GGCH: World Cup, Down Syndrome and Have US Men Stopped Reading? (#407)

Summary

Religion on the Mind: Generation Gap Culture Hour – #407

Episode Theme:
A lively and irreverent discussion on contemporary culture, literature, masculinity, ethical dilemmas, and generational perspectives among three hosts with a 25-year age gap. They share current obsessions, debate “dude lit,” and dissect the decline of male readership in America—all peppered with humor and thoughtful asides.

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1. Introduction to the Generation Gap Culture Hour

• [01:46] Dan Koch welcomes back Dr. Tony Jones and Josh Gilbert, explaining the premise: three men of different generations discussing culture, with a focus on where their age gaps produce interesting differences.
• The tone is casual, personal, and frequently comedic, with a willingness to get "loose" compared to regular episodes.
• Generational focus: "We do life together. We also try to look at a sort of age-stage, developmental, generational angle for at least one or two questions per episode." – Dan Koch [04:23]

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2. Current Cultural Obsessions: Roundtable

Tony Jones:

• Reading "All the Pretty Horses" by Cormac McCarthy
  • "Of all the cultural artifacts I'm absorbing right now, I think I'm reading All the Pretty Horses by Cormac McCarthy." [04:56]
  • Praises McCarthy's ability to write fiction without quotation marks, lauding the author’s literary prowess:
    "To write a novel with no quote marks and yet you still know who is speaking, that's an extraordinary gift." – Tony Jones [05:22]
• Umpiring ‘Town Ball’ (Amateur Baseball) in Minnesota:
  • Emphasizes the mental and rule-based preparation required.
  • Offers a humorous aside when “baseball” is revealed as a youth group code word for masturbation—as discussed by Josh.

Josh Gilbert:

• Philosophy Book: "Bubbles" by Peter Sloterdijk
  • Reading high-brow philosophy as a way to experience "shivers" of intellectual novelty. [14:19]
  • "When I read philosophy...my goal is to get shivers. I get shivers when I read something new and novel." – Josh Gilbert [14:24]
• TV Series: "Dave" on Hulu
  • Lauds the authenticity of dialogue and guest stars, calling it nearly top ten all-time for him. [15:40]
  • “We have just been like, cackling every night.” [16:40]

Dan Koch:

• The Strokes ‘Renaissance’
  • Rediscovering the band, calling them a “top 10 rock band” for him; enthusiastic about their recent Rick Rubin record. [29:33]
  • Shares a personal story about guilt over pirating music, connecting it to religious scrupulosity and magical thinking. [18:04]
  • "I made the mistake of telling my bandmates, who then gave me shit for years, that I was considering that God had taken it from me as a punishment for pirating." [19:19]

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3. Religion, Sexuality, and Moral Scrupulosity

• Masturbation-as-Baseball Code in Youth Group
  • Josh reveals “baseball” as churchy code for masturbation. This sparks nostalgia and critique of religious obsession with sexual behaviors.
  • "When I hear stuff like that I just think religion is so bad for people." – Tony Jones [07:55]
  • Dan offers the therapist’s perspective: "Even with all the trauma and everything, for the median, statistical median person, religiosity and religious involvement are net positives." [08:11]
• Nuanced Discussion on Queer Identity in Religion
  • Tony brings up ideological splits within the LGBTQ+ community, particularly pushback against the term "queer" from some gays and lesbians. [09:30]
  • Dan discusses risk factors for harm among queer congregants in non-affirming churches.
  • The group uses this tangent to reflect on generational and religious changes regarding sexuality.

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4. Ethics of "Stealing" and Personal Anecdotes

• Discussion extends from Dan’s old guilt over pirated media to modern streaming, theft, and the ethics of “underreporting” income as a touring musician.
• Tony’s Take:
  • Hardline stance: “You're stealing. You may not like it... but you're stealing something.” [21:51]
  • Shares that all his books are pirated online, and laments AI scraping his written content.
• Josh Confesses Streaming NBA Illegally:
  • Cites high costs, admits guilt, but Tony rebuts “That’s bullshit. You can't do that. You don't get to decide whether it’s ethically fine…based on how much it costs.” [21:51]
• Merch Table Underreporting Ethics:
  • Dan admits past band would “cheat” on reporting merchandise sales to avoid predatory venue fees.
  • Anecdote about their merch gal Beth confronting them: “You can tell yourself whatever you want...but you are breaking the rule and you're stealing, and you're lying.” [26:32]

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5. Generational, Gendered Reading, and "Dude Lit"

Dan introduces his Book Club concept: “Dude Lit”

• [34:46] The book club criteria:
  • “Dude” = male-oriented content: war, crime, addiction, violence, espionage, etc.
  • “Lit” = must be literary, not just plot-driven genre fiction.
  • “John Grisham is dude but not lit. Cormac McCarthy: dude lit.” [36:46]
• Tony offers industry distinctions:
  • “There’s three levels: literary fiction at the top…then commercial fiction…and upmarket, which is the middle ground. Like that’s what I write.” [36:59]
• Dan’s Book Club:
  • First read: Butcher’s Crossing by John Williams—wildly successful.
  • Next: Tender is the Night by F. Scott Fitzgerald. Dan suspects it may be less “dude” than ideal but is experimenting.
  • Tony is skeptical Fitzgerald counts as “dude lit”: “There's dark undercurrents in chick lit…and that doesn’t make it masculine.” [46:02]

The crisis of men not reading:

• Tony discusses his Substack post: "Dudes Who Read—the last of a tribe." [40:23]
  • "The number of American men who read books is tanking. Including my sons. Men don't read books anymore." – Tony Jones [40:53]
• Dan is heartened by his book club success: “I invited maybe 12 friends...nine of them said yes, read the whole book and showed up stoked to talk about it. This feels good. It's like something that I've been missing maybe.” [47:56]

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6. Memorable Quotes & Highlights

• On Cormac McCarthy:

  • “To write a novel with no quote marks and yet you still know who’s speaking, that’s an extraordinary gift.” – Tony Jones [05:22]

• On Religion & Sexual Codes:

  • “When I hear stuff like that I just think religion is so bad for people.” – Tony Jones [07:55]

• On Stealing Content:

  • “You may not like it...but you’re stealing something.” – Tony Jones [21:51]
  • “That's like the old…when did you stop beating your wife?” – Tony Jones, on inadvertently confrontational questioning [12:54]

• On Reading for Men:

  • “The number of American men who read books is tanking. Including my sons." – Tony Jones [40:53]

• On Book Club Success:

  • "Every, like, to a man, it was like, this is great. Like, this feels good. It's like something that I've been missing maybe." – Dan Koch [47:56]

• On “Dude Lit” Criteria:

  • “There’s nothing wrong with watching Heat…women can love it too, but like, yeah, it’s Heat. It’s like a great guy film, and it’s also a great film, and those can exist side by side.” – Dan Koch [49:21]

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7. Segment Timestamps for Key Discussion Areas

• [01:46] – Start of Culture Hour & Generation Gap premise
• [04:56] – Tony’s cultural picks: McCarthy & baseball umpiring
• [06:46] – “Baseball” as masturbation: church code and religious scrutiny
• [08:11] – Net positives/negatives of religion by Dan
• [12:12] – Awkwardness/funny anecdote: misremembering someone’s sexuality
• [15:40] – Josh on "Dave" (Hulu)
• [19:19] – Dan’s story of lost hard drive and “God’s punishment”
• [21:51] – Ethical debate: stealing, music piracy, and streaming
• [26:32] – Merch table confession & band morals
• [34:46] – Dan introduces “dude lit”/book club concept
• [36:59] – Fiction categories explained by Tony
• [40:23] – Men not reading; Tony’s Substack
• [47:56] – Book club triumph, encouraging men to read
• [49:21] – On art “aimed at dudes” and male culture
• [50:57] – Switch to Patreon, teasing topics of World Cup, Down syndrome, selling out

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8. Tone & Style

Conversational, occasionally irreverent, blending academic insight with humor and “a little cussing.” The hosts balance deep dives (on literature, ethics, sexuality) with generational ribbing and self-deprecation.

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Summary Takeaway

This episode of Religion on the Mind’s Generation Gap Culture Hour finds the hosts enthusiastically sharing what’s currently lighting up their lives—books, music, TV—while wrestling with big questions: What is ethical consumption? Are men losing touch with reading culture? And what does it really mean for something to be "dude lit"? With a blend of nostalgia, honesty, and banter, they challenge and amuse each other (and listeners) on culture, morality, and the shifting world of masculinity.

For those who haven’t listened, expect profane asides, philosophical digressions, and genuine prompts to read and think more deeply—or just enjoy the ride.

Transcript

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[Tony Jones]

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[Dan Koch]

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[Dan Koch]

Welcome back everybody to Religion on the Mind. I'm your host, Dr. Dan Koch, licensed therapist. Not just welcome back to Religion on the Mind, though. Welcome back after a stunning three month absence to Generation Gap Culture Hour with Josh and Tony. If you haven't heard one of these before, this is where Tony Jones, Josh Gilbert and myself, there's a 20, 25 year gap. Yeah.

[Tony Jones]

Dr. Tony Jones. If we're throwing around doctors. If that's literally. Never introduced myself, never introduced myself as Dr. Tony Jo.

[Dan Koch]

Yeah, well, you're not a therapist. It's a little different. It doesn't mean. It doesn't. It doesn't get it. You just write difference.

[Josh Gilbert]

Tony.

[Tony Jones]

No, come on.

[Dan Koch]

Is it actually Reverend Doctor One time.

[Tony Jones]

Yeah, one time when I was quoted in the New York Times, I wrote that reporter and I'm like, why don't you say doctor, you say Mr. Jones, you know, because that's a New York Times style guide there for the first time they refer to you with first and last name. And then subsequent times they use Mr. Ms. Jones, Doctor, whatever. And they're like, well, we use Doctor if that's how you're known colloquially in the public realm and that's not how you're known. So we don't use doctor.

[Dan Koch]

Oh, interesting. How do they establish colloquially knownness?

[Tony Jones]

I mean, I guess author name maybe

[Dan Koch]

like on the book, you know, like maybe.

[Tony Jones]

I'm sure.

[Dan Koch]

Andrew Newborn.

[Tony Jones]

I'm guessing with MDs they use Dr. But they don't for PhDs and they definitely don't for cites.

[Dan Koch]

I'd beg to differ.

[Josh Gilbert]

Tony, are you happy that it's not 9pm right now?

[Tony Jones]

So happy, you guys. This is.

[Dan Koch]

Are we starting over or is this all in? What's the consensus here? I think we're in. Okay, I guess we're in. So the Reverend Dr. Tony Jones. There we go, comrade. Josh Gilbert.

[Tony Jones]

Ged Josh Gilbert.

[Josh Gilbert]

Little guy Josh Gilbert.

[Dan Koch]

What he lacks in skill, he makes up for in heart. Okay. He's really all in. And myself, dan. Anyway, there's 25 year age gap between Josh and Tony and I'm kind of in the middle. And we always attempt. We get a little more silly, we get a little more loose on these episodes. We also talk about sort of cultural issues, maybe not so specifically psychological or religious, but kind of more wide. We share life together. We do life together, really.

[Tony Jones]

We do life together. We do life together.

[Dan Koch]

And we do try and look at a sort of age stage, developmental generational angle for at least one or two questions per episode. I thought today let's just start with culture. So broadly speaking. I asked you guys to think of one or two things. I kept it to one. One or two things that you are really enjoying right now anywhere, you know, arts, sports, etc. And I'd like to force Tony to answer first.

[Tony Jones]

Yeah, sure. I'm. Of all the, of all the cultural artifacts I'm absorbing right now, I think I'm reading All the Pretty horses by Cormac McCarthy.

[Dan Koch]

Oh, shit. I'm just, I love that book.

[Tony Jones]

I'm just again reminded of what an exceptional author he is.

[Dan Koch]

Yeah.

[Tony Jones]

And how he's able to. I mean, I've been writing fiction now for like 10 years and to be able to write like that, like let's just say to write a novel with no quote marks and. And yet you still know who is speaking all the time. That's just people who don't write fiction wouldn't know like how difficult that is to do that. That's just an extraordinary gift. And he's in a whole nother realm of writing prowess that I'll never even come close to. So I'd say that's the one kind of cultural thing that I'm really, I'm. I'm reading right now and really loving. And then otherwise a lot of baseball, because I umpire what's called town ball here, amateur baseball here in Minnesota, which is a bunch of. It's a wood bat league with a lot of college and former college players. So I, I have a lot of time of thinking about baseball and baseball rules and watching like YouTube videos on baseball rules breakdowns and stuff like that. Because what you don't want is to get hung out to dry when something happens and you're not prepared. So there's a lot of like, you just got to be in the right head space to officiate high level sports. Like that.

[Dan Koch]

Interesting.

[Google Chrome Announcer]

Yeah.

[Josh Gilbert]

Have I ever told you guys that back in my back in my youth we would refer to masturbation as baseball as like a code word so we could talk about it?

[Dan Koch]

No, you've never told us that.

[Josh Gilbert]

I've never told you guys that.

[Dan Koch]

I'm pretty sure I would remember if you had told.

[Josh Gilbert]

So literally playing baseball, like I've done a lot of baseball lately. Looking, looking up a lot of baseball.

[Dan Koch]

I'm just like, he's just join all day.

[Josh Gilbert]

Yeah. Because we could be at church in like youth group and like, it'd be like a code way to be like, that's a code.

[Dan Koch]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Josh Gilbert]

How's baseball going, guys?

[Dan Koch]

Yeah, how's baseball going? Oh, like in accountability groups.

[Tony Jones]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Participant]

Yeah.

[Josh Gilbert]

But it was a way to like do it each other passing so that we could be like around women or something and say baseball.

[Dan Koch]

Yeah, because you're not. Because in youth group you don't get enough time directly talking about how much you need a code word so that you can have more instances of those conversations. Since it's obviously the only thing that matters in one's spiritual walk is how much.

[Josh Gilbert]

In my journals from when I was 15, it's like a code of. It's like baseball happened two minus X days ago. And like, you know, oh my gosh. Keeping track of it all each day, a little bit of my scrupulosity kicking

[Tony Jones]

in when I hear stuff like that. I just think religion is so bad for people. That's what I think when I hear that.

[Dan Koch]

That's not though.

[Tony Jones]

That's what I think. Oh, you okay, Dan? You tell us it's not. But I'm telling you it is.

[Dan Koch]

Okay, yeah, that's the part that it's bad for people. I think that is often a part of it that is bad for people. I'm not saying that that part's good for people. I'm saying even with all the trauma and everything, for the median, statistical median person, religiosity and religious involvement are net positives.

[Tony Jones]

That's like, there's no such thing as a median person.

[Josh Gilbert]

But yeah, actually that is interesting for the. With your. When you're assessing someone, Dan, is there a criteria where you can say like you are in the group, the median of people that will be benefit? You know, if someone's lgbtq, is it like, well, for you it's less likely?

[Dan Koch]

Yeah. A queer person in a non affirming denomination, which is the vast majority Christian denominations, that is often enough to knock you out of that category because it's going to inevitably cause all kinds of strain and stress. And so, yeah, being queer is maybe the quickest way to get oneself out of that statistically average group. But I have like, I have had queer clients who had tough experiences with the church and even still would go, I'm still glad I was raised in it. All things equal, you know, like, that's not enough to make it a net negative. There's obviously there's 100 possible variables for every person and it's extremely complicated.

[Tony Jones]

Yeah, I've been hearing a lot of pushback on the queer term from gays and lesbians. I've been reading that, reading about it. And they do not like that. They get lumped in with. They're like, we are, we have nothing in common with trans people. This is like we fought for. This is a little bit like a J.K. rowling fighting against trans people, you know, whatever. Trans people in safe women's spaces, they're like, we fought for gay and lesbian rights and those rights are being eroded because we're being lumped in with all queers. And they're like, we're not queer, we're gay, we're lesbian, we're not queer. You don't get to change the terms of the debate on us when we were the people.

[Dan Koch]

I'm just, yeah, I don't know.

[Tony Jones]

I found those a very interesting, compelling

[Josh Gilbert]

argument you're reading on turfclub.com.

[Tony Jones]

yeah, yeah, it is from like, it is from like Andrew Sullivan or like a little more of a little more conservative center right. Gays and lesbians are saying this like, we're not queer, we're gay. You Know, like why are you. Why do you.

[Dan Koch]

Well, I'm neither gay nor queer.

[Tony Jones]

Forces get to.

[Dan Koch]

Yeah, I get it.

[Tony Jones]

I mean, a lot of straight people call themselves queer.

[Dan Koch]

Though I would say with the exception of COVID bisexuals, every other type of being queer will run you into trouble in a conservative Christian congregation. So where the sort of therapeutic trauma, that whole thing is gonna work out roughly similar if you are trans or gay or lesbian or whatever. Like, not if you're asexual though. For instance, like asexual people often do quite well in conservative religious settings because there is, you know, there's a. There's a celibate culture within Christianity in most forms. And so there can be. So yeah, it's. I don't mean to paint with only one brush. There, there's differences. But I just mean if you're outside the norm sexually in a conservative religious environment, that is probably going to end poorly. That is going to add a bunch of friction and pain and distress.

[Josh Gilbert]

I know we're kind of off topic. I'll get to my interest in a second, but can't wait to hear what your cultural story. I don't know if this will embarrass you, Dan, or me more to remind us of this, but do you remember like two years ago when you texted me I'm doing an episode on something. Something queer. I don't know. And you said you're bi. Right. Is how you phrased it. Do you remember that?

[Dan Koch]

Yeah.

[Tony Jones]

Cause I think you had said that. Oh my gosh.

[Dan Koch]

Didn't you say that?

[Unidentified Participant]

No.

[Josh Gilbert]

I mean, no.

[Dan Koch]

Okay, just to be clear, I then misremembered, like I had thought you had disclosed that that was not me. I wasn't like. I'm good at reading the tea.

[Josh Gilbert]

That's what I thought.

[Tony Jones]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Dan Koch]

I must have just been mixing you up with somebody else.

[Tony Jones]

Josh, you do present as mine.

[Josh Gilbert]

It's. That's, that's why I need to hear

[Dan Koch]

your opinions other than your painted nails. No, I'm not getting into that. No. Oh, look, they're clear right now. No, I'm sorry, you have never. No, I didn't. That was not me. That was me thinking I was remembering something but misremembering it. Just.

[Tony Jones]

That's like, that's like the old. So when did you stop beating your wife? You know that there.

[Dan Koch]

Oh, there's, there's like Emily Catalano who's like. She's like a post evangelical stand up comedian who's kind of blowing up right now. I actually went to Junior high with her brother. Anyway, she's from the Bay Area, and she has this, you know, she has a bit where, you know, she's, like, with her boyfriend or whatever or a friend, and they're like, so are you gonna. What Are you. Are you gonna do anything about your lazy eye? And she's like. And that's how I found out I have a lazy.

[Unidentified Participant]

Oh, my God.

[Dan Koch]

It's pretty good.

[Josh Gilbert]

Okay.

[Dan Koch]

All right, Josh, what's your cultural item?

[Josh Gilbert]

Okay, well, I have a boring philosophy book that I'm really liking, but I think I'd rather talk about.

[Dan Koch]

Just at least name it. Just name it.

[Tony Jones]

Let's talk about it.

[Josh Gilbert]

I'm reading the first volume of a trilogy called Bubbles Spheres on micro spherology. It's. I don't even know how to say his name. Peter Slaughter? Jake. Maybe one of you know.

[Dan Koch]

I don't know.

[Unidentified Participant]

Okay.

[Josh Gilbert]

It's. I don't know. Back end to Heidegger's being in time.

[Google Chrome Announcer]

It's.

[Dan Koch]

It's moving on into Heidegger's being in time.

[Unidentified Participant]

If.

[Dan Koch]

If being in time wasn't enough for you, if you're in line waiting for that Star wars prequel, let me tell you, here's the book. The Bubbles trilogy.

[Josh Gilbert]

I know it's a weird title, but it's awesome.

[Dan Koch]

It's also a trilogy. So that was. That worked out well with the Star.

[Josh Gilbert]

That was really good. When I read philosophy, I, I, I try to. I don't have that much time to read, but when I do, my goal is to get shivers. I don't know why, but I get shivers when I read something, like, new and novel. It's kind of a weird, like, internal metric. Yeah. Yeah, maybe.

[Dan Koch]

Is it a little. Is that a little bit of what you're saying? A feeling of connecting to something bigger and then.

[Josh Gilbert]

Yeah, kind of. Or like, your mind being opened, like, by the paragraph you're reading. I just. I get shivers, and then I, like, think about that the rest of the day. That's like. My goal is to, like, sort of find something that stimulates my mind the

[Dan Koch]

rest of the day at bonus points if it, if you could get it into a sound bite that would fit in between pulling on a bong and blowing out. So if you can. If you go, did you guys realize? And if you could do it there and then you get. That's bonus points.

[Josh Gilbert]

Okay, I can add the sound effects in later, but that. Yeah, I love that stuff. I love Heidegger and what people are writing about after him. So that's. That's a sweet book. I'll. I've only just started it, so maybe later I'll have more to say about it. But the show that I've been rewatching, which is quickly becoming like, Top, maybe top 10 shows of all time for me, is the comedy drama Dave on Hulu. Have you seen it?

[Dan Koch]

I've heard really good things about it. I've never seen it. It's like. It's a bit of a cult classic right now. It's become kind of.

[Josh Gilbert]

Yeah, the rapper Lil Dicky. And I don't know what it is, his connections, but something about the directing and then the pop. He has so many celebrities on that all of a sudden just Justin Bieber's in an episode and Brad Pitt's in a whole episode. And, like, it's this comedy with all these, like, weird actors that you love to see. But the acting is. I've seen a lot of modern TV where what they do, they do such a good job of making it sound like modern conversation. Like, I don't know if it's partially improv or. But it's definitely doesn't feel scripted. Like you. You believe everything they're doing. At what. At one point, he's just like, in the middle of a scene and he just walks to, like, the corner of the room to fart and come back and just keeps talking like all of us have experienced. But it's not even like a show.

[Dan Koch]

Nobody comments on it. It's just there.

[Josh Gilbert]

It just. It just happens and then it resumes. It's not like a bit for the show anyway, that has. I've been watching with Emily and we have just been like, cackling every night.

[Dan Koch]

Okay.

[Unidentified Participant]

That.

[Dan Koch]

Yeah, you might be. You might have pushed me. Like those old games at the arcade where you try and put the quarters in to knock down the other quarters or the tokens or whatever the little coins that might be have finally cascaded. A bucket's worth of coins and therefore tickets. Just me to just.

[Josh Gilbert]

If you start it, just at least watch episode two and then you can decide after that.

[Dan Koch]

Don't do a pilot and dining dash. Okay.

[Josh Gilbert]

Exactly.

[Dan Koch]

I've got my item, and then I've got another item that's going to more tie into Tony's. So my pop culture item or cultural item is. I am in a Strokes renaissance right now. I think that I've always loved the Strokes since is this. It came out in 2001. I had a burned copy, I believe, of that record, which at the time was a slight sear on my evangelical conscience at, like, you know, 18 years old. But. And I. Oh, gosh, there's a story about that. I think I've probably told you guys about the hard drive that went missing. And I thought God was judging me for pirating music and movies every time

[Google Chrome Announcer]

I told you this story.

[Josh Gilbert]

I don't know. I don't know.

[Dan Koch]

Let me tell that story really quick. Okay. This is. I think it's funny. Oh, maybe I've told it on, like, a pretty Good Vibrations episode or something. That maybe is where it would have come up. I had a really strong conscience around pirating media in the 2000s, like, when I was in college. And our early, like, our touring years, we stopped touring at the end of 2010. So I, you know, I didn't have any money. I was a college kid. And then I was in a band. And Josh, you know, we. Our. Our band was at roughly your band's sort of financial level for three, four years, where it's like, you know, you get a per diem and you. You don't have a lot to spend. You're driving in a van or. We had a really shitty RV for a while after that, sleeping on floors. And so, you know. But I loved music and movies and. And you want access to those things, but you don't. And you make it, like, kind of for a living, but you don't have any money really to show for it. So I would pirate things, but I felt so bad about it, and I would go back and forth on this, and one time, you know, external hard drives used to look like. Kind of like iPhones look now, right? So I mean, they still make those, right? That shape, that size. So I had one of those external hard drives, and it did have a bunch of albums and stuff and movies maybe that were from, like, peer to peer downloading services. And I always felt kind of bad about it. And then one day I lost it in the rv and I looked fucking everywhere. I mean, I was like, no, no, I just had this. I just had it right over here. I never found it. And I made the mistake of telling my bandmates who then gave me shit for this for years, that I was fairly seriously considering the possibility that God had taken it from me as a punishment for pirating all of that music. Now, I don't have an OCD diagnosis, but I have got a little bit of moral scrupulosity as a trait level, and I think this is an example of that. And then a couple years went by. We eventually sold the rv. Our singer Kind of fixed it up and sold it to somebody. And he sends a picture of the hard drive. I guess God wasn't judging you, Dan. It was really buried between the seat and the armrest or something. It somehow gotten super wedged in some area and that. I just have never forgotten that. I really got that magical thinking about it.

[Josh Gilbert]

Wow.

[Tony Jones]

There's some real metaphysical problems with that whole.

[Dan Koch]

Of course there are situation. Of course I know. And I didn't. I never fully believed it, but I was like, I don't know. This is pretty weird. It's really gone. Okay. So, Josh, did you have anything to reply from your lived experience to that or you good?

[Josh Gilbert]

I don't typically. I mean, I kind of am young enough that most music was streamable by the time I was, like, in college, at least. Or not college, the time I could have gone to college. And I. So I didn't pirate too much of it. I heard, like, Reliant K talk about it in a song and I felt like, convicted to not do it. And I. I had a huge CD collection, so I, like, loved buying shit. But the only thing I've been doing lately like that is I've been streaming the NBA and some NFL games illegally.

[Dan Koch]

From a link to spending a hundred dollars a month on cable. Yeah, yeah.

[Josh Gilbert]

And that doesn't feel good. But $100 a month, like $3 a

[Tony Jones]

day off of watching that also. That's bullshit. You can't do that. You don't get to decide whether it's ethically fine to steal something based on how much it costs. It does not matter. That is an absolute principle. That it's not a sliding scale based on how much something costs makes it. Because on that way of thinking, you'd be like, well, there's a million dollars in the bank. So, I mean, I guess I could rob the bank. I'm not gonna, like, rob the Dairy Queen because They've only got $10,000 in the cash register. I'm gonna rob the place that's got a million dollars. That is. No, sure, you can't. As somebody who writes books and has them, all my books are on pirated websites in Russia. And as somebody who's going to get 13 cents from anthropic because they scraped all my book content and are using it. No, that is. You're stealing. You're stealing. You may not like it. It's a corporation, or it's cost too much or whatever, but you're stealing. I mean, you're stealing something.

[Josh Gilbert]

So, yeah, take that. Mason. Mason.

[Dan Koch]

Fuck You, Mason, you're not coming back on the pod.

[Josh Gilbert]

He's the one that sent it to me.

[Dan Koch]

This was all about Mason, right? That's what we were just getting mad at me.

[Josh Gilbert]

Yeah. Mason, steal.

[Dan Koch]

Did I understand this correctly?

[Josh Gilbert]

To make sure that it's good.

[Dan Koch]

You actually did it because you're concerned about Mason and you wanted to kind of understand what he was experiencing?

[Josh Gilbert]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Participant]

Damn.

[Dan Koch]

We're talking about Mason Meninga, by the way, from the religion on the news segments, dear listeners. Yeah, it's stealing. Yeah, that's fine. I'm not saying it's good or right. I'm just expressing that I understand where he's coming from. That's all. Just being empathic. Did Gen X learn that? Did you guys learn to be empathic, Tony? Or did you really, in your moral development?

[Josh Gilbert]

Okay, wait, that's kind of. I need to know, Tony. How far does that extend for you? Like, have you never stolen something? Or if you have, do you feel terrible about it?

[Tony Jones]

I cannot think of anything that I've stolen. I'm not saying I've never done anything wrong or I've never, you know, cheated or lied or whatever. But, no, I don't. I was never. I never, like, stole music from. What was it? What was. What was that? Early.

[Dan Koch]

Napster.

[Tony Jones]

Napster? I didn't do Napster. You know, I didn't. Never did that stuff.

[Dan Koch]

Yeah, well, during. You know, during this era, I was in a band. That was my job. We put out records. So I probably was more aware of it. But actually, you know what you reminded me of when you just sort of laid into us like that? Bareback, with no warning. We used to cheat the merch fees. So this is. And I do think that this is a bit of a predatory practice that venues will often do, especially with smaller bands. They will be like, well, whatever you sell here today, because you're at our venue, we get 20% of it. Usually it was about 20%. Something like that. And if you're the headliner and they're paying you $10,000 guarantee to be there, and you're going to sell $4,000, $5,000 of merchant, and they're going to take 1,000 of it, and that's kind of how they buffer their. You know, that gets worked into the math. I get it. I think it's like. I think it's unethical for the smaller bands who are getting paid $200 to be there, and then you might charge them more than you paid them in a merch percentage. Now, technically, you you theoretically could negotiate this, but if you are supporting the headliner and you have accepted their tour, you don't really have a seat at the negotiating table with these venues. And so there were ways of getting around it. And, like, I didn't like doing it, but at some point, Nate, our singer, he. I was like, okay, fine, we'll start cheating these. These fees. And, you know, you just find.

[Tony Jones]

So you underreported how much.

[Dan Koch]

You underreport your sales.

[Unidentified Participant]

Yes.

[Dan Koch]

And. And so just hold on. So then one day, our keyboardist Mikey. His wonderful wife Beth. I think they were just dating at the time. They weren't married yet, but she was on tour with us and doing merch, and she just looked at us all. She's like, you're all cheating. You're all stealing.

[Tony Jones]

I like that.

[Dan Koch]

You can tell yourself whatever you want to tell yourself, but you are breaking the rule, and you're stealing, and you're lying. And there was, like, a. There was a lowercase.

[Tony Jones]

Did you say you brought that ados bareback with no warning? Did you say that to her?

[Unidentified Participant]

I didn't.

[Tony Jones]

Like, you just said to me, no,

[Dan Koch]

no, I didn't even have. I didn't make bareback jokes back then.

[Tony Jones]

Oh, I see.

[Dan Koch]

Oh, no. What's the word I'm looking for? Raw dog. You just raw dogged us with that. That's the new. That's the one I meant to go.

[Tony Jones]

That is not raw dogging. Go on.

[Dan Koch]

That's what I used to think raw dogging was until the airport, you know, doing a flight with no interesting diverting material. Anyway, so that was like a tough. It's like a moment seared in my memory. It was like a. A sort of an ethical call to action. And I did wind up eventually thanking her for that, but I was not. I was not, like, stoked in the moment.

[Tony Jones]

Well, what do you think of, like, hypothetically, let's say a blues band goes into a country in western bar, and they play a couple sets behind the chicken wire, and they end up drinking more beer than they. Than the gig money that they played that they made from playing. And then they come up to them and they say, you actually drank more beer. You owe us. And, oh, we thought the beers were free. We're just gonna go out to our car and get the checkbook, and then we'll come back in and pay you. And then they get in their car and drive away.

[Dan Koch]

I think what would complicate that is I'm not a lawyer, but my guess is that you're not Allowed to do that as a venue like that, that's probably considered exploitative. You cannot actually make the band like.

[Tony Jones]

Because when Jake and Elwood Blues did that.

[Dan Koch]

I know when Jake. I thought that it was a Blues Brothers reference.

[Tony Jones]

Well, maybe your listeners didn't. So I had to make it explicit enough.

[Dan Koch]

Yeah. I was like, chicken wire. I know where this is from. So the Strokes, I think, are like a top 10 rock band of all time for me.

[Unidentified Participant]

What?

[Dan Koch]

They are having a renaissance right now, in your mind. No, no. They headlined Coachella. They are having a renaissance. They are headlining massive festivals around the world. They're sort of back Capital B. And in part, that is on the strength of their 2020 album that they did with Rick Rubin. And they have a new one that either just came out or is coming out soon. And that 2020 record is incredible. It is like, no skips and it is like the height of their powers. And it's caused me all like, the. I think just seeing Instagram clips and stuff with the new record coming out and these headline sets and stuff, maybe YouTube, etc. Just kind of got me back into it. And I've just. I've just been going back through, including records of theirs that I had kind of skipped because I was, like, not in the mood when they came out or didn't get them. And they are just like. They just. They just found a little. They found their own little spot in a way where it is. They are influenced by so many of the older rock bands that I love. You know, Velvet Underground and early rock and roll, Chuck Berry type stuff. But then also this detached, you know, New York thing and some of the post punk and like, early punk stuff and. And, like, it just. All of it still works for me. 10 out of 10. It's like a timeless take on rock music. And I just have been. I've just been loving rediscovering the Strokes. That's my item.

[Unidentified Participant]

It's also.

[Dan Koch]

I thought it's very millennial of me, right? Like, that record came out when I was young.

[Tony Jones]

Oh, my gosh.

[Dan Koch]

So it's like generationally, it's like. Well, yeah, I'm like, returning to music of college.

[Tony Jones]

I've been listening to a ton of. I've basically all the time in the car now or when I'm working out. I'm listening to Classic rewind on Sirius XM, which is like the second generation of rock, you know, 80s rock.

[Dan Koch]

Yeah.

[Tony Jones]

And that is like, for me, of course, that was. I graduated from high school in 86, so that is right in the strike zone. And I'm getting a ton. I can't stop watching. Videos shot from the crowd of the opening night of the Rush 50 Something Tour with Annika Niles playing drums. I mean, I just.

[Dan Koch]

Did Neil Peart pass away the drummer of Rush?

[Josh Gilbert]

Or he's.

[Tony Jones]

Oh, yeah, he died like 10 years ago.

[Dan Koch]

Okay. 10 years ago.

[Tony Jones]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So they haven't been. They haven't played. They haven't been on tour in 10 years. And I've got to figure out a way to get to one of those shows, you know?

[Dan Koch]

Yeah. Josh, do you have a relationship with the Strokes?

[Josh Gilbert]

No.

[Dan Koch]

You were like not at all seven or eight or something when that first record came out. It was definitely before your time.

[Josh Gilbert]

I was just googling to see if I know anything. But no, I'm sure I know songs that I don't know the names of. But.

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[Unidentified Participant]

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[Tony Jones]

So order more pizza.

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The math demands it.

[Dan Koch]

Get the Venmo debit card.

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[Dan Koch]

Okay, well I wanted to share with you guys. We'll do one more item before we cross the Rubicon into Patreon only realm. And Tony, your pop culture item of the first of the Border trilogy, All the Pretty horses by Cormac McCarthy is a perfect example of this thing I'm about to explain to you. So I started a book club. I started an in person analog, not a podcast. The book club in Bellingham and I have a name for it and I coined a term and we are organizing the book club around this term. The term is dude lit and the two words the dude stands for or is gesturing at the content. You know, the plot, the themes, the like what happens in the book, the subject matter. It's gotta be dude oriented. So this is fairly flexible. But think war, crime, substance use, gambling, violence or any other kind of fighting, espionage, right? Like the kind of, the kind of things that like if a movie studio is is aiming a film at a male audience, the kind of stuff that they would put in It. Right. And then lit refers to the quality of the writing. It needs to be literary level of writing. So a John Grisham novel about a courtroom convicting a murderer, great. That's. Dude. But it's not lit. Like, John Grisham does not write literature. He writes easy reading, plot focused. It's Clive Cussler. You're. You're kind of like beach or airport reads.

[Tony Jones]

It's called genre fiction.

[Dan Koch]

Genre fiction. Right. Although. But there is elevated genre fiction. You know, you got your grand.

[Tony Jones]

It's called upmarket.

[Dan Koch]

Okay, so up there's three levels and not.

[Tony Jones]

There's three levels in fiction.

[Dan Koch]

Oh, good.

[Tony Jones]

The top level is called literary fiction. That's what wins the Booker or the Pulitzer, the National book award. Cormac McCarthy.

[Josh Gilbert]

Okay.

[Dan Koch]

Yeah.

[Tony Jones]

Then there's. Then there's commercial fiction, which you're talking about. It's Dan Brown. It's John Grisham.

[Dan Koch]

Yeah.

[Tony Jones]

It's detective. It's like they. Because it falls into a genre either it's a mystery, it's a thriller, it's horror. And, you know, Stephen King might be. For the most part, he's considered genre fiction. But then there's upmarket, which is the middle ground. Like, that's what I write. That's what I'm trying to write. That's the middle ground between genre fiction and literary fiction. And so it has literary elements to it. So this is gonna be a big challenge for you guys. Like, does Stephen King, who's considered like, upmarket horror, does that pass the test? Is it literary enough to make it into your book club?

[Dan Koch]

Yeah, we haven't had a test like that yet. I mean, we're on our second book, so it's. You know, we may have to figure that out. But basically, like, the way that I'm resolving that for the time being is I'm just giving them three books to vote on each time. And then we just read the one that people vote on. So I sort of vet them and go, okay, this feels good enough to me, and whatever, and try and give some options. So we had our first meeting and we read a lesser known western novel called Butcher's Crossing by John Williams. And it was fucking so good. The book for me was like a 10 out of 10. And the book club was a 10 out of 10.

[Google Chrome Announcer]

For me.

[Dan Koch]

It was like, we're just hanging out, talking about this wonderful book. It's bringing up all these interesting things for people. It was just like a perfect evening. I'm like, oh, it can't keep living up to that. Like it was one of those things. And right now we're reading F. Scott Fitzgerald, Tender is the Night, which is. Is definitely literature. It's borderline dude, but it's got like, you know, talented Mr. Ripley kind of con man type vibes. Maybe a beautiful actress, sort of on a long, slow decline. Maybe she'll die at the end. I don't know. I haven't read it, but so there's like some. There's enough kind of darkness, but it's like American expats in France in the 20s, which is also just sort of like an era of literature. You know, him, Hemingway, Graham Greene, that whole. I know he's British, but that kind of mid century expat vibe. I love so many of those novels as well. That's just kind of like my home, my literary home. But I am just loving doing this book club and having this excuse to have to be working through one of these books. And I also am curious what you think, either of you, about this dude lit category or sort of approach. Like, does that resonate with you at all? Is that like, oh, that's not the kind of stuff I tend to be into. By the way, anything about the Roman Empire automatically counts as dude, just so you know.

[Tony Jones]

Well, my first Roman Empire novel is gonna be coming out in the next month or so, so you guys can read it if you want.

[Dan Koch]

Oh, shit.

[Tony Jones]

Yeah, it's funny, Dan, before you even texted this to us, like, my substack post this week is about this. It's called like, it's called Dudes who Read. That's the title.

[Commercial Announcer]

How.

[Dan Koch]

Look at that.

[Tony Jones]

Yeah, the subtitle is like the last, you know, the last of a tribe or whatever.

[Dan Koch]

You would frame it that way.

[Tony Jones]

Here's why. Here's. Well, because.

[Dan Koch]

You cynical Gen Xer.

[Tony Jones]

Well, no, here's. Dude, here's why. Because I'm an author and I'm constantly reading about the publishing industry and like you look at the graphs of the number of dudes who read books and it is like tanking. The number of American men who read books is tanking. Including my sons. Like nobody. Men don't read books anymore. I mean, women read less. Fewer books. Women read fewer books than they used to, but still, women still read American. Women still read American men. It's so fucking depressing how few books American men read. But the reason I'm writing this is cause it occurred to me that I have several friends. I mean, some are friends like I never even talk to. They're just people I text with. But there's another guy I do like once a week, a buddy who lives a few blocks away. Tim and I meet at 4:20 for a dog walk. And we mainly talk about, like, what books we're reading. And we both read. You know, we're both like, read a

[Dan Koch]

book a week kind of. We're not just gonna skate past that. You meet at 4:20?

[Tony Jones]

Well, ha ha ha. Of course. That's our funny stick.

[Dan Koch]

Do you take a puff and start?

[Tony Jones]

Okay, take a little rip. Take a little rip.

[Dan Koch]

Okay, let's just.

[Tony Jones]

If you did take a dog walk and. Yeah, I know that might be weird. Why would we meet at 4:20 if we didn't? And so we're. Yeah, we're talking walk the dog while

[Dan Koch]

you walk the dog. You know what I'm saying? Let it get out there.

[Tony Jones]

So we. Yeah, we talk about books. And we're constantly texting each other books. And then I've got other guys. I've got several other guys. And I was thinking about this too, because this. I teach that. I was just on a canoe trip with my doctor of ministry students from Fuller Seminary last week, and next year when we meet, the whole theme of the class is film and fiction. And they will watch 12 films and read 12 novels. And some of these novels are very. I told them, like, while we were canoeing, you know, I said, look, if you're like, sensitive about some content or you're gonna be a pietist about this, this is really gonna be challenging to you because we're giving you novels that are. You know, there's some stuff that you're. As evangelical Christians, you're not used to reading.

[Dan Koch]

So the point is, can I audit this class? Is that available to me?

[Tony Jones]

No, but I can send you the. I can send you the syllabus from the last time.

[Dan Koch]

Send me your syllabus.

[Tony Jones]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, from the last time we taught it. So you can see, we pair. We pair it like. So, for instance, there's a theme. And the theme will be, like, the slipperiness of memory and narrative.

[Dan Koch]

Okay.

[Tony Jones]

And of course, the subtle thing is, like, how. How reliable are the Gospels? This is the underlying question. But the film. The film is Memento and the book is the Things They Carried, both of which have these, like, postmodern storytelling schemes in them that make you really question the narrator. Like, how reliable is the narrator in both of these cultural artifacts? And so that. That's the kind of thing that we do and then apply it to your, you know, biblical hermeneutic or whatever. So, yeah, I'm. I love it. I think.

[Dan Koch]

I think, by the way, that's the Tim o' Brien Vietnam book, the Things They Carried.

[Coffee Announcer]

Oh, yeah.

[Tony Jones]

One of the greatest books of all time. I, I. But the only bone I would pick is I, I would not put F. Scott Fitzgerald into the dude category.

[Dan Koch]

It was.

[Unidentified Participant]

I.

[Dan Koch]

It'll probably be. It'll probably be the. If I could say it metaphorically, this will be the highest thread count of sheets that we lie in. This will be the probably that. The upper end. Yeah, yeah. I'm finding myself kind of wishing we were reading Hemingway instead right now. So I do think F. Scott Fitzgerald will be the kind of highest thread count sheets we lie in. He will be the upper limit of, like, like, equally for men and women or, you know, kind of like. Whereas Butcher's Crossing, like, some basic plot points. It's like a guy reads Emerson at Harvard college kid leaves Harvard to go out to the Colorado territories in the 1800s to, like, find himself in nature and ends up on a just insane buffalo hunt. And it's like the dark heart of America and, you know, the destruction of the buffalo species or the populations, you know, in America as well as, like, just a ton of wonderful kind of Western tropes and, you know, like, it's like you read 20 pages and you check if there is dirt under your fingernails. Like, is that kind of a book? And this is considerably more mannered and European and whatever. But there is, like a. There's a real darkness undercurrent. Like, a real dark undercurrent that I think is. Is, like, just enough.

[Tony Jones]

Yeah, but, dude, there's. There's dark. There's dark undercurrents in chick lit, you know, and.

[Dan Koch]

Yeah, yeah, that doesn't mean.

[Tony Jones]

That doesn't make it a masculine type of book.

[Dan Koch]

No, but if it ends up being kind of. And, like, people who have read Tender is the Night are like, dan, you don't know. You don't know. I've never read it. But if it ends up as sort of like a con man murder type of a thing, then that would satisfy my kind of basic category there. The thing is, I don't know if that's where it's going. And I tried not to, like, read the whole plot while deciding. So, okay, maybe I took a little liberties, but everybody voted for it. So if they wanted to read it, that's fine. And we will live and learn.

[Tony Jones]

I mean, you took liberties on the second book of the book club. It's.

[Dan Koch]

I know, I know. And I kind of Thought you would.

[Tony Jones]

Start strong, buddy. Start strong.

[Dan Koch]

Dude, I came out. We came out of the gate 10 out of 10, so. All right, well, let's.

[Tony Jones]

You gotta put a Western by Oakley hall on that. He's a great.

[Dan Koch]

He was a great one. You're thinking of starts with a W.

[Tony Jones]

He was a great west coast writer. He taught writing in. At like the University of San Francisco or something and. Or in Berkeley and he wrote some westerns and.

[Dan Koch]

Yeah, Warlock. Warlock, I'm thinking of. I have. I have a copy of that and I've not read it. That would be a strong candidate. We've also talked about McCarthy. We talked about doing Blood Meridian maybe. I think his on the list. You know, Hemingway. Everything Hemingway wrote basically is on the list. There's a lot to choose from.

[Tony Jones]

Deliverance. Deliverance.

[Dan Koch]

Deliverance, one of the great novels on tour. James Dickey, that, by the way, that would turn some. That would. In a Fuller Seminary cohort, maybe blush some cheeks.

[Tony Jones]

You know that I had him read Ocean Vong last time and that. That. I don't know if you guys have read no book, but. Yeah, that. That rolled up some socks for sure.

[Dan Koch]

Yeah, I do think there's like. I'm really excited about it. I'm excited about it personally, just in my life. Oh, I was going to. I was going to respond to your thing about men reading. I'll tell you this. I shared this. I invited maybe 12 friends locally and nine of them said yes, read the whole book and showed up stoked to talk about it. And a lot of them said, this is my first book club I've ever been in. Many people said, I would like to get back into reading. Only a couple of the people in the group and I would exempt myself. I've rediscovered fiction this year, but only two of the nine guys have been regularly reading a lot of fiction over the last few years. It's sort of an invitation to the rest of us and every, like, to a man. It was like, this is like great. Like, this is. This feels good. It's like something that I've been missing maybe or, you know, some version of that from basically everybody. Even if the book was fine for them, it was like it was worthwhile. And I really think there is something there. And I am open to the idea of eventually doing something maybe more podcast like, or whatever around this idea because I just think, like to encourage guys to engage with art that is like, you know, kind of aimed at them. There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with watching Heat. You know, Michael Mann made Heat mostly for dudes. Women can love it, too, but, like, yeah, it's Heat. It's like a great guy film, and it's also a great film, and that those can exist side by side and we can enjoy that shit. Just like we say. I'm listening to punk rock today, and you don't have to listen to soul. You can just do that, you know, and it's like. Anyway, I. I've got a lot of fire around it. You can probably hear that in my voice. So I'm. I'm pretty excited about what. What that may eventually.

[Tony Jones]

What if. What if you did it but didn't turn it into a podcast?

[Dan Koch]

I know. That's the other thought I've had. I'm holding on.

[Tony Jones]

I'm not doing anything serious. What if you just did it and you actually never talked about it again publicly? You just did it?

[Dan Koch]

Well, I did think this would be a good place to talk about it. This is.

[Josh Gilbert]

I'm just saying. I'm just saying.

[Dan Koch]

But, yeah, no, I did have that thought, too. I've had that thought. Tony has been arguing for me to quit podcasting, basically.

[Tony Jones]

Oh, my God. No, I haven't.

[Dan Koch]

You are running a proxy campaign. No.

[Tony Jones]

Am I.

[Dan Koch]

Through who? You are running through yourself and then through conversations with Josh. You're running a covert proxy campaign to get me off the mic, to force me off the pedestal.

[Tony Jones]

Oh, my gosh, you're so funny. It's the exact opposite.

[Dan Koch]

That's a joke.

[Tony Jones]

Yeah.

[Josh Gilbert]

We'll be back after this break. Or will we? Maybe. Or will we?

[Dan Koch]

Okay, well, we will. We're going to switch over to the Patreon half, so everybody who's been with us thus far, thank you for listening. If you want to hear the rest of our conversation, we're going to talk about soccer. World Cup. We might talk about selling out. We might talk about soccer. Down syndrome.

[Tony Jones]

Sleepy.

[Dan Koch]

Yeah. You piece of shit. We might talk about down syndrome and pregnancy if we want to get kind of heavy. So, yeah. Join [e-mail] Dan Koch if that sounds good to you.