The #1 Mistake Even Healthy Men Make About Their Heart

Summary

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Podcast Episode Summary

Podcast: Rena Malik, MD Podcast
Host: Dr. Rena Malik
Episode Title: The #1 Mistake Even Healthy Men Make About Their Heart
Date: October 31, 2025
Guest: Dr. Amy Butt, Cardiologist, Harvard Medical School; Chief Innovation Officer, American College of Cardiology; Chair, FDA Digital Health Advisory Committee

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Overview

This episode explores the future of heart health, common misconceptions about cardiovascular risks—especially among seemingly healthy men—and how artificial intelligence (AI) is poised to revolutionize patient agency and healthcare outcomes. Live from the HLTH conference, Dr. Rena Malik welcomes Dr. Amy Butt, a trailblazer in cardiology and digital health, to illuminate how shifting cultural attitudes, AI, and evidence-based strategies can dramatically improve both longevity and quality of life.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Promise and Pitfalls of AI in Medicine

Timestamps: 01:07 – 06:53

• Collaborative Intelligence, Not Artificial:
  Dr. Butt prefers the term "collaborative intelligence" over "artificial intelligence," emphasizing that these technologies should enhance the healthcare experience, not replace human judgment. (01:14)

• Improving Patient Agency:
  AI can help patients better understand their health information and improve the often inefficient, opaque process of navigating the medical system.

  “Now we can really take all the information that's out there and we can turn it into something that you can understand.” — Dr. Amy Butt (01:27)

• Regulation and Safety:
  Faster AI development requires adaptable, transparent infrastructures and safeguards, not static “do’s and don’ts.”

  "AI is moving too fast...build an infrastructure for using it with guardrails that makes it safe." — Dr. Amy Butt (04:21)

• Bias in Data:
  Existing biases in medical data (e.g., underrepresentation of women and minorities) are perpetuated by AI, underscoring the need for broader real-world data collection.

  "You can't apply something that's not done in people who look like you." — Dr. Amy Butt (05:35)

• Real-world Evidence & Registries:
  Individual data from wearables and health records could help personalize recommendations and fill gaps in traditional research, especially for underserved groups. (06:15)

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2. Timeless Fundamentals for Heart Health

Timestamps: 06:55 – 13:04

• The “Big Five” for Heart Health:
  Dr. Butt stresses sticking to evidence-backed basics, calling them “timeless” instead of “old”:

  1. Blood pressure: Keep it in a healthy range (target: <130/80 mmHg; many don’t know they have hypertension)

     “One out of two people have hypertension. Most of those people don't know it.” — Dr. Amy Butt (07:24)

  2. Cholesterol: Focus on LDL (“bad” cholesterol), not just total cholesterol, with targets adjusted for risk factors.

     “You don't have to have no cholesterol, but you should have an LDL that is in range for you.” — Dr. Amy Butt (07:36)

  3. Body Mass Index (BMI): Keep BMI under 25 or under 23 for South Asian populations.

     “I'd like your body mass index to be less than 25, less than 23 if you're South Asian.” — Dr. Amy Butt (07:56)

  4. Hemoglobin A1C: Aim for <5.8 (ideally <5.7) to minimize diabetes risk. (08:09)
  5. Stress: The hardest but arguably most crucial factor, often neglected.

• Silent High Blood Pressure in “Healthy” Men:
  Athletic or fit men often overlook blood pressure, leading to issues like sexual dysfunction. Arterial stiffness with aging means nobody’s immune, regardless of fitness.

  “You don't realize that you have high blood pressure...You will learn to feel it and you'll understand more about your body.” — Dr. Amy Butt (09:05)
  “You can still develop blood pressure later, even if you don't have it now, even if you're fit.” — Dr. Amy Butt (09:22)

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3. Cholesterol, Red Meat, and Diet—Separating Fact from Fiction

Timestamps: 09:45 – 12:48

• The Real Story about Cholesterol:

  • HDL is the "good" cholesterol, often genetic; a high total cholesterol may be OK if HDL is high. Fiber and exercise help boost HDL.

    “If your total cholesterol were high because your good cholesterol is high, doesn't matter.” — Dr. Amy Butt (10:14)

  • LDL is the “bad” cholesterol—the main target for reduction. Moderation, not complete elimination, is best.

• Red Meat and Moderation:

  • Lean red meat still contains cholesterol. Moderation depends on individual risk factors; “once a week” or "once a month" recommendations are personalized.

    “If you have a strong family history...then we should do once a month.” — Dr. Amy Butt (12:17)
    “If you're relatively healthy...maybe you can do it once a week.” — Dr. Amy Butt (12:32)

  • Vary Your Protein: Mix up sources—include fish, white meat, plant-based options for variety and health.

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4. The Future: Personalized Prevention with AI

Timestamps: 12:48 – 14:45

• Data Integration and Polygenic Risk:
  The ultimate vision is a future where data from multiple sources—wearables, EHRs, genetics, lifestyle—combine to identify the top health risks for each individual. This enables targeted prevention and more meaningful conversations with clinicians.

  “Eventually my hope is I will be able to say...these are the two that are going to affect your mortality.” — Dr. Amy Butt (12:57, also echoed at 00:00)

• Empowering Patients:
  As patients become more informed, they gain agency to direct personal and medical attention toward what matters most for their health and longevity.

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5. Wearables and Actionable Health Data

Timestamps: 14:45 – 16:53

• Wearables: What to Track and Why:
  Dr. Butt recommends getting comfortable with any wearable device, noting that sleep and heart rate (including heart rate variability) are particularly useful, simple metrics.

  “Any wearable right now is a good idea because it's you saying, I'm in charge of my body and myself.” — Dr. Amy Butt (15:52)

• Blood Pressure Tracking:
  Traditional (arm cuff) measurement remains the gold standard, but even wrist-based wearable trends can promote awareness and early action.

• Bottom Line:
  The act of tracking health data fosters ownership and awareness—critical first steps toward change.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Shifting Medical Culture:

  "We're very paternalistic...The phrase I like to use is it's not consumerism, it's patient agency." — Dr. Amy Butt (02:38)

• On Research Representation:

  "You can't apply something that's not done in people who look like you...doing more research is important." — Dr. Amy Butt (05:35)

• On Practical Advice:

  “The one thing you can do for yourself: go get your blood pressure checked.” — Dr. Amy Butt (07:36) “Everybody rebounds from the healthiest diet. So just find what fits for you is what I try to say.” — Dr. Amy Butt (11:04)

• On Technology Adoption:

  “If there's anything that gets people to pay more attention to, could I have high blood pressure?...Let's use it.” — Dr. Amy Butt (16:47)

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Recommended Actions for Listeners

• Check your blood pressure regularly, regardless of age or fitness.
• Know your LDL cholesterol, BMI, and hemoglobin A1C.
• Moderate red meat and opt for diverse protein sources.
• Adopt a wearable device; track sleep, heart rate, and trends.
• Get involved in your healthcare—ask questions, track your own data, use reliable tools, and advocate for yourself.
• Pay attention to stress management as part of your cardiovascular health.

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This episode provides listeners with practical, evidence-based advice and a preview of how technological and cultural shifts will empower individuals to take control of their heart health—starting today.

Transcript

[Dr. Amy Butt]

Eventually, my hope is I will be able to say, I know you have to focus on seven different things, but these are the two that are going to affect your mortality.

[Dr. Rena Malik]

Did you know that one out of two adults has high blood pressure and most don't even know it? Heart disease is the leading cause of death globally and in the United States. And today we're talking about heart health and the future of healthcare with AI. Welcome back to the Rena Malik, MD, podcast, your trusted guide for leveling up your health, sex life and relationships with evidence based tools. I'm your host, Dr. Rena Malik, urologist and pelvic surgeon. And today we're diving into the future of cardiac medicine with a true pioneer in the field, Dr. Amy Butt. Live from the HLTH conference, Dr. Butt is a leading cardiologist at Harvard Medical School, Chief Innovation Officer of the American College of Cardiology, and chairs the FDA Digital Health Advisory Committee. In this episode, you're going to learn how to understand your risks for heart disease and, and how AI is a powerful tool that will change your experience in medicine and how you manage your health.

[Dr. Amy Butt]

I know you do a lot of.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Work with artificial intelligence, so how, as a patient, can they expect that artificial intelligence will improve their experience and their outcomes?

[Dr. Amy Butt]

I think the first thing that we think about with artificial intelligence, I don't love the word artificial. I like to call it collaborative intelligence. Right. It's something that's helping us. But for patients, what we have to recognize is partly the experience with the healthcare system. It's not really all that smooth anymore. It takes a long time to understand what you need, get an appointment. And I think a lot of the efficiencies of healthcare are gonna improve. So that's on the medical hospital clinic side. If you're thinking about being a patient, gosh, what an opportunity for patient agency. You know, people used to say Dr. Google and things like that, but now we can really take all the information that's out there and we can turn it into something that you can understand. So, for example, I was reading something about cars the other day, and I was like, I don't get it. And I said, explain this to me, like I'm an eighth grader. And it did something. Then I said, explain it to me, like, I'm a cardiologist. All of a sudden, they turned the car parts into hard parts for me. And it clicked and I was like, yes, I get it. And so in that sense, generative AI, this large language model, ChatGPT type thing that's going to be really Interesting for patients to be able to learn more about themselves and then come to healthcare much more informed. Right. And that's what we're looking for.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

It's so important. I mean, that's why I'm on social media. That's why I started on social media is really to like teach people and educate them at home because we have such little time with patients to really educate them on what's going on. And so if AI can help in that way, that's great.

[Dr. Amy Butt]

The one thing I'll say to you about you though is you're unique. I think we do have a little problem with culture in medicine, which is we're very paternalistic. Right. Or maternalistic. And this idea of like, do what I say and I think we need to really change. The phrase I like to use is it's not consumerism, it's patient agency.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Dr. Amy Butt]

Like wear your wearables, look up information, ask ChatGPT. Ideally they're going to be more medical based, large language models. So you're not actually asking like literally the ChatGPT, but you have a medical one, get that information. And it's our job as doctors and nurses to want our patients to want to know more about themselves. So there's a little culture change. So people may feel a little pushback. Not everybody is like you. Yeah, people may feel a little pushback and you just have to work through it.

[Dr. Rena Malik]

Absolutely.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I mean, I think it's the way of the future.

[Dr. Amy Butt]

It really is.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And, and you do some work also with the FDA on digital health leadership. So how is that going to be regulated? Because the concern that I have Right. As a doctor is that like AI, we've already seen some instances of AI telling patients like what they want to hear. Right. And young kids what they want to hear and not necessarily the right answer because it wants to be very, you know, positive.

[Dr. Amy Butt]

Yes.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And so I think there's an important space for regulation. You're very involved in that.

[Dr. Amy Butt]

Yeah. So we have a digital health advisory committee and I lead that group and we met last year talking about generative AI. Exactly what you're saying. And what we came up with is a following which is we really need an infrastructure for people to understand how it's safe to use it. So you can't just use it and expect. You wouldn't use ChatGPT to like balance your checkbook. Right? Let's. I mean you could.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Sure.

[Dr. Amy Butt]

But you wouldn't just be like, here, go take my bank account and do what you want with it. Invest my money. Your Health is the same as that. Right. You're investing in yourself. Right. And you want to protect yourself. And so one of the most important things about regulation is not saying, don't do this, don't do that. AI is moving too fast for it. We'll miss something if we just say, don't do, because it'll be something new and I won't know about it, somebody else won't know about it. But what we say is build an infrastructure for using it with guardrails that makes it safe. And that's what we're telling clinicians and systems and hospitals and companies. If you're building something, show us transparently, like what are you building and how are you keeping people safe?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And what's the data going into it?

[Dr. Amy Butt]

Right.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Because it's only as good as what you put into it.

[Dr. Amy Butt]

That's exactly it. That's exactly it. So I think transparency and then outcomes, I really ask the companies who are doing these things, did you make stuff better or did a lot of people just use your thing for three months and then stop? Because that's not helpful.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Right. And how do you measure that? Yes, in a meaningful way. And then in the same space, like I said, what goes in is what comes out. And research itself, if you use research, it's already very biased. Like there's less data on women, there's less data on minorities by far compared to the general population. So what, what applies from research is that we don't, don't know enough. Right. And so I think that's something important. And maybe you could speak on that is like how AI can only do as much as it's taught.

[Dr. Amy Butt]

Yeah. So yesterday we kicked off Health with a women have hard panel on the main stage. And we were really focused on the fact that you can't apply something that's not done in people who look like you. Right. You just can't say, I did it in this. I studied this in dogs and menus and cats. Doesn't work. The same is true for like men, women, different ethnicities. And so doing more research is important. What I will say I'm really excited about patients being their own kind of agents because randomized trials that take a long time, gosh, we're going to be waiting forever for every ethnic group, every, you know, gender, whatever, to be able to do that. But if you start to take real world evidence, like if you're using an Apple Watch or a Whoop or whatever else, if you have data about yourself and your health record, it's your data and you're willing to share that we can start making registries and learning so much more using AI so much sooner and be like, hey, it's not perfect for you, but if I look for women who look for you at this age, who look like you at this age, I notice these trends. Right. Or, like, here's a knee surgeon that's done a lot of knees in a woman your age, in your area. Right. And so now we can start. Really.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I think that is so great. Right. Because there's so many people who've done, like, in the private world where they're not doing research, but they do clinically take care of a lot of minorities or a lot of women. And if AI can get that data easily and analyze it like, we're in a whole new frontier.

[Dr. Amy Butt]

That's exactly right. That's exactly right.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

So I know you're a cardiologist, and I think the important thing I really want to talk about is there's a lot of confusion around, like, what is good for heart health? Like, there's like, is cholesterol good? Is cholesterol bad? And there's, like, all these new biomarkers that, to be honest, I don't remember learning in medical school. Maybe they're new for that reason. And so I just want some clarity for our audience. I'm like, what's important for heart health?

[Dr. Amy Butt]

Yeah. So five things. They're all the old things. I like to call them timeless, not old, but blood pressure.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yes.

[Dr. Amy Butt]

You got to keep your blood pressure down. It is essential. One out of two people have hypertension. Most of those people don't know it.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

One out of two.

[Dr. Amy Butt]

One out of two. So if, like, anybody's watching today and they just want to, like, go get your blood pressure checked, like, go get your blood pressure.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Oh, my God.

[Dr. Amy Butt]

That's the one thing you can do for yourself. Number two, cholesterol. You don't have to have no cholesterol, but you should have an LDL that is in range for you. Right. So lower than 130 is ideal if you have risk factors. If you had a complicated pregnancy with preeclampsia, if you're South Asian, kind of like you under a hundred, and, you know, there's guidelines for all of this. You can find, you know, online easily. Cholesterol. So blood pressure, cholesterol. I would like your body mass index to be less than 25, less than 23. If you're a South Asian happy dwelling, get your BMI less than 23. Right. Like, that's what needs to happen. I think those are like three of the easiest things to do. And then the other things that come are more related to, like metabolic. Right. Which is your hemoglobin A1C. It's a number you can ask your doctor to get for you. Clinicians know this. Right. And so I think that's important. Below 5.8, ideally below 5.8, I like 5.7 or lower is my. Yeah, yeah. Your visceral fat, your belly fat. Right. Something to work on. And then the last is probably the most important and the hardest, which is stress.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

We spend a lot of time on all these other things, and no one talks about stress. And I find it all the time. The one thing you mentioned about blood pressure, that was the number one is I see so many, like, really fit, young, healthy men who have terrible blood pressure.

[Dr. Amy Butt]

Yes.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And that's why they have ED or whatever their sexual health issue is. So that's a huge one. And then, yes, stress.

[Dr. Amy Butt]

Like, no.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

People are like, I've got everything that I'm eating right, I'm sleeping right. I'm. No, but your stress is out of control.

[Dr. Amy Butt]

Let me go to healthy men for a second. Right. A lot of my friends, like, very fit guys. Two things happen. One is you don't realize that you have high blood pressure. Right. The second is if you learn your symptoms of high blood pressure, if you start measuring, you will know when your blood pressure is going up. Sometimes it's related to stress, other times it's related to other things. You will learn to feel it and you'll understand more about your body. Now, if you say, no, my blood pressure's always been great, doc. I check it. I say, you're still not immune because when you age, your arteries get stiffer. We don't have a way to stop that yet. You can still develop blood pressure later, even if you don't have it now, even if you're fit. So checking blood pressure is never a wrong thing for anyone.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

It's easy.

[Dr. Amy Butt]

Yeah. Simple.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And then in cholesterol, I think a lot of people are misinformed and think that cholesterol is okay for you. Like, there's been a lot of sort of social media, and I think part of it is like, people are doing short form video and they say something and it's taken out of context. And so let's. Let's break down a little bit of like, LDL versus total cholesterol versus sort of like, what are people? Cause people are like, oh, my total cholesterol is high. But that's okay. That I hear that all the time.

[Dr. Amy Butt]

I've kind of myself stopped looking at total cholesterol. I look at the hdl, the high density lipoprotein. That's a good cholesterol.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yes.

[Dr. Amy Butt]

Part of that's genetic, right. Like I could have gotten my mom's hdl. I got my dad's. Sorry, dad. And like, so it's low. My mom's is brilliantly high. If your total cholesterol were high because your good cholesterol is high, doesn't matter. Right. And those are some of those people who've been told that by a doctor, don't understand why. Yes. Um, and so I really look at that. How can you get it up, by the way, if yours is low fiber and exercise. Fiber and exercise. Okay. We think it makes it a little more. It's a protective cholesterol. LDL is the bad cholesterol. Right. This is the saturated fats cholesterol. This is the fried food cholesterol. I love eating eggs, but what I will do if I'm getting in the habit is I will start to drop the yolks after a while. Right. Like you can have one yolk with three eggs. Right. And you can change your habits so you don't have to stop eating things completely. For ldl, that's the key to moderate. Like ideally, no fried food. Right. Ideally reducing red meat, but beyond that, things like avocado, egg, other stuff that's in your diet that may have cholesterol, just moderate, all of it. If you try and cut it out, everybody rebounds. Everybody rebounds from the healthiest diet. So just find what fits for you is what I try to say.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Right. And I think the other thing about red meat is there's a lot of like confusion about red meat because all the data's on like traditional red meats, which are not lean red meat.

[Dr. Amy Butt]

That's right.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Is there any evidence about lean red meat on heart health?

[Dr. Amy Butt]

So lean red meat still actually has cholesterol in it, just by definition. So I tell people again, if you are going to eat and you do it in moderation and you're watching your cholesterol, then that's fine, right? I think that's okay. The other thing is, I think we need protein. Vegetarian sources, vegan sources of protein are hard but very doable. I have a lot of good friends who do it.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Dr. Amy Butt]

I myself will throw meat in the mix. Right. But then there's also kind of, do you have white meat? Do you have fish? And can you start to vary the types of protein you're getting. So you're not just relying on, like, I love steak, so I have it every day. Right. Like, you can love a good steak and you can still find other ways on other days to eat something so that that steak's like, super special when you have it. Right. And that's okay.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And what do you mean, I guess, when you tell your patients moderation? What do you mean? Is it like twice a week?

[Dr. Amy Butt]

It depends on who you are and what your cholesterol profile looks like, what your family history is. Right. If you have a strong family history, brother's got heart disease, you have high blood pressure, your cholesterol's not great. Like, then we should do once a month. Like, we should really, like, bring it down.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Dr. Amy Butt]

If you're relatively healthy of a high hdl, your LDL is naturally low and it doesn't rise that much, then, you know, and you love your steak. Right. Or whatever it might be, then maybe you can do it once a week. And so I think you really have to personalize for yourself when you're thinking about this and say, what are my risk factors and what am I willing to control?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And the last question I want to ask you is now kind of bringing AI into this. How do you think AI is going to be able to sort of look at these things more quickly and be able to give us more information? Like, you wrote a paper on polygenic risk scores. Right. So, like, how is that going to play into the patient experience?

[Dr. Amy Butt]

My favorite thing, we're not there yet because data is messy right now, and it's all in different forms. It's not necessarily interoperable. Eventually we will get to a place where, regardless of where the data is, we structure it or we figure out how to get to it in a way that I can take you and say, okay, I know these things from your doctor or your health record. I know these things about your social kind of determinants and stuff. I know these things about your history and your family. And by the way, I know a set of things about not only like, your wearable data, but also stuff that other people have volunteered to put into Apple Health or other things. Right? Yeah. Now I can put all that together and say, here's a full picture of who you are. And eventually my hope is I will be able to say, I know you have to focus on seven different things. I'm not saying you have seven diseases, but these are the two that are going to affect your mortality, or these are the two that are most likely to Cause you problems being in the hospital. Heart failure symptoms. Right. And so you may say, you know, I don't want to live forever, but I want to live better. And so then you can focus on that. And so when you get that information, then you can have a really important conversation with your clinicians, with your family, and say, here's the thing that we should work on, and that makes life a lot easier. Most people have two chronic diseases. When you get over age 60, a lot of people have more. Right. And so how do you figure out what to focus on? It would be great to have a snapshot picture of yourself. Give it to your doctors, your pharmacists, your nurses, but also use it yourself to say, I see. Yeah, that tracks. These four things are things I need to work on, but that one's the one that's gonna make my life not as great. I'm gonna start there.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yes, I think that's great.

[Dr. Amy Butt]

I'm excited.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Is there, like, wearable data right now that you think everybody should be looking at?

[Dr. Amy Butt]

I would love for people to start to get used to wearables and look at whatever's more intuitive. So, I mean, sleep. I mean, I wish I was a better sleeper. I think most people do, right? Especially during menopause. Sleep is, like, not a pleasant thing. So. But I think it's true. And by the way, like, men also have sleep issues around the same age we do, even though it's not menopause. Right. So I think there's. Through the aging process, we're losing our ability to have those hours of sleep. So there's a lot of different trackers. There's a sleep mat on your bed. There's things you can wear. You can wear a ring. And so I think that's a really important one. That's super easy, and you don't blame yourself for it. You just get to know your habits. So that's a favorite one of mine. Yeah. I do think measuring your heart rate, seeing what it looks like, heart rate variability is something that a lot of the wearables give. It's a sign of how much your heart rate goes up and down. Your own baseline is your own baseline, but you can kind of see its effect. The worst thing about it is if you have alcohol, it immediately shows you that the next morning. So, like, take it off if you want to go have some drinks, maybe. Unless you really are trying to get off. Like you're stressed and then. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Are you sick?

[Dr. Amy Butt]

Like, exactly, Exactly. But joking aside, I think any wearable right now is a good idea because it's you saying, I'm in charge of my body and myself, and it's you going into healthcare saying, I know things about me and I know how I feel. And then the most important thing is you track how you feel with the numbers and you start to see things. And that's great. I do like the blood pressure kind of trend idea on the wrists. We're watching it really closely. Yeah, real blood pressure is arm cuff, you know, properly done, validated, et cetera. But there are FDA approvals now coming for things that can give you, hey, you might have blood pressure. We had a conversation about this yesterday. Somebody tried to tell me, no, Dr. Bot, you don't want that. You want a real blood pressure. I said, look, one out of two people has high blood pressure and we've had blood pressure cuffs along for a long time. So if there's anything that gets people to pay more attention to, could I have high blood pressure?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

It's great.

[Dr. Amy Butt]

Let's use it. So any wearable that's out there, just use it and get used to it. It's your data. I just get used to it. Awesome.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Well, thank you so much.

[Dr. Amy Butt]

Thank you for having me.

[Dr. Rena Malik]

Thank you guys so much for joining us on today's episode of the Rena Malik, MD podcast. If you enjoyed it, do me one solid favor.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Subscribe or follow or whatever it is.

[Dr. Rena Malik]

On your podcast app. Click that button so you're following the podcast and make sure to leave a rating or review. It is completely free, zero cost. Way to support the podcast and I will greatly appreciate it and as always, want to take care of yourself because you're worth it.