Nathan W. Bingham (3:00)

The Owen set is mine. I loaned it to him.

Derek Thomas (3:05)

It looks red from COVID to cover.

Nathan W. Bingham (3:08)

Yeah, you should see the margin notes. And we have the Thinker over there as well.

Derek Thomas (3:13)

Yes. And you were telling me that the Thinker was in RCS teaching a lot, especially perhaps in the early days.

Nathan W. Bingham (3:24)

That's right. That's right. So I'm thankful that Mr. Sproul let me borrow that to put it here.

Derek Thomas (3:29)

And since this is renewing your mind, it seems appropriate that the Thinker should be here.

Nathan W. Bingham (3:36)

That's right. Well, be sure to subscribe to the Renewing youg Mind YouTube channel so you don't miss special opportunities like tonight. And remember that when you like and comment on each day's video, you're actually helping the YouTube algorithm to push this teaching to more and more people. Well, I have a lot of things to discuss with you tonight, Dr. Thomas, but if you have a question for Dr. Thomas, just leave a comment under the YouTube video and. And I'll try and get to some of those questions later tonight. But let's begin with Romans 12:2. It's the verse that inspired the name of this program. Be transformed by the renewal of your mind. What does that mean and how does that take place?

Derek Thomas (4:21)

Well, it takes place initially, of course, in the work of regeneration. We're given a new mind, a new set of beliefs, a new orientation, a new desire, a new will, a new sense of purpose. But it's interesting that Paul should put such emphasis on the mind. We live in an age that is governed a lot by emotions. How do you feel about this rather than what you think about this? And we are meant to grow in our understanding of the gospel, of the Scriptures. I mean, God has given us not a box of perfume to smell and react to, but he's given us a Bible, 66 books in Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, different genres, but nouns and verbs and sentences. So one has to think about, what does this mean? But to have a mindset, a sense of orientation that I'm here to glorify God. I'm here to live out my life by the help of the Holy Spirit in as sanctified a manner that I can. And I need to know what God wants me to think. I need to know doctrine, I need to know beliefs, system. And that's why for Christians, you know, reading the Bible, these books, going to church, listening to sermons, going to Bible studies, and all of it, to renew our fallen minds, reshape them and make them Christlike minds as The Bible says, think God's thoughts after him.

Nathan W. Bingham (6:40)

Today we have a 24. 7 news cycle, a 24. 7 social media cycle. There's TikTok, there's influences. Do you think the focus on having a renewed mind is more important today because of all of that noise, or has this always been important for every generation?

Derek Thomas (7:04)

That's a really difficult question to answer because every generation has its influences of one form or another. But, you know, I'm privy today to folk with ideas and worldviews that I really wasn't privy to. Growing up on a farm, a sheep farm in West Wales, I was pretty naive about a whole lot of things. So I think children today, teenagers, especially college students especially, are enormously influenced by social media. I'm not on social media a great deal, but friends of mine who are in the counseling world tell me that the influence of social media on things like self esteem, for example, is very, very considerable among teenagers. And knowing then how to live your life and what to think, what to believe, to stand in opposition to

Nathan W. Bingham (8:23)

the

Derek Thomas (8:23)

worldviews that are pressing in asking you to be conformed to this world. And the Bible says, be not conformed to this world. So yes, I probably think that this age in which we live in is more and more difficult to maintain a Christian worldview. The pressure of social media is huge. The only social media I kind of watch are YouTube movies of dogs and cats and parrots. But I'm not sure if they're influencing me in any great deal. But it's an issue for the church to grapple with. It's an issue for Ligonier to grapple with. It's an issue for Sunday school teachers and youth leaders. And it's a constant call to shape your mind according to the Scriptures and what it teaches.

Nathan W. Bingham (9:46)

I was talking to Sinclair Ferguson recently about the Shorter Catechism and the Lost Art of Catechesis. And as we were talking, it came up that essentially, if you're not catechizing your children, somebody else is. And I think for many young people, the one catechizing them is the TikTok algorithm or the YouTube algorithm. And if you're just doom scrolling, it's subtle, but your worldview changes as worldly perspectives and philosophies come at you 24 7. It definitely is a challenging time for this younger generation.

Derek Thomas (10:20)

Sure, sure.

Nathan W. Bingham (10:21)

RC Sproul's teaching has had a significant impact on my life, my wife's life, my family's life for 20 years. What value do you put on a program like Renewing youg Mind, where every day listeners from around the world for free can listen to teaching from Dr. Sproul, other gifted teachers. You're featured on Renewing youg Mind as well. How valuable is just having easy access to. To daily trusted teaching?

Derek Thomas (10:48)

Well, forget about me for a minute, but RC was one of the great teachers and preachers of the 20th century, without any shadow of a doubt, and had an enormous impact on a whole lot of people. I've run into folk just this past couple of weeks who read Chosen by God and their worldview and understanding of scripture just turned 180. But to have access, you know, we live in such a wonderful age, and there's a good side and there's a bad side, but the good side is that you and I can access solid Reformed teaching preaching. Just a click of a mouse or

Nathan W. Bingham (11:48)

tap of the screen, Tap of the screen.

Derek Thomas (11:50)

And that was not possible. You can ask, AI, what would RC think about this? And like that, it comes out. And of course, it's borrowing from RC's writings and material that's out there and in the world of artificial intelligence, can produce an answer in a millisecond to anything. So it's invaluable, it's important. And the fact that renewing your mind and programs like it can reach the whole world. There's hardly a place in the world that doesn't have access now to the Internet in some form or another. And, you know, you can see movies of young men in Africa with not all of the worldly goods that you and I have, but they've got a phone and they've got Internet access, and you can. It's so important in the global reach, I think, of the Reformed faith and the ease with which RC taught. RC was never difficult to listen to. He had a prodigious knowledge and an extraordinary mind, but you really weren't aware of that when he was preaching. He spoke to the average Joe and was so effective in the manner in which he taught. And I was influenced by him back in probably the mid-80s, I was aware. I graduated from Reformed Theological Seminary in Jackson when there was only a campus in Jackson. And just barely a couple of years after I graduated, he came to teach in Jackson, so his name was familiar to me. And then I read Chosen by God and had the privilege of meeting him in person some almost 25 years ago about the same time Ewan and I both encountered him and miss him a lot. But he's all around us in this room, but he's also in every nook and Cranny of renewing your mind.

Nathan W. Bingham (14:49)

I think when I think of renewing your mind, it's not just stewarding the library that we have, all of Dr. Sproul's material, but going back to your early comment about technology, it's stewarding the technology that we have. So how do we take this incredible library of trusted teaching, take advantage of the new technology that's before us and get that to as many people as possible? And this new studio and the efforts we're doing on the video side of things is just another step in that direction. But speaking of that, let's go to YouTube and see what our viewers are asking us. This first question here is from Tim. Tim would like to know, what do you love most about Jesus?

Derek Thomas (15:33)

Oh, now that's a great question. And I think it's the fact that in the upper room he said, I call you not servants, but, but friends, and what a friend we have in Jesus, the hymn. And I think when I first became a Christian, I was lonely. I was 18 years of age. I really didn't know why I was here. I'd gone from a sheep farm to a university and was out of sorts. But I found in Jesus a friend. I mean, he's a savior, he's my Lord, He's God. But he's also a friend who sticks closer than a brother. And friendship is important. We both probably have good friends. I'm old enough to be your father, but I often think of you as a friend. But we have friends that we relate to and confide in and are helped by and sometimes admonished by and discipled by. And for me, that's probably what I like most about Jesus.

Nathan W. Bingham (17:08)

I love that answer. We've got more questions. This one's from Peter. How do you respond to people? Or how should Peter respond to people who think there won't be happiness in heaven because some of their loved ones won't be there?

Derek Thomas (17:24)

That's a really tough question, and it's a question that I've thought about a lot. I certainly have family members who are not believers and died not believing. I think that heaven will be. And we're talking about, let's talk about the new heavens and the new earth in the embodied state that it'll be so blessed, an experience that God will give to us the peace that accepts his will and providence in all things. You know, I think you're going to ask me some questions about suffering, so I won't go there. But it's. It's what Edwards, I think would say about heaven that it's a place of such perfect blessedness that there won't be any sort of fight back. There will be acceptance, there'll be sorrow. I think heaven is compatible with a sense of sorrow for those who are eternally lost. One imagines that to be the case. But it's also a contented sorrow. It's a peace that passes all understanding multiplied by infinity.

Nathan W. Bingham (19:16)

Would it be fair to say that one of the reasons we struggle with a question like this is because our minds have not been completely renewed yet, nor will they be until that future state?

Derek Thomas (19:28)

Yes, you're perfectly correct. And that was what I was struggling to sort of say. I think our thinking process and our response here is still unsanctified. And, you know, we begin to question God's will or his providence or his decree or whatever. But I think in heaven that just won't be the case.

Nathan W. Bingham (20:02)

Simon would like to know, can you explain what systematic theology is?

Derek Thomas (20:08)

Well, I should be able to since I've been teaching it for 30 years. So the Bible is not a systematic theology. The Bible is a composite of 66 books, and there's history and poetry and proverbs, and there are sections that we call apocalyptic. And then there are gospels, and then there are letters, and then there are prophecies and on and on. And you can go and ask, what does the Gospel of John have to say about this? But then you pull the lens all the way back and you say, well, what does the whole Bible have to say about this? And the whole Bible has to say a lot of things about almost everything. And you have to try and make sense of it into something that's rationally coherent. So, you know, you begin with exegesis, and what does this text mean? And then we talk about biblical theology. I mean, John, for example, uses the word flesh sarx in Greek differently from Paul. When Paul uses the word flesh, he usually means sinful flesh. But John says the word was made flesh, and he means sinless. John is saying that he was embodied, that he had a human body, but there's no moral implication about the fact that he had a human body. So that's just one example of biblical theology. What does Paul say? What does John say? What does Peter say? And so on. But then at some point, you have to pull the lens back and say, well, what does the whole Bible have to say about this? And then divide it into divisions about the doctrine of God and doctrine of man and the doctrine of Christ and the doctrine of the Spirit and how we are Saved and eschatology and so on.

Nathan W. Bingham (22:24)

Last question before I get to ask some of my questions, but this one's from Aaron. Aaron would like to know, why is it important for Christians to affirm sola scriptura?

Derek Thomas (22:36)

Oh, yes. Well, because Jesus did. Jesus says in John 10 that the Scriptures cannot be broken. So Scripture has authority and. Where do we find authority? Right. And our see is an authority, but he's not infallible. A systematic theology can have authority, but it's not infallible. A creed can have authority, but it too is not infallible. And what God has given to us is a Bible that's breathed out by God, breathed out by the Holy Spirit, that holy men of old wrote as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. And therefore we say what the Bible says. God says, and therefore you have a basis then of authority. Sola scriptura. A landmark issue for the Reformation for Luther and Calvin and the magisterial reformers. In that context, the Church was an authority and the words of the Pope were an authority. So the Church decided how the Bible should be interpreted. The Bible was in Latin. The average Joe didn't know any Latin, except perhaps the Paternoster. And therefore, if you wanted to know what is true, you'd ask the priest and he would tell you what is and isn't true. But at the Reformation, all of that was done away with, and only God can tell you what is true. And God has given His Word inscripturated in Scripture, so it becomes the basis of authority for all that the Bible teaches.

Nathan W. Bingham (24:46)

If you do have questions for Dr. Thomas tonight, be sure to leave them in the YouTube chat. And don't forget to subscribe to the Renewing youg Mind YouTube channel so that you can be notified in future months when we go live, just like tonight. Well, you did mention the topic of suffering. And I did say to you I wanted to talk to you about. I think it's a really important issue. Anecdotally. I spoke recently to an author of a new book on suffering, and we featured that conversation on Renewing youg Mind. And it was either number one or number two. Most engaged with episodes of 2025, which just reminded me again how it really hit a nerve. And it's an area where Christians need help. And the area of suffering has been one where you have been a great help in my life and helped renew my mind in thinking rightly about suffering. So my question for you is, why did this become an area of focus for you in your ministry? And why have you spent so much time teaching from the Book of Job.

Derek Thomas (25:51)

Well, you might expect me to say because I've suffered much, but that actually is not true. I mean, the first answer would be that I was a pastor for 50 years, 55 years. So I encountered a lot of suffering. Bereavement, suicides, cancer, children that were born with disabilities and. And emotional suffering and psychological suffering and abuse and everything in between. And probably in 55 years, I've encountered not all, but a lot. Suddenly. The second reason would be that some 40 years ago, a book landed on my. On my doorstep from the Banner of Truth, great clunker of a thing, a facsimile edition of Calvin's Preaching on The Book of Job. 159 sermons that he preached in 1554 and 1555. They were weekday sermons, and it was still in the Elizabethan English and in the Elizabethan font that the book first appeared in, in the late. Probably in the 1600s. And I thought to myself, who in the world's gonna read this? I was editing a magazine and I had responsibilities for doing some book reviews. And so I. I started reading it and became completely fascinated, partly with Calvin and his preaching on Job, but with the Book of Job itself. And it became something of. I want to use the word obsession, but I don't mean that in a bad sense. But my wife will say, you're not preaching on Job again. She's probably watching. But I do love to preach on the Book of Job. It's fascinating to me that God should put this long 42 chapter book on suffering and really doesn't answer the main question that you think it's going to answer. Why do we suffer? Why does God allow suffering? And what's the cure for suffering? And really, the book doesn't fully answer some of those questions. The only answer that it actually gives at the end of the day is that you must trust him. And it's not important that you understand. It's only important that God understands and that you trust him, that you exercise faith in him, as Job did initially and as he did finally, but maybe not in between. It's a book that's constructed in a very strange way. The first two or three chapters are history. And then you. You have 35, 36 chapters or so of Bildad and Zophar and Eliphaz. And then Elihu pops in and Calvin said about them, you know, they only have one song and they sing it to death. And that song is that the only reason for suffering is that you are being punished. For your sins. And we're told right up front three times, twice in chapter one, once in chapter two, that Job was an upright, blameless, righteous, godly, that he shunned evil. And on two occasions, it's coming as the words of God himself that this is not the author, One of them is from the author. But on two occasions, it's God who's saying this about Job. So Job loses 10 children. He loses his health to something that brings him to skin and bones, which is an expression in the Book of Job. And he's searching for questions. I mean, for answers to his questions. The question why? And, you know, I had a friend one time, she'd suffered a great deal. I was the pastor, and I won't go into details, but she had suffered a lot and was living with suffering every day. And I would go and visit her pastorally, and she lived with her mother and her daughter. And she would say, every visit, she would say, can you tell me why? And I'd say, no, I can't. And she was okay. She was fine. But she had the right to ask the question,

Nathan W. Bingham (31:47)

Am I correct in saying that the book of Job was the first book that was written in the canon, the oldest book preceding Moses, writing Genesis?

Derek Thomas (31:57)

Well, I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. I mean, the character of Job precedes Moses. So the history that you're reading in chapters one and two precedes Moses. And I don't know whether that part was written down and it was added to later. I'm not sure of the answer to that. And nor does anybody else, for that matter. People come speculate. There are speculations and there are scholarly speculations as to when it might be written. And a lot of modern scholarship certainly would place it probably within the exile somewhere. So later. But I would insist that Job is an historical figure. Ezekiel quotes him along with Noah as historical. I mean, there are those who don't believe Noah was historical either. But those of us who do believe that Noah was historical and there was a flood.

Nathan W. Bingham (33:13)

It's not a story. It's a historical account.

Derek Thomas (33:15)

It's not Lord of the Rings.

Nathan W. Bingham (33:17)

Yeah, yeah. As a family. Providentially, it turns out that we're reading through Job right now. So can you do me a huge favor?

Derek Thomas (33:26)

Wow.

Nathan W. Bingham (33:26)

What is the most important lesson you can take away from. From Job? It'll just help me with family worship.

Derek Thomas (33:34)

Well, Calvin, in his very first sermon, said that Job had a good case, but he argued it badly, and his friends had a bad case. But they argued it extremely well. And I think that to me is a key. And my memory serves me right. That's what Calvin called. He says a key to the understanding of the Book of Job is that Job had a good case, that he was innocent, but he argued it badly. And his friends had a really bad case. They accused him of suffering because of his sin, but they argued it extremely well. Now you can read the Book of Job and you can read especially the contributions of the three friends. And they're perfectly orthodox. I mean their doctrine of God is perfectly orthodox. It's a Westminster Shorter Catechism, understanding of who God is and what God is like and that he's sovereign and that he's sinless and that he's eternal and that he's powerful and so on. There's not much emphasis on the love of God from these three friends, but the doctrine of God is perfectly orthodox. But all that they're saying about especially God's perfection and righteousness is to rub in the fact that Job is not and that that's why he's sinning. I mean, that's why he's suffering because of his sin. So older, I mean Joseph Carroll, for example, whom John Owen succeeded in the church in London, Joseph Carroll preached on the Book of job for 23 years. And they're available in print today. There's a publisher here in the United States. You and I would know the publisher. Well, Reformation Heritage, that have published all I think 12 volumes. And the sermons are orthodox sermons. They'll take one verse, two verses. Well, imagine and it's a sermon about the sovereignty of God, or it's a sermon about the righteousness of God. It's a sermon about the decrees of God, It's a sermon about the folly of men. All of which you can find if you just read it verse by verse. But all of that is meant to exacerbate in the friends, in the three friends mind, Job's culpability. So I think if you're gonna preach on Job, you should limit it to 20 sermons.

Nathan W. Bingham (36:39)

Not 20 something years, 20 sermons.

Derek Thomas (36:42)

Yeah, but I mean imagine that you'd be there as a teenager, right? And he starts in Job one one. And then you go off to college and you get married and you have kids and then you're empty nesters and you decide to go back and he's still in the Book of Job. Extraordinary. Quite extraordinary.

Nathan W. Bingham (37:04)

Before we go to some more questions from Those watching on YouTube, what is something you would like to leave with someone who's watching and they find themselves in the midst of suffering right now

Derek Thomas (37:17)

that we have a savior who has been tempted in every point, like as we are. So there is no suffering, either physical or emotional, that Jesus can't identify with. He knows physical pain. He knows brutality. He knows innocent suffering. He knows when his friends let him down. He knows betrayal and on and on. So, you know, we. You can go to Jesus anytime and know that, you know, the two things that Jesus does in his heavenly session right now are that he intercedes and he sympathizes. Those are the two things. The book of Hebrews mentions that he intercedes for us. And he. He. He sympathizes. And. And the word sympathy in our day and age, I guess, you know, is a kind of a negative thing. I know. I don't want your sympathy. I want an answer. But sympathy is a very powerful thing to know that you're not alone.

Nathan W. Bingham (38:52)

Yeah. You have that friend that you were speaking of.

Derek Thomas (38:55)

Yeah.

Nathan W. Bingham (38:55)

Yeah. All right, we're going to go to some questions from our viewers. So if you do have a question, leave it in the comments on YouTube. But this next question is from Scott, and he would like to know, how can we be praying for you?

Derek Thomas (39:09)

Oh, goodness. Well, I've just retired. Well, I say just two years ago I retired, and I'm busier now than I ever was. I thought that was a sort of euphemism that retired folk would say. So I'm preaching every Sunday, and I'm trying to write. I've just written something that Ligonier hopefully will publish at some point. And then I did a recording series to go along. I mean, a video series to go along with it, which hopefully will be published at some point. And I'm trying to find the balance of. I want to keep my mind active. I feel as though I don't want to play golf. I spoke to somebody, I think it was on a plane, and he asked me what I was doing, and I said, I've just retired, and I was returning from preaching somewhere. And he said, oh, I retired a year ago. I said, so what do you do all week? And he says, well, I play golf four days a week, you know, so he goes to the golf course at 10. He's probably back at 5, probably goes to the 19th hole, and that's four days of the week gone like that. And I thought, no, I don't want to do that. So, yeah, I'll be 73 in a few weeks. And, you know, this whole body of mind just doesn't do what it used to do and you know, dealing with. I mean, I heard, I used to hear people say, you know, that growing old is not for dummies. And yeah, dealing with just getting old, older. But I, I want, I want to keep my eyes on Jesus is what I really want. I think. I think it's so easy just to, you know, put your foot off the gas pedal and then kind of cruise along. And I want to keep growing in the Lord. I want to reach the finishing line without committing some horrible, horrible, horrible sin. I used to want to be first or second. I don't mind if I'm last, but I just want to get over that line, you know, following him, running with endurance, the race that is set before us. Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. So endurance, keep on keeping on. That was Martyn Lloyd Jones's little thing. He would put on the end of a letter, you know, in days when people wrote handwritten letters. Keep on keeping on. So and thank you for whoever the questioner is that you'd be concerned enough to even ask that question of me.

Nathan W. Bingham (42:41)

We have thoughtful viewers and listeners. Gary, who must have listened to some of your teaching in the past, is asking, can you please tell the story of your daughter giving you a picture of Eeyore?

Derek Thomas (42:54)

Oh my goodness. So we moved house in September. We downsized. It sort of was a decision made in a hurry, kind of. And. But I brought the picture of Eeyore. So it's a picture of Eeyore. And he's saying, you know, he's looking kind of glum and he's saying, have a nice day. If it is a nice day, which I doubt. And my 12 year old daughter thought that was me, that I'm a Celt. So I see the glass half empty. I tend. My reflex, you know, is to see the darker side of things. And I have to renew my mind all the time.

Nathan W. Bingham (43:56)

And you read Job for fun.

Derek Thomas (43:58)

And I do read Job for fun, but. And it's in the bathroom, so I see it every day.

Nathan W. Bingham (44:10)

That's great.

Derek Thomas (44:10)

I purposely put it there.

Nathan W. Bingham (44:12)

Well, I'm glad Gary asked that question. We have another one here from Elash. Elash would like to know how can a father respond to feelings of guilt, grief and sorrow over a prodigal child.

Derek Thomas (44:36)

In every likelihood, it is not your fault, you know, if you raised him with a modicum of Christian parenting. And it's not your fault that they go off to college and discover worldviews and morals, different morality, and they fall. And. Some of the godliest people I know have prodigal children. And so it's bad enough having a prodigal child. It's even worse when you add guilt to it, you know, so stop trading in guilt. I'm a Presbyterian, so I believe in the doctrine of covenant. And I believe that God covenants to be a God to us and to our children. It doesn't guarantee that all prodigals will come back to the Lord, but I claim that. I would claim that every day and pray and, you know, don't fall out to their prodigal children. You know, don't lecture them and say, you know, you can never come back here or whatever. And. And there are all kinds of complicated situations, you know, when prodigals have gay partners or prodigals have other issues that complicate family life when they come back for Thanksgiving or Christmas or whatever. And I think that keeping lines of communication open, not forcing the issue. Yeah, that's what I would say.

Nathan W. Bingham (47:05)

So this question, I think maybe being asked in response to how you shared, people could pray for you. Rick would like to know, what is your advice? Well, I'll just read the question. What is your advice for a pastor to help him guard his fervor for Christ. What is your advice for a pastor? Yes. To help them guard their fervor to not take their foot off the gas pedal, as you were referencing earlier.

Derek Thomas (47:37)

I mean, it's not going to be the same for everybody, but for me, I can't imagine. I do have colleagues of mine who, at 65 or 66 or 68, they retired and they no longer preach. They preach one sermon a year for a friend when he goes on vacation. And they're content with that, you know, that's fine. I would not be. I would be like a cat on a hot tin roof. I'm not. I like preaching. I get a lot of joy in preparing a sermon. I was talking to Sinclair Fersen. Well, we were texting last week, and I was telling him just how much joy I had in preparing my last week's sermon.

Nathan W. Bingham (48:29)

On Job?

Derek Thomas (48:32)

No, it was on the healing of the man in John 5 who'd been 38 years by this pool. And Jesus says to him, do you want to be healed? And I just had such a blessing. I mean, there are all the usual things about, you know, you have to keep your own fire burning. And how do you do that? Well, you know, you keep a close walk with Jesus. You read the Bible, you pray, you. You do all the things that every other Christian's meant to do. But when a preacher is asking it for me to just suddenly stop preaching, and I have friends who say to me, why don't you stop? You know, why don't you come and teach a Sunday school class or something? And I would enjoy teaching a Sunday school class, but I. I enjoy preaching more because the two are not the same thing. So usually pastors need, I mean, keep on reading, listen to rc, listen to renewing your mind.

Nathan W. Bingham (49:56)

Amen.

Derek Thomas (49:59)

You know, I don't think there's a secret formula for a pastor as opposed to anybody else. Now, I mean, I know there are a lot of people, I mean, a lot of people who hate their jobs. They liked it when they first began to do it. And people, my generation especially, who are career folk now, lots of younger folk, switch jobs every four or five years. But if you've been a banker for 45, 50 years and then you suddenly stop, you're probably relieved because you were Only the last 10 years you've been working for your pension. So I understand that. But for a preacher, there's a certain sense of, I find my purpose. This is who I am. This is what God made me. This is the call that I received. And I didn't receive a call to preach. That said, you will stop at 65.

Nathan W. Bingham (51:13)

Yeah. Well, we will come back to some more of your YouTube questions. So if you have questions for Dr. Thomas, please leave them in the chat. And don't forget to hit that subscribe button, turn on notifications so you'll be reminded the next time we're live. And as we drop episodes every day on Renewing youg mind, well, Dr. Thomas, if I mention to somebody that I'm sitting down with Derek Thomas, we've already talked about suffering and Job, what else should I ask him about? I think there's another topic that would quickly come to the top of the list, and that would be the Pilgrim's Progress. So can you tell me, how did you come to love the Pilgrim's Progress?

Derek Thomas (51:55)

I met my wife in college, as a lot of us do, and we were both math majors. And I was converted at the Christmas break of my first year in college. And it was a Saul of Tarsus, like conversion. I wasn't persecuting the church so much as Saul was, but I thought science had all the answers. And then I got converted, met Rosemary, my wife, and she lived with two other girls, Jane and Edith, and what in Britain we'd call a flat, an apartment. It was the third floor of a house that was owned by an elder in the church that we attended. And there were six children. Actually, there might have been more. I can't remember. There were a lot of children, but they were great cooks. So a bunch of us guys, after the Christian Union meeting, we'd go back there because they baked good food. Apple tart and cake. Because you and I come from countries that actually like fruitcake. And so Jane, on my 21st birthday, gave me a copy, a hardback copy, a nicely produced Oxford University Press edition of Pilgrim's Progress, which I'd never read. And so I read it, you know, and fell in love with it. And I still have it. It's in my office. I have to get up out of my chair to sort of reach it. And I still have her inscription written on the inside for my 21st birthday. First of all, it's a story. You know, I'm preaching on John at the minute in a little church in Mississippi. And the first 12 chapters of John's Gospel are stories, stories that other gospel writers haven't actually told. And some are long stories, like the Woman at the well. It's the longest conversation between Jesus and a person in the entire New Testament. So John loved stories. And stories have a great deal of power. I have a very, very close friend, he's unlikely to be watching, who chastises me. I preach sort of theologically and doctrinally, and he says, I want more stories. He's always chastising me about stories, but stories are powerful people. Like movies, because typically it's a story. I don't watch movies, but I think in the last 10 years, I might have seen three, and they were probably Star wars or Lord of the Rings. But stories are powerful, and Bunyan could tell a good cracking story. And characters. I mean, it's an allegory, of course, and he's just really good at it. Written, of course, when he was in prison. Actually written about 3/4 of it written in his first imprisonment and the last quarter written in his second imprisonment. And, you know, it starts in the city of destruction with Christian, and he's got a book in his hand and a burden on his back, and he's getting out of the city of destruction, but he didn't know where he's going. And in between, Bunyan has some of the most well known graphically designed passages like Vanity Fair. I mean, brilliant, Absolutely brilliantly told. The fight with Apollyon. I mean, just the details. And Bunyan, you know, Bunyan, at 16, lied about his age and went off to war, joined the parliamentary forces against the king's forces in the Civil War. I don't think he actually was in battle. He saw the results of battle for sure, but would have seen two soldiers with swords and practicing. And the way that he describes that in the battle with Napoleon, you're almost right there. In the same way that Lord of the Rings gripped me. So when I was in high school, my last year in high school, it was just like a craze among the graduating class. I can't remember what you call it in America, but the sixth form class.

Nathan W. Bingham (57:56)

Seniors, seniors, seniors.

Derek Thomas (57:59)

Everybody was reading Lord of the Rings and I thought, oh, I need to read this book. So I went to the. There was only one bookstore in the town. And I went in and I said, do you have Lord of the Rings? And they said, well, we only have one copy and it's a paperback. And I said, done. And I spent that summer reading it from COVID to cover. I would make sandwiches and I'd go up to the. It was on a sheep farm. And I would go up to one of the fields where there was a glorious view with a blanket, and I'd sit and read this book, much to my father's annoyance because I wasn't doing my chores. And I tease people every now and then. And I say, you know, Peter's going to ask you at the Pearly Gates. He's going to ask you about justification by faith. But there's going to be a little writer that says, have you read Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress? And why take the chance now? I believe in justification by faith alone. It's just my way of saying, I had a text message just yesterday from someone asking me what version should she purchase. So I sent her a link to an Amazon site. I said this one because she didn't want to read an abridged one or a modernized one. She wanted to read the proper text of the 1680s when it was first published, about 1678 for part one, but there's a part two, which appeared in 1684.

Nathan W. Bingham (59:51)

Well, you have a wonderful guided tour through the Pilgrim's Progress that you recorded with Ligonier. Regular listeners to Renewing youg Mind have heard messages from that series. But if you're digging into the Pilgrim's Progress for the first time, I encourage you to look up that series, the Pilgrim's A Guided Tour. Now, I do want to get to a few more questions from YouTube before we close for the night, so I'm going to jump right in with and ask you this question. This is from Jared. Jared would like to know, how can someone find rest in Christ without false assurance when their life is still marked by so much sin and failure? Such an easy question, right? There's a lot of questions here in this list.

Derek Thomas (60:42)

That's a great, great question. And I think you need to get on the right side of grace. You know, it's so easy to say that we're saved by grace, plus our efforts in sanctification. And we may not say it like that out loud, but that subtle thing, I believe in Christ alone, but I have to have evidence. And you can get that so out of kilter that you've actually got a salvation by a gospel that's not a gospel, that when you come to Christ, your sins are forgiven and he promises to forgive daily sins. So, you know, there's the marrow controversy, which some of our listeners, you know, will be familiar with. And it really was about that question, you know, how do I get assurance? And do I get assurance through my good works? And that's a road to disaster. It's a road to guilt. It's a road that never gets peace. There's always something more I need before I can actually have that peace. To be justified by faith is to bring peace into my stricken conscience about the past, present and future.

Nathan W. Bingham (62:44)

Last question from YouTube for the night. BC Modern is their username. What would you say is the most difficult book of the Bible to preach and why,

Derek Thomas (62:57)

if you're not good in sort of apologetics, Ecclesiastic. Ecclesiastes can be a little tricky. Back in the day, when I was 29 or so, I decided I would preach through Jeremiah. And the first dozen chapters are fine because there's lots of stories about Jeremiah. And then you've got like 30 chapters of judgment. And after preaching a couple of these messages on judgment, I told the congregation, actually, it was a midweek thing. I told them I really wasn't ready to preach, you know, three or four months on judgment. I didn't have enough knowledge how to do it, so I stopped and I've never come back to it. And I'm going to have to confess to Jeremiah one day that I. I never actually got to. Preaching your book to the end. I mean, revelation can be tricky depending on how you interpret it. And I have a sort of specific understanding of revelation that makes it easier actually to understand. I think that with the reference to the previous question, I often tell, well, I don't teach homiletics anymore. At one time I taught homiletics and I used to tell my students, don't preach on one John, in the first 10 years of your ministry because you'll end up sounding like a legalist.

Nathan W. Bingham (64:35)

It's good advice.

Derek Thomas (64:37)

Yeah, because John does have a way of using the quality of your sanctification as guides for how you are to understand assurance. But I think unless you have a rock solid understanding of grace and how that operates and how that is to be offered to sinners, I think that preaching first, John, is going to make you sound like a legalist.

Nathan W. Bingham (65:15)

You know that renewing your mind has a global audience and we have Christians of a variety of denominations tune in, whether on the radio or on the podcast or on YouTube. But tonight, especially because this is a live stream, the algorithm is pushing this stream out to many different people. And as there's a likelihood that there is an unbeliever watching tonight, you've spoken about legalism, you've spoken about grace, justification by faith. If there is a non Christian watching tonight as the final question for the evening, what would you want them to know?

Derek Thomas (65:49)

I thought you were going to ask me. What one thing would I want them to know.

Nathan W. Bingham (65:55)

We could go for another hour. You could tell them everything they need to know. What one thing? We can simplify the question.

Derek Thomas (66:00)

There are two things. One is that you have a problem. It's a massive problem. It's a problem of sin. And that God is gracious in Christ. And there's a Savior. That's the second truth. There's a Savior who says to you, come unto me all ye that are weary and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. So there's a gospel out there for sinners that will completely change them, that will forgive them their sins, that will give them a sense of meaning and purpose for life, that will revolutionize them from the inside out. So call upon the name of the Lord in this very hour. That's what I would say to them.

Nathan W. Bingham (67:00)

Well, Dr. Thomas, this has been a lot of fun. I've appreciated this past hour. And thank you for being the first ever guest on Renewing youg Mind, live from the studio.

Derek Thomas (67:10)

Thank you, Nathan. It's been a pleasure.

Renewing Youg Mind Announcer (67:13)

That was Ligonier teaching fellow Derek Thomas on this special bonus episode of Renewing youg Mind. Remember, if you've never contacted us before, you can request a free copy of the 40th anniversary edition of R.C. sproul's book The Holiness of God. Simply visit renewingyourmind.org free before this offer ends. And don't forget to subscribe to the official renewing your mind YouTube channel and turn on notifications so you don't miss the next time we go live from the studio. Thank you for all the ways you support this program as it really does help more people to discover the trusted teaching that we feature every day here on Renewing youg Mind.

Derek Thomas (68:10)

Sam.