Ep 1375 | Cliffe Knechtle’s Most Controversial Take—And Why He’s Doubling Down

Summary

Podcast Summary: Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey
Episode 1375 | "Christians Must Avoid This Big Mistake That Muslims Make"
Guests: Cliffe & Stuart Knechtle
Date: July 24, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, Allie Beth Stuckey welcomes veteran apologists Cliffe and Stuart Knechtle to discuss the spiritual landscape of Gen Z, the role of doubt in Christian faith, the challenges of campus and public evangelism, and the necessity of engaging both skeptics and cultural trends with nuanced, honest faith. They explore generational shifts in attitudes toward truth, authority, and empathy, as well as address why Christians must be careful not to adopt a simplistic or absolute stance that can backfire—drawing a critical distinction between intellectually honest doubt and the error of “infallibility” sometimes seen in other faiths.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Background and Ministry Approach

(00:00-09:49)

• Cliffe Knechtle shares how he came to faith and began evangelizing in unconventional places such as bars in Boston before transitioning to preaching and public Q&A forums on college campuses across the U.S.
• He highlights the "link in a chain" approach: “Often I’m the first link or a middle link. Occasionally I have the privilege of being the last link. But I’m called to be faithful.” (03:27)
• Stuart describes his childhood attending often-hostile campus events, including traumatic but formative moments at UC Berkeley.
• Both emphasize the value of dialogue, respectful disagreement, and long-term faithfulness in evangelism.

2. The Emotional Climate on Campuses & Cultural Shifts

(14:40-21:55)

• Cliffe and Stuart discuss the radical changes in American campus culture: heightened emotional fragility, widespread moral and sexual relativism, and the dominance of scientific materialism.
• Cliffe: “People are more emotionally fragile today...What emotional fragility, what incredible emotional weakness today compared to the young 18-year-olds who fought against Adolf Hitler.” (17:11)
• Moral relativism and personal autonomy are now championed above classic virtues like empathy, compassion, and forgiveness, but often “untethered to objective truth” (Allie, 22:11).

3. Empathy, Autonomy, and Value of Life

(21:55-27:36)

• Stuart observes a growing callousness toward human life and deeper disregard for the sanctity of life, notably on issues like suicide and euthanasia: “Autonomy and freedom considered the top idea even more so than the value of life...they demanded I support the right of a 16-year-old to end her life.” (19:56)
• Allie and Stuart critically examine the cultural elevation of traits like empathy and authenticity as highest goods, noting their dangers when detached from an objective, biblical standard.

4. Callousness and the Disappearance of Forgiveness

(25:36-27:36)

• The trio remarks on how terms like “empathy” and “altruism” have been redefined; sacrificial love for “enemies” and forgiveness are disappearing from the secular lexicon.

5. Violence and Martyrdom in Modern Evangelism

(27:36-33:41)

• Allie and the Knechtles reflect on the risks of public faith after the real-life killing of a fellow campus evangelist, Charlie.
• Cliffe: “I respected [Charlie] highly because I did not want to be involved with Christian nationalism... America is a great country when America follows Jesus Christ.” (28:15)
• Stuart: “For the first time we’ve had to certainly have security... Martyrdom is a fantastic thing according to our faith and the history of our faith. And yet at the same time, yeah, we don't want to be cavalier about it.” (31:29)

6. Gen Z and Church Attendance: Is Trump the Issue?

(35:38-38:17)

• The episode centers on a recent survey: “Christians’ support of Trump has made me less likely to go to church.” Nearly half of Gen Z agreed; Allie and guests are skeptical this is the root cause.
• Cliffe relates the challenge of “political stereotyping” and strives to focus on moral, not partisan, issues:
  • “We’ve got to be very careful how closely wedded to a politician we get… The solution to America’s problems is not a political solution. Instead, it’s Jesus Christ who comes to change the human heart.” (35:38)
• Stuart adds: Most Gen Zers cite hypocrisy, judgmentalism, and lack of answers from the church — not primarily politics — as reasons for declining church attendance. (37:43)

7. On Doubt and Certainty in Faith (Demolishing Doubt)

(43:44-64:43)

• Cliffe’s new book, Demolishing Doubt, affirms the value of questioning and critical investigation in faith:
  • “Jesus taught us to be skeptics, but not cynics… A follower of Christ is not someone who blindly believes. A follower of Christ is someone who wants to struggle through the issues.” (43:44)
  • “If I'm going to learn about Islam, I'm not going to look at the terrorists... I'm going to study the Quran and find out what Muhammad said.” (44:17)
• Healthy doubt versus atheistic or cynically closed-minded skepticism:
  • Stuart: “If Jesus Christ called out on the cross, ‘My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?’ then surely we are allowed to doubt. But to choose doubt as a philosophy for life is akin to choosing immobility as a means for transportation.” (51:01)
  • Both stress the importance of approaching doubt with honesty and following evidence, rather than absolutism.

8. Apologetics for the Average Christian

(46:45-48:21)

• Advice for non-experts: listen well, learn from real conversations, and it's okay to admit “I don’t know” as long as one investigates and returns with honest engagement.
• “Pray as hard as you can, love people as well as you can and study.” (46:45)

9. The "Muslim Mistake" & Intellectual Honesty

(60:06-64:43)

• Cliffe argues Christians should avoid mimicking the Muslim position of claiming 100% certainty and textual inerrancy:
  • “If we're going to be honest, if we're going to look at the evidence, we have to acknowledge there are holes... I think that miscommunicates because if we act like we never struggle with uncertainty, that's just not true.” (60:06)
• He details the reality of manuscript variants and cautions against dishonest presentations of “perfect” religious texts.

10. Miraculous Assumptions in Atheism

(67:01-69:58)

• Cliffe provides a memorable reversal:
  • “Every atheist friend of mine has to believe non-existence produces existence. That’s a miracle. The only problem is, my atheist friend doesn't have a miracle worker.” (67:01)
• Stuart observes that many popular atheist arguments (e.g., Krauss’s “nothingness” as the ground of all) lack logical coherence and real evidence.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We’re all born broken. Life is about healing, and the grace of God is the glue... Find the crack, and that’s where you apply the gospel.”
  — Cliffe Knechtle (48:33)
• “Doubt is very good...but you have to get to the point after questioning, that’s healthy. If it turns to cynicism...you got to doubt those doubts.”
  — Stuart Knechtle (51:01, 54:23)
• “You grow in knowledge by looking for evidence, not demanding proof, then making a trust step... That’s a process, and that’s the way we develop relationships and friendships.”
  — Cliffe Knechtle (62:18)
• “Empathy, authenticity, they’re good when in submission to absolute truth; when they’re not, they’re actually very dangerous.”
  — Allie Beth Stuckey (22:11)
• “To reject Christ because of some hypocritical Christian, to reject Christ because some Christians are politically different from me, I think is a tragic, very prejudiced, very close minded approach to reality.”
  — Cliffe Knechtle (44:46)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:00–07:49 — Intro; Cliffe’s evangelistic background; bar and campus ministry stories
• 07:49–11:23 — Stuart’s childhood experiences at campus events & rise of social media in evangelism
• 14:40–16:39 — Facing hostility at UC Berkeley; most controversial campus topics
• 16:39–21:55 — Emotional fragility & cultural/moral shifts
• 21:55–27:36 — Personal autonomy vs sanctity of life; “cult of self” thinking
• 27:36–33:41 — Impact of campus violence; on martyrdom and boldness
• 35:38–38:17 — Gen Z’s stated reasons for leaving the church; politics as a smokescreen
• 43:44–46:45 — The value of doubt in faith; Demolishing Doubt
• 51:01–54:23 — Doubt vs unbelief: the example of Thomas
• 60:06–64:43 — Avoiding absolute certainty; honesty about biblical manuscripts
• 67:01–69:58 — Miraculous assumptions of atheism
• 70:19–70:42 — Where to find and follow Cliffe and Stuart

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Closing

Allie thanks Cliffe and Stuart for their thoughtful dialogue and faithfulness in a challenging cultural environment.
Connect with the Knechtles on Instagram (@stewart_connectley) and YouTube (Give Me an Answer).

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This summary captures the heart of the episode, including foundational apologetic insights, honest dialogue about faith and doubt, and practical guidance for Christians facing both skepticism and the pressing questions of our time.

Transcript

[A]

A new poll out shows that half of Gen Z says they won't go to church because of Christian support for Donald Trump. But is that really true? What holds young people back from attending church? What is the state of faith of Gen Z and college students in America today? We've got apologist Cliff Knuckley and his son Stuart Connectley. They have been on campuses for years sharing the gospel, having a dialogue about Christianity, about faith, and they are here today to answer this question as well as to talk about Cliff's new book, Demolishing Doubt. Why is doubt actually not as bad as some people think it is? We are talking about this and so much more on today's episode of Relatable. Cliff and Stewart, thanks so much for taking the time to join us. For maybe the five or so people on the Internet who don't know who you are and what you do, Cliff, who are you and what do you do?

[B]

Well, I was born at an early age and I came to Faith in Christ because of mom and dad's faithfulness in communicating the gospel to their six kids. And what I do is I have the privilege of being married to Sharon and to be the father of Robert, Stewart and Ian. And for years we traveled as a family from campus to campus around the United States. And I would stand up at a highly trafficked spot on campus and speak for four or five minutes and then say, that's all I had to say. I thought we'd open it up for question, answer, agreement, disagreement, wherever you all are coming from. And we'd hold a four to five hour dialogue. And now I have the privilege of having Stuart and his older brother Robert occasionally come with me. Stuart comes all the time and Robert comes occasionally. And we continue to do the same thing on university campuses around the United States.

[A]

Okay, before the campuses, you were preaching and sharing the gospel in bars, is that correct?

[B]

Well, while I was in seminary at Gordon Cornwall, yes, I would go down Friday night, Saturday night in inner city Boston and go into the combat zone, which is an area of the city that Boston tried to legalize prostitution in order to contain it. And I would speak to men on vacation in these bars, blue collar type bars, rough and tumble, television in the corner. Every time the Bruins or Celtics would lose a game, some half drunk guy would stand up and curse God at the top of his lungs. So I figured equal time, if you get to curse God at the top of your lungs, I get to say something positive about God at the top of my lungs. And so did a bit of bar preaching.

[A]

Down there in Boston, is there any story that sticks out from that particular era of the bar preaching in Boston? Of when you had a meaningful conversation with someone and it felt like, okay, they understood the gospel in that moment?

[B]

Well, the conversation that sticks out most for me is a reporter from the Boston Globe one night came with me. He was writing an article on born again Christians and their desire to share their faith. And he would follow me around from bar to bar, and at the end of the evening, he said, cliff, I gotta go, but I got one question for you. It seems to me that nobody has given you any type of positive response, so why on earth do you continue to do this? And I said, well, sir, let me tell you, a person coming to faith is like a chain with a lot of different links in it. Often I'm the first link or a middle link. Occasionally I have the privilege of being the last link. But I'm called to be faithful. And that means I'm going to be the first link or the middle link in a person coming to faith. Because a person doesn't come to faith, just boom, out of the dark. Instead, it's a process of learning about who God is, learning about who Christ is, learning about the cross of Christ and the need to put your faith in Christ. And he walked away with a thoughtful look on his face. And then there were other times when, yes, I had the privilege of seeing people come to faith, but that was pretty few and far between. I began to work in a mission there in inner city Boston and saw some homeless people. Now, of course, I never knew exactly what a homeless person meant when they said anything they said. I mean, they were slaves of alcohol and drug addiction. So I learned to take everything they said with a grain of salt.

[A]

And what gave you the gumption to try that kind of evangelism? I think a lot of people might be listening and they're like, gosh, I just couldn't overcome the awkwardness or the fear, not knowing what to say, not knowing how to deal with the negative response in the moment. But you decided to walk into a pretty hostile place and just say what's true.

[B]

Well, I really didn't have the courage to do it. In fact, the night that I spoke in my first bar, I parked my car and started walking towards the bar door. And when I got there, I walked right past it. And I walked around the block for an hour. And I eventually said to myself, well, forget this, you're so scared, get out of here. So I went back to my car and was opening My door to go back up to Gordon Conwell Seminary. And the Holy Spirit brought to my mind the words of the author of Hebrews in Hebrews 11:32, 38, where we read. And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and the prophets, who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice and gain what was promised, who shut the mouths of lions, quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword, whose women received back their dead, raised to life again, some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were stoned and put in prison, chained and put in prison. And all of a sudden, I began to ask myself, you know, Cliff, you claim to have faith in Christ, but you really are a wimp. You don't have the guts to go into that bar and tell those men on vacation about Jesus Christ. So, convicted of my lack of faith, I turned around and walked back into the bar, stood up and started speaking. And I started with First John 4:10, where we read, this is love. Not that we loved God, but that God loved us and sent his son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. And the bartender came running down the bar saying, you want to know what God is? God is the cash register. And all I care about these men is the money they got in their pockets. And I started dialoguing with him. Well, yeah, but then there's more to life than money. There isn't the opportunity to know a loving God. And he came around, grabbed my arm, and gently escorted me out. But that was the first time that I preached in a bar. And I'll never forget it because I was so petrified about going in there. I was so scared. And once again, God used his word, the scriptures, to really convict me about, come on, buddy, suck it up and trust God and go in and do it.

[A]

And then you graduated. For lack of a better term. I guess it wouldn't be graduated, but you decided to transition to college campus. That was your new ministry after you got married, after you had kids. And what gave you the inspiration to do that?

[B]

Well, it started in 1980. I was on staff with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, and there was the InterVarsity Beach Evangelism Project in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. And so I decided, man, I'd like to really try this. And so I went out on the beach and stood up and began to preach. And guys hopped off their towels and started telling me what a fool I was for believing in Christ. And so I scrapped my outline and started dialoguing with him. And after finishing that, some staff and students of intervarsity said, hey, would you try this on our campus? And so I said, sure. And I'll never forget. The first campus was SUNY Albany in upstate New York. Charlie Toblman was the intervarsity staff worker. He grew up on the mission field in Central America. His dad and mom were missionaries. And as we're driving to campus, he says, okay, now Cliff, how many campuses have you done this before on? And I said, none. This is my first one. Charlie. It got real quiet for the rest of the drive to campus.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But we started and the Holy Spirit drew a group of students who really wanted to fire questions and work through the issues. So haven't stopped since. Wow.

[A]

And Stuart, what was it like for you? You and your brothers actually went with your parents to these college campuses? Did you have a sense of, okay, this is really cool, this is neat, I want to do this? Or was it just the normal day to day part of your life?

[C]

I always say I still struggle with PTSD over when I was 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. Oh my gosh, UC Berkeley was probably the wildest one. I still have visions. I don't have many visions from when I was three years old, but the visions of especially this one guy. You probably remember his name. Mom probably remembers his name. I do not.

[B]

Chris.

[C]

Chris would come out, hair below his backside side, hadn't cut it probably in over a decade, and would just spit in his face. And he definitely wasn't the only one. Right. Berkeley was known for this. Exactly. Literally spitting right in his face. And I never saw him swing, but just screaming. And so I would run out and grab hold of my dad's leg, thinking I was gonna save him at the age of three.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And, and that was definitely not the only one. That would happen at numerous universities. That's kind of my go to thing to run. Grab your leg.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So no, I cannot say I wanted to do what my dad did when I was three or when I was a teenager and beyond that. But he was a very kind recruiter. When I got asked to be a pastor at a few different churches down south. No, he wasn't really a recruiter, but he, he definitely wanted to work together, but he always respected. Just like a lot of dads too, probably your daddy's dad. Where it's the, the balance of. Would love to work together, but I want you to do what you want to do and what God is calling you to. But I get to the point of Saying, hey, look, the culture that I'm familiar with is this one with my dad and my brothers were there as well and beyond. And so it started off pastoring, but then naturally this became a gigantic evangelistic program within our church. And so I got really excited about it. I like the majority of millennials and gen zers during COVID it was just anybody and everybody trying out social media and just messing around. And I never wanted a personal account because I knew that'd be a huge time suck.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But I had a few guys on our board and then at our church say, just start social media. We guarantee you it would fly. So I said no at first, but I did say it to him 10 years before, like, I cannot believe the ministry. You know, the board has tried it on black entertainment even, and it's never really taken off from a media perspective. It would grow, it would balloon on college campuses. But sure enough, these little clips from TikTok especially, I would just find ones on free speech. I didn't hit the gospel until like after two months because I want to do pre evangelism stuff predominantly on him. And sure enough, these things just popped off and then focused on the gospel interactions after about two months. And it just grew and grew and grew. And I think the Holy Spirit timing and Covid timing, then on top of social media acting like the Roman road. Like one pastor recently said to us, the combination of it all really provided the opportunity to reach a lot of non believers. And some of my friends who went to Christian college were reaching out to me, saying, Stuart, we know, you know, we've been atheists for years. Even though we go to Christian college, we're believers now because we've seen these discussions and so many atheists come into the faith. So that did not happen before social media. So we were tremendously blessed. Even though there's a dark side of social media that as odd as it is, guys and and women would watch what we were doing, especially his old stuff, probably on loop on day long car rides.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And they would come to the faith probably out of boredom eventually in those car rides on loop. So that's the benefit, I think truly of social media acting as that Roman Road, I'm sure for you as well and many others,

[A]

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[C]

We have friends who are racists.

[A]

That's. That's what they accuse you of.

[C]

That was especially yours. You. You're probably most viral. You told Tucker Carlson that. Right. You know, a big clip with Tucker on. On that one where it's mainly a Texas state, but you said it on multiple sites. I have friends who are racist.

[B]

Yeah. Two lesbians stepped out of the crowd, and they were obviously making a point. They were kissing and hugging and feeling each other right in front of me. And so we began to dialogue with them. And at one point I said, well, yeah, I have friends who are racist. And they said, oh, no, you can't. You cannot have a friend who's a racist. And I said, that's where you and I disagree. I'm convinced that every single human being is created in the image of God, and we all have equal value. And secondly, I'm convinced we all are sinners. I'm a dirty, rotten sinner. And guess what? You two are sinners as well. But God loves sinners. And that's why Christ died on the cross, to pay the penalty for our sin, to forgive us and to give us eternal life. And I'm gonna have friends with anybody. I work in prisons, and I got acquaintances and tried. While I was in seminary and went every Monday night to the Lawrence County House of Correction, I tried to build a friendship with a guy who'd kidnapped little boys, sexually molested them, and murdered them. And then when I would go into the gym to play basketball with the other inmates, they'd say, hey, man, how can you talk to this guy? He's a piece of dirt. And I said, look, guys, I know what he's done, and it's horrendous what he's done, but he's still a human being created in the image of God. And so that's such news for a lot of people today who love the cancel culture and canceling people right and left. No, we don't cancel people. We offer people the grace of God. We don't compromise. We don't compromise justice and integrity and sexual purity and. And all. But we're going to try and befriend everybody the same way Jesus did.

[A]

Yeah. It's interesting that there's a lot of people who would deny the reality of objective morality and objective truth, but they are very quick to draw hard lines around what they. Yeah. What they consider to be immoral or moral.

[B]

You bet.

[A]

It's not really the, it's not the existence of truth that they have a problem with. It's just how we actually define it and who we define as the authority. That's what I. Anyway, not just with people who profess to be atheists, but also those who call themselves progressive Christians. It seems to be who is the authority, which goes all the way back to the garden. Did God really? How about that? What has changed, you think, on colleges, college campuses, since you started in the early 80s to today?

[B]

Well, one of the reasons I'm so glad Stuart comes with me and one of the reasons I'm so glad I've got Sharon as my wife to talk to me about this is people are more emotionally fragile today than they were when we began back in the 80s and 90s. To give you an example, my dad grew up in Switzerland and when he was 18, he sat up in the Alps with a gun watching Hitler's Panzer divisions roll towards Switzerland. My grandpa, my dad's dad was in the front lines with his gun. Today, when Donald Trump wins the election, university students go to a crying room to get counseling. Give me a break. What emotional fragility, what incredible emotional weakness today compared to the young 18 year olds who fought against Adolf Hitler? So emotional fragility is there. And I'm so grateful for Stuart and for my wife Sharon, because they've helped me understand that and helped me not be quite as harsh and quite as direct as I have often, unfortunately been. So that's one point. The second point would be sexual immorality is embraced in a way that it's not sexual immorality, it's normal. So moral relativism and sexual immorality has become so commonplace that if you stand against that, you are really, really weird. Thirdly, unfortunately, what has become too infirmly entrenched is unless you can prove it scientifically, it's not true. I mean, it's fascinating to watch. One group is totally into relativism and the other group is into, unless you can scientifically prove it, it's not true. And so to be able to address both of those camps is a challenge. And they both are more and more firmly entrenched. And I think the gospel of Jesus Christ which is based on evidence, not scientific proof. The gospel of Jesus Christ, which allows for moral relativism in certain areas. You eat food offered to idols, okay? You don't eat food offered to idols. Paul writes, okay, don't make a big issue out of it. So there is some moral relativism in life and yet there is really a strong objective morality that comes from the character of the eternal God. And so it's a real challenge to try and communicate to students who are firmly entrenched in moral relativism that no, you can't live your life that way. I don't care if you're a liberal. You know very well that your critique of the conservatives is a moral, ethical critique. You're not letting enough immigrants in. You're elitist and the conservatives are the same way. And you live a sexually twisted life, a perverted life. So both are appealing to the moral argument, which I think is exciting because it really shows that we do have consciences, which means there really is a God.

[C]

The last point that I have found, that's been a big switch. When I started 11 years ago with him, I did not see for the first few years at least any type of devaluing of human life, the relativizing of human value like I do today. A couple of years ago I was, we tag team obviously, and he tagged me out. He tags in and this group follows me, very, very progressive group to, to a corner where I was eating a sandwich and they corner me and they say, hey, how dare you say that you are going to try and save the life of a suicidal 16 year old woman that's devaluing her freedom and autonomy. If anything you should aid her in her decision to kill herself. Now they wouldn't say get a noose or you know, push her off a cliff. They were more so saying though, a type of euthanization of like the elderly get, you know, whether it's a pill or something along those lines. And so they pressed me for a good hour in a very angry way. And it was a fairly big group and I was shell shocked, completely shocked. And I have a background in psychology, so you wouldn't think I'd be that shocked if I was up on the Times. But sure enough we kind of got around to the point of do you guys really mean this? Do you truly mean this? I think they got to the point of starting to realize just what they were saying and they were relativizing morality, objective value. Where do we get that from? So we see that in countries like Switzerland and many others that are pushing that type of thinking even more so than we are now. But that's one that I see where personal autonomy and freedom is considered really the top idea and thing to pursue even more so than the value of human life.

[A]

Yeah, you know my first book that we were talking about before, I talk about the cult of self affirmation and kind of like it's almost like a religious act of believing in the God of self and like the exchange of the God of scripture for the God of self. And I talk about the two highest values, I think in that cult of self affirmation being authenticity and autonomy, which can both be good things. We believe that we should be in control of our bodies and that the government shouldn't tell us that we have to take a vaccine or we have to do something with our bodies that we don't believe in. And then authenticity. You don't wanna lie, you don't wanna pretend to be something you're not. But when those two things are untethered to objective truth, to a higher authority, then they become excuses to sin. If autonomy is your highest value, then you can use it as an excuse for abortion or for suicide, because this is my highest value. If authenticity is your highest value, then you can self identify. Why can't you become a woman? Why can't you identify how you want to sexually? All of these things, including empathy. People get so mad when I talk about this because they believe empathy is the highest value. But what you just described is empathy run amok. Empathy for someone's choice and for someone's feelings. So much that you have to affirm. But if empathy is untethered to objective truth, it leads you to make really stupid, immoral decisions and so kind of going back again to authority. All of these things that I think a lot of progressives and atheists value. Empathy and compassion and love, intolerance and inclusion and authority or autonomy, authenticity. They're good when in submission to absolute truth, when they're not, they're actually very dangerous. And it sounds like you're kind of seeing that more and more. The manifestation of that. Next sponsor is Adele Natural Cosmetics. This is a family owned skin, skincare and cosmetic company. They hand make all of their products down in Texas. We with completely natural ingredients. You're not going to have any fake fragrances, any endocrine disruptors in any of their products. It's all completely holistic and it works so well. I've been using Adele Natural cosmetics for probably about five years now. Their essential cleanse cleanser is its name. It is an essential cleanser in my life. I use it every day. Their oil based products have really helped my skin glow without actually leaving my skin looking or feeling oily at all. Just clean and refreshed and moisturized. I love their bronzing stick, their bronzing or their moisturizing blush. I love their lips tints. It's all so good. And I love Arlene and their family. They're awesome. Go to adelenaturalcosmetics.com use code ALI for 25 off your first time purchase Adele natural cosmetics.com code ALI. You know, when I talk to pregnancy center directors, one thing that they will say that has changed over the years is that the women coming in are more calloused than before. They can show them a sonogram of their baby. And not every time, but more likely than it used to be. Those women will say, I don't care, I don't care about the heartbeat, I don't care. I know that I want an abortion. I'm gonna get an abortion now. Whereas before women would come in more open. It sounds like you're seeing, yes, more emotional fragility. Are you also seeing an increased callousness to the truth or to true biblical compassion on these college campuses?

[C]

Yes, for sure. Right? People love, students love to say, oh yeah, empathy, you can get that from evolution. Or altruism, you can get that from evolution. That is such a crazy stretch. I always like to say, fine, you can get a level empathy of empathy for your tribe coming out of evolution. But ultimately it would be tremendously selfish and dangerous for you to sacrifice for somebody else in a different tribe because you would be hurting your own tribe in doing so. So the Judeo Christian understanding of empathy, altruism, sacrifice, compassion, all of that is a joke and actually is harming your group if it's simply from an evolutionary standpoint. So for a Christian, we try and get to the point of saying, hey, Nietzsche would say that you claim to be an atheist, but if you were living by sacrifice, a care for human rights, compassion, love, then you claim to be an atheist when really you're just a Christian dressed up as supposedly an atheist. You think you are. And that's Nietzsche, who's kind of the top prophet, if you will, of atheism in the last hundred years. So we see that callousness, certainly. And yet at the same time, people like to say, oh, no, no, I'm a very empathetic person and I'm a pursuer of human rights. But the Idea of Jesus Christ and sacrificing for your very enemies, that idea is completely going away. And the idea of forgiveness, one philosopher was recently talking about is completely slipping away. The idea of forgiveness and how that used to be a virtue, a strong virtue, even in our nation, is a foreign concept now. It's no stand for the truth. We like justice. We even potentially like Judgment Day. This idea of forgiveness, no, that's going to harm people, actually.

[A]

Mm. I wonder if Charlie's assassination had a particular impact on y' all because he was doing something that you have been doing for decades. In that moment that he was shot and killed. He was dialoguing with people. He was saying things that are uncomfortable but true, sharing the gospel, sharing the truth about sexuality and gender. And I know that y' all have worked, I think, with Turning Point in the past and some of these campus tours. So can you talk about what it was like to learn that he had been killed on campus and then what your ministry has been like since then?

[B]

Well, obviously, that was an incredible tragedy, an act of violence, off the charts pathetic. Charlie was an incredible man of faith. One of the things I respected most about him was when he had us speak with him. We signed a form that said, I am not going to endorse any politician or any political party. And I respected that highly because I did not want to be involved with Christian nationalism, meaning by that America is the greatest country, and whatever we do is good. I am far too big a skeptic to buy that. I am convinced that America is a great country. When America follows Jesus Christ, and when America turns its back on Christ, we become a very ugly country. I don't care if it's slavery, child sex, traffic, trade, the exportation of pornography, greed, abuse of power. And I really appreciated the way Charlie continued to grow as a follower of Christ and continued to make the number one priority in his life Christ. And then, of course, he called people to be involved politically. And I respected that highly and commended him for his clear priority of putting Christ number one. I'm a real fan of Abraham Lincoln, who, during the Civil War, our minister came up to him and said, Mr. Lincoln, let's pray that God is on our side in this horrible conflict. And Lincoln shot back, no, I'm not going to pray that God is on our side. Let's pray that we are on God's side, for God's side is always right. You take God out of the picture, and you're percreek without a paddle. When it comes to explaining to me why Justice? Why love? Why integrity? If it's all relative, it's all a crapshoot, and it really doesn't matter what you do. And if you think about it, if there is no Day of Judgment and no heaven and no hell, then we all know where Mother Teresa and Adolf Hitler are. The same place, the fertilizer pit, rotting. But if there is a God and there is a Day of Judgment and there is eternal life either in heaven or hell, then all of a sudden, it does ultimately matter what Hitler versus Teresa do. And so I think Charlie had a tremendous ability to articulate very clearly what a brilliant guy he was and what a reader he was, the difference between justice and injustice. He articulated magnificently a biblical view of abortion, of sexuality. He was very respectful of students, as he would challenge them to think more deeply. But he did it in a highly respectful way. And to be honest with you, every encounter that I've seen Charlie have with somebody, I had the utmost respect for. So the vitriol that was directed against him was pathetic, I feel. Now, was he a little bit more radical politically, especially when he started out? And did he say some things probably, that I wouldn't agree with? Yes, I'm sure. I'm sure I say things he wouldn't have agreed with. So we all are unique individuals. We're not carbon copies. But I have profound respect for the way he loved Christ and insisted upon thinking carefully through the difficult issues that we all are confronted by in our culture.

[A]

And what about you? I mean, I know that y' all are bold and y' all know that, you know, I love the quote that says, we are immortal until God calls us home. He's totally sovereign over day of birth and day of death. But have you all been thinking any differently since September about visiting these sometimes hostile campuses?

[C]

Yeah, for the first time, we've had to certainly have security. And we. I'm not going to say too much in terms of that, but we have some ideas moving forward that we want to honor our. Our dedication, your dedication to free speech and how important it is and how Charlie would so frequently talk about it and how violence begins when talk ends and these discourses end. So for me, it. Being around Charlie and the future things we had planned together was very exciting. And the misunderstanding, we've had people leave our church. We've had been ostracized. When I led the vigil in our town, which is a very far left town, so definitely had a lot of backlash. And whenever I get that backlash, I'm always surprised, shocked by what even close friends say about him and what he did, because it's conspiratorial. It's to that extent of what he said and what he did. So that's tragic. In my mind, we know what it's like to really get poked by somebody who doesn't understand what you're saying has tremendous blinders making tremendous presuppositions about what you're saying and your character. Eventually you're going to, let's just say, speak back. And it's not always going to be gentle.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But if it's overly, and if overly gentle, that's actually not very effective in helping that person really think. Some of the people that we debate hardest against are the ones we get the biggest hugs from after our time together.

[A]

That's the best.

[C]

It's the best, isn't it? And so, so many people don't get that who are not part of these conversations, who are not in the Coliseum. And so, so for me, it's, it's definitely made changes in my mind as a young dad, like he was a young dad. That definitely played a role. And, and so moving forward, though, we definitely don't want to lose our boldness. We. Martyrdom is a fantastic thing according to our faith and the history of our faith. And yet at the same time, yeah, we don't want to be cavalier about it.

[A]

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[B]

University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. A grad student stepped out of the crowd and said, why are you here, Cliff? And I said, I'm here to introduce people to my closest friend, Jesus Christ. He said, let me ask you again why you're really here. I said, I am here to introduce people to Christ. He said, let me ask you a third time. Why are you really here? And I said, I am here to introduce people to Christ. He said, okay, I believe you. I said, well, why did you have to ask me three times? He said, because I'm convinced you're really probably here for a political motive. All right? So the challenge for us is to communicate Christ in a way that challenges people to seriously consider Christ. We're trying to wipe away smoke screens, and one of the smoke screens that people use to run away from Christ is by stereotyping us politically. So I make a real attempt, as does Stewart, to not address too many political issues. Instead, we're going to address moral issues. So we're going to address every ethical moral issue. But I learned from Billy Graham that we've got to be very careful how closely wedded to a politician we get. Dr. Graham got too close to Richard Nixon and the Watergate scandal broke out. And he began to realize I made a big mistake. So I want to be very, very careful. But I am insistent upon addressing every ethical issue. I don't care if it's abortion, homosexuality, immigration, feeding the poor, what the issue is, we're going to address it from a biblical perspective. In other words, we're teaching a biblical worldview. But we are very careful not to wed ourselves too closely to a politician. And to be honest with you, I have strong Disagreements with my liberal friends, and I have strong disagreements with my conservative friends. I'm convinced that the solution to America's problems is not a political solution. Instead, it's Jesus Christ who comes to change the human heart. Now, obviously, when the human heart is changed and when you embrace a biblical worldview, then you probably will vote differently politically.

[A]

Yes, that is true. That is true. What about you?

[C]

Yeah, the studies that I've seen is still the reason why young people don't go to church is one, hypocrisy, two, judgmentalism that they see in the church. And then the most recent poll I saw was over 70% of Gen Zers don't go to church because they don't receive answers to the hard questions that they have. So it's a blind belief that they think they're just being asked to accept. That's why I love what you do. We try and do it where it's no, there's reasons to the hope that we have. We're not just being gullible when we weren't just born into the faith. Although I don't judge my friends who were just born to the faith and haven't really thought through it much.

[B]

So.

[C]

But that stat is a lot tougher for me and I. It makes sense in some ways. When we spoke before the president, I don't know, two years ago, that was when he made that mistake that went quite viral where he said, I'm a Christian, I'm not a Christian. And at least it sounded like he said, I'm not a Christian. And so that went crazy. It went everywhere. And no, I think whether it's Melania, President Trump, I'm not going to speak for their faith position specifically. I've already done that before and got in trouble for it. So. So for me, it's more so whether it's just a label or whether you truly believe in the historical Christ, I think you got to get to the point of hopefully saying, hey, if I'm going to go by the label, let me be true and honest to what a real Christian is and who specifically Jesus Christ is. And we've seen the president in worship meetings, we've seen him on a lot of prayer with other pastors, but at the same time, I understand the human ego can come out. And at the same time, he had, gosh, I spoke, I did a commentary on it, but I can't remember exactly what he said. He said something that a lot of pastors took as pretty blasphemous. And so he, you see the wavering, for sure. But I think the idea, again, it's like the story of zacchaeus, Luke, chapter 19. When Zacchaeus climbs that sycamore tree, he's not looking at the crowd. He's looking directly at Jesus Christ. And so whether President Trump seems like he's living as a Christian or not, I hope this 48% doesn't ultimately decide whether to follow Christ or go to church based off of Donald Trump. I hope they look directly over the head of Donald Trump, even us, directly to Christ, because there's way too many spiritual leaders who are falling right now into whether it's an affair or something of the sort. And people are losing their faith that we know because their spiritual leaders are falling. And I always say, guys, that's just such. It's so misplaced. It's. You've got to look directly at Christ and who Christ is and decide on who he is and whether to have a relationship with him or not. Because he didn't have a hypocritical bone in his body.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

To follow him or not.

[A]

Yeah. You know, I think if those who, you know, they used Trump or supportive Trump as their impediment to not go to church, they really got to know the people who vote for Trump, they would realize that most people, like most voters across the board, are not idolizing a particular politician. This is one part of their life they feel a responsibility to engage politically. But. But I think a lot of people I see this, assume I've been called this myself, even though this is so not characteristic of who I am or what I believe. Oh, you just are a Trump apologist. You're just maga. You just are gonna support everything he says. And I'm like, that is not historically true at all. And you don't understand. That's not my worldview and not my focus. But I think that is a presupposition that a lot of people have that. And. And really, I just don't find that to be characteristic. As someone who has lived in the Bible Belt my whole life, it's an important thing. Politics matter because policy matters, because you got two centers on the ballot, and you have to pick one of them if you're gonna vote. That's how most Christians that I know think about it. It's not like, oh, this guy is perfect, and I want him to be my pastor. I wouldn't want Kamala Harris to be my pastor either. And so I just. I do wonder, you know, I. I heard a testimony recently of a woman and she was talking about. She was very progressive. She was secular. She was in an open marriage. She had this idea about Christians that Christians just can't bet on their own self sufficiency. So in their intellectual. This. These are her words. They had to find some answer to fill the gaps, you know, of all of their misunderstandings. And she read a book, and she was like, it offended me on every page. I was offended on every page because of what this person was saying about sexuality and the gospel and our need for a savior. And she. But she said, at the end of that book, I saw my sin. At the end of it, I realized, okay. And she was like, I honestly didn't need all of the other logical scientific stuff. Stuff she said her husband needed that. She was like, I didn't. I saw my sin. And that was like, enough. And that just made me think of this, that she would have said before she saw her sin. Oh, it's all these things. It's. Christians are weak, Christians are dumb, Christians are hypocrites. She might have even said they support Donald Trump. But at the end of the day, it was really that she just didn't see her sin. And when she saw her sin, none of those other things mattered. And so when I see a poll like this, I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. I think for all of us, not just them, for all of us, it's deeper. It's. We don't want to see our sin because it's hard. It's hard. Um, you recently wrote a book about doubt, came out in May called Demolishing Doubt. Um, and I want to hear more about why you. Why you wrote that. Tim Keller. And I wonder if you agree with this. He said that a faith without doubt is like a body without antibodies that you needed actually to, you know, to work out your faith. So I'm curious what you think of that and then why you decided to write this book.

[B]

There is an amazing lie in our culture, and that lie is Christians don't think. Scientists think. Christians don't think. Materialists, secularists, they are the real thinkers. I totally disagree with that. Jesus said, beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly, they are ferocious wolves. Jesus taught us to be skeptics, but not cynics. A skeptic is someone who refuses to believe blindly. And in John 14:11, Jesus says, Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father's in me, or else believe on the evidence of the miracles Themselves believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. So a follower of Christ is not someone who blindly believes. A follower of Christ is someone who wants to struggle through the issues. Why? Because good and evil are so intertwined that if you're not a skeptic you will have your lunch eaten for you. I am shocked by the man who said to me all I need to know about Islam is 9, 11. That is narrow minded bigotry. If I'm going to learn about Islam, I'm not going to look at the terrorists who blew the World Trade center apart in New York City. Rather I'm going to study the Quran and find out what did Muhammad say, what did he teach, how did he treat people, did he die and what happened after his death. And I better be willing to do the same with Jesus Christ. So to reject Christ because of some hypocritical Christian, to reject Christ because some Christians are politically different from me I think is a tragic, very prejudiced, very close minded approach to reality.

[A]

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[B]

Pray as hard as you can, love people as well as you can and study in other words. No, I don't think you have to take a course in comparative religion. But if you're Living next to an atheist. They're your neighbor, and you listen to them and listen and listen well. You want to understand what they believe and why they believe it. And if you've got a Muslim on the other side of your house living in the next neighborhood, and you're talking with that person, you're listening to them, then you want to understand what they believe and why they believe it. So that you can show by comparing and contrasting Jesus Christ with atheism, Jesus Christ with Islam, or Jesus Christ with hedonism, whatever the belief is of the person that you love and you're trying to communicate with. Listen, ask questions, begin to understand. In other words, feel around the rim of their life. You come to the crack, and that's where you apply the gospel. So, no, you don't have to have a PhD in apologetics or a PhD in comparative religion. No, but you better use the brain that God has given you because he gave it to you for a reason. And that means you better listen carefully, you better diagnose, and then you better study and find answers. The best answer that I give is, I do not know. But then I say, but for the past 2000 years, nobody's asked a question that's knocked the underpinnings out of faith in Christ. So I will go and find an answer and can we get together next week? And so I don't like to naturally study. I'm not an intellectual. I don't like to read that much. I do it because I want to love people by helping them see the truth of Christ.

[A]

You said something that I wonder if you could expound upon. And maybe you just did sufficiently. But I thought it was so interesting. You said, feel around the rim of their life, find the crack and apply the gospel. What does that mean?

[B]

That means we're all born broken. Life is about healing, and the grace of God is the glue. So, Ali, I got to find out if I want to be your friend, where your break is. Same way if you want to find out about me, you're going to find out where my break is, where my pain is. And then we apply the gospel in a loving, relevant way to that brokenness. And we allow the grace of God then to intervene. To intervene. I mean, some people say, cliff, I can't believe you call yourself a dirty, rotten sinner in light of the fact that you're a pastor. No, I don't have a porn problem. No, I'm not thinking about cheating on my wife. And no, I don't steal money from the irs. But I can promise you Cliff is not patient, kind. Cliff does boast, is envious, is greedy. I am a dirty, rotten sinner. That is why I need a savior. But if I buy into the lie in my culture that I'm a great guy and I'm a perfect guy, I don't need a savior because I'm totally autonomous. I'm this great, awesome, well put together guy. I mean, I went to Davidson College in North Carolina and we had a statement or they had a placard that said, a Davidson man needs no introduction. Excuse me. We all are broken. We all need a savior. We all need outside help. And that's exactly what Jesus Christ offers. And so to feel around a person's life means to realize, you know, we all are born broken. Now I've got to understand where your pain is, where your brokenness is, and then apply the gospel. At that point.

[A]

I think of when I think of doubt, I think of the unfortunate nickname that Thomas got for all of posterity, doubting Thomas. And he wanted to see Jesus's scars. And you know, Jesus says, blessed are those who believe without seeing. And yet we still regard Thomas as someone who ultimately did believe. And yet there is a higher level, it seems, of blessing. It is better to believe without seeing. What is the difference between healthy doubt that can lead us towards truths, can sanctify us, and unbelief that is really evidence of just like a lack of trust in who God says he is.

[B]

Well, you do a good job with that. Why don't you answer that one?

[C]

Well, so there is a chicken scratch of a note hanging in my dad's office. I don't know why he put it there.

[B]

I love it, but I think he

[C]

put it there probably because I was the biggest doubter of my. I was the doubting Thomas of my brothers. And the quote, Quote, I don't. I think it's anonymous. I don't know who wrote it, but it's. If Jesus Christ Christ called out on the cross, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Then surely we are allowed to doubt. But to choose doubt as a philosophy for life is akin to choosing immobility as a means for transportation. And so I think that quote answers your good question. It answers the question I've had for a long time, which is, if literally Jesus doubted my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Then we are allowed, even encouraged. You look at Habakkuk David. Habakkuk said, I thought you were from everlasting to everlasting David said, get away from me, O Lord. Death is my only friend. Thomas obviously doubted, even though he had eyewitness testimony and DNA evidence. And then Jesus said, stop doubting and believe. So I think back to doubting Thomas. That's where atheists love to try and pin us. Oh, clearly, Jesus is saying, never doubt. Well, actually, in the story of doubting Thomas, contextually, he's saying, doubt is very good. When he gets to the point of saying, stop doubting and believe, that is after the healthy doubt of his buddies telling him that Jesus rose from the dead, and then Jesus showing up saying, put your hand in the spear wound in my side. Touch my hands where the nails were stuck through my wrists. Now stop doubting and believe. So God understands how we speak when we are desperate. He understands how we speak when we are in pain, like Eugene Peterson talked about. And he says, you know what? You can be as irreverent, even say, screw you, God, if you like. And as long as you just keep speaking to me, that's what I desire. So just keep speaking to me. So a healthy form of doubt is saying, hey, God, I have no idea why you're allowing this. I don't even know if you exist. But I want there to be a God, and I believe that potentially you do exist. So I want to talk to you and say, hey, if you exist, please reveal yourself to me. Hey, if I believe you exist like David clearly did, then if I'm in pain when my sons are trying to kill me because I didn't discipline them, if I'm in pain because my boss is trying to kill me and I'm eating my tears day and night, well, eventually I'm gonna get to the point, though, of saying, okay, there's an unhealthy doubt, and I'm gonna shift to three times he says it in 42 and 43. Why you downcast, oh, my soul? Why so disturbed within me? Put your hope in God for yet praise him, my savior, my Lord. And I think all of us, if we're honest in here, have doubts that spring up from emotions, spring up from overthinking, spring up from ocd, spring up from our behaviors. And we have to get to the point after questioning, that's healthy. If it turns to cynicism or turns to serious doubt, you got to doubt those doubts. But then for me, you got to get to the point of saying, hey, look, I've done this a million times. This could be the devil, the world, the flesh, the devil really causing these doubts. I want to be like David now and say, why are you downcast on my soul? Why so disturbed within me? Fix those thoughts, fix that pain. Grab your heart, preach to your heart, rather than just having your heart preached to you. And now say, I'm going to praise you as my Lord and my God. I'm going to thank you for things. And that's when that unhealthy doubt starts to dissipate.

[A]

That's when you go from, like, you're kind of arguing that Thomas had gone from healthy skeptic to cynic, where he was about to go into that. And Jesus is like, look, you. You gotta believe. You said. You said one thing. And I'm. I'm wondering if we could talk about it a little bit more that. I think you were quoting someone else when you said, it's okay to even say something like, screw you, God, or something like that, as long as you're continuing to talk to God. But I do think about Job. Job who had everything taken from him. And he starts to crack a little bit. He starts to kind of question God, like, okay, what the heck? I've been faithful. I've been trying to do these things. And God answers him out of a whirlwind. And he spent several chapters same, were you there during creation? Were you there when I called forth, you know, all of these different animals, creatures, the sun, the stars, and all of that. God answers with his authority, does not give Job even a single excuse. And doubting in that moment or questioning God's goodness and faithfulness. So I wonder what the balance is there, because I. I do think God cares how we talk about him and the things that we say to him. Not that he can't handle it. Like he's fragile, but he cares. He cares in how we relate to him. So I've heard people say things like that, like, God can handle it if you shake your fist at him. Like, sure, he can handle it. Don't know if he likes it. Don't know if he likes it. So I don't know, like, what's. What's the balance there between us expressing our fear, our doubt, our emotions to God, even our feelings of betrayal, as wrong as they may be, but also making sure that, okay, I'm talking to a holy God. I'm talking to the God of the universe, who actually does not fail. I wonder how we balance those two things.

[C]

Stalin died on his. On his deathbed, shaking his fist, literally at God. And oddly enough, Christopher Hitchens did the same thing in a different way. And there was a crucifix above his hospital bed that I don't think he knew about until he was dying in that bed. So the strongest atheists who are the most militant towards God. Exactly. Let's just say they were very irreverent in shaking their fists at God. And when Paul, for example, says something in Ephesians, let no unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. Or when James talks about to your good point, you know, why do we bless God? Why do we praise God but then curse our brother and sister who are created in God's image? And so there's automatically endless amounts of verses in Scripture that are implying indirectly commanding us to speak in a very reverent way towards God. I mean, he is the creator of all things. So if he's our Father and our king, like Romans 8 talks about, why in the world would we not speak to him very reverently? So you're exactly right that that has to come number one. But I just think it's so interesting that God gives us so much space because he understands our humanity. But getting to the point again of the Psalms, that ends in those final five chapters praising and thanking God that David, even though he speaks irreverently at times, back in Psalm 13, how long, O Lord, come on, God, do something about this. You're right. It always ends at praise because he is the God of the universe who loves us unconditionally and so we are to submit to him.

[B]

I think we have the perfect balance of what you're asking in Genesis 18, when Abraham is standing over Sodom and Gomorrah and he asks God, are you going to wipe it out if there are 50 righteous people? Well, what about 45? 40, 35, 30. And I think Abraham is obviously struggling with doubt. Obviously he didn't get the memo of certain people that say, you're not allowed to doubt. No, he doubted and he questioned. He questioned, will the judge of all the earth do? Right. But in his questioning there was a reverence, there was a respect, respect for God throughout the entire time. So I think that Abraham in Genesis 18 is a tremendous example of that balance that you were asking about.

[A]

Yeah, we do see that. It seems, as you're saying, I'm remembering just a lot of instances, especially in Genesis, where you see God's chosen person definitely not be the most confident, definitely not be the boldest. But the guy who's like, I don't really see how we're going to pull this off. But okay, I guess. And that is comforting. It's comforting to all of us. Last sponsor is Good Ranchers. July is National Grilling Month and y', all, it is almost over so you want to take advantage of it with all American meat from Good Ranchers. We eat Good Ranchers multiple nights a week. We've got better than organic chicken that we love. They've got amazing bacon. They've got seed oil free chicken nuggets that you and your kids will love. They've got all different cuts of salad steak. They've got beef, they've got seafood. They really do have it all. And they even have hot dogs, y'.

[C]

All.

[A]

So I did not realize that. But Good Ranchers also has hot dogs. Everything from an American farm or ranch. What could be better than celebrating America's 250th birthday and national grilling month and 4th of July month with all American meat from Good Ranchers. Go to Good Ranchers.com use code ALLY. You'll get $50 off at check out GoodRanchers.com Codali, You write something really interesting on page 19 of your book. You say, as I've been telling students for decades, I can't say I'm absolutely certain that God exists or that Jesus rose from the dead because frankly, I can't say I'm 100% certain about anything in this world. It might shock some people to hear you say that.

[B]

I think it's a mistake for Christians to act like I never struggle with uncertainty. I'm always certain. I think it's erroneous communication to say I never doubt. I am absolutely positive that God exists. I'm absolutely positive that Jesus rose from the dead. I'm actually positive about the Bible being the word of God. I think that miscommunicates because I think if we're going to be honest, if we're going to look at the evidence, we're going to have to acknowledge that there are holes. I used to make the mistake of in my enthusiasm, saying, well, the Bible have no errors in it. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Then I had to debate Dr. Bart Ehrman down over at Chapel Hill and he's correct. There are 200,000 to 400,000 manuscript variants in the New Testament alone. But in the debate he didn't go on to acknowledge, but wait a second. Those 200,000 to 400,000 manuscript variants are found in approximately 25,000 manuscripts. So you do the math, Dr. Ehrman. That's between eight and 16 variants per manuscript or piece of manuscript. But you see, when I, as a Christian, come on too strong with an absolute certainty, oh, no, this is the Bible, is the word of God, and there's no variance, there's no problems in the text. That's a little bit untrue. And that is the mistake I'm convinced that the Muslims make. I'm convinced that when they treat the Quran as this spotless, errorless book, they're making a big mistake. I think the evidence is when the third caliph asked a young man who had written the Quran for Muhammad to put together the correct one and then to have all the other ones destroyed. My goodness, what's going on here? So I think we've got to be honest intellectually, admit that there are hard questions, admit that I have doubts, because that is the truth.

[A]

Why should we trust in the word of God if there are variants that exist in some of the manuscripts?

[B]

Because skepticism is good, but hyperskepticism is destructive. Ali, there's no proof that when Stuart and I came in here, we didn't have knives in our back pockets and we were out to kill you. It's possible. But if you have that type of hyperskepticism, you're going to be a very lonely, isolated person because you're never going to be able to trust anybody. And if I don't trust you for good reason, I'm going to lose a tremendous privilege of getting to know Ali. And that's true for every person. So the challenge is not to be naive and gullible. You've got to be a skeptic. But if you're a hyper skeptic, you're going to wipe out everybody. You're going to wipe out knowledge. How do you grow in knowledge? You grow in knowledge by looking for evidence, not demanding proof, then making a trust step, trusting that person, trusting that information that you've accepted and testing it and finding out, is this really true? Is this person really reliable or not? And that's a process, and that's the way we develop relationships and friendships. It's through a process, and that's the way we develop knowledge. If any postdoc student in mathematics thinks they know everything there is to know about mathematics, they are really arrogant, out of touch with reality. If any postdoc person in biology thinks they know everything there is to know about biology, they are really off the wall. And I can promise you I don't know everything there is to know about God. And there's a lot of mystery about God and I don't know why God allows certain things to happen. And if I look into the face of a grieving person who's just lost their child and say, oh, well, I'll tell you why God allowed that. Because he's sovereign and everything's just his will. That's a type of fatalism and determinism that I find to be very scary. But what's fascinating is it's the logical conclusion of atheism and it's also the logical conclusion of Islam. It's the wall of Allah. Everything's the will of Allah. Everything's determined. Oh, no, no, no, no, I understand that. No, no, no. There's a great deal of mess going on in this world. And to call the death of a young child the will of God. I'd be very, very careful to go down that path. A lot of mystery. I don't know why God allows a lot of things to happen. I do not know.

[A]

Yes, there are things, I think people ask, why does this happen? We can talk about a fallen world. And for me, I understand that in a general way. Okay, we understand there's cancer, there's war, there's conflict, there's drought, there's natural disaster and things like that. When you get into the specific stories of, say, the torment of a child or the sexual abuse of this vulnerable person, the horrib. Horrible stories that we see, yes, it is very hard. And I think, like, you're so right, we should be honest about that. I can't look at a horrible story of the torture and the death of a child and say, yeah, well, you know, that's just how it is. But the one thing I do know, and that brings me comfort is that Jesus is coming back. That he also is not apathetic to the pain. He's not looking at that little child and say, well, that's just how things come go. It's a fallen world, that he's going to pay back all of those evil deeds that were done and he's going to do away with evil forever and ever. And that's kind of like that's. We're just personally not even from an apologetic standpoint, maybe it's self. Apologetics to myself. When I see things like that, I'm like, okay, God, I'm not good, but if I were all powerful, I would have stopped that. What do I do with that? That's hard. That's. That's a hard. That's a hard thing. I think all of us would, if we were all powerful, knowing that we're not as good as God is. If we had the power to stop the terrible infliction of pain on a vulnerable person, we would do it. Yet God is all powerful, all good, and sometimes he chooses not to. I don't know why, except that I know that he cares about that too. And he's going to do something about it one day. And that's kind of like sometimes where you, to me at least where you have to go, because there are mysteries in Life. On page 166 you discuss that atheists actually have miraculous assumptions themselves. Um, and I thought, I just thought this section was really memorable and really interesting. Something I hadn't really thought about before. And we're about to close out the conversation. There's so much I could ask you, but can you talk about that? Like people think that we make these miraculous assumptions about God being good and holy, everything we just discussed, as well as Jesus's miracles, but people who don't believe in Christ also have miraculous assumptions.

[B]

Every atheist friend of mine has to believe non existence proves produces existence. That's a miracle. Non existence producing existence, That's a miracle. The only problem is my atheist friend doesn't have a miracle worker. All of my atheist friends have to believe chaos produces order. That's a miracle. The only problem is my atheist friend doesn't have a miracle worker. Every atheist friend of mine has to believe non reason produces reason. That's a miracle. The only problem is my atheist friend, you don't have a miracle worker. Every one of my atheist friends has to believe non life produces life. That's a miracle. Sorry, my atheist friend, you don't have a miracle worker. Every one of my atheist friends has to believe matter and energy produce love. That's a miracle. Sorry buddy, you don't have a miracle worker. Every one of my atheist friends has to believe meaninglessness produces meaningfulness. That's a miracle. Sorry, bud, you don't have a miracle worker. So it's because of that type of evidence that I am convinced that God exists.

[A]

What about you? When you have confronted some of these atheists when they're met with the reality of what you just said, which is just like the very basic thing of like, okay, order had to come from something. Where did all of this come from? Has that ever stumped a skeptic who realizes, oh yeah, I also have a lot of presuppositions myself.

[C]

Yeah, when I heard this morning was I've had short conversations with Lawrence Krauss. I don't know him well, but you know when he says something like you know, let's. Let's find a way to do away with God and away with a creator. We could say that whether it's coming from black holes or he specifically goes with gravity having always existed and creating all. So we don't know. We don't need to, and we don't know. But especially we don't need to and believe in something outside of space and time. Needing to create space and time, probably through a big bang. Lawrence Krauss goes this ridiculous idea that's tremendously ambiguous with zero evidence behind it, saying, oh, no, you know. You know, this type of nothingness has always existed, but he doesn't know how to define nothingness. And that's what so many of these atheists do. Now that. That's such, like a. A typical thing they like to really propose, which is, well, nothingness is somethingness, and it's always. This somethingness has always existed.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And they'll typically call it gravity, and gravity produced something.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But there's not a shred of evidence for it.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And that's why I like so many atheist cosmologists who actually push back against it. They'll say, that's actually not an answer at all.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah. There's a comedian who said something about that argument that was like, so this nothing, it's always been here, and it was powerful enough to create everything.

[C]

I love that clip.

[A]

Sounds. Sounds like something else that the Christians have been talking about. Well, thank you guys so much. I could just go on and on. Y' all are fascinating and brilliant apologists, so thank you for what you do. Your book is demolishing doubt. It's available wherever books are sold, I assume. And if people want to catch you speaking, do they have a place where they can find where you'll be going next?

[B]

Where do people find that, Stuart?

[C]

I guess the easiest will be our Instagram account, which is Stewart Underscore Connectley. And then give me an answer with Cliff and Stuart Connectley on. On YouTube. We'll try and put it up there.

[A]

We've got our Luddite Internet sensation.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

Well, thank you all so much. I appreciate it.

[B]

Thank you for all that you do. Yeah, keep going.

[A]

You too.

[B]

God's using you.

[A]

Thank you,

[C]

Sa.