← Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey
Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey
Ep 1157 | 'We Got Death Threats': Leaving Benny Hinn's Word of Faith Movement | Guest: Costi Hinn
01:00:45
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- [00:01]
Ali Beth Stuckey
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- [00:15]
Kosti Hinn
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- [00:31]
Ali Beth Stuckey
How do we know God's will for our life? Is it just a feeling? Are we supposed to hear audibly from God? How do we discern not just between right and wrong, but between good and best? Costi Hinn is here today. He is a pastor from Arizona. He's been on the show before talking about his last book, God, Greed and the Prosperity Gospel. And now he has a new book called Walking in God's Will. It's about demystifying God's plan and purpose for your life. Y'all, this conversation is so good. Here's what I encourage you to do. If you're not driving, get out your notebook, get a pen, get out your notes app on your phone. Make sure that you are taking notes. This is all stuff you are going to want to apply to your life. You're going to want to add this book to your library. You will be referencing it for years to come, I promise you. This was awesome. I got so much out of this and I'm so excited for you to hear this discussion session. It's brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to goodranchers.com use code ALI at checkout. That's goodranchers.com code ALI Kosti. Thanks so much for taking the time to join us. I think the last time you were on was 2021.
- [01:54]
Kosti Hinn
Yeah. It's been a minute. Thanks for having me. I like your studio.
- [01:57]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Thank you so much. I know last time you were on it was virtual and gosh, that's four years ago. You've added at least a couple kids. A church, two kids. You have six kids now.
- [02:09]
Kosti Hinn
Yes.
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Ali Beth Stuckey
All two years apart. Amazing.
- [02:12]
Kosti Hinn
Yeah.
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Ali Beth Stuckey
And tell me about the church that you've planted in the past few years.
- [02:16]
Kosti Hinn
Okay. So we talked in 2021 and we're in planning mode for a church. The church's name is called Shepherd's House and we planted in the Phoenix, Arizona area and right around February 2022. And so when you were just out hanging out with all of us, that was our Actually, I didn't tell you this, but our three year anniversary that weekend, no way of the church plant. And so God's blessed it, it's been neat. And that area is full of people that are hungry for the truth and they want to grow. They need a spiritual community. And so. And then a lot of young families have moved into the Phoenix area like cities like Gilbert and Chandler. And so, yeah, it's thriving. We're thankful. Lots of work, but rewarding work.
- [02:57]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Okay, so a lot of people watching and listening, they already know your story, but there are some out there that don't. Give us a recap. Last time we talked, it was about your book, God Greed in the Prosperity Gospel, right? That's right, yeah. And so we talked a lot about your testimony, then your upbringing, but give us a summary.
- [03:13]
Kosti Hinn
All right, so grew up in sort of the center of the. What's called the Prosperity Gospel and the Word of Faith movement. You just had a friend of ours on yesterday, Melissa.
- [03:23]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Yes.
- [03:23]
Kosti Hinn
Who deals with new thought and a lot of mysticism, Joel Osteen stuff. So I was thick in the center of that, mainly because I grew up in it. My uncle, his name is Benny Hinn. And a lot of people even around here know who he is and just his legacy of 50 something years of a lot of faith healing. So I grew up in it, I worked for him and over time, and I believed it, bought the thing, took it hook, line and sinker. But over time I would ask questions just in my inner mind thinking that's not right. The Bible says this, that seems pretty crooked. Or I saw things behind the scenes that were really fake or really staged. And I thought that doesn't seem like we're supposed to do it. And when I would bring it up privately, a lot of times my family members would say there are always going to be things that aren't necessarily true or right. But our job is to give people hope and we give people faith. Or if people maybe like you or others would say things about us or criticize or like Dateline NBC, Inside Edition, CBC in Canada, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation would do hit pieces on my uncle, my father and a number of things going on with the ministries that they were involved with. We would say we're being persecuted, like Paul and like Jesus. And so I grew up with this chip on my shoulder and Baptists and like non denominational Christians or people like you who will speak truth on things, you, you are all dead Christians. You don't have the spirit, you don't have the power and the Anointing like us, and the Lord's not going to bless you, and you're just jealous of our special spiritual status. And so that was the way I grew up. Well, I end up playing baseball at Dallas Baptist University. It was a really formative experience. I had already worked for my uncle, and so I roll up on the DBU campus in a black H2 Hummer and had like a $10,000 Breitling watch. And my BAP coach, who literally is like one of the best hitting coaches in college baseball. One of the best coaches, period. But one of the best hitting coaches in all baseball anywhere, is sitting there, and at the time he drives this white Camry, super mellow guy, like, biblical simple. And he's talking about God's sovereignty. And he's saying, like, guys, don't worry about scouts and getting drafted. Proverbs 21:1 says, the heart of the king is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord. He turns it wherever he wishes. He controls kings, scouts, leaders, the world. Don't worry, God's sovereign. You just control what you can control and play hard and trust the Lord. And I always used to make fun of him in my head, like this Baptist dude or this wife Camry. Like, I know how to control God and get him to do what I want. And like, what does this guy even know? But that seed of God being sovereign and a biblical understanding of the gospel was planted. And so years later, I was a pastor at a church that wasn't very rooted in biblical teaching at the time. It was just sort of a popularity contest. Very, like, seeker driven. Get them in as long as it's cool. And one day, the team there, the pastor, a number of us, we went through this season where, like, we should probably preach the Bible more, which is really shocking. I was like, what? This won't attract people. So we start preaching through books of the Bible and we get to the Gospel of John. And I'm studying John 5 and the healing that takes place at Bethesda. And I grab this commentary that someone had given to me. I'd never used one before. And I start studying, and it just wrecks my world that Jesus heals one man out of a multitude. He heals him immediately. So there's no offering and special seed of faith. There's no white jacket getting waved, no music, no buildup, no shenanigans at all. He just heals them. And the person's not limping. I would see people limp across the stage, and my uncle or a faith healer would say, Oh, I know they're limping, but your legs would be limping and stiff too, if you had been crippled for 30 years in a wheelchair. Let's give God a hand of praise. He'll finish the healing as you believe. And you're just like, oh, yeah, sure. Like, I'd be limping too. They're probably just stiff. Yeah, read the Bible. Ain't nobody stiff. Pick up your palate and walk. They're walking. So I'm like, that's different. And then the last big kicker for me in that point of my study was the Pharisees said, who told you you can pick up your pallet and walk? The man said, well, the man who healed me did. And John records that the man didn't know who Jesus was because Jesus had slipped away. And so that messed me up because I went, how did you get your healing if you didn't know who Jesus was? Because you have to have enough faith to get healed. I used to believe that if you don't get healed, if you're like Joni Eareckson, tada. And you're still quadriplegic, if you're broke, if you're infertile, if your kids are prodigal, you just don't have enough faith. Oh, Allie, you must not be giving enough money to the church. And I see that. And I'm like, how did he have enough faith? He complained that he didn't get to the pool. Like, what in the world? So I grabbed this commentary, and it's by a pastor, I didn't really know him at the time, named John MacArthur. And in this section, he goes off about the sovereignty of Christ in healing the man. Not because he had enough faith, not because he's special, not because he said the right things. He actually complained and didn't know Jesus. But Jesus healed him as a sovereign healer who loves and initiates like, with salvation when we're dead in sin. And I started crying, lost it. And everything came flooding back from Coach Heafner talking about sovereignty and how God will do what he does. And I surrendered my life to Christ in that moment, said, I'm going to preach the true gospel. And I started studying the Bible and basically saying, what did I believe? What do I believe? What does the Bible say? And it wrecked my world in a good way. So that was a long time ago, like 13 years now almost. And since then, went to seminary. I got the privilege to be in ministry properly and biblically. And here we are.
- [09:18]
Ali Beth Stuckey
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- [10:52]
Kosti Hinn
No, he doesn't want to talk to me. He's pretty upset. Still. My family is a very tight knit, Middle Eastern cultured family where no matter what, you don't go against the family. We'd say blood is thicker than water. So I've described the way I grew up as a hybrid between the royal family and the Mafia. Royal Family because the lavish wealth and we flew on Gulfstream jets and lived just the high life, the highest life, and the Mafia because the loyalty is very enforced. And so when we left, we were cut off. No money, no safety. We got death threats and all sorts of things way back then. And over time, some family members have had the courage to. To pull away and others kind of live in the middle of like, you know, I. One family member called me one time. I was like, just know that I'm saying in the background, go, Costi, go. But I can't say anything because I don't want trouble. And so that encourages me. But yeah. And then the reason that we started for the gospel with, like, media and podcasting is because turns out a lot of people deal with this and they get gaslit and they're in hiding or they have questions and they have nowhere to go. And I'm thankful God helped Me, because I ended up with a commentary randomly. But I know there's a lot of people out there who have questions. They need biblical teaching. So it started with let's talk about the Gospel, and now it's led to God's will, healing the Holy Spirit. I'm a pastor, so I preach the whole Bible and want to help people grow in the Lord.
- [12:22]
Ali Beth Stuckey
And there was maybe it was a headline, I don't want to say a rumor. I think that he might have said something. Benny Hinn said something about repenting from some of the things that he had done in the past. Did that end up being true? Did he repent of some of the false teachings that he had propagated for a long time?
- [12:43]
Kosti Hinn
Well, not fully or not truly. And one thing that's happened over the years, it's happened since the 90s. And I did a bunch of research on this afterwards as well. Some of it I personally experienced. And then other things I realized there were wise people watching too, is he would repent throughout these intervals in history. Like in the 90s, he said, when he said that God was going to burn all homosexuals in America with fire. I don't know if you've ever.
- [13:08]
Ali Beth Stuckey
No, I don't think I knew.
- [13:09]
Kosti Hinn
So that got him on the news. He said Jesus was going to physically show up in Africa. He said all. And he would apologize later because he would just get raked over the coals by a lot of wise, faithful pastors. He apologized, said, I'll never do it again. Then he would falsely prophesy again. And then again when he repented the first time, the big one that like, hit everywhere. My aunt sadly had filed for divorce and he was losing a lot of donors and a lot of headway, and I was still around in those days, that was pretty devastating. And so he ends up repenting, kind of going back to get remarried. Then there was, and I don't take credit for this, I think there were a lot of people putting pressure. American Gospel came out, that documentary. It was right after my first first book, God Green the Prosperity Gospel. And I was having a lot of conversations behind the scenes with some of his inner circle who could talk to him, because he wouldn't talk to me and saying, like, why don't you just repent? Like, just say sorry, admit it, turn like. Like Zacchaeus, let's go the other way. And, well, what does he have to repent for? And there was a lot of that. And then a few months later, he had this public repentance and he said, I'm sick of it. Or he said, the Holy Spirit is sick of it. He's had enough. I'm like, wow. Like, without being too cheeky, just going, well, I'm glad the Holy Spirit, who is God, has finally had enough. Like, wow, he didn't have enough before.
- [14:31]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Yeah.
- [14:31]
Kosti Hinn
Now he's hit the tipping point. So he repents. They get a flood of donors, a lot of momentum back. Everyone's like, he's repented. It's all good. I'm like, okay, let's watch and see. And I remember calling a family member and saying, what's going on? Is it. Is this, like, true? Because I'll fly there, all show up, I'll drive to his front door. What? I'll be louder for his repentance than I ever was about his false teaching. And the family member in Arabic said, just shui, shui, and shway. Shui means, like, take it easy, just slow down. Shui, shui. Like, I was like, what's going on? And they said, he's going through a lot of fear right now. And his exact words were, I'm scared to meet the Lord. And he was like, I'm scared to meet God. I said, well, great. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Now just take the next step and repent of your sin. Don't just be scared. Judas had remorse, not repentance. But come on, like, don't be Judas, be Peter, be Zacchaeus. And then went back to it again, and then even just recently kind of cycled back. So when we look at the Bible and what true repentance is, Second Corinthians, chapter seven is one that I think every Christian, even people who have been hurt by someone or abused or harmed or betrayed, and they go, how do I know if they're really sorry? You go to Second Corinthians, chapter seven. And Paul uses all of these descriptive adjectives to describe the way the Corinthians were sorry, real sorry. He says it's godly sorrow, not worldly. It's not just remorse. But he says, what indignation, what zeal. In other words, they're so mad about their sin, they hate it now. And they're like, whatever it takes. I want to make this right. I want to be right with you. Paul, we're clearing our name. We're going to walk away from this. We're not going to tolerate it. And there's a picture of true repentance. It's not, hey, I'm so sorry you got your feelings hurt. Ali, I'm sorry. You're sensitive. I'm sorry you felt that way. No, it's. I'm sorry that I did this. Please forgive me, full stop. No, but. And that's really what it's been for him. And it's a play for donors and for traction because his ministry is dying and his life is. Is sort of just continuing to go in the same direction. But I'll say this to close in, that he's breathing and so there's chance for change. I pray for him often, and my hope is he'll just lay it all out there before the end.
- [16:52]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Yes. Amen. A hallmark of that movement, I'm sure, of Benny Hinn's ministry, but Word of faith prosperity gospel, is claims to hear directly from God, especially those who might call themselves apostles, like the nar New Apostolic Reformation movement. There's some within that movement that call themselves apostles, claim to hear directly from God. But a lot of the charismatic language is that that is how you know the will of God. You hear directly from Him. They might say, you know, well, Jesus said, my sheep know my voice. And they take that to mean all Christians need to be hearing audibly from God, or maybe through dreams, maybe through emotions, feelings, manifestations, different things like that. You wrote a book about demystifying God's plan. And I love that word because especially I think in the reformed crowd, because we don't take on that charismatic understanding of the revelation of God's will. It can feel mystifying. And so break that down for us. How do we hear from God? Should we be listening audibly for his voice? Should we be interpreting dreams? How do we know his will?
- [18:02]
Kosti Hinn
That's such a good question. I believe strongly that it all starts with the word of God. If you. Colossians 3:16, Saturate, let the word of God dwell within you richly. Everything that comes out of that is going to be informed and directed by God's Word. Often people will now ask me questions like, okay, so, Kosti, I know, like, I get it. God's will is God's word. God's word is God's will. I agree with you. I agree with you. But what do I do with that thought? Like, I had that thought about that person. And, like, what do you call that? Like, didn't God speak to me? Or I. I really felt like God spoke to my heart. And I think a lot of people. I would be careful, just a blanket statement, like, oh, what a bunch of mystics. I think a lot of people just don't think about the language they're using, and we could lobby for a language change. Instead of saying, I feel like God's telling me, well, why don't we just say, I have such a strong conviction? Or instead of saying, God spoke to my heart, just say, I was meditating on this verse this morning and a thought came to mind and I just have the strongest urge and desire now in light of that truth. Or I was praying and I thought of this individual and it was such a strong feeling of conviction to reach out to them. Why don't we just say that? Because you hear with your ears, you feel with your emotions, you think with your mind. We don't need to say, I feel like God spoke to me in the Bible. When God spoke, you weren't like, I feel like Yahweh might have just showed up. I don't know. Or I feel like. And so if you go to the word of God, you'll have a lot of conviction about things. And First Corinthians 2 talks about the mind of Christ. Paul says, we have the mind of Christ. Okay, so think about this. If you're filling up your heart, your mind, with the word of Christ, you now have a mind that's infiltrated in a good way by the Word of Christ, which means your actions are going to be guided by Christ. So of course you're going to think about people in a certain way. Of course you're going to be praying and someone will come to mind. Of course you're going to want to obey God. And of course you're going to have strong convictions about things because you're reading God's word. So we tend to mystify it for a couple of reasons. I've done these. Number one, we're trying to prop ourself up and make it look like we've got a real spiritual in with God. We just need to admit that's pride and humbly come to people and not say, hey, God told me. You know, God spoke to me. No, just say, yeah, I was reading the Word, and here's the conviction. Another is insecurity. We want to have a definitive plan in a way that we know that this is true. And so we psych ourself up. We're like, you know, this has got to be God. I'm pretty sure God told me that. And we convince ourselves. And then a third is manipulation. I remember time and time again to get what I wanted out of, whether it's parents or to convince authorities, anyone in my life that what I needed to do is what they should approve. I'd say, you know, I had a dream last night, God showed me and all the, whoa, like no way. Okay, we can't, we can't come against that. And so it's the ultimate gag order or filibuster moment or hostage takeover when you just say God told me. And God said. And in that I think there is a lot of pride where we go. I don't care what you say, God told me. So we go to God's word to hear from him and our thoughts, emotions and actions are going to be controlled by that. And that's a good thing.
- [21:40]
Ali Beth Stuckey
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- [24:00]
Kosti Hinn
That's a great question. Okay, I'll share personally from my own life. Briefly. When we planted the church in Arizona, it started with a move to Arizona to serve at a church for a couple of years. And they wanted to plant churches and so to be planted there, which means moving from Orange County, California. And I remember in the process, my wife kept saying, my wife Christine, you guys were just out, but Christine's like, kosti, are you sure? She's a California girl. And I kept giving her first down. Like, every time we talked, she's like, are you sure, babe? You're moving me to Phoenix, Arizona? Like, to the desert? You're sure? And I was going like, first down every time. You're that confident? I was like, yep. The reason I was confident was not because of some mystified pie in the sky vision. Not some inner cockiness like a dude, like, no, I know. And I'm like, oh, God, I hope this works out. Please, Lord, make it work. No. I had, by that time, refined a process that I would walk through. And I had learned it from older, wiser men. And I now in the book, I call it the Fundamentals for Every Fork in the Road. That's the chapter, and I call it the Seven P's for no Regret decisions. And I had gone through all of these, and I thought, yeah, it is absolutely the right decision. It was the desert, it wasn't glamorous, and I chose Phoenix. Why? The reason is I went through this process. Number one, there was a process that's my first P. Like an architect, like a builder, like a gc, a general contractor, we're going to lay out a process. We're not just going to run into it and go, yeah, we'll figure it out. What's our process? Who are we going to talk to? What is our reasoning? What are the opportunities? You got to lay it out and slow down. Number two is, have we prayed? James 1:5 says that we can ask God for wisdom. It's the ultimate, not prosperity gospel, but it is the ultimate. Ask in faith and you'll get it. Promise. It's not money. It's not a house. It's wisdom. James 1:5 says that we can ask for wisdom with faith and God will give it. And it says, actually, let the one who doubts not expect anything from God. It's as though God is saying, look, don't you dare doubt. You should have enough faith. You should believe that I'm the God that will pour out wisdom. So come to me and believe in who I am and what I can give. So have we prayed? And when you pray, it's Luke 22:42, Lord, these are two really good decisions. Not my will, but yours be done. This one seems good for these reasons. This one for this. Guide the direction and providentially open doors and make it clear. Now, let's say it's still. They still kind of are both sitting there. There's a third P. And it said, we sought wise counsel with prudence. Prudence is kind of the unsung hero nowadays. It's the ability to rationalize, slow down and think through things without emotion or your heart or materialism or ego or pride. You're just going, what should we do? And you seek wise counsel from the wise. Proverbs says, I always tell this to my kids, and they go to school every day. If you want to be wise, walk with the wise. Seek wise counsel with prudence. And then there's another one. And it's, what are our priorities? I lay out four priorities. Spiritual. It's got to be top. Too many people move places and take jobs and they think about the money first. You've got to think about the local church. You got to think about discipleship. You got to think about your soul. Biblically, Hebrews 13:17 speaks about those who oversee and care for our souls. That's what we do. So if you're out on a, you know, walk in the plank spiritually, but you've got a huge salary offer, flip those. Pick a church. Identify. Don't just buy a home because it's gorgeous. And you're like, oh, this will be the best one. Well, where's a church nearby that you can grow with? You have a community. Well, no, no, we'll figure that out. And you're now an hour and 10 minutes detached from people, but you're like, oh, but look at my house. Yeah, yeah, Magnolia level home. That's awesome. But have we thought about spiritual? And if you want to drive an hour, great. But have you thought about it? So spiritual, financial. I talk about those priorities. It is important. It is good to think about provision. Which one will be most advantageous in that way? Relational. Are you on an island? Who are your friends? Are you going to be around a Community. We're meant to be in community as Christians. That's part of God's will for us. And then fourth, I say eternal, what's the long term play here? How will this help you achieve your eternal purpose? Bobby Bowden, the famous Florida State coach, was asked once, what's your legacy? And is it the national champion? Is it the undefeated season? What is it? And all these reporters wanted to know. And he was like, I don't look at it that way. I asked the question, did I fulfill God's purpose for my life on earth? And that's a man who with all of his earthly accolades was thinking, did I achieve the eternal purpose? You could decide, should I do relatable? Should I have a studio, Should I this, Should I have a show, Should I that? Should I that? And in all of those priorities, eternal, what you're doing here, every recording, every book you write, every effort, every time you push a button, that's just. I'm like, okay, Ali Bestaki, sister, you are, you're. You want to be controversial this week. I'm thankful for it. You talk about things that I'm like, no, you're actually going to lose followers. But go, go, Ali, go. Because it's truth. You're deciding to pick something that's eternal. Those four priorities will guide you. Another quick one. Has God given us permission? Christian liberty. I think a lot of people get crippled by this.
- [29:34]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Yes, true.
- [29:34]
Kosti Hinn
I had a guy recently say, pastor, you think it's sin if I want to move to Nashville, Tennessee? I said, why you want to move to Nashville, Tennessee? He's in Arizona. He said, well, it's. I'll just be honest with you. It's not a need, it's agreed. I said, what greed is it? He said, I just want a couple acres. I want grass. I want a chicken or I want chickens and I want a cow. He said that. And I said, no, it's only sin if you don't invite me to come hang out. But he was wrestling through. He felt like it was sin to do that. And I said, let's talk through the four priorities. And he said, I've already found a church. There's a Bible study that we could plug into financially, it would be okay for our family. We just want to be in the South. And I said, it's not sin. And he was like, oh, I just. And he grew up in kind of a cult like church environment where the pastor would hold it over everyone's head. You couldn't move far away, couldn't own a Home. Look, God's given us permission for things. And so if someone says, this school will not derail me spiritually, but it will affect my future and help me get a better job, or it's got a better medical program, it's got a better nursing program, think about your spiritual priorities first and do those. And so there's a couple others, but that, that will help people, I think.
- [30:48]
Ali Beth Stuckey
No, that was incredible memory. Because even, I mean, as someone who has also written a couple books, whenever an interviewer asks me to list like five things I listed in the book, I always have a moment of panic. I'm like, can I remember the things that I came up with? So that was incredible. I don't think you listed all seven, but we did get permission. Was the second one prayer.
- [31:08]
Kosti Hinn
So what is our process?
- [31:10]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Yes.
- [31:10]
Kosti Hinn
Have we prayed? What are our priorities? Have we sought wise counsel with prudence? Has God given us permission? Have we considered the long term perspective? And I include that more than just eternal. We want to be thinking about our marriages, our kids, our families, our homes, our future. You don't just make decisions on a whim. But also, I've told people before, maybe it is wise to take that job for two years. Like, I have a friend who became a. She was from our church, traveling nurse, and it was a short term thing, but it paid really well. She was single and she said, this will actually be helpful down the road. You've had seasons where think about this, moms choose to leave the workforce, sacrifice that extra salary, or do things a certain way to do what? Consider the long term perspective. This is a short season. I'll go back to work down the road, we'll get the lake house with my salary later, but for now I'm staying home and we'll live on one income. That's long term. And then finally, do we have peace? And if you'll allow me to lay this out for folks, subjective and objective peace. We don't just say, Ali Beth, I don't care what you say. I feel peace about this. Yeah, we're back to the manipulative God told me type of thing. It's okay to feel peace. You should. But there's an objective peace that comes when you walk through a biblical process and you've got people in your life who are wise counselors. Now you can say, if I get a cancer diagnosis in this place, if a child goes prodigal, if I go through a tough time, if the market crashes, whatever, I don't need to second guess and say, well, if we would have chosen California or if we wouldn't have stayed in California, or if I would have chosen Texas. If you would have chose Florida. If you. We shoulda, coulda, woulda ourselves into anxiety and we get crippled with fear and doubt. Now the next time we go to make a decision, the devil's holding that over our head. Well, maybe this wouldn't happen if you wouldn't have this. When you've been through a process, you can say whether like a Moses in Midian or Egypt, whether like a Joshua staring at Jericho, whether like our Lord Jesus himself enduring suffering in the cross, you're never second guessing. Like Paul when you're sitting in prison with Silas in Philippi and you're like, hey. And like, well, God's really up there going, man, I didn't see that one coming, right? Shouldn't have come here. Paul's like, no, we're writing God's will. Let's sing. And they burst the doors off the prison and Lydia gets saved and the jailer. And the church at Philippi starts. And now we have the book of Philippians. You can know you're in God's will no matter what. Why? Because you've assessed your motives, you've considered all the perspectives you should. Now you have objective peace. And then I'll speak to subjective as well. In the book, I lay this out. There are times where a husband is being a dominator and he's just saying, I'm just doing this and we're going to do this. And we're all. And this is what I. I'm the head of this home and the wife doesn't have peace. No one has peace. And there's like a war going on. I'm not saying that it's not the right decision. If someone feels passionate and they're like, no, this is true, it's logical. And now you have a fight and there's conflict. Maybe you're not going about it the right way and the Holy Spirit is causing some conflict so that you can visit those issues before moving forward. Or vice versa. There's a decision in which a wife says, well, I want to do this. And the husband says, I'm just not there. And maybe she's got other motives. Or perhaps a couple together is being super materialistic. And all of a sudden, though, there's conflict in different places, or one spouse is being a little pushy. If we don't have subjective peace in our relationships, the ones that matter, those wise counselors are saying, Costi or Mark or Ali Beth you should slow down. This seems a little impulsive. Oh, you're just trying to hold me back. No, maybe that person is sent from the Lord to slow you down for the right reasons. And so I speak about the kind of peace that will flood your relationships. And I share the story of us moving to Arizona. My wife, yes. There was some trepidation of like it's surreal. It's Arizona. Are you sure? But in the end we laughed our way down the freeway in our. I was driving a giant U Haul and she was in the family car and we were having a blast. And I once in a while pull up next to her and give her a first down again and she's laughing. The kids are having memories and now no matter what, we know we're in God's will because we've been through a process and we feel peace even when it's 115 degrees in the summer. I'm going, we're in God's will. So those are some processes people should walk through.
- [35:56]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Next sponsor is Jace Medical. You don't want to be in a situation where you have a medical emergency and you don't have the life saving medications that you need. That's why you need a Jace case. In it you get life saving antibiotics should you have some kind of life threatening infection and for whatever reason, I mean natural disaster supply chain issues, you can't get to the antibiotics. The prescription that you need, you want to have this on hand. Plus you can add things on like Ivermectin, epipen, Tamiflu. Again these can all be game changers and better safe than sorry when it comes to these kinds of medical events for your family. You could also get a Jace daily case. That's a year long supply of the prescriptions that you or your family members rely on. And in a pinch it's really good knowing that you have a secret stash of this stuff to be able to rely on. And right now they've got a giveaway of their Jace go case. That's their travel case of these emergency medical supplies that you might need. You can go to Jace.com to enter the giveaway and if you check out for one of these products go to jace.com use code ALI for a discount. That's jace.com code ALLY. Gosh, I remember when Timothy wanted to move from Georgia and I did not. And I had a timeline, like a specific timeline in my head. I was, and my reasons weren't bad for wanting to stay in Georgia. I was, I was working but I was leading this Bible study of girls and I really wanted to see them graduate college. And to me, I was like, well, that's a really good reason. Obviously this is God indicating to me that we should stay. But Timothy was convicted strongly that we needed to move and he got a job elsewhere. And while I didn't initially agree and I didn't see his perspective, I totally understand what you're talking about with Christine's reaction, because I did end up agreeing with him. And we did have peace. We did have peace. It was like that was really one of the first, like, leadership tests of our marriage. And because it was obviously not sin that he wanted to move us somewhere else, I was like, okay, this isn't really exactly what I had in mind, but he feels strongly this is where we're going. I don't know if we had necessarily the specifically 7Ps in our process, but he was certainly following that, kind of like, in principle. And we did have peace. And obviously God has worked that together for our good and his glory. And I'm so thankful for that. So it's so important for people to realize that peace doesn't necessarily mean, especially you as a wife, that you are going to 100% at the onset, agree with any. Everything that your husband is proposing or whatever opportunity God is putting in front of you. It might be a process of God working that out in your heart as a means of sanctification or whatever.
- [38:51]
Kosti Hinn
Yeah. You'll never be forcing in the sense that one person is being dominated or dragged. But more so, I think God uses those processes to grow us closer to one another, to be sanctified, to be humbled, to also build trust in a marriage or those relationships. So everything. Yeah. What you're talking about is, is. Is awesome because it's so helpful for people to not just jump to conclusions and then presume motives too, and accuse. Sometimes we do that. We ascribe motives in marriage. Like, well, you're just trying to hold me back, or you're just, you're just insecure or you just want what it's like. No, hold on. There's something bigger here. And what's interesting is both of your desires, neither one was sin.
- [39:32]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Yeah.
- [39:32]
Kosti Hinn
And yours was spiritual. And his could have been and could be spiritual as a man providing and a door opens up and working that out. I think God strengthens our relationships. So my encouragement to folks is to have some sort of process in place. And maybe they cherry pick one of the peas at any given moment or work through those things, but our Relationships are going to be stronger, healthier, and our confidence won't wane. One story that comes to mind is when our kind of stand for truth coincided with a cancer diagnosis. Our son Timothy was diagnosed with a rare form of cancer. And it's why I wrote the book More Than a Healer. Because I know people are out there going like, well, Jesus is a healer. I mean, but he's so much more. And there's so many aspects to what he does that minister to our hearts. And there was a family member that said, are you sure? Are you a thousand percent sure? You're telling me that you have a son who gets diagnosed with a rare form of cancer at three months old and no part of you believes that's God judging him and your home? Because you touched the Lord's anointed. You came against Uncle Benny. You spoke against this. You're. You're sure? Like, absolutely sure, bro. Because that's like, man. And it almost seems like God, instead of touching, because I was. It was prophesied that God was gonna, like, kill me and things were gonna happen to me. And because of what I had done and they. One person suggested even more than touching me, the Lord's chosen to strike my son. So now I have to suffer by watching him. And I remember there, this calm came over me because there can be, like, a righteous anger.
- [41:15]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Yes.
- [41:15]
Kosti Hinn
And like, you've touched the kid now and you're going after that, and it's so wrong and it's spiritually abusive. But this calm flooded over me and I said, I am absolutely sure. And they looked at me dumbfounded, like they couldn't believe it. That peace came from the fact that I knew I was on the side of truth. I knew I was siding with the true gospel. I knew that my decisions were in line with scripture. Never been perfect, haven't done it all right. Probably came out a little hot and burned some bridges. I blew the whole city apart when I did it and was like, we're going to get them all. And I was like, maybe I should be a little more gracious and open up conversation. But that's the way I came out. Hot. I call it cage stage. You've heard of it. It's like you should be caged for a little while, lest you just hurt people for the first year or two of your conversion. But I knew I had followed scripture and so I didn't have to second guess. And I know there's people out there listening or watching who. You made that move. You took that job. You went to that school and you walked through a biblical process and then something bad happened. Maybe you got injured, maybe you've been wrestling with infertility. Maybe the house didn't happen like you thought it would and it foreclosed. Or maybe you missed and you thought, man, if I wouldn't have done this, I wouldn't have. Let me tell you, if you go through a process, you don't have to be crippled by fear, paralysis, by analysis, shame, perfectionism. Nope. Now Romans 8:28 applies. God will cause all things to work together for the good of those who love him and are called according to his purpose. He will work it out for his good. You just take the next step of obedience. And if you've done that, then even come a cancer diagnosis. You don't have to second guess if you're in God's will.
- [42:58]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Yeah. You know, even those of us who are not in the prosperity gospel camp, it can be so easy to look at bad things that happen and think, wow, is this the result of me making the wrong decision and I didn't realize it? I mean, prosperity gospel says the same thing. If you sow the seed of faith, tithe, do this, whatever, then God will reward you for your obedience. He will punish you for your disobedience. And I think all of us can kind of think that without realizing it that, wow, are these bad circumstances a punishment for something that I didn't realize? Or conversely, am I getting these blessings because I'm doing something right? And I'm sure, like growing up in the ministry that you were raised, I'm sure that was a mentality of, well, if we were really sinning, would God be blessing us with this gulf stream? Would we have this many people following us? Of course. God is on our side because he's given us all these things. It's easy for us on a smaller scale to also kind of get stuck in that mentality.
- [44:00]
Kosti Hinn
Yeah, I call it prosperity gospel light or the diet version is I don't believe like Joel Osteen. And I'm not this following this crazy Benny Hinn guy. And I don't know, I ain't driving Bentleys and, and believing that. But we have this mentality that if I obey God and do all the right things, then God will give me this. And it's, it works in first world America because generally speaking, if you work hard and you're a good person, dependable hard work, life can get better fiscally every year and things could go well for you and pretty soon you get in the pattern of like, well, I do all things the right way. And so that's why God's blessing me. And I think it's a slippery slope, because pretty soon, when trial does hit, and we know it will, suffering and trials are a part of the Christian life. When it does, we get disillusioned. If we've attached our blessings to just our obedience, then we tended by default. Prosperity Gospel Light Version Even though we say we're not osteen, we've attached our trials then to disobedience. Now God must be mad, and I must not be doing enough. And that really cripples people. There's a passage in the Psalms, Psalm 37:4, and I used to think that it meant, if I delight myself in the Lord, he's going to give me whatever I want. The passage is, delight yourself in the Lord, and He will give you the desires of your heart. So he used to say, I'm going to delight myself in the Lord, and He's going to give me all my blessings. Give me whatever I want. Years later, I'm reading that passage and it strikes me biblically, proper hermeneutics, which is the process of interpretation. I look at it and I saw it with new eyes, and I thought, delight yourself in the Lord. So you're delighting in the Lord, and He will give you the desires of your heart, meaning you are delighting yourself in the Lord, and He will put in your heart the desires he wants for you. And so if you read it, the way that it's properly written and conveyed biblically is delight yourselves in the Lord, and He will place in you. He'll give you the desires that are in your heart, meaning he put them there. Too many people are delighting in other things. But if you delight yourself in the Lord, your steps will be ordered. And when you have the desire to take the step of faith in some area, when you have the desire to reach out to that person, when you have the desire to take a sacrificial step in some other way, whatever that looks like. And good desires, the desire for a job, the desire for a certain career, the desire for a family, if you can't necessarily have your own children biologically, the desire to adopt, the desire to minister to the poor, the desire to reach out to the hurting person, or start a Bible study for young women, if you're delighting in the Lord, he will have put those desires in you. And so the main question people should ask, should ask about God's will is, am I delighting in the Lord? Is Jesus, my everything. Do I have eyes for him? Am I focused on him? If you are, I'm convinced biblically, everything else flows into the wake of that. Like a boat just pulls it in behind eyes on Jesus.
- [47:07]
Ali Beth Stuckey
It really gets simple when you think about your sole purpose in life is to enjoy God. And if you're enjoying God, you're obeying him. If you're obeying him, you're glorifying him. That doesn't mean that everything is easy, but it does simplify it. Last sponsor for the day is Patriot Mobile. Patriot Mobile is America's only Christian conservative wireless provider. They offer a way to vote with your wallet. We think about voting America first every four years, but it's really every time we spend money, we have the opportunity to put our values first and to put our country first. And so switching to Patriot Mobile is just another way to do that. They provide exceptional cell phone service, but they are also calling their customers action to defend our rights and freedom. So you get outstanding nationwide coverage. They operate on all three major networks. If you have cell phone service today, you can get cell phone service with Patriot Mobile without compromising. They have a 100% US based customer support team that makes switching really easy. Just go to patriot mobile.com ally patriot mobile.com Ali I love what you said about objective versus subjective peace. And I never heard it exactly like that, but it reminds me, I remember I had a conversation with a friend, gosh, maybe in college or maybe in high school. And we were talking about, you know, this relationship with this guy that we both knew it just, it wasn't good. And you know, she was someone who professed to be a Christian. And you know, maybe she really was at the time. But I remember she told me, well, I just don't feel, feel convicted about that. So it's like I don't feel convicted about that. And we've probably all been there, just that callousness. If I don't feel it in my heart, then this must not be bad. And I was thinking about the verse in Philippians 4, the peace that God will give us, the peace that surpasses understanding. But I wonder if sometimes we misinterpret that to mean the peace that defies understanding, that's a good word. The peace that denies understanding and is denying the wisdom of the Lord. And so if it's a peace apart from what the word of God says, then it's not a peace that comes from God. It's actually like a callousness. And there's a difference in Peace and having Holy Spirit filled assurance and not being able to feel conviction altogether because your heart is just hard. So there's, there's a difference there. The piece that surpasses understanding, it's going even beyond what we read in God's word. Right? It's not contradicting it.
- [49:55]
Kosti Hinn
No. And it's beyond your feelings. So when you have a piece that surpasses all understanding, it would be as though you're going through something. You and Timothy and I come along and I'm going, you guys, how are you so calm? How are you so full of joy right now? How are you so stable? And you say, kosti, our anxiousness was given over to the Lord. Our hearts are full of gratitude. We know we're in his will, we're delighting in him. And we've just been overwhelmed with this sense of peace, even in the midst of all that's going on. And I'm going, but what about this? What about that? What about this? What about this? What about this? And you say, we're leaving all those in the Lord's capable hands and trusting him. But what we're going to do is control what we can and that's our next step of obedience. And so we're trusting him, we're in prayer, and we're staying low and submitted before him, knowing that he's the Sovereign over all sovereigns and so we trust Him. Well, yeah, but Timothy, Ali Beth, if you don't make moves, and if you don't this, and if you don't, that's how so much of the world operates. I've got to force it, I've got to make it happen. And people lose their minds because they're not rooted in the Lord Jesus Christ. And so that passage in Philippians 4, where it starts in verse 6 and goes all the way to verse 9, when it talks about what you dwell on, dwell on what is about, whatever is right, true, noble, lovely, of good repute. Why? Because what you think about what you dwell on will consume you. And what you're consumed by will control you. And that's where your destination is going to lead to. And so I think you're spot on. You don't say, well, I just don't feel convicted about that. You may not feel convicted about something because you are not, not full of God's word. It's impossible to be convicted by something that you don't know.
- [51:40]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Yeah.
- [51:41]
Kosti Hinn
And so it's important to find that elsewhere, but it is to be a witness. When we're confident about God's will. It's not to be cocky. Say, yeah, we know what we're doing. Look at us. It's to say, hey, I'm confident, and I have such peace in the will of God because I'm rooted in his word. Did you know you could have that, too? And that was the goal of the book. Demystify God's plan for your life and make decisions with confidence. The reason I wrote it, there were two book ideas. I walked into the office of my co planter, Brett McIntosh, one of our pastors and the man who leads our prayer ministry. His name is Tom at the church. And I kind of bolt into the office. I interrupt their meeting. Before I wrote the book, I said, hey, I got two book ideas with Zondervan. This one and this one. And they both immediately were like, the book on God's will. The book on God's will. And I said, why? And Tom said, literally every week, it's like clockwork. People have questions about God's will. They're nervous, they're scared. They wonder, our church could use this. And Brett was like, literally, dude, all the people we counsel so much that we deal with is, how do we make great decisions? And how do I not second guess everything? How do I have peace in the midst of good versus good, great versus great? What seems to be not sin? And what seems to be not sin? What do I do? And my pastoral heart is just going, what if there's a resource? And what if there's just biblical guidance that could help people say, we feel biblical peace? And someone goes, I want that, and we can point them to the Lord.
- [53:11]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Yeah. Gosh, I remember two things growing up that helped demystify God's will for me. And just. This is just a reminder. When you're giving your kids a Christian education, all those times you're sending them to awanas in church camp, and maybe moms and dads are thinking, is this really doing anything? There are these, you know, crazy teenagers who don't want to talk whatever it is. I talk to lots of parents with kids in all different directions spiritually. But just know again, like we always say, those are seeds planted that will blossom in eternity. And I still remember little things told to me throughout my upbringing. And I remember this time at church camp, this whatever pastor they brought, I don't even remember his name, but I remember him telling me that it was wrong to open up your Bible and pray that God would show you the answer just by, like, moving your finger around. Which I guess was something that we were all doing. I'm sure that sounds like a very middle school thing to do, but that was how we were trying to interpret God's will that God is going to mysteriously show me. And I just remember him saying, the Bible is organized like it is for a reason.
- [54:17]
Kosti Hinn
Come on.
- [54:18]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Right? Read it like that. And that actually took a huge burden off of me that I didn't have to be this. You know, basically this sorcerer using this as, like, a Magic 8 ball or like a crystal ball. And then the second thing. And I would be so curious to hear what you think about this as we close out, because I'm not sure it's really the most theologically true thing. However, I do think it, again, relieved this burden of anxiety for me in making decisions. Junior year Bible teacher, he said this, and he was kind of one to just say something to shock you, but he said, God doesn't care what college you go to. I know. Interesting, right? He said, as long as you. But he was kind of saying what you're saying. Go through this process of making the decision, neither one is sin. Both will be fine in light of, like, the sovereignty of God. I don't know if the initial statement was correct, but I understand what he was trying to say.
- [55:13]
Kosti Hinn
Was he a professor?
- [55:14]
Ali Beth Stuckey
He was. No, he. This was junior year of high school. Okay. So no, but I think he was, like, in seminary. He was an interesting guy.
- [55:21]
Kosti Hinn
He's a teacher.
- [55:22]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Yes, he's a teacher. This is a teacher. So. But those two things kind of helped me also, like, brought me to the understanding of the sovereignty of God, but in less formal and sophisticated way, helped me kind of understand that this is not something that I'm searching out through my own emotions and feelings, because that is a really big burden for people to carry. And the sovereignty of God, people see that as scary. It's actually. Actually a huge relief for us. Right?
- [55:50]
Kosti Hinn
It's comfort. It's a pillow you lay your head on at night. And I go, I can sleep because you are in control. I'm so glad I'm not. Okay. Two. Two things as we land the plane. So we used to. I call it now the Bible thumb game. And I've done this in the pulpit at our church. Like, church, this is not how you hear from God. Lord, what do you want me to hear from you today on?
- [56:11]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Boom.
- [56:12]
Kosti Hinn
You open it up, and it's like the curses of your forefather. You're like, yeah, not that. Let's try again. They open it up again. It's Like I will bless you and pour out it. You're like, that's the word from the Lord for me today. Oh, this is so Bible thumb game, not the way to do it. But second, I would say our teacher friend was being provocative on purpose to get you guys to think. That's why I asked, is he a Prof. Or a teacher? And these seminary guys, so typically when guys have a good handle on this and gals, the way they'll come at the thing is go, did you know that God, God doesn't necessarily. I would qualify a bit, you know that God's not as interested in which house you buy, as interested in other things. What are those? Or did you know that God doesn't necessarily care which state you move to? There's other things that are higher on his priority list, like say more. Well, he cares about your heart. He cares about your head, your mind, the mind of Christ. He cares about the process. He cares about your priorities. He wants you, not necessarily what you're after. He wants you. And in that I would say my premise in the book is, and not in some legalistic false formula or false promises. If you do these things, if you walk through this and really by do, I mean get an understanding of the gospel, who Jesus is, what God's word says, who you are, and then what God's word has for you by way of wisdom, then you can make whatever decision is in front of you and trust that you're walking in his will. The final chapter, it's like an epilogue basically on the book is encouragement for the road ahead. And I basically tell people you're not going to get it right all the time. It's not going to be perfect. It's not always going to be pretty. You're going to make mistakes. But guess what, if you walk through that road or you take the directions and it's a biblical direction, then you're going to be able to even course correct by going back to God's word. So I would say if people walk closely with the word of God, then yeah, I believe strongly that he will bless you in your going there. And he'll bless you in your going there. He'll bless you in your staying, he'll bless you in your changing. If you follow a biblical process, I genuine believe you could have stayed and finished the girls Bible study till they're senior and done it. You could have moved here. I believe that I could have moved different places. I believe there are other options. And yet we chose to do something and we see it now. And go, I can't imagine my life any other way. God wants your heart most of all. He wants your eyes on him. And in that. Yeah. Make your decision and he'll work it out.
- [58:57]
Ali Beth Stuckey
And I love what you said earlier, that God is not sitting out there saying, gosh, I. You know, I didn't see that coming. Now the whole plan has unraveled, messed it up.
- [59:05]
Kosti Hinn
Yeah.
- [59:05]
Ali Beth Stuckey
I remember a friend telling me that I got a bad grade on a final in college, and she said, do you really think this grade is going to be the thing that thwarts God's will for your life? Like, thanks. Okay. I don't feel bad anymore.
- [59:17]
Kosti Hinn
Relatable would have never happened because you failed.
- [59:20]
Ali Beth Stuckey
I know. No, I didn't fail.
- [59:22]
Kosti Hinn
I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
- [59:23]
Ali Beth Stuckey
It's just mediocre. But it. I mean, it's beautiful to think of that. And this really. This book really does. It's a perfect word, demystify God's will. Because God is not a God of confusion. He's a God of peace. And he is so graciously revealed himself to us. Yes, through the Holy Spirit, who's our helper, through Jesus Christ, Word made flesh, but also through the word of God. And, gosh, he's gone through. He's gone to a lot of lengths to make sure that we can know.
- [59:48]
Kosti Hinn
Who he is and what's clear and easy. The question is, are we eager or are we lazy?
- [59:53]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Yeah.
- [59:54]
Kosti Hinn
And are we passionate to pursue everything else that will tangibly give us what we want? Or have we paused and said, God, what do you want?
- [60:02]
Ali Beth Stuckey
And what have you laid out that's so good? Okay. Walking in God's will. Demystify God's plan for your life and make decisions with confidence. Kosti, thank you so much.
- [60:10]
Kosti Hinn
Ali Beth, thank you. Sat.