getting my kids out of this situation. I'm protecting them. I'm gonna speak up because I care so much about them. That, like, jolted me. And I thought, how. How was I even sitting here, like, questioning that for two seconds? No, you have that instinct. You gotta stand up and not act like everything's okay. And I think that that was something that was really difficult for me to get to that point to where I realized, okay, I need to speak up for the vulnerable. I need to stand up for truth and not be AF of what people think.

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[Ally]

For those who aren't familiar and we don't have to rehash because we've already talked in multiple episodes about the teachings that you grew up under. But Bill Gothard, who he is and how his teachings kind of conditioned you and condition a lot of people under his teachings to make an idol of people pleasing. Can you explain that for sure?

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

Yeah. So just in a very short form. Bill Gothard was a man who came on the scene in the 60s and 70s promoting teachings that he had came up with. He said that they were the word of God. These were teachings that everyone should abide by. A lot of them were legalistic rules and things that he came up with thinking, okay, this is going to protect your family from the, from the destruction that's in the world. So he would give you his seven basic principles that you need to follow to a T. And these things are going to guarantee success for your family. So your kids are going to walk with the Lord. They're going to, like I said, be a light to the nations. That was his big thing. He would always talk about, no matter what's happening, you need to have a perfect greeting and you need to constantly have this smile, act like everything's okay. Be cheery happy all the time, because that's how you're gonna show others that you are walking with Christ. And I get it. Like, there was a certain side of that, that as believers, yes, when we're walking through trials and challenges, there are times where, you know, we, we need to have joy in the midst of sorrow, realizing that God has allowed this for a reason. But his side was more man made rules of like, okay, well, here are the steps you need to follow. So whether you're a Christian or not, you can follow these steps to show people how good you're doing. And it was. It felt like a performance in a show all the time. And so if you were having a hard day, he even had a line that he would bring. And when we visited his headquarters in Chicago, he would often bring this up. He would say, okay, we need to have the perfect greeting. So when you walk up to somebody, have a bright, cheery smile and shake their hand. And when they ask you, how are you doing? You say, I am rejoicing. So I remember a couple times going up and I. And he would like, have people do these little things. So they walk up to him and they'd say that. He'd say, how are you doing? And he'd say, I'm rejoicing, Mr. Gothard. I am rejoicing. And he said, look at your bright countenance. Wow. Now you're sharing with the world that you are doing great. And it's like. But then if you looked at the lives of his followers, sadly, they were living a lie. Half of them were not able to stop the indulgence of their flesh because it was outward things they were doing as even. Like some of them may have been believers, some of them weren't, but they were trying to find a key outside of Scripture, outside of themselves, that was not from the Lord, not asking the Lord to help them, but they would just. They would go to these things and say, okay, well, I've got to follow his steps and then I'm going to be free from this sin or I'm going to be able to impact the world around me. And so I think we saw that time and time again when Bill Gothard himself, he was accused by multiple women of sexual misconduct. And there were just so many things that came up. A lot of his followers had issues that were so deep and so awful and ton of ton of them, even the people who were at headquarters would go there, do all these ministry trips with him, and they would wear the right clothes, the navy and white that he wanted them to wear and they would keep up this facade. But then on the inside, half of them ended up leaving because they were not truly transformed. It was all outward. So the external side of that, that focus on the externals, like the Pharisees, really, I think that's what was driving his teachings. So you prop people up until you can't anymore. And then when real life hits, when temptation comes, they fall because they were not truly the Lord's or they were not truly grounded in the Word.

[Ally]

Everything was kind of outward. And there's just this aspect of prosperity gospel in it because it's, if you follow these rules, then God is almost compelled or obligated to bless you. Like if you follow the structure of protection. I remember one of the things that you talked about, kind of like the picture of the umbrella that God is protecting the man, the man is protecting the wife, protecting the children. And if you disobey, then you fall out of God's protection. So not only does it change your view of people because you're thinking, okay, if I disrupt this relationship or I make this person mad, then I'm maybe not following the rules. But then you're thinking also maybe God is not going to protect me anymore if I don't obey these rules. So I imagine that part of people pleasing is not just about idolatry of what people think, but also this fear that if I don't please all these people that God has placed in my life perfectly in accordance to what they tell me to do, then maybe God isn't pleased with me. So it becomes a very fearful and anxious existence, I imagine.

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

Yes, for sure. I think you, you nailed it there. Because that is a huge part that we often can overlook. Like, especially in the Christian setting, we realize that God is a loving heavenly father. We know that in theory, but then in practice it can often be something that we forget. And I think that that performance based mindset that we can fall into, especially when you do grow up under a setting of a teacher telling you that, okay, if you step outside of these rules, these outward standards, if it's like wearing pants or if it's listening to music with drums, even if it's the Gettys, then you're bringing the destruction upon yourself that God could smite you dead because of it. And I think that that fear can cripple you and it can put you in such a bad place and a bad view of God. And so, yeah, and even the people pleasing that plays into that, I think is there, you see it because for me, I remember just being like, okay. People would tell me, oh, ginger, you know. Cause I was so conservative on my music and on my dress. I would make sure my skirts fell, like, halfway between my, you know, my.

[Ally]

On your shin.

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

And I was like, this is how I'm supposed to dress. It's so modest. And they would, like, praise you for it. And then I felt like, oh, yes, I am doing really good. And I was trying to do keep up all the outward things until I couldn't anymore. Until I was so broken. And I wasn't saved until the age of 14. And all those years I was being praised for all the things I was doing. And, I mean, that can happen in a Christian setting where you're so thankful to be taught the gospel. I was taught the true gospel for my parents, that salvation is not by works, and that is the gift of God. But then, at the same time, I think the way that played out in my life was like, okay, I know what to do. I'm gonna do it. I was also more of a temperament. Like I said, I like to get along with people. So I am gonna try to make everybody happy. So if my parents tell me, this is how we're gonna dress, this is what we're gonna listen to, okay, I'll do that. Like, I'm not gonna buck up against it. Cause I don't wanna make you mad. And I also want your approval. And so that was something I noticed this pattern of just, like, trying to keep everyone happy around me. And it wasn't until I realized I can't do that whenever I have differences and disagreements. Whenever I stopped walking in those teachings of Bill Gothard, immediately it shifted. And I had people mad at me for living by conviction, for not. When I started wearing pants, it was hard. There were people who were very upset about that. And they felt like I was walking away from the faith for marrying somebody who was in a different theological camp than me.

[Ally]

So was this the. Because I remember when. I don't even know if. Was it paparazzi or someone who saw you, like, wearing shorts or pants, and it became a thing. Was it a controversy within your family? Or is it more people online who expected you to always dress a certain way, and when you diverted from that, they thought that you were no longer a believer?

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

Yeah, I think that there were. There were so many people who were saying things about the way I was dressing. And, like, online, mostly online, and friends and loved ones that were more concerned because they were kind of like, okay, you've had this conviction, or so we thought for all these years. And then once, shortly after I was married, then I was not following those convictions anymore. And some of them thought, okay, maybe it's Jeremy who's forcing you to wear pants or something.

[Ally]

But we're not talking about immodest, which is really important to say here, because that is what it is. You realize that, okay, that is not necessarily the biblical standard of modesty. Yes, we're supposed to be modest, but it is not a biblical dictate that women have to be wearing dresses or skirts. So that was the difference of conviction that people were worried about.

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

And this is the thing, because I went to so many conferences with ati, Bill Gotha conferences. I went to his headquarters countless times, and I say, his headquarters. He had this place, they called it headquarters. And it was his place where he had all these young, attractive people who were singles, and he would tell them, come work for me. But they had to wear these certain clothes, and so they would often wear suits and all of that. The girls would wear, like, you know, the sports jackets with, like, the. The pencil skirts. Well, a lot of them. If you look at that, it was interesting because the love, the standard of modesty, like I said, a lot of these things are external. They're like. So. They're like the letter of the law. And so as long as you are wearing it below the knee, you're modest. Well, I saw so many girls who were very immodest in that setting trying to draw attention to themselves in wrong ways, who were wearing a skirt, or maybe they were wearing a long skirt and they were doing the same, but their attitude of their heart was very immodest, very. Not probably honoring to God in the way they carried themselves. And then you'd see people in a pair of jeans, and it was like, oh, yeah, you're so modest. Like, so I think I started to realize there was a distinction there. There was a difference than I may have thought initially. And if somebody's convicted to wear skirts only, it doesn't bother me, because if that's their conviction before God, I get it. Like, you can have that conviction. But I started wanting to examine the scriptures for myself and to see what God's word actually said. And then to walk in, that was hard because, like I said, I was a people pleaser. I wanted to keep everyone happy. And so the second I wore pants or shorts, immediately I had people who were very upset about that. And online, there were constantly tabloid articles, paparazzi photos that were taken. And I would be out at the grocery store not thinking, because I'm just like, okay, I'm just gonna run out and get groceries. And then there would be headlines just blasting, saying things that were not true, even about why I was wearing that. Like, ginger does this despite her family. And I'm like, no, I don't. I'm just literally running to the grocery store. And I think a lot of those things, I realized I cannot be so consumed what the critics say about me. Cause one day they're gonna praise me, One day they're gonna hate me. They're gonna say all the false things. So I just determined to try to stay off, like, stay offline, to not look at all of those things. Because it was. It was really. For a while, it was an identity check. I realized I was like, how much am I consumed with what everyone around me thinks? And for a while, it. It, like, was so hard for me to. To wrestle with because I was like, oh, no, they're going to believe this about me. Or maybe my friends are going to read this headline, they're going to see it, and they're going to think this is true. But then at the end of the day, I was like, no, okay. Whatever I'm doing before God, that's all that matters. I want to be pleasing to God, not pleasing to everyone around me. And if they can see that I love God, I'm honoring him in this way, then he will protect that. If there's reputation that needs to be protected, God will do that. But I need to leave it to him.

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[Ally]

And that's really kind of the core of your book, is trying to please God, to honor him, to glorify him, and allowing him to take care of the rest. Because trying to please others constantly is a really heavy burden to carry. Like, I've talked to Christians who say, you know, I just don't want any enemies. And of course I feel that way. I don't want people mad at me. I don't want people to be saying mean things about me. No one wants that because there's a certain level of tension there that just doesn't feel good. But also, it's a really heavy burden to try to make sure that you don't ever have any enemies, that no one ever disagrees with you. No one is ever offended by anything you do or say. That is also a really difficult yoke to carry.

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

Yeah, I think so, for sure. Especially because, like, we realize, okay, yeah, we don't want people saying mean things. If I walked into a room every day and somebody was standing there like, okay, Ginger, this is what I hate about you. All these things. We would be beat down. Why? Because we were made for community. Community is a good thing. And like we were designed to be in the church, we were designed to have these relationships with family. And at the end of the day, we have to realize, though, okay, that has been broken because of sin. The curse of sin came, and then all of this brokenness and heartache comes. So families are often not as close as we wish they were, or there will be loved ones who betray you, and they'll say mean things about you. And at the end of the day, like you said, it's like, I want to be at a place where I'm not consumed by that. Because if my identity is first in Christ, then that is going to change everything about how I view myself. Am I just trying to get stuff out of everyone around me? Am I trying to find the approval that I'm seeking from others? Like, I'm just desperate for their approval, their opinion, like, to be their friend, maybe because they're well known or because they have a lot of money. Well, those things are all selfish and they're. They're wrong. And so we see that skewed side of community, wanting people pleasing for selfish motives. But that's where I think the beauty of the gospel is. Christ, who came to lay down his life. He was beaten, he was bruised, he was. He took the weight of our sin upon him. And. And when you think about that, like, it changes everything, because he did not come to be served, but he came to serve, to lay down his life, to give his life as a ransom for us. And when we have that perspective of like, okay, no matter what other people may say or do, I want my life to be glorifying to God. I want to be in a place where I can say, okay, no matter what I'm doing, I am going to lay down my life for others and I'm going to serve them, not expecting anything in return.

[Ally]

And that leads to. What I was thinking about is, okay, what is the difference between laying down your life for other people, putting them before you, considering their interests more important than your own, and people pleasing, which is unhealthy.

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

Yeah, I think there's such an interesting distinction there, because what I've seen, too, in my own life, there have been so many negative aspects of people pleasing that have stood out to me throughout the years. Because we do have this side of, like, okay, as Christians, we are to lay down our lives. We're to serve others around us. But I've also been in settings where it's been super interesting, like church settings, where there are the serial servers, as I would call them. These serial servers, they're people who are just doing everything in the church, and they're like in every children's play for Christmas, they're, you know, serving. They're getting the communion stuff ready. They're doing all the events and serving in nursery, cleaning the church afterwards. And it's like, wow, that's amazing. And this. There can be that side of it where those cereal servers are doing so much. Or for me, I went to the other extreme of people pleasing where I felt like I had to isolate myself. And this is. This is because, like, whenever somebody might reach out to me, and they're like, hey, Ginger, like, I'm in a tough spot. Well, for convenience sake, There were so many times I wanted to say okay to this young college girl. I wanted to tell her, like, yeah, you're gonna have to find another day to come over. Because I looked around, my house was a mess. And that was the one thing that wanted to keep me from inviting her over. Because I was, like, so ashamed of how my house looked, or my kids looked a little ragged, or maybe I did no makeup on. There's still sink full of dishes there. And I would just. Instead of inviting her over into that. It's not like my house looks like that every day. And that's part of the people pleasing. I was like, okay, well, should I invite her over? I remember one specific day where I had even a little. My little one was like an infant. And I Felt like a mess. Postpartum life. There were toys all over my living room, and it was just a rough day. Like, it was a very rough day. And I remember I got a phone call. This girl was like, can I come over? I'm really struggling. And in that moment, I froze. Like, I was so embarrassed about my house. I felt like I was a mess that day. I felt so. Even spiritually, I felt, like, down. I was like, I haven't read my Bible, probably. Probably in a couple days. Just been up nursing at night. Like, what do I have to give this girl? And at that time, I almost traded down. I almost didn't have her over.

[Ally]

And because you just wanted everything to.

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

Be perfect, I wanted to keep up this. This perfect Persona of, like, she was in our college ministry, where my husband was preaching each week. And I thought, great. She's gonna come into this mess and see Jeremy as a terrible person, because look at. Look at how I can't keep the house together. And. And in that moment, I thought about it, and I was like, okay, if I say no, I'm gonna go clean my house, and then I'll invite her over. Tomorrow or next week is really when I had time. So I was like, that's too far away. I need to say yes. So I said yes. I took, like, all of, like, five minutes because she was in the area. So, like, I took all of five minutes to, like, straighten two things. She came in, literally, like, walked across toys to get to me on the couch with my baby, and we talked. And she was in such need that day. And she was just, like, totally disarming because she was like, thank you so much for having me. I just really want to talk to you. And we had the best conversation. She didn't even. I was like, do you even notice how terrible my house looks right now? And the kids cry. You're up and down, up and down, you know, as you're talking to people. And at the end of the day, I realized in that time, I almost traded down from something that was so important just to keep up this perfect Persona of who I thought I needed to present myself as. And in that moment, though, it actually created a deeper relationship with her, because then we ended up meeting up more often to, like, talk. And I wouldn't feel bad or think twice before I had her over, because then I thought, in that mess, like, I don't want to be so consumed about what she thinks about me that I just ignore her problems. I was thinking about, okay, what is she gonna think about? Me, like, what can I get out of this? You know, instead of like, how does she need to be serv in this moment? And so I think we see those situations will come up all the time. And there's also a time to say no, which is something that I had to learn because the other side of me is I will just say no. Like, I can't do anything. I'm going to isolate myself because I just. I don't know. At times you'll feel like, yes, you just have to keep up that Persona. And so for those of us who may lean more that way, I think realizing, okay, we need to be able to say. We need to be able to say, okay, what would you have me to do, God. And that can be different for each person because in certain seasons of life, when we have too much going on, I need to be able to say no to things. Like, we can't have host a Bible study at our house this week because I need to take care of my kids and my family. Or maybe it is sacrificial the next week where I'm like, okay, I don't feel like doing this, but this is how we're gonna serve. This is how we're going to show the love of Christ to our neighbors and our friends.

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[Ally]

Tell me more about this concept of trading down.

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

Yeah, it's like Jacob and Esau. So in the Bible, where that story comes up, that's the first thing that I think about, because it's something that we've heard the story over and over about Jacob and Esau. And there's a birthright, and they have this exchange between how there was this bowl of soup, this bowl of stew, and there was a trading down for a birthright. And I think in that setting, we can see how foolish it seems that you would sacrifice your inheritance for a bowl of soup and give that up. But in our normal lives, like, every single day, I think I look at that and I've thought through it so many times recently, where I am faced every day with this reality of, like, will I trade down for what actually matters in the moment? Will I sacrifice my time and energy and will I give myself to others, or will I trade down for lesser? So, like, with that girl, or I have friends, mom friends who came over. One of her kids was eating Cheerios off my floor, dried Cheerios. She crawled under my table, grabbed dry Cheerios because I had invited her over into my messy house, and her baby was literally eating these Cheerios. And I was sitting there. I felt like my face was red. I was mortified that she was there. It was like her second time at my house. And I thought, she's gonna hate me. She is going to hate me because she's gonna think this is a terrible place to bring my kid. I can't bring her into this mess. But I almost traded down that relationship because she wanted to come over last minute, and she has a little one. She doesn't have family near me, us. And I was like, okay, yeah, you can come over and, like, hang out. But I knew that I couldn't clean up in time. And that's always the challenge, right? So I almost traded down that relationship, which ended up, she's my best friend now in la, and she just comes over all the time. We'll do projects together. Like, if my house is a wreck or if my storage room or garage that I didn't want anybody to see, she'll come over and she'll be like, let's tackle this. We have an hour before my baby needs to go down for nap.

[Ally]

That's a good friend.

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

Come over and then I'll go to her house and we'll do the same thing. But I almost traded down that genuine relationship of like, okay, I'm gonna keep up this facade of who I want you to think I am. And I'M never gonna show you my mess. I'm never gonna let you into my life. I'm not gonna tell you how I'm struggling. I'm not gonna tell you how you can pray for me. And I think, I think a lot of that can be a challenge because we realize not everyone can you open your life up to. Not everyone can you have there because there are people who will betray that trust. And at the end of the day, you have to realize, okay, I need to be willing to be vulnerable, willing to be my like, to be raw and to share who I truly am. But then at the same time, I think that there can also be a wisdom in being guarded in certain areas, realizing who is trustworthy and so that people pleasing can show up in many different ways.

[Ally]

It can go either direction.

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

It can, it can go.

[Ally]

You can be an oversharer because you feel like you constantly are trying to connect with people and make them feel better and so you're sharing so much. But it can also show up and thinking, well, I never want anyone to think anything bad about me or to be mad at me. So I'm just going to be completely.

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

Closed off and shut down 100%. Yes, for sure. And I think that I've had wrestlings both ways. Like with my friend. I remember the first time I was walking through a really difficult time and she came over and I talked to her and it was like a godsend, you know, in that moment. And I just thought, wow, like, I almost, I almost just kept that to myself. But I was so torn up inside and I needed a friend to talk to. And the Lord used those things too to like, draw us closer in friendship. Because I was willing to share, like, hey, I'm struggling. This is a hard thing. Like walking through this. I need prayer. Not keeping up this facade of like, oh, I'm the perfect Christian. I read my Bible every single day for an hour and I pray, like all these things. No, I don't have it together. I haven't read my Bible for a week. I'm so exhausted. I have an infant. I need prayer. Please help me. You know, and those types of things, I think often will bring you closer in relationships and friendships where you would never get there if you were just constantly trying to protect yourself and trying to keep up that facade. And as moms, this is another side. We have such differences in how we parent. And that was something that was hard for me to talk about because I would just kind of like, okay, we don't do sleep training or we don't do. Maybe we're not eating as healthy as we should. And I'm kind of embarrassed about that because I try to eat healthy, but. Oh, when this family comes over, I need to serve you organic food and let me put away all of the snacks that maybe. Maybe this has a little GMO in it. Let me just put that away. Cause I was so consumed with what they thought about me that I couldn't have real relationships. So here I am, trying to live out my life, and it was draining me. It was so exhausting because I was constantly just like, oh, this family does this. So I need to do this when they're here. Oh, this family does this. Okay. We need to, like, clean our home. We need to live a minimalist life, whatever it is, you know? And with moms, I feel like that can quickly become comparison, and that tension can form, and then you're not actually being real and genuine with that person. You're just creating this little facade of who you want them to think you are.

[Ally]

Mm. In the story of Mary and Martha, would you say that Martha was trading down by doing what she thought needed to be done around the house, but really she was ignoring the true opportunity.

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

There, the most important thing.

[Ally]

Yeah.

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

With Jesus.

[Ally]

Yes.

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

Jesus there, for sure. I think that that is. That is such a beautiful picture that we see in Scripture, because it's a reminder to all of us that we don't want to trade down from that. That greater thing. And I think that those relationships and that time that you can't get back, that is something. That time with Jesus that Martha just missed out on, like, she traded down for that just to be busy, just constantly going. And I think that's what we see, like, serial service. People who are just doing so much in the church. Well, you may be missing out on genuine relationships. Maybe you need to slow down. Maybe you need to actually sit in on a couple church services instead of serving every church service, because maybe your soul's suffering. Maybe you're keeping up this facade for everybody else, thinking, wow, she's serving everyone in the church. She's doing all of this. Well, maybe you need to stop. Maybe you need to soak in some of that, Go to a Bible study, connect in a small group. Because a lot of that, it will be approval of men. But then, you know, in yourself, there's a time to serve. There's a time to learn, too, and sit down and to enjoy that. So, yeah, for sure.

[Ally]

I'm realizing as you're talking that ironically, people pleasing is really More self centered that even if you think that you're just trying to make other people happy, well, I'm just serving, I'm just doing this, I'm just cleaning up my house. I'm constantly doing these things because I care so much about other people. But when I'm just examining my own heart, because I'm certainly more of the person that leans in the direction of like close, closed off. Like I won't want to connect or have people over unless things like look and sound and seem like I've got it together. And when I think about my motivations behind that, is it really because I'm so scared that that person's gonna be offended or hurt by the crumbs on the floor? No, it's really about me. It's really about. I want them to perceive me in a certain way. So like we could say that it is idolatry of people. But at the end of the day, at least for myself, when I struggle with people pleasing, it's really idolatry of self or idolatry of what I want people to think that I am. And it seems to me as you're explaining what people pleasing is, that that kind of is whether you swing in one direction or the other. Like the common motivation, it's really more about the self than it is about truly serving other people.

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

Exactly, yeah. The self centered selfishness and pride that lies there in our hearts because it is that understanding of like, okay, we want to have true community, we want to have friendships. Yes, we're made for that. But I think the expectation that we set for ourselves and that standard that's so high, we want to keep it up, it is something that can really cripple us and expose our true heart. Like you said, behind it, am I loving this person well by keeping them out or should I show the love of Christ even when I don't feel like it, Even when my house is a mess. And don't get me wrong, I love a clean house. Jeremy knows, like I will clean, clean, clean, clean, clean. Cause I cannot stand clutter. I cannot stand mess. So my house is not like I'm not just living in squalor. You might think, think that when you walk in sometimes. But it's not that we're careless, we don't care. We throw it all out. And I don't care when people come over, they're gonna walk into my mess. Well, sometimes you do need to clean up. And like if you're expecting somebody, yeah, clean up your house, put on a candle make it look pretty or essential oils, you know, so let's just say.

[Ally]

That depending on how crunchy you are.

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

Right, right. But I think with that, like, there is a certain level of realizing, okay, I'm gonna do my best. I'm gonna try to show others that I care, and then leave the rest up to God and your reputation.

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[Ally]

I was just talking to someone. Her name is Abby and she wrote a cookbook. And we had like this hospitality special that, that we hosted together. I was really learning from her and I love what she says just about the heart behind hospitality. And it sounds a lot like what you're saying, that there shouldn't be an emphasis when we're thinking about any kind of service to other people, whether it's opening our home or serving someone in another way. It's really not about the presentation or perfection. There's nothing wrong with presentation and with caring, but it really is about the heart of invitation that Jesus displays. So well in scripture and even just like the symbol of the table and dining and feasting and all of these things, it can be great to put effort behind that and to care. And maybe that's something that you're naturally good at and so you're using that excellence to serve other people and to glorify God. But she also talks about, in the very beginning of her, you know, her hospitality endeavor, she was a really bad cook and she wasn't good at it and she was embarrassed to invite people over. And yet the Lord kept on adding people to her table every week. And this was back when she was just single. And that was really convicting to me because I'm not a natural. I'm definitely not natural at that kind of stuff. So I feel like I have to.

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[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

I love having people in my house, but I'm not a good cook either.

[Ally]

Yeah. And so it, it is like almost I will defeat myself before I start. But again, it's self motivated because it's not that, oh, I'm afraid I'm. My food is going to poison those people. It's like, I don't want them to think it's not.

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

I'm not perfect gourmet.

[Ally]

Yes.

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

Not amazing in that realm.

[Ally]

So there is such a. There's such a balance between. Yeah. Putting effort in when it's appropriate and good to do so, but also letting things be. Knowing that the perfection of the presentation is not the point if you're really serving people.

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

Yeah, for sure. I think we've all been at. We've all been at places where it's like, okay, you'll go to a place I was just thinking of. I think it's a proverb and I can't even remember the full thing. I'm the worst at like references and all of that. But like, better is a dinner of herbs where love is than a stalled ox and hatred there. Just thinking of that. That's King James. Because all my things are all memorized in King James.

[Ally]

Yes.

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

But just thinking about that, like, you can have the best layout, you can have the best platter and you can be at a place that's very rough. I've been at a meal that was super fancy before and it was like people were just at each other. Well, the meal wasn't enjoyable. It was fancy, it looked nice, but you just wanted to leave. And then you go to somebody's house and they serve you like a. Let's just say like a casserole. Right. And there's all the stuff in there, you don't know what's in there. It's a little scary at times, but you eat that and it's like you're enjoying sweet fellowship and you don't think twice because the setting is different. There's love, there's excitement, and you're fellowshipping, you go away blessed. And I think that often we forget that because it does seem like you have to have it all together. But the hospitality of, like, even having college students, since we're in college ministry, like having college students in our house all the time, they'll come in and just, you know, like at unique times, like, they'll say, hey, can we stop by? It's like later at night. And sometimes we just guard that because it's family time, but other times it's like, yeah, stop by. And so many times you can't have everything all together, but you're like, hey, would you like a snack or something? And I'm like, what do I have in my cabinet? I don't even know. You pull out something. And I think those are some of the sweetest moments that we've had, is just like those on the fly. Like, okay, I'm gonna have you come and we're gonna have this time together. And they'll stay for a couple hours and chat. And it's like the sweetest thing. And we look forward to that. And you can't recreate it. You can't, like, have these moments that you plan out, but when you let them happen and you do open up your home and you do have those times where you're just. You're, you know, you're in a T shirt and shorts, no makeup, and I'm like, okay, I feel like a big mess right now, but come on over. Yeah, those things are some of the sweetest times that you'll experience.

[Ally]

So for the person who is listening or watching, they're like, okay, yeah, I struggle with people pleasing, but how do I stop? They know these ideas. I'm supposed to focus on the Lord. I'm not supposed to focus on myself and over focus on other people. Like, what are some practical steps that they can take or things that they can read or think about or do to try to rid themselves of this burden. Because it really is a heavy burden, for sure.

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

Yeah. I think it's interesting because as I looked at it, it's interesting that the solution, the key to people pleasing is people pleasing, which sounds so crazy. It's like the cure to a snake bite. Like, we have tons of Copperheads in our area. And the cure to that is the anti venom of a copperhead. That's what's going to cure your snake bite. But the same way here is we have to realize there's good people pleasing, bad people pleasing. And the negative side of that, the bad people pleasing is when we are so desperately craving somebody's what they can give to us. Like, what can I get from you? We need to stop asking that question, what can I get out of you? Are you a person of status? Do you have money for me? How are you gonna serve me at church? Like when you walk into church, like what are you thinking? Are you thinking how, what can I get out of this? Well, you're gonna live a miserable existence because you are constantly looking for others to approve of you or for them to give to you. And we need to start loving and serving others, asking for nothing in return. When we're willing to give of ourselves, of our time, our energy, our resources, and to be a listening ear for someone to invite somebody into our crumb filled house, you know then, and those are the things that we can see and say, okay, I want to seek to serve others as Christ did, laying down his life. And that will change everything. Because when we're no longer focused on what that person thinks of me, well I can serve them. And if they spit in my face because they hate how I did that, well, I want to do this as unto God, not unto them, not unto men, not like in Ephesians 6, I think verses 5 through 8 or so it's talking about not doing things with eye service as people pleasers, but doing it as unto God. I think that that will change everything because like I said, we are so consumed with what people think about us. Like I said, community is good, we were designed for it. But at the end of the day, if that's our end all if that's where we're going to live and die is upon somebody else's opinion of us, then that is sinful and that is wrong. And so the encouragement we can take is that when we do that, it will set us free to love and serve others well, not from a toxic place of trying to gain from them what we are craving the most that we can only get from God, but finding our approval and identity in God, then we can go out to love and serve others freely from a place of overflow. Enjoy not trying to like get something from them.

[Ally]

Yeah, that applies to what we do and also applies to the things we say. I think fear of man either compels us to say things that aren't true or that we don't believe, or compels us to stay silent about things that are true and that we do believe. And I think in both areas, we have to consider how Jesus was treated, how the apostles were treated, how Stephen was treated. I mean, Jesus obviously was full of grace and truth. God is love. So he was. Is the most loving. Everything he said and did, he did from a place of profound love. Stephen was also full of grace, and yet he was stoned to death after saying something that was true, doing the most loving thing he could possibly. Possibly could, which was sharing the gospel with people who didn't want to hear it because he loved them. And did they say, wow, like, you're really compelling and charismatic. Thank you for that? No, but thank you? No. They were so angry that they killed him and obviously they crucified Jesus. And I think a lot of us think that if we are nicer than God or if we are more winsome and persuasive than God and the apostles and Paul, then maybe we can be liked by the world and be accepted by the church. Maybe we will be like the first Christians who are just accepted by everyone. I mean, I fall into that, Everyone falls into that. But when you shift your perspective, like you just said to, okay, what glorifies God most in this moment, some people will love it, some people will hate it, and that doesn't matter. That frees us so much to simply live in the truth, not living a lie, as you said, and also to just speak what is true in the right moment.

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

For sure, 100%. I'm so glad you brought that up too, because that is something that we know, that the world will hate us because they hated Christ. And that is a good reminder too, because it is so easy to cower in fear, to not want to speak up, to not want to share the truth. And I think that that's just another aspect of people pleasing. I'm so glad you mentioned.

[Ally]

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so it comes out January 13th. And so by the time this comes out, you will actually be further along than 24 weeks, this episode. And I'm guessing people can get the book.

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

Yes, I believe it's January 14th, the.

[Ally]

Book comes out the 14th. But if they wanted to pre order it today, they could.

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

Yes, you can pre order it wherever books are sold. It's called People Pleaser. And so, so, yeah, and if you.

[Ally]

Go ahead and pre order it on Amazon today, then you can, you might even be able to get it tomorrow. Sometimes that happens.

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

Yes.

[Ally]

Or you can definitely get it soon and be one of the first people to read it. Well, thank you so much, Ginger. I just love your story and I love your boldness, and I know this is going to bless so many people.

[Ginger Duggar Wolo]

Thank you, Ally.