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Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey
Ep 1344 | Mexican Cartels’ New Target: Evangelical Christians. Here’s What’s Happening | Ryan Brown
01:03:37
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- [00:01]
A
A lot of people think of Mexico as a popular vacation spot. They don't think about it as a hub of persecution of Christianity. And yet evangelical Christians are being persecuted on a daily basis in Mexico. Yet the church there is growing. That is the same story in violent countries like Yemen, like Syria, in North Korea, all throughout Africa. Despite intense persecution, the church of Jesus is growing. Today we've got the CEO of Open Doors, Ryan Brown here. Open Doors as an organization that resources the persecuted church all around the world. And he's going to tell us what is really going on in Mexico, in these other countries. How can we be involved in helping these Christians? This episode is brought to you by Dwell Bible. Dwell Bible is an app that I use to listen to the Bible, to read the Bible. You can do their devotionals. They have one called Worthy Work that's just for moms. That will be a huge encouragement to you. Go to dwellbible.com ally. You'll get 50% off your subscription. Dwellbible.com ally. Ryan, thanks so much for joining us. Can you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do?
- [01:17]
B
Yeah. My name is Ryan Brown and I have the privilege of overseeing the team with Open Doors us. And for those not familiar with Open Doors, we are a ministry that has its roots dating back 70 years, a gentleman by the name of Brother Andrew, who some of the viewers may be familiar with because it was a book written a number of years ago called God smuggler, which over 10 million copies of that book in print. But Brother Andrew was a young man from the Netherlands, and he and his friends at Bible college were, you know, just perplexed why they couldn't get people to show up to their meetings. And meanwhile in Poland, there was going to be a communist youth rally in which there were going to be tens of thousands of young people there. So he traveled there to find out why, what was the attraction. And during his time there, he went off the itinerary a little bit and met members of the church there. And his heart was broken to discover that they did not have access to the word of God. These were entire congregations of believers where maybe only one person would have access to the scriptures or just part of scriptures. And so he felt compelled that he needed to respond. And so he began smuggling Bibles into communist countries behind what was referred to as the Iron Curtain at that point, to a ministry that we're now working in about 80 countries around the globe where Christians are most persecuted and discriminated against because of their faith in Jesus.
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A
And does he note why people weren't going to his meetings, but the young people were showing up at these communist rallies? Like, what did he learn?
- [02:54]
B
You know, I don't know that he actually came to a conclusion on that. He did come to a conclusion though, that the church there in Poland, you know, this, what we commonly refer to as the persecuted church, they had something to offer. Because Jesus talks about a pearl of great price, about people willing to sacrifice for their faith. And what he was experiencing, there was not a lot of sacrifice associated with that. But yet he saw men and women around the globe who were willing at great cost to follow Jesus Christ. And so there are elements there that that which costs us little sometimes means little. And so he was inviting people into kinship relationship with persecuted believers as a way to even energize and to spark revival in the European context that he was working in.
- [03:51]
A
And what does open doors do today?
- [03:54]
B
Yeah, so again, coming alongside the persecuted church. And I think the thing that is maybe a little non intuitive about that is that I think that many of us, when we think of the idea of persecution, the immediate response is, well, the goal should be to end persecution, to stop persecution. The goal should be to pull people out of persecution that are experiencing that. But that's not necessarily how the Bible frames persecution. The Bible tells us the persecution will come. And when we come alongside our brothers and sisters that are experiencing persecution, they're not necessarily asking that we take their persecution away. They're not asking that they be removed. What they are asking is that we not forget them in their persecution, that we stand with them, not stand alone. They ask that we pray for them. They ask that we continue to resource them and support them so that they can stay rooted as a church in these areas that are so opposed to the message of the gospel, that they can continue to be a light in those areas that are most opposed to the message of the gospel.
- [04:59]
A
And so what kind of resources is open doors providing?
- [05:02]
B
Yeah, so it can look different because persecution looks different in different contexts. So in some places, we tend to generally categorize persecution in two different ways. One is this idea of a smash of persecution. Those are the things that I think a lot of us more intuitively gravitate towards when we think of persecution. These are things like people that are murdered or martyred for their faith.
- [05:25]
A
These are what's happening in Nigeria.
- [05:27]
B
Exactly. This is, you know, church buildings being attacked or bombed or destroyed. But there's also a very real dynamic that we refer to more as a squeeze of persecution. And this is a reality when people are denied access to education for their children, they are denied access to employment. It's a reality where life is made untenable for Christians in particular areas because of their faith. And what happens if Christians leave those areas? The church is decimated. So it can have the same impact. Whether it's through fear or intimidation, seeking to break the back of the church, or whether it's through these pressures that make life difficult. Both of those things can cause the church to come under threat in different areas. And so the way that Open Door seeks to respond is that the way that the church is asking for support in those particular areas. In areas where there is the smash of persecution, a lot of that can look like traditional, honestly relief type aid where Christians are needing access to food shelters. Many are living as internally displaced people like you mentioned in Nigeria. Another big piece is trauma counseling. You know, Christians who have experienced atrocities that I think you and I would have a difficult time even trying to fathom or wrap our mind around. And, you know, men, women and children have been through these things. And so we were able to provide counseling that, you know, rooted in the gospel but yet also allows people to go deep in processing through these things they've experienced in other areas where it's more the squeeze of persecution. You know, where Christians have been denied access to employment, we're able to offer livelihood programs where Christians can find new vocations and means to provide for their families. In places where children have been denied access to school, often able to provide educational opportunities or advocate on behalf of those children so that they can get the education that they're entitled to.
- [07:36]
A
Okay, quick pause to tell you about Share the Arrows, y'. All. The Share the Arrows Mother's Day sale is happening just for a couple more days. If you go to sharethe arrows.com and you go to buy tickets, it'll take you to Ticketmaster. At the top you'll see a little filter button. Press the filter enter in Mother's Day 20, you'll get 20% off your tickets. It's going to be amazing. October 11th and October 10th. October 10th. I knew that wasn't right. In Dallas, Texas, it's brought to you by our friends at Range Leather, Adele Natural Cosmetics, We Heart Nutrition. It's going to be amazing. Before we get back into that conversation, let me tell you about Seven Weeks Coffee. Seven Weeks Coffee is America's Pro life coffee company. They're called Seven Weeks Coffee because it's seven weeks gestation. That little baby inside the womb is just the size of a coffee bean. Yet he or she is fully worthy of life. Made in the image of God. And that's why 10% of every sale of seven weeks coffee goes to pregnancy centers across the country. They have raised well over a million dollars to save these babies. To help moms make the most life affirming choice. Mold free, pesticide free, totally clean, great tasting. We love seven weeks coffee in our home. My mom's hooked on seven weeks coffee. It's just a win all around. You can allow your coffee to serve a higher purpose. When you go to seven weeks coffee.com and use code all, you'll save 10 on your first order. Seven weeks coffee.com code Ali, Do you have a story of someone recently so people can kind of like wrap their mind around Maybe let's do one story of the squeeze of persecution, which you're right, I don't think most people are even thinking about that, especially outside of the United States. And then the smash of persecution that open doors has had the opportunity to reach and help maybe get educational opportunity. So. So we'll start with someone who maybe was in a country where they're not getting murdered, but they're getting persecuted through exclusion or discrimination.
- [09:33]
B
Yeah, I think one of those fairly close to home here, even in Mexico. I live in Arizona and Mexico, obviously very, very close and church youth groups constantly sending trips to Mexico and those types of things. But yet the realities of persecution aren't necessarily ones that, that are routinely talked about. But there are very, very real dynamics. And so especially in some of the southern areas, there's a gentleman, pastor Umberto, that down in these southern areas that he came to faith as an adult and this is a community. I think when people hear Mexico, it can be somewhat confusing because we think of it as predominantly Christian country, a Catholic country. Yet in many of these areas, the flavor of Catholicism isn't Catholicism as yours. I might know it.
- [10:29]
A
There's a lot of kind of witchcraft, correct?
- [10:33]
B
Exactly. A lot of syncretism as far as taking ancient in many cases Mayan beliefs and honestly just kind of sprinkling some Catholicism on top of it. And so when he came to faith as an adult, his community, they didn't want that. They rejected that he was, you know, the immediate reaction was they cut off his electricity and they cut off water to his house. You know, he continued in his faith. And a few other families came to faith as well. His children were told that they couldn't attend the local school. He was eventually thrown into prison on two different occasions as he continued to share his faith. But what, what is so amazing to see is that this pastor coming to faith as an adult, he had lived some rough years. And he said his initial response when he received persecution was, if you're coming swinging at me, I'm going to come back swinging at you. And he could have pulled it off. He was a tough guy. But as he began to dive into some of the training and we have curriculum that we walk people through as persecution preparedness and began recognizing the teaching of Jesus that you love your enemies, pray for those who persecuted you, he began to realize that his natural response, that he needed to keep that in check with his new biblical worldview. And so he began to respond in love, trying to reach out to his neighbors. And as the community was continuing to try to amp up, ramp up what they were going to do to try to drive him back to his ancestral faith, there was a meeting of the community one night. He was on the outside looking in and a gentleman raised his hand and said, pastor Humberto and several others that have come to faith, he said, they're not going to come back. They're not going to abandon their newfound faith. But you know what, they're good neighbors, so let's just leave them alone. Let's just let them be. And so the community decided to do that. And what happened is over a period of time is more and more people began to see, you know, how they were living their lives in this community. More and more of these people that had been persecutors began coming to faith in Christ more and more, until the point where it became the majority of the community was Christian. Now this community, I was down there for one of the ways that this church has funded. A lot of the work that they are doing is through a bakery. And they're not just working in their own community, but they are actually. They've planted churches in 11 surrounding communities that are also antagonistic towards the Christian faith. And so we were able to partner with them. And they've actually launched a commercial grade bakery now that they're utilizing to fund these, this work that they're doing. But you know, it's amazing to see, as men and women respond, that, you know, even with that squeeze of persecution, they can continue to be a light in the dark.
- [13:47]
A
Yeah.
- [13:48]
B
Now you asked about the smash of persecution and what that looks like.
- [13:53]
A
Yeah. If I could just, if I could say one thing for my audience here. Obviously here in America, we are so incredibly blessed by a constitution and constitutional rights, but we are always needing attorneys to fight on behalf of Christians like Jack Phillips and Colorado, so many other Christians, First Liberty alliance, defending freedom. They're all people who are trying to defend these freedoms. And even though it's not quite the same as somewhere like Mexico or other of these squeeze countries, I do, like, want to encourage my audience, yes, of course. To think about the persecuted Christians abroad, but also to realize, like, we have a concept on the show called sharing the arrows, that when you see a fellow Christian who is being condemned, lambasted, excluded for their faith, rather than us saying, okay, you know, I'm so glad that's not me. And now I know not to speak out. Now I know not to do that. You stand up and you say, you know what? I also believe that I believe the same thing. So whatever arrows you're launching toward me, you or whatever arrows you're launching toward her, you can launch toward me, too. And we encourage prayer, support, helping that person's business. And it sounds a lot like on a much smaller and different scale and an Americanized way, some of what you're doing, you're not necessarily going down there, and. And as you said, trying to end all persecution, you are sharing the arrows. You're going down there and you're saying, you're not alone. And let us give you what you need to persist, what you need to stand up. You're not necessarily always removing them from the situation. And it sounds like through that, God has given the space that is needed for others to see the light of Christ and to become Christian. That is a really unique and different perspective that I feel like we don't hear about a lot. But I just wanted to give some, like, you know, more American in context for my listeners, that we do a very small form of that. And it sounds like what y' all are doing on a bigger and more tangible scale.
- [15:51]
B
Absolutely. Well, I think in that American context, it's. I think in many cases, as we've engaged in the conversation of persecution, it's whether that be, you know, at a macro scale like in Nigeria or even, you know, in a smaller case like we might experience here, there can often be a fear associated with that and this idea that, okay, we need to avoid that. But what I've heard from so many of our brothers and sisters around the globe is that Christ is present in their persecution. They are not alone. Christ is with them, and his Holy Spirit strengthens them in the midst of those things. And so I was humbled by a gentleman I met from Sudan a little over a year ago. And you Know, this was Sudan, for those not familiar, a country that's just been ripped apart by civil war. This is a country, you know, where Christians can very much experience the smash of persecution as well. You know, they not only are navigating, you know, the incredible humanitarian crisis that's going on because of multiple years of civil war, but there is also an antagonism towards, specifically for those of a Muslim background, faith that have come to faith where people will be ostracized by their communities, by their families. And that was the story of this gentleman that I had the opportunity to meet. He had come to faith as an adult as well and was immediately cut off by his family, was ostracized by his community. As he began to share his newfound faith with his community, he was thrown into prison. And as he was describing that prison experience to me, he said that at times they kept him in a cell that was so he didn't even have enough room to lay down at night to sleep. He said other times they kept him in a cell that was completely devoid of any light, not just natural sunlight, but as well, any type of light bulb or artificial light was complete and utter darkness as they just sought to break his back. And I had been studying the Sermon on the Mount and Jesus says, blessed are the persecuted. And you know, my definition of blessed isn't necessarily that didn't really align, you know, the experiences that he was describing as being blessed. And so I asked him about that and he said that, you know, I would not have. He said, I wouldn't have chosen these experiences. But he said, I am thankful for them. He said, I'm thankful because, you know, when I was in the darkness of that cell, the light of Christ was burning for me, brighter in ways than I had ever experienced before. When I was in that cramped, confined, I knew that the Christ was said in terms of my faith. He said, I went into prison as a kitten, but I came out as a lion. And again, the presence of Christ is not devoid. So whether it's the pressure that we feel from a co worker or things like that that might ridicule our faith, or whether it's a Christian in Nigeria that is rightfully fearful for their life, Christ isn't absent, he is present.
- [19:12]
A
Next sponsor is a very fitting sponsor, and that is Voice of the Martyrs. Voice of the Martyrs also exists to help the persecuted church. And they have a resource that you can get right now if you go to vom.org ally they've got all kinds of books like Hearts on Fire, all kinds of resources for you to be able to connect with the stories of Christians around the world who are being persecuted, who are risking everything for their faith. If you want to know more about Voice of the Martyrs, how to get involved. Very similar, very similar origin story. They were missionaries in the Nazi world and the communist world where the Bible and Christianity were banned. They pushed through that and now they have this incredible organization that continues to equip the church. Go to vom.orgali that's mom.org ally. Tell us about Syria because I noticed on your you have a world watch list open doors does and these are countries where persecution is very heavy and Syria has gone up in its slots. So why is that?
- [20:22]
B
Yeah, it was one of the largest single year jumps that we had seen and certainly in recent history. With that report, it had been number 18 last year and jumped up to number six. And to unpack that, some you may be familiar was the Assad regime had been in power for roughly 50 years or so. And it was not easy for Christians in those areas. There were certain parts of the country where Christians were relatively left alone or things along those lines. There was certainly for those who again converted from a Muslim background, there were hostilities and there were difficulties. But what happened? And as the Assad regime was taken out of power in hts, which is a group that has ties to Al Qaeda and a history there, as they step forward, they have been very, very vocal in proclaiming their intention for religious freedom and liberties and for people to worship according to conscience. But in the midst of this regime change, the rule of law was virtually non existent in some places. And yeah, it was very, very difficult. And the extremists have definitely seen that as an opportunity to step into the void there. And so while some of these historical things have continued to be present, what was the dramatic changer for Syria this last year were the incidences of violence and how that persecution. If we go back a year on the world watch list, no Christians had lost their life that we had record of in Syria that year. This year there were 27 that were killed because of their faith. 22 of those were killed in a specific church bombing. That was just an absolute horrific event. When you take a look at the number of churches that had been destroyed or vandalized or damaged, you know, in our previous reporting period, we had recorded four that we could substantiate and verify through our on the ground presence. You know, this last year, there were over 100 of those. And so while all of these realities that, you know, made Life difficult and where Christians were experiencing persecution, you know, continue to be present. We amped on top of that, threw on top of that, unfortunately, an increase in violence. There is the actual risk that comes with violence itself. But that violence has a psychological impact as well on the church where people that had lived relatively and safely and suddenly where that relative safety is no longer there, it's taken away. That has a huge impact as a result. We've seen that church in Syria over the recent years. It has gone from hundreds of thousands have left. This last year, we estimate there's about 300,000 Christians left remaining in Syria. So it has become a remnant, a small church that remains, that has been profoundly impacted by these changes in the regime.
- [23:46]
A
And I don't know if you can answer this because I know that the work that is being done by those who work for, for open doors can be very dangerous. And so you have to have, you know, some privacy in that. But is there anything you can tell us just about how you get into these countries? I imagine it is very difficult. There's a lot of peril that you have to overcome. Or is it just communication with the Christians already in Syria? What does that look like?
- [24:15]
B
Yeah, so it's a great question because we are not, not a traditional missionary sending organization. You know, if people go to our website, they're not going to sign up for the two week trip to, you know, go visit these places. You know, we have a rich history and a rich legacy of relationships. We talk about presence, ministry on the ground. And so, you know, Brother Andrew, you know, our founder lived that out that, you know, he sought to be present with folks. And so we come alongside the church that is there with Christians that are there seeking to support them are men and women that love their countries despite the intense persecution that they experience. But these are men and women that are committed and believe that there is a future and that there can be a hope in some of these places that are so opposed to their faith. So when we come alongside, it is coming alongside those deep relationships that have been forged over years. Those aren't easy to create. Those take time. You know, many times those with nefarious intent will position themselves as like a new convert to faith to find out who is who and where people are meeting and those types of things. So there are many of these places where we have to exercise extreme caution and extreme care. But it is all birthed out of that fabric and that foundation of relationship and trust that gets built over time.
- [25:50]
A
And it's a similar story in Yemen, I think that they're number three on the list. Tell us what's going on there. I know that y' all are kind of launching a campaign to shine a light on what Christians are enduring in these two countries.
- [26:01]
B
Yeah. So it's really throughout Sub Saharan Africa that the campaign that we're focused on. But Yemen in particular is a country that, you know, unfortunately, has been in those top spots in the world watch list for. For many years. This is a country where there has been civil war and great instability. You can only have so many years of that before it starts to create humanitarian crisis. And Yemen is in the throes of that right now that there are, you know, it's a dire humanitarian crisis. What's going on in Yemen? The Christians in those contexts, there's an additional vulnerability. Obviously, they experience the same hardships that all experience because of the violence of civil war, because of the lack of food, the lack of water, lack of healthcare. They experience all of those types of things. But in this area where Christianity, in this case I'm talking specifically evangelical Christianity, is not, in essence, kind of an authorized religion. It's not a religion that that's allowed for people to worship according to their conscience in those areas. These individuals are typically last in line when it comes to receiving aid, when it comes to receiving support. The powers that be that are struggling for power, they don't gain favor with the populace by coming to the aid of Christians. And so Christians have an incredible vulnerability that all of those in Yemen are experiencing. But you add up the faith component on top of that, and it's a difficult, difficult situation for the Christians in Yemen. And so, you know, multiple years where this has been compounding. And, you know, the Christians in Yemen, it is a remnant that continues to persist there. We have a gentleman in so many of these places. You're absolutely right that because of security, there are times where I'm telling a story where I can't even identify the name of the country, let alone the individual, for fear of exposing them to greater risk. But we do have a gentleman in Yemen that specifically stood up this last year and said, no, I want the world to see my face. I want the world to know my face. Name a gentleman by the name of Awis. And he has spoken and recorded videos that we've been able to share with the rest of the world. But what we see happening right now in Yemen, what we see happening in Nigeria, what we see happening in Sudan, these things are happening throughout Sub Saharan Africa. And what we've seen over Multiple years is that again, there can be a squeeze and a smash of persecution in so many of these places. But the smash has just grown exponentially. The levels of violence that are being experienced continues to mount.
- [29:13]
A
And why is that? Do we know?
- [29:17]
B
As far as. I mean, ultimately, when you go to the Bible, it is sin that I think there's also a dynamic at play here that the enemy doesn't oppose that which is no threat. We could end Christian persecution tomorrow if we just said, let's lay down this Great Commission thing to go into all the world and make disciples. We're not going to do that. We're opting out. If the church were to take that posture, you know, Christian persecution would end. But the fact that the church is not doing that. The fact that church is advancing. There are many missiologists and many around the world that say that, you know, in coming years there will be, you know, the greatest number of Christians in the world will be in Africa. The Church is advancing in Africa. The church is growing many years.
- [30:14]
A
Is it mostly, I'm just curious, is it mostly even evangelical Christianity? Catholicism, Orthodox?
- [30:19]
B
Yeah, so there are all of those threads come into play. But there's great growth in the Evangelical Church. There are also growth, though, in some of these other areas as well. It can be very, very localized as far as where some of that growth is. And there are areas where the Orthodox Church is continuing to be a strong and viable presence there. But, you know, many would say that the, you know, the center of Christianity in coming years will be Africa rather than North America, where it had historic, you know, over recent years has been, or, you know, Europe prior to that. That, you know, the face and the heart of, you know, the global church is increasingly in Africa. And I don't think that's coincidental as far as why Africa is seeing so much persecution. Much of that persecution in this area has taken the form of Islamic extremism. And so again, these aren't necessarily moderate Muslims. These are the extremists that are seeking to wipe out Christianity. That the growth of Christianity, that's seen as a threat. Seeking to see those extremist ideologies become a caliphate type state, where that becomes the. The way of life for, for all in the land.
- [31:47]
A
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- [33:14]
B
Yeah, so the country that we have placed on the top of our world watch list and this, you know, we've been publishing this data for about 30 years now, you know, and the country that has been on the top the majority of those years has been North Korea. And this is a country for those not familiar with the realities there, that you and your entire family, if you're even found to be in possession of a Bible, you and your entire family are likely going to be thrown into a concentration camp, a work camp for the rest of your days, never to be heard of, never to be seen again. To be identified as a Christian, to be found as a Christian is the equivalent of a death sentence in this area. The North Korean government would see the state as the highest form of authority that where all allegiance lies. And so for Christians who have a higher authority than the state, Christians are immediately seen as empty enemies of the state. They're assumed to be enemies of the state or in some cases assumed to be allies of the west that might have different political intentions or things of that nature. So Christians in these areas face dire, dire circumstances. So North Korea would be the place that we would place on the top of the list where it is most difficult and most dangerous for a Christian to be.
- [34:52]
A
And I read also that executions there for Your faith have reportedly increased over the past several years. So even though it has been dangerous for a very long time, it seems like the smash is getting greater there too.
- [35:05]
B
Yeah. In many cases, these send shockwaves. The very public executions, very public awareness. And in many cases, if they feel like, okay, it's been a little too long, we need to remind people that we're in charge. We need to remind people what the consequences are. We can see these upticks in these very public types of executions.
- [35:32]
A
Yeah. I read a book several years ago called Nothing to Envy, and it was just a journalist account of what it's like in North Korea and what it's like for children there. I mean, it's just beyond, I think, anything that I can truly comprehend. That book was very disturbing. But I do encourage people to read it and just realize that there are image bearers of God who are enduring this every single day, and in North Korea who truly have no connection to the outside world at all. And yet the fact that the Holy Spirit is able to intervene and intercede and that it truly is for the Lord like an open door that he can go through whatever door he wants to, that shows the power of God. Because how. It's hard to even imagine how it's even possible for someone to know and believe in the Gospel. And for us just to realize that those people who know that they will get executed, they will get thrown into a prison camp, they will be separated from their family. The love of Jesus and the desire for the gospel is so strong there that those people are willing to risk everything for it. And that's not just something that happened 500 years ago or in Nero's. That's something that's happening right now.
- [36:42]
B
Absolutely. And, you know, you talk about the heart of these men and women. You know, a couple of things that I think just illustrate that so well is, you know, one of the ways that we support Christians. And, you know, There are about 400,000 Christians in North Korea.
- [36:57]
A
Wow.
- [36:58]
B
Incredible. And it is growing. But one of the ways that we support is we are able to broadcast via radio ministries across the messages across the border.
- [37:10]
A
And I was so from South Korea.
- [37:13]
B
Yeah. Or in China as well, depending upon the locations. The North Korean Christians, one of the things that they had asked in those broadcasts was to get information on Christians elsewhere in the globe that were experiencing persecution because they wanted to be able to pray for their brothers and sisters. They're on top of the world watch list, but yet they wanted to be praying Ukraine for others around the globe. That were experiencing persecution. There's also, you know, we are able to operate a series of safe houses not in North Korea, but across the border where, you know, in China, where, you know, individuals are able to come be nursed back to, you know, physical health. Because as you mentioned, I mean, the reality is for all, for most North Koreans, you know, that there are humanitarian and lack of food and those types of things. And so we're able to nurse people back to physical health, emotional health and spiritual health. It has again, just humbles me to see that there are men and women that have, in essence escaped from North Korea, have come to these safe houses, been nursed back to health. And their goal and their intent in what they have done is to go back to North Korea so they can continue to minister rather than, you know, like I think many of us would say, well, gosh, I'm free, I'm out of there, thank God. They've instead taken a posture of how can I be equipped so that I can go back and continue to share the gospel with my friends and neighbors.
- [38:51]
A
Are there any countries that you find surprises people here in America when you say, yeah, this country makes it hard to be a Christian? I think all of us, even if we don't know the extent of persecution in North Korea or Yemen or Nigeria, it doesn't surprise us because we know communism, secularism reigns in North Korea. Then we know Islam reigns sub Saharan Africa in the Middle East. But are there any nations that you wish people knew to pray for? Because it's just not as. It's not as well known that Christians are persecuted there.
- [39:24]
B
Yeah, I think one of those, I mean, honestly is Mexico. Even we mentioned a few moments ago, I mean, how many people vacation in Mexico or go there. But there are realities of persecution there. I mean, there's a couple of drivers of persecution there. One, again, like I mentioned, Pastor Umberto and some of those traditional faiths, ancestral type faiths, where those who come to faith in Christ can be seen as an opposition. And so there can be hostility there. But one of the very also present realities there are with the cartels and organized crime because just simply stated that the Christian church is bad for business. Whether it be young men that are not getting drafted into the ranks of the cartel or folks that are being pulled away from the vices of drug use or alcohol that so many of them make their living on, Many can see of these cartel leaders see the Christian church as a threat. And so they will look to, at times, strike with violence. I met a pastor this Was in northern Mexico, so not far from the border. And he was pastoring congregations where the cartels had basically come to town and said, we're setting up shops. You know, pastor and men and women of the church, you can step in line, you can grow what we tell you to grow. You can help get things from point a to point b as and when we tell you to do them, or you can suffer the consequences. And there was a portion of the church there that said, okay, we acquiesce, we fall in line. We don't think that we can stand against this. But there was another portion of the church that said, no, we won't go along with it. And, you know, to make an example of these folks, that the cartels came in one night and with guns a blazing and, you know, forced people out with the clothes on their back. They corralled them in a school building and, you know, held them captive there, wouldn't allow them to escape. Wanted people to see that, you know, they were being held there. You know, men, women and child. There was one bucket in the middle of the room to utilize as the bathroom for a period of 10 days. No water provided. They had to drink water from puddles. And the cartels are saying, this is what awaits those that stand against us, the pastor. Those are the realities that they're having to pastor their congregations through as far as, what does that look like? And so, yeah, I think that that is one that's not too talked about.
- [42:20]
A
What is the circle of silence?
- [42:22]
B
Yeah, so that is there's an area of about 7, 8 states that geographically actually form a circle. And, you know, Christianity there, while, you know, most of us think of. Of Mexico as a Christian or Catholic nation, this is an area where those faith traditions, Christianity and Catholicism are not heavily represented, represent a very small minority of the population. And so there is not a strong presence of the church there to vocalize and to make the message of the gospel known. So that's one area of silence. But then again, these forces that come into play that would seek to silence the church that is there, the remnant that is continuing to be active and looking to proclaim the gospel, There are forces that would seek to silence that, Whether it be the cartels or whether it be the traditional religions in the air area, they. They want no presence of Christianity there, that they want it to be silenced.
- [43:41]
A
Next sponsor is alliance defending freedom, fighting on the front lines for our first amendment rights, the rights of women and girls everywhere. When there is a Christian who is being persecuted for their faith, Unjustly, unconstitutionally, you can bet Alliance Defending Freedom and their fleet of top notch attorneys are going to be there defending them, which in turn defends our rights and defends the rights of our children, our children's children. They're going all the way to the Supreme Court protecting our religious liberty and our freedom of speech. We're celebrating America's 250th year. We love our Constitution. We love our freedoms. This conversation should remind us of that. ADF is making sure that those freedoms are secure. If you go to joinadf.com ally they just want you to sign up to pray. Will you sign up to pray for our country? To pray? Pray for the security of the rights that we have been given in our Constitution. Praise God for them. Joinadf.com ally. And I've seen reports of South America and the religious makeup changing. It has been for a very long time, predominantly Catholic, kind of similar to Mexico. So some syncretism there, some mix in with some voodoo and some witchcraft practices. But there seems to be a movement towards evangelicalism in South America. Can you talk a little bit more about that?
- [45:09]
B
Yeah, I think similar to Africa, there are these places where the church is continuing to grow. You know, the Christian church. In many places in South America that is the case. I mean, historically people have sent missions, long term missionaries there for years and Bible colleges and different types of trainings and things that have continued to lay foundations for the work that is happening. But I think what all of these mission works desire to see see is when that growth is locally owned, when that growth is being held by believers that are there and are looking to grow and expand the church. And despite the opposition that many of them face, we see that. We do see a church that is present, a church that is not just seeking to revel in anonymity or just looking to hide in the shadows. But a church is saying that no, we're to be a city on a hill. We are image bearers of Christ. We have a light that our darkened communities desperately need.
- [46:30]
A
And you know, there's a lot of debate that I see about how Christians are treated in Israel specifically. Is Israel on the list of nations where Christians are persecuted?
- [46:43]
B
It is not. Israel doesn't make that top 50. I will say that. And this is illustrative of this idea that persecution never exists in a vacuum, that there will be societal factors, there will be geopolitical factors, there will be all of these different things that get intertwined into that reality. And you know, there is a church, you know, The Big Sea Church, you know, in these areas that has felt neglected. It has not necessarily been the type of persecution that we've seen in other places. But there's a church under threat, certainly in these areas that as the hostilities, as the instability, you know, without being political. There's churches in areas of Gaza that are saying, you know, put your politics aside. We're Christian brothers and sisters. You know, don't leave us neglected. Don't. Yeah, don't ignore us.
- [47:50]
A
And don't just say, well, I'm on this side of this political issue, so I'm going to ignore the plight of Christians in Gaza or in any place, because it really does go beyond that. And our affiliation with them transcends our politics.
- [48:03]
B
Absolutely. Absolutely. I have no doubt that even in the times of the early church, in the Book of Acts, as they were mobilizing resources from one place to another to support those Christians that were experiencing hunger, I'm sure that there are all sorts of geopolitical things at play there too, that the church recognized that, no, those things need to take a second tier of priority. Not that those things go away or that we completely ignore them because we do want to be voices of justice in those areas as well, but we can't allow those as an excuse to ignore the greater issues totally.
- [48:43]
A
I've heard reports that Muslims in the Middle east and Africa, there are a number of them. I can't say it's a huge number. How much much it is, but turning to Christ. And obviously we know that the penalties, especially for those who leave Islam and become Christian, are very, very high. But is that something that you're seeing, that Muslims are becoming Christian in these places?
- [49:02]
B
We are. And ironically, it's in some of the areas as well where we hear about much of the extremists. You know that. And it's for those who are more moderate Muslims, as they have been confronted with these ideologies of the extremists, they haven't known what to do with that. They don't believe it. They don't believe what the extremists are saying. And so for many of them, that's set them on a path of discovery. And we are hearing, hearing and experiencing many stories in which folks that have, in essence, been disillusioned by the extremist ideologies that they're hearing around them and are coming to faith in Christ because of that. There was a gentleman that I met a couple years ago now, and he was the son of an imam and a Muslim ruler. And you know, he was being trained to take on mantles of leadership there and was sent to Germany, in essence, as kind of Islamic missionary to better understand the enemy. And as he arrived there and began to engage with some of the Christians, he realized that the stories I've been told of who these people are, they're not true. And he began to question everything. And he spiraled downwards into all sorts of drug abuse, alcohol abuse. And he said he had hit bottom. And one night he was just praying. He said, God, if you're even real, show yourself to me. And that night, over a period of a couple of nights, he had a dream. And, you know, this was a dream in which he was walking down the streets, and there was a shopkeeper that said, hey, come into my shop. Come into my shop. And he came into the shop, and the tables were just filled with gold and jewels and those types of things. And the shopkeeper said, take these. These are for you. Take them. And so, you know, he filled up his bags and the dream, he's walking down the street so thankful that, you know, he's, I'm rich. I'm rich. I'm rich. And. And then his roommate woke him up, and he was so disappointed to be back into his everyday life that the next night he had a dream. And he was standing in a throne room, and there was a gentleman that he recognized was the shopkeeper. And in this context, he realized that that person was Jesus. And Jesus said, I'm giving you the riches of the kingdom of heaven. Come to me. You know, for those of a Muslim faith, they don't have the same type of assurance of salvation that we as Christians do. That, you know, they're the only way to guarantee your salvation is to die in Jihad. And so beyond that, it's really this preponderance of your works. You know, as far as, you know, have you earned a right for eternal glory? And so he again, he was living a life of brokenness and debauchery at the time. And as Jesus said, come to me, he said, I can't. I'm sinful. And he said, Jesus said to him, I forgive you. And he said, he looked down upon himself and he said he can't find the words. But he said, it's like his sin. Sin was a physical manifestation on his body that just started to peel away, and he had his fresh, clean skin underneath it. And so the next day, he woke up and said, okay, well, I need to start talking to some of these Christians that I've been trying to learn from. In order to know how I can attack them, I need to learn from them. And so he became a believer. To this day he was not able to return home because of his faith. It became found. And because of the prominent position that his family had, he came under fire. And there have been fatwas that have been issued, basically a calling for his death and execution, not just for him, but for his wife as well as his newborn son. And so, you know, the church is growing in these areas and we are seeing that.
- [54:00]
A
Last sponsor for the day is Shopify. Okay, if you've got a side hustle or maybe it's your main gig and you are selling products, maybe you're an artist, you're a business, you're selling merchandise like we do, then you can do what we do and use Shopify. Shopify is a really easy way to sell your stuff online. They make it so, so easy. You don't have to be a tech whiz in order to use Shopify. They've got E Commerce down pat. They make it so simple. They help you with product descriptions, your pricing, all of that. It could not be easier. So you can actually get back to doing what you want to do. Why you got into the business that you do, whether it's creating, whatever it is, Shopify makes that easier and it makes it easier for you to make money doing what you do. Go to shopify.com ally it's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial@shopify.com ally that's shopify.com ally. I've heard a lot of stories about Muslims specifically seeing God in dreams or seeing Jesus in dreams, which is just interesting. It's not something that we talk a lot about in the evangelical world, especially in my reformed Baptist tradition tradition. But the truth is, is that God is going to do what he wants to do and the means that he chooses to draw his sheep to himself. And God can do anything. I do think it's interesting how he seems to manifest himself in certain ways, in certain cultures, at certain times and in others. But God's gonna do what he has to do to make sure that his sheep hear his voice. And that's something that I take away from what you're saying is that God, gosh, God is so faithful and relentless that there is nothing that can impede his will. There's nothing that can stop him from gathering his flock. And then also just the common theme that I'm seeing, that Christianity is seen as a Boil on the back of tyrants. We are seen as the obstacle to corruption, and we are very inconvenient to bad powers and always has been, from Nero to today, Jesus himself. And that even, you know, that's the pattern. It's like Christians speak truth, they kill us. The church grows. Speak truth, kill, church grows. And you would think that, you know, eventually we would be extinguished, but the gates of hell can't prevail against it.
- [56:33]
B
We see that every day. We do. And perhaps it's a beautiful irony that the things that this world would most seek to do to destroy the church, it would most seek to destroy faith in Christ. Not only is he present in those things, but even those things bend their knee to Christ and his purposes. God, Gosh, Death itself was sin's crowning achievement, but yet God utilized the death of his Son to create atonement for all of us. So not even the crowning achievement of sin, even that has to bow its knee before the lordship of Christ.
- [57:20]
A
And none of that is true without the resurrection.
- [57:22]
B
Amen.
- [57:23]
A
The resurrection is where we find hope in the midst of persecution and martyrdom. Because if Jesus conquered death and he gives us the authority to do so, then we know that we get to be with him forever. And one day, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Tell me just the immediate action step that someone can take. They're listening to this and they're like, okay, I want to get involved. What can they do? How can they get involved in open doors?
- [57:50]
B
Yeah. One of the first things I would point people to right now is we have launched. And this is not just open doors that has launched this. This is in response to the pastors on the ground that we have the privilege of working with in Africa. One of the things that they vocalized to us a few years ago is that, you know, the persecution that we are experiencing, we feel like the world doesn't know. We feel like the world is unaware. You. You know, I spent some time this last year with a pastor who is from Nigeria who spent the last 15 years of his life trying to tell the broader world about the realities of what is going on, just to be routinely dismissed and people doubting the word that he says. And so what our brothers and sisters have said is that they feel alone, that they feel like, you know, it's one thing for politicians to ignore and to turn away. It's another thing for their brothers and sisters in Christ to be unaware or to turn their eye. And so we have, in partnership with Pastors throughout the continent of Africa have launched an Arise Africa initiative in which we've collected a little over 500,000 signatures right now. Our goal is by November to collect a million signatures. Signatures. And there's really kind of two goals from this initiative. One of those is that we will take this petition to the un, to the European Union, to the African Union, as well as within our own State Department relationships there to let people know that this is important, that there are men and women around the globe that are aware of what's going on in Africa. And we don't want to be silent. We want to share the arrows with our brothers and sisters. That is one goal of that petition. To say that I stand in solidarity and to raise that awareness to elected officials and calling them to be aware of this more broadly defined freedom of religious belief as it relates to policy of state, as it relates to international aid and those types of. Of things. But beyond that, and I would say even more important, what this petition seeks to do is it allows the church in Africa to know we're not forgotten. It allows the church in Africa to know that there are. Our hope is to a million brothers and sisters that are saying, we're aware and we're standing with you. We're going to lift you up in prayer. We're going to stand with you in that. Again, the thing that our brothers and sisters most ask for, not to end their persecution, not to pull them out from persecution, but to pray. To pray and be present with them in that. So that would be a very practical step that anybody can take is just to go online and to sign that petition and say, yeah, I'll let my voice and my name be counted.
- [60:54]
A
Yeah. Well, we'll put the link in the description of this episode so people can easily find it. And of course, just joining in prayer and, you know, it's easy to be focused on what's right in front of us. And God cares about those things, too. He cares about what happens here in the United States too. But you know, Jesus says, whatever you do for the least of these my brothers, fellow Christians, you do unto me. God really cares. And when we're instructed not to forget those in prison, yes, it's important to remember everyone in prison. But specifically that passage is talking about Christians, Christians around the world who are being persecuted. So this is really important to God that we don't forget about these vulnerable people and our prayers and our resourcing. So thank you so much for what you do and thank you for joining us today.
- [61:41]
B
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. No. It's a privilege to do so. And I've seen time and time again that, you know, so many times we can create this dichotomy of there and here. But Christ has one church. We're all part of one church around the globe. And there is something beautiful that happens when we all come to the table together collectively, our brothers and sisters. I think one of the greatest ways to spark revival at a church here in the United States is to actually engage with the persecuted around the globe. There are stories of faith and conviction and courage that just inspire us to take our own faith seriously. To. To. To be willing to act on that and to see, you know, is my faith a pearl of great price? Is it something that I am really, truly willing to. To. To pursue above all else?
- [62:31]
A
Amen. Well, thank you so much.