← Rena Malik, MD Podcast
Rena Malik, MD Podcast
Moment: How Much Protein Do You Actually Need, based on Science ft. Dr. Allan Bacon
00:24:11
In this episode, Dr. Rena Malik is joined by fitness expert Dr.Allan Bacon to discuss the complexities of nutrition. They dive into protein intake guidelines, examining the balance needed for different body compositions and fitness goals. Allan elaborates on incorporating dietary fats and carbohydrates, debunking myths about high protein diets and saturated fats. The conversation also highlights the importance of understanding individual nutritional needs and genetic factors.
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- [00:00]
A
Now let's talk about nutrition. And I want to start with talking about protein. And I think that there's guideline that we need to address. When you look at the guidelines for protein intake, the US guidelines would say that, you know, 0.8 grams per kilogram is the recommended amount, which is like not very much, and then the ceiling of which is 1.6 grams per kg, after which eating more is not going to be helpful.
- [00:28]
B
I don't agree with that. And so what we will typically hear from fitness professionals is 1 gram of protein daily per pound of ideal body weight. And there's nothing wrong with this. It is a good general recommendation. It promotes good amounts of lean body mass, it promotes good body composition. It works on a variety of populations. I mean, this or 1 gram of protein per centimeter of body height are both really good recommendations because they work across a large proportion of people. I mean, even the obese. If I'm giving a recommendation and the goal is to maximize lean muscle building return in body composition and overall health, it's a little bit more nuanced. Now that doesn't mean that I disagree with another professional that says one gram per pound of ideal body weight. I fully support them in saying that because it's great and it's easy to remember. And there's a reason that they use that because it is easy to remember. The answer is a little bit more nuanced and the answer is a little bit more nuanced because there are different situations which can modify that. And particularly if we're trying to maximize lean muscle building return, it may be a bit different. If we look at the research, it's anywhere between 0.72 and about 1.5 grams of protein daily per pound of body weight. Now this is not appropriate for the obese because that would have them taking in massive amounts of protein that they just can't possibly eat. So I would use one of the two previous recommendations, but this varies based on body composition, age, whether you're in a calorie surplus or deficit goals and your personal preferences. The lower end of that range, about 0.72 to 1 gram, is a very appropriate recommendation for pretty much everybody in general population and those at maintenance or above. You can technically take in more than that. If you take in more than that, it might confer some benefits for body composition. We've got a lot of anecdotal research and we've got a lot of research looking at things like physique athletes and when they take in higher doses, they tend to have better body compositions. That doesn't necessarily mean that you get more lean muscle mass, but it means maybe you have more lean muscle mass in comparison to less body fat.
- [02:26]
A
Okay.
- [02:26]
B
And so that can be very beneficial. The leaner that you are, the more significant of a calorie deficit that you're in. The older you are and the more muscle mass that you have, your daily protein needs likely increase.
- [02:37]
A
Okay. The leaner you are, the older you.
- [02:39]
B
Are, the more muscle mass that you.
- [02:41]
A
Have, the more baseline muscle mass you.
- [02:43]
B
Have, and the more significant of a calorie deficit that you're in.
- [02:46]
A
Okay.
- [02:47]
B
So for these people that tend to try to cut pretty drastically, upping to the higher end of that range that I recommended is probably a better idea, particularly if you have more lean muscle mass, because the leaner that you are and when you're in a calorie deficit, you are at a much greater risk for losing lean muscle. And so by taking in some more protein in conjunction with weight training and proper sleep, you're going to minimize lean muscle loss. As you get older, you're probably going to have some issues because there's an anabolic resistance. You become anabolically resistant to the response. And so adding in more protein tends to counterbalance that a good bit. Bit.
- [03:22]
A
So when you're in a calorie deficit large, a larger proportion of your calories should come from protein so that you're not losing your muscle mass.
- [03:29]
B
Yes. Yeah. In conjunction with weight training and proper sleep. Yes. And this is one of those nuances that the 1 gram or the 1 gram per centimeter height don't necessarily touch at. But again, that's not wrong because it's still putting you in a good range and it's still simple. And I think that when you're talking to the general population and trying to get them to really understand, I think keeping it simple is good. But this is a podcast that they can rewatch. And so when we talk about this, they can, they can look back on this and say, okay, well, he said 0.72 to 1.5 grams, you know, per pound of body weight in the non obese. And that can be a beneficial thing. And maybe I enjoy eating 1.2 grams and I actually find it better because it's more satiating. I actually feel like my body composition is a little bit better in that position. And so then you have a little bit more autonomy in what you choose. And I want to emphasize you can go higher than the recommendations that I've, I've said here. I Don't really give recommendations higher than that because it's high enough as is.
- [04:27]
A
Yeah.
- [04:28]
B
And you probably aren't benefiting from anything beyond that. As far as the research that I've seen from a body composition perspective, outside of maybe it's just your personal preference to eat a crap ton of protein.
- [04:40]
A
Yeah.
- [04:40]
B
Now the good news is we have research that looks at even higher protein intakes than I recommended. I mean, double what I recommend it. Antonio and colleagues did it out of the ISSN for over a year for long periods of time. And there is no signs of negative health consequences from doing this, assuming it doesn't put you into a major calorie surplus and it doesn't push out other nutrients in your diet that you need.
- [05:04]
A
Yeah, I think I read one when I was looking at protein. I forget for which video I made, but basically the biggest side effect was GI distress if you had a lot of protein.
- [05:14]
B
But you're going to have the same thing if you take in too much fat, too dietary fat. So you're balancing this diet anyway as per your preference, and at least now you have a range to be able to do it. Now one thing that I do want to touch on along this vein is, and you're probably very familiar with this, you'll hear very often the myth that high protein intakes are bad for health, particularly when weight training is in play. It's not bad for health, in fact, it's only good. I mean, there's improved bone health, improved muscle mass, improved body composition. All of these things seem to benefit.
- [05:46]
A
Yeah.
- [05:47]
B
The confusion comes into play because of one of two reasons. Either somebody had had a family member, maybe a grandparent, that had had something like kidney disease. And when kidney disease is in play, there's a problem with filtering amino acids. And so you'll often hear from a nephrologist, hey, we want you on a low protein diet. Now, unfortunately, people are misinterpreting that as high protein intake causes kidney damage.
- [06:09]
A
Right.
- [06:09]
B
High protein intake does not cause kidney damage. It exacerbates kidney disease. In a, in a pre existing condition it can be problematic because you can't filter it.
- [06:17]
A
Same thing with creatine.
- [06:19]
B
Yes. It's an amino acid, right? Yeah. So exact same thing. Yeah, yeah. I mean, beta taurine, all those types of things. So you'll either hear it secondhand from a person who maybe was told that by their doctor or had a family member, or the doctor themselves has misinterpreted some of the data that they had from a nephrology course. In medical school. And they don't realize that this is not pertinent to an otherwise healthy population.
- [06:43]
A
Yeah.
- [06:43]
B
And so I wanted to get that out there because there's always going to be somebody that's going to be like. But his recommendations are kind of high in certain circumstances. It's not problematic as long as you're getting in the rest of the nutrients that you need.
- [06:54]
A
Yeah. And you know, I would say that 1.5 grams per pound of ideal. Is it ideal body weight or total body weight?
- [07:02]
B
Total body weight.
- [07:02]
A
Total body weight.
- [07:03]
B
I mean, this is assuming that you're not obese, though, if you're in a normal, you know, type of body composition, if you're only obese, that the previous ones are much more appropriate.
- [07:10]
A
The issue with obese terminology, again, using the bmi, which is not probably applicable to somebody who, who has a large amount of lean body mass. Right.
- [07:18]
B
I would just use a visual assessment of body fat percentage if I was going to look for obese and it's about 25% or more for men, a little bit over 30 for women, and go from there. And that's when I would start to use the height and I would start to use the 1 gram per ideal body weight.
- [07:34]
A
Got it. Yeah. And those are easy to Google. You can Google body fat percentage photos and look at yourself in a mirror.
- [07:40]
B
And it's far more accurate than the, than the. In body scans.
- [07:43]
A
Yeah, it is. I believe that. I believe that, especially after what you told me. 8, 8% deviation from normal. So that's, that's pretty large. I, I understand why they sell so well because of the data, but I, I'm surprised that you know it. It's so popular.
- [07:58]
B
Yeah. And it's popular because I don't think that a lot of people really understand what they're seeing there. But as, as an example, you could do this just to test it out and say, see if I'm full of shit or not. So go get an in body scan, get your numbers, Leave the in body scan, go drink a liter of water, come back, take another scan. Your body fat percentage will go down significantly. Your lean body mass will go up significantly because hydration status massively affects it as well.
- [08:23]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [08:24]
B
And so you can see that there are, there are some errors in the way that this is done. And unfortunately, the reason that there are errors is it's an error upon an error because what they're doing is they created equation, an equation based off of hydrostatic weighing, and then they took that equation that was an estimate on hydrostatic weighing, and they tried to put it into play with BIA and electrical current. So it's an estimate of a previous estimate, and that's why the error starts to compound so badly.
- [08:52]
C
Okay.
- [08:52]
A
We talked about protein, other things in terms of designing a nutrition goal or program for a client.
- [09:01]
B
So I would like to give a little bit of guidelines for dietary fat and dietary carbohydrates, because I think that if we can understand how these two fit in with protein, then we can actually start to build our plans really well. And I understand that macro tracking is not the be all end all for most people, and I actually don't recommend it for the large majority of people for extended periods of time. But I think that it is very important to do for maybe three, four or five months to see where you are to get an idea of what proper intakes look like and to teach you how to make proper meals. Composition. So, dietary fat, this is simpler from a numbers perspective, but it is just as, if not more controversial. I mean, dietary fat is another one of those necessary macronutrients you need it for. Immune health, hormone health, cell wall integrity, you know, joint health, brain hair, nails, all these different types of things. If you're not obese, aiming for a minimum of 0.3 grams of protein, dietary pro, dietary fat per pound of body weight is the right move. That's the minimum. Now, there's no maximum, because what you're going to do with your ratio of carbs to fat is you're going to figure out what fits within your total daily calorie targets and then you can switch up your ratios depending on whatever you want to do there. The majority of your calorie intake should likely come from an unsaturated fat source. Now, this is where we can get into some controversy, and I want to talk about it a little bit, because if we can understand the nuance here, then maybe the controversy doesn't seem so scary. There's a lot of people that will say that saturated fat is always bad, and then there's some people that will say the saturated fat is in no way related to cardiovascular disease. And the reality is that both are wrong. There's a little bit of nuance in there. Rather than a blanket statement of fat being good or bad, it's likely dependent on both genetic factors and the food in question. The food item in question, the healthfulness of fats, is not simply a function of their content of saturated fatty acids. It has a lot to do with the components in the food, which is referred to as the food matrix. And when we look at the research that specifically looks at the food matrix and these different types of saturated fatty foods, whole fat, dairy, unprocessed meat, eggs and dark chocolate, are saturated fatty acid rich foods do not appear to majorly increase cardiovascular disease risk. So when we look at the evidence, the totality of evidence does not suggest further limiting these types of sources beyond the fact that they may contribute to a calorie surplus that can lead to excess body fat gain. And so we have this vilification of, of these different types of foods. And when it's outside of a major calorie surplus, it's probably not that problematic from a health perspective. I mean, eggs are one that really gets hit on a lot. Unprocessed meats are one that gets hit a lot. And these probably aren't as bad as we've been led to believe. Now they're probably pretty bad if they're causing a major calorie surplus. But anything can be pretty bad when it's causing a major calorie surplus. When you're in a calorie surplus, this is when it starts to make more sense to think about different types of fats. And I mean, some of the research has looked at things like replacing some of your saturated fat intake with polyunsaturated fats and you'll see three times more lean muscle mass gains and half the visceral fat gain with polyunsaturated fats. Rather than looking at this as saturated fat is bad, maybe it would be a good idea to start looking at this as some of these other fats have some distinct benefits. And maybe I should start eating some more fish. Yeah, legumes, dairy, cheese, you know, these types of things that can, can really provide some benefits. You know, the general recommendation of keeping saturated fats to 10% of total daily calorie intake is probably a good recommendation for gen pop. Just because a lot of us are eating saturated fat foods that are probably not the best sources. I mean, they're not eating lean, you know, flank steak, they're not eating, you know, some of these other sources. And so it's not a bad general recommendation. But understanding that there's nuance there and that even just because a food contains saturated fatty acids doesn't necessarily mean that it's bad. It just means that, hey, we should be looking at this in the context of the overall diet, in the context of, you know, the genetics of a, that a person might have. And what I mean by that is if you have hypercholesterolemia or hyperlipidemia or some other issues where you have some more dramatic effects from your dietary fat intakes. Well, maybe that's a reason to minimize some of these intakes, but for the large majority of people within a calorie intake, that's intelligent. We should probably be okay with accepting that some of these are very helpful foods.
- [13:26]
C
Hey, guys, I'm Samantha Christine, host of the Empower Podcast right here on the Pursuit Network. If you're into wellness that fits into real life with honest convos, workout tips that actually make sense, nutrition hacks that support your lifestyle, and a lot of encouragement to become your strongest self, you'll feel right at home on my show. Whether you're a busy mom in a season of rebuilding or just trying to stay consistent with the all or nothing mindset, the Empower Podcast is for you. New episodes drop every Wednesday wherever you listen to podcasts. So come hang out. I'd love to have you.
- [13:56]
A
Yes. And that is very nuanced.
- [13:58]
B
And when I was getting into it, I was like, hold on, we've got a conversation to have here.
- [14:02]
A
No. And it's so important, right? Because you are right. So many of these foods are vilified. And so, you know, I will often sit with my patients like, okay, what do you like? I'll look at their cholesterol, say, what are you eating? Right. And they're like, I have six eggs a day. I said, I have no problem with eggs, but in light of your current cholesterol, you probably need to cut back on from six to maybe four and, you know, put in something that's leaner rather than eggs. Right. But, you know, it's looking at the whole picture. And that's why I agree with you. I think that documenting what you eat in some sort of food tracker for some period of time is super valuable. So you can understand just the things you eat day to day in and day out, like, what's in them, you know, because otherwise you never think about it. Right?
- [14:46]
B
Yeah. I mean, learning amounts will really help you to dial in that food composition that I was talking about earlier, because you'll. You'll finally start to realize what a spoonful of peanut butter actually is, and it essentially, it ruins your life. But here I'm going to. I'm going to give the reverse side to that so you don't have to get rid of peanut butter. Right. The good thing that I found when I started tracking was Nutella is about the same as peanut butter. So you can now add in Nutella to your diet and not feel so bad if you were fitting in peanut butter. And I think that that's one of those things where people are like, oh, Nutella's bad because it's. This peanut butter is good because it's more natural, but it's kind of a toss up between the two.
- [15:20]
A
You know, I did this the other day. I was in the mood for gummy bears. I don't know why, I don't usually get in the mood, but like, I was, like, I was at the store and I'm looking at, you know, the healthy gummy bears. Healthy. And I'm looking at like Lifesaver gummies. Exactly. Same calorie intake. Exactly. Same fat. Exactly. Same sugar. And I'm like, like, yeah. You know what I mean?
- [15:39]
B
There's a lot of marketing going on.
- [15:41]
A
Yeah. And so I think that's the other thing is you learn to look at labels and you're like, oh, well, if I'm gonna have something that is not good for me, or I'm gonna add these calories to my day with the same exact macronutrient profile, then let me go for the thing that tastes the best.
- [15:54]
B
Yeah. It makes you a much more conscientious consumer. And then the cool thing about going for the thing that tastes the best, assuming that you have a good relationship with food, I mean, if it's a trigger food, that's a problem.
- [16:02]
A
Right.
- [16:02]
B
But assuming you have good relationships with food is maybe that's exactly what we were talking about earlier with what you needed for adherence and culture consistency. You finally got something that you felt, met that need that you had, and now you can move on with life and you don't feel restricted.
- [16:15]
A
Yes, wonderful. So important. You know, at one point in time I was able to lose a lot of weight, and then I was like, okay, I'm going to push myself further and stop eating sweets. And that was like the worst decision I ever made.
- [16:27]
B
That restrictive mindset was really killer. And it really makes a big difference to switch to an abundance mindset or something called core value eating.
- [16:34]
A
Yeah.
- [16:34]
B
And I don't know if you've heard about core value eating before, but core value eating is essentially the. You switch your minds, it's the same thing, but you switch your mindset into a positive. And so you don't think about, I can't eat gummy bears or pop tarts or whatever it is you, you think, hey, I'm hungry and I want something sweet. So I'm going to choose to eat non fat Greek yogurt. With fruit in it instead. And you that that abundance mindset, thinking about it of what can I add into my diet is a really beneficial thing. And that's why I like to talk about the fats with. Okay, well, if we know that polyunsaturated fats may come with some distinct benefits, particularly in a calorie surplus, can we start to think about maybe adding in some grilled fish into our daily meals? I mean, grilled fish tacos are wonderful, and you can make that very easily into a diet, whether you're trying to lose weight or gain weight.
- [17:19]
A
And they have the Omega 3 benefits.
- [17:21]
B
Right.
- [17:22]
A
Lots of good things there. So what about when you're out? Right. Tips that you give your clients for when they're out with their friends or they're at a restaurant or they can't track or weigh or, you know, whatever it is that they may be doing at home to help them maintain their nutrition.
- [17:37]
B
So first I have them put things in perspective. And what I mean by that is I say I will usually tell my clients, okay, for the next month, figure out what you're doing as far as your big events. You know, do you have holidays coming up? Do you have birthdays coming up? Do you have business luncheons coming up? And all those types of things. You can rank them from importance least to most. When you're in something that's more, less important to you, you can say, hey, I'm going to moderate a little bit more here, and it's okay because I'm going to indulge a little bit more on some of these other meals, and that's okay. But typically, you know, this is the situations where it's not appropriate to really count anything because you're not going to bring a scale to a restaurant. So you follow habits and routines that you're set up. You know, you eat until you're 80% full. You, if you're going to get dessert, then you forego the liquid calories. If you're going to have an appetizer, then maybe you get the grilled entree or those types of things. So you make concessions where you can, but then you also keep into your mental framework, okay, well, where does this fit within my quality of life, within how important this is to me? Because there are certainly going to be some situations where you're going to indulge more. I mean, you know, a holiday that's coming up that you really enjoy, maybe you're going to let loose a little bit more. Having said that, and I want them to do that and be honest with themselves about how important that is with them. Having said that, literally the most important thing that you can do after being conscious of these decisions that you're making and saying, I'm okay with that because it's going to allow me to enjoy that day and then cut out guilt. The second most important thing to do in that situation is to then have a plan to get back on track the very next meal or the very next day. And this is where people really screw these types of things up. Because a lot of times they'll go into it and they'll say, hey, I'm really comfortable, you know, having this cake or whatever it is. And then the next day it snowballs into another day of having leftovers of that cake or, you know, whatever it is. If you set up these days as I know what's going on, I'm going to make conscious choices. I'm not going to be pulled into this emotionally. I'm going to enjoy it when I'm in it, but I'm not going to let emotion guide my choices that I have on these days and go in with a plan and then have a plan to get back on track. It literally allows you to enjoy those days more and gets rid of the guilt afterwards.
- [19:48]
A
Yeah, yeah. I think that's so important. And I think the other thing is, you know, people will have that effort mindset, right? Like, I messed up. The rest of the day is done. Who cares? Or this weekend is done, or this vacation week is done. And that's where it becomes sort of like, now you. And not that you can't get back. You can always get back, right? But it's a matter of, like, it's a little bit harder then because you've, like, done. You know, you're like, oh, now I'm gonna take two weeks to recover from that week of discrete, you know, indiscretion.
- [20:18]
B
Well, so there's an interesting thing that. That we're bordering on here. So when people talk about habit formation, when you look at the research for habit formation, it takes between 18 and 256 days to build 90.
- [20:31]
A
Not the 21 days.
- [20:32]
B
It's not. It's not 30 days to a new habit. That's absolute bullshit. It's 18 to 256 for 95% habit formation. That's kind of the bad news, because it can take some time. The good news is, even if you screw up, as long as you get back on track, it doesn't derail that habit formation. So you're going to have those days where maybe you eat a little bit more than what you thought that you ate. As long as you get back on track the very next day, you're going to be completely fine. And I think that knowing that can be a very reassuring thing and can actually help guide you back into play.
- [21:01]
A
If you guys liked that clip from the Rena Malik, MD podcast, make sure to check out the full length episode with Dr. Alan Bacon on the Rena Malik, MD podcast.
- [21:11]
C
Hey guys, I'm Samantha Christine, host of the Empower Podcast right here on the Pursuit Network. If you're into wellness that fits into real life with honest convos, workout tips that actually make sense, nutrition hacks that support your lifestyle, and a lot of encouragement to become your strongest self, you'll feel right at home on my show. Whether you're a busy mom in a season of rebuilding or just trying to stay consistent with the all or nothing mindset, the Empower Podcast is for you. New episodes drop every Wednesday wherever you listen to podcasts, so come hang out. I'd love to have you.