Podcast Episode Summary
Podcast: Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey
Episode: Ep 1246 | Unbiblical Churches: A Pastor’s List of Red Flags | Todd Wagner
Air Date: September 26, 2025
Guest: Todd Wagner, former pastor, founder of Unhindered and the 1613 Project
Episode Overview
This episode focuses on discerning biblical from unbiblical churches, the responsibilities of pastors and congregants, and actionable wisdom for both churchgoers and parents. Todd Wagner, drawing on decades of ministry experience, shares his "red flags" for unhealthy churches, explains how to prayerfully address concerns with church leadership, and gives encouragement to parents raising children in an increasingly tumultuous culture. The discussion weaves theology, practical advice, and personal stories, aiming to equip listeners for deeper involvement in their faith communities.
Key Topics & Insights
1. Todd Wagner’s Background and Heart for Ministry
- Todd founded Watermark Church in Dallas, led it for 23 years, and now heads Unhindered and the 1613 Project.
- His post-church work is less public but deeply rooted in biblical equipping and action.
- Wagner emphasizes modeling his life on Paul's "unhindered" ministry (Acts 28:31) (04:02–04:16).
“Whatever I do, I want to be associated with the Word of God, because that's what's going to be Unhindered. Everything else is going to fail… The grass withers, flower fades, but the word of God will last forever.”
— Todd Wagner (03:54–04:06)
2. The Impact of Charlie Kirk’s Assassination and the Call for Authentic Faith
- The recent event sparked reflection on legacy and genuine Christianity, with Wagner noting Kirk’s transition from “Christless conservatism” to bold gospel proclamation.
- The hosts warn against passivity and call for “tending to the Lord’s business,” highlighting the difference between attending church and being the Church (04:25–09:00).
“There’s a world of difference between attending a service and tending to the Lord’s business.”
— Todd Wagner (09:00)
3. Defining Unbiblical Churches: Red Flags
Red Flag Principles:
- Consumer Mentality: Churches cutting deals with people ("You show up, give, and I won’t ask too much of you.") (12:18–14:03).
- No Expectation for Discipleship/Action: Pastors not pushing congregations toward serving, evangelism, and spiritual gifts (14:03–15:30).
- Lack of Accountability/Meaningful Membership: Absence of structures and culture that encourage mutual growth and correction (15:16, 42:27–42:57).
- Church as Weekly Meeting, not Mission: The church centered around the Sunday experience rather than daily missional living (16:14–20:10).
“If your church is collecting you and isn't calling you to greatness ... you're in a non-biblical church.”
— Todd Wagner (18:29–18:46)
Analogy:
- The Aviary: Pastors more interested in collecting "birds" (talented congregants) than equipping and sending them to soar in their calling (16:16–17:46, 45:50–46:53).
- “They’re building an aviary… as opposed to saying, no. Some of you guys… my job is to equip you and help you be what God wants you to be.” (17:50–18:29)
4. Faith in Action — Moving Beyond Attendance
- True faith bears fruit: listeners are reminded to not just believe, but to walk out their beliefs (25:16–27:00).
“You gotta get after it. ... a life is a long-term mission trip and every week is a short-term mission opportunity.”
— Todd Wagner (26:38–27:00)
- Mission isn’t just overseas; the church’s “mission budget” should be synonymous with its entire budget.
5. How to Approach Pastors with Concerns
- The Heart: Approach with humility, referencing 1 Peter 5:5 (clothing oneself with humility) (30:16).
- The Content: Come with thoughtful, biblically rooted questions (“Tell me your view on how we're equipping the saints for the work of service”) and solutions, not just complaints (30:16–32:57).
- Understand the pastor’s vision; if necessary, ask permission to lead a small group/model within the church (47:15–47:45).
- Decision Point: If the church resists or merely wants to use your involvement as tokenism, consider moving on: “the only way to vote is with your feet” (48:18).
6. God’s Standard for Rewards & Judgment
- Salvation by grace, judgment by works: Christians will be judged and rewarded for what they do with their saving faith (38:24–37:46).
- The Parable of Talents/Minas: Different gifts, but equal rewards for faithfulness. Emphasis on using what God gives, rather than envying gifts or platforms (43:42–45:50).
7. Encouragement and Practical Advice for Parents
- Primary Calling: Parents are the chief disciplers of their children, not the church or Christian schools (58:07).
- Authentic Example: Children learn from watching the lived, daily reality of their parents' faith, not just Sunday attendance (55:10).
- Alien Parenting: If your convictions often put you at odds with the surrounding culture (“nobody does this!”), you’re likely on the right (biblical) track (56:24).
- Repentance and Reconciliation at Home: Modeling humility, forgiveness, and biblical conflict resolution is critical (52:08–53:59).
- Testimony of Fewer Scars: It's a blessing for children to experience the joy and protection of walking with God from an early age, even if their “testimony” isn’t dramatic (57:11–57:49).
“We did not want to raise obedient children. We wanted to raise healthy adults.”
— Todd Wagner (52:21)
“If you're not okay being an alien parent today, then you're not ready to be a biblical parent.”
— Todd Wagner (56:24)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On Revival & Sobriety in Tragedy:
“This is exactly the kind of thing God would do before he's about to do something else ... God always pauses ... it's like God's like, what are you guys going to do with this?”
— Todd Wagner (06:16–07:53) -
On The Difference Between Biblical and Unbiblical Leadership:
“Most churches are like circuses ... where we put the best performers on stage and you pay to support them ... no man, I used to use the phrase we're a clown school, right? Like we're going to teach you to clown. ... Figure out what it is to bring joy to the world and then you got to go do it.”
— Todd Wagner (19:23–20:10) -
On Discipleship and the Local Church:
“The church is a mission. You are a missionary, all of us ...”
— Todd Wagner (27:33–27:46) -
On Addressing Church Leadership:
“You ought to know what God's calling you to be, and then you should go with humility to your pastor ... tell me your view on how we're equipping the saints for the work of service.”
— Todd Wagner (31:09–32:24) -
On Parenting:
“If you don't, if you're not okay being an alien parent today, then you're not ready to be a biblical parent.”
— Todd Wagner (56:24)
Timestamps for Key Segments
- [02:41] Introduction, Todd’s background and current ministries
- [04:16] Reflections on revival and Charlie Kirk’s legacy
- [12:18] Identifying unbiblical churches
- [17:02] The hawk/aviary analogy: Churches as collectors or launchpads
- [20:16] Defining full devotion in church life
- [25:16] Living faith: stories of youth service and discipleship
- [27:00] The church as a mission, every believer as a missionary
- [30:16] How to approach pastors with concerns
- [38:24] Rewards, works, and judgment for Christians
- [42:27] Meaningful membership and biblical accountability
- [43:09] Every member valuable: gifts in the church (Charlie’s team)
- [45:50] Final warning against “aviary” churches
- [51:31] Parenting for godliness in a fallen world
- [58:07] The irreplaceable role of parents in spiritual formation
- [59:41] How to connect with Todd and his ministries
Resources & Further Information
- Todd Wagner’s ministries:
- Book (not yet released): Holy Discontent by Todd Wagner
- Allie Beth’s conference: sharethearrows.com
Conclusion
Todd Wagner’s insights serve as a timely challenge for churchgoers, parents, and Christian leaders to reject passivity, seek meaningful accountability, and model faith in every sphere of life. The church flourishes when every member moves from “spectator” to participant, using their God-given gifts in daily mission—not just on Sundays.
End of Summary