Ep 1246 | Unbiblical Churches: A Pastor’s List of Red Flags | Todd Wagner

Summary

Podcast Episode Summary

Podcast: Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey
Episode: Ep 1246 | Unbiblical Churches: A Pastor’s List of Red Flags | Todd Wagner
Air Date: September 26, 2025
Guest: Todd Wagner, former pastor, founder of Unhindered and the 1613 Project

---

Episode Overview

This episode focuses on discerning biblical from unbiblical churches, the responsibilities of pastors and congregants, and actionable wisdom for both churchgoers and parents. Todd Wagner, drawing on decades of ministry experience, shares his "red flags" for unhealthy churches, explains how to prayerfully address concerns with church leadership, and gives encouragement to parents raising children in an increasingly tumultuous culture. The discussion weaves theology, practical advice, and personal stories, aiming to equip listeners for deeper involvement in their faith communities.

---

Key Topics & Insights

1. Todd Wagner’s Background and Heart for Ministry

• Todd founded Watermark Church in Dallas, led it for 23 years, and now heads Unhindered and the 1613 Project.
• His post-church work is less public but deeply rooted in biblical equipping and action.
• Wagner emphasizes modeling his life on Paul's "unhindered" ministry (Acts 28:31) (04:02–04:16).

“Whatever I do, I want to be associated with the Word of God, because that's what's going to be Unhindered. Everything else is going to fail… The grass withers, flower fades, but the word of God will last forever.”
— Todd Wagner (03:54–04:06)

---

2. The Impact of Charlie Kirk’s Assassination and the Call for Authentic Faith

• The recent event sparked reflection on legacy and genuine Christianity, with Wagner noting Kirk’s transition from “Christless conservatism” to bold gospel proclamation.
• The hosts warn against passivity and call for “tending to the Lord’s business,” highlighting the difference between attending church and being the Church (04:25–09:00).

“There’s a world of difference between attending a service and tending to the Lord’s business.”
— Todd Wagner (09:00)

---

3. Defining Unbiblical Churches: Red Flags

Red Flag Principles:

• Consumer Mentality: Churches cutting deals with people ("You show up, give, and I won’t ask too much of you.") (12:18–14:03).
• No Expectation for Discipleship/Action: Pastors not pushing congregations toward serving, evangelism, and spiritual gifts (14:03–15:30).
• Lack of Accountability/Meaningful Membership: Absence of structures and culture that encourage mutual growth and correction (15:16, 42:27–42:57).
• Church as Weekly Meeting, not Mission: The church centered around the Sunday experience rather than daily missional living (16:14–20:10).

“If your church is collecting you and isn't calling you to greatness ... you're in a non-biblical church.”
— Todd Wagner (18:29–18:46)

Analogy:

• The Aviary: Pastors more interested in collecting "birds" (talented congregants) than equipping and sending them to soar in their calling (16:16–17:46, 45:50–46:53).
  • “They’re building an aviary… as opposed to saying, no. Some of you guys… my job is to equip you and help you be what God wants you to be.” (17:50–18:29)

---

4. Faith in Action — Moving Beyond Attendance

• True faith bears fruit: listeners are reminded to not just believe, but to walk out their beliefs (25:16–27:00).

“You gotta get after it. ... a life is a long-term mission trip and every week is a short-term mission opportunity.”
— Todd Wagner (26:38–27:00)

• Mission isn’t just overseas; the church’s “mission budget” should be synonymous with its entire budget.

---

5. How to Approach Pastors with Concerns

• The Heart: Approach with humility, referencing 1 Peter 5:5 (clothing oneself with humility) (30:16).
• The Content: Come with thoughtful, biblically rooted questions (“Tell me your view on how we're equipping the saints for the work of service”) and solutions, not just complaints (30:16–32:57).
  • Understand the pastor’s vision; if necessary, ask permission to lead a small group/model within the church (47:15–47:45).
• Decision Point: If the church resists or merely wants to use your involvement as tokenism, consider moving on: “the only way to vote is with your feet” (48:18).

---

6. God’s Standard for Rewards & Judgment

• Salvation by grace, judgment by works: Christians will be judged and rewarded for what they do with their saving faith (38:24–37:46).
• The Parable of Talents/Minas: Different gifts, but equal rewards for faithfulness. Emphasis on using what God gives, rather than envying gifts or platforms (43:42–45:50).

---

7. Encouragement and Practical Advice for Parents

• Primary Calling: Parents are the chief disciplers of their children, not the church or Christian schools (58:07).
• Authentic Example: Children learn from watching the lived, daily reality of their parents' faith, not just Sunday attendance (55:10).
• Alien Parenting: If your convictions often put you at odds with the surrounding culture (“nobody does this!”), you’re likely on the right (biblical) track (56:24).
• Repentance and Reconciliation at Home: Modeling humility, forgiveness, and biblical conflict resolution is critical (52:08–53:59).
• Testimony of Fewer Scars: It's a blessing for children to experience the joy and protection of walking with God from an early age, even if their “testimony” isn’t dramatic (57:11–57:49).

“We did not want to raise obedient children. We wanted to raise healthy adults.”
— Todd Wagner (52:21)

“If you're not okay being an alien parent today, then you're not ready to be a biblical parent.”
— Todd Wagner (56:24)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Revival & Sobriety in Tragedy:
  “This is exactly the kind of thing God would do before he's about to do something else ... God always pauses ... it's like God's like, what are you guys going to do with this?”
  — Todd Wagner (06:16–07:53)

• On The Difference Between Biblical and Unbiblical Leadership:
  “Most churches are like circuses ... where we put the best performers on stage and you pay to support them ... no man, I used to use the phrase we're a clown school, right? Like we're going to teach you to clown. ... Figure out what it is to bring joy to the world and then you got to go do it.”
  — Todd Wagner (19:23–20:10)

• On Discipleship and the Local Church:
  “The church is a mission. You are a missionary, all of us ...”
  — Todd Wagner (27:33–27:46)

• On Addressing Church Leadership:
  “You ought to know what God's calling you to be, and then you should go with humility to your pastor ... tell me your view on how we're equipping the saints for the work of service.”
  — Todd Wagner (31:09–32:24)

• On Parenting:
  “If you don't, if you're not okay being an alien parent today, then you're not ready to be a biblical parent.”
  — Todd Wagner (56:24)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:41] Introduction, Todd’s background and current ministries
• [04:16] Reflections on revival and Charlie Kirk’s legacy
• [12:18] Identifying unbiblical churches
• [17:02] The hawk/aviary analogy: Churches as collectors or launchpads
• [20:16] Defining full devotion in church life
• [25:16] Living faith: stories of youth service and discipleship
• [27:00] The church as a mission, every believer as a missionary
• [30:16] How to approach pastors with concerns
• [38:24] Rewards, works, and judgment for Christians
• [42:27] Meaningful membership and biblical accountability
• [43:09] Every member valuable: gifts in the church (Charlie’s team)
• [45:50] Final warning against “aviary” churches
• [51:31] Parenting for godliness in a fallen world
• [58:07] The irreplaceable role of parents in spiritual formation
• [59:41] How to connect with Todd and his ministries

---

Resources & Further Information

• Todd Wagner’s ministries:
  • unhindered.org
  • 1613project.com
• Book (not yet released): Holy Discontent by Todd Wagner
• Allie Beth’s conference: sharethearrows.com

---

Conclusion

Todd Wagner’s insights serve as a timely challenge for churchgoers, parents, and Christian leaders to reject passivity, seek meaningful accountability, and model faith in every sphere of life. The church flourishes when every member moves from “spectator” to participant, using their God-given gifts in daily mission—not just on Sundays.

---

End of Summary

Transcript

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Before today's episode, I want to take a second to tell you about Fellowship Home Loans. You've probably heard there's a standoff right now between Trump and the Federal Reserve. Trump is pushing hard to bring interest rates down and get the economy moving, but Jerome Powell's holding firm for now because inflation's still hanging around. That means that rates could drop at any moment, and when they do, the prepared people out there will move fast. That's why now is the time to talk to my friends at Fellowship Home Loans. They'll help you run the numbers, look at the full picture and ask the honest question. What is it going to take to get into the home your family needs right now? Even if rates aren't ideal today, if the right home is in front of you, don't miss it. There's a saying they love Marry the home, date the rate. You can always refinance later. They are doing business by the book and they'll help you out. They'll even give you a 500 credit at closing when you go to fellowship homeloans.com alli where you can get a free consultation. Terms apply CSIGHT for details Fellowship Home Loans Mortgage Lending by the Book Nationwide Mortgage Bankers DBA Fellowship Home Loans Equal Housing Lender NMLS Number 819382 Todd Wagner is a former pastor, an author. He founded a very large and influential church in Dallas and now he runs a couple ministries. One of them is the 1613 project and he is equipping pastors and believers to not only be sober minded but match their faith with action and gosh. This episode is jam packed with wisdom. Wisdom for how to know if you are in a biblical church. Why to leave your church, how to bring concerns to your pastor in a way that is actually effective. And he has a word for parents, especially in this moment. As A father of six and a grandfather of 13 grandkids, he's got a whole lot of wisdom. You are going to be so equipped and encouraged by our conversation today. If you love relatable, please subscribe on all of our platforms, YouTube, on Spotify, on Google Play, Apple Podcasts. Leave us a five star review wherever you listen or watch. It helps us out a whole lot. This episode is brought to you by Olive. Olive is the food scanning app to show you what is really in your food. They are trying to make America healthy again. They want us to take seriously the food choices that we make, especially in our grocery store. They make grocery shopping for healthy food really really easy. Just go to the app store and Download Olive on the App Store today. Todd, thanks so much for taking the time to join me.

[Todd Wagner]

It's a blast to be with you.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yes. Okay, for those who may not know, can you tell us who you are and what you do?

[Todd Wagner]

All right. I'm friends of Ali Beth Stuckey.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yes.

[Todd Wagner]

Most importantly, known you since you weren't a Stuckey. Briefly, but watched what God's done with you. It's been really, really awesome to see. So, um, you know, I started a little church called Watermark years ago and was there for about 23 years and felt like that I need to transition away from there in order to be able to continue to be who I really was. And. And so now I'm involved. Just continue doing everything I was doing when I was leading, you know, that church and its campuses, and now just doing it in a way that's probably a little less public. But, you know, we grabbed a ministry name called Unhindered and then doing something called a 1613 project, which probably will relate to some of the stuff we talk about. But what I love about the name Unhindered, right? It's the very last word in the Book of Acts, right? Which it says, you know, kind of ironically, when I left, I was. You know, I didn't have a place. I went from having a massive place with lots of help to kind of being by myself. And Acts ends by saying, for two years, Paul received people in rented quarters, right? Welcoming all who came to him, right? Preaching the kingdom of God and teachings concerning the Lord Jesus and the Word of God went forward with all openness, unhindered. And I thought to myself, that's exactly who I am. You know, whatever I do, I want to be associated with the Word of God, because that's what's going to be Unhindered. Everything else is going to fail.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right?

[Todd Wagner]

But the word of God is not going to.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right?

[Todd Wagner]

Grass withers, flower fades, but the word of God will last forever. So I thought, you know what? Why don't I keep myself attached to that, and then we'll let God do whatever he wants to do, right?

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

What a perfect word for this moment. A lot of people are talking about revival right now, talking about an awakening in the wake of Charlie's assassination. I don't think any of us could have estimated just how much that would rock people who did not know Charlie to their core on a global scale. And a lot of people in my life and just in public have said, wow, I knew Charlie was a Christian. I did not know he Was that kind of Christian?

[Todd Wagner]

Yeah.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

I didn't know that he was preaching the gospel and he was an apologist and an evangelist and all of these things. Thankfully, I did know that, but not everyone did. And it's causing a lot of people to say, what am I doing with my life? And where am I going after this?

[Todd Wagner]

Yeah. Which is awesome.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

And I. I mean, we both agree what happened was horrible. It was tragic. I mean, not just for Erica and the kids, but really for our country and for all those college kids and people that were paying attention to who Charlie was. But what I love, too, you know, I. I first, Charlie kind of came across my radar when he was committed to conservatism, maybe even some would say Christless conservatism early on. I mean, it wasn't as loud.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

His. His. I think his last five years, plus.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yeah, he definitely grew a lot in his evangelism and in his faith the last five years, where he just said.

[Todd Wagner]

You know, listen, I'm going to be. I'm a. I'm a follower of Christ first. And maybe my conservatism flows out of that.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

Like. Like we said. I think he really. He became absolutely unapologetic about that, which I think was the most beautiful part of what he did. You. And I think a lot of people paid attention to that. I had so many people text me, you know, after this weekend, which, you know, when. That they were just like, I never thought I would see so many of our nation's leaders and so many people, you know, speak the way they did about Christ, not about God, not general God, you know, and Charlie's the one that set him up for that in a lot of different ways. I kind of responded back to him. I go, hey, you know, have you been, you know, First Timothy 2:1 and two works, right? Pray for kings and those in authority, and it's all part of what God's doing.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

You know, and I don't, you know, it remains to be seen what he's really up to. Alibaba.

[Interjecting Guest]

I.

[Todd Wagner]

One of things I tweeted out right after that, I go, this is exactly the kind of thing God would do before he's about to do something else. You know what I mean? You talk about.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yeah. What does that mean?

[Todd Wagner]

Well, what I mean by that is, okay, look, like if you read the book of Revelation, okay. And I'm not saying. I mean, we've been in the last time since Paul wrote all of his letters to all the churches, okay. You know, date setters, you Know, be really careful. In fact, last night I had dinner with bunch of my kids and they even said he has this guy from Rwanda's get a lot of attention because he thinks the rapture is going to happen in the last 40 hours. I go, well, he'll get a lot of attention for the next 48 hours.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yeah, right.

[Todd Wagner]

And then I hope people expose him for what he is. You know, if he wants to say he missed or so I, you know, somebody's going to be right one day. But back to the question. What I meant by that was in the book of Revelation, okay? When you, when you look at it closely, it talks about the fact, well, there's seals, trumpets and bowls. The seven trumpets are in the seventh seal and the seven bowls are in the seventh trumpet. If folks ever want to look at Revelation. But what's interesting is that God, God always pauses. He pauses after the sixth seal before he kind of gets, you know, going again with more judgment. It's like a grace interlude. And then here come the trumpets. And then before the seventh trumpet there's a pause and, and it's like God's like, what are you guys going to do with this? And then interestingly enough, when you get to the seventh bowl, or actually the seventh trumpet, which is the all seven bowls, and it's really. Revelation 16 is where you get to the seven bowls and there is no pause. He just rolls through it and what you see is the world responds just like Egypt responded during the plagues of Moses.

[Interjecting Guest]

All right?

[Todd Wagner]

So I mean, if people want to go, look, six of the seven bowls, all right, line up with some of the plagues that happened in Egypt, okay? And what Pharaoh did, he just kept hardening his heart, Hardening his heart. And then God hardened his heart as an illustration of the necessity of the grace of God and the hard heartedness of men. But at certain points, you know, Proverbs 29 says, he who hardens his neck, much reproof will suddenly be broken beyond remedy. So what I said, okay, was, hey, listen, guys, pay attention, right? You know, God is not slow as some count slowness, but he is patient towards you, not wishing for any to perish. But I'll come to eternal life. I don't know if the world's gonna end, but man, your world's gonna end one day. Yeah, right. And that's why I just tell people all the time, I mean, listen, God does offer forgiveness to your repentance. He doesn't promise tomorrow to your procrastination, right? Today is the day of Salvation. And what a gift, our country. I mean, to sit and listen to things that were, like, eternally important, ultimately important, and then also for a lot of folks to see. Hey, a lot of people really have been doing something with this idea.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah, right.

[Todd Wagner]

Too many people, Ali Beth, go to church. And frankly, they go to unbiblical churches. I'll explain what I mean by that. And they're not a part of the church. There's a world of difference between attending a service and tending to the Lord's business. And what was awesome. Okay, is I think people realize, man, Charlie was tending to the Lord's business. I mean, that's what I mean. Periodically, I'll text you, and I'm just like, hey, I'm so proud of you. Because I. Because, you know, we'll talk about issues. We don't have to drag quote scripture every time we speak.

[Interjecting Guest]

Yeah, right.

[Todd Wagner]

You know, but you're not afraid of who you are. And who you are is a person who understands the kindness of God and the. The goodness of his word is. Is somebody who's lovingly sharing that with others. I'm not going to love you more if you agree with me.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

But here we go. So you just do a great job at that, and so did Charlie, and I'm thankful for you.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Well, thank you. Okay, y', all, let me remind you, October 11th, Dallas, Texas, share the Arrows is happening our Christian women's conference. It is going to be amazing, y'.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

All.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

It's gonna be amazing. I cannot wait to worship with y'.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

All.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

I cannot wait to learn with y'.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

All.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

I cannot wait to speak to and encourage y'.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

All.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

We've got Elisa Childers. We've got Ginger Duggar Volo. We've got a motherhood panel with Abby Halberstadt, Hillary Morgan. For rare, we've got a biblical health panel, which is going to be so important. We've got Shauna Holman and Taylor Dukes on that. And then we've got our girl, Katie Faust. She's going to be bringing it. It's going to be amazing. Francesca Battistelli, leading worship. Go to sharetheaeros.com you can go ahead and use my code ALI20sharethe arrows.com alley20 and you'll get 20% off. Share the arrows this year is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers at share the arrows.com code ali20. Before we get back into that conversation, I want to tell you about my good friends at Carly Jean Los Angeles. They're going to be there at Share the arrows. We love them so much. They are so awesome, unapologetic about the faith, and they just make great clothing. I love these jeans. My jeans are from cjla. Almost all of my jeans are from CJLA because they're so comfortable. They're stretchy, and they feel so comfortable in every stage of life, but they don't have a lot of give. So even though they're stretchy, at the end of the day, you're not going to be like, oh, my gosh, these look awful on me. They look way too big now. That's just like the sweet spot. And all of their clothes, really, all of their clothes are so classic, so high quality. All of their basics line is made in the U.S. carly and Chad and their family, they're just the real deal. And I genuinely love the styles at CGLA. If you go to CarlyJean Los Angeles.com and use code Ali B, you'll get 20% off your order. That's CarlyJean Los Angeles.com code Ali B. Okay, can we get more into what you said about unbiblical churches? A lot of people are trying to figure out what is the test for my pastor? Because they understand being a pastor, you know, more than anyone, is hard. And they want to be gracious and they want to be understanding with their pastor. But sometimes they might get the nagging feeling that I don't know if my pastor is meeting this moment. I don't know if he's boldly proclaiming the word of God. It kind of seems like he's scared. So how should we think about our church leaders? And how do we decide? Yes, I am in a church that is glorifying God.

[Todd Wagner]

Okay, so let me just start, because what's great is I don't have to make this up, right? God's God's word, right? So first of all, ask if you figure out what your pastor thinks the purpose of his church is, they'll probably say something. You know, maybe from Matthew 28, go and make disciples. I'm like, great, well, what's a disciple like? Can you define a disciple? And disciples are not people that attend his services. One of the things I've said for a long time, Ellie Beth, you know, was you got to stop letting people rip you off. I mean, and most pastors, I really mean this. Most pastors, even the one with good doctrinal statements, they cut a deal with their people. It's like, you come here, right? You validate me with your presence. You know, you give me enough money to keep the lights on. And I won't ask too much of you. And we'll both tell each other we're doing what God wants us to do. It's like, don't get arrested for child pornography this week. You know, don't do anything really embarrassing, I guess, but just show up, you know, be here, serve a little bit in children's ministry. And I'm just like, listen, man, the Bible says Jesus said that his church, right, that the gates of hell won't stand against it. So if your church isn't forward moving, right, we don't huddle up and try and protect ourselves. So if your church isn't forward moving towards bringing light to darkness and calling those who are in darkness out of darkness into his marvelous light. And frankly, not doing. When I say your church, if you're not part of the family of God, that's doing that, too many pastors are frankly just saying, hey, we'll do the ministry. You just come support the ministry. That's an unbiblical church. Okay, so Ephesians says this in chapter four, right? That God gives some as apostles, some as prophets.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right?

[Todd Wagner]

Some as evangelists, some as pastors, some as teachers for the equipping of the saints for the work of service.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

And I'm telling you, man, a lot of. A lot of people will go to churches and just talk about, oh, he's an exegetical pastor, which is good, right? He preaches really well and his doctrine sound. I'm like, that's great. But, but does he move you to action?

[Interjecting Guest]

Right?

[Todd Wagner]

Don't. Don't, you know, be doers of the word, not merely hearers who delude themselves if there's not some form of accountability, some expectation, some opportunity for you to. To. To use your gifts again, not just in running the weekly meeting. Churches don't run weekly meetings. That, that verse that we always use, you know, don't forsake your summon together is the habit of some. There's nothing in there that talks about one day a week, right? That same, that same book, Hebrews, right? I just quoted Hebrews 10:24. He. That same book says in Hebrews 3, encourage each other day after day, as long as it's called today. So we'll be hardened by the sinfulness of sin and deceitfulness of sin, is that it makes a life that is not faithful look faithful or attractive, right? So the worries of the world, the deceitfulness of riches, the concern for many things, this is what chokes out faithfulness. So if you are a part of a church where your pastor is not expecting you to identify your gifts. This is First Peter 4:10. As each one of you has received of gift, be good stewards and employing it and serving one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. So, you know, here's. I'm quoting a ton of scripture here because I don't want you to hear Todd Wagner's opinion.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

I really mean this. And I'll share one illustration. Okay. About four years ago, five years ago, I was driving back. I was on. I was. I was just outside of Canton and I was getting merging onto the highway, and I look over and I see this hawk. I mean, like a amazing hawk. I'll show you a picture of it. Like, I. And I grew up loving my side of the mountain. Did you ever read that book? Okay, great book. My side of the Mountain. It's about a kid that ran away and he found this pet falcon. He actually went up and stole it from a nest. And then he raised this falcon to hunt with him. And, you know, it's part of the book. Okay. And I always thought as a kid, man, it'd be amazing to have like a bird of prey as a pet.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah, right. Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

So anyway, I'm driving, I see this hawk. It's like sitting on the access road. Like, you don't ever see a hawk sitting on the ground.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

And I just. I mean, I was like 30. I stopped, like, was that a hawk? And I backed up and I had a towel. And I mean, I'm show you a picture because it was crazy. And I threw this towel around it and I picked it up and I was like, this is unbelievable, you know, because I've got a hawk and I put in my car, Right. And I had somebody else drive. And I'm like, oh, I've got my hawk.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

First of all, then I was like. And I figured what happened is that thing had swung, you know, probably it's swooped down to find something. Probably hit the side of a semi. It was stunned.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

You know what I mean? And I did find a little split under its wing. But little I know is breaking federal law.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

By possessing.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Whoops.

[Todd Wagner]

Yes, by possessing a bird of prey. But my point is, I thought to myself, look, this is I was making about me.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

You know what I mean? This thing is supposed to be. You know, I immediately thought, how I can walk around like a pirate with a parrot, like a hawk. Like, you think. You think having a puppy at a dog park will get you attention.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

Having a hawk on your shoulder.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

And of course that's not what it's supposed to do. And so, I mean, obviously I called a game warden, said, hey, look, I got this hawk and you know, where can I take this thing? There's a wildlife refugee center right there up I20 and I pulled in, I gave him the hawk. You know, and our job was to nurse that hawk.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

Make that hawk healthy and release it so it could do what it could do. It's not like, you know, I wouldn't. My point is a lot of pastors.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

You know, Alibeth, like, they love when people like you go to their church. Ali Bethy goes here and this person goes here or all these people go here. It's like they're building an aviary. You know what I mean? As opposed to saying, no. Some of you guys, you need to realize you're supposed to, you know, my job is to equip you and to help you be what God wants you to be. I tell folks all the time, and it's the last thing I'll say about this. I've actually got about 15 things. I'm actually preaching through this right now with a group of people asking me to come and I title it why to leave a church. And I gave them 15 reasons why to leave a church. So I'm teaching the positive by illustrating the negative.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

Okay. And you know, and I just, I just said, man, if your church is collecting you and. And isn't calling you to greatness and doesn't see their job as setting you up so that one day when you stand before the Lord, you're going to hear, well done, good and faithful servant, you're in a non biblical church.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

If your church isn't actively confronting the gates of hell, speaking out against hellish things, you're not in a biblical church because that's what Jesus says his church will do. It's not running nice meetings with good worship and even good teaching.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

So it's not just that.

[Todd Wagner]

Not just that it's got, it's got to have that, but that teaching with effect.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

It's supposed to produce something. So I mean, I'm really passionate about that. You know, that was one of the things that marked, you know, I think my leadership at the church. I found it was, you know, people were getting after it, you know, and that's what I wanted. I'm like, man, I'm here to serve you.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

Most churches are like circuses.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

Where we put the Best performers on stage and you pay to support them. And I'm like, no man. I used to use the phrase we're a clown school, right? Like we're going to teach you to clown. Some of you'll be mimes, some of you juggle, some of you'll do magic. But you're going to figure out what it is to bring joy to the world and then you got to go do it. And, and, and frankly, if you're not, then I use this phrase, Ali Beth, I said if you're here and you're not practicing the one another scripture, if you're not abiding with Christ, if you're not, you know, connected to other believe believers in a small intimate environment, you're not discovering, developing and deploying your gifts, then you're not a regular attender, you're an irregular believer. And so I'm not saying you're going to hell, I'm just saying you're not pursuing heaven with us.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah, right.

[Todd Wagner]

And so you're the outlier.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Next sponsor is Good Ranchers. Good Ranchers will also be at Share the Arrows. Corley is going to join me on stage again and their testimony is just so special and I love them so much, but I genuinely love all of their products too. We have been eating Good Ranchers almost exclusively in our home for the past four and a half years. It's made such a difference in our family. It's truly been a blessing. We love their better than organic chicken. We bake multiple batches of chicken every week because our kids love it too. We love their seed oil free chicken nuggets. Their ground beef is awesome, so versatile. But they've got bacon, they've got seafood, they've got all kinds of meat and all from American farms and ranches. You just subscribe. Get that box of meat to your front door on dry ice every month. It will save you so much time and money because also like you go in the grocery store, the prices change every day. And with good ranchers, like they're just so reasonable about that that you don't have to worry about not knowing what things are going to cost. And so it can save so much in your life. If you go to goodranchers.com and use code ALI at checkout, you'll get a forty dollar discount when you do that. Go to ranchers.com code ALI.

[Todd Wagner]

Full devotion is what's normal. What Charlie did, I mean, listen, I think he was uniquely gifted. I think he worked hard. Were you there on Sunday? I was, yes, I Didn't get to catch a lot of it. But you know who I did here was Larry Arnold. Yeah, I caught.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Interesting speech, right?

[Todd Wagner]

I love what he said. Do you remember what Larry said? When? Larry said. When Charlie came to him and said, what do I got to do?

[Interjecting Guest]

You remember what?

[Todd Wagner]

Do you remember what Larry said? You heard a lot. You were there for five hours.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

He. Well, he basically told him that you need to go read. You need to read the classics, you need to read the Bible, you need to read the founding documents. And Charlie would send him all of these certificates of completion of all of the courses he was taking online at Sale.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah, right.

[Todd Wagner]

But what he said. I love what Larry said. He goes, you're gonna have to suffer. That was the word. He goes, you have to suffer. And, and, and, and you know, Charlie looked at him and said, what are you talking about? And he said, like, look, you're going to have to say no to a lot of things so you can equip yourself because you don't know what you need to know. So you could do what God wants you to do.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yes.

[Todd Wagner]

And then he said, next thing I knew, I got an email with a completed certificate of the first class.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

And then he is one of, what do you say, six or seven people that's ever done all 31 of them.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

And I'm. Listen, I talked to my kids about that. Literally, I just said, look, man, he's not just. I think people listen to Charlie debate or they listen to you here, Ali Beth, and they're like, oh, she's so gifted. And, and listen, you are, okay. I mean, you know, but you work at it, right?

[Interjecting Guest]

Fair.

[Todd Wagner]

I mean, you discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness. You study God's word, you surround yourself with people who spur you on, and, you know, you work at it. And so it's not like, you know, you just were, you know, I was telling my kids this, this is why I was just saying that, look, man, you have a better chance of being Charlie Kirk than you do LeBron James. You guys weren't born with 40 inch verticals, right? You know, and LeBron's done a good job taking care of his body and maybe increasing his vert a little bit. But he was uniquely physically gifted. And I think, listen, you know, all of us are given different amounts of grace. And not every believer needs to be Charlie Kirk, but every believer needs to be great at what they do.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yes.

[Todd Wagner]

The way Ali Beth and Charlie is. That's the point. And if you're in a church that is just with. Okay, you attending and supporting what they're doing, you're in a non biblical church.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

No matter how good the doctrine is.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

You know when you were talking about how one of the things that you wanted to do when you led Watermark was spur people towards action. You know, I started going to Shoreline, which was the youth group at Watermark, probably sophomore, junior, junior, senior year of high school. And that was really one of the first times that I, even though I definitely was a Christian at that point, but I was also in this time of really taking my faith more seriously for a variety of reasons, but going to Camp Barnabas, which is this camp in Missouri for kids and adults with special needs. For those of you out there who don't know that that was such a life changing moment for me and truly one of the first times that I was like, okay, this is what it tangibly day to day looks like to deny myself, take up my cross and follow Christ. Not that it wasn't also fun and enjoyable because it's a great time, but it was such a lesson in service for me. It wasn't just mission trips are great. I'm not saying that. But you know, sometimes you can go on a mission trip with your friends and you do a little work and you do a little vacation, but this was like day and night. Truly trying to be the hands and feet of Jesus in a not glamorous way.

[Todd Wagner]

I think we usually went during wheelchair week.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah, right.

[Todd Wagner]

So your kids could do anything.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

No, it was intense. We were talking like everything, you know.

[Todd Wagner]

Like hygiene, showers, bathroom. I mean, it was the whole.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yes. And I just want to like, thank you for your leadership in that time that. Because you're right, because I saw exactly what you're talking about, that it was faith to action. It was faith. Yes. Without faith, it's impossible to please God. We read that in the book of Hebrews. However, when we read those hall of fame faith Heroes in Hebrews 11, by faith, they what? They didn't sit there, they did something.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

All of them.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Yes. And I think that's really important for Christians to remember, especially in this moment. Belief is so important. Faith is so important. But I'm not going to believe that you have faith in that chair if you refuse to sit in it.

[Todd Wagner]

Amen. That's it. So you look at all of Paul's books, like even, let's just use Ephesians. It's the easiest one right now since we're already in it.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

Paul has this outline for all of his books. The first half is like the word of God and then the work of people who believe the word of God or what you believe, and then how you behave.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yes, right.

[Todd Wagner]

What the doctrine is, what you do. So you get through the first three chapters and it's almost a 50, 50 deal. Except for Romans. Romans. It's 11 chapters of what you believe.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

And then it's I urge you, therefore.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

By the mercy of God, to present your body right. As a living and holy sacrifice. Get after it. So Romans has 11 chapters of that and then four of application. But Ephesians one through three is what we believe. Then chapter four. And he says, therefore I, the prison of the Lord, urge you to walk worthy of the calling of which you've.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Been called so good.

[Todd Wagner]

And so you're exactly right, Ali Beth. It's. You gotta. You gotta get after it. And one of the things, Eva, we did, we wouldn't even let. Like when we would send our people overseas, we would never use the term mission trip, because why? It reinforces that what we do at Camp Barnabas or what we do in Africa or what we do in Mexico is a mission. What we do here is we just live and wait for the next mission.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right?

[Todd Wagner]

And so I. The phrase I use all the time is a life is a long term mission trip. And every week is a short term mission opportunity, or short. You know, and so we would call those. When you would go to places like that, we'd call them discipleship opportunities. Discipleship trips where you would just go and do what disciples do. But, but I wanted people to think you're on mission every day because the church is a mission. So as watermark grew over the years, and people would ask me, well, what's the mission budget? I would say it's, well, this year it's 35 million. Then we go, well, my gosh, what's the church budget? I go, oh, I thought you just asked me. Yeah, that question.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah, right.

[Todd Wagner]

Because the church, this is the thing, people, you gotta understand, the church is a mission. You are a missionary, all of us, right? And so, Ali Beth, you are doing the work of an evangelist. That's what you do every day here.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right?

[Todd Wagner]

And it's not just sharing. You know, God is good, man is bad, Jesus died. You know, repent and trust in him, but we should share that a lot. Yeah, but the gospel is legs. And what you're trying to make the case for is, listen, God's good. He's not trying to rip you off.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah, right.

[Todd Wagner]

He's trying to set you free. It's the one, it's the God of this world that's blinded the minds of the non believing.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

And Jesus has come that you might have life and you're making a case for that. And so you talk about that. I've loved the way you've just honored womanhood and honored motherhood.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

And just faithfulness. I mean you do that on your show so well.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Well, that's really kind of you to say it means a lot coming from you.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

So.

[Todd Wagner]

Yeah. Because you know, I wouldn't say it if it wasn't true.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

It's true. It's true. That is true.

[Todd Wagner]

Foreign.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Next sponsor is Shopify. Y', all. Shopify makes your life so much easier. If you are an entrepreneur, if you've got any kind of e commerce business, you're selling merchandise, you're selling art, whatever it is, you need to make sure that you've got a shop set up. And if you're a business owner, especially if you're like a mom and a business owner, you don't have time to start from scratch. Are you going to learn to code? Of course not. You need a service that is going to help you make it as easy and as simple and as effective as possible so you can just focus on creating your product and making money. That is why Shopify exists. We use Shopify to sell our merchandise and they just make it so easy. They even help with things like product description so you don't have to spend hours doing that. It is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses and 10% of all E commerce in the United States. People use them because it's really easy to use and it works. So turn your big business idea into with Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month and start selling [e-mail] ally. That's shopify.com ally. I think that you're the perfect person to answer this question that I've gotten so much. You're we're talking about healthy churches and what churches should be and how pastors should lead.

[Interjecting Guest]

Yeah.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

And I get a lot of questions. What should I say to my pastor, which is really hard to speak into for everyone's individual situation. But if someone does have a concern about how their church is being led, you from a pastoral perspective, what's the most effective way for a congregant to bring their concern to a pastor?

[Todd Wagner]

That's a great question. Okay. So the Bible says, let me just again, I'll try and just help people because you don't have to hear from Todd Wagner. But I think, you know, all of it says, clothe yourself with humility, right? And, and so, and you know, each of us, so you younger men, be subject to your elders, and all of you clothe yourself with humility. For God's opposed to the proud and gives grace to the humble. So first of all, you ought to know, like, something ought to stir you. One of the things that I tell people all the time is like, like baptism is the very first thing you should do if you're a believer. But I, I could convince you to get baptized. What I really like is when people read their Bible and go, why am I not baptized? They're like, the, like, that seems to be really important. I'm like, exactly, yeah. You know what I mean? And, and so that, to me, is usually when people, I, I go, you know, I think you get it, you know, because you're reading the word of God and you do what it says. So you ought to know, okay? And this is why I'm just telling you, the church in America, Ali Beth and I really do, we have a problem with our pastors because it's, it's just good business to not ask too much of people, okay? Even the church I led since I've left, they've changed some purpose statements and changed some of what we were doing. And, you know, different leadership can do it at once. But what I would just say is that you ought to know what God's calling you to be, and then you should go with humility to your pastor and just say, hey, how can I help? Like, here's some things I feel like I need to do and that we should be doing. Or tell me your view on how we're equipping the saints for the work of service. Like, not just supporting children's ministry, parking or greeting. We need to do that for our weekly meeting. But the church is not a weekly meeting, right? I, I, I would, I would say almost every week, man, that we're here for two reasons. In fact, it was interesting, like when, when we built the building finally, you know, the people that built it put worship center on our largest room, right? And I literally popped off the those words and I said, I had the little, the wrsh. IP up there in my hands. I said, guys, this has came off this room because this is not the worship center. I go, like, this is the worship center, right? It's why I would end services with like, man, have a great week of worship.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah, right. I was about to say that, you know, yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

So I was like, let's go. We got in here to do two things. To remind. To remember the grace of God, how great our God is, because that world's loud. It constantly is getting us to believe that, you know, we should manage our spirituality, but really kind of give ourselves to personal peace and affluence, to use Frank's. Frank Schaeffer's ideas of what mutes the church. And I'm like, no, we got to remind ourselves that this is truth and what's real is the world that's coming and that we are aliens and strangers and that God is good and he's not trying to rip us off.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

And then. So to remember God and then to remind ourselves what we do, that we, each of us is going to have to give an account for our life. One of the things that was so amazing about what Charlie was doing.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

I mean, I love what Frank Turek said.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah. So good.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Right?

[Todd Wagner]

Yeah. Tell everybody what Frank said, just so people can hear from another voice in mind today.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Well, you know, he said. He said so much that was good, but where he got the most animated. And I just. In the room, you could just feel it. He said, and I'm paraphrasing here, he said it a lot more clearly than I am. But he said, you know, Charlie is not in heaven because he was a good father and husband. He was not in heaven because he shared the gospel with all these people. He's not in heaven because he sacrificed himself for his Savior. Charlie Kirk is in heaven because his Savior sacrificed himself for Charlie.

[Todd Wagner]

Amen.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

That's it.

[Todd Wagner]

That's it. And so Charlie, you know, Charlie wasn't there. Now watch. What's great is that he was saved by grace through faith.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yes.

[Todd Wagner]

Not of ourselves as a gift from God, not as a result of works.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yes.

[Todd Wagner]

So that no man should boast. But then verse 10. But Charlie, was God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that he should walk in them. And what I did, you know, in fact, my wife and I had a little bit of a. I was talking to one of my. My kids, and they were shook like everybody was. And I think part of what reason we were shook is you. Without wanting to see anything, we just got on. We saw Charlie Turk was trending. We turned it on. And I know we saw horrible things and things that we're not supposed to see.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Exactly.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

But my kids just go. And they said, I'm just so sad. And I said to him, I go, I'm not sad. I go back. You know, I'm like, I'm motivated. You know what I mean? And my wife. Because you can't say that. And I go, well, babe, I wasn't saying I wasn't sad. I mean, I am sad. It's horrible. But what I was doing is making a statement of comparison. I go, what I mean is, what really makes me sad is how many people think that what God wants them to do is watch Charlie Kirk clips on YouTube.

[Interjecting Guest]

All right?

[Todd Wagner]

Or go to church and not do what Charlie did. That. What makes me sad is how many people think that now that Charlie's gone, what are we going to do? You know? And I. So, I mean, obviously I was sad. But what really makes me sad, Ali Beth, is Christians and aviaries. What really makes me sad is that people think that what you're doing to make a difference is what this. I mean, cheer for you, pray for you, encourage you, but then figure out what's their part.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah, okay.

[Todd Wagner]

And do their thing. Because it's. Because Charlie Kirk had no idea that he was going to live, that God had appointed.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right?

[Todd Wagner]

The scripture says in Psalm 139, God has fixed our days. Who knew Charlie Kirk's days were 31? In some.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Right?

[Todd Wagner]

But each of us has some days. And that's why I would always tell myself, I'm gonna have to give an account for these souls. Hebrews 13 says, as a pastor, and. And. And if somebody is not, you know, and I mean, frankly, just as friends. Okay. You know, Ali Beth, you know, you. You and I, when I get to heaven, right? And. And I'm standing before the Lord and he says, todd, you like. You know, if he says to me, well done, good and faithful servant, it's like, I'm gonna. I wanna probably look over my shoulder and see my community, see Ali Beth and Tim and God. Hey, thank you. Because there's no way he would have said that if it wasn't for your friendship, if it wasn't for your example. So. Thank you. That if. If members of your body.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

They're not. He's not going to say, well done, good and educated theologian. You knew you were a sinner and that Christ was the provision for all men. Okay. That you're not going to be there unless that's true. Yeah, but what you're going to get judged for, right? Salvation is always by grace, but judgment. And we don't talk about this enough. Christians are going to be judged, right? So if you have no salvation, then you're only going to be judging your works. And that's not going to work out well for you.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

Okay. But first, Corinthians 3 says that no man can lay a foundation except that laid by Christ and the apostles. Okay. And then it says that we're going to then present to the Lord what we've done and what is of wood, hay and stubble.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

And imperishable things or perishable things is going to get consumed and you'll be saved as one who passes through fire. But what we do with our faith is what's going to remain.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

And that's where we. I think that's what. I think that's what he's going to say. Well done. You know, when I stand before the Lord, he's not going to punish me for my sins. Christ covered that. But he's going to reward me for what? My faith, His. His grace working out in me as I believed in him and abided with him.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

What I produced for him. And I really believe that that's. If you. If your church, your community. That's what I mean by that. Your faithful brothers and sisters in Christ aren't helping. You have more to stand before Christ with that he'll get the glory for to lay at his feet that he will celebrate. Then you're not in a biblical church.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

That's a really good distinction. You're right. We really don't talk about the judgment that Christians are going to endure. And it's so important to distinguish. Yes, by grace, through faith, you have been saved. You quoted Ephesians 2 earlier. Paul says over and over again, not your own doing, not a result of works, it's a gift so that no one can boast. He really wants you to know that. But you're not talking about salvation. No, you're not talking about your works getting you to heaven, but before God, even though you are justified, even though Jesus is standing before you as your advocate, saying their slate is wiped clean, we are still rewarded, you are saying, or scripture says, based on the good that you have done with that saving faith that you have.

[Todd Wagner]

Amen. Judged and rewarded. By the way, you want a horrifying verse. It's in Matthew 7, where people are going to stand there having done stuff, cast out demons, heal people, shared advance the kingdom. And he's going to say to some people, depart from me. I never knew you, because you can do things that God uses, not in faith.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

That verse used to really trouble me. Ali Beth. I would. I would be like, oh, my gosh, how can I even know I'm saved? And the answer is, you know, you're saved because of whom. In whom you trust, not what you do. And then you do what you do because of whom you trust. Here's where it became clear to me. I was reading in John. This is years after I was a believer. I was actually teaching through John. And I got to where it's the night of his betrayal, okay? And he says, hey, listen, you know, one of you is going to betray me. And they have no clue who it is. Now, why is that? It's because when Jesus sent them out to cast out demons and to heal sicknesses and to preach the gospel, when they came back, Matthew says that everybody reported what they had done and rejoiced in what they had done, including Judas. Okay? God used Judas. And. And so it. You know, and he was a son of perdition from the beginning.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Right?

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

And so they. They didn't go, it's got to be Judas. Because every time we came back, he had nothing to report.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Right?

[Todd Wagner]

Judas did what Matthew 7 said, but he never. Because God uses. Listen, God uses imperfect men. Thank him, because that means he can use me to do amazing things. That's why at the end of the day, you know, God says, don't you sit there and try and sort out who's saved and who's not.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right?

[Todd Wagner]

I'll take care of that. But my point is, is I think there's probably. This is a safe statement. I think there's fewer people doing great works for God that aren't saved. Then there are people who think they're saved because of what they believe, who do nothing more than attend churches. I think. I think I'd sleep on that, and I wouldn't sleep on that. If I'm sitting there and I'm like, what am I doing? I'm like, what are your. What are you doing? That is a right response. That's. Again, think about what it says in Romans. I urge you, therefore, brethren, by the mercy of God, present your lives as living and holy sacrifices acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Next sponsor for the day is preborn, y'. All. Preborn is so important. They are an organization that provides pregnancy centers with the equipment that they need to serve moms and to save their babies, like ultrasound equipment. The cost of an ultrasound that a woman can see her baby in, hear the beating heart is $28. $28 is the cost to make sure that you've got the ultrasound tag, that you've got the Time and the space and all of that that is needed to help save that baby's life. And so if you can just donate $28 to Preborn, you are covering the cost of a life saving ultrasound. But maybe $28 isn't right for you. Maybe it's $2.80, maybe it's $28,000. Whatever you can donate to preborn will help save a life. You are putting your money where your heart is. You are getting yourself into the fight for life in a way that God is calling you to when you partner with preborn. So go to preborn.com relatable that's preborn.com relatable.

[Todd Wagner]

It's what you do with your life that is worshiped. It's not where you attend a church most Sundays.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

And if you're in a church where they're not helping you with that, you know, and one of the things I'm doing right now, I bet, is I'm gathering pastors to help equip them, encourage them, remind them of these things. I mean, meaningful membership. If you're in a church that doesn't have meaningful membership.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

Where you're held into account in a loving way.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

The reason accountability so is so important is because that means you count. You matter.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

Like your staff here, if one of them doesn't show up to work, you. You notice it.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

This incredible team that makes this look beautiful and everything work and edits and posts. If they're not here, you're like, hey, I. This matters because you're part of the team.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

If your church doesn't treat you the way you treat your people in the podcast, it's not a biblical church.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

If you cut off your hand, you would notice it. And if we're supposed to be different members of the body of Christ, well, you should notice if the finger is not there, if the eye is not there, it would make a meaningful difference.

[Todd Wagner]

That was one of my favorite parts. Also, I also caught the gentleman, I think you were on with him yesterday.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

The producer of his, Andrew Colvett. Andrew. When? Remember what Andrew did when he got on stage? Did Andrew walk on stage by himself?

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Nope.

[Todd Wagner]

What'd he do?

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

It is full team of Charlie.

[Todd Wagner]

He had podcasts, I don't know 15 or 20 people by. Because you don't know these faces. But Charlie couldn't have done what he's done without these people.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

So you don't have to preach on Sunday. You may not have the gifts that I've got most of us don't have the gifts that you have. Okay. But there are gifts in this room that are every bit as valuable, that are going to be every bit as rewarded.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yes.

[Todd Wagner]

Okay. And one of the things I love to tell people, since we're talking about works. It's like there's two parables that Jesus tells. One of the talents and one of the meanest in the scripture. And what's interesting is if you look at both of those, when people are given, some are given 10, some are given five, and some are given one. Okay. What's interesting about that is if you use your ten talents, guess what? You get the same reward as a person who used their five talents. The same reward is if a person used their one talent. Well, you're not judged because you weren't given 10 talents.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

The reward for people are given different gifts is the same if they're faithful with what they're given. Look, Charlie was given, I think, a beautiful mind.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right?

[Todd Wagner]

So he went through 31 Hillsdale courses, but clearly he had good recall.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

We were laughing earlier about a mutual friend that doesn't have some of the gifts that you've got.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

But that is beautiful. Right. And that her gifts are completely different than yours. And. And she shouldn't have to feel bad that she doesn't have your speaking and writing gifts.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah, Right.

[Todd Wagner]

And yet she uses them to her glory. And so I think, you know, she's going to get the same reward if she's faithful as you are. So in the other one, where people are given 5, 5 and 5, the reward is different. Okay. So there are certain things we all have been given, like today. Okay. So I've been given 62 years so far, so twice as many as Charlie. So our time on earth is not the same. But when Charlie and I lived two weeks ago on Wednesday, our day was the same.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

The scriptures, we have the same scripture. We have the same Holy Spirit. So what are you doing with that?

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

Okay. And it should look different. Some of you are, you know, trumpets, which. Everybody hears a trumpet when it's played, and some people are harps. But just use it the way God wants you and be in a church that helps you use it. And by that, not just to support the weekly meeting, but the mission that the gates of hell won't stand against. That, to me, is what was the thing that makes me sad.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right?

[Todd Wagner]

I am sad. I genuinely am sad about what happened with, obviously, a good young man and those kids and that wife and the people that loved him. But I'm, I am sadder for God's people that are being ripped off by pastors who want to build aviaries.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

And.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Explain, unpack that analogy. The aviary, okay.

[Todd Wagner]

An aviary is a place like that. It's a big cage that a bunch of birds live in.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

And where they just want a bunch of hawks. And look how cool my zoo is because I've got hawks, I've got, you know, whatever the fruit loop bird is and all these other cool things.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Toucan, I think.

[Todd Wagner]

Yeah. See, you know, all these great birds that are in there. And you can come to my aviary and see all the birds I collected. Like, that's not why you're there, Pastor.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah, right.

[Todd Wagner]

Take that screen off.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

And let them be birds of prey.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

Let them be, you know, sparrows and let them be whatever they're supposed to be to the glory of God. And they're not yours to collect and become famous because you have the biggest aviary in the country.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

You're going to give an account for those, those little creatures and, and so get after it, you know, I, I, that makes me sad. And I'm telling you, one of the things you got to do once you go to your pastor, just go, just full circle. And you love them. Come, come with a heart to bring about change and, and with solutions, not just problems, and say, I'm here to serve. What can I do?

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

And if nothing else, do what Daniel did say, hey, maybe we're not going to change the whole church tomorrow, but do I have permission to lead these group of people this way? That's good to start to do it in this little community. And then all of a sudden people are going to see that little part of that community having all the fun and they're going to want to jump in on that and it's going to infect the church that way. Now, I'll say this. You've got to decide pretty quickly if you, if they, because churches like this is the truth. Most pastors like it when you just want to do that. And they'll even refer to you.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

And talk about the great things the church is doing because you're doing that while they're not asking everybody to do that. And you got to make sure you're not making people think that because you're there, it's a good church. Church. It's a good church if they're calling everybody there. And again, we all develop at different levels and at different times. But I tell people, sooner or Later. I hate to say it, but the only way to vote is with your feet and stop funding compromised churches that are more committed to theatrical performance on Sunday. Give you great children's ministry.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

Awesome worship and even exegetical teaching. If it's not helping you, be that. And I'll just say this. If there's a pastor out there that I can serve or churches, that's kind of what this thing, the 1613 project that I'm doing is a little bit a part of is helping people. Frankly, it's not something you join. We come to you, whether you're an entertainer, an athlete, a businessman or a pastor or a mother. We want to help you be what God wants you to be.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

So 1613 comes from First Corinthians, 1613. Be in the alert, stand firm in the faith. And then it says act like men. Or the ESV says act courageously. So if I'm talking to you, I'm not going to act like a man. Ali Beth. I'm going to say act courageously because that's, that's, that's what the scripture says. But be strong and let all you do be done in love.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Our last sponsor for the day is Constitution Wealth. You want to make sure that you are managing and stewarding your resources in a way that glorifies God. The easiest way to make sure you're doing that want is to partner with a company, with an institution that believes in your values. Unfortunately, when you're investing, if you're investing with one of these secular companies like, it can just be hard to navigate ensuring that you are only donating your dollars or investing your dollars rather into causes that you truly believe in. But at Constitution wealth they actually screen all of these organizations and causes for Christian values to make sure that your money truly is going where your heart is. So discovery what faithful stewardship can really look like when it comes to your dollars. By going to constitutionwealth.com ally, you'll get a free consultation. No obligation. Just talk to them, see if it's right for you. That's constitutionwealth.com Alli Constitution wealth is a registered investment advisor. You should review Constitution wealth's [e-mail] to understand their services and fees. All investing involves risk, including the risk of loss. This is a paid endorsement. You've spoken to us as a pastor so uniquely and importantly, I also want you to speak as a parent to parents because you might not. Not everyone knows this about Todd Wagner, but he's got five, six Six. Oh, I missed the last one.

[Todd Wagner]

The one who's not married.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Only the one. The six kids, the one's still in college. Thirteen grandkids and his. I don't know personally, every single one of your children, I know some of them personally and let me just tell you, these are some of the most solid people I know and just incredible. And that is no small feat. And of course we thank the Lord for that. But the Lord equipped you and your wife to raise these amazingly godly children. Five of the six are married. Most of them have children. They take the things of the Lord seriously. And that is our prayer for all of our kids to take the things of the Lord seriously, to put their faith to action. And some people are thinking, wow, the world that we're living in, it's scary and there's a lot of danger out there. Give some encouragement and some practical advice to us who are trying to raise godly kids like the ones you have raised.

[Todd Wagner]

Well, that's very kind. I think my wife and I would both say, and I appreciate you saying my wife and I, because sometimes when I talk to my kids and I I always mean our kids of course. Right. And so my wife was an amazing, is amazing mom grandmother. But we would both say that our greatest ministry accomplishment, the greatest grace in our life is that we have been a blessing to our kids and not a burden. We weren't in the way of them trusting in Christ. You know what I mean? You know, out of Beth, Psalm 128 says this. How blessed is the man who fears the Lord, who walks in his ways. When he eats the fruit of his hands, he will be happy.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

And you know, and then it goes on and just reaffirms that. And I will tell you, I knew whatever I did, you know, when I ended up going into full time ministry, which I did not think I was going to do.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

You know, but God ended me up having me do that. You know, I just, I don't want to raise pastors kids. We have a whole slew of people that are called PKs because you know, they see their dad say one thing in public but they don't want to follow him because maybe it's not who he is at home or whatnot. My kids don't even know what it is to be a pk. In fact, they were one time well known pastors kids were around us and flashed them a PK sign and they were like, what's that? She goes pk, you don't know that. And they're like, we're not pastors kids. They literally said that, you know, but they. Because it has such a negative connotation. But here's what I would say to you is we did not want to raise obedient children. We wanted to raise healthy adults. And so healthy adults have to figure out who God is. And we just told our kids, hey, listen, children are a gift from the Lord. Meaning even though we're your earthly mother and father, we have a stewardship over you. And our job is to, you know, you're his, not ours. Okay? And by God's grace, we've not had a prodigal. Our kids are sinners, just like me, right? I come from the line of Adam redeemed by Christ. They come from the line of Todd in the line of Adam. So they had a sinner for a dad, you know, But. But I will tell them. They saw me order my life and Alex life by God's word. They saw us repent. They saw us ask for forgiveness. They saw us be committed, reconciled with one another. When we broke bread at meals, we didn't do it in an unworthy manner. If there was conflict amongst us as a Christian family, we would stop and work it out before we ate, before we prayed and remembered Christ in our prayer. We just go, let's not do this in an unworthy manner.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right?

[Todd Wagner]

If I need to ask you forgiveness because I was just sharp with your mom in the kitchen or this little sibling stuff going on here, let's work that out. Let's talk about it. Let's be Christians in our home. So I think when you look in the Scripture, the problem before it becomes a problem with Israel, it's always a problem with the family. If you look at Israel in the book of Judges, right? Let's go to Samuel, because the last judge was Eli, okay? Before, I guess, Samuel be the last judge. But there was a problem with Israel because Eli's sons were not walking with the Lord and Eli wouldn't discipline them. And he. And so that made its way into the way. The people just despised the things of the Lord. So I just think, you know, for us, okay, I tell people, the kids, the kids who do well are the kids that not don't watch their parents go to church. Kids whose parents go to church. I think it's an 80% rate of kids who leave the faith whose parents attend church. That's actually a study by the Baptists. Okay then. But. But I will tell you, kids that watch their parents live missionally.

[Interjecting Guest]

Yeah, right.

[Todd Wagner]

Who use their Home as a mission in their neighborhood, who love and pray for their neighbors, who have their neighbors in their home, who share Christ with the kids, friends and the kids, friends, parents and others that live near them, who work through things biblically in their home and who live Christianly. Those kids see the. They see God, the power of God. Let's be honest, man, going to church is a beating. Getting up a Sunday, pulling everybody together. And if all you do is go to church most weekends when you don't go to the lake or have kids sports, those kids are like, I'm going to be just like you. I'm just not going to ruin my Sunday. But if they watch you, Ali Beth, if they watch you, just think biblically, live biblically, make decisions biblically, and they watch the blessing of that and the fruit of that. They watch you and Tim have friendship with, with people who are in darkness all of a sudden, walk in the light and they see the power of God. They want. They want to walk with that God.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

And so I would tell you that my kids saw us be rejected in our community, us being pushed out of certain circles because what we asked them to make even before they were believers, we just said, we're not, we're not going to do that. I mean, I remember when kids, whether it was spending the night sometimes or whether it was going to birthday parties, whether we're gonna go see like a James Bond movie in seventh grade.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

Like, hey, here's why we're not gonna do that. We can meet him up after the movie. And they're like, this is crazy. Nobody lives like that. And we're just like, well, okay, you know, and we, you know, I think the phrase is, you know, we're be aliens and strangers. If you don't, if you're not okay being an alien parent today, then you're not ready to be a biblical parent. And so if your kids never tell you nobody does this, then you're probably more like the world than you are like the salt and light that God says you should be. And your kids need to see you live with that conviction and grace. And at a certain point, you tell them, hey, listen, I am trying to, I'm trying to help you see the blessing of walking this way. But then you get to make your choices. And I'm gonna let you make age appropriate choices with age appropriate consequences. But my whole goal is let you fly out of this nest to live however you want.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

Now my kids, by God's grace, all made decisions that they wanted more of. Jesus than they did to the world. And it's been a blessing. My favorite quote is by Kirby when she shares her testimony. And she. Her testimony is because I saw the reality of Christ in the life of my parents and others that they were friends with, and I saw the goodness of God's way. She goes, I have more joy and less scars than my friends because at an early age, I embraced the God who gives joy, and I thought to myself, what a testimony.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yes.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

Because most of us think I don't have a great testimony unless I've got scars.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

Her testimony is, I'm not perfect. I have. I need a savior. But I have less scars because from an early age, I've seen the goodness of God, so beautiful and so kind. And so I would just say, man, parent, you got to be on. The church is a community of families.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

So you cannot ask your Christian school or your church. It can supplement you. It cannot substitute. You are dads, the priest of your home. You are the priestess of your home. Together you are forming. You know, people sometimes ask, you know, what's your wife do to me? And I. I love the phrase. I just. You know, you usually call people by their highest title, you know, and so I just said, well, she gives birth to. And shape to eternal humanity made in the image of God. What's your wife do?

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

No big deal.

[Todd Wagner]

She's a corporate attorney.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

Okay.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

I mean, again, I understand some people.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Everything small potatoes compared to that.

[Todd Wagner]

Everything.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

I mean, Ali Beth, this podcast, as amazing as it is, and. And I. We talked about this before we went on air today.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

What? I. I. When I saw what you did.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

Because this thing is. This is a service to a lot of us. You know, I love what you're doing, but you recently just stepped it back because you believe what I just said.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yep.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

You and Tim made a decision. There might be a day I'll do five days a week, but now, not now, because my primary calling.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

Is to be present with my kids.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yep.

[Todd Wagner]

So I was. I just said thank you.

[Interjecting Guest]

Right.

[Todd Wagner]

I think that your greatest episode this year has been the episode you haven't filmed.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

Because.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

So true.

[Todd Wagner]

Because what it says.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

And what it's going to produce in your kids.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Such a good way to say that.

[Todd Wagner]

Yeah.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Thank you for saying that. Can you reiterate where people can find out about the 1613 project and also Unhindered.

[Todd Wagner]

Yeah. So they're not very impressive websites, but unhindered.org is. Is where they can get A hold of me. And also the 1613 project.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

Dot com. That's a dot com. And then what I'm. What we do myself and some others that are, you know, working with me now is we just like, hey, how can we serve you? And one of the things that we're working on right now is pulling together a bunch of pastors who want to be faithful in this way and pastors and elders and just encourage each other, not form a denomination, but a network of guys that go, you know, let's remind each other.

[Interjecting Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Todd Wagner]

That we're not going to be successful because we have a building or more people. Right. The old joke is buildings, budgets and butts and seats. But I'm telling you, that's powerful. You wouldn't believe how many pastors are still driven by that. And I'm just. I just want those folks to go, hey, man, you know, And I actually, it's so funny. I finished a book four years ago that's written and I just haven't released it because when I transitioned away. But the book was. The working title was Holy Discontent and it was W H O L L Y. Right. And I was. It was really a warning to pastors if they're not doing what God wants them to do. And it was also to tell people if you aren't discontent with. With your church, if it just is satisfied with cutting a deal with you. This is. I answer some of the questions that you have in there and I probably need to push it out and just. And get it done. But yeah, I think so. 1613project.com unhindered.org and every now and they do a little podcast called the Todd Wagner Show. But if you're going to choose between that and the Ali Beth Podcast, go go to room for both.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

There's room for both. Well, Todd, thank you so much. I really just appreciate your wisdom and your encouragement. It was exactly what we need. So I appreciate you and thank you.

[Todd Wagner]

Thank you. Annabeth Sa.