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- [00:00]
Dr. Timothy Whitmer
Even for Christians, it's easy to say God is God. Not so easy to say I'm not. So walking through the challenges of life, we can often forget the vertical perspective that we need to help us through.
- [00:23]
Lee Webb
That's the rub, isn't it? Most of us will readily claim that God is sovereign, but when it comes to resting in that reality, well, that can be a challenge, especially when we're facing the challenges of life. Hello and welcome to the Monday edition of Renewing youg Mind. I'm Lee Webb. The voice you heard is that of Dr. Timothy Whitmer. His new book is titled God Is God and I'm How God's Sovereignty Matters every day. You can receive a copy of this helpful resource today when you make a donation@renewingyourmind.org Recently I had the privilege of interviewing Dr. Whitmer about his book, and I began by asking him what motivated him to write it.
- [01:07]
Dr. Timothy Whitmer
Being a pastor for so many years, I walk with people through all kinds of challenges and tragedies, and comfort to me has always been the sovereignty of God. And I've seen that as a comfort to them, too. But I wanted to write a book that doesn't deal so much with the the esoteric nature of the theological principle, but rather how it matters in daily life. What difference does God's sovereignty make when I'm walking through the valley of the shadow of death? So I'm hoping that that's how it will bless people.
- [01:43]
Interviewer (likely Lee Webb)
Well, you received high praise from men that you know and appreciate in their ministry. Dr. Derek Thomas, one of our Ligonier teaching fellows, writes, I know no other book that will both inform and challenge you on this important tr written with such ease and simplicity. I thoroughly commend it to you. That's high praise from that is a friend.
- [02:05]
Dr. Timothy Whitmer
Very humbling, for sure.
- [02:07]
Interviewer (likely Lee Webb)
Well, you know, we look at this title, God Is God and I'm Not. And for many Christians, we would look at that and say, well, of course that's true. Why do we need to be reminded of that?
- [02:19]
Dr. Timothy Whitmer
Well, I think we need to be reminded of that because even for Christians, it's easy to say God is God. Not so easy to say I'm not. So walking through the challenges of life, we can often forget the vertical perspective that we need to help us through. And I believe that the doctrine of the sovereignty of God is one of those things that a lot of people might be willing to say it. But when it gets down into the particulars of life, even, let's say, in terms of the doctrine of God's sovereignty over our salvation. Well, then some eyebrows may raise and say, well, now, wait a minute. Don't go that far.
- [03:05]
Interviewer (likely Lee Webb)
This is not just a book that you wrote from the ivory tower. This is a book about. That's very personal to you. And you were sharing with me a story about a very tough time in your life where God's sovereignty and the truth of God's sovereignty became very real to you.
- [03:24]
Dr. Timothy Whitmer
Yes. More recently, I had some difficult physical problems. And so, as a typical male, I put off going to the doctor. But it got bad enough that I had to go to the doctor, and he told me that I had cancer. And what was interesting about God's timing on this is that I was teaching a pastor's conference remotely by Zoom. They were in Canada. I was in Pennsylvania. But the day that I received my cancer diagnosis was the very day that I was to teach them on how God's sovereignty matters in the midst of the storm. And so I shared that with them. And it was a pretty powerful moment for all of us, I think, because it does make a difference.
- [04:18]
Interviewer (likely Lee Webb)
How did that affect your teaching that day?
- [04:20]
Dr. Timothy Whitmer
Well, it was certainly passionate and from the heart. That is. That is the truth. And they were, I think, even more attentive given that circumstance.
- [04:30]
Interviewer (likely Lee Webb)
Was that a comfort to you to be able to teach these things that you now had to embrace fully?
- [04:35]
Dr. Timothy Whitmer
Yes, it definitely was. The teachers learn more than their students. But in that particular case, for sure.
- [04:45]
Interviewer (likely Lee Webb)
Before we get really into the content of the book, I know that RC Sproul had a profound influence on you and your ministry. Would you talk a little bit about that? And what's interesting is that the musical instrument, the tuba, is part of your connection to Ligonier ministries and to Dr. Sproul.
- [05:06]
Dr. Timothy Whitmer
That's right. Actually, it was 50 years ago this spring that I first met RC Jim Boyce had started the Philadelphia Conference on Reformed Theology, and he wanted some brass to go with it. And so the Westminster Brass was founded, and RC Sproul was one of the early speakers. And so we got to meet him and travel with him for many years with the Conference on Reformed Theology. But then in 1988, RC decided that he would like the Westminster Brass to come along and help with the beginning of the National Conference. And so we were with the national conference from 1988 to 2008.
- [05:53]
Interviewer (likely Lee Webb)
Right here in Orlando.
- [05:54]
Dr. Timothy Whitmer
Right here. And then also in 2017. But, you know, all that, including the introduction you gave, makes me feel very old, but we're still doing fine, I think.
- [06:07]
Interviewer (likely Lee Webb)
You and I are contemporaries, but it
- [06:10]
Dr. Timothy Whitmer
was being exposed to his teaching that was actually before his book, the Holiness of God came out. But when that came out, that was truly transforming, I believe, to many of us, most of us very blessed by his ministry.
- [06:25]
Interviewer (likely Lee Webb)
Well, certainly the holiness of God and God's sovereignty were centerpieces of Dr. Sproul's teaching. And it's interesting that you're writing here on God's sovereignty. I'd like to play for our audience a portion of a message that RC recorded many years ago, maybe back in the 80s. It's a bit startling because he links the teaching of God's sovereignty over and against atheism. Let's listen.
- [06:53]
R.C. Sproul (recorded message)
Now, if things happen in this world outside the sovereignty of God, then that would simply mean that God is not sovereign. And the reason I brought up the question of atheism is, of course, if God is not sovereign, then God is not what? God. It's that simple. If God is not sovereign, God is not God. And if the God you believe in is not a sovereign God, then you
- [07:27]
Lee Webb
really don't believe in God.
- [07:29]
R.C. Sproul (recorded message)
You may have a theory of God, you may have theoretical theism, but bottom line, for all practical purposes, it's no different from atheism.
- [07:40]
Interviewer (likely Lee Webb)
That can cause people to kind of, wait a minute, where are you going with that?
- [07:44]
Dr. Timothy Whitmer
But, yeah, you know, as always, RC gets right to the point. And the shock value often when he gets right to the point, I believe that is an excerpt from an experience he had in a classroom where he asked the class, how many of you believe that God ordains whatsoever comes to pass? And a few hands went up and he said, well, what's the matter with the rest of you? Are you atheists? And they were stunned that he would be considered that. And so he went on to explain what he just explained there, that if God is not sovereign over all things, if there's anything outside of his purview or his direction, then he's not sovereign. And if he's not sovereign, then he's not God. And that's the point he was trying to make. And the point I try to make, too.
- [08:35]
Interviewer (likely Lee Webb)
And you use the term, it's an interesting term, Sovereigntist.
- [08:38]
Dr. Timothy Whitmer
Yes.
- [08:39]
Interviewer (likely Lee Webb)
What is a sovereigntist?
- [08:41]
Dr. Timothy Whitmer
I'm glad you asked that question, Lee. One of the things that I would really like to see, I would like to see people identifying their reformed faith more with the sovereignty of God. And therefore I coined the word sovereigntist in a theological sense. And Dr. Ferguson looked it up in the dictionary, sovereigntist. And it had something to do with rule in Canada. And so it hadn't been used in a theological sense before. But a sovereignist is someone who not only believes in the sovereignty of God, but someone who lives their life in the light of the sovereignty of God, seeing its impact every day of their lives.
- [09:24]
Interviewer (likely Lee Webb)
How do we do that?
- [09:26]
Dr. Timothy Whitmer
Well, I think the main thing is to make sure to keep the vertical perspective on our lives, to be allowing His Word and His Truth to fill us and motivate us and guide us and lead us. It's when we get cut off from God's revelation of Himself and that vertical perspective that we get into trouble.
- [09:57]
Interviewer (likely Lee Webb)
You quote Louis Berkoff, who I believe, by the way, was one of Dr. Sproul's professors at the Free University of Amsterdam. Berkhof says, God is clothed with absolute authority over the host of heaven and the inhabitants of the earth. He upholds all things in his almighty power. He rules as king in the most absolute sense of the word. And all things are dependent on him and subservient to him. And I think in our Western ears we hear absolute authority and subservient to him. And we bristle at those terms, don't we?
- [10:36]
Dr. Timothy Whitmer
Yeah, I think we do. Because in our sinful nature, we want to be in the driver's seat. We don't want to think of anyone as superior to us. Dr. Van Till used to talk about the creator creature distinction, and we often get those things turned upside down so that we want to be God. And so, you know, the inverse of my title, we like to say, I am God and He's not. And that's the struggle that fallen human beings have and even redeemed human beings have every day, is that struggle between God's will and my will, his sovereignty and my sovereignty.
- [11:20]
Interviewer (likely Lee Webb)
Really typically when we talk about sovereignty, the term providence goes hand in hand. How do they relate?
- [11:29]
Dr. Timothy Whitmer
How do they relate? Well, one of the things that I did in the book, I did it for myself as much as for my readers, is I kind of identified a glossary of sovereignty. And so I go through the terms that we often hear and, and oftentimes can get mixed up. So the sovereignty is the lordship of God, and then his lordship is expressed in his decree, which is his perfect plan. And then Providence is God working out his plan in time. And of course, then that includes both nature and humanity. So Providence is the expression of his plan in the world.
- [12:18]
Interviewer (likely Lee Webb)
Well, let's dive into some of these. And this is very practical. That's what I appreciate about your book. It is soundly theological, but also practical. How does God's sovereignty help us in temptation?
- [12:33]
Dr. Timothy Whitmer
This is a great one, because when we're tempted, we sometimes feel like we're going it alone. But one of the things that we talk about is that great promise in 1 Corinthians 10:13, where it talks about God not allowing us to be tempted beyond what we're able, but to provide the way of escape. And my point is that that promise could not be true unless God was absolutely sovereign. How does he know what we're able to bear and what we're not able to bear? How can we be confident that we're not going to get in a pickle sometime that we can't resist? He says, no. He says, you're never going to be put in a temptation. There's more than you can handle by his grace. And there's also always going to be a way of escape. If God's not absolutely sovereign, you can't be assured there's going to be a way of escape. But because he's sovereign, we know that we can look and there's going to be a way of escape. And I think when it comes to temptation as well, we have great comfort in our great high priest, who was tempted in all ways as we are, and yet without sin. My son was a scout platoon commander in the Iraq War, a decorated combat veteran. And at one point in the war, he asked his commanding officer, he said, sir, I need a TOW missile, which is a more portable missile, so you could not have to rely on air support so much. He said, I need a sniper rifle. And his commanding officer denied him those things. And I said, nate, why do you think your commanding officer denied those tools to you? And he said, dad, he didn't have any combat experience, but, you know, you're a commanding officer, has combat experience. He's been tempted in all ways as you are, and yet without sin. And so there's a confidence that we have when we face temptation. We know he's been there and he's with us to enable, to withstand it and to be able to find the way of escape and take it.
- [14:55]
Interviewer (likely Lee Webb)
And to continue that combat wartime metaphor, he gives us in Ephesians, the tools we need. The full armor of God.
- [15:04]
Dr. Timothy Whitmer
Absolutely correct.
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Interviewer (likely Lee Webb)
You make the point that God's sovereignty is not passive. What do you mean by that?
- [15:12]
Dr. Timothy Whitmer
Well, what that means is that he is not sitting back. And there's a theological perspective called open theism. And, you know, it sounds good because everybody wants to be open, right? But open Theists believe that God has not determined what's going to happen. He's open to what might happen, given the various contingencies of life. And so you can't really count on Him. But to say that God is not passive is to say that he is active in accomplishing his purpose through all kinds of circumstances. And that's why my favorite. Would you like to know my favorite verse?
- [15:55]
Interviewer (likely Lee Webb)
I'd love to know your favorite verse.
- [15:57]
Dr. Timothy Whitmer
My favorite verse of my favorite chapter of my favorite book of my favorite book is Romans 8:28. We know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love him, to those who are called according to his purpose. And so he is working together for good, even those circumstances that are not good, but yet he works them for our advantage and for his glory. So he's not sitting back there hoping that things are going to turn out for us. He's actively working things for our good.
- [16:33]
Interviewer (likely Lee Webb)
And of course, that leads to the question, if God is so actively involved, why do I need to be involved in praying and living out the Christian life according to His Word?
- [16:46]
Dr. Timothy Whitmer
That's a great question. Because that's one of the things that people bring up against the doctrine of the sovereignty of God. The reason that we pray. Well, there are two things. The reason that we pray is because God has commanded us to pray. He has not only ordained the things that happen, but he's ordained the means by which they happen. And the secondary means, our prayers, he says, really matter because they're part of his plan to bring about what he desires. And the same thing is true with regard to evangelism. This one really gets me because they say, well, you know, if God has already ordained who's going to be saved, then why should I share my faith? That's pretty simple. Because God said so, God told us to do so. And that again is another secondary means that God is using to establish his will and his purpose in the world. And what I love about people who are committed to the reformed faith, and particularly the sovereignty of God, is they have a confidence in evangelism and a zeal in evangelism that is really singular because they know I know when I preach the gospel, I know when I share my faith. They're not going to come to faith because I'm so articulate or so good looking, but they're going to come to faith because God opens their hearts. And in every single evangelistic endeavor I've been part of in my entire ministry, whether it be street evangelism, whether it be evangelistic meetings, there is a prayer that is always prayed by every person from any theological perspective. And here's the prayer. Dear Lord, please open their hearts. Please open their hearts. Because that's. Everybody knows in the basis that's what it's about. It's about God opening our hearts, bringing life from above. So, yeah, we have to be careful not to neglect human responsibility and that which is required of us in our obedience.
- [19:00]
Interviewer (likely Lee Webb)
One of your chapters is titled Sovereign Help when it's Hard to Forgive. How does God's sovereignty help us in that regard?
- [19:13]
Dr. Timothy Whitmer
This is really a tough one. But if we believe that God ordains whatsoever comes to pass when someone hurts you, when someone sins against you, we have to believe that in some mysterious way that is part of God's plan. And there's no better example of how to relate to that than the story of Joseph. His brothers were really nasty to him, leaving him for dead. And yet Joseph had this amazing perspective. He basically said, am I in the place of God? Because the brothers, as you know, they were scared their whole lives. Then when Jacob died, they made up the story. Oh, dad told us to. To forgive us and not to hold us against us. And what does Joseph do? Joseph cries, he weeps because he sees. He knew that God was using that in some mysterious way to deliver not only them, but the covenant people. So again, it's a matter of perspective Now. Forgiving and forgetting, that's a different thing. Having a disposition to forgive is very important. But forgetting, we're cognitive people, we're going to remember. And one of the things it says about God is that he'll remember their sins no more. What does that mean? Well, that doesn't mean that somehow in the mind of God that those things disappear. The word remember is often used as a trigger for God's action. So when God remembers Rachel, it doesn't mean he goes, oh, Rachel, no. He is going to take action on her behalf. And so when he says, remember our sins no more, this means that he is not going to remember them in the sense that he's going to bring us judgment outside of that judgment that has already been brought on our Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. Now for us, we're not going to forget what people do to us. But that remembrance can be drained of the desire for vengeance or bitterness. And that's how God's sovereignty helps us, I believe, when it comes to being sinned against like that, you also write
- [22:00]
Interviewer (likely Lee Webb)
that anxiety, the anxiety that we face many times in life can be replaced by peace and as we consider God's sovereignty, how do we get there?
- [22:13]
Dr. Timothy Whitmer
I Love Philippians 4 says, Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, let your request be made known to God. Now those are two very absolute statements, aren't they? I don't know. As a counselor, when a couple comes in to me and the wife says he always does this, and the husband says she never does this, well, you always take that with a grain of salt. But in the scriptures, it's something that we can really take to heart. So don't be anxious for anything, okay? But always pray. So I think always having that perspective that brings God's life and promises into our world when anxieties hit. And as you know, we can pray for a long time about many things because God doesn't answer right away. He doesn't always say yes. But I believe that we need again do what God tells us to do, to rely on him.
- [23:24]
Interviewer (likely Lee Webb)
And again, bringing this back to your personal experience, you're still dealing with cancer. That means that you go in for periodic testing fairly frequently. And I'm sure that that can be anxiety producing. Can it?
- [23:40]
Dr. Timothy Whitmer
It can. But the great thing about all of this is that our destiny is secure. And I know that whatever comes my way, that God has me in his hand. I remember an organization I worked with one time was going through a really, really hard time and I was very concerned about it. But I tend to be a joyful person. I think you'll notice that tuba players tend to be jolly. We do. So we're jolly. But one of the administrative assistants saw me walking across the campus one day and asked me, Dr. Whitinber, why are you always so happy? And I said, I'm going to heaven. That's not meant to be flip. But that's just the truth. And that influences the way I live my life and the way I relate to people and the way I deal with hardship and the way I deal with cancer. I know God has it all under control.
- [24:55]
Lee Webb
Well, I was personally so encouraged by Dr. Whitmer's book, God is God and I'm not. And I highly recommend it to you. It is a helpful reminder that even in the most chaotic and uncertain seasons in our lives, God is in control. And that truth brings real comfort. If you'd like a copy of this book for yourself or one to share with a friend who needs some encouragement, you can request the book when you donate in support of this program@renewingyourmind.org or when you call us at 800. 4, 3, 5, 4, 3, 4, 3. And in advance. Let me thank you for.
- [25:31]
Interviewer (likely Lee Webb)
For your generous donation.
- [25:34]
Lee Webb
As we learned today, knowing that God is sovereign does bring us comfort amid life's uncertainties. But we still have to walk through those challenges. So how do we respond when problems come? We'll look at that question tomorrow in a series by Dr. R.C. sproul, dealing with difficult problems. That's right here on Renewing youg Mind.
- [25:57]
Dr. Timothy Whitmer
Sam.