Nathan W. Bingham (8:32)

You mentioned the first question, which the first question and answer is perhaps the most well known. What is the chief end of man? Why did they begin there?

Sinclair Ferguson (8:42)

Well, because that's the great question, isn't it? And the other interesting thing about many interesting things about catechisms, but one of the challenging things is how do you ask the right question? Because the right question actually depends on the right answer, not the other way around. So unless you know what is absolutely central, you can't actually ask the central question. But then the next question is, how does the answer lead on to the next question. And I think that's the genius of the question and answer number one. Man's chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy him forever. And there they are, partly resting on a, a tradition of theological thinking that, for example, you get in the opening chapter of Calvin's Institutes. So what is life all about? Well, life is about the knowledge of God and the knowledge of ourselves. And these two things belong together. And that's what the catechism is saying in some ways in an even more wonderful form by saying what our life is about is about God and what God's purpose for us is, is that we should actually enjoy Him. And when you think back to the fact that this catechism was written by the people we nowadays call the Puritans, and most people have a very fixed idea of what Puritan is. You know, tall heart, dark clothes, stony face, very severe, certainly doesn't want to enjoy life. But they wrote our chief end, that is this is what we are for, is actually enjoyment and supremely the enjoyment of God. And then also the notion that we can't actually fully enjoy this world, even in its fallen condition, unless we first of all enjoy God. But then when we enjoy God, we are able to enjoy the world that he has made and enjoy each other.

Nathan W. Bingham (10:59)

Many people think of a catechism as a tool for children. But can catechisms be used even for lifelong discipleship?

Sinclair Ferguson (11:07)

Yeah, I think that's a great question, Nathan, because actually the Shorter Catechism was written for younger people. The larger catechism was written for people like ministers to learn. So it was like a next stage. But I've quite often said, usually fairly quietly, I suspect that a 13 year old boy in the Highlands of Scotland in the late 17th century would be able to articulate more theology clearly than, than many seminary graduates from many seminaries would be able to do. And when you think about, I mean, I think nowadays I sometimes say one of the things we need to help our young people to do is to out think their contemporaries, to outthink them. And that's one of the things that the Shorter Catechism enabled youngsters, you know, historically it was probably used more in Scotland than anywhere else. For historical reasons it wasn't used very much in England, although it was written there. Now of course it's used all over the world because largely through Presbyterian churches. But I have sometimes thought this sounds very ethnically oriented, but you know, books like how the Scots Invented Almost Everything, that kind of thing, when you look back to that period of history. And there was a period of history when the Scots did seem to invent almost everything. And to a certain extent, it has continued into the present age. But it's fascinated me that that was an era when a large percentage of Scottish boys were taught to memorize the Shorter Catechism. And you think, well, what has that got to do with engineering or with science? This is what it's got to do. It helped them to think clearly. It helped them to think and ask the right questions, to probe reality and to listen to the answers that reality gave. And so I'm convinced, and I think it's not only Christians that have wondered about this, that that tool that taught young Christians how to think clearly was also what we would nowadays call a transferable skill. And so putting it into the lenses of young people wonderfully equipped them to live in the world that God had created, to listen to what the world said, you know, as young scientists or engineers, and then to formulate what they could do with this world according to the principles of the world itself. I sometimes think, I wonder, if we would have had AI and such things earlier, if Adam and Eve had not sinned, would they have been able to listen to the world better? And to use, you know, we have created nothing. I mean, we speak about creating things like that. We create nothing. We are engineers, always engineers, using what God has embedded in the world that he's made. I mean, I think of some stories I know from just my own experience in life, of what a remarkable instrument it's been in the lives of people who have, even if they've not memorized the Shorter Catechism, they've learned how to think theologically and logically by using the Shorter Catechism.

Nathan W. Bingham (15:03)

How does committing these truths to memory help shape our hearts and not just our minds?

Sinclair Ferguson (15:09)

Yeah, in my lifetime. So I would say, you know, at home in the United Kingdom, evangelical Christians suffered at the hands of secular psychologists who taught two things. One, if children learn things by rote, that's not a good way to instruct them, and B, to teach them a system of theology is a very bad thing. And yet, having said that, that's what was happening in the secular world. The way people learn baseball statistics, cricket statistics, they may not notice it, but they learn these things by rote, the way people learn computer lang. And so there was a default here between how people thought in secular terms and how they thought about the spiritual and intellectual nourishment of children. And so introducing catechism back into the lives of Evangelical Christians was like one of the most difficult cells in the world. And I think there was therefore a whole generation that suffered pretty badly because it reared young people who weren't able to outthink their peers and who thought, if I can use the same verb, that thinking was no part of the Christian life. I remembered the late John Stott saying that he thought he lived in a generation where evangelicals thought that when you come to church, you take your head off, and the big thing is how you feel and what you like. And you can see how that way of thinking and people who didn't think that thinking was important were thinking to think that all the time, reared a generation of Christians for whom what I like and how I experience is the big thing and not what God likes and what God says. And into that generation, I think it was a pretty hard sell to say. You know, I think you are saying catechisms don't work because we've never tried them. And so I think many, many Christians of my generation probably only discovered catechisms later in life. And then they discovered that when it's embedded in your mind, that what I am actually for is to glorify God and to enjoy him forever, that really makes a difference to the way you live. It actually makes a huge difference the way you feel about God because it tells you you're meant to enjoy God. And that's a different thing from what that generation had such an influence in the Christian church was saying, what I'm for is to enjoy myself. Which in essence was to mean that you were cutting the source of real joy out of your life. So the impact of that one statement on people's psyches, their emotional life, was colossal. You know, to me, one of the greatest stories that ever been told about the Shorter Catechism is in an essay that The American theologian B.B. warfield tells in a little tiny essay he wrote, I think it's called Is the Shorter Catechism Worthwhile? And he tells this story that I think may come from the Civil War period or, depending on where you live, from the War between the States. And he tells this story about a man who was in a Midwestern city which Warfield says was in a state of unrest. And he's just walking down the street, and there's a man coming towards him that he describes, as the way I would put it is, clearly this man had presence. And as this man's walking down the street, people are kind of. They stop and stare at him. There's just something about him. And as the man comes towards him. You can imagine the scene. This man is thinking, you know, the last thing I should do here is stop and stare. But as the man passes him by, he finds himself like a magnet drawn to look back on him, assuming he'll see his back. And to his horror, the man has actually turned around and is coming up to him. And you can think, what's he going to say to me? Taps him in the chest, and he says to him, what is the chief end of man? And relieved, this man says, it's to glorify God and to enjoy him forever. And the man says to him, I knew you were a shorter catechism boy by your looks. And the fellow says, you know, that's exactly what I was thinking about you. Now, the power of that story to me lies first of all in the fact it was true. Second in the fact that we tend to laugh at it today and to think that's a fairy story. And the reason for that is because we don't have what these men had and recognized in each other, that when that truth influences the way you think, therefore influences the way you feel, therefore influences the way you live, therefore influences the development of your character, Christians become people who have. There's a presence about them. And I've often thought, I think, because occasionally it has actually happened in situations where I'm still puzzled how it happened. People will have said, are you by any chance a Christian? I remember we stopped on the road one day in Scotland because there was a lady, an elderly lady, and we could see she was standing beside her car off the highway. And we stopped to see if we could help in any way. And after a minute or two of conversation, this lady said to me, out of the blue, she said, are you a Christian minister? It was like if she'd said, are you an angel? I wouldn't have been even more surprised. And I think, why does that not happen more often in a world where Christians are so much a minority culture, is there not more about us that smells of the glory of God for people to notice? And so, I mean, even in kind of minor experiences like that. And I confess, I think maybe to my shame, it's happened a few times, but not all that often. And I thought, oh, that story really is true. There should be something about us that is so different, that even if people don't understand it, they see that there is a difference. And in a sense, everything is wrapped up in that first question and answer to Shorter Catechism. So, I mean, it's is fantastic. Really?

Nathan W. Bingham (22:50)

Well, it makes me think of Peter in 1 Peter 3:15. Always be ready to give a defense for the hope that's within you. There's this assumption that people will see that there is something different.

Sinclair Ferguson (23:01)

Yeah, I mean, I've just often thought this is really interesting because I guess in my earlier years one of the great techniques for evangelism was to go out into the streets and saying we're just taking a survey of what people think. And I was never very comfortable with that because I thought that's not really upfront about what you're doing. You know, you're not really being honest with people. And then as I thought about it, it dawned on me we're doing the very opposite of what Peter expected. We are in a situation where we've got to ask non Christians questions. And the assumption behind that is they're not going to be asking us questions. Whereas the assumption behind what Peter says is Christians are going to stick out, like, excuse the expression, sore thumbs in the world. Not because they're, you know, they're using hammers on their thumbs, but just because we are different. We belong to a heavenly citizenship. There should be something about us that makes people think, whether because of intrigue or because of irritation, why is it that he or she is different? And going back to the first question, we're not going to get back past the first question, are we really is because we're living for completely different motivations and ends. Our end. Our goal is to glorify God and to enjoy him forever. And one the non Christian thinks glorifying God is the abolition of my joy, whereas the catechism is teaching us no, that's what gives us joy. And the other thing that I think many non Christians think is there's no way I would become a Christian. It is a joyless life. And the catechism is saying no, actually it's the very reverse of that. It is truly the joy filled life. Now, I'm Scottish, right? So I sometimes have to say we Scottish Christians enjoy this so much, we don't want to waste our energy showing it by smiling all the time. But you know, that joy does not need to be like obnoxious, happy, happy, happy, but just a something about us. So, you know, you've maybe heard me say, when we lived in Texas and in South Carolina, I loved riding on the elevators, what we call the lifts, I don't know what they call them in Australia, the lifts, and just engaging with conversation. And then when it came to my floor to get out, whether I was going up or down. So sometimes people puzzled by the accent would say, well, where do you come from? And I would always step out of the elevator at that point and then turn around and say, columbia, South Carolina, as the doors were closing, and see, like, there's something I'm not getting here. And I've often thought that's how we should be as Christian Christians. There should be a kind of, so where do you really come from? What makes you tick? When John says in 1 John 3, what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us that we should be children of God? Literally, the question he's saying is, from what country does this love come from? Is like, this is from another country, another world. And we're back to question and answer number one again. It's really, you know, even if you just learned to live by that question and answer, you would have learned a great deal.

Nathan W. Bingham (27:03)

I'm speaking with Sinclair Ferguson about the Westminster Shorter Catechism. If you'd like your very own copy of this newly published edition from Ligonier Ministries will send you a copy when you give a donation in support of renewing your mind@renewingyourmind.org well, Dr. Ferguson, I'm going to try and move on from the first question. Okay, I'm going to jump to question and answer number four. What is God? God is Spirit, infinite, eternal, and unchangeable in his being, wisdom, power, holiness, justice, goodness, and truth. This is such a beautiful and concise answer. Why is it so vital for Christians to understand the attributes of God?

Sinclair Ferguson (27:48)

Well, that itself is a profound question. And just as a rabbit trail, the best catechists not only asked the question, but also asked your question. So they followed up with it. And that, I think, made for them, for parents, the catechism a really helpful teaching tool because it was a start. And I think the answer, obviously, to that question is just to put it in biblical terms, for example, what Jeremiah 9 says, don't let the rich man boast in his riches or the strong man in his strength. But if you're going to boast in anything, boast in this. That you know the Lord and Jesus says this is eternal life, that they might know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. Which in my lifetime actually has become a revolution in the evangelical world, because I would say until maybe even until about the mid-1960s, evangelical faith was not really thought of in terms of knowing God. It was thought of in terms of experiencing regeneration and new life. And of course, that is genuine Christianity but it's rooted in the knowledge of God. And the importance of that is because unless we know God, we can't really reflect him to the world. And in some ways I would rather they had asked the question who is God? But the answer to that question would be in terms of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And so that question, they're really saying, so what is God like? Justify if somebody said to me, what is Nathan W. Bingham like? I could say, well, he has the following attributes, they are inseparable from him. He has an Australian accent, he's about nine foot tall, he works out in the morning because I saw him this morning with a perspiration filled T shirt on. And yet I could go through your characteristics. I won't embarrass you by doing that, but that's how we think about people. I sometimes say, I like people with horns and I don't mean bullish people, but people that you feel you can tell who they really are because they have these certain characteristics. They're not bland. And so with some people you feel, I don't really know who he is or who she is. And so what the Westminster divines were actually saying to us there is here are the things about God that you can know and rely on. These are ways into thinking, well, what is he really like? And the wonderful thing I think is he has all of these attributes. He's all of them simultaneously. And at the end of the day, these are not like seven or eight different sticky notes on God. These are, as it were. Seeing that God is so great, we've got to use all of these descriptions which we use seriatim, that is to say, one by one. But they're all different ways of looking at the same person of God and means by which we can get to know him so that we know he is holy, we know he is infinitely great, we know he's also kind and generous, and he's all of these things all of the time.

Nathan W. Bingham (31:50)

If you were to pick one question and answer from the Shorter Catechism, aside from the first question and answer that has perhaps been profound in your life or something that has been meaningful in your life or ministry, what question and answer would you select?

Sinclair Ferguson (32:05)

Boy, that's a difficult one. I do like the question. I mean, I like all the questions, but I think one question answer that is really helpful for people is the question on justification. I mean, I remember somebody telling me, if you want to define justification, it's just as if I'd never sinned, justified, right and I remember thinking, that's. That's quite clever, and then thinking, but it's not clever enough. But many Christians think that's what justification is. It means your sins are forgiven. And it does mean that. But if that were all justification meant, then in a way, you're back with Adam in the Garden of Eden. It's as though God is giving you a second chance to keep what the Westminster assembly calls the Covenant of Works. You're on your own, pal. And so I think it's so helpful that the Westminster Confession and the Catechisms emphasize that, yes, on the one hand, it's the pardon of your sins, but it's also you are now accounted righteous in Christ for Christ's sake. And that means if I'm accounted righteous in Jesus Christ, the righteousness I have standing before God is as perfect a righteousness as Jesus righteousness, because it is his righteousness. And one of the ways in which I think that is helpful to us is because I've had this sneaking suspicion that, that many Christians think that justification is something that happens in them, that the righteousness is in them, and don't realize, actually that is medieval Catholicism, that righteousness is infused into you. And what the divines are emphasizing there is no the only righteousness you ever have is not in you. If you depend on any righteousness in you, you are a goner. And that question, then, I think does something very important. It teaches me to live the Christian life from the objective to the subjective. It teaches me to look out, away from myself to Christ, who is my righteousness. And then when I look out to Christ as my righteousness, not only in the sense that in Him I have forgiveness of sins, but also in Him I'm clothed in his righteousness. That's what brings me assurance. And when you think back to the pre Reformation teaching of the Church, which was at baptism, there's a righteousness infused into you. You keep on losing it, I'm simplifying it. But the sacraments kind of help you to recover it. And if you cooperate with that sacramental grace, eventually there may be produced in you a righteousness that is so righteous because your faith is suffused with a love for God that is perfect, that then you actually become justifiable. So you are justified by grace. They would have said, they would have insisted it's by grace on the basis of your cooperation with sacramental grace, producing within you a righteousness that's created, yes, by grace that makes you justifiable, which is the reason why, by and large, in the medieval church, assurance was both denied and discouraged. And why the Reformation was such an explosion, because people realized, but if our justification is in Jesus Christ, then we can be assured of our salvation. We can be assured that we have a righteousness that is as righteous as his righteousness, because it is his righteousness and it's perfect, it's irreversible, and it's ours through faith. We make no contribution to it. We receive him and we receive that righteousness. And that was why there was such a bursting forth of assurance. And I find, I think many Christians, it's just at that point that things begin to go wrong in their Christian lives and they turn back in upon themselves and they lose both the joy and assurance of the Christian life because they're actually looking at the level of their sanctification for their assurance of justification. And in a sense, they've turned the Gospel on its head, clearly without realizing it. Because if you said, what is the gospel? Hopefully they would not say the Gospel is I have done enough. But that Christ has done everything. But how we articulate our theology and how we actually experience the Christian life sometimes can be very different. And so that's one of the questions that I mean, going back to your asking another question beyond the question of question number four, that pastorally in homes and families as well as for catechists and ministers, the. The Catechism became a real tool to explore the Christian life and Christian faith in a very comprehensive way.

Nathan W. Bingham (37:58)

There are so many beautiful theological truths in the Shorter Catechism. And you have given our listeners a sneak peek if they haven't read the Catechism before, of just some of those, at least from a couple of questions. If one of our listeners is thinking, I'd like to get a copy of the Shorter Catechism, but they've never read it before. They've never catechized or done memorization with their children. What encouragement or counsel would you give them? Where should they start if they wanted to implement the Shorter Catechism in their life or perhaps in their family?

Sinclair Ferguson (38:30)

Yeah, I think the first thing to do is to get one. And I mean, it's conceivable that somebody listening to our conversation might think, got to get the Shorter Catechism. I've got to charge full ahead. We need to be patient, take our time and read it for ourselves and take time to taste it. Take time even to notice the questions that you find particularly helpful, the answers you find particularly helpful, and you know, different ways of making your coffee. There's the French press. You know, I'm in a hurry. Boom. And then there's the drip feed. And I think usually the drip feed method in learning something new is better. And then, if I may tell another story, our church had a youth staff. Youth staff go away a couple of times a year with the young people weekend away, some of the parents there as chaperones. One weekend after the youth retreat, this story filtered through to me that at the end of the day, the youngsters were sitting around with a couple of the parents who were there as chaperones. And end of the day, they're full of questions, probing questions. And one of the parents is answering these questions very patiently, question after question after question. When the youngsters have gone away, the other parent says to them, how on earth were you able to answer all these questions? And the first parent, according to the story, to smile says, you know, all the answers are in the Shorter Catechism. And I thought, that's really impressive and so encouraging to think that here is a document, you know, with, you know, 100 plus questions. And it gave this parent the equipment to help these youngsters to think better about the Christian faith. And, you know, as I've said probably a couple of times in our conversation, to learn to outthink their peers. And I'm just increasingly convinced that in the world in which our youngsters are now being reared, the ability to outthink and outlive their peers in a genuinely gracious Christian way will make our youngsters really stand out and point others to the Lord Jesus in wonderful ways.

Nathan W. Bingham (41:06)

Is it fair to say if a Christian parent is not catechizing their child, somebody is?

Sinclair Ferguson (41:12)

Yeah. And one of the things catechisms teach us in helping us to think clearly is to realize that that's the case, that actually our youngsters are being catechized by those household gods they hold in their hands. And you see them adoring that household God everywhere they go. And that household God in not a few occasions is actually being controlled by secular catechists, some of whom are determined to master their minds. I mean, I remember when some of the gender issues began, my wife saying to me, you know, the word on the street is, we don't want to trouble anyone. We're just looking for equality. And I remember she said to me, you know, it's not equality they're looking for, it's domination. And this isn't going to affect anyone, you know, and it's affecting the children in elementary school. It's affecting states, it's affecting government. It's affecting our world. And it was all taken in because people were not able to think clearly. And however we do it, however we do it, unless we catechize our children, we will be handing them over to the catechists of the world. And the catechists, some of the catechists of the world are clearly determined that you will think this way. So when I was a youngster, I remember people of my parents generation lamenting what was happening in the Soviet Union, how unless you thought a certain way and conformed a certain way, there were jobs that you would not get, there were educational opportunities you wouldn't have. And it was lamented and now it's actually come true. In the Western world, there'll be areas of medicine and science and education that are being closed down to people because they have Christian convictions. So much so that I think in some places the ultimate sin is to have Christian convictions. And that means, I think if we are teaching the Shorter Catechism, the challenge to us as catechists, as parents or ministers or whatever, is that we actually live it out ourselves.

Nathan W. Bingham (43:48)

Well, Dr. Ferguson, thank you for your time today and I really trust that giving our listeners an insight into the Shorter Catechism will be a great encouragement and I look forward to seeing many families using it.

Sinclair Ferguson (43:59)

Well, thank you for having me today.

Nathan W. Bingham (44:08)

I so appreciate Sinclair Ferguson's insights and the reminder that this conversation was for me as to the importance of catechesis and the skill behind the writers of the questions and answers in the Westminster Shorter Catechism. This is the Friday edition of Renewing youg Mind. I'm Nathan W. Bingham. If you'd like Ligonier's newly published edition of the Westminster Shorter Catechism, we'll send you a copy today only when you donate at renewingyourmind.org or when you call us at 800-435-4343. I encourage you to take Dr. Ferguson's advice, read it for yourself, take note of the questions and answers you found helpful, and use it with your children, with someone new to the faith or Reformed theology, or even as devotional material to keep central truths of the Christian faith in the forefront of your thinking. Visit renewingyourmind.org or use the link in the podcast Show Notes. And if you live outside of the US And Canada, the ebook edition is waiting for you@renewingyourmind.org global. But be quick as only hours remain for this special resource offer. Who is God? What do the names of God mean throughout the pages of Scripture? Next week, RC Sproul will answer those questions as you hear messages from a series that hasn't featured on Renewing youg Mind for almost two decades. So on Monday, we're going back into the archives. Be sure to join us then here on Renewing youg Mind.

Sinclair Ferguson (45:58)

Sam.