← Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey
Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey
Ep 1211 | Israel: What Should Christians Think? And an Announcement
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- [00:01]
Allie Beth Stuckey
How should Christians think about Israel? We are getting into all of this on today's episode of Relatable. It's brought to you by our friends at Good ranchers. Go to good ranchers.com use code ally at checkout. That's good ranchers.com code ally hey guys. Welcome to Relatable. Happy Thursday. Hope everyone is having a wonderful week so far. We are back in studio after a tour of Southern California. My family and I have been bouncing around that part of the state for the past two and a half weeks. It was such a lovely time. I know California is crazy policy wise, price wise. I mean, it really is. But I've said this before, the Christian conservatives in California, not just in Southern California like in Orange county, but in other parts of the state as well. Different parts of la, also Central California, South. Some of the most solid people that I've ever met. I truly feel refreshed when I go to California. Not only because it is just such a beautiful state. I mean the weather, the beaches, it's just gorgeous. But also because I love the people there. A lot of the people, not all the people. I mean, I'm a Southern girl. I was raised in Texas. I went to college in the Southeast. So I love Southern culture still. Still. I just love the decorum and the traditions, the culture that the south has. But second to that, I would say California. I mean, if it weren't for our family not being in California and some of the just absolutely crazy policies there, I think CR and I would actually consider moving there. That's how much we love it. But it is great to be home. It is great to be back in studio. I got to interview some incredible guests while I was there in Southern California. Some of those guests you have already seen on the show, but some of those guests you have not seen yet. I mean, really just amazing in person conversations. I hope that you've enjoyed the ones that you've already gotten to see and you will definitely enjoy the ones that we have coming up. Also at the end of this episode, speaking of the show and interviews, I've got an announcement about the show. It's a good announcement, but it is a significant change to to the show that will be occurring next week that I will fill you in on and explain a little bit at the end of this episode. So make sure you stay tuned for that. Because we've been traveling, I just haven't been able to really give my thoughts on the news. And so I went back and forth on what am I going to talk about my first day back in the studio and I decided that I would talk about the possibility of World War 3, but not really the geopolitical aspect of it. Of course that's very important. But the theological debate that is raging specifically on the right. It's interesting when we have these kind of intra political or intra right conversations, theological conversations. My nexus that I like to occupy is the intersection of theology and politics and culture. So as we talk about Israel and Iran and prophecy and the end times, I wanted to try to answer a simple question. And that is, what is Israel? What is Israel? There are so many different aspects of this conversation that I won't be able to get into today. Like all of the different end times positions and how Israel plays into all of that and which people believe. What a long time ago, like OG relatable days, I think back in 2019 maybe I did a whole episode about the end, explained each of the main positions and what I believe about those positions. I've also done a two part discussion with Jeff Durbin, who is a post millennialist. I am a post Trib pre millennialist, which is like the traditional pre millennial position. I've explained all of that on a previous episode. So we will link it. You can go back and listen to that. I also encourage you. I will be reading from this book during this episode, but I encourage you. If you have not gotten Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem, you can go to the part where he explains all of the positions about the end times, also known as eschatology, the study or knowledge of the end times, and you can see what each position holds in detail. But within that conversation is the question about Israel. What should Christians think about Israel? What does the Bible have to say about Israel? And just like almost anything else, there are disagreements. And so I will go over the various positions of what Bible believing, true authentic gospel preaching Christians believe about this. Because it's not a salvation disagreement that Christians have, but it is significant and it can actually determine what we think about geopolitics. And that really matters before we get into the theological aspect of it. If you have been kind of unplugged from the news and you're just plugging back in, let me just give you a very quick and brief overview of the Iran Israel conflict that is going on. So on June 13, 2025, amidst the ongoing Israel Palestine conflict, Israel launched a surprise attack on Iran, targeting nuclear and military sites to disrupt its nuclear program and eliminate key leaders. Iran retaliated with missile barrages on Israeli cities, causing damage and injuries over the next days. But both sides escalated, with Israel striking Iran's energy sector and military facilities while Iran fired missiles and drones. So I was in California while this was happening. When the initial attack happened. I was actually on my way with C.R. to the fox News bureau in Los Angeles. And I was going to talk about Alex Padilla, who J.D. vance refers to as Jose Padilla, and everything that happened that day. And they told me 10 minutes before I was about to get there, hey, actually, can you come on an hour before and can you talk about what just happened between Israel and Iran? And I was like, I will try. And so I, you know, it was fun. I brought my perspective to that, tried to bring it back to the position that President Trump is in and that America is in, since I am primarily concerned about the United States. President Trump posted this on June 22 talking about US's intervention. He said, we have completed our very successful attack on the three nuclear sites in Iran, including Fordeau and. And Natanz and Asfahan. I am so sorry if I butchered those words. All planes are now outside of Iran airspace. A full payload of bombs was dropped on the primary site. All planes are safely on their way. Congratulations to our great American warriors. Initially, Trump acted like he had no idea what Israel was doing, didn't get involved. Secretary Rubio was like, you know, support Israel, but it sounded kind of like he was distancing America from what Israel was doing. And so at first, when Israel initially launched their attacks, it was very unclear whether America was going to get involved. A lot of people on the right again, disagreeing about what to do there. But as I just read, Geo Trump decided, yes, America is going to get involved. And then on June 23, he said, Congratulations to everyone. This is what he posted on Truth Social in all caps. He said, it has been fully agreed by and between Israel and Iran there will be a complete and total cease fire in approximately six hours from now. So they were supposed to halt all hostilities between the two countries after Trump says that he helped negotiate this cease fire. But then very quickly after that, I mean, there was a reason I wasn't really posting about this at all. But even after it seemed like it was resolved per President Trump's post, I didn't post about it because honestly, when I read that, I was like, I don't believe that. It's not that I don't believe Trump. I believe that Trump was being sincere there, but I just don't believe that that's. That. That the war is over. They Decided to just end it. I mean, these countries have been going at it for thousands of years and suddenly we're just going to stop because Trump said, I just didn't believe it. And so, yes, there were mutual accusations of violations. Shortly after the cease fire was announced on June 23, Israel claimed that Iran launched missiles. Iran alleged that Israeli drone strike the agreement. And then Trump had a moment that a lot of people are quoting because he dropped another bomb called an F bomb. And I won't play that word. Of course, we don't do that. Unrelatable. But just so you know, the moment that people are talking about, one, I'm.
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Donald Trump
Not happy with Israel. You know, when I say, okay, now you have 12 hours, you don't go out in the first hour, just drop everything you have on them. So I'm not happy with them. I'm not happy with Iran either. But I'm really unhappy if Israel is going out this morning because the one rocket that didn't land, that was shot perhaps by mistake, that didn't land, I'm not happy about that. You know what? We basically have two countries that have been fighting so long and so hard that they don't know what the they're doing. Do you understand that?
- [09:42]
Allie Beth Stuckey
So I think Trump was genuinely upset by that. I mean, he could have felt humiliated that he had publicly said, look, I negotiated this. I have helped broker peace here. And then Israel, he says, violated that agreement and made it seem like he didn't have any power and that Trump wasn't actually successful in that. And I'm sure he was genuinely upset. Not only I'm not saying that it was all about personal ego for Donald Trump. I think anyone would have been like, what the heck? From a place of personal embarrassment, perhaps, but also just anger. Because I do think that Trump wants peace. I don't think that he wants America to be involved in this. Maybe he sees it as necessary for a variety of reasons, not just to protect Israel, but because Iran, as a lot of people have said, is the head of the snake. They fund all kinds of terrorist regimes that threaten the United States as well. They've been chanting death to America, death to Israel for many decades. And so maybe Trump sees this as necessary, but all of this has caused a big disagreement within maga. You've got the more pro interventionist part of maga, you've got the anti interventionist part of maga, you've got the part of maga. And it doesn't neatly necessarily lay over the categories that I just explained, but you've got a part of Maga that is more pro Israel. You've got a part of Maga that is less pro Israel. You've got a part of that part of Maga that is completely anti Israel. But underneath all of this is really a theological debate. And that was highlighted in an interview between Tucker Carlson and Ted Cruz when Tucker who is, I would say, pretty anti interventionist, especially when it comes to Israel, and then Ted Cruz, who is very pro intervening on Israel's behalf. They got into a theological conversation which we will get into in just a second. But first, let me pause. Let me tell you that in the midst of all of the craziness happening in the world, the potential of World War 3, that God still reigns, that this is my father's world. And that is what we sang acapella last year, 4,000 Christian women together at Share the Arrows led by Grammy Award winning artist Francesca Battistelli. I mean, that moment, when I remember it, when I watch videos of that, it's so still sends chills up my spine, you guys. This year by God's grace is going to be even more powerful. There is not another lineup like this out there for women's conferences, which is why this is literally it's only year two. This is one of the biggest women's conferences in existence, certainly the biggest conservative women's conference, but one of the biggest Christian women's conference conferences in existence. That's Share the Arrows. It's happening again this year, October 11th, Dallas, Texas. Elisa Childers is coming back. We've got my friend Ginger Duggar Volo. We've got a motherhood panel with Hillary Morgan Ferrer and Abby Halberstad. We've got a biblical health and wellness panel with Sean Shauna Holman, Taylor Dukes. I will be speaking. The powerful Katie Faust will also be speaking. The worship with Francesca is going to be amazing. So in the midst of this craziness, if you need stability, if you need clarity, if you need courage, if you need community, then you need to join us at Share the Arrows. You can go to sharethe arrows.com get your ticket today. I'll give you a little tip. All of the speakers, their first name and 15 gets you 15% off your ticket. You just have to press unlock on Ticketmaster, enter that promo code and then the prices will show you 15 off. I'm probably not supposed to tell you that here, but I'm going to. That doesn't include the VIP tickets. Packages are awesome. Make sure you check that out. Come by yourself, come with friends, come with family. It's going to be amazing. Go to share the arrows dot com. Okay, Ted versus Tucker. Here's the moment that went viral on XOT2.
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Ted Cruz
Growing up in Sunday school, I was taught from the Bible, those who bless Israel will be blessed, and those who curse Israel will be cursed. And from my perspective, I want to be on the blessing side of things that's in the Bible. As a Christian, I believe that.
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Tucker Carlson
Where is that?
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Ted Cruz
I can find it to you. I don't have the scripture off the tip of my. You pull out the phone and use the.
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Tucker Carlson
It's in Genesis. But. So you're quoting a Bible phrase. You don't have context for it. You don't know where in the Bible it is. But that's like your theology. I'm confused.
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Ted Cruz
Where does my support for Israel come from? Number one, because biblically, we are commanded to support Israel.
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Tucker Carlson
But number two, hold on, hold on. You're a senator and now you're throwing out theology. And I am a Christian and I am allowed to weigh in on this. We are commanded as Christians to support the government of Israel.
- [14:35]
Ted Cruz
We are commanded to support Israel. And we're.
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Tucker Carlson
What does that mean?
- [14:37]
Ted Cruz
Israel? We're told those who bless Israel will be blessed.
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Tucker Carlson
But what. Hold on. Define Israel.
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Allie Beth Stuckey
This is important.
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Tucker Carlson
Are you kidding? This is a majority Christian country.
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Ted Cruz
Define Israel. Do you not know what Israel is? He's talking about the nation of Israel. Yet nations exist. And he's discussing a nation. A nation was the people of Israel is the nation. They are the descendants of Abraham.
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Tucker Carlson
Is that the same as the country run by Benjamin Netanyahu right now?
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Ted Cruz
Yes.
- [15:00]
Allie Beth Stuckey
Okay. Cruz also said the reason that I'm the leading defender of Israel is because Israel is our strongest ally in the Middle east and incredibly troubled part of the world. And supporting Israel benefits America. Okay, so here are some questions that I think that we should ask. We learned in 2020 the vital importance of defining our terms. So some questions here. What does the verse actually mean that Cruz cited? What does bless me? What does curse mean? Have these things manifested itself in America allying with Israel? And what is Israel? What does that actually mean? Before we get into that, I just want to play you another clip that was going around. Some questions that I have about it. Here is Tammy Bruce, who is the spokesperson for the State Department. The pride of being able to be here and do work that facilitates making things better for people and in the greatest country on earth next to Israel. Okay, so that is the spokesperson for the United States State Department. I really like Tammy Bruce. I don't know if she misspoke there. Maybe she just meant that Israel and America are equally the best countries in the world. I'm still uncomfortable with that view. I think that we should believe those of us in America and those who are representing America. I think we should be very comfortable and confident saying that America is the greatest country on earth. And I did find that strange. My question is, are Christians in particular obligated to think that way? Are Christians obligated to hold the view that Ted Cruz has? Are Christians obligated to hold the view that Tammy Bruce has? Well, in order to answer these questions, we have to look into the two main Christian viewpoints on Israel. And that is the distinct view and the unified view. Now that's what I'm calling them. They're not really officially referred to as that, but I will explain why I'm using that terminology. But I actually think it's the clearest and most charitable way to describe the two main views about Israel within the church. So the distinct view and the unified view. Both of these views are held by true, genuine, gospel believing, Bible believing Christians. But the disagreement really matters and has really big implications on what you think about the end times, what you think about the future, and what you think about geopolitics today. So let me first explain the distinct view. So the distinct view is held by a lot of evangelicals, particularly Southern Baptist. I grew up Southern Baptist. I grew up believing in, in this kind of thinking about Israel probably without even realizing it. But as I've examined my views over, I've realized, okay, I was definitely raised with this distinct view. Other denominations and other kinds of Christians definitely can hold to this distinct view. But it is very popular within Southern Baptist, the Southern Baptist world, and I'll explain why. But this distinct view is the view that Israel and the church are two distinct entities. That the ethnically Jewish people are still God's chosen people, that God has a special plan for Israel's salvation. This group also tends to hold the belief that the modern day geographical Israel is the Israel referenced in Scripture, is the nation that all nations must bless to be blessed and is the centerpiece of the fulfillment of end times prophecy. So that is the decision. Distinct view. The unified view is held by many Christians as well many Presbyterians, many Reformed Baptists. I consider myself Reformed Baptist and other Christians in other denominations. Now this view is the view that the church is the fulfillment of God's Old Testament prophecies and promises that there is no special reserved plan or time for ethnic Israel salvation, they would reject the idea that ethnically Jewish people are in any way God's special chosen people today. God's chosen people, they would assert, are Christians and anyone who believes in Christ for salvation. Whether you are ethnically Jewish or whether you are Gentile, you are part of God's chosen people if you have been saved by grace through faith in Christ. Many, though not all in this unified camp would reject the idea that the current nation of Israel is the Israel referenced in End Times prophecy. In fact, many in this camp are what we call post millennial. So they believe that the prophecies about tribulation that talk about Israel in the Old Testament in particular even in the New Testament, have already occurred. They occurred a very long time ago, they would assert. Again, you can go back to the previous conversations and episodes that I've done on End Times to get more details on that. Now I have views that many would probably say fall into both of these camps in different ways, and after I explain these positions more thoroughly, I will tell you what I mean by that. So first we'll get into the distinct view, but I gotta pause and tell you about our first sponsor before we get into it, and that is Interior Delights. I love Interior Delights. This is a company that is owned by Style Sarah. She is a Christian business owner in the state of Colorado and she loved designing her own home, making her own home beautiful so much that she decided to help other people do the same with really classic, beautiful and affordable pieces. She doesn't just have a store with amazing products that you're going to love for your home, but on this website she also tells you how to use them in different seasons of the year, how to mix and match the products that you're buying on her website so that you can make the most use out of them, and so you can use them in lots of different ways to make your home feel complete and refreshed and beautiful. And it is just a great way to be able to steward your home and to be hospitable. Make people feel comfortable. Make people just be able to breathe a sigh of relief and appreciation when they walk into a room or walk into your home. It's not necessary for our homes to be perfect, to have an Instagram aesthetic every second of every day. In fact, if you have little kids, that's impossible. But there are lots of little things that we can do to make the spaces that we live in cultivated and beautiful. And Interior Delights can help you do that. Go to InteriorDelights.net ally When you use my code ally, you get 10% off your first purchase of any of her products. Go to Interior Delights.net ally so this distinct view is held by who many call dispensationalists. Now maybe a lot of you have heard this word dispensationalist, but you're like, okay, I don't really know what that means. That was me for a long time, even though I grew up not really realizing it at the time, but grew up under dispensationalism. I didn't know what was meant by that. But this refers to how people in this camp, this dispensation, distinct view camp, organized the Bible and organized human history into dispensations, which just means a system or an ordering. Biblical dispensations refer to the eras of time in which God related to man in different ways and still relates to man in different ways. A dispensation, it comes from the Greek word oikonomia, meaning stewardship or administration. So this is a dispensary, distinct period in which God administers his plan for humanity in a specific way. So there are seven dispensations that dispensationalists say that we see throughout Scripture. So innocence, that's Genesis 1:1 through Genesis 3:7, conscience, Genesis 3:8 through 8:22. So that would be post fall human government that starts with the Noah covenant, Genesis 9:1 through Genesis 11:32, the promise, Genesis 12:1 through Exodus 19:25, law, Exodus 20:1 through Acts 2:4. So the establishment of the church, grace, Acts 2:4 through Revelation 20:3, and the millennial kingdom, Revelation 20:4 through through 6. So dispensationalists, they categorize history into these seven dispensations, and they observe a pattern in how God deals with man through these dispensations. They would break it down in four ways. They would say we see responsibility, we see human failure, we see judgment from God, and then we seek grace to move on. And so dispensationalists believe that we are currently in an age of grace, that we are in the church age in which God is focusing on gathering people into the church. Dispensationalists believe that in a future age, God will focus on gathering in the Jewish people, specifically after believers are raptured before the tribulation. Okay, are we tracking? I know it's, it's a lot. They believe that Christ will establish his millennial kingdom with Jerusalem as the capital and Israel as the, the leading nation. Now this group to be as I want to be, as Charitable and as steel manny as possible for both camps. This group does not deny that salvation is by Jesus alone. They believe that Jews, just like everyone else, must trust in Jesus as the true Messiah. But they believe that Jewish people will always be distinct. They won't join the church. They are and always will be God's chosen people that he will ultimately redeem through Christ. There are some Old Testament prophecies this group believes refers to the future salvation of Israel. Isaiah 59:20 and a redeemer will come to Zion to those in Jacob who turn from transgression, declares the Lord. They would also cite Zechariah 12:10 and I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and please for mercy, so that when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him as one weeps over a firstborn. This group sees the current conflict between Israel and Iran to be a fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy. They look to Ezekiel 38 for example. Or they might look to Jeremiah 49 and identify the nations referenced in those passages as modern day Iran, Russia, Sudan, Turkey and Libya attacking an unsuspecting Israel. Now in the New Testament, dispensationalists or everyone in this distinct view camp would cite Romans 11:25 through 29, where God through Paul says this. Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery. Brothers, A partial hardening has come upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written, the deliverer will come from Zion. He will banish ungodliness from Jacob, and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins. As regards the Gospel, they're enemies for your sake, but as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers, for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Okay, so that is some of the biblical support that they would cite for their position. There are lots and lots of passages that, that they would cite for that. Let me give you some historical context about this position because I think it's important. This is not a position that the church fathers held. I can't say that no church father held this position because I don't know for sure. But it certainly wasn't common dispensational theology. Specifically this idea that the different administrations of God's dealings with men can be broken down into these seven kinds of dispensations. And that really didn't emerge until the 19th century. A lot of religious things happened in the 19th century. A man by the name of John Nelson Darby, he was an Anglo Irish clergyman. He originated dispensationalism after breaking from the Church of Ireland following his own spiritual crisis. His vision of history, or his division of history rather, wasn't necessarily this like, stark theological departure from every other Christian. What made his perspective so important is the literalism with which he interpreted scripture and specifically Old Testament and New Testament prophecy that led to this strict separation in his view of Israel and the church. He went on speaking tours throughout the United States states in the late 19th century. His view was further popularized by C.I. scofield. C.I. scofield is responsible for the Scofield Reference Bible, which was highly influential because of the exhaustive notes, the references that were included. His annotated Bible, the Scofield Reference Bible embedded his dispensationalist belief that he had learned from Darby into the study notes, making this theology not only accessible for a lot of people, but extremely widespread, popularized. It was one of the first study Bibles and certainly one of the most thorough study Bibles that people had. And it benefited a lot of people in that it opened people's eyes to all of the different intellectual viewpoints that were possible within the Bible and that there was an intellectual richness to Scripture. The cross references and the Scofield Reference Bible were so thorough that I really. I really do believe that it is responsible for a lot of the good positive intellectual questioning and digging into Scripture that occurred in the 20th century. Scofield had a disciple named Lewis Sperry Schaeffer, and he founded the Dallas Theological Seminary, which became the kind of go to place for dispensationalist scholarship and clergy training. And this is where a lot of Southern Baptists have gotten their training. And so that's kind of where you see the connection there. Now, I do just want to say, because there's a conspiracy theory that Scofield and his reference Bible was funded by Israel or funded by the Jews or funded by the Rothschild family. There is no tangible proof of that whatsoever. Like, there is no evidence that we can see that I've seen. You are welcome to send it to me. There is no evidence that Scofield or Darby, who created dispensationalism, the separation of the church in Israel, or he popularized that idea, rather, there is no evidence that they were influenced by some kind of like, unbiblical special affinity or affiliation with Israel and the Jewish people. I think they genuinely studied the Bible and came to this conclusion, whether you agree with them or not. Now, I will agree with the assertion that this had a big effect on how evangelicals see Israel. Some might say, yeah, because it is biblical. And so it was a good influence. And some might say, well, it's unbiblical, so it was a bad influence. And we will get to the other side of this debate, which is the unified view, in just a second. Let me go ahead and pause and tell you about our next sponsor, though. It's Fellowship Home Loans. If you want to work with Christians who are doing things by the book, like the word of God, especially when it comes to making big purchases, big decisions like, I don't know, a house, you want to work with Fellowship Home Loans. It is so important to me to work with as many people as possible that totally align with my values. I think that Christians work better, they work harder, they work with more integrity. So if I'm going to buy a home, if I need a home loan, I want to work with someone that is standing on the same principles that I have. That's what you're going to get with fellowship home loans. Plus right now they're offering a $500 credit closing. 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God's promise to see saved through the last Adam, Jesus Christ is announced as early as Genesis 3:15. This is that verse I will put in between. This is when God is explaining his curse to Adam and Eve. I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He shall bruise your head and you shall bruise his heel. He is talking about Christ. They emphasize the grand and glorious unity in Scripture, how it exalts Christ as. As Savior. They would say from Genesis all the way to revelation. Gentile believers are explicitly called, quote, fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God. And Christ is identified as Abraham's ultimate offspring, making all believers Abraham's spiritual descendant. So this is actually the historic view. This is the view that was held by most church fathers. For example, like Augustine, he viewed the church as fulfillment, fulfilling God's promises to Israel, laying the groundwork for this covenantal ideas. What's known as covenantal theology, though it wasn't systematically articulated at that point. Puritan theologians at the Westminster assembly codified covenant theology in the Westminster Confession of Faith. Covenant theology therefore uses the covenant of works, God's dealing with Adam requiring perfect obedience, which was broken by sin, and the covenant of grace, God's God's promise of salvation through Christ's work, which is received by faith to unify God's plan linking Israel and the church as one people. So there are so many parts of covenant theology that we won't be able to get to, not just when it comes to the end times, but also when it comes to baptism. Most people that subscribe to covenant theology also believe in infant baptism as a sign of the new covenant. But we don't have time to get into all of that. We have to focus on what this camp, this unified camp, many of which subscribe to covenant theology, but not all believe about Israel. So I articulated in summary what they believe, and here are the texts that they would use to support that. And I actually have a lot to say on this because Wayne Grudem, in that book that I held up earlier, Systematic Theology, has a lot to say on it, and I just think he explains it so well. So Romans 9, 1:13. Paul grieves that many Israelites are unsaved to see, despite their covenant privileges, despite having the prophecies, despite having the Old Testament, he says they have the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the law, temple worship, the promises. But God's children are ultimately identified by God's promise, not ethnicity, not bloodline. But he says in verses six through eight, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham, because they are his offspring. But through Isaac shall your offspring be be named. This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise. Who are counted as offspring. He says in the rest of chapter 9 and verses 30 through 33. What shall we say then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is a righteousness, that is by fai, but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone as it is written. Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame. Okay, let me read you some of the what Wayne Grudem says about this position, because he explains it really well. He says we should notice that the many New Testament verses that understand the Church is the new Israel or new people of God. We should notice that the New Testament does that. The fact that Christ loved the Church and gave Himself up for her, Ephesians 5:25 would suggest this. Moreover, this present church age, which has brought the salvation of many millions of Christians in the church, is not an interruption in God's plan, but a continuation of his plan expressed throughout the Old Testament, to call a people to himself. In Romans 2, Paul says, For he is not a real Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical. He is a Jew who is one inwardly. The real circumcision is a matter of the heart, spiritual and not literal. I mean, that's pretty plain as day. He also says in Romans 4 the father of all who believe without being circumcised, and likewise the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised, but also follow the example of the faith which our Father Abraham had. When he is referencing Abraham. So Abraham is the father to all people of God, not through his bloodline, but because of faith. Wayne Grudem goes on to say that those who truly believe in Christ are now the ones who have the privilege of being called my people by the lord. That's Romans 9:25. He goes on to explain in the book of ephesians and Ephesians 2 specifically, far from thinking of the church as a separate group from the Jewish people, Paul writes to Gentile believers at Ephesus, telling them that they were formerly alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, but that now they have been brought near by the blood of Christ. And when the Gentiles were brought into the church, Jews and Gentiles were united into one new body. Paul says that God has made us both one and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two. So making peace and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, I.e. ephesians 2, 14, 16. He goes on to write how the Old Testament prophecies also point to this unity between the church and Israel, all who can only be saved by faith in Jesus Christ. So that is the covenantal view or that is the unified view. So they would not say that the ethnically Jewish people are God's chosen people today. They would not necessarily say that the geographical location of Israel represents God's chosen nation. They would point to the various passages and even more passages than the one ones I just listed to say no. God's covenant people, his chosen people are, are all of those Jew or gentile who have believed in the name of the Lord, who have believed in Jesus for salvation. There's no future special plan for them. Israel today is not necessarily the epicenter of the end times. That is not what Genesis is referencing when God is saying whoever blesses you will be blessed. Whoever curses you will be cursed. Because God wasn't talking about an ethnic bloodline, he wasn't talking about a geographical location. This position would say, the unified position would say we're talking about God's covenant people that he has ransomed for himself through Christ. This covenantal view, this is from Ligonier would say that the covenant with Abraham prefigures the gospel and is fulfilled in Christ. Quote, salvation is given to us not because of anything we have done or could do or ever will do, but purely on the basis of what God has done. And we receive the benefits of what God has done simply by trusting him, as Abraham did. Okay, so what do I make of all of that? What, what do I think about modern day Israel and how Christians should think about this conflict, how Christians should think about the Jewish people. Based on everything we just read, it probably was clear to you which position I think is more biblical. And I'll just say I, I think that the unified, the fulfillment theology, the covenant theology view of Israel, that the church is the fulfillment of Israel, is the more biblical view, it's the historic view. And I do believe that it is more supported by scripture. So for those of you out there who think I'm some like dispensationalist Schofield propagandized shill, you're wrong. I'm not a dispensationalist I haven't been a dispensationalist for a long time. I've never read the Scofield Study Bible. I don't think my family even owns one of those. Wouldn't be bad if they did. But although I was probably raised with some kind of idea of dispensationalism, that's not the view I believe Scripture supports of the end times or of Israel. However, I am also not in the camp that I see so prevalently that because Israel is not the distinct entity that dispensationalists say that it is, that we should feel some sort of special malice towards them. That's what I see in a lot of this unified camp, like a special hatred towards Israel and the Jewish people that I also think is just like unhinged and doesn't make any sense. So I'm going to give you five points of what I believe about all of this based on what we just read and talked about in just a second. Let me pause and tell you about our next sponsor and that is Freedom Project Academy. All right. I don't have to tell you that education has gone woke that so many of our educational institutions are just completely captured by evil demonic progressive ideology. They don't want your kids to think, they don't want them to work hard. They don't want them to learn the truth about America, the truth about morality. They just want them to be these, these angry social justice warriors that will affirm all of progressive ideology. 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God's chosen people are God's people through Christ in Christ alone Acts 4:12 and there is salvation in no one else. For there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved. All Christians believe that. Number two, there may be a large scale in gathering of ethnic Jewish people. That is yet to come. This will, I believe, come through no extraordinary means, but through evangelism and belief in the Gospel of Jesus. I do not believe, as I've articulated on past episodes, that Christians will be caught up in a rapture pre tribulation and then come back down. I don't believe that. Yes, Christians who are pre millennialists do believe in a rapture, but I don't believe that we are going to be raptured before the tribulation and that that is the time that the Jewish people will come to know Jesus. That's just not what I see supported in Scripture. And so there may be a large scale in gathering conversion of ethnic Jews one day. That comes through belief in the Gospel Gospel. But I don't believe that it's at the on the same timeline as dispensationalists would say that it is. Number three, I believe that the fulfillment of God's promises are found in Jesus and his church. Again, this is the historic belief within the church. It's the one that I hold. Number four, there is no Christian theological obligation to support the nation of Israel militarily or politically. But I do think it makes good biblical sense to support the nation of Israel in certain ways. And I've got six, seven sub points on this. A the nation of Israel right now belonged to the Jewish people first. It was significant to Judaism first. They were there thousands of years before Islam came into the world. B It is the only homeland for a global minority, the Jewish people who have been the victims of relentless persecution and attempts at extermination. C It is the home of Christian historic sites that Israel has thus far protected and stewarded very well. D Islam is a unique civilizational threat and we should support perhaps the only other country in the world with the moral clarity to say that Islamists aren't oppressed, they are the oppressor. E Of the list of designated terrorist organizations, 99% literally are Muslim. Mass migration of the Muslim world into the Western world has made every western country less safe. More violent crime, more sexual crime, more terrorism, more poverty, more chaos that is baked in to Islamic ideology. That is not true of Jewish belief systems and of Jewish migration. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. In this case, Israel is an enemy to Islamic name extremists and so is America. F Israel is a democracy that shares many of the same Western values that we have. Not all, not in totality, but many. Just ask yourself, if all of the Middle east were like Israel, would that be better or worse? If all of the Middle east were like Iran or Afghanistan or Gaza, would that be better or worse? Now this is g. Theologically, we should yearn for Jewish people to be saved, just as Paul does in Romans 9. We share half of their Bible. Our Savior is Jewish. Our Savior is the fulfillment of Jewish prophecy, of Jewish law, of Jewish ceremonies and celebrations. We should have, I believe, an affinity for the Jewish people that makes us zealous for their salvation. Those are all my sub points on point four. Now last point, point five. None of this means that we have to support intervention in their wars. There are arguments both ways, but we are not obligated to do so. Every government has the moral responsibility, I think, the biblical obligation to put the well being, the prosperity security of their country first. Israel does that really well for their country. That's one thing I love about Israel, is that it is is Israel first all the way. I want America to be as America first, as Israel is Israel first. I actually want that for every country. I want every country to put its interests first, even at the expense of the interests of other countries. I believe that's why God created governments. I don't think that means we have to be completely isolationist. I think that there could be an obligation in some cases for intervention when it makes sense for us and our allies, as long as it is in the interests of the only constituents that our government is really supposed to serve. But I do believe that we are not and should not feel responsible to fight all of Israel's wars simply because they are an ally. Also, none of this means that we cannot criticize Israel, the government of Israel, Israel's policies. I think a lot of people believe that we can't criticize Israel's policies without being antisemitic. And I think that's stupid. Israel's values are liberal in many ways. Pro lgbtq, for example. Not all of Israel. It's a country just like any other country. There are a variety of beliefs, but it is hugely secular and has a lot of secular beliefs in place. Like we can't act like the geographical nation of Israel and everyone who lives there is abiding by the Old Testament law that was put in place for the Jewish people by God. And so it's okay to criticize the nation of Israel. The policies that are put in place, I think it's okay to criticize if you want to Even some of the practices that have been put in place by Israel in this conflict between Palestine. Now, I do think, and this is just kind of me riffing, like, I do think it's strange how many people are pretending like October 7th didn't happen. Like, oh, I can't believe I saw someone say, unfortunately, Israel has chosen after October 7th to fight fire with fire. As opposed to what? Like, fight fire with tickling? Like, what were they supposed to do now? Do I want civilians to die? Do I want people to starve? Absolutely not. I don't want innocent people to suffer at all. War is really ugly and it's really bad, and we should be praying for peace and hoping for peace. But Israel retaliated after a surprise attack when their people were raped and tortured and murdered and kidnapped. I mean, Hamas killed babies in captivity, and we're just acting like that's not horrifying. Israel is defending itself. I'm not saying again that we have to defend every mode of defense that they have put in place. But let's not also forget what started this entire conflict in 2023. And so I don't know if that gives you the clarity that you're looking for. This is such a layered and complicated topic. I will not pretend to know every single facet of geopolitics. I will not pretend to understand every single nook and cranny of the conflict that is going on, or every aspect of American politics, or every aspect of how our government decides our priorities and our interests, or even every aspect of the theological debate in this. But I've been thinking about this and reading about this for a long time and praying about this as well, because I want to be wise and how I think about it and how I talk about it. And I hope that I have given you some clarity or maybe at least just a jumping off point for you to read your Bible, read Romans 9, read Hebrews 11, get Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology. There are some good podcasts out there. I'm not going to recommend one or the other because either they're dispensationalist or covenant. And I really want you to explore scripture for yourself, get you an ESV study Bible. I would say it's pretty neutral and objective and you can read the commentary to help you gain understanding without feeling like you are being persuaded in one direction. But I'm not scared of the truth. Truth is like a lion. All you have to do is unleash it. And so please send me your comments. Send me Your thoughts, Send me your Bible verses, send me your position. As long as we are all believing in the inerrant authority of the word of God. I love these discussions and these debates. I'm sure that I sufficiently made plenty of people mad in this, which was not my goal. It was just to try to explain as best as I could the nuance in all of this. All right, so got a quick announcement but let me tell you about our last sponsor before we do that and that is Patriot Mobile. Patriot Mobile is America's only Christian conservative wireless provider. They put faith first. They stand on the same principles that you and I do. They are defending the first and second amendments, the sanctity of life. They support our veterans and first responders. Unfortunately, a lot of these wireless providers are actually sending your money to left wing organizations that are trying to destroy everything that we believe in. You don't have to worry about that. With Patriot Mobile they make switching super easy. They've got a 100 customer service, 100America based, a customer service team. Plus you can get a great deal right now with my Code Ali you get a whole month of service with Patriot Mobile when you use my code Ali go to patriot mobile.com ally code ali patriot mobile.com alicodeali all right y' all. So we have been doing relatable since March of 2018. I can't believe that it's been over seven years. It has been what I call like my professional baby. I have written two books, I've given lots of speeches. I have share the arrows which I love so much. But so much work and thought and heart and effort has been put into relatable not just by me, but by my team, by Timothy. There has been so much prayer and consideration that has gone into every episode and I certainly haven't always is gotten it right and everything that I've said. But I am a Christian, a wife, a mom, navigating the craziness of our culture with as much clarity and courage as God is willing to give me. And I have tried my best to take you guys along on that ride. And when we started it was one time a week and then there was a demand for it. We went to two times a week, there was a demand for more. So we went to three times a week and there was a demand for more. We went to four times a week. And y' all, the three to four times a week was really tough for me. I was really hesitant to do it. I felt that three times a week was really the good clip for my show. And when I went to four times a week, I was like, I just don't know how long I can sustain this. And every few months I've reassessed, do I want to continue doing four times a week? And there have been periods, a lot of periods in the past few years where four times a week has been necessary. It's been like hour and a half long episodes every day for, you know, four times a week. Because of everything that was going on in the news, whether it was in 2020, I think we were doing four episodes then, or whether it was in the 2024 election year or midterms or whatever. People always ask me, do you ever run out of things to talk about? And I'm like, no. I feel like I could go, you know, like five, six, seven episodes a week and still have more to talk about. There's always so much. But this time when I started reassessing again and talking to chief related bro about the season of life that we're in, believe it or not, I have an old. I've an oldest child who is about to start kindergarten who is six years old, which is just like insane to me. A lot of you remember my first maternity leave episodes when I first announced I was was pregnant with my oldest and now she's about to go into kindergarten. And it seems that now is the time for me to scale back a little bit on Relatable. And so we are going to move to three times a week starting next week. Next week will actually only be two episodes because it'll be 4th of July, next Friday. Next Friday. Um, and so we won't have an episode, but it will be Monday, Wednesday and Friday. That will be the new schedule for relatable. And we are going to try to follow the same formula every week. We will see how this goes. But Monday is going to be news, right, Bri? Trying to remember Wednesday, Theology. And then Friday will be our guest episodes. And we've already been planning what these are going to look like, the topics that we're going to cover, and the amazing guests that we are going to have. But I actually think that this will allow us to be even more intentional with planning each episode and will also allow us to be even more topical. I already don't feel like I'm bound to the 24 hour news cycle, but having one less episode a week I think will make it feel even more like that. That okay, if I just want to cover theology today, it doesn't matter what's going on in the world. This is the topic that we've planned for. This is the topic that we've written for, researched for, and this is what we are going to do today. And honestly, going back to the beginning of Relatable, those are the episodes that y' all have loved the most. Sometimes y' all really want me to break down something that's happening in the news right now, but most of the time, y' all want me to break down a trend that you're seeing. Explain a topic, explain some kind of theological subject, have a debate or talk in depth with someone about their faith whom you've never heard, share their testimony before. And so that's really what we are going to focus on going forward now. There may be a season in the future where we go back to four episodes, depending on what's going on. It will just kind of depend on our, on our schedule. But this is what's right for our family first and foremost in this new season of life, this new era where I don't really know exactly what it's going to look like to, like, have kids in school. It's crazy. You think it's going to give you, like, more time, but it doesn't. Like, you just really want to be, like, so focused on their education and ensuring they're fully taken care of in that way. I'm so thankful for the flexibility of this job, the freedom of this job. I already get to be home so much and spend so much time with my family. C.R. and I work together full time time. So we always travel with our family. But this is going to give us even more of that in this next season of life. And I'm very grateful for that. I'm grateful for y' all. Y' all have been with me through so many seasons, through so many parts of this journey, and I'm grateful to God that I get to have this relationship with an incredible audience and that at least for right now, I get this platform to talk about things that really, really matter. And I will continue to do so as long as he calls me to it and as long as it is what is best for my family. And yeah, that's all I wanted to say. Just wanted to let y' all know that. And so we will be back here on Monday. Sa.