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- [00:00]
R.C. Sproul
Before we begin today's episode of Renewing your Mind, we invite you to stay with us through the end of the program. To hear how you can request a featured hardcover book from Ligonier Ministries.
- [00:11]
Captain Butch Wilmore
This scripture bows the need to no man, no one. It is factual, properly discerned, and you can believe it. And when it says you can be content, just like Paul was amongst all the travail that he went through, you can be content. You can.
- [00:33]
R.C. Sproul
Hello and welcome to the Friday edition of Renewing youg Mind. Well, if you're like me, you were probably captivated by the story of the two astronauts who set out on an eight day mission that turned into an unexpected ten months in space. One of those astronauts was Barry Butch Wilmore. And it was my privilege to interview him during Ligonier's national conference. Well, we welcome Captain Barry Wilmore to our studio. He is a retired NASA astronaut and Navy captain, former Navy attack pilot. His story captivated not just the United States, but the world when he and his fellow astronaut were stuck in space for almost 10 months, a mission that was supposed to only last eight days. During that unexpected journey, Captain Wilmore was not shy about sharing his faith. Jesus Christ. And he's written a book about that experience and the events in his life that prepared him for it. The title of the book is Stuck in An Astronaut's Hope through the Unexpected. Captain Wilmore, it is a privilege and honor to have you here.
- [01:42]
Captain Butch Wilmore
Oh, it's wonderful to be here.
- [01:44]
R.C. Sproul
It's been more than a year since you returned, and for many of us, the sight of your capsule splashing down in the water and seeing you and your fellow astronaut Suni Williams crawling out of that capsule is etched in our memory. And for many of us, that's the last memory we have of you. Since that time. We can only imagine the exhilaration that you must have felt. We could see it in your face. But what was going through your mind at that very moment?
- [02:10]
Captain Butch Wilmore
There's a lot of thoughts. Obviously, being in space, off the planet, is very unique. It's very special. But being on the planet, the Lord created us to be together, to live our lives together, encourage one another, be there for one another. And it's hard to do that when you're off the planet, like with your home church and those individuals there. So being back was special and continues to be special. I can tell you this, though. So in space, your joints don't hurt because there's no gravity pulling on you, pulling G's and jet aircraft for over 30 years. I can't turn my head to the right very far without my neck hurting. But in space, I had no neck pain whatsoever. We splashed down. We're waiting for them to come get us. Within 10 minutes, the neck pain is back. So that gives you a little idea how gravity is not your friend when you return from space. Did you want to go back from my neck? Yes.
- [03:04]
R.C. Sproul
Well, it was such an encouragement to Christians who followed your story to know that you were trusting Christ, trusting the good Lord throughout this situation. And I think readers will be even more encouraged when they read your book. I want to talk more about the mission a little bit later on, but we'd like to know more about how you came to faith, when and how you came to faith in Christ.
- [03:25]
Captain Butch Wilmore
Well, let me make a comment on that other point. So I never proselyzed from my position what I believe. I never used that as a platform necessarily, unless I got asked the right question. And there was one press conference we had about halfway through the mission. And, you know, this is all the Lord's organ. He is sovereign. He is working providentially. We're just looking at a camera. We can't see anyone. But across the Nation, there's like 20 different reporters that ask questions. And this one gentleman asked a question. He said, captain Wilmore, what is your number one biggest takeaway from all of this? And I'm like, thank you, Lord, because my number one biggest takeaway is that I am content because. And I tried to package the answer succinctly. I said, well, I am content. And the reason I am content is because I know my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. And I always try to say Jesus, because if I say God, people will put a generic whatever they believe God to be. So always my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, is working out his plan and his purpose for his glory and our ultimate good, if we will believe. And that's how I answered the question. And from that you said open about my faith. Every single press conference after that, several asked me similar questions along those lines. And that's again, that's the Lord orchestrating all of that. But my personal. Yeah, I was born into a Christian home. My parents loved the Lord. My parents loved the Lord's church, and they took me there. And I was the most mischievous guy, I would say, in Tennessee, maybe the whole southeast region of the United States. And I was always into something. And I needed that stability. I needed that continual infusion of the truth of God's word, even as a young boy, because the way I was wired and I'M grateful for that because I learned so much growing up about God's word, God's truth, and it is absolutely true. And that was the foundation for which, you know, the life continued from there. So grateful for my parents, grateful for the Lord's providence and his working through coaches and everything, you know, my church and all that.
- [05:19]
R.C. Sproul
Growing up, did you actually ask your dad one time, why do we go to church so much?
- [05:22]
Captain Butch Wilmore
I did. Why do we go to church so much? He said, because that's what we do. I was too little for him to give me the full answer. You know, we're honoring the Lord. It is his church. We need his church. All those reasons why. I mean, why do we have the church? Right? I mean, we have the church because we worship, right? It's a place we come together collectively to worship, but all the other one another. So it's like 51. One another in the New Testament. You can't one another if you're not involved in each other's lives. And because, you know, I need you at some point in my life. You may need me at some point in your life. And if you're not in the church, actively involving your church, then you're not there when someone needs you. We need to be active members in Christ's church because it is his church. He gave us his church for a reason. It's ultimately for our good and for each other.
- [06:07]
R.C. Sproul
I'm curious, did Dr. Sproul have an influence on your understanding?
- [06:10]
Captain Butch Wilmore
I might have just quoted him right there. Indeed, indeed. John MacArthur Stroll. I used to love to watch them be on the panels. I dialed in. I don't know how many panels. I watched them answer questions on you. Probably many of you, y' all did as well. It was intriguing. It was a learning experience for me and still is. Yeah.
- [06:29]
R.C. Sproul
Of course, your. Your Starliner mission was one that brought you into the public eye in a way that it had not been before. Ed, you. You said, as you're strapped into your seat atop a massive rocket, you write, I can only consider the long list of experiences that have become links in a chain of preparation for event after event in my life. Each one certainly couldn't just be happenstance, could it? You talk a lot about the providence of God. What were those experiences early on in your life, growing up outside of Nashville, Tennessee, that shaped your life?
- [07:05]
Captain Butch Wilmore
You know, we see the evidence of the Lord working providentially in lives in scripture. I mean, Joseph is the one we always go to, all the, you know, sold into slavery. He's taking him there to preserve the nation of Israel during the time of famine. All those steps, Moses going to the desert for 40. I mean, there's story after story after story. He's working providentially in your life, too, just in the same fashion. We are children of God. He is at work in the same way, providentially, and not for us, but for his glory. You know, we always try to put the focus on Him. So many times you hear people say, my, the Lord preserved me. He's got a plan for me. I don't see that in Scripture. I see Scripture has a plan for his glory in which he chooses to use men. And I think we put it in that fashion. It puts the focus on him and takes it off of us because we are selfish individuals. We want the focus on us, do we not? So we need to deflect that to his glory and his plan for his purpose in which he chooses to use us. And he's worked providentially in your life, just like he has. And that's what this book shows. I think the book shows hope in the now because the Lord is at work in all these situations. And eternal hope, which only, only, only emphasize, only comes through Jesus Christ, our Lord.
- [08:17]
R.C. Sproul
You talked about the influence that your father and your mother had in your life. Tell us about Coach Sims as well
- [08:23]
Captain Butch Wilmore
as Gunnery Sergeant Gerhardt, Gunner Sergeant Gerhardt and Coach Sims. Two impactful people in my life. I'll start with Coach Sims because he was first. He was my junior high position coach. I was a guard on offense. Get this. I was a linebacker on defensive guard on offense, in the second string quarterback. That is a strange combination, but that's what you do in junior high. And we had a practice field in the back years prior. They had taken all the topsoil when they built Interstate 40 through Nashville. So all the topsoil was gone. So it was clay and rock. And we called it the tundra. And so we go out to the tundra and practice and we're doing monkey rolls and sweating on each other. And just in the. I mean, mostly rock and clay, it was just. And Coach Sims, you gotta want it. You gotta want it, and you do. You know, the Lord is working sovereignly in our lives, like we've said, but we also have responsibility. And how that comes together, I can't explain it. I listened to Dr. Sproul and John MacArthur tried. They couldn't explain it either. But the Lord is at work sovereignly, yet we are responsible. The Lord is completely sovereign in salvation, yet we are responsible. How that comes together, I can't explain it. But we see it in scripture. And so that you gotta want it is dig in deep and fight and do and work and prepare and all of those things in our lives. We're not exempt from that. You know, I'm sure you've all heard this. Let go and let God. Well, when it comes to sin, we have to let go of sin. We need to repent and turn from sin. But it's not let go and let God. God's gonna take care of all this. That is not scriptural. I don't see that in scripture. It is. God is sovereign at work. We have responsibility. I mean, what did Paul do when he was first on the Damascus road? What the first thing he did, he went three years to Arabia in preparation. You know, Moses, like I said, 40 years of preparation in the desert. All the preparation that Joseph had in preparation for what he would finally do. I mean, scripture is replete with that. So that's what I see in Scripture. Our responsibility as God works sovereignly and enables us to do what we can't do without him. I can't explain it, but that's what we see in scripture.
- [10:32]
R.C. Sproul
So you've heard that echo of Coach Sims in you gotta want it. You gotta want it.
- [10:37]
Captain Butch Wilmore
Yeah. And then in Aviation Officer Candidate School, we had Marine Corps drill instructors as you were making. Naval officers, Naval aviation officers. And his name, Gunnery Sergeant Tiberius Gerhardt, United States Marine Corps. Could you think of a better name for a drill sergeant? Right. Tybertius Gerhardt. And his nickname, we found out, was the evil one. And he was evil in that he was stern and disciplined. I mean, to the core. Uniform, not one button, completely uniform like it should have been. It's exactly as it should be. Every maneuver, everything he did was precision. He instilled that in us. An amazing individual that taught me in those 14. It's only 14 week course. And he taught me an immense amount in those years. And part of that is, you got to want it. He used that phrase and he said many times, he said, what you are learning here, the discipline, the determination, the focus is required for the job that you will eventually do. And you need to take it serious now because it may save your life. Not once, not twice, but multiple times. And he was absolutely right with this life.
- [11:48]
R.C. Sproul
Do you have some personal examples of how that played out?
- [11:50]
Captain Butch Wilmore
Got to buy the book.
- [11:51]
R.C. Sproul
Got to buy the book. How did that play out in the Starliner mission?
- [11:56]
Captain Butch Wilmore
Completely in the Starliner mission, you know, the short summary of what transpired we lost the ability to fully control the spacecraft. Six degree of freedom control. I'm going to try to explain it later, but we lost that ability. And I'm manual controls in the spacecraft. And to maintain the control was very challenging. And every ounce of experience that I had gleaned over a career of flying off aircraft carriers, flying in combat, I had lived docking and rendezvous the previous two decades with NASA like no one else in our office. And all that is, I didn't know it at the time, but preparing me for the future. And it all culminated, at least so far in this instance where I was able to control a spacecraft that was not controllable.
- [12:38]
R.C. Sproul
Basically that was the point you knew you had a problem with the spacecraft.
- [12:41]
Captain Butch Wilmore
It was actually before that. As we're losing thruster, we have eight thrusters that fire in the aft direction. There's 28 total thrusters that point different ways so you can maneuver. But eight of them point in the aft direction. Five of our eight aft pointing thrusters failed, which we lost the ability to fully control the spacecraft.
- [13:00]
R.C. Sproul
Was that when the problem was made public to us?
- [13:03]
Captain Butch Wilmore
No, in the real time, nobody knew. There was one comment from mission control through the capsule communicator, the capcom, the one that talks to the crew, he just simply said, we see B2A2 down, loss of 6 DOF control. That's all he said. And what that means is we lost the ability to fully control the spacecraft. And I'm manual control at this point. And I'm like, no, no kidding. Loss of 6 DOF control. I didn't say that obviously, but how
- [13:30]
R.C. Sproul
did you dock the spacecraft then?
- [13:31]
Captain Butch Wilmore
Well, I had to maintain my attitude pointing at the station. The spacecraft has sensors, it's looking at the space station with cameras, ladars, IR sensors, and it's building a digital picture by keeping that focus on the space station. If my attitude were to drift off of the space station, it would drop all that data and you couldn't get it back in the amount of time we needed to dock. So I had to maintain, I had to maintain the attitude and I had to maintain my position. And that is not easy to do when you don't have ability to fully control the spacecraft. But I had lived it's orbital mechanics, how two spacecraft fly in close proximity to each other. I'd lived it for two decades and I, I could visualize what my control input, how that would impact oral mechanics as far as flying these. Because I'd lived it like no, like I said, no one else at the time. I Just share this. When we launched on 5 June in 2024, there was one astronaut in the entire United States astronaut corps that had experienced, that had actually flown a spacecraft in space. Hands on flown a spacecraft. There was one, and that was me. I'd flown it in the Space shuttle. I'd gone through the training through the Russian Soyuz. I was now going through this, you know, this whole process of developing this new spacecraft in starliner. Nobody had that background and that experience but me. And I didn't even think about it at the time. This is hindsight looking back, but there was nobody more qualified to be in the left seat than me based on what happened. And I'm not saying that makes me good and it doesn't. That makes my lord amazing because of providentially work for decades. I didn't even think about it. I never thought that, hey, I know what my control input's going to do to oral mechanics. I never thought that until after the fact. But that's what I was doing. I was making inputs with the control. I'm doing right this attitude translation with our control. And I'm making inputs visualizing what's going to happen before I make the input, what's going to happen after I make the input. And like I said, I never thought about that until looking back, but that's what was taking place.
- [15:28]
R.C. Sproul
As you're processing this, the fact that you're a husband and father, did you begin thinking about your family and how they might process this information?
- [15:38]
Captain Butch Wilmore
What I thought during that time, because you got to realize, all I have capacity to do is to fly. You know, we have this saying in aviation. It's aviate, navigate, communicate. You aviate. If you can navigate, then you do that. And if you can communicate, then you do that. If you can't, you just aviate. You fly the spacecraft or aircraft, whatever, whatever it is. I didn't have capacity to do anything other than aviate, but I did fleeting thoughts through my mind. There's no way they know what's going on right now. There's no way that my family is aware of how extremist the situation is right now. Because there's been one thing, loss of six Dolph control very calmly, you know, communicated up to us. And I know they don't know what that means. And there's no banter back and forth between us in the ground. They're busy trying to figure out a plan to recover thrusters and I'm busy flying. And so there's no banter back and forth So I know they have no idea. But those thoughts were fleeting because I gotta, I gotta fly.
- [16:32]
R.C. Sproul
Was there a point in which you were able to speak to your wife and children?
- [16:36]
Captain Butch Wilmore
Oh, it was after the fact. So here's what I thought. People have asked me, well, how did you feel when you finally found out that you weren't coming back? Well, there's what I thought before we docked. We have to dock. We have to dock because if we don't dock, I'm not sure what our options are. I mean, I'm feeling the control. I don't know if I can control this spacecraft well enough to maneuver to the point where I can do a deorbit burn. I don't know that I can. Now, this is real time, right? So we have to dock. If we don't dock, we may not survive. And the third thing I thought was, if we are able to somehow successfully dock, I don't think we're going to come home on this spacecraft. Because you dock, you're safe. That's our safe haven, the space station. And so even before we ever docked, I knew the chances of us coming back were very slim. The reason I know, because I've been doing it for quarter century and I know how hard it is to bound a problem like this. You got to determine what happened. You got to turn out why it happened. You got to make sure that future operations will not allow it to happen again. And with limited time, you can't go on a spacewalk and inspect the thrusters. They're not made that way. You can't do that. And I know all this. So I knew the chances of us coming back were very slim. I didn't tell my family until about a month later. The final decision that we weren't coming back was made three months later. So this happened in June. That decision was made at the end of August. But in July, I told my family, I said, you know the most likely scenario, we aren't going to come back until I said 20, 25, which at the time was six months away. Because knowing how different spacecraft come and go, they'd have to find a seat for us to come back. I knew all that. So. And I finally did tell them that. And it was a downer. It was a downer for all of us. Because still, the future is unexpected. But still, even in that contentment, this is one thing I told my daughters. When the Lord saved them. Notice I said, the Lord saved them, because that's how it happens. The Lord does the work, right? He saved them when he saved them. I said, now you have eternal hope. Nothing, no one, nothing will ever take that away. Any situation you are in in your life, you've got that. And that breeds contentment. So I'd shared that, you know, a couple of years prior, before we launched and after the Lord saved them. And I felt the same way because that word. I wish I had a Bible with me. It is true. It is absolutely true. And that's the message, I think. So many people, regrettably, there's so many people that pick and choose what they're going to believe. Well, they become God when you do that, right? I mean, I'm going to say what's right and what's wrong in this word, this holy scripture, this scripture bows the knee to no man, no one. It is factual, properly discerned, and you can believe it. And when it says you can be content, just like Paul was amongst all the travail that he went through, you can be content. You can.
- [19:32]
R.C. Sproul
To me, that's one of the liberating aspects of being a Christian. God does not call us to be stoics.
- [19:37]
Captain Butch Wilmore
No, not at all.
- [19:38]
R.C. Sproul
Through Jesus, in his perfect life, He. He understood fear. He understood sadness.
- [19:44]
Captain Butch Wilmore
And I'll tell you something else real quick. And this Artemis coverage has been going on. I've been on Fox News a couple of times, and they have asked me pointed questions. I didn't prompt them. They've asked me, tell us about the faith, how the faith ties into all this. And on national TV again, Lord's orchestrated all this. I'm going, well, Jesus Christ is Lord, he is my savior. He. He incurred the wrath of God while he was on the cross for my sins so that I wouldn't have to. And I am forgiven. I mean, I've been able to say those things on the national scale. I mean, who would have imagined some little kid from Tennessee growing up playing football in the tundra is able to proclaim the gospel like that. Praise the Lord for it. Praise the Lord for it. And it may end tomorrow. It may end tomorrow. But right now, the Lord's allowed that to happen for his glory.
- [20:33]
R.C. Sproul
Would you tell us about the role that your church. I know you have just a great passion for the members of your church.
- [20:40]
Captain Butch Wilmore
I'm glad you asked that question.
- [20:41]
R.C. Sproul
What role did they play in your discipleship while you were on the space station?
- [20:46]
Captain Butch Wilmore
While I was on space station, I tied into the services. We stream our services, so I was able, when we had coverage to link in. It's not full coverage for the whole service. Because there are breaks here and there in the satellite coverage, but I tied in every single Sunday. I also saw a friend's church in Mount Juliet, Tennessee, where I grew up. I tied into those services. And when the service was over, that was the lowest point of the week because I was ready for the next week. But I'll tell you this, I'm not sitting in this chair right now. If it wasn't for the support of my church, not because they've trained me and they have. They've given me an understanding of God's word. But any ministry. We all have ministry. We all share Christ, right? But an organized type of ministry, which is what this is right now. If my church did not support me doing this, I wouldn't be here. Because all ministry flows through the church. Every ministry that I'm involved with flows through Christ Church. There are parachurch ministries that are working together with churches. But if you call this what the Lord's opened up for me to do, a ministry, and I think it is in that light, it's not my ministry again. It's the Lord's ministry through me. But I wouldn't be here if my church didn't support it. Because I have a schedule. My schedule changes all the time and I'm sending it to our elders constantly. And as they hear and they observe and they shepherd them, they're my shepherds too. They are shepherding me through this. And that's important.
- [22:06]
R.C. Sproul
I mentioned that God does not call us to be stoics. He understands our anxieties and fears our concerns. He tells us to cast all of our cares upon him because he cares for us. But was there ever a time in which you said, hey, I'm ready for this to be over.
- [22:24]
Captain Butch Wilmore
I. I try to beat back that human part of me because the Word is true. I try that. Remember the contentment that comes in knowing Christ Jesus as my Lord is not just in the fact that I have eternal hope, but it's every moment of my life and the details that take place in the moment of my life. And do I fall short of that? Yes, I do. Am I weak sometimes? Yes, I do. But I'm grateful that the scripture reminds me. That's why we have devotions daily. It takes us back and we get the precious detailed fellowship with our Lord in His Word, which is him. And it is empowering and is strengthening. And to him be the glory for all of it. For sure.
- [23:08]
R.C. Sproul
You've retired from the Navy, you've retired from NASA, but you're career continues. And I Know you have a passion for missions work. Tell us about what you're doing now and how the Lord is playing a role in your life.
- [23:21]
Captain Butch Wilmore
I appreciate that too. So I just got back from Brazil with a group called Amazon Outreach. They have a couple of boats and they go to the far reaches of the Amazon river villages. There's 30,000 unreached villages in the region. And I think in the last 22 years they've hit about 2,200 of those villages. So the need is great. And sharing the gospel. And I'll share this. I'm glad you asked the question. Everywhere I go, Jehovah's Witnesses have been there. I mean, it's amazing. And the Jehovah's Witness, if you know anything about their doctrine, it is a false doctrine. And I'll say that openly because we need to be honest about truth and untruth. And I went door to door in these villages, sharing Christ and sitting down with families. And every single one of them, 100% of them had a works based understanding of the Gospel. Works based. They had to do this, they had to do that. You know, I'm not so bad. That guy there, he drinks. I don't drink. And when I shared the gospel that, you know, Jesus Christ did it all, they could do nothing. And I try to explain human achievement versus divine accomplishment. Human achievement is everything, right? Man's got to do something. Divine accomplishment. That's only biblical. Christianity is the only religion, faith out there where Christ did it all. You can't do anything right. And that's what sets it apart. And the difference. And every single one of them is like, I've never heard this, I've never heard this. And I kept telling them, read the Book of John. If you look, read the book of John 40 times. I think in the Book of John, Jesus says, truly, truly, I say unto you, I tell you the truth. He emphasizes that he's talking the truth because there was deception then too. I said, read it. And what I'm telling you is true. I am telling you the truth. What you've heard is not the truth. I'm telling you the truth. Just like Jesus is saying here as you read through the Book of John, because I'm not going to be there. You know, the need is vast. You got One missionary covers 30 villages. And that's, that's hard to do. It's hard to do. But we pray for them. We continue to go and we continue to send the missionaries and the pastors into that region. And Ligonier, guess what? I asked them for some Bibles, the Reformation Study Bible, and I'm hoping to get 10. They sent a pallet, 250 Bibles. We didn't have to pay for them. And I handed them out to pastors and missionaries in the remote villages along the Amazon region. God's word is powerful, as you know, and for them to do that, I mean, wow, it's huge. Absolutely huge. Now that's just one of the things.
- [25:50]
R.C. Sproul
In the brief time we have left, Captain Wilmore, very few people will have the experiences that you've had flying a F18 Hornet in combat, being launched into space multiple times. But everyone has a story to tell of God's providence in their life. What encouragement would you give them today?
- [26:08]
Captain Butch Wilmore
I would say exactly that. The Lord is working providentially in your life. See it, it's there. Acknowledge it. Give him the glory for it. He's got us all at different places right now. He's got me sitting here with you and on Fox News. That's where he's got me right now. But the local church, the pastors in those local churches have the greatest responsibility of shepherding those flocks. Yeah, there's out there evangelists going to do different things and people proclaiming Christ. But your local church and what you do to impact the people in your local church is what God calls us to all to and that is vitally important as he works providentially in your life to enable you to do that.
- [26:57]
R.C. Sproul
Well, it's always an encouragement to hear how the Lord is working in the lives of those who follow Jesus Christ. Captain Butch Wilmore shares many more examples in his book Stuck in Space An Astronauts Hope through the Unexpected. You can request a hardcover edition of this book with your donation. In support of Renewing youg Mind, contact us at renewingyourmind.org or simply call us at 800-435-4343. And for our global listeners, we will send you the ebook what Does It Mean that God Is Sovereign? You can give your donation@renewingyourmind.org and let me thank you for supporting this podcast. Monday we'll begin a new sermon series from RC Face to Face with Jesus. As RC introduces us to the rich young ruler, we'll consider the most important question anyone can ask, what must I do to inherit eternal life? I hope you'll join us Monday here on Renewing youg Mind.
- [28:07]
Captain Butch Wilmore
Sam.