GGCH: Nolan’s Odyssey & Tony’s New Novel (#412)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Religion on the Mind Episode #412: GGCH: Nolan’s Odyssey & Tony’s New Novel Date: August 10, 2026 Host: Dan Koch | Guests: Tony Jones & Josh Gilbert

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Overview

This episode of Religion on the Mind merges literary banter with weighty cultural commentary, as Dan Koch leads Tony Jones and Josh Gilbert through a lively "Generation Gap Culture Hour" installment. The focus is twofold: a deep dive into Christopher Nolan’s much-talked-about film adaptation of The Odyssey, and a discussion of Tony's recently published historical novel, Son of Helena. The trio blend humor, personal anecdotes, and serious analysis, connecting classic literature, modern storytelling, and psychology with their characteristic irreverence and warmth.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Alliteration and Bios (01:08–07:25)

• The episode kicks off with playful debate about grammar and the overuse of alliteration, referencing an unnamed Instagram bio featuring nine consecutive words starting with "C."
• Quote:
  • "I think this is a Guinness Book of world records. Nine straight Cs in an Instagram or Twitter bio. Have you ever seen anything like this before?" — Dan Coates (04:48)
• Tony critiques the difference between true literary alliteration in prose versus formulaic use in bios or sermons.

2. Tony's New Novel: Son of Helena (07:46–12:47)

• Dan shares his satisfaction with Tony’s novel after reading the sample online, classifying it as "elevated genre fiction" or "upmarket" rather than "pulp."
• Comparisons are made to other classic genre writers, particularly referencing Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry as unexpectedly gripping "dude lit."
• The group jokes about reading the book's sex scenes aloud and discusses the distinguished British narration chosen for the upcoming audiobook.
• Quote:
  • "In prose, like in a 300 page book, to try to do [alliteration] artfully ... I think it's gimmicky to do it in your bio." — Tony Jones (06:46)
  • "I'd never read [Lonesome Dove]... Every time I wasn't reading it, it was just unbelievable. It is in my top five novels of all time." — Tony Jones (09:48)

3. Moviegoing Experience with Nolan’s Odyssey (12:53–23:00)

• The discussion shifts to Christopher Nolan’s The Odyssey — regarded as "the number one monocultural event of this year thus far" (13:02).
• Josh recounts seeing the film on a date night, enjoying the crowd and immersive (if not IMAX) setting, and appreciating the practical effects and emotional impact.
• Tony relays his passion for the classics (having translated The Odyssey in college) and describes eccentric theater experiences (popcorn napkin OCD, Apple Watch step-tracking).
  • Quote: "The guy to my left is trying to convince his apple watch that he's getting his steps in during the movie." — Tony Jones (19:53)
• Dan praises the film for lingering in thought for days after viewing, identifying that as the hallmark of great cinema.

4. Violence & Morality in Ancient Epics (23:00–32:03)

• The group digresses into deeper analysis, tying the film’s depiction of Troy's sacking to themes of religious violence and ancient worldviews.
• Dan draws parallels between The Odyssey's carnage and biblical violence in Joshua and Judges — specifically, the Canaanite conquest — proposing that Christian traditions sanitize such stories.
  • Quote:
    • "If we had video of what the Book of Joshua describes happening, it would look like Israelite soldiers stabbing pregnant women through the belly ... and slaughtering women and children in the streets." — Dan Coates (25:46)
• Tony underscores the brutality of the ancient world, noting Nolan’s story changes are tailored for modern Western audiences who cannot relate to older mores.
  • Quote:
    • "Modern people who have not immersed themselves in the ancient world don't understand how brutal it was ... That was the way of the world." — Tony Jones (28:00)
• Discussion reveals that Nolan’s film, while visually epic, reimagines Odysseus’ motivation (from irrepressible trickster to PTSD-stricken antihero) and Christianizes ancient moral codes (e.g., transforming Xenia — the Greek code of hospitality — into the Golden Rule).
  • Quote:
    • "He did fundamentally change the story and I think he changed it for modern western tastes." — Tony Jones (31:04)
    • "It's the Christianization of the Odyssey." — Tony Jones (31:39)
• The group laments the total omission of the gods as active characters, which are ever-present in the original epics.
  • Quote:
    • "The gods are everywhere in the Odyssey and the Iliad — he left them out. They are characters." — Tony Jones (34:47)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Alliteration:
  • "You never go, Josh and I's best time to record is ... the word I never takes a possessive apostrophe S." — Tony Jones (01:08)
• On Moviegoing Annoyances:
  • "He would eat one piece of popcorn, and then he would take one of those crinkly little movie theater napkins and I shit you not, he would wipe each of his ten fingers." — Tony Jones (18:46)
  • "The guy to my left... he's trying to convince his Apple Watch that he's getting his steps in during the movie." — Tony Jones (19:53)
  • "This is a world gone mad." — Tony Jones (20:56)
• Connecting Ancient and Modern Worldviews:
  • "These were 400 year old stories ... that got turned into these two poems, the Iliad and the Odyssey." — Tony Jones (29:54)
  • "Nolan retranslates the law of Zeus into the golden rule. That is not what's happening." — Tony Jones (31:37)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:08: Grammar banter and alliteration critique
• 07:46: Tony’s new novel & literary comparisons
• 12:53: Begin discussion on Nolan’s Odyssey film
• 18:46: Tony’s movie theater story (popcorn/napping/Apple Watch)
• 23:00: Dan draws parallel between Troy’s sacking and biblical violence
• 28:00: Tony explains the brutality of the ancient world and Nolan’s adaptation
• 31:04: Analysis: Motivations and “Christianization” of the story
• 34:47: Omission of the gods in the film, contrast with epic tradition

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Tone & Language

The episode is marked by relaxed, irreverent, occasionally profane banter. Tony, Dan, and Josh each blend intellectual rigor with punchy humor—a dynamic best encapsulated by their mock-serious debates over book sex scenes and movie theater annoyances. While their language is accessible and occasionally self-deprecating, their insights remain thought-provoking, especially at the intersections of psychology, religion, and myth.

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For Listeners

Whether you’re interested in Tony's new book, the deep roots of epic storytelling, or the complications of adapting ancient myths for modern audiences, this episode offers sharp analysis, plenty of laughter, and a dose of cultural criticism—all without shying away from the tough questions posed by history and art.

To hear the extended discussion (including further thoughts on the Odyssey and more banter), subscribe to Dan's Patreon.

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Transcript

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

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[Tony Jones]

They say, Tony and me went to the store. And your parents said, tony and I went to the store. When it's used as the subject, it's I. When it's used as the object in a sentence, it is me. Except after the to be verb, when it's officially supposed to be still I. But that really sounds awkward. And you never go. Josh and I's best time to record is you never ever. The word I never takes a possessive

[Dan Coates]

apostrophe S. Okay, so you would. Would you say, join Odysseus and I on a long quest to capture Troy? No.

[Tony Jones]

No. Join Odysseus.

[Dan Coates]

And I would say, join Odysseus and me.

[Tony Jones]

And you would never say myself. And people say myself, join Odysseus and myself as we go to conquer Troy because they're afraid of getting it wrong. And me sounds weird because they got corrected for using me as a subject, but they never got corrected for using me as the object.

[Dan Coates]

Well, they might have.

[Tony Jones]

If it comes. If it comes after the verb, it is an object, and me is the correct use.

[Dan Coates]

Nothing scarier than going to war. Clouded by grammatical mistakes.

[Tony Jones]

I guarantee you there are no grammatical mistakes in the Odyssey. I mean, not in the original.

[Dan Coates]

Welcome, everybody. I think we left all that in Josh definitely started recording it. Smart. Welcome, everybody back to Religion on the Mind, and in particular, another installment of Generation Gap Culture Hour with myself. With me, Dan Coates. With me, Tony Jones and Josh Gilbert. We typically talk about culture or other things that are a bit further afield than psychology of religion, and we like to have a little bit of fun with that I'm looking forward. We have a lot to talk about today. We're going to definitely talk about the Odyssey. We are going to. I think it will be natural to rope in Tony's new book to that conversation, and it might have some of its own conversation. And Josh has some AI content for us to get into. But I wanted to begin with a little bit of an amuse bouche. And I may have already texted this to you guys, so just pretend like you're hearing this for the first time, like the audience. But I used to think that evangelical teaching pastors were the masters of the universe when it came to alliteration.

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

Right?

[Dan Coates]

We're talking words, you know, repeating a consonant over and over again. The four P's of purity, whatever. You just fill it in right from your memory. But I came across an individual whose name I will not say because I do not want to shame them. They, I think, are. It's a doctor. It looks like maybe a doctorate in psychology, but it could be something else. Anyway, here is this person's bio on Instagram, quote, disrupting the things that disrupt you. Okay, so far, so good with care, by the way, these are all capital Cs. Disrupting the things that disrupt you with care. Creativity, collaboration and congruence, period. Clinician, coach, consultant, communicator, colleague. I think this is a Guinness Book of world records. Nine straight Cs in an Instagram or Twitter bio. Have you. Have you ever seen anything like this before?

[Josh Gilbert]

That's annoying to me.

[Dan Coates]

It's so annoying, it's insane.

[Tony Jones]

That's not even good.

[Dan Coates]

I mean, this person has 8,300 followers. So it's not like just a rando. Just.

[Tony Jones]

Just saying no. That's not even hard to do. I mean, you could just ask AI to be like, here's what I do. Give me five things that start with the letter C. Colleague, how is that a part of your bio? You're a colleague.

[Dan Coates]

I know it might have been AI, but what I'm saying is, I don't. I'm not saying. I'm not saying this is praiseworthy. What I'm saying is, like, I don't think the evangelical mega church teaching pastors who overly rely on alliteration are praiseworthy either. I just think that this is. The sheer commitment to the bit here is unparalleled in my personal experience.

[Tony Jones]

I mean, frankly, alliteration is like. It's not really alliterate. I'd have to look it up, which I'm not going to do. But I don't really think it's alliteration if you have a sermon and all three of your points start with the same letter. Alliteration is like when you're writing a novel and a character is talking and uses three out of five words, like start with the same consonant or something like that. Which, frankly, I got a text message earlier this week from a mutual friend

[Dan Coates]

from your former AP English teacher congratulating

[Tony Jones]

you from Dr. Tripp Fuller, who was reading my novel and complimented my alliteration. And there's quite a bit of alliteration.

[Dan Coates]

I don't want you to find some way that this is some sort of dig at you as a novelist, because I am making fun of this person.

[Tony Jones]

No, no, I'm saying I think it's a lot harder to do it in prose, like in a 300 page book of prose, to try to do it artfully. I think it's gimmicky to do it in your bio.

[Dan Coates]

Yeah. Your point is taken. Getting it into a sentence that needs to communicate the meaning that the sentence needs to communicate is much harder than saying, here's a mnemonic device for remembering the three takeaways. I'm gonna find three words that start with the same letter that are synonyms for each. For, you know, the three items that I need.

[Tony Jones]

Like, you find it in a great poem or something. You're like, oh, that's cool. You know?

[Dan Coates]

Well, I don't think there is a greater poem than With Care, Creativity, collaboration and Congruence. Clinician, coach, consultant, communicator, colleague. I mean, put that on the COVID of Poetry magazine. And just.

[Tony Jones]

You're so funny because you're like, I don't want to tell anybody who this is. Anybody can now just search Instagram and find it.

[Dan Coates]

They'd have to want to do that. I mean, that's not gonna be very many people.

[Tony Jones]

Somebody's gonna do it and put it in the Facebook group, of which I'm no longer a member.

[Dan Coates]

Speaking of taking offense at things, let's just say I wanna say, I do wanna talk more about how this process has been going of releasing the first of your trilogy of historical novels, Son of Helena. I will say before, just as a little, just to let people know. Like, I was looking at the, you know, the Amazon page and you've got a. You have a sample of the first two or three chapters or whatever. And I was reading it and then I found myself 10 minutes later still reading it, and I was like, all right, I guess I'm buying a copy. So my copy is on the way, I'm excited to crack it open in paperback, which is my preferred method of reading.

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

Yeah.

[Dan Coates]

Also we've talked recently about dude lit and this definitely qualifies. It's Roman Empire is as dude as it gets. And you. Actually, I was thinking about the sort of quality of writing. I don't mean like your quality as a writer, but what you were talking about, like elevated genre fiction of like, you can read some of these sort of page turners and you can get the sense that some of these authors, it can't really be true, but it feels like they truly don't give a shit about the writing at all. That like they did not edit their first draft of what all their characters say or whatever like that. And of course there are better versions of that. But the other thing I'm reading right now is Dashiell Hammett, the Maltese Falcon. And that's like that elevated genre. It's a detective story. It's a hard boiled noir detective story. But he's a good writer and I was just enjoying the writing. And I wanted to tell you, I think you. I think you've accurately placed it in that elevated genre.

[Tony Jones]

Upmarket.

[Dan Coates]

Upmarket. There we go. Upmarket genre fiction. I think that's correct. And that is for me, the cutoff. I just can't stick with anything that is below that.

[Tony Jones]

Pulpy.

[Dan Coates]

Pulp.

[Tony Jones]

Pulpy.

[Dan Coates]

I can't do pulp.

[Tony Jones]

I finished over the weekend Lonesome Dove. And I'd never read it. And it is an astounding novel. Cause I was like, how could a western win the Pulitzer? How could a.

[Dan Coates]

Other than Cormac McCarthy or somebody like that?

[Tony Jones]

Well, yeah, but that's literary fiction. This is more like upmarket fiction. I thought, I don't even understand this. And yet I remember my parents watching the miniseries. When I was a kid. I couldn't wait to get back to reading Lonesome Dove. Every time I wasn't reading it, it was just unbelievable. And put it in your. Like, it is in my top five novels of all time that I've ever.

[Dan Coates]

Is that Larry McMurtry or a different author? It is. Okay, I need to get a copy of it. I don't. I don't have a copy of that. I'll add it to my list.

[Tony Jones]

It is stunning.

[Dan Coates]

It's too long for dude lit book club.

[Tony Jones]

I just.

[Dan Coates]

Not because, well, we'd have to do it over.

[Tony Jones]

It's like 850.

[Dan Coates]

Yeah, we'd have to do it over to two meetings or something. Like we're. We're I'm struggling with assigning blood meridian, which is like 350 pages, just because everybody's busy. Josh, we haven't heard from you yet. I will say for listeners, Josh is, like, dadding it to infinity here.

[Tony Jones]

He's got dad maxing.

[Dan Coates]

He's dad maxing. He's got sleepy, sleeping baby Davey, who has an ear infection and a current fever on his chest at his standing desk. He's not even. Tony and I are sitting down like losers, and Josh is standing up, holding his child but not saying anything.

[Josh Gilbert]

There's, like, these. There's like, these hip carriers, so all the weight is on my hips, and I just keep her balanced. It's like.

[Dan Coates]

Well, yeah, but you're still holding that weight with your. With your stout legs.

[Josh Gilbert]

Yeah, this. Thank you. This is my secret to, you know, holding her all day as she needs while she's sick. But my goal to go back to Tony's book. My goal is to get the book and read it until the sex scene, and then as I find the sex scene, just, you know, maybe at night when Emily and I are just about to go to bed, just like, hey, I want to read a section of Tony's book to you, and, like, this

[Dan Coates]

is where I happen to have left off. Yeah, yeah. Really?

[Josh Gilbert]

See if it, you know, gets her going. Like, that's the goal right there.

[Dan Coates]

I was gonna. I thought you were gonna say. And then just switch over to recording a voice memo and read that aloud and just send that only to Tony.

[Josh Gilbert]

That too. I probably should do that.

[Tony Jones]

Well, look, it'll be out in audiobook in a month and.

[Josh Gilbert]

Oh, that's funny.

[Dan Coates]

Oh, so we could listen to you.

[Tony Jones]

No, no.

[Dan Coates]

In our own bedroom.

[Tony Jones]

Not me. Not me.

[Dan Coates]

Okay. No, thanks.

[Tony Jones]

I, I. No, I, I read my. I read my. I've read a couple of my books, including my memoir, but no, this one is. Is being read by a. A very distinguished British voice actor who does a BBC British accent, which is like, kind of what people who are into Roman Empire historical fiction. That's what they want, right?

[Dan Coates]

Well, now I'm a fool. I should have just waited for the audiobook. I want that, bro.

[Tony Jones]

Buy them both. Okay. You'll want to read it again.

[Dan Coates]

Well, okay, I do want to get. I want to get to the Odyssey because it is probably the number one monocultural event of this year thus far. I would say it's probably the.

[Tony Jones]

The single like that or the reflecting pool.

[Dan Coates]

Okay, exempting. Exempting. I mean, Jimothy is actually the real competitor for the Odyssey here as Fun as it would be to do, you know, 40 minutes on. On Jimothy. I have enjoyed seeing some tattoo artists that I follow put their Jimothy Flash designs into the feed. I think that's a little. I don't think it would take a real pop culture nerd to commit to something like that. Although, Josh, your friends and your tattoo habits, maybe you guys are the intended audience of something like that.

[Josh Gilbert]

The raccoon. Is that what we're talking about? Jimothy Raccoon?

[Dan Coates]

Yeah, yeah, the raccoon with the sort of shortened spine that has stolen the hearts of the world.

[Josh Gilbert]

Yes, for sure.

[Dan Coates]

Erling Holland handed over everyone's hearts to Jimothy at the end of the World cup, although I think they technically overlapped. Okay, but the Odyssey, I don't want to talk about it just because it's monocultural. I think that the Odyssey is so interesting because it is a very high level adaptation. Nolan is one of the highest level directors we have. He's in a very small group of filmmakers with Denis Villeneuve and a handful of others. You know, I mean, Scorsese's still alive. Guys like that. Like, he really executed this story at such a high level, which makes it really palatable for a lot of people to see. But what I'm interested in about it is the ancientness of it. And that is the part for me that kind of most directly ties into psychology, to religious studies, to get kind of all the stuff that. That I typically am interested in. So I've got a couple things to talk about there. But I wanted to start by asking you guys what you thought of it, and if there's anything that has been kicking around for you that would be fun for us to discuss in relation to the Odyssey. I'll say, listener, if you haven't. We're going to spoil the odyssey, which is 3,000 years old. And anyway, I don't really think that telling you the plot of the Odyssey harms it. Like, I didn't totally remember all the plot, but then of course I remembered all of it as I saw it and it didn't matter. That's not the point. It's not about not knowing what happens, but if you really don't want to have it spoiled, or if you'd rather watch it and then come back and listen, then skip ahead. Josh will put the timing of our next segment in the show notes, and you can skip all of this. Josh, let's start with you.

[Josh Gilbert]

Yeah. I'll preface by saying, em and I have been doing like weekly Date nights or like weekly time together. And this was one of the best recent date nights. We went to go see the Odyssey at a local theater that had like $5 tickets, and it was a completely full theater and it was amazing.

[Tony Jones]

So you did not see it in imax.

[Josh Gilbert]

I saw it in what's called Emacs at Imagine Theater. So there is like. It's not like imax, but there is like, upgraded sound and is a bigger screen. I don't know what the difference is, but it.

[Dan Coates]

It's a. It's a Chinese knockoff brand. They also make an E phone and they used to make epods. Yeah, you know, those are kind of out of fashion now.

[Josh Gilbert]

Yeah. So it felt like imax, but not technically. No. It was loud enough that I needed to wear ear protection pretty much. And I do that for most movies now. I just wear it the whole. The whole movie. So my context going into it was we were just. It was. It was a great night and we just loved it. Like, it's. I feel like most movies I see at least in the last 10 years since being like, sort of an adult, I'm just. I'm not that into new movies all that much. And I'm. Something breaks the immersion or I don't like the acting or whatever. And I'll say that I was entertained the entire. What is it? Two and a half, 240 minutes? Like, it's. It. Yeah, it was amazing. I love the movie Troy. So it kind of brought up a lot of nostalgia. They're kind of mirroring the Iliad and the Odyssey and.

[Dan Coates]

And shout out to the director's cut of Troy, which is superior.

[Josh Gilbert]

I don't know if I've seen it

[Dan Coates]

and I. I would recommend it. Sometimes it's on like, Netflix or HBO or things like that. It's really good.

[Josh Gilbert]

But, yeah, it was. I mean, people joke about Christopher Nolan making, like, boy movies, that they're just movies that boys like because they have action and whatever. But Emily and I equally loved it. We had lots to say about it. You know, the whole, like, not using special effects and what they were able to accomplish with some of those scenes were just, like, breathtaking. And I don't know the details enough, like Tony will, to take issue with much of it. I really just was. I loved it. I thought it was great. It was moving and I totally recommend it.

[Tony Jones]

Tony, I mean, what do you want me to talk about? There's. I have a lot. You know, I have many, many opinions about it. I'll say that My. My My. My movie. Well, I mean, shocking. That's like my genre. You know what I'm saying?

[Dan Coates]

Yeah, yeah, totally.

[Tony Jones]

I mean, I. I like, translated books of the Odyssey from Greek into English in college as part of my, you know, classics major and the theater going experience. I saw an imax, which, Josh, you should go back and do, because even Christopher Nolan, like, Christopher Nolan is saying you should watch it in 70 millimeter IMAX, which we don't even have one of those theaters in Minnesota. I think there's 44 in the country.

[Dan Coates]

I think there's one in Seattle. Yeah, it's hard to get.

[Tony Jones]

My son, My oldest son flew to California to watch it at Man's Chinese Theater. Oh, my God. So that he could see it in 70 millimeter image.

[Dan Coates]

I hope that wasn't the only purpose of his trip. That's extremely. He. Did he see friends or anything?

[Tony Jones]

No, bro, he's an I. He's like a CEO of an AI company. This is the kind of shit they do on their day off. Okay, this is Tanner. Yeah. This. Look, here's. Here's the problem with the moving going experience right now. This is part of my, like, growing misanthropy is the guy on the right side of me must have had OCD. Okay. We're at a 2 o' clock matinee. We've all paid 25 plus dollars to see it in IMAX. I bought my tickets two weeks in advance, so I'd have, like a perfect seat right in the middle, like two thirds of the way back where you want to see an IMAX screen. The guy to the right of me would eat one piece of popcorn, and then he would take one of those crinkly little movie theater napkins and I shit you not. He would wipe each of his ten fingers, and then he would eat one more piece of popcorn and then he would wipe. He kept doing this through the whole fucking movie. Okay, and then. Wait, no, that's not. That's not all friends. There's more. The guy to my left is starting. I see him, like, moving his left arm up and down, up and down, up and down. And I look over at him. I thought, oh, maybe his arm fell asleep. Or he's trying to wake it up. No, up and down, up and down, up and down. Then he looks at his fucking apple watch. He's trying to convince his apple watch. That he's getting his steps in during the movie.

[Josh Gilbert]

Bad.

[Tony Jones]

During, like, my major theatrical experience of the year. Like, I've been waiting for this Christopher Nolan Odyssey movie I've read the Odyssey multiple times. I love the story. I know it. And this guy is trying to get his fucking steps in on his apple watch.

[Dan Coates]

He's trying to pretend. He's pretending to get his steps in.

[Tony Jones]

So I look over at him and like, you have got to stop that. And he, like, looked. Stop activity. He writes on. He type taps on his watch. I'm like, this is.

[Josh Gilbert]

Why would you do that?

[Tony Jones]

This is a world gone mad. This is a world gone mad. No kidding.

[Dan Coates]

But why do you, like.

[Tony Jones]

I had mentally ill people on either side of me. Well, okay.

[Dan Coates]

I mean, you know, one could say that is the. That is the state of the world if we wanted to be, I don't know, glib about it, but what kept you from telling the OCD guy to cut. To shut it down?

[Tony Jones]

I did. When he pulled out his phone to look at it, I told him, put your phone away to the OCD guy. I wasn't gonna tell him, stop cleaning your fingers. I mean, that seems to be the

[Dan Coates]

much more egregious act.

[Tony Jones]

Yeah, he had.

[Dan Coates]

Was taken.

[Tony Jones]

I mean, it was. That, frankly, was less. Was less distracting than the guy swinging his arm in tear.

[Josh Gilbert]

Maybe he was just really into it, Tony. You don't know what kind of conditions.

[Dan Coates]

You know what it is. He. He thought that he. He got IMAX tickets, but he had thought he got RPX tickets and that he was gonna feel like he was jogging with Odysseus and bouncing up and down with Ocean.

[Tony Jones]

Don't. Don't people like. Don't some people, like, you have to get certain steps in to get like a discount on your health insurance and stuff like that. I mean, maybe. Or maybe he's on a diet and his wife checks his steps every day at the end of the day, or who knows?

[Dan Coates]

It's got to be something like that.

[Tony Jones]

I'm just like, this is complete madness.

[Dan Coates]

It was madness.

[Tony Jones]

This is madness.

[Dan Coates]

But I don't know that it is representative of, in your words, quote, the movie going experience these days.

[Tony Jones]

I mean, somebody. I told somebody else this. I told you. I told my cousin this. And he was like, that's what you get for going to a matinee.

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

What?

[Tony Jones]

Like, who can go to a movie at 2 in the afternoon? You know, he's like a corporate lawyer downtown. He's like, normal people don't go to movies at two in the afternoon on a weekday.

[Dan Coates]

That might be true.

[Tony Jones]

The theater was full, you know, anyway.

[Dan Coates]

Well, I. I thought it was. I thought it was great. I thought it was very Very well made. I, I, mostly what I like about it is that I've been thinking about it for 48 hours afterwards. That's kind of my, that's the best thing a movie can do. It's just get me thinking about it for the, the rest of the week. I, I had just a, I had a couple things that are kind of twinned. We could talk about maybe one of them and then we'll go to Will open Tony's Rolodex of Odyssey. Opinions? The magic wonder majorium of Tony's. Okay, anyway, so basically there were two items in the film that I thought it was really powerful because I've been working on a little something that I don't know if it's going to end up being a podcast sort of series of episodes or if I'll try and write it into something, or if maybe I won't do anything with it. But it is this thing where I'm going through moments in my life that mattered a lot spiritually or religion wise. And the one that I was working on, what took place in my undergrad, my philosophy undergrad days. And that's when my deconstruction started. And it specifically started around moral and ethical questions, which makes sense as a philosophy major at a state school. But specifically it was about the Canaanite conquest, about the story of God commanding the Israelites to take the land of Canaan for themselves. And in doing so, in many of the specific city states listed to kill every living being, sometimes all the way through the animals, but often including the women and the children. So in the film, they depict the sack of Troy twice in the first. And this is a Nolan thing to sort of show things from, you know, a couple different times with different meanings in the two, you know, in the two or more times it comes up, and in the first one, we get Menelaus telling of it, who was there. And it's basically a. It's a story of triumph, of military triumph. The Trojan horse works and they succeed. But then at the very end of the movie, when Odysseus is talking to Penelope right before he reveals his identity, he retells the story and we see different shots. And this time Odysseus is focusing on the sort of indiscriminate slaughter of innocent people for the purpose of, you know, Agamemnon. What is it really to get Helen? The movie tells us, no, it was for trade routes. It was sort of the normal reason that people go to war, which is essentially sort of selfish and economic and for power and you get all these shots of the soldiers, like, directly murdering women. And in fact, the Zendaya character who's. Who's playing Athena, you actually realize, oh, she's representing Athena, but that actual person was a priestess in Athena's temple that was killed. That, you know, you get the sense she got her head cut off and that the statue is supposed to. That's how I understood it. And that makes me think of the Canaanite conquest. Like, if we had video of what that. The Book of Judges. I think it's Joshua, of what the Book of Joshua describes happening. It would look like Israelite soldiers stabbing pregnant women through the belly to make sure to kill both of them, and slaughtering women and children in the streets. And I think that we are typically, as Christians, we're very shielded from those kinds of stories. We don't focus on them. We don't dramatize them to the extent that we do dramatize them. We leave all that stuff out. We just show them marching around Jericho with the horns and the walls falling down. We don't show the rest of the Jericho story, which is killing all the women and children. And I just find it powerful. I found it powerful. I've been enjoying thinking through, like, seeing that depicted. Now, it wasn't depicting Jericho, but, you know, it was easy for me to make that connection. Yeah, I wanted to. I wanted to know if either of you guys sort of. Did you make that connection at all or what. What does that sort of bring up for you?

[Tony Jones]

Well, I. Yeah, this is one of the things I have lots of thoughts about.

[Dan Coates]

Well, I was going to say this kind of ties into your book because of all the research you did to understand the time. It's very much a ancient worldview kind of a question.

[Tony Jones]

Yeah, Yeah, I think you're right that modern people who have not immersed themselves in the ancient world don't understand how brutal it was and don't really understand. And this is, I think, why Nolan changed the story so dramatically.

[Dan Coates]

Yeah. And we can talk about that is,

[Tony Jones]

I don't think, you know, those people had no moral compunction about slaughtering their enemies. That was the way of the world. And I know we get like, everyone's up in arms about Israel and Palestine or about Russia in Ukraine or whatever. These. The. The level of death and slaughter that is happening in those conflicts right now in our world are not even in the same ballpark as what happened in the ancient world with much more rudimentary weapons, mind you, and much more like, you didn't just shoot a dude through the temple and he fell down. You hacked him to death with a sword or you ran him through with a lance and. And the bronze tip came out the other end. There's over and over in the Iliad and the Odyssey. There's like. There's. There's depictions of people who have these massive broadswords brought down like on their head splits through their entire body is split from head to horse and they fall into on two sides. Now you know, this is poetic license and that would be a hell of a sword stroke to do it.

[Josh Gilbert]

But these.

[Tony Jones]

But. But also, you know, whoever Homer was wasn't just making stuff up like.

[Dan Coates]

Yeah, yeah, this was.

[Tony Jones]

These were 400 year old stories from the Trojan War that had been passed down orally that got turned into these two poems. The Iliad and the Odyssey. And Nolan for Nolan to Nolan basically rewrote the story. If the motivation. First of all. Yeah, I agree. It was a beautiful film. It's so cool that he shot the whole thing in imax that he had to build. He had to build a box to go around the IMAX camera so he could film dialogue. Cause he didn't want anything overdubbed. And the IMAX camera's so loud.

[Dan Coates]

They're really loud. Yeah.

[Tony Jones]

That they've never been able to film like close up dialogue with an IMAX camera till he had them build this soundproof box. You know. That's just incredible. And I have. I love Christopher Nolan films. I. I don't think just he's in the crowd of the best filmmakers. I think he is in my opinion the best filmmaker alive today. But he did fundamentally change the story and I think he changed it for modern western tastes.

[Dan Coates]

Agreed.

[Tony Jones]

Which is what the motivate. First of all, I don't really know what the motivation was for Odysseus to go home. You know it in the poem. There's no question in the poem why he wants to get home. But you don't really know it in the film why he wants to go home. And then you find out he's basically tortured by ptsd. Cause he feels guilty about war. Because he breaks Xenia, which is the law of Zeus, which is Nolan retranslates that the law of Zeus into the golden rule. That is not what's happening.

[Dan Coates]

Yeah. It's a lot more like Jesus.

[Josh Gilbert]

Yeah.

[Tony Jones]

Oh yeah. It's the Christianization of the Odyssey. Cuz he. Cuz he takes this minor thing in the Odyssey which is. Which is, you know, treat other people nicely. Because what if it's a God in disguise. But it. That's not. It's not like there's no golden rule to it.

[Dan Coates]

It.

[Tony Jones]

It's like you don't want to get caught by a God your pants down.

[Dan Coates]

Yeah. You don't want to get over by that.

[Tony Jones]

And if you can trick a God. If you can trick a God, trick a God, trick a God. And I mean, that's like. The funny thing about the Odyssey is Odysseus is such a larger than life character. He is a trickster. He's constantly. He's very mischievous with women, with his own men, and then, of course, with everybody from, you know, the Cyclops to the Sirens to Calypso. He's always tricking people. He's always messing with people. He sleeps with a ton of women, you know, Left a lot of that out.

[Dan Coates]

Yeah.

[Tony Jones]

Oh, left all that out. You know, like. Oh, well, you.

[Dan Coates]

Well, I think it's implied that he's sleeping with.

[Tony Jones]

It's implied with Calypso. It's. It's a. But, but you're not going to spend

[Dan Coates]

seven years on an island with Charlize Theron and not get down. If you look like Matt Damon, that's just not going to happen.

[Tony Jones]

Right. But, like.

[Dan Coates]

But really show it.

[Tony Jones]

He basically says in the. In the poem, he basically says to Cersei, like, hey, will you turn my men from pigs back into my soldiers if I have to sleep with you to make you do it? Okay, I guess I will. So he sleeps with her for a long time. Like, he's on Cersei's island for a long time and they're still kicks, and he's sleeping with them the whole time with her the whole time, until she finally, you know, he tricks her into turning them back into people's masculine wives, reason with her like in the movie, and he sure as hell isn't suffering from PTSD because he feels guilty about the Trojan Horse and it broke the law of Xenia. That's just absolutely made up Out Of Thin Air by Christopher Nolan. I don't know why. I guess because, I mean, there have been a few interviews with him where people have pressed him on this, and he has admitted that he did bring that to the fore. And. But he hasn't really said why he felt like he, you know, obviously a filmmaker needs a singular motivation for the protagonist, and that's what he chose, was the singular motivation. But it left Odysseus as kind of a hollow man, kind of a earnest. In the Odyssey, he's laughing, he's like every third page it says Odysseus wept bitterly. You know, he's constantly weeping. He's like almost bipolar in the poem because he's just back and forth between being this funny, crazy trickster and. And weeping and tearing out his clothes and throwing ashes on his head. Cause he's grieving. Cause he'll never get home, you know, and stuff like that. And then finally, I'll say this. The gods are everywhere. In the Odyssey and the Iliad, he left them out. They are characters. They are characters.

[Dan Coates]

They would show up as Zeus would be literally shown throwing lightning bolts from heaven if you were to do it.

[Tony Jones]

Of the Odyssey, they mention Odysseus, but it's an argument between the gods about Odysseus. It's a little bit like Satan and Yahweh arguing about Job. And Job is kind of like on a chessboard, you know?

[Dan Coates]

Yep. Well, that is the stuff that is so interesting to me. Let's transition over to Patreon content. So if you want to hear the rest of our conversation. Patreon.com Dan Koch. That link is always in the notes.

[Josh Gilbert]

Well, okay, George. And the Odyssey. I just want to say, do eat.

[Dan Coates]

Oh, we're going to keep talking about the Odyssey. We're just going to ask people to pay us money to listen.

[Josh Gilbert]

Oh, I was so earnest. Now people have to pay to hear what I was about to say. All right,

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