← Rena Malik, MD Podcast
Rena Malik, MD Podcast
The Real Reason People Keep Choosing the Wrong Partner
01:31:17
In this episode, Dr. Rena Malik, MD is joined by Dr. Frankie Bashan to explore the challenges of modern dating, attachment theory, and the search for lasting love. They discuss patterns that affect relationship success, the influence of dating apps, and how to communicate about sexual fantasies and intimacy. Listeners will gain practical advice for fostering stronger connections and enhancing their love lives.
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- [00:00]
A
I think people's expectations are much higher.
- [00:03]
B
I think it's harder than ever before to actually meet people. Meanwhile, we have all these waves, right? All these dating apps, all these meetups, and yet we are more depressed and anxious than ever before because social media and society tells us, you deserve it. You deserve the best. Don't settle for anything less.
- [00:21]
A
Yeah, but the reality is there is no best. There's the best for you, right? Most people think finding the one is about luck or having the perfect profile. But the real science of lasting love goes much deeper. Welcome back to The Reena Malik, M.D. podcast, your trusted guide for leveling up your health, sex life and relationships with evidence based tools. I'm your host, Dr. Rena Malik, urologist and pelvic surgeon. And today we're bringing you cutting edge psychological insights to truly master your love life. I am so excited to host Dr. Frankie, a clinical psychologist, board certified sex therapist, and a leading matchmaker who boasts a very impressive 85% success rate. She brings over two decades of expertise bridging clinical understanding with the art of human connection. We'll explore why your current dating strategy might be failing, expose the hidden psychological traps and reveal the secrets to finding and keeping lasting love. We even talk about things like how to have anal sex and have threesomes in a way that really enhances pleasure. And if you want to have better sex like we're talking about in this episode, make sure to check out my better sex app@www.studio.com. rena. There you can get a personalized app that's trained by me to give you daily micro lessons, health practices, and weekly intimacy challenges that can help guide you to whatever your goal is in terms of getting better sex, whether that's communication, navigating erectile dysfunction, or menopause. It's all there. And let's get to it. Dr. Franke, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here.
- [01:57]
B
Thank you, Rena. Thanks for having me. I'm excited.
- [01:59]
A
I'm excited too. So you are a clinical psychologist, but you sort of pivoted and became a matchmaker?
- [02:06]
B
I was sort of born a matchmaker, but I was first a matchmaker. Just didn't realize that that's what I was actually doing as a teenager. I would bring people together naturally. I was drawn to it. I set my father up with my eye doctor when I was 14. They got married, they had three kids. So I just, I was on a path not knowing.
- [02:27]
A
That's so cool. And, you know, I think it's a little bit of an art, right, to see that. But also now you have this clinical psychology background. So how do you see that sort of fit into when you're deciding if someone's a good fit? What sort of like psychological factors are you looking at?
- [02:43]
B
Yeah, so we're looking at, I mean something that is really popular right now is attachment theory. So understanding what is my client's background? Do they have trauma in their history? What are their relationships look like with their family, with their friends? Interpersonal, all their interpersonal relationships, but most importantly their romantic relationships and early childhood relationships. So that really plays into it. I try to get a sense of kind of their own self worth having, how they take care of themselves on a daily basis, how they view themselves, how they view others, how they view the world. So there's a lot of kind of understanding about human behavior, what makes us tick, what's important to them personally. Because we're all different, you know, we can't make assumptions about people is what I've learned throughout my career.
- [03:28]
A
Yeah, that all makes sense. But I, I wonder, are people good at picking out for themselves what they want? Like, you know, I think, I imagine when you go to matchmaker, you're like, I want X, Y, Z and I want all these things in my part and make it happen for me.
- [03:42]
B
Yeah. No. The answer is no, we're not. We unconsciously search for people that are familiar, they match our previous experiences. So even if we want to change an outcome, say we're somebody who tends to be drawn to narcissist or people who are self absorbed, very, very charismatic, but also self centered. And we're aware of that. Even if we consciously try to change that. It can be hard if we have a history of, for example, being raised by a narcissist. Like I had a narcissistic father. So it's kind of automatic. I had to go really kind of more deeply and peel back the layers and do deeper work to change things about the way that I saw myself, the way that I saw others, the way that I valued myself and things like that. So no, they're not good at it. And this is where matchmaking, as a matchmaker and a clinical psychologist, this is where we can help people who are receptive and open to behavioral change. A lot of people come in, they're not that open to coaching.
- [04:45]
A
Yeah.
- [04:46]
B
Or therapy.
- [04:46]
A
It sounds like a sort of perfect compliment because you not only understand like you have that gift for seeing who can connect, but you also can see through a therapy lens. Like what maybe patterns. They're in or what sort of they keep doing that's not working for them and then what really would complement them.
- [05:07]
B
Exactly. Yeah. So I feel really grateful for that ability because it allows me to be more successful in supporting them. Because as a matchmaker, we're just. Matchmakers are conduits. Right. We bring people to the forefront for them, we coordinate the dates, we create the experiences. But really the client is the one that needs to have an open heart, an open mind, recognize their blind spots, recognize their patterns that are getting in the way of them being successful. And yeah, so it's the combination of being a psychologist and really understanding the complexity of humanity and also being able to really get a sense of like, is this person a quality person? Is this a grounded person that I'm going to introduce to my clients? Because they're coming to me, trusting me, they're handing me their heart and they're saying, Dr. Franke, I'm not great at this, do me a favor. You are. This is your expertise. Find me somebody who's a good person, who's kind, who's available emotionally. That's one that I get very often. Who's a good communicator.
- [06:16]
A
So how do you deal with people? So this is the thing I feel like nowadays is becoming more prevalent where because of things like dating apps and like the ease of meeting new people and like, oh, there's always more like, you know, there's always more efficiency. So like when we were younger it was like you met people where you were right? You met people in your school, you met people in your work. Like that was who you were exposed to and that's only where you could meet people really, or maybe through a friend or whatever. But now because the pool is so much larger, I think people's expectations are much higher. Right. Like we joke, like women always want, you know, the six foot guy, the six figure salary, that, you know, six inch organ, like whatever it is, and it's. That's like what? I forget the percentage, but it's a very low percentage of population that meets that criteria. So how do you deal with that?
- [07:06]
B
Yeah, I think it's harder than ever before to actually meet people. Meanwhile, we have all these ways, right? All these dating apps, all these meetups and yet we are more depressed and anxious than ever before. So I think what's happening is that part of it is addiction. I mean, you're a doctor, right? It's like the addiction to the swiping, to getting right, to getting messages like the likes. And there's all of that. Oxytocin, serotonin, norepinephrine. So it's a chemical change that happens that is keeping people. I think of it like a hamster wheel. They're not getting off. They just stay there. It's so hard for them to move.
- [07:44]
A
Literally and physically, right?
- [07:46]
B
Literally and physically, yes. So how do I help people with that? I just. It's very. I normalize a lot of it. Validate, normalize. You are not alone. Like, so many people are struggling today. It's not because you don't make enough money. It's not because you're not attractive enough. It's not because you're not tall enough.
- [08:03]
A
Yeah.
- [08:04]
B
It's because we have these unrealistic ideals. And we. We think that. We all think we know what we want because social media and society tells us you deserve it.
- [08:16]
A
Yeah.
- [08:17]
B
You deserve the best. Don't settle for anything less.
- [08:21]
A
Yeah. But the reality is there is no best. There's the best for you, Right?
- [08:26]
B
Yes, exactly. Very good point. And the other thing is, we're all imperfect beings. We're all in a process, like. And it doesn't end until we take our last breath.
- [08:39]
A
Yeah.
- [08:40]
B
So we need to give people the benefit of the doubt. We need to give each other more grace and room for humanity. Just being human and flawed.
- [08:49]
A
Yeah, exactly. I remember I was talking to a friend who went on a date, and the date had to end abruptly, like, because the person had to leave, or something came up. And so she's like, I really hope he sends me flowers today. And I was like, really? I was like, I would. One, never think of that, because I don't really. That's not my, like, gesture of love or language of love. Like, getting gifts. I don't really care about that. But two, like, okay, that's very specific. Wanting flowers after someone makes a mistake. Like, any acknowledgement would be fine. Right. Or. But specifically wanting flowers delivered. And I was like, that's so interesting. And I was, like, thinking about it, and I was like, so if he doesn't deliver flowers, is he, like, gone? Like, we're done. We're stopped. We're not dating him anymore. Like, I don't. I don't understand.
- [09:31]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think it's really about. What is that looking at? What. What is your friend looking for? What is it that she wants to be acknowledged? She wants to be seen. She wants to be valued. There's not only one way to take in that information. It's not just through flowers. So for us to slow down and Think about what are we needing right now and what can we have gratitude for? That's another really important thing that we forget is like there is room, if you slow down and observe and see what are we grateful for about that person so that we're not hanging on. If they don't do this one thing, then it's over. Then they're not right for me. Because we're so quick to dismiss, reject, say no more than yes, let's break.
- [10:16]
A
It down by gender. Let's say how can men and how can women be better when it comes to approaching a new relationship with someone?
- [10:24]
B
Yeah.
- [10:24]
A
Because I think there's mistakes that everyone makes, but there's also very gendered mistakes.
- [10:28]
B
Yes. So I think lowering one's expectations so that way you're not set up for disappointment. Giving people a chance to show you who they are. A first date. We're nervous. We may say things that don't accurately reflect actually how we feel or how we think. So this is where giving people a benefit of the doubt, being open to the possibility of being attracted to somebody who doesn't necessarily make six figures, but maybe is very driven. Maybe somebody isn't 6ft tall, but it's holds themselves very confidently and they're 5, 10. So staying open, thinking about women and then men, I think we've. I mean, I hear this all the time in my practice, which is, where's the chivalry? Dr. Franke, what happened? Men aren't opening the door for us anymore. Men aren't offering to pay the bill so easily. Like, what is happening? And I think, I think they're terrified. So I think leaning into their masculinity and not really being so fearful. And I know it's hard. So many men are terrified to misstep. They don't want a woman to feel disrespected, minimized. Right. But that ultimately that polarization, that masculine, feminine energy is, I believe is necessary.
- [11:42]
A
I think it's important. Absolutely. I think it's a very controversial topic because I find that. So when I talk to men who are single, they're like, well, you want me to do all this chivalrous stuff, but then like, you still want to be the alpha in the relationship, for example. And so it's hard for them to feel masculine when the partner, like wants to be the one leading when it's convenient for them, but not all the time.
- [12:08]
B
I think it's about a balance and just respecting each other's masculine. There are many women that come to the forefront now where they've like, they've sort of leveraged their, their masculinity because. Right. We can have big careers, we can make, you know, good money, competitive to men. And we've had to. Oftentimes we've had to overcome having to get the job over a male and things. Like maybe some of us are in male dominated professions. So it's hard to not have that masculine edge in a way, as a woman who's driven and educated and smart and confident and fearless to a certain extent. So I think it's about respecting each other, communicating, not making assumptions. Like, there's a lot of that happening. And I work with a lot of couples and I'm like, wait a minute, what facts do you have that support what you're saying right now? Let's look at that, you know, because there's just. We don't realize we're filling in the blanks because we're not communicating enough.
- [13:06]
A
Yeah, I mean, that's a huge issue. Right? And I think it's like, okay, no one, no one's a mind reader. Like, I don't know what you want and I don't know what I want. But I know, like, for example, for my husband, respect is huge. And so like, there are times where I will be, you know, doing all the things I do, making, you know, do doing like 17 different things. I'm running them all. I am the boss of my many businesses. And so. But I have to come home and be like, okay, he needs to feel like the boss and handle the household in the way he does. And so I will step back and, you know, give him that chance to run the household. And so I think that's like an unspoken. I mean, I know it's important to him, and so we sort of have gotten into that routine. But I think if I didn't know that about him, I may just continue being myself in every aspect of life. And that may leave him feeling a little less respected.
- [13:57]
B
How do you know that that's something he needs?
- [14:00]
A
I think it's over the years, you know, I, and I, I'll be as. I enjoy taking a backseat, you know, at home I'm like, okay, I want to be, you know, the passenger princess of my home. Right. Like, I want someone to take care of me and I want someone to handle things. I still handle the organization part of it, but like, I want him to handle the big things, you know, And I think that one, we may have naturally fell into that. But two, I. I also know, like, there's very few things he needs, like, he's a person, but he needs respect and, and, and to feel loved and that's it. And, like, that's pretty simple for me to give him as a partner.
- [14:32]
B
Yeah. And did you figure that out by observing or through direct communication on his part?
- [14:37]
A
Yeah, we, we never really spoke of it, but I think, like, we talk about everything.
- [14:42]
B
Right.
- [14:42]
A
So it's in the unspoken things. But, like, I know when you know it, it takes a learning process. Right. Like, you learn things about each other over the years. We've been together now, 18 years. So over the years, like, I learned, like, okay, this is not the, the way to. I'm, I'm not going to get being acting like this, so let me figure out something else, like trial and error about figuring out, like, what's going to work best to navigate this challenge that we might be seeing. And so I think that's the thing. Right. But that's over, like, years of learning each other. I, I think in the beginning, you know, the, the matchmaking time, again, it was very different when I started dating, like, 18 years ago. You know, I actually did meet my husband online, but it was long before it was like a normal thing. And so it was like, still sort of like, we actually really connected in real life. So it was sort of like you had to go through the normal process of, like, getting to know each other. And, like, it wasn't like, I didn't feel like there was an abundance of people that I could choose from. I just happened to meet this one person online, you know?
- [15:38]
B
Yeah.
- [15:39]
A
It was different.
- [15:39]
B
It was more authentic back then. There was more trust.
- [15:43]
A
Yeah.
- [15:44]
B
Like, yeah, you would, you would be honest about your profile. You put up accurate photos. We didn't have all these filters.
- [15:50]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [15:51]
B
We didn't have this idea about what your bio should say.
- [15:56]
A
Yeah. There's like whole, like, classes. Right. Of people who will teach you what, what to put on your bio and how to get a man or how to get a woman or whatever, how to attract that, you know, companies that.
- [16:05]
B
Write for you entirely.
- [16:07]
A
It's crazy curated. So crazy.
- [16:10]
B
But going back to what you were saying, I think it's about a balance and really paying attention to your partner, to yourself, noticing also. And this is where it's like, me being a psychologist is really helpful, like how we are projecting our past relationships and past experiences onto our current partner.
- [16:30]
A
Yeah. Yeah, it was interesting. My husband was just telling me a story about how one of his friends online was saying how his partner had had a relationship with a celebrity once and she. I mean, it's been like, I don't know how many years since she broke up with that celebrity or he broke up with her? I don't know. But she'll bring it up all the time. Oh, this person never did this or this person never did that. And I was like, you guys aren't together. Like, why are you bringing this up? It's just making him insecure. It was just so funny to me that a lot of people do that, right? I mean, in your head, of course there's some degree of comparison, but, like, you don't need to. I mean, you don't need to bring it up. You don't need to bring it up.
- [17:03]
B
What does that do? It just creates insecurity in the partner.
- [17:06]
A
Yeah. It's crazy. I want to talk about you a little bit. So you actually started in film production, is that right?
- [17:13]
B
Yes. So I went to Northeastern, which is crazy. Now it's like one of the number one schools in the country, which I'm not surprised about. I found it kind of accidentally because I always say I was raised by wolves. Grew up in New York City with parents that were in the fashion industry that were not attending to me whatsoever.
- [17:27]
A
Yeah.
- [17:27]
B
So how I found my way to Boston at Northeastern, I feel so blessed and grateful. No idea how I got there, but I did. I studied communication and film production because I wanted. At the time, I wanted to be an anchor. I wanted to do television. I used to do an animation. You would have been great at that.
- [17:41]
A
Yeah.
- [17:42]
B
And I found my way. It's so interesting how the universe kind of, you land where you're supposed to be. Because I ended up doing television. I'm sure we'll talk about it, but this is interesting because I ended up working for Montel Williams and Inside Edition American Journal in New York City after college. And there was no me too movement. And the sexual harassment was so intense. I was like a peon. I was a little pa Bopping around, making copies. I remember feeling so intimidated by producers and even Montel Williams and his wife with her little poodle that she. I mean, the whole. I was just trying to, you know, show confidence. Meanwhile, I felt so insecure. Say hello to people in the hallway. I was. I look back, I was like. I was a kid, 21.
- [18:26]
A
Yeah.
- [18:27]
B
You know, and I was overwhelmed by just the inappropriateness of men around me that were higher, higher, higher level. And I thought, how did Deborah Norville get to this place? I would watch her in the studio, so impressed by her and thinking, I don't think I can do this. And then I would go to my therapist on 92nd Street. I'm from New York City. Right. A Jewish girl from New York in therapy my whole life.
- [18:50]
A
Yeah.
- [18:51]
B
And she's looking at me and she's known me for years, and she's like, frankie, you are a natural born therapist. You've been through a ton of shit. Why don't you consider getting a PsyD? And that's how it just changed. I was like, you know what? I want to get the hell out of television because I can't handle this. My nervous system. I didn't even know the word nervous system, but that was what was happening for me. I was getting completely anxious and overloaded. I went and got a GRE book, started studying, Studied in the back room in my dad's clothing store on 57th Street, Columbus Circle. My family's not educated, so they were like, knocking on the back door. You need to start selling. Come out here and sell. And I was like, I am studying because I can see there's a future for me and it's not being a sales girl in the clothing store.
- [19:34]
A
Yeah.
- [19:35]
B
So, yeah, it started out in television, but I went into academia, which I thought, oh, this is going to be safer. Less harassment. And it was. But that still was there.
- [19:46]
A
Yeah.
- [19:47]
B
But it sent me on a path that actually, I'm. So, like, it led to such a big career for me that I, you know, you never know, like, do I. You probably have found this where all these doors open.
- [19:58]
A
Yeah.
- [19:58]
B
If you just are aligned with, like, if you keep leaning into your passion and you. Barriers.
- [20:04]
A
People see it. People see it.
- [20:06]
B
They see it. And then there's. Sometimes there's obstacles and barriers that present. But you're like, I know this is right. I gotta keep doing it.
- [20:12]
A
Yeah.
- [20:13]
B
Yeah. And then it led me back to matchmaking.
- [20:16]
A
So.
- [20:16]
B
Yeah. Worked clinically for a decade. I thought you probably have a question.
- [20:20]
A
Yeah, no, no, that's. That's great. And then you did get back to TV on your MTV show, Are youe the One?
- [20:27]
B
Yeah. So this is interesting. So, producers. For years, since I opened my company, my matchmaking company, which is national, that happened in 2009. Maybe a few years into it, I started getting calls from producers. I didn't realize that this was like a regular occurrence. You're going to get calls from producers. They're going to share their ideas that are not at all formulated. They're raw. I've probably been called 50, 60 times in the last 17 years.
- [20:53]
A
Wow.
- [20:54]
B
MTV is the One thing that actually manifested, like, came to life and I didn't do anything for it. They just, they found me online. They saw that, you know, I'm a clinical psychologist who's also a CEO of an LGBTQ+ company. And they were doing the first ever sexually fluid dating game show.
- [21:15]
A
Yeah.
- [21:16]
B
Called Are you the one?
- [21:17]
A
Yeah.
- [21:17]
B
And they said, what do you think about. It's really interesting how this went down. What do you think about actually coming to the casting in LA and being there for the interviews and helping us select a cast? And I was like, that sounds great.
- [21:30]
A
Sounds fun.
- [21:30]
B
That sounds fun.
- [21:31]
A
Yeah.
- [21:32]
B
They flew me out for a week. By the, I think second or third day, the executive producer pulled me aside and he was like, we're thinking you'd be great on the show. How do you feel about that? And I was like, oh, my gosh. I'm thinking to myself, I've always wanted to do television.
- [21:48]
A
Here you are.
- [21:49]
B
Here's my chance.
- [21:50]
A
Yeah.
- [21:50]
B
And I'm passionate about these people. You know, the, the contestants that we're picking, I get to know them, I get to hear about their stories. I was like, this is amazing. He said, okay, show up tomorrow morning at 7am we were going to start interviewing at 8am because every day there were, there were new people coming interviewing for the show. So I sat down in the hot seat, they turned the cameras on, interviewed me, sent it to MTV, and within 24 hours they were just like, you're. We're, we're gonna bring you to Hawaii.
- [22:21]
A
It's amazing.
- [22:22]
B
Amazing. Yeah.
- [22:23]
A
So what did you learn while you were on that show? It was basically trying to get people connected as matches.
- [22:28]
B
Yes. So the whole cast was fluid.
- [22:33]
A
So, you know, and let's define fluid for the audience.
- [22:36]
B
Yeah. So which is my TED Talk. And I'm really proud of it because so many people don't understand fluidity. Basically, we can be like, sexuality is fluid. And like most things, there's a range and it's not static. So you may find yourself primarily attracted to one gender and then all of a sudden something happens and you're finding yourself attracted to another, like another gender. For example, you may be hetero, and all of a sudden, you know, you find that you're attracted to your female, you're attracted to your female best friend. This comes up in my practice a lot where there's a crisis that happens because my female client is like, I'm heterosexual. I've been in a long term relationship with a male partner, and now I'm attracted to my best Friend, what is wrong with me? Nothing's wrong with you. It's that some of us can be attracted to the same gender, even if we've been attracted to an opposite gender for years. And it can change. It can go in any direction.
- [23:37]
A
Yeah.
- [23:37]
B
And some of us are born knowing we're attracted to the same gender. There's extremes, too. Right. Or we've never been attracted to the same gender, and we may never be our entire lifespan. So that's what fluidity is. It's not fixed. It can change. And sometimes it surprises us, which is what happened to me. I was with men for years, and then I ended up at Northeastern. One of my fellow students that I didn't even know we had just graduated said to me, I had the biggest crush on you in college. You have no idea who I am. Because we were in huge classes. I said no. And then all of a sudden, I find myself making out with her, and I have a boyfriend, and I'm like, wow. I guess maybe I was born this way. Come to find out, it's not that I was born gay. I'm fluid. I'm just somebody who really is attracted to the person regardless of their gender.
- [24:33]
A
You know, I think that's such a freeing concept. Do you know what I mean? Because, like, if you even think historically, like. Right. Like, we hear about stories where, you know, kings would sleep with other men and they would also sleep with women. And, like, it was never necessarily frowned upon. Right. And I think it's a. It's a freeing concept to say, like, I can be attracted to whoever I want. It doesn't define me as a person.
- [24:55]
B
Exactly. Yeah. I just wish I knew that. Like, when I. When that happened when I was 21, I didn't really. It was the whole born this way movement. So I was like, oh, maybe I just didn't realize it. Although I went to boarding school for years, I had lived in dorms with, you know, in college and in boarding school, and I just never found myself attracted to women. And then that happened, and I was like, well, maybe I just wasn't aware. And then for years was with women, thinking I was just born this way. Come to find out, I found myself attracted to men again. I just wish I had understood that that was a possibility.
- [25:31]
A
Yeah. I think that's especially because I feel like. Yeah, sometimes there's a lot of pressure right now to put a label on it.
- [25:37]
B
Yes.
- [25:38]
A
And it doesn't need to be a label necessarily.
- [25:40]
B
No.
- [25:40]
A
Especially when you're young. Like, especially when you're Young. Because you're still figuring things out, and.
- [25:45]
B
You may be middle age and realized. Right. And you thought you figured it out, and you're like, wait, wait a minute. This is a surprise to me. That's okay, because that's part of being human. Nothing wrong with you.
- [25:58]
A
Yeah.
- [25:59]
B
So the show is just like. That spoke to me about fluidity. And there were people all along the range. There were some men there that were basically attracted to men. Maybe they were more, you know, gay men. There were some bi men. There were some men that were just like. I'm not sure. I don't really know. But I'm open. I can feel that I'm open. Same with women. They threw them all together. I can't remember how many there were right now. Maybe 16. And then I was the relationship expert who would show up and kind of help them navigate the complexity of what they were feeling and what they were seeing and just provide support because, you know, it was a lot of craziness. It was just a lot going on.
- [26:44]
A
Yeah. So what did you learn about modern relationships in that show? What did you take from that and extrapolate it into your practice?
- [26:53]
B
Yeah, that there's a lot of curiosity. And also people getting caught up in sometimes petty things, you know, really sort of focusing on the superficial, the surface. Fear of rejection, fear of abandonment. That was all. I mean, it was ripe in all of it. Fear of vulnerability.
- [27:10]
A
That's a big one.
- [27:11]
B
A big one. And they're playing it all out for the world to see on national television. And I felt like I couldn't. I could only just scratch the surface because there were so many dynamics at play, and I wanted to help each and every one of them individually because there's just also the options, which is what we're seeing, too. There were so many options to them. Everybody's hooking up with each other. It makes it confusing.
- [27:37]
A
Yeah.
- [27:37]
B
So if you feel like you like somebody and you're connecting with somebody, but you look over there, like, that person's attractive, too. I like their energy, too. And then it's like it distracts you. So then how. That's what we're seeing right now. It's like we're so distracted. We could have somebody fantastic right before us, but we're worried about what we're missing out on.
- [27:56]
A
It's like a dating app in real life.
- [27:58]
B
Yes. Yes.
- [28:00]
A
Yeah. I think the question then becomes, when do you, like. This is what people struggle with, I would guess. I've never been in the dating app life. Like, single and Using dating apps. But I would guess that you're like, well, how do I not know? How do I know this person is the best I'm going to get? And how do I know when to stop? Right. Because you're searching, searching, searching. You have a connection. But what if. If there's someone out there who I can have a better connection with?
- [28:22]
B
Here's the thing. It's like, we're bringing our own stuff. So in relationship is how we do our work on ourselves. It's not by being on our own and being single.
- [28:31]
A
Yeah.
- [28:31]
B
Our partners are reflecting back what is coming up for us. Like, our issues that we need to work on, which a lot of the time it's about, like, dysregulation, especially for men. Also with trauma. Like, anybody, any gender, there's like a lot of dysregulation. So it's about, like, is this person, like, what I always say is, does this person make you laugh? Do you have fun with this person? Do you respect this person? Do you have similar values, future goals, like dreams? Can they. Does that make like, are you on the same thing?
- [29:04]
A
Do they support your goals?
- [29:05]
B
Do they support your goals?
- [29:07]
A
Yeah.
- [29:08]
B
The rest of it, it's like, I feel like it's about having experiences of conflict, difficult moments, and seeing, can you stay in it, both of you? Are you able to. Is this person able? Are they resourced enough to regulate enough to work through and not flee?
- [29:28]
A
Right.
- [29:29]
B
Or fight.
- [29:29]
A
Right.
- [29:30]
B
Fight, flight, freeze. Which all of us. Right. Most of us have had trauma.
- [29:35]
A
Yeah.
- [29:36]
B
So there's like, if somebody's willing to do the work and they'll stay on the court and do it with you, that's somebody that's worthwhile. Doesn't matter who you keep swiping, you're gonna find everybody has issues. The question is their issues. Are they manageable for you? Can you stay grounded? And sometimes you're gonna lose your shit. That's just gonna happen. Totally normal. But in general, are you able to, you know, accept that these are some flaws that they struggle with? The hope is that you both evolve in the relationship, you both continue to do your own work. Because it's never just one person.
- [30:09]
A
Of course not. That's a big thing. I see. At least. I don't like therapies anybody, obviously. But I see in my friend circle or when people do vent, it's like, I actually have a friend who told me, I can't wait to take my husband to therapy so I can point out everything he does wrong. And I said, oh, my gosh I said, you know, they're gonna also point out what you do wrong. And she was like, you know, and then she's sort of like. And I started sort of, like, stopping herself. And I was like, yeah, it's. It's both. Right. It's not one. And I. I find that, of course you're going to vent to your friends about your problems, but I find that it's never like, well, maybe how could you change to make this a little easier? And it doesn't come easy, but we have to sort of look in the mirror.
- [30:51]
B
Yes. And we have to be willing to be part of the solution. Like, not just externalize it. Yes. Onto our partner. Because sometimes they need. They. We need each other's support to be successful together. Mm.
- [31:05]
A
Yeah.
- [31:05]
B
And the other thing is, they're not intentionally trying to be difficult. If they could do it better, they would.
- [31:11]
A
Yeah. Do you feel like people. I mean, I think I know the answer to this, but do you feel like people are giving up more easily now?
- [31:17]
B
Oh, my gosh, yes. Yeah, Rena. Yes, I do. And I feel like social media, TikTok and Instagram is not serving us. It is giving us so many. So much incorrect information that we are thinking we're so much more informed.
- [31:35]
A
Yeah.
- [31:37]
B
But it's just creating more and more obstacles, more fears.
- [31:41]
A
So much fear. So many.
- [31:43]
B
So we're walling up more and more. We're less accessible. It's like we're impenetrable at this point.
- [31:50]
A
Yeah. Because, I mean, for example, there's always these, like, joke now reels that I love. They'll be like, don't drink water because xyz. Don't breathe air because xyz. Because of all the stuff you hear. Right. They're making fun of, like, all these, like, conspiracy theories that people are putting out on social media, and it's because what? People are gonna listen. What? What did you just say? Because it's so interesting and so novel. It gets clicks.
- [32:15]
B
Yes.
- [32:16]
A
Right. And the same thing can go for when you're talking about relationships and how you should respond to relationships. Like how, oh, this happened to me. How dare this happen to me? Like, don't you realize how lucky you are to have me? And then be like, well, she thinks that. Then I should think that way too. Right. Or things like that. Right. Or even men saying, like, you know, like, this is how I expect my partner to behave or whatever it is. Right. And they're seeing these examples of people they look up to saying these things or people who look like you should look up to them for whatever model of appearances or whatever. And they're taking that advice and, like, internalizing it.
- [32:50]
B
Yes.
- [32:50]
A
And it's like five seconds of information. And so it's not like a deep dive into anything. Yeah.
- [32:55]
B
So, I mean, it's all. It's so left up to interpretation. But also, how do you know that's even true?
- [33:00]
A
Yeah.
- [33:01]
B
People are. They want clicks. They're saying things that they know are gonna give them clicks. So, like how you don't know anything about that person on a personal level?
- [33:09]
A
Yeah. I mean, it's interesting a lot. I've talked to a lot of fitness people on this podcast, and they tell me a lot of the people, a lot of fitness influencers are, you know, doing a lot of nefarious things, either doctoring their photos. They're taking, you know, medications or steroids or anabolics to achieve a certain appearance. Right. And they're acting like it's achievable to the normal person.
- [33:33]
B
Yeah. Or that it's natural and it's not using synthetics to get results. So I think there's a lot of smoke and mirrors that we need to recognize. And also the fact that even if we're not somebody who's easily convinced or gullible. Scrolling like again and right. We're on these feeds every day. Unconsciously, they're getting internalized. Like our unconsc brain, our unconscious mind is more active than our conscious mind.
- [33:59]
A
Yeah.
- [34:00]
B
Whether we recognize it or not. So it's. It's there and it's taking in that information, and it's changing the way that we think, the way that we behave, the way that we feel and we.
- [34:12]
A
Interact with our partners.
- [34:13]
B
And the way that we interact with our partners. Yes.
- [34:16]
A
Yeah. So tell me a story about a match that you had that someone who'd been, like, struggling for years, and then finally you got them a match that worked.
- [34:25]
B
Oh, my gosh. There's so many. The one that just popped, I'm just going to share. The one that popped into mine right now is a client who was a veteran military career military person and was a virgin and came to me. Like, I've never even made out with somebody. I recognize that I, you know, wasn't attracted. It was women. I wasn't attracted to men in general. Like, and I just. I was in the military. Don't ask, don't tell. So I just did my job and I kept pushing it down, pushing it down until, like, 30 years later, I realized I'm lonely. I want companionship. I want physical touch. Terrified about what that looks like. So with my support, we, you know, put. Put her through some, you know, she did extensive work with me for three years and then surrogate work. I don't know if you've ever had a serendipity.
- [35:20]
A
I haven't had one, but we'll talk about it.
- [35:21]
B
Yeah. Which is controversial, but my work as a clinical psychologist goes only so far. I can't touch my clients.
- [35:28]
A
Yeah.
- [35:29]
B
So I needed somebody to show her. How do you kiss? How do you move your body? Like, she was almost 6ft tall. How do you move your body around somebody else?
- [35:38]
A
Yeah.
- [35:39]
B
What's it like? What's it like to feel touch, to receive touch? What's it like to give touch? Because think about it. Somebody who's never had that to say to them, get out there, get on a dating app and go have some experiences.
- [35:50]
A
Especially when someone assumes that you've had experience because of your age. Right. Yeah.
- [35:55]
B
Overwhelming. That's like flooding beyond the nth degree. It's, like, so overwhelming.
- [36:00]
A
Any negative experience you have could just wreck you. Yeah, yeah.
- [36:05]
B
Like, so it was. It took like, three, four years. And the most exciting thing is that she did the work. She was terrified. And I was right there with her. I mean, it's so scary. Right. But she trusted me. So it's important to find somebody that you. That, you know, has got your back.
- [36:22]
A
Yeah.
- [36:22]
B
And they are very well trained. You know what I mean? They've done. This is not their first rodeo. So you can. When you get really scared, you can lean on that. Like, I know she knows what she's talking about. Even though this is scaring the shit out of me. She ended up. I ended up matching her. She ended up getting married.
- [36:39]
A
Amazing. To your match.
- [36:40]
B
To my match.
- [36:41]
A
Oh, my gosh.
- [36:42]
B
So that's the whole thing. It's like, you know, came to me with no experience and is happily married. It's been like four years now.
- [36:49]
A
Wow.
- [36:50]
B
Yes. So. And there are plenty of people that have come to me to think of one. I mean, there's so many that have come to me over the years where it's like I mentioned earlier, this pattern where they keep attracting and they're attracted to the same type of person, and they are thinking that the outcome is gonna be different each time, and it's not. So they come to me like, please change. Here's what's important to me. Go out there and pick people for me. And hopefully that will change this pattern.
- [37:19]
A
Because can they find themselves attracted to that person?
- [37:23]
B
So it takes a while. It takes time. Because neuronal pathways, right. Like neuroplasticity, our brains are flexible, they grow, they can change. And I explain that to them. So you've gotta be willing to be uncomfortable and you've gotta say yes more than no to dates. Cause if they, right away they hear something that doesn't fit their ideal, they're like, forget it. So I remind them, they're like, okay, fine, you're right, you're right. And they have to go again and again. It takes like, I wanna say it takes multiple dates and for them to be also putting themselves out there on their own and practicing the skills that we talk. Because it's like when I set them up with somebody, this is somebody who's like, they're hard to find.
- [38:04]
A
Yeah.
- [38:05]
B
So I want them to practice before they meet that person while we're working together. Like, get out there, go to social events, have your friends set you up on dates. I want them to practice the skills and the feelings that come up when dating. And because when I put them in front of somebody I've selected, they're smart, they're successful, they're relationship minded. They want, most of them want a monogamous relationship. Although we also are starting to match for poly and ethical. Non monogamy, that's a whole other thing.
- [38:34]
A
Oh, yeah, I would love to talk about.
- [38:35]
B
Oh my gosh, we could talk all day. Right? I mean, we grow with, you know, society and what folks are needing and wanting. So basically, I can't remember the initial question, but the point is that yes, it can change. They've got to, they have to stick with it and they have to be willing to be exposed to it. It's like taking another path.
- [38:55]
A
Yeah.
- [38:55]
B
I describe it like you're on a hike and there's one path you've been on again and again and it's smooth. There's no brush, there are no fallen trees that you have to climb up until the end. Until the end.
- [39:06]
A
Yeah.
- [39:07]
B
This one, you need a machete. You're gonna like, you're just gonna work with it and then it'll reverse and then it will be smooth.
- [39:14]
A
Yeah, till the end. To the very, very end.
- [39:17]
B
Yes, till the very, very end.
- [39:20]
A
Before we go on to the, the polygamy conversation, I want to talk about sex surrogates. What are they for our audience who doesn't know?
- [39:27]
B
Yeah. So a sex surrogate is somebody who is trained because now there are, there are trainings, there are certifications. So you want to have somebody who definitely has been educated and has some certifications. And they basically will step in the role of like a date, a romantic partner. So it can be like, with this client, I had her initially start with a date experience. So they met in a cafe, had a coffee. Right. And they slowly progressed into physical touch and deepening, you know, even intimacy and feeling. So it's somebody who can be, you know, physical, who can have sex, who. It doesn't necessarily mean they will.
- [40:07]
A
Yeah.
- [40:07]
B
But they are able to do that and give their client the experience of having, you know, physical intimacy, making out, like, all of those things, the things that I can't do. And they also understand somatic therapy. That's something really important, like helping the person notice what's happening to themselves physically and helping them to stay regulated, present, open.
- [40:31]
A
So, like, will they like, break out of character to teach them? Like, is it like, are they like acting like a boyfriend or girlfriend and then they will switch into a therapist mode? Or like, how does it work?
- [40:39]
B
I think it depends. You know, everybody has their own style.
- [40:42]
A
Sure.
- [40:43]
B
You know, and I think it depends on what they meet the client, where they're at. So it just, it depends on what they need. So somebody who's skilled and well trained will be able to show up in the way that the client needs them to and go from there.
- [40:57]
A
Yeah.
- [40:57]
B
So they do both.
- [40:58]
A
Got it, got it.
- [40:59]
B
Yeah. And hold on, one more thing. It's important. Everybody, every surrogate I've worked with insists that the client is also in therapy.
- [41:07]
A
Yeah.
- [41:07]
B
And they give me updates every week.
- [41:10]
A
That's great.
- [41:10]
B
I'm involved in the whole process. So I need to be in to understand what's happening. And that needs to be something that they prioritize. Otherwise I actually won't work with them.
- [41:19]
A
Yeah, yeah. No, that's so important. You've said it's evolved over time. And you, you know, you make a point to go with the evolution. So how has matchmaking evolved since you started? Like, how. What are the changes that you've seen in the needs of the clients?
- [41:33]
B
That's interesting. I feel like it's always been where people are hyper focused on physicality, you know, beauty, appearance. People always want to have somebody who's attractive. And oftentimes what I have seen is that they sort of. They want to date above them. They want to date somebody sometimes even outside of their lane. And it's like you've got to work on yourself to attract the person that you would want. You have to be that person.
- [42:00]
A
Yeah.
- [42:01]
B
Because anybody. That's amazing. Right. Is gonna wanna be with somebody. That's. When I say amazing, I mean, it's done a lot of work. So now I think the challenge more so is that this, what we're talking about is that people feel like there's something better for them. So even if they meet somebody they like, they're wanting to see who else I can find for them. The hamster wheel. They're just not getting off.
- [42:25]
A
Yeah.
- [42:25]
B
The beauty of matchmaking is that you have a finite number of dates and you have a freeze time. You have a certain amount of time that you can put me on hold and my team on hold to go date somebody exclusively. And it's not that long. And there's a reason for that, because we don't want people staying in something that isn't right for them long term, where they're just wasting time.
- [42:45]
A
Yeah.
- [42:46]
B
So it puts a little pressure on them because it's expensive. Matchmaking is expensive. It takes a lot of. It's emotional, It's a commitment, and we want to take you through the process so you're successful and not getting stuck. But, yeah. So that's it. They're thinking there's something better out there.
- [43:02]
A
And where are you finding the matches for them? Are they within your client base or you. Do you have other.
- [43:06]
B
That's a good question.
- [43:07]
A
Yeah. Everywhere.
- [43:09]
B
So, yeah. So I've built a network up over the last 17 years by doing television, by doing radio at a podcast. Podcast. Before podcasts were ever even really a thing. I had to let it go because I. Hardly anybody was listening back then because.
- [43:22]
A
Podcasts weren't a thing.
- [43:23]
B
They weren't a thing. But I wanted to do it. I was like, this sounds fantastic. It's another way to find potential matches anywhere we go. I collaborate, my team collaborates with matchmakers all over the world. There's like 225 that are part of this organization. We just got back last week from a cruise with a hundred and something of them. You know, we all network and former clients. Those are my favorites because they send amazing. Yeah. Wonderful, wonderful people to us for dates with our clients or potential clients. Anywhere. I am. If I'm at a fundraiser, a philanthropic event, I'm looking around like, who? If I see somebody that could be a match for a client, I'll introduce myself. And now what's really cool is that when I say I'm a matchmaker, my name's Dr. Frankie, they go, oh, my gosh. Like Jewish matchmaker or like millionaire matchmaker. They have references.
- [44:12]
A
Yeah.
- [44:13]
B
Seventeen years ago, when I would show up at events because I had no database. My database was five people and it was my friends, my single friends.
- [44:20]
A
Yeah.
- [44:20]
B
And people would go, you mean like Fiddler on the Roof, like you're a yenta?
- [44:24]
A
Well, it's sort of like that was it. That was the only reference, you know, Funny.
- [44:30]
B
So anyway, so it's every which way, you know, And Google people search now they know the word matchmaker, Matchmaking, speed dating. We have events all over the country. They'll look up, you know, dating events. And so it's every way people find us.
- [44:45]
A
And so do you. The people who want to be matches, like, they don't want to be. They don't want to be matchmaked, but they're open to being a match. How does that work for them?
- [44:52]
B
Yeah, get in. Visit our website, fill out a profile. I have learned I'm like an OG matchmaker, that people don't want to fill out a long form. Even though we want to have all this information for compatibility sake. It takes like three minutes because I only require very, very little information. Feel free to fill out more because it's helpful for us.
- [45:11]
A
Yeah.
- [45:11]
B
If you may be a match, me or it's not really me these days. It used to be somebody on my team is going to reach out and see if you're interested in scheduling a Zoom call. Because we meet everybody face to face. May not be in person anymore. It used to be in person on paper. Now we do it all on Zoom and we interview them. Like, compatibility. That's all these questions, like, what are you looking for? What do you know? What are your three deal breakers, non negotiables? What are your must haves? What do you like to do for fun? What's your religion? Are you. You know what I mean? Like, all of these questions, it's fun. That's one of my favorite things about my job because I get to hear all these just interesting things about people.
- [45:50]
A
Do you feel like meeting people on Zoom is enough? Like, because I sometimes feel like you can get to know a lot about somebody on Zoom, but there's that, like, in person mannerisms that you can't really.
- [46:01]
B
Get, you know, I think it's enough. I don't see that there's a difference in our success rate. It's been ranging from 83 to 85% for years.
- [46:11]
A
That's amazing, by the way. That's huge.
- [46:13]
B
Thank you. Thanks. I can tell you what I attribute that to in a second, but I don't. There's no difference in our success now that we've gone to video versus in person, Great. Video has allowed us to work with so many more people, so we've been able to scale. And I think it's about building a relationship, spending time, really getting to know people. And it may usually. It's about 90 minutes, sometimes even longer.
- [46:38]
A
Yeah.
- [46:39]
B
Yeah, that's.
- [46:40]
A
That's great. Why do you think you're so successful?
- [46:43]
B
Yeah. So everybody, including myself, is in it because we love it. We're passionate about what we do and we. We genuinely care about the outcome. We want our clients to be successful and we take the time and we build community and relationships. So I think that, like, I always say, like, do like with my children who are almost 21. He's got twins. It's crazy. I can't believe how old they are. But I tell them, don't worry about, like, because now they're focusing on what's the career going to be? What. What should I do? I'm like, figure out something that excites you and you feel passionate about. So that's what. That's why we're successful. So people know that they. If they come to me to work for my company, they know my mission. It's very like, you can tell that I'm doing something that I absolutely love. People who are not passionate about it don't. They don't stay very long. So there are. And also people who do stay have been with me for years. So that's why we're successful, because we care and we work our ass off.
- [47:44]
A
This is maybe controversial. Do you think AI will do as good of a job?
- [47:48]
B
No. No. AI doesn't have lived experience.
- [47:52]
A
Yeah.
- [47:52]
B
And it can't. You can't develop a trusting relationship with a robot. No. No. Not meaning.
- [47:59]
A
Not meaning yes. I guess you can't trust your matchmaker if they're a robot.
- [48:02]
B
Yeah, but that's what's happening now.
- [48:04]
A
Y.
- [48:05]
B
But what are you meaning, though?
- [48:06]
A
That's what I meant. I meant that, like, if AI is saying, hey, I have this database of matches, you fill out this form and tell me all your issues and we communicate. Right. Because chat bots can communicate. And I understand what you're going through. Here are people you should go on a date with, and it's like, whatever price. Which is like, nominal. Yeah. Right. And I'm sure it might help some people, but I wonder, like, is it. Do you ever envision a place where it could be trained well enough to do that?
- [48:33]
B
I think it's nuanced. What we do is so Nuanced and has taken me 17 years to perfect. And now I'm able to train my team. And it's not something I think a robot can do. And it's reminding me of the other day, one of my therapy. Because I'm a psychologist, I still have a therapy practice. It's small, but I maintain it because I love it. And she said, you know what? I've been using ChatGPT for therapy and I'm finding it like, I'm finding it really helpful. Dr. Frankie. And I'm like, but yet I'm like, that's interesting. I want to hear about that. Yet she's still coming to me.
- [49:09]
A
Well, also, I mean, the, the worry with that. I mean, I'm sure you've seen the articles, but like, ChatGPT is very positive, wants to be agreeable. And so if you're like, hey, maybe I should break up with my partner or maybe I should do something more Serious or dangerous, ChatGPT sometimes agrees.
- [49:26]
B
Yeah, yeah. Or that unconditional positive regard where it's just like validate, validate, validate, and not actually say here, here's where you may getting and may be getting in your own way. So, yeah, so this is. So just speak. I don't, I think AI can help, but I don't think it's going to.
- [49:45]
A
I think at this point in time, I would not recommend using AI for therapy. A hundred, like, I, I just want to be very clear, as a physician, as someone who cares about people, I don't think it's a good idea. Maybe it will change and be somewhat useful, but at this point in time, it's not there, it's not safe. I don't think it's a good idea.
- [50:03]
B
I totally agree. And one more thought I'm having is that right now the dating apps are using some form of AI.
- [50:09]
A
Yeah, they've been, they've been trying to do this matchmaking thing with connection. Not to my knowledge.
- [50:16]
B
So there's the answer. That's how I feel about it. No, I'm not afraid at all. And I just, just. Yeah. Will be here for many years to come. Yeah, undoubtedly.
- [50:25]
A
All right, let's, let's, let's talk about polygamy. Let's talk about how things are, what you're seeing in your clients and people who are. Is there like a rise in monogamous, you know, non monogamous relationships? Consensual? Non monogamy?
- [50:40]
B
Yes and yes and yes. And this is why we're beginning. I mean, for years, my company, we Just exclusively focused on monogamous relationships, exclusive and monogamous. And now I'm seeing that even in this heterosexual world and in the gay community they're exploring different types of relationships. So there's ethical non monogamous relationships that, where there's flexibility in what the relationships look like. It could be like there's a primary partner where they, you know, there's, there's openness around hooking up with other people and then there's polyamorous relationships where there can be a primary, that there's a secondary or a third and they're having full on love, you know what I mean? In like romantic relationships, ongoing and in love with multiple people. So yeah, it's happening. And people are recognizing that the divorce rate, which they've been saying is at like 50%, which I think it's higher at this point.
- [51:40]
A
It's probably higher.
- [51:41]
B
Quoting 50% for the last 30, 40 years. That's not. I'm seeing it way higher from what I. Obviously I don't have a cross section.
- [51:47]
A
Yeah.
- [51:47]
B
Of clients, but that would be my guess. People are trying something different.
- [51:52]
A
Yeah.
- [51:52]
B
Because monogamy doesn't work for everybody. It's not a one size fits all.
- [51:56]
A
Well, I think the other challenge with monogamy is people expect to get everything from one person and it's just not possible.
- [52:02]
B
No.
- [52:03]
A
Do you know what I mean?
- [52:04]
B
A lot of pressure.
- [52:05]
A
Yeah.
- [52:05]
B
On one person.
- [52:06]
A
It really is.
- [52:07]
B
Yeah.
- [52:08]
A
But I mean, I think you can. Yes. I think again, I think it just depends on what you're looking for out of your partner. And you know, if you. It's totally fine as long as everyone's happy. Do you find that these people who end up matching in polygamous relationships, let's say like living together. Do Are they successful in the long term?
- [52:27]
B
Some are and some aren't. I think that it's not for everybody and I think there are people that try it and find that they are so overwhelmed by fear of rejection. Fear of abandonment. Right. It's it. You have to be very comfortable in your own skin and you have to be really good at self regulation because your insecurities are going to get triggered. 100%. They're going to get triggered.
- [52:52]
A
Yeah.
- [52:53]
B
And some of us can tolerate that, you know, and some of us can't. Depending on our history back to attachment, experience of like what kind of traumas we've had and how badly we want that. You know, if we work at it, we're in therapy, we're doing all the things to take care of ourselves. Meaning like, right. Self esteem, self worth. Feeling good about ourselves is so important in knowing your value, then it, it likely will work out better for you. You also have to have good communication skills.
- [53:21]
A
Yeah.
- [53:21]
B
Think about you. If you're with multiple people, it's hard enough to be in one relationship with one person.
- [53:28]
A
I know, I know.
- [53:29]
B
You gotta want to process. Yeah, I know. For me, I don't, I don't wanna deal with that.
- [53:33]
A
It's a lot.
- [53:34]
B
I don't wanna deal with that. And I would be jealous and I would feel fear of, you know, my partner falling in love with somebody else. My constitution and my childhood is not, I am not set up for that kind of challenge. And I don't, I don't wanna do it to myself.
- [53:50]
A
Yeah. I have never thought about it with any degree of discernment, so I don't know. But.
- [53:56]
B
But it's happening and it's gonna increase.
- [53:58]
A
Do you, Are there people, when they come to you and say, like, hey, I want to build a polygamous relationship, and you're like, nope, I'm not the one for you to do that. Because you see that it's just like, destined for failure.
- [54:09]
B
No. So I'm like, I, I'm gonna say, I'll be honest with you. Like, I, I can support you in what you want, but I also need to be able to, at certain points, share with you if there are things that I'm concerned about that I'm seeing are maybe potentially going to harm you or, you know, so I'm very kind of open. I'm so open. I'm here, like, I'm here to really reflect back what I see that's coming up for people and to provide them an environment that is non judgmental, non critical, where they can be who they are and feel accepted and get support and provide tools so they can safely navigate this crazy thing called life. It's crazy. I'm like, I still get surprised.
- [54:53]
A
Yeah. All the time.
- [54:57]
B
I'm almost here 50 years. I'm like, well, I'm turning 49 in like a few weeks. And I'm like, I've been here a while. Like, why am I still surprised by things?
- [55:06]
A
I think, I think you'll always be surprised. I mean, when, when I heard there was things like furries in the kids schools, I was like, what? I was like, not to shame anyone who feels like that's them, but I just was very surprised.
- [55:19]
B
Yeah. And I find that all fascinating, interesting. And I'm curious.
- [55:25]
A
Yeah. Yeah, I'm curious. Right. And Surprised? Yeah.
- [55:29]
B
And that's fine. I mean, I think as long.
- [55:32]
A
Right.
- [55:32]
B
We're not judgmental. It's like, there are things that come up that are like, wow, that's different. I want to learn about that. Which is why I got my board certification as a sex therapist years later. I did it during the pandemic.
- [55:43]
A
Cause I'm like, oh, wow.
- [55:44]
B
Sex is so much a part of everything I do in my work. You can't talk about relationships and work with couples and singles and not talk about sex.
- [55:55]
A
Absolutely. So let's talk about sex. All right, let's do it. I want to know one. When you're meeting these new matchmaking clients, are people like, hey, I have this specific kink or this specific fetish or this specific thing I'm really into. And how do you, like, navigate that?
- [56:09]
B
Curiosity. Yeah, yeah. No, but meaning.
- [56:11]
A
Like, meaning, do you find them? Do you specifically find a match with that?
- [56:16]
B
Totally.
- [56:16]
A
Yeah.
- [56:17]
B
So if. If somebody says that they're really vanilla in bed, I'm not. We're not going to match them with somebody who's kinky.
- [56:23]
A
Right, right.
- [56:24]
B
You know, or into bdsm.
- [56:25]
A
Yeah.
- [56:26]
B
Because it's gonna be. Right. Incompatible.
- [56:28]
A
Yeah.
- [56:28]
B
If they're vanilla and they say, look, I haven't had these experiences, but I have a lot of fantasies and I'm very sexually open and I feel like I want to explore.
- [56:37]
A
Great.
- [56:38]
B
Well, then that's open. That's a possibility. This is the other thing I want to say for single folks. The more open people are, the more possibilities you have to connect. So as a matchmaker, when people are open when it comes to, like, sex and age and race and ethnicity and geography, it's like, thrilling.
- [56:58]
A
Yeah.
- [56:58]
B
Because then I'm like, here's a lot to work with, you know? But, yeah, I do. We look at. We'll ask, too. I mean, we will ask, are you, you know, what's your. I mean, how important is sex to you? And, you know, oftentimes they'll say it's sort of. They're like, should I give it on a scale? I'm like, no, just like, is it important? And. And if so, like, what. Is there anything that you enjoy that sort of, like non conventional or less traditional, or maybe you're in vanilla or, you know, into kink. And then they'll. They realize that, like, I can say anything. Yeah, yeah, they can say it. And before I even start the interviews, I often will say, look, there's no judgment here. Yeah, I've heard it all. It's been a long time. 25 years of being a psychologist is nothing you're gonna say is gonna shock me.
- [57:42]
A
Yeah.
- [57:43]
B
And then I say be very honest because as a matchmaker, if somebody's gonna tell me what they think I want to hear, that's not gonna help me support them in finding somebody that they can be successful with. So. But yeah, sex is, is a big part of the process.
- [57:58]
A
What is, is there something you heard that you literally had to like hold back, like a gut reaction until anyone ever told you?
- [58:09]
B
Yeah, there are things that people have told me where it made me like a little, a bit uncomfortable.
- [58:14]
A
Okay.
- [58:15]
B
I just try to like, it's because it's something I hadn't heard.
- [58:19]
A
Sure.
- [58:19]
B
More like that.
- [58:20]
A
Right, right. That's what I mean.
- [58:21]
B
It's not like, oh, gross or disgusting. It's more like, it's more just like.
- [58:26]
A
You've never heard that?
- [58:27]
B
I haven't heard that.
- [58:27]
A
Yeah.
- [58:28]
B
And I, and I try to. There have been times where I'll say, wow, I haven't heard of that. Like, tell me more. Tell me more about it.
- [58:36]
A
Yeah.
- [58:36]
B
And then there are other times where I'm sensitive to kind of their vulnerability where I may just not even say, sure, and I'll, you know, when it's appropriate. I will, you know, I will sometimes share my, my human experience.
- [58:50]
A
Yeah.
- [58:50]
B
But not always.
- [58:51]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So when people are, let's talk about, since we're on the topic of kinks and fantasies and fetishes. When people are wanting to try something new in a couple, in a relationship, how do they bring it up? I often find people like, they, they keep these things all bottled up forever and ever and ever. And I feel like in long term relationships, what often happens is people get into these sexual ruts. They do the same thing every time and it becomes sort of like eating chicken every day, you know, like you're just doing the same thing. It's still good, but it's not great.
- [59:23]
B
Yeah.
- [59:23]
A
And, and then, you know, maybe their desire for sex waxes and wanes because they're just not that excited to have sex. It's not sex worth getting excited for because it's the same thing every time. And really the answer to that is often incorporating some novelty to some degree. It doesn't have to be crazy, but how do you sort of encourage couples to get through that?
- [59:43]
B
Yeah, so that's a great question. Because it's so common, it's almost guaranteed that over time in a long term relationship, it's going to feel kind of monotonous routine you know, it doesn't feel as sexy anymore. You keep going back to the same thing. That works.
- [59:57]
A
Yeah.
- [59:59]
B
And the truth is, like, we think that the longer we're in a relationship, we can be like. We feel like we can be more vulnerable. It's safer, but actually, it becomes riskier to step away from what is familiar and consistent because we're afraid what is. What if we bring this up to our partner, are they gonna think that we're not happy with them and the way that we're connecting with them currently.
- [60:25]
A
Right.
- [60:25]
B
Or that we're like sex toys that come up. That comes up in my office sometimes where somebody will mention I want to use a sex toy, and it's like, wait, are you gonna. Is that gonna replace me?
- [60:35]
A
Right. Right. That comes up a lot.
- [60:37]
B
Right. That's a common one. So the way I would say. I would say that, like, this is, you know, first find out from your partner is like, there's something you want to talk about. It's not serious, and you're wondering because you don't want to shock somebody or surprise them. So just sort of give them a chance. Let their system get a sense. Okay. There's something that my partner wants to talk about. Let me know when there's a good time. Right. So in a relaxed environment, bring up. Just say, like, I've been thinking. I realize that I maybe have had some fantasies, and I wanted to run them by you and hear what you think about it. This isn't. I. It's not that I'm unhappy. I love you. I love us. I love what we have. But I'm thinking that maybe there are some things that we could explore. So it's not a dig on you. You know what I mean? It's not a criticism.
- [61:26]
A
Yeah.
- [61:27]
B
I think we also have a fear, like, by sharing with somebody, with our partner, like, that we have a fantasy. Maybe we have shame around it. There's all sorts of scripts that we have in our mind right from childhood, you know, that, like, wow, am I. Am I weird? Because I have this fantasy, Is my partner gonna love me less because I have it? Are they gonna think I'm all this kind of stuff? So, I mean, I think it's important to just say, like, I. You know, I'm being vulnerable here because I know it's important for our relationship, and I just want to deepen what we have. The other thing is, there's a yes, no, maybe list. Have you ever heard of that?
- [62:02]
A
I have heard of it.
- [62:03]
B
Okay, let's share it. So easy. Yeah. So you can suggest this exercise, which is basically yes to. Here are the things that I Absolutely. Hell, yeah. Hell, yes. That I would do. Absolutely. No, you know, activities. Sexual activities that I wouldn't do. And maybe. And find out from your partner what they're. You know, what they're into, what they would consider.
- [62:27]
A
Yeah.
- [62:28]
B
And then see if you can meet somewhere in the middle and explore. But you got to communicate.
- [62:33]
A
Yeah.
- [62:33]
B
That's how you. That's. That's the way you deepen intimacy.
- [62:36]
A
So how do you build that skill? Because we didn't get taught how to talk about sex.
- [62:40]
B
I know. That's why you and I do what we do.
- [62:42]
A
Yes.
- [62:42]
B
We talk about the uncomfortable things, and we get the reaction from the audience that is like, you're terrible. And I'm like, oh, I'm doing exactly what I need to do. I have to keep doing this. I think it's about listening to podcasts like this, recognizing that it's normal to have fantasies, to have erotic ideas and desires and a libido. And so to normalize that and to set an example, like, your partner didn't have it either. None of us have. And maybe to even just state that, like, this is hard for me to do, but I know it's something that's gonna. That's important. And I love you, and I want to be as close and intimate to you as I possibly can be, because you're my person. Hear me out here. You know, can you do this with me? Can we, you know, be in this together and give them time? Because some people just, like, I'm fast, quick, quick, quick. And I know, like, it's a New York thing. It's a New York thing. I think. So I reckon, like, my partner needs time, and I'm like, no pressure at all. Nothing needs to change. Let's just be open, you know what I mean? And explore. We don't have to do something right now. Just think about. No criticism, no judgment, no pressure.
- [63:56]
A
Yeah.
- [63:57]
B
Just curiosity. Lead with curiosity and love.
- [63:59]
A
Yeah. And I always tell people, like, it's gonna be awkward. Like, it's gonna be weird. It's gonna be. It's gonna go bad. Maybe even the first time.
- [64:05]
B
Yes.
- [64:06]
A
But you just can't give up.
- [64:07]
B
Yes. And then also lean on. Use support, Use a coach, use a therapist. There's so many people now that are like, that. Specialize in couples work that incorporate sex therapy. Make sure they have training, formal training, because there's a lot of people out there that are practicing that. Or armchair therapists on TikTok.
- [64:28]
A
No.
- [64:28]
B
Make sure that people are educated, have experience.
- [64:33]
A
A lot of people will make themselves sound like they have a lot of experience too. They'll be like, I've coached X number of people and they have no background, no education. They just started coaching and they're really good marketers.
- [64:45]
B
Yeah.
- [64:46]
A
So just be careful.
- [64:47]
B
Right. And they did a weekend course. No.
- [64:49]
A
Or not even.
- [64:50]
B
Oh my gosh. Yeah. Due diligence.
- [64:52]
A
Yeah, yeah. You've talked about some interesting things on your YouTube channel.
- [64:57]
B
Yes, I have.
- [64:58]
A
Your most popular videos are. Let's start with one about how to make analysis sex. Amazing.
- [65:04]
B
Yeah. Isn't that wild? That's my most popular.
- [65:07]
A
Well, I think you know what it is. Anal sex is popular. It's getting more and more popular and people don't know how to have anal sex. Right. They don't know how to start the process. So I think that's why. That's my theory.
- [65:19]
B
Yeah. It's also so taboo. And like.
- [65:22]
A
Yeah, yeah. It's like, oh, I gotta learn. Like even if they don't want to have it, they want to know, like, it can be amazing how you know.
- [65:29]
B
Yeah. And the negativity that I have, the comments really. Oh my gosh, so many. And I'm like, I don't think I.
- [65:34]
A
Read my negative comments.
- [65:37]
B
So smart. I just couldn't believe how popular it was. And I'm like, what are people saying? And that's why now I stopped, because I don't. Who needs that negativity? I see.
- [65:45]
A
We don't need that.
- [65:46]
B
So anal sex, so much pleasure to be had. Yes. But there's a way to do it. Right. I think first and foremost it's gotta. It. It sort of has to happen with somebody that you're familiar and comfortable with. Unless you have a lot of experience doing it where you sort of can run the show. I would say be safe by just making sure you're with somebody you're comfortable with, who you can communicate with. Because it's not like having intercourse. Right. Like our. And you probably can talk more about the, you know, anatomical specifics.
- [66:18]
A
Your anus doesn't lubricate.
- [66:20]
B
It doesn't lubricate. It's also a muscle, so it's really tight and we sort of have to train our body a little bit to relax and open up and it's a process. So lube. Lube.
- [66:32]
A
Lube, yes, lots of lube. And reapply lube if you use a water based one because it will evaporate.
- [66:39]
B
That came up and I heard one of Your podcasts. And you had mentioned that water based is better than synthetic. And I'm thinking for anal sex, it depends on what.
- [66:50]
A
What the purpose is. It's better for sensitive people sometimes.
- [66:53]
B
Yes, yes, yes.
- [66:54]
A
I think that's probably. They probably took a clip of what I said. Got it, Got it.
- [66:57]
B
Because allergic reactions. Right. The synthetic is harsher.
- [67:00]
A
Yeah.
- [67:00]
B
But it stays slick.
- [67:02]
A
Correct.
- [67:02]
B
Longer base. You gotta just. You better have that bottle right there to reapply. Reapply.
- [67:06]
A
Yeah, yeah. No, I agree with you.
- [67:08]
B
Yeah. So yes, a lot of lube and then also really slow. And you've got to be comfortable with the person you're with it so you can give them directions because we're all different. Our pain tolerance is different because there's some pain involved which can be really erotic and exciting and can also be a point where you've got to say, slow down. Right. Breathing is a part of it to relax your body, relax your muscles. So breathing, not being afraid to make sounds.
- [67:37]
A
Yeah.
- [67:37]
B
Which I know can be hard for people. Right.
- [67:39]
A
You know, it's interesting. There's actually. So when you orgasm, there is some involuntary intonation that happens. And so like you can't control it. So I find that so freeing to tell people, like, look, it's just. Your body's just gonna make a noise like you are going to vocalize in some way, shape or form oftentimes because it's just part of the orgasm process.
- [67:58]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm happy you said that. Yeah. The other thing is it can. I mean, you want to make sure that you're using protection.
- [68:06]
A
Yep.
- [68:07]
B
It can be messy. It can. You want to make sure you're safe. So, you know, condom, whatever fusing sex toys. You can put condoms over sex toy glove. You want to make sure that there's a base.
- [68:19]
A
A flared base.
- [68:20]
B
A flared base. People don't end up in the ER where they're gonna have to go fishing in there to get it out.
- [68:26]
A
Yes. And we. You should. You should see some of the things people come in with. It is really.
- [68:32]
B
Can you. Can you name one thing?
- [68:34]
A
Like a Coke bottle? Like, gosh, I don't know. There was something really crazy. That was like a glass. I forgot it was a light bulb and it broke.
- [68:44]
B
Oh, my gosh. Glass inside of them?
- [68:47]
A
Yeah.
- [68:47]
B
Did they. Are they. Were they okay?
- [68:49]
A
They had to have surgery, I think. I think they were okay.
- [68:51]
B
Okay.
- [68:52]
A
But you know, it. There's a. There's, there's like. Don't use household objects. Like use designed toys for anal play.
- [68:59]
B
Yes. And I always say quality, spend a little bit of money. You don't need a ton of toys. Buy good products. There's. There's, you know, good companies out there. Yeah, yeah. There's got to be that piece to pull it out because there's a suction. Suction. Yeah, exactly. And it just. All of a sudden, it's gone. It's now in your cavity.
- [69:18]
A
There's no cervix in there. Well, even sometimes, for. In some cases, women can get some, like, smaller toys stuck, too, because there is a little bit of suction. So, like, you have to, you know.
- [69:30]
B
Yes.
- [69:31]
A
Be careful.
- [69:31]
B
So be careful.
- [69:32]
A
Yeah.
- [69:33]
B
The other thing is that sometimes there can be bleeding involved. Right.
- [69:38]
A
Which is why a condom is so important.
- [69:40]
B
So important.
- [69:41]
A
Yeah. Because your risk of STIs is much higher.
- [69:44]
B
Yes. And then you want to be that. That's. It's just. It's gentle in there. Right. So you want to take care. You don't want to overdo it.
- [69:54]
A
Right.
- [69:54]
B
Because then it ends up a positive experience. Ends up being. It could, you know, being a negative experience that you may not want to do again.
- [70:00]
A
Yeah.
- [70:01]
B
It can also sometimes be messy. So you just. You want to be comfortable with the person that you're with.
- [70:05]
A
Right. Are there ways to do it that are more pleasurable than others? Are there, like, certain techniques or things that people should do?
- [70:13]
B
I mean, it's so personal. I always say move your body around, like, depending on. Try different positions.
- [70:20]
A
Yeah.
- [70:21]
B
Because you just never know. It's like, it just depends on your anatomy. So it's so. Exactly. It's so personal.
- [70:27]
A
Yeah.
- [70:28]
B
And explore and try different things.
- [70:30]
A
Don't be afraid. Right.
- [70:32]
B
Like, yeah, sex is beautiful and intimacy is beautiful. And I just, I'm very sex positive. And I don't think it's like a one size fits all. And also a lot of people are.
- [70:43]
A
Using porn as an example, which is not a good example.
- [70:47]
B
No, no, no.
- [70:48]
A
Yeah.
- [70:49]
B
So try to suspend. I tell my clients, just suspend that if you watch porn or stay, like, don't watch for a while.
- [70:55]
A
Right.
- [70:56]
B
And allow yourself to be the guide. Your body knows what feels good.
- [71:00]
A
Especially now. I mean, when we were younger, you had to find a magazine, you had to find a video. Like, now it's just too accessible. Right. I mean, it's too easy. And so it's really easy to get caught up in that, whereas I think it was a lot harder back then.
- [71:14]
B
Yeah. And what is. What is that doing to us? I just had a pot in an interview where they asked me if I Think that the exposure of all of this overstimulation sexual material, is it, is it causing erectile dysfunction? I think it's creating problems. If somebody is, you know, watching porn, that's their go to it Dep.
- [71:33]
A
I think it just depends.
- [71:34]
B
I think.
- [71:35]
A
Yeah. If they are using that as their only form of sexual stimulation and they are using it all the time and they're discrediting other things, I think it can be a problem. I think it can also be a problem when that's the only form of intimacy someone sees. And then when they're with their partner, like why am I not acting like that? Or why is my partner not acting like that? And then the psychological stress of that causes the erectile dysfunction. But I think porn can be a tool and it can be used in a very healthy way. And adults that can differentiate real sex from porn is fine. But that's, that's not necessarily who's seeing porn. I mean we know now like as young as 10 year olds and sometimes younger are seeing porn. So that's scary.
- [72:17]
B
Yeah.
- [72:17]
A
You know, and that's why I think there needs to be some, some sort of way to limit that. And I think they're trying to do age verification and things on in some states, but it needs to be national in my mind.
- [72:29]
B
Yeah, I agree. And moderation, moderation, like diversification, like mix it up. That can't be your only go to.
- [72:37]
A
Yes, I agree. I think it's better for you to use your fantasy or use something else sometimes. Right. Not all the time. You relying on the one way to get aroused because then you won't be able to get aroused in other ways.
- [72:49]
B
Yes. Yeah. The other thing about anal sex, aftercare so important so you know, make sure to, you know, state it like be affectionate afterwards being communication afterwards. You know, it's, it's intimate to share about what felt good.
- [73:05]
A
Yeah.
- [73:06]
B
If something didn't feel good, to share that. So that's noted for next time. Yeah. Not to forget about the aftercare.
- [73:13]
A
Absolutely, absolutely. And I would just say like if you haven't had it before, start with, with a finger or a smaller toy rather than going straight. For penetrative anal sex.
- [73:25]
B
Yeah. Because I think the body starts to get used to it and can handle it. Right. With some exposure over time.
- [73:31]
A
Yeah, absolutely.
- [73:32]
B
And it's familiar. And then you're like, okay, so now I know I have to breathe here. And you recognize that. Okay, my body's relaxing. You know, here's where, you know, we can insert this further. Like you're able to recognize what's happening, Right?
- [73:45]
A
Absolutely. The other very popular video that I think we should absolutely talk about is how to have a threesome because I think so many. This is a very popular fantasy. So actually I made a video on the top fantasies which I find so helpful. This is like population based data. But it's great to learn what they are and be like, oh yeah, my fantasies are pretty normal and threesomes are very popular fantasy, especially for men. And so I think like the reality of having one. How does it work? What's the best way to make sure it works out the way you fantasize about it?
- [74:18]
B
Okay, communication. Communication. Communication, Right. I mean that's the only way to make sure that your vision and how you fantasize about it is materialized and the possibility is even. It's even there or not. I mean, you're talking about and thinking you and your partner, for example, want to bring in a third. Is that what. Yeah, sure.
- [74:42]
A
Yeah, let's talk about that.
- [74:44]
B
So really sharing. Here we go. About, you know, hey, I have this fantasy. How do you feel about it? What's coming up for you about it? Are you open to it?
- [74:54]
A
Yeah.
- [74:55]
B
You know, what does it look like for you? Here's what it looks like for me.
- [74:59]
A
Right.
- [75:00]
B
Then, you know, I've worked with clients around coming up with sort of some sort of ground rules around it. You know, like people have specific concerns. You want to consider that.
- [75:14]
A
Yeah.
- [75:15]
B
And then how to. So would it. You have something in mind specifically?
- [75:19]
A
Yeah, I think just like so obviously communicating your needs, but then like in the act, like how do you sort of keep that communication going while making it still be arousing? Right. Because I think there needs to be communication during the act because there's multiple genitals, there's multiple people. And so there needs to be someone directing or somebody, you know, agreeing and vice versa.
- [75:41]
B
Yes. So I think that all we try to do as best as we can, discuss it beforehand.
- [75:46]
A
Right.
- [75:47]
B
But there are some things that will come up that are unpredictable. We may not be able to cover it all.
- [75:52]
A
Yeah.
- [75:53]
B
And where beforehand it's just. That's recognized. Look, something may come up here. Let's have a sign or you know, some kind of signal that means, okay, not comfortable, something that's subtle.
- [76:07]
A
Yeah.
- [76:07]
B
So it doesn't totally throw the mood off.
- [76:09]
A
Sure. Yeah.
- [76:11]
B
Right. And it may be the third person that they're bringing in doesn't necessarily. Do they need to be privy to that, that word. I don't know, what do you think?
- [76:19]
A
I Think everyone should have a way because they may start feeling uncomfortable. Like, they may start feeling like they're the odd person out.
- [76:26]
B
Right.
- [76:26]
A
And that may make them feel uncomfortable and like, should I leave? Should I stay? You know?
- [76:31]
B
Yes. So some kind of safe word that every. Everybody has access to and to be able to communicate and have that agreed upon before. Like, there needs to be conversation between all three people beforehand about, you know. Yes. No.
- [76:51]
A
What's gonna go where, who's gonna do what.
- [76:52]
B
Yes.
- [76:53]
A
Sort of thing. Like kind of envision what it's gonna be like before it happens and then that you follow that script to some.
- [76:59]
B
Degree and what's off the table.
- [77:01]
A
Yeah.
- [77:02]
B
Some of us are just like, some people just don't want to be their breast touched. Some people don't want to have anal sex. It just needs to be stated.
- [77:09]
A
So. Yeah.
- [77:09]
B
You're not in the act and surprised.
- [77:13]
A
Yeah.
- [77:14]
B
Yeah. And then feel. Right. All sorts of feelings come up, like shame and guilt and.
- [77:19]
A
Yeah, right. What is the worst sex or relationship advice that you've heard?
- [77:24]
B
If something makes you uncomfortable, to continue to expose yourself to it because you'll overcome that discomfort.
- [77:32]
A
So if something makes you uncomfortable, just leave it be.
- [77:34]
B
Yeah. Like keep. Keep doing it. Because then you'll eventually become comfortable.
- [77:39]
A
Yeah. You think that's bad?
- [77:41]
B
It's good in some contexts, not in every context.
- [77:44]
A
Right. So it needs to be taken with a sort of. You need to know what. How uncomfortable you really feel.
- [77:49]
B
Yes. Yes. And what, like, what's your motivation to overcome that discomfort? Yeah, exactly.
- [77:56]
A
Why do you want to do that?
- [77:56]
B
Yeah.
- [77:57]
A
And is that a good enough reason?
- [77:58]
B
Yeah. Like, are you. Are you wanting to overcome it for your. Are you doing it for somebody else? Right.
- [78:05]
A
Yeah. I would say mine is that if you like someone, sex should just be great.
- [78:11]
B
Yeah. Right.
- [78:12]
A
That's my worst advice, I think.
- [78:13]
B
Yeah.
- [78:14]
A
People think.
- [78:14]
B
Or.
- [78:15]
A
Or you shouldn't have to work at sex.
- [78:17]
B
Right.
- [78:17]
A
Like, it's just natural.
- [78:18]
B
Oh, my gosh. That's a good one.
- [78:20]
A
Yeah. Yeah, it's. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
- [78:23]
B
And it gets better with time because you get more comfortable. Absolutely.
- [78:27]
A
And there's. There's. There's data on it. So, like, when you look at studies of especially of women, they have the best sex. Their lives in their, like, 30s and 40s, because they are finally, like, free of all the body insecurities and. And they've had enough experience that they finally start feeling more comfortable asking for what they want in the bedroom and hope that may be older data, maybe that'll change now. You know, as Things have evolved, but yeah. So I think it's. It takes time.
- [78:53]
B
Yeah.
- [78:53]
A
To find your sexual self.
- [78:55]
B
I agree with all of that for sure.
- [78:57]
A
Yeah.
- [78:57]
B
Yeah. You start, you enter like your 40s, and you just don't give a shit anymore. You're like, you know what? This is who I am. This is the body I have.
- [79:03]
A
Yeah. Take it or leave it.
- [79:05]
B
Take it or leave it. Right. It's very liberating.
- [79:07]
A
Yeah. Looking back at, like, the thousands of people that you've taken care of over the years, whether it's through relationship therapy versus matchmaking, what is the single most common self sabotaging belief that people carry into relationships?
- [79:22]
B
Yeah. That they deserve more. This comes up all the time. Yeah. They have an idea that things should look a certain way. Their partner going back to the flowers should be do. Right. That they one. That their partner should be mind reading that they deserve these things. And what happens is they're set up for disappointment again and again.
- [79:46]
A
Right. Because no one can read your mind and no one can. I mean, you may deserve. You deserve love and respect and attention from your partner, but they may not know how to give you what exactly.
- [79:56]
B
You want in the way that you're looking for it.
- [79:59]
A
Right, right.
- [80:00]
B
It may, like, love languages. Right. Like, it may show up in acts of service.
- [80:05]
A
Yeah.
- [80:05]
B
Quality time. Right.
- [80:07]
A
And I would argue that your love language can change. That's true. I agree with you. Because I used to probably be more of a, like, gesture person, and now I'm more of, like an affection, like, you know, touch, love language kind of person. So I think it's changed over time because I remember telling my husband recently, I'm like, yeah, that's my love language. He's like, no, it's not. And I was like, yes, yes, it is. Now it is.
- [80:28]
B
Yeah. That's actually making me think, because I used to love receiving gifts.
- [80:32]
A
Yeah.
- [80:33]
B
And now it's like, it's about quality time and physical touch.
- [80:36]
A
Yeah, Same. So exactly the same. Yeah. You're currently working on a docu series. Tell us about that.
- [80:41]
B
It's such a fun project, and I'm really hopeful that it gets picked up because it needs to happen. It's something I feel so passionate about. So basically it captures the dating landscape today, whether you're heterosexual, whether you're practicing ethical non monogamy polyamory, whether you're a gay man looking for. Right. A gay partner, whether you're also, you know, transgender. Because we work with everybody, you know that. Within the LGBTQ community. And I also collaborate with straight Matchmakers all over the world. So it's a TV series that captures the struggle and the joys and just experiences that humans have dating across the landscape a whole range. So, yeah. And I get to kind of talk about the psychological piece. What's happening for folks as they're going through.
- [81:35]
A
Yeah.
- [81:35]
B
Feeling rejection, fearing vulnerability, disappointment. Like all the things that we're all experiencing as singles. Fear of being alone.
- [81:45]
A
Yeah.
- [81:46]
B
You know, so there's no show out there. It hasn't been done.
- [81:50]
A
It needs to be. It needs to be done because all we have right now is like, tick tock influencers talking about their life and either good or bad. Right. Their dating life. Mostly bad.
- [82:00]
B
Oh, my gosh.
- [82:00]
A
And how there's no good partners anymore.
- [82:02]
B
Right.
- [82:03]
A
Or there's whatever. Whatever it is. But it's a lot of venting about bad dates, which is not what we need.
- [82:08]
B
No Right. To hear. Positive, optimistic, hopeful. Because there's so many wonderful people out there that want to have quality relationships that are willing to do the work.
- [82:20]
A
Right.
- [82:21]
B
So it's not so doom and gloom.
- [82:22]
A
I hope so, because I have two sons and I really want them to get married and have kids. They're gonna be okay.
- [82:28]
B
Yeah.
- [82:28]
A
You know, I hope so. I really do. And yeah, I think we need a positive and a real discussion, not a biased one, like a real genuine discussion that covers all those things.
- [82:39]
B
Yeah. So the thing is, what sells right now, what people like watching is like the Bachelor and all these reality TV shows which are the farthest from reality.
- [82:50]
A
Yeah.
- [82:50]
B
They're curated. They're curated. They're totally curated.
- [82:53]
A
They're totally curated. They have a goal in mind. They have a story they want to sell. Like, it's curated.
- [82:59]
B
It's manipulated, it's curated. It's fantasy.
- [83:01]
A
Yeah.
- [83:02]
B
So, you know, I don't know, put, you know, I hope that we can put that energy out into the universe and have them pick it up, because it's a beautiful thing to watch.
- [83:11]
A
Well, look, I think the beauty of. I think we need a reminder about the value of relationships. Do you know what I mean? I think as you mentioned earlier, divorce is probably rising more above 50%. And I just feel like we are forgetting how valuable relationships are. Like, how valuable it is to have a partner in life that you go through your ups and downs with. The grass is not always greener on the other side. I mean, certainly, absolutely, there are some people where divorce and leaving a relationship is the right thing, but there's a lot of people where they're just like, meh, there's probably. The grass is probably greener on the other side. And it's not necessarily.
- [83:45]
B
No, you know, you just have. You're gonna end up having to do work on yourself and having to accept this other partner's shit.
- [83:53]
A
Yeah.
- [83:54]
B
It's just different shit.
- [83:55]
A
It's just different shit.
- [83:56]
B
It's different baggage.
- [83:57]
A
Yeah.
- [83:58]
B
So. Yeah. You know what? I love Love on the Spectrum. Did you ever see that?
- [84:01]
A
I heard of it. I never watched it. No.
- [84:02]
B
I always say we can take a page out of their real book, the neurodivergent Community, because they're so authentic. They just say it how it is. There's no ghosting. There's no acting as if they're having a great time on the date. They just say, oh, I'm bored. Yeah, I'm bored. Or, I don't see you as my boyfriend, but I'm enjoying your company. It's like, okay, great. Thank you for being honest.
- [84:26]
A
Yeah.
- [84:27]
B
So it's like. It's real like that. So that's my vision for the show, where it's just capturing real interactions, real fears, and, like, behaviors that people are unconsciously engaging in. And they don't have a name for it, and they don't know how to, you know, approach it differently or shift it. So there's a lot of learning to be had through the show.
- [84:52]
A
That's great. Well, I hope somebody picks it up.
- [84:54]
B
Yeah, me too.
- [84:55]
A
Maybe somebody listening.
- [84:56]
B
Yes. Yes, please.
- [84:58]
A
Okay, we'll go back to that question. So what is the most underrated sex or relationship advice?
- [85:05]
B
I would say sex as an opportunity for play, which can be kind of messy. Like you're in a sandbox and it's uncomfortable, and maybe you get sand in your eye or something. Or something. Right. We'll call it sand. Where you're not necessarily comfortable and you're trying something new, and there can be laughter and silliness. Us.
- [85:31]
A
Yeah. And you can fall and it's okay. And get back up.
- [85:35]
B
Yeah. And recognize that. And you. You verbalize that. Like, this is. This feels silly, but I'm happy to be able to do this.
- [85:41]
A
Yeah.
- [85:42]
B
With you.
- [85:42]
A
Yeah.
- [85:43]
B
I love that vulnerability. Right? Where does that take us? Vulnerability deepens.
- [85:47]
A
I. I argue a lot that you cannot have really great sex unless you're fully vulnerable.
- [85:53]
B
Yeah.
- [85:54]
A
You just can't.
- [85:55]
B
Totally.
- [85:55]
A
So, like, if you are not allowing yourself to be vulnerable in front of your partner, your sex won't be great.
- [86:00]
B
Yeah. Yeah, totally. I agree. So hard, though.
- [86:05]
A
It is very difficult. It is very difficult, but it's how you unlock good Sex. Yeah, Great sex.
- [86:10]
B
Yes, it's true. Because there's also. I know we're kind of talking on and on, but performative. Right. Like we're watching porn and it that we have this idea about how we should perform what's sexy and then you get out of being in your body.
- [86:24]
A
That's what's sexy. When you're actually mindful about the pleasure you're feeling.
- [86:29]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And sometimes we just have to keep bringing ourselves back. We get pulled out and just come back. I think it's normal.
- [86:36]
A
Yeah, it's just like meditation. Right? Like you. No one is really like clearly mindful the whole time they're meditating. But like, you just remind yourself and you go back. Yeah, yeah. Where can our listeners learn more about you?
- [86:49]
B
Oh, all over, you know. Visit littlegaybook.com, drfrankie.com we're on social media. I have a YouTube channel.
- [86:58]
A
We'll put all your links in the description.
- [86:59]
B
Yeah, yeah, that would be great.
- [87:01]
A
So we end our podcast with some questions we ask everybody. So what's something you know now that you wish you knew earlier?
- [87:08]
B
Sticking it out is well worth it. I think earlier on when relationships got difficult for me, I would be like, I can't handle this anymore. And I would bounce. But on the other side of all of those really difficult conversations, disagreements is a deepening that happens that it took me years to realize.
- [87:29]
A
That's good. That's good. What is something non negotiable that you have to do every day?
- [87:34]
B
I work out every day.
- [87:35]
A
Really?
- [87:36]
B
And I lift a lot. No rest days, so usually active rest. So I'll rest one day a week. That's so good. That's right.
- [87:42]
A
You're a doctor.
- [87:43]
B
I rest one day a week.
- [87:44]
A
They have to repair.
- [87:46]
B
I know, it's so true. Yeah, So I learned. It took me a long time to really recognize that too. Yeah. I work out five days a week and that's great. Yeah.
- [87:55]
A
Yeah, I love that. What's a life hack or health hack you'd share with our audience?
- [87:59]
B
Sleep. Yeah, Sleep, sleep, sleep.
- [88:02]
A
So important.
- [88:03]
B
Oh my gosh. It's everything.
- [88:05]
A
Yeah, everything. I know. I just, I. My son this morning, he slept pretty well last night and he wakes up and he goes, mommy, I feel strong. I think I slept enough. And I was like, thank God. Because, you know, they just, they try to stay. They share a room, the two boys, they'll stay up and talk, talk, talk. But last night I like got them both to go to sleep at a reasonable time. And he's like, I feel strong.
- [88:27]
B
That's awesome. And I think. I feel like you can instill that value early on.
- [88:31]
A
Yeah, it's important.
- [88:32]
B
It's important.
- [88:33]
A
It's really hard because we're the only species that fight sleep.
- [88:37]
B
Yeah.
- [88:37]
A
You know that?
- [88:38]
B
I didn't know that.
- [88:39]
A
Yeah, we're the only species that does that. Like, we actually will actively be tired, but we'll, like, try to do not sleep.
- [88:47]
B
Yeah.
- [88:47]
A
Interesting.
- [88:48]
B
Yeah.
- [88:49]
A
It's crazy. If you couldn't be psychologist, a matchmaker, a sex therapist, or be on tv, because you sort of did that too, what would you be?
- [89:02]
B
Oh, my gosh.
- [89:03]
A
A rock star.
- [89:04]
B
I'd be a performer and a singer.
- [89:06]
A
Amazing.
- [89:06]
B
Like badass. Like Pink.
- [89:08]
A
Yeah, I could see that.
- [89:09]
B
She's so rad. She's so amazing. Yeah. Yeah. I want to be here one day.
- [89:14]
A
Well, thank you so much. It was a pleasure to have you, Rena. Thank you. You're welcome.
- [89:17]
B
So fun.
- [89:18]
A
Guys, if you love this conversation as much as I did, do me a solid favor. I need you to go to your favorite podcast platform and hit subscribe or follow on the podcast, because this tells Apple and Spotify and these other networks that, hey, my podcast is worth listening to and other people should know about it, so they share it with other people, and it keeps me at the top of the list for our podcast. So if you guys are enjoying it, do me this one favor, and I will greatly appreciate it. And as always, remember, take care of yourself, because you are worth it.