← Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey
Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey
Ep 1351 | We Need This Wake-Up Call Before the Midterms | Kevin Roberts
00:57:41
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- [00:01]
A
After Charlie Kirk was assassinated, the right almost immediately fractured. Now we have all these different factions, and it's hard to know what the future is of conservatism. What is the future of America? Do the midterms even matter? Today we've got the president of the Heritage Foundation, Kevin Roberts, to give us the lay of the land, give us some action steps, and to help us know what's next and how we can get involved. You're gonna love this episode and be so encouraged and educated by it. This episode is brought to you by friends at Good ranchers. Go to good ranchers.com, use code ALI at checkout. That's good ranchers.com code ALLY. Kevin Roberts, thanks so much for joining me. I really appreciate it.
- [00:50]
B
It is a pleasure. You know that all of us at Heritage think the world of you. Thanks for watching.
- [00:54]
A
Well, likewise. The feeling is mutual. So I thought there's no better person to ask about the current state, state of conservatism. And to me, it is not really a simple question, especially post Charlie's assassination. There's just a lot of, I don't know, growing pains, dissensions, fractures going on. So what is your lay of the land from your vantage point?
- [01:16]
B
Lay of the land in sort of two big ways. Number one is a lot, maybe most of those pain points, fissures come from the conservative movement growing. And so one thing that's a silver lining to what is some very frustrating and unseemly commentary, especially online, is that it's because it's growing. And therefore, and you know, I'm going to look at this as a historian, when any ideological movement grows, that the proverbial problem of a big tent becomes really difficult. But the second thing that I would say to tell you something that you and your audience know well is that this is aggravated by social media. Not everyone on social media, but the fact that we can fire off something without fully thinking about it then just inflames those tensions. And so the upshot for me, for us at Heritage, because our ethos is not just to add and multiply, to make the movement bigger, but to make it more cohesive, is to try to appeal to those principles, those concepts that cohere almost everyone, we might have some differences of opinion on how we get there. For example, Heritage's family policy paper, we happen to think it's really bright, right? Otherwise we wouldn't have published it. There are some friends in the movement who don't love the idea, but we credit them for how they've gone about the discourse of that right, which is.
- [02:35]
A
And what is Heritage's position on that?
- [02:36]
B
Our position is being conservative, not libertarian, that there is a role for government to help spur greater marriage and birth rates. And there are some policy specifics there that would cost us some money. That's the bottom line. Right. And that's the rub. But a very friendly rubber between us and some thoughtful friends on the right. And I use that example to offer a hopeful example of how it's still possible for us as a conservative family to have productive conversations, not for the sake of destroying each other, but for the sake of saying, as these friends on the right have said, we credit Heritage for starting this conversation. I think my colleagues are owed that credit. But we want to refine some of these proposals this way. Those are the conversations we need to have about really real policy substance that affects everyday Americans. And that might be the sort of rule of thumb that we talk about real things rather than just sort of ephemeral things that are easy to opine about.
- [03:31]
A
Yeah, There was this back and forth speaking of social media between Matt Walsh and Nick Fuentes. And I wouldn't typically quote Nick Fuentes, but I actually think his position here is representative of what some people think. So it's kind of worth noting that Matt argued that if we're going to have a dividing line on what's considered the right, that he believes, as I do, it should be that those who believe in natural marriage are willing to fight for it, who believe in the cohesion of the family and who fight for the unborn, that those are essential allies, that we can disagree on some other things or how to go about protecting those things. But those are the core issues. And Nick Fuentes replied, no, it has to be America first versus Israel first. And again, I think that that is actually of what some people on the right think. So what do you make of that? Back and forth?
- [04:23]
B
On the substance of the ideas? I've learned not to talk about personalities. Right. On the substance of the ideas. The idea that we're going to define conservative conservatism primarily by our belief in the family being the most important institution is correct. That's always been the case for conservatives. Obviously, we can expand the movement to cover some other policy objectives, but this increasingly popular criticism of the state of Israel on the right is something that's problematic. And it's problematic on a couple of levels. First of all, let me be sure that people understand we can distinguish between political Zionism, which is our fervent belief in the state of Israel's right to exist. Right. And theological Zionism, which is not adhered to by every Christian. And that's okay. Certainly at Heritage, that's what we believe. But on the right, particularly among young men who follow certain podcasters, there is this desire to create this division between what might be America first and what might be a smart foreign policy regarding other countries. On the facts of the matter. Just to delve into this in one more level of detail, Israel as a state is a model ally for the United States. It's a stronger military ally than Great Britain has been. It can at least field an army, which would be questionable, unfortunately, about the British. We think we have an emerging, equally strong ally in the Far east, in Japan. And in a lot of ways, Japan in similar ways could be equally effective in the Far east as Israel is in the Mideast. The reason that I say all of this detail is focusing on the substance of the matter allows us to see the certain questions, whether it's the family, whether it's Israel, whether it's other questions in the movement, with a lot more clarity, rather than just using it as a trope, which I'm afraid sometimes that it is. Ultimately, how do we get past this? We talk about the substance and we welcome the debate as long as the debate is within the confines of acceptable conversation. Right. And what we're trying to do at Heritage is have those family conversations rather than say, oh, what you're seeing online, people don't really believe. No, some of them do believe it. And it's very important that we engage with them so that we can, as we would like to do at Heritage, convince them of the right policy proposals.
- [06:39]
A
And when you're talking about the limits of acceptable conversation, I think what you're saying, but correct me if I wrong, okay, yes, we can talk about some policy disagreements that we might have. Or maybe you're someone who believes that we give too much, we give too much support to countries in general. Or maybe you have some questions about the alliance that we have with Israel or other nations. The conversations that are no longer productive are those that are like, well, all Jewish people are responsible for XYZ or Jews run the world, or the Zionist lobby has disproportionate, you know, power and is persuading all of these podcasters and politicians. Is that kind of how you're distinguishing between productive, acceptable conversation and then the conversations that kind of devolve into conspiracy, et cetera?
- [07:21]
B
It is. And that's probably the easiest way to describe that red line facts or even theories versus conspiracy theories. And it can be very difficult to figure out what someone's motives are. But when people online are saying that Donald Trump, of all people was provoked into this current conflict with Iran because of Israel, that's just absurd on its face, if for no other reason than knowing how Donald Trump operates. Right. It doesn't mean that we can't have a conversation about the future of America's alliances with other countries, about the wisdom of certain policies of the Israeli government. But having those conversations, which are legitimate conversations, actually is a way of giving oxygen to the kinds of discourse we need to be engaged in on the facts and even some of the well informed theories, rather than giving oxygen to the conspiracy theories.
- [08:22]
A
All right, I've got a new sponsor today, and that is Penny Pangolin. These are really sweet books that we have in our house. They're fun, relatable kids stories, beautiful illustrations. The narration is by David McCormick and he is the guy who plays Bandit on Bluey, Bluey's dad. The themes for the themes in the books are things like forgiveness, responsibility, even food sensitivity, picky eating, sportsmanship, bullying, healthy screen time habits. They're really fun. They're really wholesome. The books can be read in any order. There's a lesson for whatever your child is working through right now. And if you want the best value, the complete hardcover collection includes all six books, a coloring book and free companion audiobooks. So perfect. Narrated by David McCormick, the voice of Bandit from Bluey. If you've got older kids such as 12 and up, there's an award winning series called Heroes of Time. Their fantasy novels. I haven't read those, so you might want to check them out before your kid reads them. I'm sure they're awesome. Good clean fun for the entire family. Go to pennypangolin.com ally pennypanglin.com ally. I saw this poll that said that Among Gen Z, 75% consider themselves pro Palestine and then the 25% consider themselves anti Israel. Obviously, as you were saying earlier, all of us want to multiply conservative ideas and we want more people to vote for the policies that we support. How do we go about on what seems like such a polarizing issue? It does almost seem like the polarizing issue right now. How do we go about bringing people in when the Republican Party is largely pro Israel and the younger voters seem to be completely opposed?
- [10:09]
B
It is very difficult. I want to acknowledge that up front. But we at Heritage think we have at least one part of the solution and that is to continue to advocate for and implement what is commonly now referred to as a realist foreign policy, which is to say, as Donald Trump more than anyone else taught us, especially in his first term, that the United States will always have the most lethal, efficient military, hopefully used more sparingly. When it is used, it needs to be proper, it needs to be time limited when we can avoid ground troops, in particular, because of the greater likelihood of loss of life for our servicemen and women, we do. So I think that as we sit here, Ali Beth, if the Iran conflict comes to a close pretty soon, and I think that it will, and friends of the president on the right are reassured that we're continuing on this trajectory of a more realist foreign policy, frankly, more restrained, that that is going to give us a touchstone to bring some people back on the right into the fold and to appeal, perhaps not to the far left, but to the center left of people who understand that this is a proper, constitutional, restrained use of American power. That might be a sales pitch to them that we can deliver. But it starts once again with implementing good policy. And I think that's what we have to do. Conversely, if I may, if God forbid, for a lot of reasons, it's November and we're still active in Iran. That's going to be a very difficult thing to do because we will have lost on the political right. One of the most popular, newer ideas that I have seen in my half decade now here in Washington, D.C. leading Heritage, which is that America will remain strong, but it's going to be a lot more restrained in the use of that military power. That's a popular idea, period. It's particularly popular, as you know, with younger men and women.
- [12:00]
A
Right. And that is another divide that I see, that a lot of the older Republicans, a lot of the baby boomers, obviously President Trump himself and people around him are like, yes, peace through strength. This is something that we have to do. They've talked about the timeline, why it had to be right now. But then, of course, you have another side who says this is completely unnecessary. It's going to start World War three. We are threatening the lives of our own kids and grandkids. And I think it can be really hard for the average conservative. You've got two sides with people that you trust, both saying what kind of sound like reasonable, smart things, and you just don't know what to think. And so how should we navigate that? How do we know who to listen to?
- [12:41]
B
Well, for the thoughtful voices who have been voices of constructive critique of the president's involvement in Iran. And I say they're thoughtful because they're not engaged in conspiracy theory. They're just saying they're offering a rational hypothesis, which is that if we're there too long, this series of events could happen. I happen to think that's a correct diagnosis, which is why at Heritage, we have done two things. First of all, tell the president and his administration they have done, I think, a flawless job in executing this campaign. Flawless. It's been a perfect military campaign. Having said that, they will continue to see diminished popular support for this the longer the war goes. Because while, of course, I think the President is correct about a clear and present danger to the United states for only 47 years, you know, by this former regime, we also understand in the United States we have some other problems we have to fix. The country generally trusts President Trump on the economy. We have the midterms coming up. There's a reality that has to be confronted there. And so I think, to sum up here, as long as this war is a war of weeks rather than a war of months or, God forbid, years, that those people who've offered the constructive critiques of no more forever wars, and they're right about that, are people who are going to be back in the fold, at least politically, with the president's coalition. And it gives us the opportunity, when we get to 2027 and beyond, to continue to build what I think is a very durable, long lasting majority political coalition around the mindset that when the United States must be involved internationally militarily on behalf of its people, it'll be quick, it'll be lethal, it'll be total, but it will be just a period of weeks. Our technology will allow us to do that. The postscript that I have to observe, I would be remiss if I didn't, is that if you don't do this, the Chinese take a lesson from it, which is that the United States is incapable of having a quick military conflict that the Iranians will have succeeded in drawing down to the point of real concern America's munitions. Our index of military strength at Heritage, for example, shows that we are incapable, unfortunately, tragically, of fighting two full scale wars at the same time. Always difficult, but we've done that a couple of times. We can't do that right now. If China decides to act up towards Taiwan, that's yet another reason that some of the thoughtful voices, not the conspiracy voices, the thoughtful voices on the right, are encouraging the President to wind this down.
- [15:17]
A
And what makes you feel optimistic that it will end in a Matter of weeks or months and not years.
- [15:24]
B
Well, two things. Number one, I believe it when I mean it, when I say it. I think the president's earned that trust. He has been exceptional across the board, especially regarding national security and foreign policy. But the second is maybe for someone who doesn't believe that as fervently as I do, the president's a pragmatist, and he understands competing goods. He understands that it is a good to denude the evil regime of Iran of its military power. It is a good to eliminate from the chessboard in the Middle East Iran's military nuclear program. It's also a good to pay attention to the American economy, which has. I think it's ready to just take off and have a Trump boom. But it's being held back by the oil prices that are generated, of course, from Iran. And it's also really important for Americans to see this president, who was elected in large part because of his focus on a domestic agenda, to be back focused on the domestic agenda. I know that my friend President Trump doesn't like to hear that observation right now because he rightly wants to see this war to a conclusion, and I applaud him for that. But over the next weeks, it's going to be really important that he does so.
- [16:34]
A
Right. Do you think concern over the war is something that is largely felt by independents and conservatives, or do I just feel like that? Because I'm seeing commentators, fellow podcasters, really, really press Trump on this. And I think it has to do with Israel. It has to do, I think, with Charlie being gone, somewhat, because Charlie was always the one to kind of help us understand what Trump is thinking and why. But then also, I think it has to do with this war, and some people feel betrayed. I mean, how representative do you think that is of the voters?
- [17:12]
B
I think it's very representative. I mean, it may be a touch more vocal because of the nature of podcasting. Right. But I think one of the geniuses of how Heritage was founded is that while we're headquartered in Washington, D.C. we're supported by normies, by everyday Americans. And I'm often asked the question, how can you, Kevin, or your colleagues stay normal and not be out of touch like everyone else in Washington? Well, because of the people we hang out with. Right. And so I know what I hear from you and other very thoughtful podcasters who are certainly supportive of the president, but offering some constructive critiques about the Iran conflict is representative of what people are saying. In fact, I'm just going to drill down a Little bit more, if I may. The most common thing that I hear, if I'm out in the Shenandoah on the weekend or I'm on heritage business visiting with everyday Americans is, and these are from dyed in the wool MAGA supporters. Trump is the end all, be all. They support the president. They certainly support our servicemen and service women. They are willing to support the Iran conflict, provided it's time limited. But they say in the very next breath. What about grocery prices?
- [18:22]
A
Yeah.
- [18:22]
B
What about gas prices? And what I would want the president to understand is when they're airing those questions, they're not airing questions questioning his leadership or his authority. They're wondering when he's going to be able to get back to turning his attention to that, because they trust him on it. And I think that's really. What if it's the end of the summer and we're still in Iran? That's going to be a real problem, not just for the president, but for conservative policymakers in Washington, is trust by the base on focusing on what they were elected to do, which is to be focused on the domestic agenda. Right now, the president can do both, but I think the clock is ticking.
- [19:01]
A
Yeah. And it can be hard, especially when an American is struggling to see the importance of engaging in a foreign conflict. It's not that there's not the capacity to understand, but all of us are like this. When there's a pressing issue right in front of us, we can't think about the thing that is far away or in the future or something. And so I think people want to feel the relief. They hear the news that good things are happening economically, that good things are happening in the Justice Department or good things are happening at the border. But they want to be able to see it and feel it in their own communities. And I think some do, but they really want to feel it. You know, they want to feel that relief.
- [19:37]
B
I did. I'm glad you put it that way. Because what I hear from a lot of Trump supporters is they want to see the grocery and gas prices come down to the level the president says they're going to. Right. And it isn't just for their own benefit. We all want that. Right. It's that they want this president to succeed. And so the reason I can sit here as a not just professional, but also personal supporter of the president is because I believe so much in his agenda. He's succeeded in closing the border. Zero border crossings. Zero border crossings of the southern border.
- [20:10]
A
I think most people don't realize in
- [20:10]
B
the last Few months. I know. And I just got back from a preliminary briefing from some senior economic advisers in Congress. I think the second quarter economic data is going to be very good, especially if the Iran conflict comes to a conclusion this April, which means the third will be great. I want that for Americans left to right. But it also will have the political benefit of the midterms. And the reason I say that, even though I'm more interested in ideas and policy, is because if we want good policies to be implemented, the elections have to go well. There is no doubt in my mind that the President is considering all of this. He's got not just a CEO profile, which means that he can handle a lot of information at once. He's a brilliant guy and I think he's going to get this one right. I just think he's probably now down to a couple of weeks to do so.
- [21:03]
A
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- [22:20]
B
He has and in terms of specific policy and then I'll talk about attitude for the country. He has gotten an A plus on border enforcement and you know, you would like to think every president would do that. But we now live in an era where there's this seesaw effect between the left and the right on that A plus on that.
- [22:39]
A
And Mass deportation. So zero crossings, but mass deportations, I think some people are like, when are we going to see that? Is that still happening after the huge kerfuffle in Minneapolis?
- [22:48]
B
I think that it will. That was certainly a PR problem. The administration let the left take advantage of them, and that administration, of all administrations, should know better. But it happened. Having said that, there is a lot of political support, including Heritages, behind revitalizing the mass remigration, the mass deportations. I think that has to happen not just as a matter of justice, but also as a matter of fact, of political trust to make sure that this movement includes that. So a plus on Southern border enforcement. Interior enforcement has been choppier, but in fairness to the administration, that's because of the plethora of sanctuary cities, counties, and states. So what we're trying to do at Heritage in this coalition on deportations, is to provide the political air cover for the administration to ramp back up on that. The administration has also done a good job on fiscal policy. This is something that is not President Trump's passion. He's someone who is more willing, I think, as a pragmatist, to spend money than to cut. He's not a fiscal hawk. The one big, beautiful bill, imperfect. It's a reconciliation bill by definition. It is actually is, I think, by the end of the second quarter, as I mentioned, going to directly result in what we will probably come to know as a Trump boom. So it's a little bit of a preliminary grade on the economy, but I think he's done well there. What could be better? I'll be honest with you. I think that while the president convinced me and us at Heritage over the last several years that we were mistaken about being too soft on China, we thought that, like I think most Americans, we were going to succeed in turning China into America, that we had to be much more hawkish. The administration's been a little uneven in its implementation of that hawkish China stance on the tariffs, for example. China, even though it should be target number one, gets some preferential treatment, which my colleagues and I believe should come to an end. We believe that China continues to get the better of the United States when it comes to some intellectual property, especially chips. The administration's trying, and we applaud them for that. We just think that they ought to exert even more political capital on that, not just because it's right, not just because it's good and just, but because it's also politically popular. This is something that's a bipartisan issue in terms of support. And then I would also encourage the president, when it comes to immigration, to come back to that, to really double down on the importance of assimilation, the importance of wanting to be an American beyond getting the certificate that you're an American citizen, and to embrace what many of us have argued for decades, which is that the best way to be a pro immigration country is to have laws that require immigrants to assimilate. English should be the official language. We should have these mass deportations. You should break the back of these sanctuary cities, counties, and states. If that's something that needs to wait until January because of midterm considerations, that's fine. It just needs to happen. Not just because it's good, but also because we will, in this movement, strain credulity with our base if we don't deliver on that. Americans want their country back. And I can think of no president, certainly in modern history, who better embodies the desire to do that than Donald Trump.
- [26:12]
A
Yeah, and that's a top issue for me. Of course. I'm a big culture war girl. The things that I see as creation, order issues, abortion, gender, marriage, those are gonna be top. But other than that, crime, immigration, and, like, I'm just the suburban mom, but those are the things I really see affecting my community. And it's not just. It's not only illegal immigration. And this is where I think the conversation has shifted on the right in a good way. I just don't know. The solution for it is that people are saying, yes, illegal immigration, number one. But also, it doesn't seem like our legal immigration is really prioritizing American interests. And when people see their communities, the neighborhoods that they grew up in, completely shift. And when people see churches turning into mosques, I think most Americans are uncomfortable saying it, but there's something unsettling about it. And I don't know that many voters know how to articulate what our goal is or what we want. But something just doesn't seem just. And I haven't heard a whole lot of politicians be able to say there's a solution for that. So what do you think about it?
- [27:18]
B
Well, I will say, and not just for me, but from all of us at Heritage. I'm not uncomfortable saying it. It's a travesty. We ought not have this plethora of mosques being built anywhere. We ought not tolerate at any level of government what is at least the partial implementation of Sharia law. And I'm not holding President Trump responsible for that. I actually think he's going to get onto that issue. But I want to encourage him there. I think that what we've learned now that we have closed the southern border, you know, almost a small political miracle, if you will, is that we can move on to the next order of questions. And that is, what does it mean to be an American? What does it mean to be a citizen? And not just in a legal sense, but. But in a social and cultural sense, to be part of your neighborhood, your community. Right. Well, at the very least, it means you ought to speak English, and English ought to be our official language. It also means that while, of course, we will honor religious liberty, that there ought to be certain restrictions against not just religions, but particular political implementations of religions. I'm talking about Islamism and some of the head coverings that are political statements more than they are honoring religious traditions. We have to understand that this country was based on principles that came from Jerusalem, Athens, Rome, London, and Philadelphia. We are both Judeo and Christian in our founding. That doesn't mean that there isn't room for other people, but it does mean that it's possible in a country that is so generous toward immigrants that we might have too many people from the wrong places. You know, my Christian faith, I believe, as it is demanded of me, because of my faith, that every human person is equal in the eyes of God. A nation state can believe that. And also because it believes it, say that legal immigration should be so restricted as to be able to perpetuate the best parts of that society. Right. We at Heritage look forward to having that conversation. And what I would say to especially friends on the right who just deny that this is a thing, that that train has left the station. And the future of this movement, if it's going to be successful, we'll be engaging these questions and offering thoughtful policy solutions about them. It really does start right now in this administration.
- [29:36]
A
Yeah. You can't really any longer tell people, oh, no, it's no different. This is still the country that you grew up in the 90s and the early 2000s. Look, I have eyes. And the suburb, the neighborhood that I grew up in, it's not the same. And I'm not saying all the people are bad. I'm just saying, do I have a right as an American to say this is actually not my culture, and if I wanted to live there, I would move there. If I wanted to live in the Middle East, I would move in the Middle East. But I want to live in America, and I want these people to share my values. And I am so glad you're not uncomfortable Saying that too many politicians are and too many people are. But it's true. And we would never fault someone from Zimbabwe or from China to say, I love Chinese culture, I love Zimbabwean culture, I want to maintain that, I want to push that forward. I love our values. And yet when it comes to America and Americans saying that, it's immediately castigated, it's immediately condemned as bigotry. So I'm glad that you see a taste for that in Washington, hopefully. I certainly see a taste for it among, as you said, the normie Americans. They don't know how to put words to it. But they look around and they're like, this is not right.
- [30:43]
B
That's right. Not because they're dumb, obviously, and that's obviously not what you're suggesting. It's that they're looking to leaders, policy leaders, to help them put words to it because they're looking for solutions. It would be like me as a Roman Catholic showing up in Saudi Arabia or some other Islamic country and walking around with my rosary and my wife deciding she's going to walk around as an American. We would never do that. Right. Because we respect the traditions of the country that we have decided to visit. We have tens of millions of Americans, however, who've decided to do that. As if this country did not have a very specific founding by a very specific people in a very specific place. This is a country not just based on ideas or a creed, but it's based on a culture. A culture, not just admittedly, but to celebrate, made up of many different cultures, people of different backgrounds, the most diverse civil society in history. But we're so audacious in the United States that for 250 years we've said we're still going to be one. Anything that violates that ethos is unacceptable and we have to become more comfortable to say it.
- [31:45]
A
And there's got to be a buy in. There's just got to be a buy in for that. Yes. Religious liberty. Yes, all of that. But the people coming here, the people who live here, you got to buy into that or else none of this works. It's not cohesive.
- [31:57]
B
It's that simple.
- [32:03]
A
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- [33:21]
B
Again, marriage is the most important because it is the farthest upstream factor from all of the things we've just been discussing. I won't bore you and your audience with the hundred steps of the connection between the decline of marriage and what we were just talking about that you
- [33:36]
A
managed to realize all of the steps. It's fascinating.
- [33:39]
B
We'll stick to the main focus, which is to tell you something. You know, marriage rates have declined and that has been a problem for 50 years in the United States. But what has aggravated that is a very serious and steady decline in birth rates. And so the reason that this is important, which is not to be pedantic, is that without marriage and births of native born Americans, regardless of their ethnic background, you're simply not going to perpetuate the society. You're going to have to rely on immigration. So actually, it's just two steps. But the second thing is even more important. Where do we get our sense of values? Where do we get our sense of gratitude for our faith, for our country, for our neighbors, even if we disagree with them politically from the family that we grow up in? What we're saying, not saying at Heritage, is that everyone needs to have the perfect family. We're saying that for too long, policymakers, especially in Washington, have not only ignored this, they've actually contributed to the problem. There are scores of disincentives in federal safety net programs Federal welfare programs toward marriage. At the very least, we need to reverse those. But what we're positing at Heritage is that the time has come because the birth rate has gotten so low, so far below replacement, that we might need to incentivize marriage in the way other countries have done. Hungary has had mixed results. Israel actually has had the best results. And seeing in that investment of the public's money in incentivizing marriage and births, at least a slight increase in the rates of both, that's what we need to do in this country. I actually think if we can do that, although it will take a couple of generations to see the full benefit, that you're going to see some of these other problems dissipate, whether they be immigration or, for that matter, education.
- [35:24]
A
Can you give me an example of a policy that could incentivize marriage?
- [35:28]
B
Sure. We love the idea of the Trump accounts, and people with young children probably love them right now, too, because they're being implemented now. So our scholars took that idea of a Trump account, which puts $1,000 in the account of a young American under 18, and we said, let's plus that up to $2,500 for each of a married couple. So $5,000 by the end of their 20s if they're married and have children. There's that very modest. We understand, you know, this is not $500,000, but it's a start. The second thing that we advocate for in this paper is an expansion of the adoption tax credit, which is about $17,000, to help subsidize adoptions. Why do we as Americans subsidize adoptions? Because they're good. They're good for everyone involved. And so if that's the case for adoptions, then implicit in that law is that we honor births in this country. So we thought, well, if we're going to honor adoptions which are outstanding, how about we honor natural births, if they're possible for that married couple? And so each birth would have that tax credit with a 25% bonus for people who have three or more children. This is not just aggressive, it's audacious. We believe that these policies have to be audacious if you're going to have a chance at turning the corner and not becoming a nation, either of half the population by 2100 or a population of immigrants. Nothing against them as people, but you're going to lose this country as it has been if that's the path that we continue to be on.
- [37:00]
A
Yeah. Wow. I think that more people than I believe five or 10 years ago are talking not only about marriage and birth and having more children. This is certainly a change to me, even from, like, my parents generation, where it was just kind of. I don't know, it was just taken for granted that everyone would have one or two kids. But now, at least in my circles, we're talking about, okay, should we have one more? Like, let's add to the birth rate. Let's try to, yes, let us contribute to this. But also, people are talking about the definition of marriage more than they were. I think, five years ago. I felt like it was me and, like, three other people who were like, hey, this still matters and we should still be talking about Obergefell. But it kind of felt like Republicans just left us on the field when it came to the definition of marriage, which matters if you care about children's rights and all the things that we're talking about. And so what really, is the same state of that battle? Is that just something that we have to surrender forever?
- [37:56]
B
Oh, I don't think so. I mean, we have an inheritance. We acknowledge the legal reality. Right. Both as an employer and just an institution of civil society. But that doesn't require us to stop fighting for what's right. And what's right is that marriage, very simply, is between a man and a woman, period. And so we're going to always fight for that eternal truth. No man, no woman has the ability to change that definition in its reality. Obviously, our Supreme Court and some policymakers think otherwise. We're going to continue working on that. Does that mean that we're going to work on that instead of working on other issues? No. At Heritage, we work on every policy issue. So we're working on all of these channels. I will just make this observation that in 1973 and 74 and 1979, people had a similar conversation, which is, gosh, do we just have to accept Roe v. Wade? And the answer was no. It took 50 years. And even after it was overturned, we have more abortions annually than we've ever had because of the nature of the radical left. It's a great lesson, the question of Obergefell. It's a great lesson that if we ever have a chance of redefining marriage to its proper definition of being between a man and a woman, that's going to be a matter of hearts and minds. It's going to be so far upstream of politics and policymaking that policymakers in D.C. will see that to be an easy decision. That's where we need to be engaged in our work. And that's why it's so important for us in public policy to be talking about the most important institution in public policy in civil society, and that's the family.
- [39:37]
A
Yeah, there have been a lot of changes over the past several months at a lot of conservative institutions, but that includes Heritage. I think some of those changes have been.
- [39:46]
B
I've seen some of those.
- [39:46]
A
Yeah. I don't know if you've heard about this, but there were some resignations and some, you know, difficult conversations that were being had, it seems like, both privately and also publicly. So what is the state of Heritage right now? What are some challenges that y' all are facing, and how are y' all overcoming those?
- [40:01]
B
Sure, we are 100% aligned. So we're a staff of 300 some people, and we love everyone who's ever worked at Heritage a long time ago or recently, and they know that that's true. We respect them as persons. And yet, because at Heritage, we have this famous policy called the one voice policy, which means we speak with one voice, that we're not going to go ask donors for money to advocate for one piece of legislation that contradicts another. We obviously, because we want to see our policies come to life, have to have one voice. Not everyone likes that. And you know what? That's okay. But that means you shouldn't be at Heritage, because at Heritage, we operate with one voice, and that one voice happens to be very representative of normal Americans, because we're not funded by anyone on K Street, Less than one and a half percent of our donations annually come from corporations. Nothing against corporations, but some of the big ones, especially in this town, like to have you as a puppeteer. That's not our game at Heritage. I can tell you after being in the news for the last six months, I can report to you, not only honestly, but exuberantly, that we're all very aligned. We have tremendous momentum. We understand the challenges in the movement right in front of us because we being representative of the people, we feel them, but we see great opportunities ahead. We think that if we're focused on we, not just at Heritage, but the movement on the future of the family, on the future of the dignity of work and free enterprise, on national security, on American heritage and citizenship. And we just talk about those four things, research those four things incessantly, that that is going to be the framework, not just for our own work, not just for the conservative movement, but maybe for the next three or four presidents, because those are common sense ideas. Those are the words that normal Americans are looking for. And so it's our job at Heritage, more than anyone else's, to bring that to life. You can probably tell I'm very excited about this. The future is very bright, even with the challenges that we've talked about.
- [42:08]
A
Next sponsor is Shopify. So if you've got something to sell but you're afraid to do it because you're just lost, how are you going to handle shipping? How are you going to build a store? How do you find customers? How do you take payments? All of that stuff that comes along with e commerce that can be totally overwhelming. It could be paralyzing. Don't allow those things to paralyze you. You need to use Shopify. That's why millions of people use Shopify. It is the e commerce ecommerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world. Shopify gives you hundreds of ready to use templates so you can build a beautiful online store that fits your brand. They've got AI powered tools that help you write product descriptions, create page headlines, even improve product photos. Plus you can run email and social campaigns to reach customers whenever they're scrolling. Business moves really fast. You don't want to have to slow down and build all of this yourself. Just allow Shopify to do it for you. Then you can go back to doing what you love. It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com alli that's shopify.com alli. This is just out of my personal curiosity because I love to learn from leaders. There's a pastor who says that leadership is a commitment to being misunderstood. When you are a leader, there's going to be people that misrepresent and misunderstand you. Is there one thing in some of the hardship and the difficulty over the past six months that you learned as a leader?
- [43:43]
B
I learned a lot of things. I happen to agree with that Pastor. I think that that's true. And I learned early on in a previous leadership stop at a small Catholic college that you just, you can't repeat things enough for people to understand. And that's on you. Right. I'm not blaming colleagues or anything.
- [44:00]
A
Podcasters too. We also have that problem.
- [44:02]
B
I noticed that too. I learned that in Washington, D.C. tenacity prevails over nonsense as long as you're willing to have it and as long as it's rooted in what's right. And I can speak on behalf of all of my colleagues. I think in particular Our executive team, our senior management, we knew, in spite of all of the press coverage, most of which was nonsense, some of it self inflicted. I've spoken about that, that we were going to see it through. Not because we were Heritage. Pat ourselves on the back, but because everyone who walks into that building is virtuous. Everyone who walks into that building is committed to what we're doing. And we were just going to be so zealously focused on the work ahead that we would render nonsense, absurd, well paid distraction by people in the city, everything that was being said. And so the greatest compliment that Heritage got over the last six months came from a friend of ours. And he mentioned this to me Friday night. We were just explaining to him and a few hundred donors all of these plans. And he said, you know, Kevin, this is a guy who was a CEO of a major company. He had been through a lot of battles and he was looking for leadership lessons. He said, the most impressive thing about Heritage is that during all of that, every rank and file employee must have been busting his or her tail because for y' all to be talking about all of these plans shows that you weren't distracted. And so for the people who didn't understand because I didn't speak clearly enough, you know, that's. That's on me. But for the handful of people who have perpetuated the nonsense, that's on them because they're not only wasting their and their donors money, they're standing in the way of doing the everyday Americans work. And Heritage has proven itself not only to be durable, but to be tenacious. And I guarantee you we're going to win.
- [46:11]
A
Okay, can you tell me about the American Opportunity Agenda that Heritage is working on? This is one of those exciting plans, right?
- [46:19]
B
It is. It's one of the things that excites me as I sit here. One of the things. Another leadership lesson that I learned along the way is to package things. What I mean by that is, as an academic, maybe evidenced by this very conversation, I like to get into detailed explanations. But in this town, for political consumption, we on the right have to do a better job of messaging. We need to tell better stories. You're excellent at putting a human face on things at Heritage. What we've decided to do with the American Opportunity Agenda is package all of the ideas we have for policymakers in D.C. and at the state level to go sell to the American people. If I had a magic wand as we sat here, I think I would use it this way. I would say every conservative running for Office in the midterms would endorse the American Opportunity agenda. It's sort of like 94's Contract with America, but even more substantive in policy. And the reason I can say that is this isn't purely Heritage idea. This comes from other conservative groups all across this town because Heritage loves to work in coalitions. It's economic freedom and prosperity. The four cornerstones that I mentioned. Family, national security work, free enterprise. Also, what it means to be an American, American heritage. We happen to know that this is a popular agenda because we focus group and pull these things all the time. But the political consultant class in D.C. hates this idea because it's simpler, it's less expensive, and they don't want their client to be beholden to a conservative agenda. So part of our challenge is to be able to sell it to members of Congress and to the consultant class. But ultimately it's going to be the agenda because the conservative movement writ large has not just Heritage, but many groups has succeeded in getting upstream of members of Congress. And I say that very respectfully, that whenever we have another conservative Congress, I happen to think that will still be next year. But let's say it's 29 or 31 or 33. This is going to be the agenda. We have to be talking about the things that everyday Americans care about, but to do so in a way that generates a political majority.
- [48:27]
A
You know, there's a sentiment out there right now that it's like the midterms don't really matter. Who cares about the midterms? We don't like President Trump anymore. There's like, you know, you call it like a black pill. There's a lot of people who are just super pessimistic. They think basically the right and the left, Republicans and Democrats, are the same. Is that true that the midterms really are inconsequential?
- [48:48]
B
Oh, gosh, absolutely not. I know why people are saying that, but you probably know I'm the least likely person to be black pilled. I'm with the Vice President. Let's not go down that road. I acknowledge why people say that. But let me paint a picture of what happens if, if good people stay home and don't vote and don't encourage their friends to vote. The left comes into power, they run the House, and within a month. So By February of 2027, the president's impeached. And let's just say you're a conservative, you voted for Trump three times and you're disappointed because of Iran. I disagree with that. But let's just say that you are, you don't want him impeached because then that goes to the Senate, probably still Republican. And we've wasted a year. And we've wasted a year when we need to be implementing the American opportunity agenda or whatever policy issue you're disappointed hasn't happened. Now, am I going to sit here with a straight face and defend the status quo of Washington D.C. no. But what I can say to maybe white pill this conversation a little bit is that just in the short time that I've been working in D.C. i have seen the percentage of conservatives in the Republican conference in the House and the Senate dramatically increase. That's a way of saying that we need the midterms desperately so that we can continue this trajectory. And I think that if that happens, if the trajectory continues to be good, we have a couple of big opportunities to implement good policy. And what we're trying to do at Heritage for people who are feeling black pilled is to say there's a plan. Not everyone has signed on to the plan, but if the midterms go well, they will almost have to accept the plan.
- [50:27]
A
I saw that James Carville, if people don't know he's a Democratic strategist and he spoke at Politikon and he gave some of his own recommendations to the left. If they take the back in November, he said this is what they should do and they shouldn't talk about it, they should just do it. Because the left actually is kind of good at messaging strategy. He said grant statehood to Washington D.C. and Puerto Rico so that the left can unlock four extra seats in the Senate, pack the U.S. supreme Court from nine justices to 13, reopen the U.S. mexico border and grant mass amnesty to every single alien currently inside of the United States. His advice, don't run on it, don't talk about it, just do it.
- [51:07]
B
And they will. I mean we, we, we were just one Joe Manchin vote away, maybe a Senator Sinema vote away from a couple of those things happening. So that that's not a crazy man's theory, although he is a crazy man. The second thing is look at what Governor Spanberger's done in Virginia. Yeah, she ran as a moderate. She did exactly what Carville suggested. She ran as a moderate. Now many of us knew better. And she's governed not just on the left, but on the far, far left in a state that's truly a purple state. And what's going to happen is that actually I think people on the right will overcome being black pilled because of what Carville said because of the reality in Virginia, because I think Trump, once he brings Iran to a conclusion, will remind people, even if they're a little disappointed in him, of why staying on this policy trajectory is the most important. But it's already the spring, and people start forming these opinions in fairly permanent ways by the summer. So this crowd has a lot of work to do, which is why Heritage is being very aggressive about it.
- [52:13]
A
Last sponsor for the day is Alliance Defending Freedom. America is celebrating 250 years of freedom this year, and alliance, if any freedom, is asking you to join them in prayer just for five days this year. If you go to joinadf.com ally, sign the commitment to sign up to pray, I'm going to be praying along with them, praying that God would bring our nation to repentance, that we would humble ourselves, that we would pray to him, that we would seek wisdom, that Christians would be bold, courageous, and clear, and that the Lord would just give us the mercy and the guidance that we desperately need, especially our nation's leaders, no matter what side of the aisle they're on. ADF works not only in America, but all around the world to protect religious liberty, free speech rights, to protect the sanctity of life, and to protect the rights of women and girls. And so just join them in prayer. Go to joinadf.com ally or text ALLY to 838-4848. That's joinadf.com ally, or text ALLY to 838. Messaging is so important. If I could wave my magic wand, there's a lot of things that I would change, but one of them would certainly be to, like, get a good publicist for Republicans and just, yeah, we have a, we have a little bit of a hard time telling our own stories and representing in a human way why conservative policy is actually better for your kids and your grandkids and your neighbors and the poor and all of these people that you really care about. The progressive policies aren't actually the ones that are helping. They're hurting those groups. And yeah, Heritage is doing a lot to change that messaging. And that really makes me happy. That's one of my biggest peeves with politics, is that some of the best people have the worst messaging and we need help with it.
- [54:01]
B
No, it's so true. I was just doing a guest lecture for some students in the Northeast, and they said, Dr. Roberts, why don't you like the term think tank? It's what you run. I said, the we are that, but we don't like that. Phrase at Heritage because it's so passive and it denies all of these things we're doing upstream. Right. Which is to help form public opinion.
- [54:20]
A
Yeah, that is so true. Okay, give us one last call. The normal American mom is listening. She's like, okay, I can't vote until November. What do I do right now to help make my community better and help push some of these values that we're talking about?
- [54:35]
B
Well, I'll be abusive and say two things, because it's the spring. Depending on the state where that mom is, the state legislature might still be in session, and no doubt there could be some good work there. If you need some help there, check us out@HeritageAction.com but the second thing is start as local as you can. For my wife, it was a homeowners association. I mean, we're talking the local of locals. Why? Because it prevented them assessing ridiculous amounts of money and probably going woke. It sounds silly to say unless you've existed in an hoa, but for a lot of suburban moms, think about just attending a school board meeting or a city council meeting or a county commission meeting.
- [55:13]
A
Even if your kids don't go to public school.
- [55:15]
B
Oh, absolutely. It's even more powerful if they don't. Because you're saying, I care so deeply, not just as a taxpayer, but as a fellow American for other people's kids. This ought to be the affection we have for one another. But I will often hear, well, I'm too busy. Oh, I'll never understand what they're saying. Hogwash. You're an American mom living in the suburbs. You can do this. If you need some guidance on how to do that, we're happy to help. There are plenty of groups that are. This is the point. Just show up somewhere where elected officials are meeting, and your mere presence, your mere presence, especially if it's sustained and you have a few friends who go with you, will change their behavior. This is still America.
- [55:54]
A
Mm. Black pilling is a sin. That's my message. Despair is a sin. And we are called in Jeremiah 29:11 to seek the welfare of the city in which we've been placed. The Jewish exiles were called to that. Christians are exiles in this world. And that doesn't always look how it looks in America. If you are a Christian in China, if you're a Christian in Lebanon, that looks different. But we have the privilege of living here, where we do have the freedom to exercise our voice and to exercise our vote and to make better the community in which God has providentially placed us. HeritageAction.com right. Can give some action steps, help you connect to your local legislator. My dad is always talking about get involved locally. It's not just D.C. that matters. And y' all are so good at helping us do that. So thank you so much.
- [56:36]
B
My pleasure. Thank you.