← Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey
Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey
Ep 1378 | Does the Dave Ramsey Method Work for Today’s Economy? | George Kamel
01:07:56
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- [00:01]
A
Does Gen Z have it all wrong when it comes to finances? Is it really that much harder to pay a mortgage than it was when our parents were growing up? Today we've got George Camel. He is a personal finance expert. He is the co host of the Ramsey show and Smart Money Happy Hour for Ramsey Solutions. We'll be talking about finances in marriage, some of the biggest myths when it comes to how to spend your money. Tithing so much more. I learned a lot from this conversation and you will too. George, thanks so much for taking the time to join us. For those who may not know, who are you and what do you do?
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B
Who am I? It's an existential question.
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A
It is. You can go as deep as you want.
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B
I'm a Ramsey personality, which means I work under, you know, Dave Ramsey and our crew to help people get out of debt, build wealth, sort of, you know, throw truth at all the lies that they're believing to give them some hope that their financial future is still possible. And too many people have lost hope. And that was kind of my story. I grew up in Boston, immigrant parents from the Middle East. We had a pretty middle class upbringing. They were pretty frugal, but I never really learned about money. And so when it came to college and credit cards, I just went, well, this is the path, this is what you do. Everyone says your life will be great. So I took out a bunch of student loans, was in a bunch of credit card debt.
- [01:29]
A
Yeah.
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B
And found myself at 23, anxious, broke, stressed, going what they told me it was going to be fine. And so then I spent the next couple of years cleaning it up as I started here as an intern 13 years ago. And so they had this course called Financial Peace University. So I went through it and it gave me the motivation to go, you know what, I don't need to wait 10, 20 years, hope for, you know, student loan forgiveness, hope for someone else to clean up a mess that I made. And so within 18 months, I became completely consumer debt free. And within a decade, I went from negative net worth broke to a net worth millionaire just by following the Ramsey plan as a W2 employee. And so I want to shout from the rooftops, it is possible for anyone out there, no matter where they're starting.
- [02:13]
A
Okay, you said that your parents grew up in the Middle east, you're first generation American. Yes. Can you talk a little bit about your upbringing and maybe how that affected how you thought about financ finances?
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B
Absolutely. So in the Middle Eastern culture there is a heavy emphasis on the hospitality and the Frugality. And so a lot of that is I want people to feel welcome, to feel warm, but there's also this air of, like, I want people to feel like I'm doing good. So part of that is you don't really talk about money. It's kind of a faux pas. And so I just learned, hey, we're cutting up coupons on Sunday. I watched my dad drop the tithe check in church. He let me do it, which I thought was really cool. So I want to do it with my kids. If there's still checks once they're old enough, who knows what will happen? So watching us kind of grow up, I saw him stress about money. I saw him open the nine credit cards and try to juggle the points and cash back and. And playing the game. But they worked really hard. There's a work ethic among immigrants that is hard to beat. And. And they love America. Like, my dad is the guy with the American flag pin who's. You know, and so they still, to this day, have an accent. I don't understand how, but it. You know, it's been 35 years, guys.
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A
Let's.
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B
Let's get it together. But I think there's such a warmth in that culture of frugality. And that really helped shape the way I spend money. But the way I save money, I had to learn the hard way, starting from nothing. And 4 in 10Americans have $0 in savings. So I was squarely in that camp going, it's good to save money while you're spending. I didn't realize it's also good to save for the future. So even when I got my first jobs, I was blowing every paycheck.
- [03:47]
A
Mm. You said that y' all grew up going to church. Your dad spent his tithe money. That might be a little bit surprising for people who heard that your parents grew up in the Middle East Muslim majority. Can you talk a little bit about their faith and how they pass that down to you?
- [04:02]
B
Absolutely. That is a shocking point. I always glance over it, and people are like, wait, what? Your family's not Muslim? Like, no, they. They never were. And there is a small population, like, 5% of Christians in the Middle East. And thankfully, that's the way that they grew up. My mom grew up Catholic, actually, and at a young age, converted over, and my dad grew up in a. In a kind of a Coptic Orthodox Christian home. And so those values were brought over, and they met at an Arabic Baptist church in Houston, Texas.
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A
Okay.
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B
There's, like, five of them in the country.
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A
I was about to say Arabic Baptist.
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B
Yes. So I grew up going to an Arabic Evangelical Baptist church in Boston, Massachusetts. And to me, that was normal.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And it's all Arabic community. A lot of the kids, like me, they speak English first generation, but the sermons are in Arabic, the Sunday schools in English taught by the, you know, the Arabic ladies. And so it was just a very interesting kind of melting pot of culture in this very Irish, Italian, Catholic town. I was like the one kid bringing, like, grape leaves to lunch.
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A
Yeah.
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B
You know, all the kids had PB and Js.
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A
Yeah. You mentioned tithing and that. Even amongst your dad, you know, trying to juggle the saving and the points and the coupons. He was a faithful tither. Talk a little bit more about tithing. It can be as, you know, controversial topic of what it actually means. Does it have to be 10%? Should it be more than 10%? Have to be your local church? Can it be to charity? Can you kind of give us what the Bible says about tithing and what your perspective is on it?
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B
Absolutely. This is surprisingly controversial. I don't know why in today's world and people who don't have a faith background, it is so confusing to them, like, why would you work this hard and then just give 10% to the church? Like, why does God need your money? I'm like, okay, let me. I always say this way. God doesn't need your money. He wants your heart. And if you can't bother with the 10%, then your treasures are not in heaven. Your treasures are here on earth. And you're going, I don't trust God that I can live on 90%. That's what it is. It's obedience. It's a trust game. And so that's where tithing comes into play. And, you know, tithe, when you look at the actual roots of the word, is a tenth, and it's a tenth of your first fruit. So the profits. So it's not necessarily, you know, people want to argue, is it gross or is it net? And what if I get a gift? And I think the more legalistic we get about it, the further away we get from the heart of tithing. You know, God loves a cheerful giver. And if we're doing the math and calculations to make sure that we don't give a decimal more or decimal less, I think we've lost the plot. And so really is a matter of the heart. We always say, give a little until you can give a lot. There's beautiful parables in the Bible of you Know, the lady had a penny to give and that was more, it meant more for her than the guy who gave the 10% of his riches. And so I think it's, it's wise to remember that it really is, it stems from the heart. What is your posture towards this? Are you doing it because it's an obligation or are you doing it out of a thank you Jesus for providing me with the blessings in my life?
- [07:06]
A
And tithe goes to your local church? Some people say, oh, as long as it's going to some kind of Christian non profit, it's basically the same.
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B
It is for the mission of the church. And so to me there's the tithe and then if you want to give above and beyond that, be my guest. And so that's what we do in my house is we have our tithe and then we separate out the non profits, the ministries that we want to give to outside of that. But there is something about investing into your local community and the people there and the pastors and the staff and the missions that they, they have going on. I think one, you're more connected to it. It means more.
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A
Is it possible to be unwise with charitable giving?
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B
Well, we've run into people who are, they're giving so much that it's leaving their own families in a lurch. And so we always say, you know, you want to make sure that your family is taken care of. So if you're giving 30%, I love that. But if you're also broke, stressed, your marriage is, you know, on the rocks, your kids are struggling, you can't put food on the table. Well, that's not biblical in any way. Like you've got to take care of your family. And so that means here's what we have to do. Get our finances right, get out of debt, have more margin so that we can get back to giving as much as we want. And that takes a lot of intentionality. Giving happens from abundance. It's hard to give when you don't have anything to give. And it's why the baby steps exist. They don't exist to hoard it up and go, whoo, we got 10 million. It is live and give like no one else. Build wealth and give is the final baby step. And that looks different for everyone.
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A
So you're saying that it is a biblical responsibility to first care for and steward your family? Well, yeah.
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B
I mean, the Bible says you're worse than an unbeliever if you don't take
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A
care of your family members.
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B
Yeah, I mean, that's that's pretty striking language there.
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A
Right?
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B
That'll. That'll put me. All right, let's make sure that my house is in order before anyone else's.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Put your own mask on first.
- [09:06]
A
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B
I think people underestimate the freedom that exists when you go, you know what? I'm a steward of this money. It's not mine. I'm managing for someone else. And when you do that, you look at money through a whole different lens. Because now it's not all about me and my selfishness. And what could I do with this? It frees me to go, okay, it's God's money. I want to do three things with it. Enjoy it, save it, invest it wisely and give it. Now we at least have three buckets. We can, you know, use our money for. That's already freeing in and of itself to go, okay, there's only three things we can do. It doesn't have to be that complicated. Now, in those three things, how do we enjoy it wisely? Well, obviously we don't want to, you know, use it on debauchery, but you can use it to go on vacation, you can use it to upgrade the car, you can use it to have a nice house. That's okay. Those things aren't evil in and of themselves. And investing, we saw this with the parable of the talents who got all the, the accolades, the guy who actually planted it and grew the money versus the guy who planted it and nothing came of it and it was just wasted. And so you want to make sure that you're steering this well, that it's growing so that you can give an inheritance to your children's children, as Proverbs says. And then lastly, giving. Giving is talked about a whole lot. And I think, you know, with the 2300 scriptures about wealth and possessions, I think the, the authors of the Bible knew that we would struggle with the treasures on earth part more than the treasures in heaven part. And so there's a reason why there's so much language. There's so many scriptures about money, how to handle it, what it's for, what it's not for the borrower to slave to the lender. There's a reason it's talked about. And even today, thousands of years later, it hits more than ever.
- [12:38]
A
You talk about that parable of the talents, the guy who hid the talent away. The master comes back and you're like, you know my paraphrasing. He's like, stupid, wicked. Why did you do that? You made the bad decision. And even if that's not an exact metaphor for stewarding our cash and our money, I think that there are ways to interpret that. Is it possible to be too frugal? Is it possible? Yes. Say someone's tithing, but the rest of the 90% that they have, they don't want to do anything with it except hold tight to it. Is that wrong?
- [13:14]
B
So is frugality a sin? I feel like that's, that's. It's be hard to put that in the sin category. But I do think that the idea of frugality, if it's just to save, save, save, and there's nothing on the other side, which is one. Why am I being Frugal to create margin, to have kingdom impact, great, that's a healthy motive. But if it's just to save because I'm miserly and I have a scarcity mindset, there's no biblical scripture to back that up.
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A
What specifically in the Bible helps us understand clearly kind of that right mentality of stewarding our, stewarding our money and tithing in the right way?
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B
Well, I always go back to what does the Bible actually say about the tithe? Not what do I feel about it. What did I heard and what did I hear in a sermon? And so I love this ver from Malachi 3, bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. I love this part. Test me in this, says the Lord Almighty, and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it. I mean, that's pretty shocking. There's not many scriptures that say, test me in this. I mean, most of the time you hear, do not test me, says the Lord your God. You know, he's like, hey, test me. See if your life will be worse if you're obedient. Yeah, those are pretty strong words. And then we have in, you know, Proverbs 3, honor the Lord with your wealth, with the first fruits of all your crops, then your barns will be filled to overflowing and your vats will brim over with new wine. So there's a interesting concept here, which is if I give, I will have less, right? I had 100%, now I have 90%. The Bible saying, that's not how it actually works. When you give, there is abundance on the other side, there is blessing on the other side. Now this is not prosperity gospel where if I give 10, I'm going to get back 20. It's not that kind of spiritual vending machine. But I do think it changes you. And therefore you go act differently, you live differently, you work differently, and those kinds of people tend to succeed in life. Generous people are attractive, right?
- [15:15]
A
Has there ever been a time that you can think of in your life where you were scared to be generous and then you did it, you obeyed despite that hesitation and then you saw the blessing on the other side.
- [15:27]
B
Absolutely. I remember times where it was more, it was more closed fisted, like I kind of like had to through my teeth. You were sort of letting go. And in the letting go, you like, you feel like the muscles give out. Like, oh, this was so much more relaxing and freeing than Having it. Like, I thought about it so much, about how much should I give? And, you know, what about this nonprofit and what about this over here? And, you know, we have friends that are missionaries, and I have no clue how they're doing. I don't keep up with it. So there's times you're like, should I take that out of the budget and rip that away? And I go, no, we've been doing great so far. We've been blessed. We have had full abundance. Why am I now trying to close the grip? And I think anytime I go to close the grip, I go, what is going on inside of me that is causing this? And it's usually these exterior kind of worldly forces at play versus going, no, remind me what this was all about. It was not about me. It was about Kingdom Impact. And so I can't think of much better ways to spend your money than on Kingdom Impact. And the hardest part about that is you don't always get to see the effects.
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A
Yeah, on this side of eternity.
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B
Exactly.
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A
Yeah. You talk to people every day who are struggling with debt, struggling with their finances. I see a lot of chatter on X about the affordability crisis and how baby boomers just don't get it. They don't get what millennials and Gen Z are facing. What do you think the real problem is? Do you think it is more of a spending problem? The same problem that people have always had? Irresponsibility, not understanding how much they're spending, what. What they really need versus what they want, and that's what's creating this debt crisis? Or do you truly think that young people today have it uniquely hard?
- [17:13]
B
Well, there. There's the data part and there's the emotion part. And I do think that when it comes to, you know, intergenerational conversations, we're not hearing each other. The boomers hear complaints and they go, oh, shut up. It was hard for me to. That's not what they want to hear. What they want to hear is, hey, you know what? It is hard. And here's what I've learned, and I hope this helps. If we just started having those kinds of conversations, we'd all get along better at Thanksgiving. But all you hear is the boomer saying, oh, it's not that hard to buy. You're throwing away money on rent. Go buy a house. And the millennials are going, I don't understand. I don't think you understand what a $400,000 mortgage at 6% actually costs. And so there's a math reality to it. That back in the boomers days, the average home was two to three times the average income, the median income. And nowadays it's five to six times the median income. So there is a legitimate math problem here to solve with this, you know, affordability crisis. And it sounds very woe as me and cynical. I think it's overblown in the media because it gets a lot of clicks. And who doesn't want to have an empathetic voice telling them that they're not crazy, that they're not alone? And so I feel like my job on the money side is to say you're not crazy and this isn't hopeless. Now is it going to be easy? Will it take you four or five more years than it did for your parents to buy a home? Our car is more expensive. Yes. That doesn't mean you need to go out and buy a brand new car. And so that's the fallacy here is, well, the median home price is this. The average new car is this. That doesn't mean that you have to be average. That doesn't mean that you need the median home. Your first home might be well below the median. Which by the way there's, that means half the homes are lower than that 400,000 mark. Half of them are higher. And so same with cars. We see this all the time. People go, well, I had to buy a $35,000 car because ours had need a repair. And I go, oh, you had to. So that's the language that tells me that there is, there's like a victim toddler inside who just wants the thing and justifies it with, well, life is hard, I deserve it, I work hard. And I go, you're right, you work too hard to be broke. And making these decisions will keep you in, in that cycle. So there is a math part, there's a behavior part, there's the emotional part. And I think we need to kind of just get some clarity on the actual facts, the actual numbers. Because I found when people lean too far into the emotion, I can get them out with logic and math. And hey, tell me what's, what actually is going on? What are the numbers? Oh, your mortgage payment is not on Fire. It's $2,000 out of your $8,000 income. That's not the problem. Or if they're too focused on the numbers, I take them into the emotional part. Hey, what kind of life do you want? What would it feel like to have a paid off mortgage as you toil over the numbers? And so I find that kind of Leaning into both levers really helps me to find some moderation and temperance.
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A
Yeah. And what I'm about to say, I'm not a finance guru. That's definitely not my beat. And I don't want to dismiss the very real concerns people have about affordability. And it taking longer four to five years in a young person's life is a. Yeah. When they think about, okay, well, I want to have kids. I need more space for that and all of that so I can understand someone legitimately struggling with that. I do wonder, as someone who sees the social media world up close and personal, if our tolerance for ugly and outdated has shrunk, if it's very low. Like, I think about my parents, different era, but got married in 1980, lived in a rundown house. The step up, they would say, was the double wide they moved into after that, infested with water bugs, which, if people don't know, they're like cockroaches. But yeah, even worse, my mom would say she still has a phobia of those. Raising my oldest brother when they were 20 and 21, really difficult. But I wonder if they would have even opted for those very frugal options if Instagram had been a thing. I just think that a lot of people expect to be able to afford the newly updated home with quartz countertops, because anything other than that feels poor or it feels ugly or it feels gross. And I'm not saying that that superficiality is characterizing every single millennial in Gen Z out there, but I even feel it in myself. Like my own expectations for aesthetics have changed from where they were 10, 15 years ago. And the expectation to constantly be new and clean and most up to date and prettiest, I think that's really compelling for people and that shifts our mentality about what we are entitled to and like, what we need and what we deserve, even if we're only making $40,000 a year. Do you think that's. Excuse me, do you think that's part of it?
- [21:55]
B
A hundred percent. We have shifted from a generation that is just trying to survive. And I'm not talking about like paycheck to paycheck. I'm talking about like Great Depression survival. And now with each new generation, we have become wealthier. Now, it may not feel like it in the short term, but when you think about our quality of living and our standard of living and what we have access to, yeah, it is worlds of different than it was for our parents and grandparents. So you're right in that. That home with the Knotty pine backboard that I grew up with. Thousand square foot home, one bathroom. People aren't buying one bathroom homes anymore. They go, well, I need at least a three, three bed, two and a half bath. This townhome is not big enough for our family. I do think that we just like having more space. Millennials, especially in Gen Z, we care more about aesthetic. We now know like feng shui and like how it affects our emotional well being and we want natural light. And that's, that's all great. But we've become sort of over evolved to where anything less is now. Pain and suffering. And I get it. I'm an aesthetic person. I like to have a beautiful home and that's where I put a lot of my effort. And there's other things that I don't care about. And so you need to as a person decide what, where are my values? Why are they there? Is it because of comparison? Teddy Roosevelt said that's the thief of joy. And I love the way Pastor Craig Groeschel says it. Comparison will either cause you to feel inferior, lesser than or superior, better than. And both are not biblical. And so therefore what place does comparison really have? And so the way I like to look at comparison is the only time I'm going to look at my neighbor's bowls to make sure they have enough. If you can have that mentality and stop caring about what other people think. It is a superpower in today's world.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And that might mean buying the fixer upper house and the cabinets desperately need to be redone. But it's a home.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And guess what? Your child does not care.
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A
Right?
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B
What they care about do. I have present functional healthy adults who aren't fighting constantly. Great. I'd rather be have that in a worse home than a really beautiful home that is stressing mom and dad out to the point that they're on the brink of divorce. So that's what you really have to weigh and know that anything you have in your life is not your forever thing. The car, the home. I bothers me when people say, well this is going to be our forever home. Your forever homes with Jesus. And you might have this home for 10, 20, maybe even 30 years. But let's not get it twisted and justify bad decisions because we feel like this is it.
- [24:30]
A
Next sponsor is We Heart Nutrition. I love We Heart Nutrition. I use this product maybe more than any other product or maybe as much as my most used products, I would say because I use them every single night without fail. Doesn't matter Whether I'm at home or whether I'm traveling, I always have my supplements. I've got my prenatals, I've got my iron, I've got my Omega 3s, I've got my magnesium. I don't skip these because they make me feel better. I just got blood work done actually at my last baby appointment just to make sure I wasn't anemic. I typically struggle with anemia. My thyroid's good and everything came back perfect. And I really attribute so much of that to my we heart nutrition supplement regimen. Every single ingredient comes in the most bioavailable form so your body is actually absorbing it. They've got all different supplements for every stage of life. Another Christian pro life family owned company that I love weheartnutrition.com code ali for 20 off weheartnutrition.com code ali. How do you talk to your kids? I know your kids are super little, so maybe it's how do you plan to talk to your kids about money? One of my kids the other day asked me, what's rich? I was like, I, you know, I guess we hadn't really talked about that. And they're like, you know, who's rich that we know? Like, what is that? What does that mean to be rich? It's like, well, you, you have a lot of money. Are we rich? No. We have food and we have clothes and we have a house and you get to go to school and that's wonderful. But it made me think like, how should I be talking to my kids who are also pretty little but older than yours, about money? Because I don't want to just dismiss it as something, oh, that's inappropriate. You should never talk about that. But I also don't want them to be fixated on it and I definitely don't want them to be comparing.
- [26:23]
B
Yeah, well, you know, it's, it's always age appropriate. So how I talk to my 3 year old is going to be different than how you talk to your 7 year old. But there is a. Dave loves to say this. He's, he goes, well, I'm rich, you're not. Let me make that very clear. And so there, there is a level of the kids don't have access to this money unless you cause them to be entitled and go, you can get anything you want anytime, no questions asked. That's a recipe for disaster as a parent. But what you can say is, hey, at the store, that's not a priority for us right now. We have toys at home and so Anytime the kid has an opportunity to spend, it's a good opportunity to remind them where money comes from, which is from work. Money is earned. It is not just growing on the money tree and that they can actually participate in that. So mom. And you can watch mom and dad spend at the grocery store. And if you can do it with cash, that's even better as an exercise because the problem is now with Apple Pay and cards, you're literally tapping. You're just nearby it. And then you magically get your stuff and go home. Well, the kid never understands what just happened. They just go, well, you have a magic wand that you wave and then you take the stuff and go. But back in the day, you had to hand over all of this money that you worked so hard for, and you got to see that. So I think that's a harder thing to teach because we've gotten to such a sort of touchless digital society. But what you can do is show them that, hey, there's things you do in this house because you are part of this family. You clean your room, you brush your teeth. I'm not going to pay you a commission for that, but there might be commissionable chores that you also have. And we have an awesome product called Financial Peace Junior that kind of lays us all out with a chore board and they can keep track of it. And the other part of this is teach them that there's only three things you can do with money. Give, save, spend. And then teach them early on the joy of giving, not the obligation of giving. Because if you go, hey, we have to give 10%, you go, hey, we get to give 10%. We get to write a check to the church today. And they're going to do that. Look at this mission trip they're going on. See those kids up there on the screen? They need our help. Now the kid is participating in this. Instead of just seeing money as this kind of amoral tool, they see what it can do, they see how it can bring enjoyment, they see how it can grow. And there's the old marshmallow test, where they give a kid one marshmallow and say if you wait 20 minutes, you can have two. And it's a great practice in delayed gratification.
- [28:51]
A
Yeah.
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B
Which for a child and most adults is the hardest thing to learn is just patience. Not now. When we have the money, we will do xyz. And if you can just start teaching your kids those simple things at an age appropriate level, they're going to be just fine. They're not Going to grow up to be spoiled, entitled brats. And the more you talk about it, the better off they're going to be versus not talking about it. Because where are they going to learn it? Social media.
- [29:15]
A
Yeah.
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B
Society, culture. That's not where you want your kids learning about the most important things in life.
- [29:21]
A
Yeah. There was one time, one moment where I realized the mistake that I had just made and not teaching one of my kids delayed gratification, because to your point, now that's something we have to intentionally seek after because we could do away with almost all delayed gratification if we wanted to. Everything is so instant. And the time I did not teach her very well about this is, you know, how on the back of the book there are the different books that correlate with that book, either in that series or other golden books. Yeah. She's like, I want that one. And I remember pulling out my phone, pulling out Amazon and buying it, and it was there the next day. I'm not saying that there was something malicious or terrible about that, but I just remember in that moment, she probably doesn't even remember. I think she was three years old. Just remember thinking, wow, I. If I continue on that, like, if that's all we did to teach our kids about, oh, you want something? I can just click a button and it's here tomorrow. They have no understanding at all that there are people who have to work on that. Like, there's a process. There's money to be spent. It's not just a button to be pressed. And so you. Yeah, my husband and I have really tried to, like, think of ways that, okay, how do we delay this gratification? Even if it's not a big deal to buy that $4 book, it doesn't hurt us. It's not about the dollar amount. Yes. It's about the mentality that it fosters. And you really don't want your kids to have that lazy perspective on life. Whether you are very wealthy and you're going to pass down that wealth or whether you're struggling financially, it just doesn't set them up for success.
- [31:01]
B
Yeah. That is so true. And it's a good reminder that more is caught than taught. The way they see you live your life is how they're actually going to behave and follow, not just what you say. And so for, you know, for my family, when it comes to late gratification, my daughter wants a lot of things at, you know, three years old and she sees the back of that, or we go to Costco or Sam's club. And she's like, bluey bounce house. I want it. I'm like, you know what, maybe we'll put that in the budget and we're going to come back and get it. And so as they get older, you can actually show your kids the line item in the budget of how we're saving for this thing. And you can do some basic math as they get older. Go, hey, this thing is $200. We're going to save up $50 each month. In four months, mark it on the calendar, we're going to have enough money to buy that thing, let them participate in it, even if it's not their own money or own commission chores. It's hard for a five year old to save up $200. So you get to decide what makes sense for your family, where you are financially. You know, is grandma gonna buy that for the birthday? Great. You know, but there's also a level of other people spoiling your kids has a ramification.
- [32:05]
A
Yeah.
- [32:05]
B
Because now you're the, you're the bad guy. You're the one holding us back. Grandma and Uncle Jimmy, they're happy to buy whatever I want, anytime I want it, I'll just go to them. And so you want to have the conversation with family too, if that's happening, to say, hey, we're trying to teach our kids this. I appreciate that you love them so much you want to spoil them. But we're trying to make sure she understands that just because you say I want it doesn't mean it's going to arrive at the door the next day.
- [32:30]
A
Yeah, it's funny how grandparents become different than they were when they raised us.
- [32:36]
B
Where was this person when I was a kid?
- [32:38]
A
I know, it's so, it's so funny. My dad especially. I remember growing up like my parents worked very hard. I'm the youngest, so by the time I came around, they weren't living in the double wide anymore. Comfortable upbringing and all of that. But there were things, you know, you were talking earlier about how you invest money in certain things, like a beautiful home, things like that. And my parents were the same way. But the little things, the little designer things that other people maybe had that I went to school with. My parents were very, my mom was very hesitant about, you don't need that. Maybe for Christmas. It was never an instant thing just because other people had it. And I was always so confused by that because I'm like, we can afford that. I know that, you know, this person over here has that. I know that we can afford that, why can't I have the sketchers? Why can't I have the phone right away? But they were teaching me. They were teaching me something not only about delayed gratification, but also about comparison. Just because someone else has something doesn't mean you deserve it, doesn't mean you're entitled to it. And it's not the most important thing for you to have the latest and greatest. Not that I had to suffer through not having anything, but, yeah, it was a good. It was a good mentality that they gave me growing up. Now, when it comes to their granddaughters, they're like, what? Come on.
- [33:51]
B
Just. Just, you can't take it with you.
- [33:53]
A
Come on. She just needs this right now. And it's so funny, you know, how that shifts. But that's kind of part of their
- [33:59]
B
role, that keeping up with the Joneses is real. Because when everyone around you has it, or like every kid in the neighborhood has this motorized bike, and your kid now wants that motorized bike, you have to have that value in the family saying, no, we're not doing it. And here's the reason why. I think a lot of kids just hear no, and there's not really any thought behind it. It's just the parent says, nope, shut it down. But if you explain why, time and time again, they understand. And over time, even if they don't appreciate it now, one day they're going to look back and go, I'm thankful for that level of discipline. I'm thankful that we weren't just doing things without a care in the world, because I don't want my daughter to have that motorized bike, because I see how fast those things go, and I know how many ER visits happen a year on those. So I'm like, so. And I'm like, the anxious dad. My wife's like, just relax. She'll be fine. Yeah, but there's still a level of, you're the parent. It's your job to be responsible for them, take care of them. And part of that is the financial aspect of raising them right when it comes to money. And too many. Too many parents have shame around it. They go, well, who am I to tell my kids about money? I've made so many mistakes. And you need to release that and go, it's time to change your family tree. That means having the conversations you wish your parents had with you.
- [35:12]
A
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- [37:08]
B
Well, I think looking at your bank account will tell me a lot about what you value. And so if I look at your bank account and I see a whole lot of doordash and a whole lot of ubereats, what that tells me is, well, you don't care that much about this other thing because every dollar you spend is making two choices. You're voting for one thing, which means you're not voting for these other things. And that's okay. But you have to understand that the trade offs the opportunity costs that exist when it comes to money. And it's hard to see it in the day to day. When you spend $10, it doesn't seem like that much money. But then you go, well, that was $300 this month. That's 3,600 a year. Yeah, that's 7,200 in two years. Just cutting out that. If you can just learn to live off $10 less than you did yesterday and do that consistently, you will have $7,000 in two years. If you do nothing else but put it under your bed. That's crazy to think about. Now, for a lot of people that go, well, that's not enough to buy a house, so therefore I'm not going to save anything. Well, now we've shifted to this other side of a spectrum where I don't know if I can help you if your mindset is, you know, just financial nihilism. And that's why people are turning to these riskier things like sports betting and poly market and call sheet. They are so over this, like, retirement angle. And one day I'm going to own a home and work hard, and 40 years later they're going, I'm gonna put all on black and hope that I strike it rich. And that's the part that really scares me, is that level of cynicism is going to cause people to stay in that cycle and make it worse. And I love Proverbs 13:11. Wealth gained hastily will dwindle. Whoever gathers, little by little will increase it. And so it really is death by a thousand cuts. And that's not fun to have that kind of discipline. You see this in Romans. No, discipline seems pleasant at the time, but, you know, after it yields a harvest of righteousness. And so that's the kind of mentality that I think we're missing with the younger generations. They're really sharp. They are super smart. They can figure it out. They can have a YouTube channel spun up and have it monetized by the end of the week. The boomers barely know their YouTube login by that point. And so there's a lot of things that are to their advantage, but what they need to realize is that no one's coming to save them. It's up to them. And they have more power than they think to make that change. So if they're making minimum wage, nobody's forcing you to make minimum wage. There's some people who that's where they're at. And I try to break them out of that and help them find work in a career that's meaningful, that can pay you well. Those jobs exist. Once you see people making like a million dollars, you're like, oh, money is like. It is kind of like a game of Monopoly. There's just. It's almost like fake. When you see how much wealth exists and you go, well, that's not for me.
- [39:47]
A
Hmm.
- [39:48]
B
People think that wealth is predestined and predetermined, like a WWE match or genetics, and it's not. I didn't grow up wealthy. I'm creating that for myself. I'm creating the privilege that I wish I had. And I think that privilege has gotten a really kind of bad taste in people's mouth because they think entitled brats, trust funds. And I'm going, no, we all want a better life for our kids. That's privilege. If you do that successfully, you have created, quote, unquote, privilege. And so I think that's. That's, if you think, a bigger picture than just tomorrow. And I'm too lazy to cook. Whatever it is. If you can think, five years from now, where do I want to be? I'd love to be a homeowner. Great. Let's craft a goal that gets us there. Instead of five years from now, we're just five years older and just as miserable.
- [40:34]
A
So you still think it is possible with inflation, the financial situation, economic situation, how it is in America for a young person to still be able to. Who comes from nothing, say they've got college debt, they are in a minimum wage job, but they have some kind of ambition for more. They don't know what it is, but they do want to be financially free. It's possible for that person to pull themselves up by the bootstraps, work hard and reach their financial goals.
- [41:00]
B
There's a level of, you know, I know the pull themselves up by the bootstraps has become the boomerism that everyone hates, which is, well, you just need to try harder. And I think this generation is going, dude, I'm already working hard. Yeah, well, what's crazy is we get calls in the Ramsey show and someone calls in at 68 and they go, well, I worked hard my whole life. I got nothing to show for it. Working hard isn't enough. And at work ethic is good. You need that. But simply just going to a job 40 hours a week does not guarantee you a great life. And that is unfortunate. We can all grieve that, that it's a sad state of reality, that we all can go to work 40, 50 hours a week, have nothing to show for it, and still not be able to have everything we want. So therefore, now I go, okay, what is the thing you want? What would it actually take for you to get there? What kind of job would it require for you to have that level of income? And now what steps can we take to build toward that? I'm too logical for my own good. That's how it actually works in reality. But most people are going, yeah, but what I want to do, I can't make money. There are people streaming on Twitch, making 10 times what I make, playing video games, talking to an audience, watching at home.
- [42:13]
A
Don't do that. I'm. That's my person. That's my person.
- [42:16]
B
That's my personal opinion.
- [42:18]
A
My personal opinion is to don't go that.
- [42:20]
B
Yeah, I don't want to encourage that. But to act like it's too hard to make money. I think there, there's a level of people who just go, I'm entrepreneurial, I'm gonna figure it out. And people who go, I'm gonna wait for something to be handed to me. And I think there's gen zers who are thriving, there's millennials who are thriving, there's ones who are struggling with, but the loudest ones are going to be the ones struggling. And so that's what you usually see on social media. Therefore you feel like this is all around us. But we have people on our debt free stage who go, oh, we paid off our house at 28.
- [42:50]
A
Yeah.
- [42:51]
B
Because we started doing this stuff early. We got out of debt, we stayed out of debt. We live very simply. And so there's trade offs to be made on all sides. There's sacrifices to be made. And you can't have the cake and eat it too.
- [43:02]
A
Yeah, yeah. On X it's like everyone's poor. And then on Instagram it's like everyone's rich.
- [43:08]
B
That's so true.
- [43:09]
A
It's. Yeah, I was just thinking about that as you were talking and I think about, you know, not knocking influencers. Like a lot of these people are very entrepreneurial. They're just sharing their life and what they do and they're able to monetize that. But there definitely is a level of, you know, probably over consumption and materialism that can come with that world certainly can foster comparison and also an idea in the minds of a lot of give people that, wow, that five million dollar house that they have is totally attainable for me too right now. Or I deserve that, I want that right now. And it also just kind of makes you think if you're on Instagram, well, everyone's Rich, like everyone has so much stuff and the latest Escalade and all of that. I wonder what you think would surprise the average person about how Americans, not just influencers, but anyone that may appear wealthy and you're like, how is that even possible that everyone has this amount of money? Like, what would surprise us about how people actually spent their money?
- [44:16]
B
Well, we did the largest study of millionaires ever done in North America, over 10,000 of them. And what was shocking to me was they are the everyday guy or gal next door who you would never assume has a lot of money. So what I find is there's really three camps. When you look next to your car at the red light and you're, wow, that person must have money. And you know, the easiest assumption is to go, they didn't earn that, or they have a lot of money from a trust fund, whatever it may be. But there's three camps. Either they are broken in debt and they're highly leveraged and they have a giant payment on that thing and that is nothing to envy.
- [44:51]
A
And what's highly leveraged, that means they
- [44:53]
B
are in crippling debt. They are paycheck to paycheck. Even though they make $300,000, they're still paycheck to paycheck. They have nothing in savings. That scares me. And I go, great, now I don't have to be jealous of that guy. I wouldn't want to trade lives with him to have that car. Now the other side is maybe they were super intentional and they saved up and paid cash for that thing and that meant a lot to them for whatever reason. Great, now I can celebrate that. And the other part is the middle, which is, oh, they didn't work hard for that at all. Mommy and daddy bought them that. And now I can be a little bit jealous and go, well, okay, either I don't agree with that, I would not want to give my kids all this money to buy fancy cars, or I want to create this level of privilege to where I can buy my child a nice car. But now you see, you can look at it from any angle. Whatever you're looking for, you will find if you're looking to be angry and envious and compare your life away, you can find that on every corner of the Internet. And if you look for a community of people who are intentional, who actually live pretty simply, who are millionaires, who drive Honda Accords, you will find that too. And so it really depends on what you're looking for. And it is a self fulfilling prophecy either way.
- [46:04]
A
What are Say, the three commonalities that you find as you talk to people every day who are financially struggling.
- [46:13]
B
The three commonalities with people who are struggling is, number one, they don't know better. So there is a legitimate knowledge gap. Financial literacy is a huge problem in America. We're trying our best. We have a high school curriculum that's now been in almost half of high schools in America. So there is a problem. We need sort of the. There's the emergency surgery, which is Dave on the Ramsey show yelling at them to sell the Tahoe. And there's preventative maintenance, which is, let's get these kids educated so that they know the dangers of student loans, why they don't need a car payment, how to save up and pay cash for that car. And so there's one piece that's knowledge. The other piece is behavioral. They can't get out of the cycle because they're in their own way. And that takes a different level. You can't just Google that. That takes a I've had it moment is what we call it. You need to be so frustrated with yourself, with the person in the mirror, that you're willing to make sacrificial changes. So on the Ramsey show, it's a good test to say, hey, are you willing to sell that bike? I had this call the other day. Real guy unwilling to sell his motorcycle so that he could get married and buy a house. They've been living together for eight years. And he goes, well, my. My fiance, I don't even know what he calls her, doesn't want me to sell the bike either. She loves it, too. Okay, that's fine. But you just told me that you have this goal of buying a house and you won't get married until you're out of debt. And I'm showing you a path to sell the bike, get at it at so much faster so that you can have this life on the other side. And so all I needed to show him was your behavior is what's standing in the way, not any external forces. We could solve our problems like that. For a lot of people, some people, it's systemic. There's a lot more there. It's going to take years and years for a lot of people. I could change in one session. With one hour, I could totally flip your finances. The problem is, are you willing to live that life? Are you willing to go without? So that's the second piece. There's the knowledge, there's the behavior, and the last piece is just the commitment. And this is that Patience, that delayed gratification muscle that I don't need it right now, I can wait to have the thing. And so if you can combine all those things, the commitment, the behavior and the knowledge, you can become debt free and build so much wealth and have this great life on the other side. But most people would rather live in mediocrity for 30 to 40 years than sacrifice for two, which is what it takes for people to get out of debt. Following the Ramsey plan, 18 to 24 months, you're completely consumer debt free. And most people go, yeah, that looks hard. I'd rather live my hard life for the next 40 years instead. Yeah, so you get to decide. And so that's what we try to help people do on the Ramsey show, is use those three levers to kind of gauge where they're at and in five minutes try to give them hope to take the right next step. So that's the task that we have at hand.
- [48:59]
A
Have you ever had someone get really angry at you for telling them something like that? Like, hey, it's actually this choice that you're refusing to make that is the impediment.
- [49:09]
B
Oh boy. I mean, things have gotten very combative. One of my most famous calls, I would say infamous more than famous, is when I told a girl to sell her horse. Now that wasn't the worst part. I then ended it with, the horse doesn't even know your name. Which that was the cruel part I wish I could take back, but unfortunately everything we say is on the Internet forever. But here's what frustrated me. She was $130,000 in debt and she worked for the a rural area of Kentucky for the USDA making $40,000. And so I know how math works. And I went without any sacrifices. She's going to be in debt for decades based on her income. That is immovable. Because she said, oh, I live in a rural part of Kentucky and then I find out the horse is worth $22,000. It's like a prize winning horse and she could get out of a lot of these debts, free up some margin and then get the next one, get her head above water. And so she said, when I said, hey, Katie. And I was very kind. I said, katie, I know this would be difficult, but could you sell the horse? And she immediately went into, now that I've had the horse for 11 years and it knows my soul. And then we're up against the radio break. So I just had to end it. And I said, katie, the horse doesn't even know your name. And then Rachel Cruz, the co host, just looked at me like gaffawd. Like, no, you didn't. And so that is the time I got angry because the collar was combative, because I realized it was. My anger was for her. I'm so angry that. That she's not going to be able to help herself get out of this debt.
- [50:37]
A
Yeah.
- [50:37]
B
And so later on we communicated. We're friends now. It's all good. She's still climbing out of the debt, but she's doing better. She's made progress. She did not sell the horse.
- [50:46]
A
Yeah. Okay. Well, you know, what you said, though, is true. I understand that there's truth in love and there are ways that we can, we can see say it. However, what she said was true. And I do wonder how much these refusal to make choices, whether it's selling a horse or selling a motorcycle or whatever, is really not even just about. I don't see what you see financially or I don't think that's a smart choice, but of the emotions and identity and the purpose that sometimes we have wrapped around things. Yes. Or animals or whatever it is. Like it might be something in your childhood that your dad always wanted. Boat. And so you felt like you were making him proud by buying this boat. And if you let go of that, are you disappointing your dad that, like, you guys know there's so many different levels.
- [51:36]
B
Go to med school because my parents always wanted me to and I hate it. And also I'm in $400,000 in debt. This is the reality when. When you try to live someone else's life and you're running someone else's race, it's exhausting. Or you need. You tie your identity to stuff, to treasures on earth. And so if this was a church sermon and I was the pastor, I would end it with, what is your horse? What do you need to let go of in order to get something so much greater? What are the treasures on earth you need to lay down to have these treasures in heaven? And it sounds like not to over spiritualize it, but there is a level of what is this all for? These, you know, if you're lucky, 70, 80, 90 years on Earth, what is it for? Is it for hoarding and putting your identity into stuff and cars, whatever it is, or is it for kingdom impact, raising up a family, them, then carrying that on generationally, the character, the faith. Can you pass that down first before you pass down a single dollar? I think that is far more important if I leave my kids nothing. But they're amazing people who have faith. I have done the Lord's work. And if I can add some money to that to help them and have generational wealth, that's even better.
- [52:50]
A
But what if someone says, george, I, I need to have this fifty thousand dollar wedding. This is one day of my life. And you know, my fiance and I, we're gonna, whatever we have to do, whatever debt we have to get in, it's temporary, it's worth this. It's, it is worth something as important as that. You could see someone's mentality of like, we're going to spend whatever we need to for the wedding. How do you grapple with that? If you're talking with someone, maybe not on the show, maybe your friend, if someone's going to take the wisdom that you're about to give them home and talking to people in their life, how would you approach something so sensitive like that?
- [53:27]
B
Well, if I can curb my own irritability and move past that and be patient, I can then dig in. I think digging in with questions is always the best way to get to the root of the thing. So why do you need to spend $50,000? Where is this coming from? Well, this is the budget because I want xyz. Okay, where is that coming from? Well, my mom really wanted to have 28 more people at the wedding and she wanted this. Okay, now there's someone else's opinion involved. And I go, well, is your mom paying for it? Because if she wants to invite 50 extra people, I think she should be footing the bill. That's just one man's opinion. And then I go, if you had a $20,000 wedding, would that make your marriage worse? Well, no. Okay, now we're getting somewhere. So the wedding has no direct impact on the quality of your marriage. And the wedding is supposed to be a symbol of you starting this marriage. So now I can tie it to something bigger with a better motive to get them to sort of realize on their own, like a good teacher would in school, when they didn't give you the answer, they helped you come to the realization where you went, oh, you're right. This really wasn't about having an awesome wedding because I care. It's about what other people will think. And my parents reputation is at stake. And I just always had it in my head that I was going to have this kind of wedding even though we don't have the money and we're going to be $30,000 in debt. And I found out what your real goal is, to own a home. So now I go. So you could have had a down payment, but instead you threw a seven hour party for other people who may or may not care about you that much. And now you go, oh, you're right. When I think about it that way, I could do a $20,000 wedding. We can make that work. And now we go about the logistics of cutting the budget, you know, invite list, whatever it may be. But I think that's the best way to approach someone who is in the justification mode.
- [55:19]
A
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- [56:46]
B
I'll tell you what she doesn't do. Because this happens more often than not. And then that'll reveal the part that it's smarter. The thing that most people do is become combative. They wait until it is bubbled up to the point of resentment and anger and then they unleash it as soon as he walks through the door. Well, now he's on the defense and now he's got to play. Now it's ping pong. Now we got to go back and forth until someone wins the game, in which case nobody has won the game. If this is marriage so instead, what to do is share your fears, share your doubts, share your visions, share your hopes. And if you do that in a calm way at the right time, maybe once the kids are down, then you say, hey, we, we got to talk about something or even let them know ahead of time, hey, after the kids go down, I wanted to bring up something or, you know, bring some, run something by you. Great, now we know what's coming up. We have the conversation. We go, hey, listen, I'm kind of scared for our family's finances. Like, I feel like we do pretty well. We have a great income and we have nothing in savings. We don't have much in retirement. We're in all this debt and we're not making any progress. And now the husband is a team, is a teammate. Now we can both solve this problem together. We're looking forward instead of. We're aiming at each other. And I think if you do that now, you need a somewhat healthy husband on the other side of this who actually cares about your feelings and respects you. That is what causes people to actually change and go, you know what? I'm going to do this. I'm willing to make the sacrifices needed. But a lot of the times you need that person to have empathy, to actually care about your feelings, to respect what you're wanting for the future. But I think most people just haven't sat down to create a vision for their future. They're just going through the motions. Life is already crazy. They're thinking about this weekend, not next year. And so I think if you can just sit down and have a little come to Jesus moment, lay out a game plan for, hey, what do we want this next year to look like? Two years. What would it actually take for us to get out of debt? Now we can get into the logistics and he can become like, he can go into problem solver mode, which is usually what husbands want to do when you share anything with them, they're like, well, here's the solution. And you're like, no, I just wanted to vent, man. Well, now you're coming to them with a problem that actually requires a solution, and he's stepping into it as a co teammate versus, hey, this is about me and my spending. And you don't like the way I live my life. And I work so hard for this family. We hear all the calls, and the best marriages are the ones that realize, you know what? It's not all about me. I married you because I wanted a teammate in this life. I wanted this life to be better. Not worse. And therefore, let's come up with a game plan.
- [59:24]
A
I'm sure you've had those situations too, where one spouse, husband or wife is in it and the other one's just not. What do they do in that situation? If they're like, I don't know, maybe it's not the most healthy circumstance, and they're like, I'm just going to have to save on my own. How do they go about that?
- [59:44]
B
Well, there's a lot of times where we don't hand them in every dollar, budget or financial peace University. We tell them, hey, you need to go to your church, sit down with a pastor. You need to have a third party counselor, look at the situation objectively because you guys are just missing each other. And so we need to realign with that third party to go, here's what's actually happening on one side, here's what's actually happening on the other side. And then you can get to that empathy part. But sometimes you do need a third party to step in. And, you know, the, the worst, worst case scenario is we see marriages fall apart because the person is unwilling. They've basically, they're opting out of the marriage by deciding, I don't actually want to do life with you. I don't actually care about any of this. And at that point, there's not much we can do. We would never advise someone to straight up go get divorced on the show unless there's very clear, like, there is physical abuse and they are unsafe. Then we say, you need to get out of that house today and go stay with family. But in most cases, we go, this is a decision you need to make. I can tell you're resentful. I can tell you're angry. I don't know what the future of this marriage is. But if there's any hope, here's what to do. That's the best thing we can do in seven minutes on a. On a radio call.
- [60:51]
A
Yeah. And that's part of what I love about what y' all do, is that you'll see how everything is inextricably intertwined. It's not just about finances. It's not just about penny pinching and saving money. It's about marriage. It's about relationships. It's about your life. There's also a happiness aspect, and there's certainly a faithfulness to God aspect, too. And I think that's what a lot of people are missing. If they go to your standard financial advisor. You guys really look at the whole person.
- [61:18]
B
Yes.
- [61:18]
A
And Care about the things that God cares about, too.
- [61:21]
B
And I do love, you know, when. When someone of faith calls in, it helps because now there's a. There's a context. There's an underpinning here. And when someone doesn't have that underpinning, well, now they're just. They're sort of just flailing. And I don't know how to help them because. Not because I disagree with their choices, which may be true, but I can't get them to the next step until they're. They have this. This mindset that it is bigger than them. And that's what I love about having that underpinning of faith. You realize I am a steward. I imagine this for someone else. Here is the context of a healthy marriage. Now we have sort of a guide. And when you don't have that, it's all just worldly, cultural. Well, I just want to do what I'm going to do. In which case it's much harder to give you the right next step and be convinced you're going to do it.
- [62:06]
A
Yeah. Okay. Let's end on this biggest myth about finances and your response to it.
- [62:14]
B
The biggest myth in finances that I've been seeing lately is that some people are just destined to make it to destined to have money. They're a math person. And then the other people go, well, I'm not a math person. I'm not good with money. Well, not being good with money is not a personality trait. That's an excuse. And so the people that make it versus the people that don't decide, I may not be good with money today, but I can get better. And it's just like someone coming to faith. The first day you're a new believer, you're not like, great at it. You know what I mean? Like, you don't have the spiritual maturity. And the same goes with finances. You build up that financial maturity. The first time you do a budget, it is a nightmare. The second month you do it, it's a little better. By the third month, you kind of get your training wheels off and go, okay, I got this. I know how to ride the bike now. I understand where my money's going. I understand how to get control of it, how to put it away in savings, how to automate it. And so know that wherever you are today doesn't have to be where you end up. But you can't just give up and go, woe is me. I'm not good with money. Hopefully a white knight will come along and save me. And you know I'll marry rich. That's the one I hear a lot. And I go, I wish you the best. I've rarely seen that go well for someone whose singular goal is to marry rich. Because even if you get the money, you'll have a miserable life. And so you need to be well rounded. And part of that is the faith underpinning. Part of it is realizing what your values are, what your goals are, what your motives are. And if you can get healthy and all of that and get really clear, everything else will just wash away. You will stay laser focused on what you are here to do.
- [63:50]
A
Hmm. You're convicting me, George. Because, you see, I'm not a math person. I'm not an expert in finances. My husband is great at all of that, and he handles all of that, and I'm very, very thankful. But are you telling me even though my husband is so good at managing all of that, that I also need to understand it and be involved? Is that what you're telling me?
- [64:11]
B
Yes. And it doesn't need to be you. Like, you need to set up your own spreadsheet.
- [64:16]
A
No.
- [64:16]
B
Yeah, but you guys both need to be on the same page. And I know you want on the same page, values wise, but you may not know, like, what's in the retirement accounts. Like, how is this do. I don't even have the login to the bank. And so my wife and I, here's what I did. This is the most loving, romantic thing I've done in a while. I created a legacy guide. And it was a. Hey, if something were to happen to me, God forbid, Here is every account. Here's every person you need to contact. Here's the balances. Here's the policy number for their term life insurance. Here's the face value. And I helped her understand where everything's going now. Once in a while, she'll go, hey, what's in savings? And I go, you can check the app. And she goes, oh, okay, cool. So usually it's not that they want to be so intricately involved, but to also be in the dark is dangerous.
- [65:03]
A
Yeah.
- [65:03]
B
So as long as you guys are hitting your goals that you've set as a family, you know what's going on in general. You don't need to be checking retirement accounts every day.
- [65:11]
A
Right?
- [65:11]
B
That's not what I'm saying. But too many people go, well, I think he's got it.
- [65:16]
A
Yeah.
- [65:16]
B
And sadly, what happens is financial infidelity. And sometimes it's not malicious. It's not like cheating. It's Just a You guys sort of separate. And mentally, he's over here going, well, I'm carrying all the mental load. I didn't think you cared. And now you find out he's in credit card debt and didn't want to tell you because he didn't want to bother you with it. And so that's like the lightest version. And then the heaviest version is secret debts and pulling the credit reports and finding out there's a gambling addiction. And so it's not to say that's what it always leads to, but the more transparent, the more accountable, the more you bring it all into the light, the better your marriage is going to be and the more wealth you will create.
- [65:54]
A
It's like that Nate Bergazzi bet, have you seen it? Where he talks about how his wife handles all the finances and she's like. And he's like, if she dies, I'm gonna have to call her mom and be like, has she ever mentioned a bank to you? I'm like, you're saying that's. You're saying that's not good. A husband unhealthy.
- [66:12]
B
It's hilarious. I love his. His bits.
- [66:15]
A
Yeah.
- [66:16]
B
But there is a level of the other part of it that no one talks about is the other spouse wants you to be involved. Not in a way where you're, like, meddling, but in a way where you're sharing some of the mental load, you're sharing some of the vision and the goals. That's what makes a rich marriage. Not just me trying to pay off the mortgage by myself. It's my wife and I sharing in the wins, sharing in the struggles, so that when we get there, it's so much richer.
- [66:41]
A
Yeah. Amen. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for sharing all of this wisdom. I really appreciate it. Everyone needs to follow you, your podcast, all the good resources that you put out. Thank you so much, George.
- [66:51]
B
Thank you. It's been fun, Sam.