When Theater Kids go to Youth Group (#401)

Summary

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Religion on the Mind with Dan Koch

Episode 401: When Theater Kids Go to Youth Group

Date: May 21, 2026
Guest: Jordan Morris (comedian, writer, co-host of “Jordan Jesse Go,” creator of Bubble and Youth Group)
Main Theme: Exploring the intersection of youth group culture, adolescence, pop-punk/DIY scenes, and nuanced portrayals of faith, filtered through Jordan Morris’s lived experience and his latest graphic novel, Youth Group.

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Episode Overview

In this lively conversation, host Dr. Dan Koch and guest Jordan Morris dig into their shared roots in California youth group culture, the draw of punk and ska, and how adolescence, comedy, and faith interplay. With an emphasis on Morris’s new graphic novel Youth Group, the episode explores why youth group settings are such fertile ground for storytelling, the DIY energy of 90s all-ages culture, the complicated emotional landscape of faith for teens, and the lasting effects of those formative years.

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Key Topics and Discussion Points

1. The Cultural “Soup” of Youth Group

• Jordan’s Background:
  • Grew up in Orange County, CA, attending what he calls “goofy” Bible studies with youth pastors in flip flops who “rap to you about a pretty cool guy named JC who was honestly, kind of punk rock, if you think about it.” (03:01)
• Why Write About It?
  • “It's just a cool soup of stuff, of, like, interesting stuff. It's like teen feelings, religious feelings. Maybe you're feeling some shame around the religion... Maybe you're getting excited about something for the first time in your life. Maybe you're, like, feeling like you belong for the first time in your life... purely the setting has a lot of, like, interesting things going on.” (03:33–04:58)
• Intent for Youth Group:
  • Wanted to break the pop culture mold of broad, mocking religious portrayals and instead focus on nuance, complexity, and the genuine emotional stakes of adolescence in faith spaces. (04:32)

2. Creative Parallel Lives and DIY Vibes

• Dan’s Podcast Ideas & “Great Minds”:
  • Both mention the creative overflow of ideas (“my list is 229 items long,” 05:32) and the long tail of projects they hope to realize in their lifetimes.
• Parallel Podcasting:
  • Jordan co-hosts “Free with Ads,” a podcast about streaming oddities, mirroring an idea Dan had independently. (06:40–08:06)
• Shared Love for Pop-Punk/Ska:
  • Both were deeply influenced by bands like MXPX, Five Iron Frenzy, and OC Supertones, bonding over the enduring emotional importance of these acts and the culture surrounding them.
  • “Just a little, little bit embarrassed as to how actually important MXPX has been in my life and development…” —Dan (09:16)

3. The California Youth Group Experience

• Parental Rules and Pop Culture:
  • Both Dan and Jordan avoided excessively restrictive “Christian only” media environments, allowed secular influences, and reminisce about which shows/bands were allowed or forbidden.
  • Jordan: “My parents were very nice. We didn't have a lot of, like, pop culture bans in our house... a lot of the, like youth group kids I know couldn't watch the Simpsons, but we watched the Simpsons.” (12:26)
• Mega-Church & Small Church Life:
  • Jordan’s family “bounced around,” experiencing both mega-churches (like Saddleback, with Rick Warren) and smaller venues, all featuring the “rock and roll worship band,” sandaled/guitar-wielding youth pastors. (14:49–16:23)

4. Faith, Identity, and Nuanced Characterization

• All-In Adolescence:
  • “I was definitely all in... the genius of those places is that they really made it seem chill. This ain't your daddy's church. This is a cool place where cool kids get together and rap about JC. And... I totally bought that.” (18:40–20:35)
• Punk/DIY/Drama Club Overlaps:
  • Both the music scene and theater were, for Morris, forms of adolescent agency, expression, and belonging.
  • “If you were like a church assembling demon fighters, you would want them to be young and enthusiastic...” (20:38)
  • “There's so many versions of that. Like, there's the youth group version, but like drama club was also kind of that to me... At lunchtime, we all like hung out. We went to Denny's and ordered one thing of fries and sat there all night. And that's a real ‘we're all putting on a show gang, aren't we?’ Great, we're all gonna be famous someday kind of vibe.” (38:22–39:49)
• Why Not Punching Down?
  • Dan notices that in Youth Group Morris refuses to turn even “easy targets” (like the bubbly blonde youth leader) into simple punchlines or villains. Instead, the book displays nuance and affection for everyone, regardless of belief, including the “reluctant” main character.
  • “I wanted to make them not evil... I just wanted to tell a story about people from different faiths who have this common goal, defeating demons who kind of, you know, they figure out where they can come together…” (23:58–25:22)
• What Stuck from Christianity:
  • “The values that attracted me to Christianity were the, like, love your neighbor stuff, help the poor, shelter the immigrants… That is why there are people who got into Christianity and punk rock in the same time. Right. There's a kind of like, help your neighbor, lift them up, we're all together in this.” (25:46–26:41)

5. Faith Transitions & Family of Origin

• Jordan’s Religious Journey:
  • “There was a point in high school where I was all in on the stuff, and I kind of, like, kept being all in a little bit into college... You go away to college, you start to fall away from it, and you get more ideas and some of it sticks and some of it doesn't.” (21:49–22:17)
  • Family: His dad as a “far off, hard to pin down, unknowable man” (29:17), with a hippie-to-religious trajectory; his mom as gently supportive, “if you want to go to church, we'll go; if not, that's fine.” (29:44)
  • Grateful for not experiencing religious trauma or spiritual abuse, and “realizing how much religion fucked people up as kids… And I just feel for the people who did. I really do. But yeah, I got to have a nicer, more understanding version of it and I'm lucky.” (30:44–31:16)

6. Spiritual Abuse and Religion’s Mixed Legacy

• Dan’s Perspective:
  • As a therapist/researcher specializing in spiritual abuse, Dan acknowledges both the hurtful and helpful aspects of religion: “I am the guy who gets that... but I'm also kind of known... as a guy who's very vocal about the benefits of religion for the average person... the pro-social benefits and friendship and the buffer for risky behaviors and the sources of meaning and values congruence and all that stuff.” (31:46–32:49)

7. DIY, Agency, and the All Ages Scene

• The Power of Agency:
  • “One of the benefits of both the youth group experience, but I would say also the local community center, like all ages show, you know, DIY scene was sort of a place for teenagers to exercise agency and try out.” —Dan (38:22)
  • “That that's totally a big part of it. And I think that's, you know, that's kind of like baked into Youth Group a little bit too is it's teens on their own doing stuff. It's killing demons in this situation. But it is like they are a little crew of, you know, kids who are. Who have taken on a project.” —Jordan (38:22)
• The Safe Space Angle:
  • Why church shows were especially attractive: “I think a part of why I was so drawn to like youth group as social situation is cause I was a coward. I think I was so afraid of sex and drinking and drugs... I just felt so safe in a Social situation where I knew that I wasn't gonna be pressured into drinking and drugs and sex.” (41:18)

8. Identity, Zeal, and the Punk/Christian Crossover

• Straight Edge and Purity Culture:
  • Dan draws parallels between Straight Edge culture and purity culture: “I kind of think of it as like... the stuff that was very black and white that I was drawn to as A teenager in my youth group experience is akin to Straight Edge. Like, purity culture is not that different than straight edge.” (44:35)
  • “What is an X on your hand but a cross turned sideways?” —Jordan (44:51)

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Youth Pastors:
  • “He'd turn the chair around backwards and he'd rap to you about a pretty cool guy named JC who was honestly, kind of punk rock, if you think about it.” —Jordan (02:59)
• On the Attraction of Youth Group:
  • “The genius of those places is that they really made it seem chill... This ain't your daddy's church.” —Jordan (19:46)
• On Religious Nuance in Storytelling:
  • “I wanted to make [religious characters] not evil... they're often misguided, but I didn't want to make them evil.” —Jordan (23:58)
• On Religion’s Prosocial Effects:
  • “The benefits really are there... sources of meaning and values congruence and all that stuff...” —Dan (32:49)
• On Safe Spaces for Teens:
  • “I just felt so safe in a Social situation where I knew I wasn't gonna be pressured into drinking and drugs and sex.” —Jordan (41:18)
• On Youthful Zeal:
  • “When you're young, you're a zealot for whatever it is…That's why the young would make such good demon fighters. They just believe it.” —Jordan (44:58)

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Timeline / Timestamps for Notable Segments

• [02:04–04:58] — Introduction and Jordan's motivation for writing Youth Group
• [06:40–08:06] — Discussing "Free With Ads" & creativity
• [08:45–11:11] — Bonding over pop punk & ska roots in youth group
• [12:26–14:58] — Parental rules, pop culture, and religious backgrounds
• [14:49–16:23] — Mega-church and small church in Orange County
• [18:40–20:38] — Full religious buy-in and youth group dynamics
• [23:58–26:41] — On nuanced storytelling and what drew them to faith/punk
• [29:14–31:16] — Jordan’s parents, family religious culture, and gratitude for positive upbringing
• [31:46–32:49] — Spiritual abuse, the mixed legacy of religion
• [38:22–39:49] — DIY scene and parallels between drama/music and youth group agency
• [41:18–43:19] — On safe, chaste, “straight edge” environments in youth group/culture
• [44:35–44:58] — Parallels between purity and straight-edge culture, youthful zeal

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Episode Tone and Takeaways

The episode is heartfelt, humorous, and reflective, packed with nostalgia for 90s California youth group and music culture. Both Dan and Jordan balance a love for what those formative years offered—friendship, DIY empowerment, genuine (if sometimes naïve) zeal—with a clear-eyed awareness of the potential downsides of religious subcultures. For listeners who grew up in or are curious about the intersection of youth group, punk/DIY scenes, and adolescent identity, this episode teems with references, relatable moments, and thoughtful commentary on how formative those spaces can be—for better and worse.

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Transcript

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[Dr. Dan Koch]

Welcome everybody to Religion on the Mind, the podcast that explores the overlap of psychology and religion and spirituality. I'm your host, Dr. Dan Koch, licensed therapist and occasional spiritual abuse researcher. My guest today. This is going to be a fun one. Jordan Morris is a comedian, writer and and podcaster best known as the co host of Jordan Jesse Go on the Max Fun Network and creator of the acclaimed sci fi comedy graphic novel Bubble. His latest work, Also a graphic novel youth group, is where I found his work and it blends dark humor and supernatural adventure to explore the strange overlaps between adolescence, faith and friendship. Indeed, it takes place during you youth group where adolescents faith and friendship are in their most potent mixture. Perhaps at any point in our lives, would you say, Jordan?

[Jordan Morris]

Yeah. No. Thank you for having me. Great to be here. And I think that's a. That's a good observation. I think that's definitely something I was thinking a lot about when, you know, coming up with youth group is like, you know, so I was one of. I was a youth group kid. I grew up going to a, you know, very goofy Bible study in Orange County, California, where the, you know, youth pastor wore flip flops, and he'd turn the chair around backwards and he'd rap to you about a pretty cool guy named JC who was honestly, kind of punk rock, if you think about it.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Yeah.

[Jordan Morris]

And I, you know, I had always wanted to write about this. It always seemed like such a strange, like, funny, fraught world. And I never saw anybody get it right in pop culture or never saw anybody, like, represented in pop culture with any, like, nuance. It was all just kind of a broad, sketchy joke about, like, goofball religious people. And so I always just kind of had it in the back of my head, like, maybe I'll write about a youth group sometime. Maybe I'll write about a youth group sometimes. And, like, I think the thing that kept me chewing on the idea. Cause, you know, when you're a creative person, you have a lot of ideas. Some of them get made into things and some of them just leave your brain. And I think the thing that kept me chewing on it is that exact thing you mentioned is like, it's just a cool soup of stuff, of, like, interesting stuff. It's like teen feelings, religious feelings. Maybe you're feeling some shame around the religion. Maybe you're getting excited about something for the first time in your life. Maybe you're, like, feeling like you belong for the first time in your life. It just seemed, like, interesting. And so, you know, I think that's a big part of why I wanted to write about it is it just does seem like the setting, just purely the setting has a lot of, like, interesting things going on.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

I think you're right. I think we're gonna probably spend most of our conversation today kind of talking about questions associated with youth group with that latest graphic novel, including much of what you were just saying. But I wanted to do a little just kind of fun stuff on the top before we get into that. And so speaking of what you said, which is creative people have so many ideas. So I've said many times on the show before that I have a list. I have a notes, like a notebook in Evernote called Book Podcast Ideas So these are each ideas for full books or podcast series.

[Jordan Morris]

Okay.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Occasionally some of them have worked as miniseries or whatever, but that list is 229 items long currently.

[Jordan Morris]

Okay.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

And one of them.

[Jordan Morris]

It's crazy that you're going to get to all of them. You're going to make all of.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Isn't that wild?

[Jordan Morris]

You're going to be.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

So I actually, I am here to announce that I will be living to 263 years of age and I will get to all of these.

[Jordan Morris]

Yeah, congratulations. That is so cool.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

But one of them, one of those ideas, I don't want to downplay that. The fact that there are so many. I didn't mean to infer that. But one of them is called Literally Free with Ads. And the idea was to do a movie focused podcast of only movies that you could basically get, you know, with ads. Or maybe we would count Netflix or something like that without the kind of everybody has. The idea was like, hey, there's a lot of great films that are out there and it's a way for people to not spend a bunch of money. And hey, maybe they'll give you five bucks a month of that money for you helping them save all this money. You could pitch it that way. You have made this podcast and it is called Free with Ads.

[Jordan Morris]

What the fuck? Yes. This is a fantastic. I agree with you. This is a fantastic idea. Yes. In addition to Jordan Jesse go the podcast you mentioned the chat show I do with Jesse Thorne, I do a show called Free with Ads. Your exact title.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

So good.

[Jordan Morris]

I do that with Emily Fleming and Matt Lieb. And yeah, we go on weird websites like Tubi and Zumoplay and the Roku Network and we watch a weird movie every week and we talk about it. I will mention that I will shout out the comic Emily Fleming. It was her idea. Okay. So you and she are the parallel thinkers in this situation. She just kind of like pitched it to me and I loved the idea. So, you know. Yeah, I agree. It's such a weird world of movies. I think as I paused a movie we're watching for the show to come record this. And it is the Peanut Butter Solution, a Canadian kids movie from the 80s about a kid who gets scared in a haunted house and loses all his hair and then a ghost tells him how to get it back. I have not finished the film. That is the plot up until I paused it to come do this podcast. Yeah. And I'm watching that on a hoopla, which is like a weird website that you can get with a Library card. So, yes, you are right, Dan. That's a wonderful idea for a podcast. It would have brought you fame, fortune, acclaim, like it has us.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

And no, we've had modest success, but

[Jordan Morris]

we have a lot of lovely listeners.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Well, just great minds, I guess. I'll have to. If I ever speak with Emily, I'll have to give her, have to give her the credit there. The second brief item of 2 up top. I was listening to Jordan Jesse Go and just kind of looking through recent episodes to pick one and I saw that you had had both the guitarist of pup, the Canadian punk band, and Krista Makes from Less Than Jake on your podcast in like the last few months. And I was like, whoa. I didn't think we were going to talk about our shared like ska punk background, which.

[Jordan Morris]

But sure, we can go there.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

However, we're talking about youth group and California youth group and I believe we're a similar age. I'm 42. I don't know, you're kind of roughly 43.

[Jordan Morris]

Yeah, 43. So I think we probably. If. And I'm. I'm guessing you were also a youth group kid, right?

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[Jordan Morris]

Oh yeah, You've got the vibe. Yeah.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Tried and true.

[Jordan Morris]

Yes. So I imagine maybe we, we were listening to some of the same, you know, skate punk, ska punk type bands back. Back there.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Yeah, just a little, little bit embarrassed as to how actually important MXPX has been in my life and development. You know, like I don't love. Don't love the fact that that's so true.

[Jordan Morris]

But yeah, you know, and I saw them recently. They still sound good.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Yeah, it's true.

[Jordan Morris]

Glad to know that MXPX and I think have. And I think have. Have fully rebranded as a secular band now. But they were definitely one of those talk about Jesus occasionally. And then I think they've since moved away from it. But anyway, yeah, no, we have. We have had some. I was a, you know, I was a Scott and punk kid. My co host Jesse Thorne was not, but has been nice enough to allow me to like extend invitations to some cool people from that world that have been really, really fun to talk to. Yeah, Steve from PUP was awesome, as was Chris from Less Than Jake. We've had Damien Abraham from Fucked up on the show. So it's mainly Canadian punk rockers, so. But occasional, occasional Floridian rocker from America.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Okay. So about that growing up in California, I will just say that I think it will be interesting. You know, you mentioned that this Jesus was a little bit punk rock and you know, that's like from your youth pastor or whatever down in Orange county with his rainbow sandals and his Tommy Bahama.

[Jordan Morris]

Mm, rainbows. Yep, that was the brand.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Maybe it's like a Volcom branded, you know, Hawaiian shirt that's like a little cooler. Like a ruka shirt that would have been.

[Jordan Morris]

Yeah. Aruka Volka Quicksilver. A very big brand in that world.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Did you actually. Briefly. Did you see, I posted just the other day on my Instagram that there's this thing going around about Oscar Isaac that not only was he a youth group kid, but he fronted a ska. Like a Christian ska band, apparently. And there's like some footage and they're decent. Like, pretty decent band. Like, he's a pretty good singer.

[Jordan Morris]

That's funny. I knew the ska thing, but I didn't know that they were. I didn't know the youth group thing and I didn't know they were Christian. That's pretty wild. But yes, I have seen that footage of Oscar Isaac playing ska for five people in a weird rec center.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Yeah. So this was like a tent stage of some sort. It appeared to be, but you know, he did so. So I guess it's just like, hey, it could happen for any of us. Right? Like, you could go on to play Llewyn Davis and actually do it.

[Jordan Morris]

Right. That's the dream. I would love to play Llewyn Davis.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Okay. But. So we'll probably get to some of that kind of punk stuff, because I do think it's. It sounds like it's going to be relevant to your story. Being a Orange County, Southern California youth group kid of roughly the same age as I was a Saratoga, San Jose youth group kid in Northern California. Yeah. But let's start here. Is it safe for me to assume, and now especially that I know you grew up in Southern California? Were you drawn to comedy and other pop culture, like, pretty young? Was that a thing that was sort of open to you from the beginning or did you have the, like, only Christian music, only Christian movies, like sort of the. The parental stuff around that or how did that work when you were younger?

[Jordan Morris]

Yeah, my parents were pretty lenient as far as pop culture goes. I know that there were a lot of kids who could, like, only listen to MCPX. But yeah, my parents were cool with me listening to, you know, you're less than Jake's, you're no Effects as you're Vandals, you know, some other bands in that world. My parents were very nice. We didn't have a lot of, like, pop culture bands in our house. And I think my parents were both kind of like on again, off again Christians. And for most of our lives we were like Christmas and Easter Christians. Creasters they call them. I think there's some sort of, like, that's new to me portmanteau slang for them. Anyway, so. Yeah, so we, you know, like a lot of the, like youth group kids I know couldn't watch the Simpsons, but we watched the Simpsons. We had a couple of bands in the house. One was Beavis and Butthead.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Same.

[Jordan Morris]

I think there was a lot of, like, we couldn't watch Beavis and Butthead and we couldn't watch Pee Wee. I think maybe I'm looking.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

They might have been on to something.

[Jordan Morris]

You know, I listen justice for Pee Wee. I think Peewee. Peewee was right to masturbate in that theater. Let's relitigate that. I think it was good that he did it. No, I think probably looking back, my mom was just more annoyed with him at that time. And probably like we don't watch that. But anyway, yeah, so I think those were, you know, they were very nice about like pop culture. So I feel like I did get to experience, you know, the pop culture of the 90s without too many, Too many restrictions.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Yeah. I found I also had not that many restrictions. I was allowed to listen to both Christian and secular music and watch regular TV and movies, you know, with some. Some things banned. Yeah. And usually it's for those reasons of like, that's too rude to the father figure or whatever. But like it never.

[Jordan Morris]

No back.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Exactly. It never felt like my parents really sort of full throatedly believed that. You know, my dad was a therapist. He probably wanted me to have agency and all this kind of thing and.

[Jordan Morris]

Sure.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

So I resonate with that. I do find it can be kind of fun to compare notes with the more sheltered friends that you then meet later, like in college and stuff.

[Jordan Morris]

Of course.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

So tell us a little bit more about the specific youth group experience. Like, was this a non denominational Orange county church? Like how big? How. What was the sort of production value? Like, like put us back in the time.

[Jordan Morris]

Yeah. So we bounced around a little bit. We definitely went to a few, like Orange county megachurches. Like, I think if you follow the world of mega churches, maybe Saddleback Church is a name.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Yeah. Rick Warren, Purpose Driven life. Yeah.

[Jordan Morris]

Yes. Celebrity pastor Rick Warren, definitely a pioneer of the pastor in a Hawaiian church.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

The archetype, I would say. Yeah, yeah.

[Jordan Morris]

Maybe he was the first.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

The first ones were the Jesus movement guys in the 70s. Which were also in Orange County. I do believe Rick Warren, I don't know if he came to faith in that era, but he definitely was a kid in that era and he's sort of like that next grown up generation. So I think of it as really continuous. I've done a little bit of research about that early 70s Jesus movement stuff.

[Jordan Morris]

Yeah, that would be actually kind of interesting to see how that moved into the Christianity that we know today. But yeah, it does seem like there were a lot of like ex hippies. And I think, you know, and I think my dad is kind of like that. I think he was like kind of a more hippie, liberal, free thinky guy who, you know, got a little religious in his old age. And you know, I imagine there's a lot of values that cross over into both those things. So, you know, you can kind of see how it, how it makes a little bit of sense. But yeah, so we went to a little bit of like mega church and we went to a couple of like smaller churches. I think the main youth grouping I did was at like a slightly smaller church that still had that Orange county rock and roll worship band sandaled Faster, but on just kind of a smaller scale.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Yeah, okay.

[Jordan Morris]

And they were, they were evangelical.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

I want to ask a question about like the seriousness of faith. So I, I had the great pleasure of reading about half of youth group thus far and really enjoying it. I've got some kind of more specific stuff to talk about later with, with the supernatural element there. But one thing that I notice, I think that you notice pretty immediately getting in, you know, first 10% in of the story is you are treating these characters with nuance. So there is a sense in which like the bubbly blonde skirt wearing Orange County. I don't know if it's actually taking place in Orange County. I forget. It does.

[Jordan Morris]

Yeah, it takes place in Orange county

[Dr. Dan Koch]

like this kind of like in the 90s.

[Jordan Morris]

It's a.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

That's right, that's right. 90s. That's right. So this bubbly blonde sort of youth leader, you know, I just was. It's almost like reflexively, I'm assuming you're going to kind of smear her and whatever, but she's very quickly presented as like, well, not only is she a seasoned demon hunter and like a mentor of these other demon hunters, so she's like a badass, but also you're, you're just doing with a number of characters very quickly. You're, you're sort of like saying, hey, you might think that I'm going to go a very, like, expected critical direction with each of these characters and kind of laugh at them. And you kind of keep not doing that as you introduce each character. And it makes me wonder, including the sort of main character who's there, because she has to be there, Kay. And, like, her parents are going through a divorce and. And, like, the mom believes the dad doesn't. And it's just this. It's very fraught. It's, like, very realistic, like, kind of up family dynamics that are still working themselves out. And it feels very relatable for, like, an adolescent.

[Jordan Morris]

Sure.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Like, that makes me wonder about when, during your story, did Faith ever become the kind of, like, identity center thing that. It certainly was for me and many listeners. Like, I was like, card carrying, bro. Like, I'm in it. Like, did that ever happen? Did you sort of stay a little on the sides of things or. I'm curious about that.

[Jordan Morris]

Yeah. So I was definitely all in. And I think I, you know, as I mentioned, my parents were always kind of like casual churchgoers, but I think I got, you know, kind of coaxed into the youth group, like a lot of kids, you know, by kids our age, maybe someone who was kind of attractive that we wanted to hang out with. And they're like, hey, you should come to this cool building on Sunday where me and a bunch of other. And they make it pitch is so casual. It's like, hey, we just, like, hang out and talk about what it means to be teens. And. And the punk shows were a big part of it. Like, you know, you're 12 or 13 or whatever, you're maybe aware of punk rock. You've maybe heard Green Day and the Ramones on the radio, and you, like, want to go to a show, but also, where do you go? But then the church, and they were able to, like, replicate the flyers, kind of the kind of.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Oh, the Xerox flyers, bro. I was a professional at replicating the punk rock flyers. Oh, yeah.

[Jordan Morris]

Oh, did you make the flyers for your church shows?

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Oh, yeah. For. I mean, I was in punk bands from 14 till I graduated high school and then, you know, started another one in college.

[Jordan Morris]

Absolutely.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Yeah.

[Jordan Morris]

Check it out. Yeah.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

All right.

[Jordan Morris]

Well, yeah, so, yeah, you know, the genius of those places is that they really made it seem chill. This ain't your daddy's church. This is a cool place where cool kids get together and rap about JC And. Yeah, I totally bought that. I think I probably did go to talk to a girl that I liked and. Yeah. And then I kind of got the message, and I was just like, all in. And I think, you know, and I think something I was thinking a lot about when writing youth group is that, like, you know, the premise of the book is that the kids in these goofy youth groups have to, like, actually do exorcisms and fight demons. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, this totally makes sense because you're such a zealot at that age. You know, I mean, kids get into Christianity, they get into music, they get into art.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Whatever they get into, they get into it. Yeah.

[Jordan Morris]

And you're so into it.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Yes.

[Jordan Morris]

And if you were like a church assembling demon fighters, you would want them to be young and enthusiastic. And I think that is a bigger reveal. As you read youth group, you learn that all the religions have their version of the.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Yeah, there's been a little breadcrumbing about that, which is fun. Kind of world building.

[Jordan Morris]

Yeah. Slight spoilers, but yes, I think in the world of this, they take that youthful zeal and they channel it into world saving.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Yeah.

[Jordan Morris]

A little bit of a sidetrack from your question. I don't want to talk more about the book without mentioning the great artist Bowen McGirty, who drew the book. Wonderful artists on comic books do most of the work. Bowen McGurty, a very, very talented artist who did a wonderful job. Just such beautiful, expressive characters and did so much for the. And creating those characters through their look. And as you mentioned, one of our main characters is a real stereotypical Orange county blonde. And Bowen just did such a wonderful job creating Meg and her look. And I think it just adds so much to the surprise when you learn that this, you know, someone you might think of as a stereotypical airhead is actually a deadly hunter. So, yeah, anyway, Bowen McGurty, wonderful artist, wonderful to work with.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Nice. Good to sort of credit where it's due.

[Jordan Morris]

But, yeah, to answer your question, yeah, I think there was a point in high school where I was all in on the stuff, and I kind of, like, kept being all in a little bit into college and very familiar story. You go away to college, you start to fall away from it, and you get more ideas and some of it sticks and some of it doesn't. And, yeah, that was definitely me. I definitely kind of, in college, tried to keep it part of my life, and it. I don't know, it just didn't. It didn't stick there.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

My guess is that some of it has stuck. Just like, even if you hadn't said maybe some of it stuck, some of it didn't. I would have assumed that some of it stuck in the sort of humane way that you are treating characters that in especially like an LA based comedy world where you live and work and have your being, you know, like in that world, you just think of it as like, well, we'll do Saved, you know, we'll do whatever. Like, and I love Saved. It's a very funny movie and it.

[Jordan Morris]

Me too. Saved is hilarious.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

It's probably the best, even though it's silly. Like the most accurate filmed treatment of that subculture still. And it's 20 years old or whatever.

[Jordan Morris]

Yeah, it's the closest. I still think Saved is very broad. Right? Like Saved is a broad crowd pleasing comedy. But yeah, I think maybe it's the closest. And when I talk about other pop culture that I was thinking about, Saved comes up a lot. But yeah, it's definitely like broad.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

So I was just thinking the way that you give the benefit of the doubt to each of these characters, you sort of like, you build them out in a non stereotypical way and like a less judgmental way. Like I can tell you sort of have affection for the characters that alone, you know, maybe I would have falsely assumed that like, okay, something about the teachings and the Christianity of that world at least stuck enough that you're not just soured on it that you would then be able to, even if it was like every good writer ought to do that, that you would be able to treat the characters that way and not sort of turn them into caricatures that you could throw darts at, so to speak. And so I don't know, I just thought I'd share that reflection and then kind of.

[Jordan Morris]

No, sure.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Ask you what has kind of stuck with you about it.

[Jordan Morris]

Yeah, and that's absolutely something we thought a lot about when making the book. It's like, I think you could do a version of this premise where the youth group is bad and then they're the villains. And I think sometimes when people see the book or they see the premise, they kind of think that's where it's going. And I think you could do a version of the book that is that and is good and is satirically sound. Right. But I don't know, I think we were just going for something else. And I think it was a thing where it's like the religious characters in the book, I think are often wrong and I think they're often misguided, but I didn't want to make them evil. And I know there are evil religious people or I Should say evil people who use religion to, you know, wield whatever weird cudgel they're wielding. But I just wanted to tell a story about people who, from different faiths, who have this common goal, defeating demons who kind of, you know, they figure out where they can come together and. Yeah, and I think our main character, Kay, you know, she is the kid that didn't want to be there. And that kid was in every youth group, no matter what youth group there was the kid whose parents were making them be there. They smoked clove cigarettes.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Well, we smoked clove cigarettes and wanted to be there. But yes, of course, you could have it both ways.

[Jordan Morris]

Of course. Yes. No. Yeah.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

That might have been more college age, I don't know.

[Jordan Morris]

But, yeah, so, you know, so I think I wanted to tell a different story about a bunch of different kinds of believers who come together and, you know, to do something. So, yeah, I think we had been thinking about that and yeah, I mean, I think that, like, you know, the values that attracted me to Christianity were the, like, love your neighbor stuff, help the poor, shelter the immigrants.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

You know, stuff that's going real well in mainstream American Christianity in 2025.

[Jordan Morris]

Yes. Which obviously, which Christianity stuff still believes to this day and has made it a central part of the faith. You know, I think that is why there are people who got into Christianity and punk rock in the same time. Right. There's a kind of like, help your neighbor lift them up. We're all together in this kind of thing. And I think that. That, as many may have observed, has kind of like become not what popular Christianity is all about. But I think it was the stuff that attracted me to it. And when I look back on that time in my life, I'm like, oh, that was valuable. That was helpful. I'm glad that I learned that and did that. And yeah, and I think that's. The characters in youth group too are like, learning about what of this works for me and what if it doesn't?

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[Dr. Dan Koch]

Okay. I love That I want to kind of stick with this punk rock Jesus thing for a couple more questions.

[Jordan Morris]

Oh, sure.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

The first one is, do you think that maybe the version you got from the, you know, the post hippie pastor of the punk rock, he's a little bit punk rock. Do you think that your dad had a version of that that was like, he's a little bit of a hippie? Oh, like, are those overlapped?

[Jordan Morris]

Yeah. And I don't know a lot about like the Jesus freaks or the Jesus movement or whatever, but I'm, you know, it does seem like that was part of their pitch too. Like, you know, he was barefoot and walked around with a bunch of guys and he just like, spread love, man. And it's about. Yeah, and I think that's true. Like that, you know, all of that, like, is a way to read the teachings of Christ. It is pretty hippie dippy. It is pretty liberal, you know, so. Yeah. So I can see how if you are coming from one of those worlds, hippies or punks or whatever, a lot of that Jesus love thy neighbors stuff makes a ton of sense.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Did you ever talk about that parallel, like, with your dad or mom? Like, you know, you mentioned your dad maybe had a kind of hippie thing or he's got that little post hippie culture. Like, did they ever notice that in kind of what you were. I mean, this is a lot to ask of a parent teenager conversation and not to say the memory of such a conversation, but, you know, like, did that ever come up as, like, do you think that they noticed that as an overlap of their interest and your interest?

[Jordan Morris]

You know, my dad was and is a far off, hard to pin down, unknowable man. So I am guessing at how my dad felt about all this at the time. He's, you know, we didn't have a lot of heart to hearts. He's a rambling dude. But I mean, just kind of knowing what I know about him and knowing how he went from 60s 70s kind of hippie guy to conservative religious guy, and I don't know where he's at now geographically or spiritually, I should say.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Oh, you, like, don't know where he lives?

[Jordan Morris]

Yeah, he. Oh, yeah, he's. He's, he's an. He's an off the grid, rambling man. Oh, I know.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Oh, I thought you meant rambling. Like he just sort of talks about like, maybe he has adhd.

[Jordan Morris]

Yes, that and also geographically will move.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Wow, dude, that's wild.

[Jordan Morris]

Yes. So I think he. Yeah, I would guess that he probably Got into it through that.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Yeah.

[Jordan Morris]

And my mom is a very lovely present, you know, there for us parent. And I think she's always just been very, like, casual about religion. It's like, use what you love. If it doesn't suit you, then that's okay. If you want to go to church, we'll go. If you don't want to go to church, we'll go on a walk. If you don't, you know, an amazing way to grow up. When I've been talking to people about this book, I realized, like, how much religion fucked people up as kids. Like, people who didn't have that, you know, who didn't have that understanding parent who's like, yeah, sounds good. If you want to go to church, we'll try it. If not, that's fine. And I think it's definitely why I can write about those characters in that very neutral, like, understanding way is cause I wasn't a queer kid who was told it was wrong. I wasn't. Yeah. And I think totally, we don't talk about that stuff too much in the book. We do a little bit, but it's in the background. And I understand that if you want to criticize the book for that, you totally could of, like, it doesn't deal with those cruel religious people that traumatized kids. And, you know, that stuff is very real and I like, acknowledge it and I'm so lucky I didn't have to deal with it. And I just feel for the people who did. I really do. But yeah, I got to have a nicer, more understanding version of it and I'm lucky.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Well, this conversation you're having is with the right guy because my research, I developed a scale for measuring spiritual abuse, exposure to spiritually abusive experiences and the consequences that come from them. It is in use currently in research and clinical settings. My therapeutic specialty is religious issues. So I am the guy who gets that and agrees and is. Has spent considerable time making a taxonomy of the hurts.

[Jordan Morris]

Right.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Specific ways.

[Jordan Morris]

Sure.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

The specific ways that you can be damaged by that shit. But I'm also kind of known to the extent that I'm known for anything. I'm known in this kind of post evangelical online world, for whatever that's worth. As a guy who's very vocal about the benefits of religion for the average person, I say that as someone who fully agrees with what you're saying. Like, especially people with queer sexuality. And you know, there's just like whole categories of people that are very likely to have had a pretty shitty experience. And really I Don't recommend would go to maybe the majority of churches, you know, like that kind of a thing, but for the statistically average person. And I think, you know, you get into child rearing age and you know, you're raising kids and thinking about the statistically average child and things like that, you know, the benefits really are there. And you know, listeners are bored of hearing me talk about all the pro social benefits and friendship and the. Oh yeah, the buffer for risky behaviors and the sources of meaning and values congruence and all that stuff.

[Jordan Morris]

Yes, all that's right.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

But there's one aspect of it I wanted to specifically talk about because it ties in with the punk rock Jesus stuff. So just a little more throat clearing to get there. You described going to shows at these churches. Right. So, you know, church basement shows is kind of the shorthand for it. But it's not always basements. It's usually some sort of multi purpose room that they have in the building. I grew up going to those shows. We also went to community center shows that were very similar. Like all ages. No drugs allowed, no drinking allowed, Small stages, intimate settings, you know.

[Jordan Morris]

Do you go to Gilman?

[Dr. Dan Koch]

You know, I was a little far from Gilman. I was in the South Bay. That was like a good hour away. And we would only go to the East Bay for like the rare. Like. Oh, we. We've got to go see them up there because it's a really good bill. Like we saw Mxp X and Craig's brother at the Scream and Concord, but.

[Jordan Morris]

Or like brother. I've thought about Craig's brother's brother.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Dude, Santa Cruz. His own. Well, I do want. Okay, I did want to do this really quick. I wanted to just throw. Throw out like 10 bands that I could think of because we're like the same age and it's the same state. So did you see these bands play live during the. I'm gonna start big and I'm gonna go. We're gonna get granular. Okay.

[Jordan Morris]

All right.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Okay. Number one, mxpx. Did you see him play?

[Jordan Morris]

Absolutely.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Okay, Number two, Fiverr and Frenzy.

[Jordan Morris]

Yes.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Okay.

[Jordan Morris]

I saw Fire, Fire and Friendly this year. Guess who still got it. No, me too. Still.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

They do still got it. Yeah, they were the. They were the band I saw the most growing up. I saw them like eight times before college or something.

[Jordan Morris]

Okay.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Orange County Super Tones.

[Jordan Morris]

Oh, yeah, that maybe. Was that my first line that my parents didn't take me to? It might have been. It was either them or the Mighty Mighty Boss Tones.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Oh, nice. Okay.

[Jordan Morris]

That Might have been like the same year of high school. Anyway.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Okay. Still big, but not as Christian. Real big fish, but local. Did you see them?

[Jordan Morris]

Yeah.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Okay, great.

[Jordan Morris]

Tons.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

All right, now, Now. Okay. All right. Did you see Touring through Goatie Hook?

[Jordan Morris]

I think I saw Goatie Hook. Yeah. Maybe I saw them open for. And maybe this is on the list. Maybe I saw them open for Value Pack.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Value pack was going to be like 10 or 11. I was going to maybe keep Value Pack.

[Jordan Morris]

I think Goatie Hook opened for Value Pack. Yeah.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Okay.

[Jordan Morris]

If I'm remembering one show correctly. So maybe.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Okay, good. All right, now this is a. This one goes with. This is a twofer here. Slick Shoes. Yeah, you would have seen Slick Shoes. Now would you have seen the Southern California B grade Slick shoes. Sick of change.

[Jordan Morris]

No, Sick of change. Doesn't ring a bell.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Okay. We called them. We called them Slick of Shoes. That was our joke. Okay. All right. So my buddy Ethan's band, it's not

[Jordan Morris]

like Slick Shoes were that original 82

[Dr. Dan Koch]

or MX, but it's a Christian band that sounds like another.

[Jordan Morris]

Another Christian pop punk band as opposed to a Christian band trying to sound like a specific secular band.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

It was a kind of like the wrong copy of a copy, you know, like, don't go that direction. Although I. I actually think Slick Shoes holds up incredibly well over time.

[Jordan Morris]

I haven't listened to him in a while. Yeah, I would.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

I maybe recommend.

[Jordan Morris]

Maybe I'll check some out.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Okay, I lost count. But last one, my buddy Ethan Lux old band, the Dingies. Did you see them?

[Jordan Morris]

Oh, ab. Sure I saw the Dingy.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Okay.

[Jordan Morris]

Yeah.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Hell yeah.

[Jordan Morris]

Maybe I'll. Did I know they were Christian? Did they get secular at some point?

[Dr. Dan Koch]

No, I think they were on Tooth and Nail Records. I think they were Christian. Yeah.

[Jordan Morris]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Okay, that's fun. So that was just a little side. A side tangent. But the thing that I wanted to talk about was there something that has come up for me really only in the last few years as I've been thinking about that era. And, you know, I've also been podcasting about like punk, emo and indie music more as a passion project. Another show called Pretty Good Vibrations. But it's got me thinking about this stuff. And the newer thought for me is the DIY aesthetic to it, the do it yourself aspect of these small shows. Like, let me ask you this. Had you wanted to get involved with the promotion and putting on of these bands at your church, couldn't you have gotten involved if you wanted to?

[Jordan Morris]

I probably could have, yeah. I don't think it occurred to me I had like other after school interests. Shock you. Shock you. To know that I was also in the drama club. I know your. Your gaping mouth just betrays the intense shock.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Yeah, I had to probably just wiping off this drool here. I'll tell people it's from my kid,

[Jordan Morris]

but that was just. How. How so? No, I think I. But I could, I totally could have. If I said like I wanted to like hang up flyers or try and, you know, book bands coming through, I think they probably would have let me. I am.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Well, so maybe I might have been more involved. You know, I was in bands and stuff like that through most of those years. But I have noticed how much that's stuck with me from that time. And I think podcasting is a lot of it is very diy. It's very similar to like make your record your own album, put it out, you know, kind of a thing. It's like. And I've also thought of that as connected to. So here's where I'm going to land that ship and then you can go with all of it to bring it all around. One of the benefits of both the youth group experience, but I would say also the local community center, like all ages show, you know, DIY scene was sort of a place for teenagers to exercise agency and try out.

[Jordan Morris]

Oh, sure, absolutely. Yeah, that's. That, that's totally a big part of it. And I think that's, you know, that's kind of like baked into youth group a little bit too is it's teens on their own doing stuff. It's killing demons in this situation. But it is like they are a little crew of, you know, kids who are. Who have taken on a project. Yeah. And you know, there's so many versions of that. Like there's the youth group version, but like drama club was also kind of that to me. Right. Like we stayed after school, we painted sets, we hung out in the classroom. At lunchtime, we all like hung out. We went to Denny's and ordered one thing of fries and sat there all night. And that's a real like, we're all putting on a show gang, aren't we? Great, we're all gonna be famous someday kind of vibe. And I think. Yeah, so I think you're right. I think that the youth group, like one of the positives of it is that it is like a way for teens to transition into adulthood and start doing things themselves and figure out what's interesting to you. So. Yeah. And also I think if you Were like a performing arts kid a little bit. There was a lot of that you could do. There's a lot of singing little skits. I did do some little skits. If you wanted to put on a wig and do a little skit, you could.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

I've got some ideas. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, totally. So I was just thinking that there's an overlap there with drama. So it sounds like that was more your like activity wise, that was more your involvement was in sort of drama type stuff. For me it was like rock music.

[Jordan Morris]

Right, sure.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Both of those present outlets for processing difficult emotions and experiences. Yes, I think, I mean to talk about the beginning of youth group, right. So the beginning of the graphic novel is like the main character, K. Like her parents went through a recent divorce. You know, her dad is battling the supernatural and her mom is battling the natural and trying to get her to go to church as a part of this whole thing. And it's like we just start sort of in media res with like, oh, she's in a really difficult family situation. The kind of thing that is like if someone's retelling their life and their parents split up when they were like 15 years old is going to be a very major chapter and among the most difficult chapters of their life. And you know, so they get to fight demons. That is actually a way of processing a lot of this like pain and death and you know, all these things. Right. Like to. To make it concrete, make it fightable. Then somebody reads it, spends time with it there. It's a way to process it. But with like adolescents like you doing drama. As a high schooler, me in my first few bands also the kids who loved like metal and hardcore and they could come to like a safe space with adult chaperones and no drugs around to like get that out and experience it. That is another thing that I am coming to appreciate more and more about having been in California in those years where there is more infrastructure and more expectation for that kind of expression.

[Jordan Morris]

Yeah, totally. And I think and to double back to the drinking and drugs thing, I think a part of why I was so drawn to like youth group as social situation is cause I was a coward. I think I was so afraid of sex and drinking and drugs. I was so afraid of it. I think all of the like dare stuff, you know, it was the 90s maybe we were giving people weird messages about AIDS and how you could get it. And maybe it was just scary. Cause you thought it was everywhere. And I think I. I just felt so safe in a Social situation where I knew that I wasn't gonna be pressured into drinking and drugs and sex. And I think that, you know, as you mentioned, you smoke the occasional clove afterwards. And I do think, you know, like my Free With Ads co host, Emily also grew up in a youth group, but she talks a lot about doing a lot of her early, like, friends fooling around with, like, other members of the youth group. And I think that happened at camps and stuff like that.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Not to me, Jordan.

[Jordan Morris]

No, not to me either. Listen. I'm fucking a listen.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Try as I might.

[Jordan Morris]

Sure. So, you know, I think there were opportunities to be naughty within youth group, but for the most part, they were these, like, chaste, sober hangs where you could just be a silly goose and kind of still be pretty kid like, but still feel like you were having fun. And it kind of attached an ethos to it rather than just like, I'm scared to try drugs or I'm scared to try alcohol. It's just like, why don't do it, Right? Because the Lord says not to. You know, and it's. And, you know, there's Straight Edge kids, too. And that's a little version.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

I was just gonna say it's not that different. I was just gonna say, well, I'm Straight Edge. I don't drink, I don't smoke.

[Jordan Morris]

Yeah, right. Yeah. And that's the Minor Threat kids. These are all kind of related, you know, related spheres for sure.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

And I don't want to. I don't think I have a lot of, like, current Straight Edge listeners. I know there is a small scene of adults who have sort of stayed Straight Edge through their adulthood. Okay, sorry if listeners don't know what Jordan and I are referencing. The DC punk band Minor Threat. Ian Makai, who eventually went on to be in Fugazi as well, he wrote a song when he was 17 or whatever called Straight Edge. It was basically no drinking, no drugs, and no sex. And that one has sort of been included or taken out and stuff like that by different sort of sectors of the Straight Edge movement. But, you know, it was very popular in the 80s and 90s. It's been very popular in hardcore music sort of throughout the decades. As far as the adult US population goes, it's a very small percentage of adults who stick with Straight Edge in a literal way well into their adulthood, into their, you know, family having years. I kind of think of it as like. Yeah, and that kind of makes sense because a lot of the stuff that was very black and white that I was drawn to as A teenager in my youth group experience is akin to straight edge. Like, purity culture is not that different than straight edge.

[Jordan Morris]

Oh, sure, yeah.

[Dr. Dan Koch]

You know, these big black and white categories, like these big distinctives, or saying like, I'm in the Lord's army, that's my primary identity, is not that dissimilar from straight edge. I just wanted to kind of get that on the table and see what you thought about that.

[Jordan Morris]

Sure. And what is an X on your hand but a cross turned sideways?

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Yeah, it all goes back at a 45 degree angle.

[Jordan Morris]

Yeah, it all goes back to the thing of just like when you're young, you're a zealot for whatever it is. For like, whatever it is you get into. You're just all about it from 13 to 17, you know, and then, you know, I think your opinions start to get a little more gray usually. And yeah, you can see the like, well, this is good, and I'm using this, but not this. And maybe this is a little extreme, but yeah, I think that's why the young would make such good demon fighters is because they just, like, they just believe it, you know?

[Dr. Dan Koch]

Absolutely. Okay, let's take a little break and when we get back, I want to ask you when you started to realize that this change was funny. You can listen to the rest of

[Jordan Morris]

this episode by joining the [e-mail] Dan Koch.