Dialing In the Guest Experience with Coach Sal Rotolo

Summary

Podcast Summary: Restaurant Strategy – "Dialing In the Guest Experience with Coach Sal Rotolo"

Main Theme / Purpose

This episode centers on the guest experience in restaurants—moving beyond simply serving food to intentionally crafting memorable, engaging customer journeys. Host Chip Klose and returning guest Coach Sal Rotolo dissect what makes an experience extraordinary, emphasizing attention to detail, emotional connection, and operational strategies to elevate every interaction from the moment a guest enters to when they leave.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Are Restaurants Really Selling?

• Experience over Food: The hosts agree that guests seek more than meals; they crave being taken care of and immersed in a unique environment.
  • “You do not sell food. You sell an experience. The experience of coming in and dining at your restaurant.” —Chip Klose [00:00]
• Transactions and Permission: Dining is a series of transactions where guests grant permission to be sold to; if salesmanship is missing, the experience feels empty.
  • “If we're not sold to enough, we call it bad service. Like, we're looking over our shoulder like, where's the waiter?” —Chip Klose [07:53]
• Time as a Commodity: Dining in is among the rare, lengthy transactions left in the modern world.
  • “The average transaction in a CVS isn't 20 minutes. The average transaction online isn't 20 minutes.” —Chip Klose [09:23]

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2. The Power of Details

• Memorable Mentorship: Sal recalls advice from Victor Sorrentino:
  • “It’s about details. It’s details, details, details. Those are the three things...that are going to set you apart from everybody else." —Victor Sorrentino via Sal Rotolo [06:59]
• Intentional Touchpoints: Every small element (lighting, music, setup, cleanliness) must be deliberately managed for consistency and excellence.

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3. Salesmanship as Service

• Guiding the Guest: Staff should guide, not just take orders, acting as “experts” who help guests find the best each restaurant offers.
  • “There's a way sales equals service and better salesmanship actually equals better service and better experience.” —Chip Klose [10:57]
• Making Choices Personal: In quick-service settings, staff proactively help guests navigate the menu, recommend items, and personalize the experience.

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4. The Theater Analogy

• Hospitality as Performance: Both hosts draw parallels between restaurants and theater—uniforms as costumes, dining rooms as the stage, and each service a performance.
  • “This is a performance, right? You have a uniform on equals costume...and we're paid...to put on a performance.” —Sal Rotolo [13:48]
• Setting the Stage: Like in theater, restaurateurs must clearly define the setting, characters, and story for guests.
  • “Restaurants are so close to theater. We're backstage or we're on stage, right?...Our job is to guide them through." —Chip Klose [12:34]

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5. Memorability and Story

• Deliberate Experiences Lead to Stories: Guests remember the details that stand out—speakeasy entryways, personalized greetings, sensory cues.
  • “I don't remember the food, but I'm here talking about it because of everything else.” —Sal Rotolo on Capos, Las Vegas [16:06]
• Assume No One Cares—Make Them Care:
  • “We just have to walk into it assuming no one cares. They care when it makes their life better. They care when it gives them a good story.” —Chip Klose [16:19]

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6. Recovering from Mistakes

• View Complaints as Opportunities: Guest complaints provide a chance to demonstrate personal care, often turning one-time customers into regulars.
  • “Whenever there's an issue, it's an opportunity. That's what people have to remember.” —Sal Rotolo [19:30]

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7. Making Every Guest Feel Important

• Personality in Service: Recruiting and developing staff who are naturally personable is key; small, genuine interactions can transform a guest’s experience.
  • Notable story: Bob Carpenter at Sunnyside Kitchen retains customers by engaging each guest personally (e.g. commenting on logos, starting personalized conversations). [24:21]
  • “Customers are never an interruption of our day. They're the reason we're here." —Sal Rotolo [28:19]

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8. Atmosphere & Environmental Design

• Engage All Senses: The physical environment—smell, sound, sight, touch—sets the emotional tone.
  • “Every sense adds a layer to the memory that the guest takes home.” —Sal Rotolo [33:29]
  • “I want you to juice a bunch of orange juice right before you open up the doors...People walk in and they get hit with that fresh OJ juice smell and...it's a sensory thing.” —Sal Rotolo [34:45]
• Optimize Seating and Lighting: Steve Hanson (Be Our Guest) is cited as obsessing over seating plans and lighting so every guest feels like the best version of themselves.
  • “He would sit in every single chair...what are they going to be looking at all night?...He was willing to get rid of two covers simply because...they're not saying good things about us.” —Chip Klose [36:50]

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9. Operational Tips: The “Customer Walk”

• See Through the Guest’s Eyes: Owners and managers should routinely experience their restaurant as a guest would, from parking lot to table.
  • “I teach restaurateurs what's called a customer walk. Where it starts in the parking lot...Walk into the lobby, stand there...look around, be a customer...write it down. There's your action items for the day.” —Sal Rotolo [40:26]
• Involve All Staff: Empower every team member to look for details and maintain high standards consistently.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On experience vs. food:

  • “We don't sell food, we serve food...we sell the experience, right? Like, that's what we're...they're coming to eat, but what they're really coming for is the experience.” —Chip Klose [19:57]

• On impactful mistakes:

  • “I've created more lifetime guests from that interaction than anything else.” —Sal Rotolo [19:35]

• On customer attitude:

  • “Customers are never an interruption of our day. They're the reason we're here." —Sal Rotolo [28:19]

• On making guests feel special:

  • “Our job, at its most basic level, is to make people feel important. And luckily for us, the people that we take care of are important...” —Chip Klose [23:49]

• On operationalizing friendliness:

  • “Let me give you three easy ways...three cheat codes for doing it.” —Chip Klose [27:48]

• On the “customer walk”:

  • “Be the customer…Go out in the parking lot, pretend you're a customer, take a note, paper and pen, and start being a customer and keep writing down...there's your action items for the day.” —Sal Rotolo [40:26]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Opening premise—selling experiences: [00:00]
• Details, Details, Details story: [06:59]
• Salesmanship as service: [07:53–10:57]
• Theater performance analogy: [12:34–13:48]
• Capos speakeasy experience: [15:39]
• Creating regulars via adversity: [18:29]
• Making guests feel important/Sunnyside Kitchen story: [24:21]
• Practical staff encouragement (“customers are not an interruption”): [28:19]
• Designing the environment—lighting, seating, senses: [33:10]
• Customer walk actionable advice: [40:26]

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Action Steps for Restaurant Owners

1. Audit Your Experience: Routinely walk through your restaurant as a guest, noting sensory cues, cleanliness, atmosphere, and staff interactions.
2. Prioritize Details: Ensure every touchpoint (menus, setup, restrooms, lighting, music) is intentional and high quality.
3. Recruit Right, Train Consistently: Hire personable staff; regularly model and coach engaging service behaviors.
4. Operationalize Personableness: Give staff concrete scripts or tricks (e.g., commenting on guest apparel) to personalize each interaction.
5. Embrace Mistakes as Opportunities: Train staff to see guest complaints as a chance to build loyalty.
6. Design for Memory: Use sensory triggers (smells, textures, visuals) to make experiences unforgettable.

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Episode Takeaway

Great restaurants don’t just serve food—they choreograph entire experiences. Attention to detail, personalized service, and designing for memorable sensory moments create passionate advocates and loyal regulars. Every restaurateur’s goal should be to “dial in” guest experience from start to finish.

Transcript

[A]

You do not sell food. You sell an experience. The experience of coming in and dining at your restaurant. If people need food, they could get it for cheaper by just going to the supermarket, getting some stuff, coming home and making it. But what they want is to be taken care of. They want a more interesting environment. They want people to get them stuff, bring the stuff, take it away, clean it later. All of that, you are selling the experience. Today we're going to talk about customer journey and the experience from the minute they walk in the door to the minute they walk out the door. How do you make the most of that? I'm joined by fellow restaurant coach Sal Rotolo. Can't wait for you to hear this conversation. Don't go anywhere. There's an old saying that goes something like this. You'll only find three kinds of people in the world. Those who see, those who will never see, and those who can see when shown. This is Restaurant Strategy, a podcast with answers for anyone who's looking.

Hey, everyone, thanks for tuning in. My name is Chip Close. I am your host here of the Restaurant Strategy podcast. We put out two episodes every single week. Monday's focus on operations, Thursday's focus on marketing. Because there are two sides of any successful restaurant business, the operations are interested in managing the profitability. And I believe that marketing has to do with growth. How do we get more people in the front door? How do we increase the frequency of visits? In case you don't know me, I. I wrote a book. It's called the Restaurant Marketing Mindset. I give talks all over the country. I'm the founder of the P3 mastermind. It's a group coaching program specifically geared towards independent restaurant owners to help them increase the profitability of their restaurants. I also have a membership site. This has been going on for about two and a half years. And I'm just talking about in a more deliberate way now because I know how. I know how productive and constructive it can be. It's $97 a month, but you guys can get access to it free for a month. Here's the deal. You go in there, there are dozens and dozens of online videos. There's a resource bundle with templates, spreadsheets, workbooks, ebooks, all of that. We put out these playbooks. So there are a bunch of, like, mini courses, mini videos, literally meant to teach. One little idea, one snippet, one tactic, one script. You watch them, you teach them to your staff. I know this program. This site works. It's called Restaurant Foundations. You get it free for the first month and then at the end you cancel. You cancel whenever you want. Obviously. I hope you stick around because we do ask me anything sessions every month where you get to log on to zoom and ask me whatever you want to ask me. We do masterclasses. There's a lot of great reasons to be a part of the community, but there's no other better reason than right now. Through the end of the year, we're offering a free month just for you to come in and check it out. You're going to find that link in the show notes.

What's the food cost for your third best selling entree? You don't know. With Margin Edge you could know instantly. Margin Edge is a complete restaurant management software that I like to recommend to all of the P3 members, all the clients I work with. Why? Because it helps them improve profitability. With Margin Edge you just get to snap pictures of your invoices as they come in and you get real time data in every area of your business. You can see plate costs in real time. You get daily P&LS. Your inventory count sheets are automatically updated. It saves you a ton of time and lets you make informed decisions. So I got a client P3 member, gather brewing down outside of San Antonio. They started using Margin Edge a month after they joined my program and within one month of them bringing on Margin Edge, their food costs went from 38% to 28%. It was incredible savings. That's 10 points that dropped straight to the bottom line. There's a reason I recommend Margin Edge to so many of the P3 members. It's because I know it works. If you're interested in learning more or you want to see how Gather brewing went from 38% to 28% food costs, head over to Marginedge.com chip. There's an incredible video there that talks about their story, talks about their journey with the platform. Again, margin edge.com chip see a really great. See a really great story about the folks at at Gather Brewing. Go do that now. Of course, that link is in the show notes.

So I'm thrilled to welcome Sal Rotolo back to the show. Of course, we've had him here before. He's one of the coaches who works with me and the other P3 members as part of the P3 mastermind. Sal, good to have you back.

[B]

Yeah, great to be back. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

[A]

My pleasure. So last time we had a conversation about leadership and sort of this structure, this template for running through decisions and all of that, but today I asked you I said, what do you want to talk about? And you said, let's talk about guest journey, the experience, which is something that I care a great deal about, but we don't spend time talking about it. And I'm guilty on this show of not talking about it enough, and yet that's what it's sort of all about. So tell me where we begin this conversation. We talk about guest journey. We talk about guest experience. How do you think of it? How do you explain this to others?

[B]

Well, you know, first of all, I think, you know, the guest experience and the journey is probably the most important thing. And you're right. We don't talk about it enough. Right. But it's everything. It really is everything that we've worked up to, like, our dreams of having, whatever concept it is that we've opened up and running, like, it's all about the experience that we're given to our guests. That's. That's what we're doing it for, whether that be food or ambiance or, you know, just a collaboration of the whole thing. So I like to think of it as a story, you know, from the first greeting to the last. Thank you. When they walk out the door. Every touch point.

Needs to feel intentional. It needs to feel like we're doing something together. And. And that includes every little nuance, whether it's, you know, the lighting, the music, the pace of the restaurant, just the latitude of the restaurant, the smells, the feels, the looks, everything, all the little details. You know, I. I opened up my first restaurant when I. Right before I got out of the Navy, and my dad called me, and I was in San Diego, California, and he was in Florida. And he said, sal, I want you to go talk to this guy, Victor Sorrentino. He owns Sorrentino's there in San Diego, and he's going to help you. And I was like, okay, cool. Like, how do you know this guy? He's like, oh, he's from the Village. He used to own Portovino in the Village. He's now out there in San Diego, and he's going to help you. He's going to put you on the right track and help you. And I thought, wow, this is awesome. Like, I'm going to get to talk to somebody that knows the restaurant business. And I went down there and he agreed to sit and talk with me, remembered my dad, and I waited for about an hour, and then he looked at me and sat down. He's like, sal. And with the real strong Italian accent, which I'm not going to even pretend to do right now. But.

He said, sal, it's about details. It's details, details, details. Those are the three things I have to tell you. And if I need to elaborate, I'll tell you. And this is exactly what he said to me. He said.

It'S. Those are the three things that are going to set you apart from everybody else. It's the details, the details and the details. So if your salt and pepper shakers are full and the guy across the street is not, if your salt on the right and peppers on the left, on every table, if every table setups right, and the bathroom looks good and you know it smells great when you walk in there. If you have all the little details, people are making eye contact and saying hello, which is not really a small detail, but you understand what I'm saying? You're gonna win. That's what he told me. He said, you'll win. Yeah, if you have the details on the control.

[A]

Do you know what I think about, Sal? Is that when we talk about.

Our experience, right? The dining experience, I think of two things. Number one, it's a series of transactions, right? Like, people come in and they expect to be sold to. They want us to ask if they want to drink, if they have a preference in water, do they want an appetizer, Any side dishes with their main course, do they want a glass of wine with their main course, do they want dessert? Do they want coffee? Do they want, you know, scotch? We sit there as the consumer. Consumer expects to be sold to. In fact, if we're not sold to enough, we call it bad service. Like, we're looking over our shoulder like, where's the waiter? Like, God, I just want to. I'm trying to. I'm trying to give this place more money. What they want is another glass of wine to go with their entree that's just now on the table. I love that. It's a series of transactions, and there's permission. They walk through the door and they give us permission to sell to them. The other thing I think about a lot, and I try not to take this for granted, is that most of. Especially now in the. In the. As the world goes digital, most transactions are very, very quick. Think about if you need something on Amazon, you go to Amazon, you look at your past orders, you reorder the same crap you already got, right? If you walk into a store, you're window shopping. You may buy something, you may not buy something. Maybe you'll try something on, maybe you won't try it on. But here with us, people are with us for a long time. Even in a quick service, you know, they come in order at the counter, sit down, they're there with us for 20 or 25 minutes. The average transaction in a CVS isn't 20 minutes. The average transaction online isn't 20 minutes.

[B]

20.

[A]

That, that's, that's something we can't take for granted.

[B]

No, I listen. I preach this all the time to franchisees and restaurant owners all the time. Say, listen, when people walk in your door, they're looking for help. Like, if they didn't want help figuring out what they wanted to eat or what they wanted to drink or being taken care of or feeling special and feeling welcome, they would have just. They stood at home, they would have ate at home. Like, when they walk in your door, it's. It's go time. Like, you have to really focus on them, make them feel welcome when they walk in the door. You know, I always, I love it when the staff comes out from behind the counter at any. If it's not full service. Right. For now at the counter, I love it. I think it's awesome when they come out from behind the counter and I teach my staff to do this. Come out if they've never been to that store before, come out from behind the counter, stand next to them, ask them what their first name is, tell them what your first name is. And then, you know, specifically the protein House, if we were talking about that. Yeah, you know, I, I always tell them, hey, you know, this is protein House. So let's start with the protein, right? You want. Feel like chicken today, Beef today. And then I'll go into some detail about our chicken, our beef, and our proteins and things like that and help them make a choice and cut down that menu for them to the point Chip, where I usually tell them what they're going to eat. Like, if somebody says, oh, you know, I feel like having bison and a wrap, I'm like, oh, you're having the bison cheesesteak wrap. Like, oh, I am like, absolutely. You're having that thousand percent. It's awesome. You know, I think it's true. You.

[A]

We don't. We don't. So it's so funny. We always say we want a, you know, team of salespeople, not order takers. But. But I mean that, because there's a way sales equals service and better salesmanship actually equals better service and better experience. I always say, people come in, I'll back up and just say, there's. There's a. There's a story that connects to this, and I always like pulling examples from other parts of my life. Anybody who's listening to this for a while knows that I came to New York City 20 some years ago, 24 years ago, to be an actor, right? I came here to pursue a career in theater. So I got to know a lot of theater writers and directors and designers and stuff like that. And there's this one director I worked with, and he said. And he was giving an interview, so I was just, you know, in the audience watching this thing, and he's like, you don't understand the audience, right? They all funnel in. They bought their ticket, they heard this show was good. They funnel in. There's 2,000 of them in the theater. The lights go down and the curtain goes up. And he says, and I'll save the really colorful language, but he goes, they are screwed. Lights go down, curtain comes up. They are screwed. They don't know anything. So our job is to put them at ease as quickly as possible. He said, we have to know, who should I care about? What am I looking at, what time period? Right? So the sets, the colors, the costumes, tell me. Oh, I'm a York City. Oh, it's the 1940s. Oh, this is the person I'm going to be caring about, right? So I learn where I am, I learn the time, you know, the time period I am. I get to know my protagonist. You know, I get to know what they want, I get to know who's against them. I. I get to see their obstacles. The sooner we can put everybody else at ease so that they know where are they, when are they who. Like the who, where, when and why. And it's not dissimilar. And he just says, again, lights go down, curtain comes up, and they are screwed. So your job is to help them. They don't know what they're doing. And I think about that a lot. When we talk about, even in a place like Protein House, right, where it's, you know, counter service, it's the same thing. Your job is to assume they need help. You are the expert, right? We are the experts. We have designed the logo, the layout of the store, the menu, the design of the menu, the font, the. We've trained our servers, we've all of that to make it easier for people to have a really, really great experience, to have a great interaction with us. And I just. I go back to that theater world because I think restaurants are so close to theater. We're backstage or we're on stage, right? Like it's one thing or the other. And our job is to guide them through. Nobody has any idea. Even when I go, as many restaurants as I've been to, right? As many great restaurants, nice restaurants, I walk in and I go, you tell me what's the best way to experience this place? Show me the best possible night I can have within these four walls and we can extrapolate that as far out as it goes.

[B]

No, I agree a thousand percent. You know, I also train, which you just reminded me again of as you were talking, was to set the show, right? I always train my staff to understand without a doubt that this is a performance, right? I don't expect you to act like you act at home, right? I expect you to act like a performance, right? You have a uniform on equals costume. Same thing like a cop, a doctor, a lawyer. All of these people have uniforms on, right? That's what they have on. It's a uniform, but it's a costume. And that's what we wear in the restaurant business. And we're paid for our shift. Four hours, six hours, whatever it is, to put on a performance, right? That means yes, over the top hellos and, you know, over the top goodbyes and a lot of attention to them and asking questions about their life and, you know, how things are going and things like that, you know, just becoming personal with them goes way beyond the food. And I think you touch on this better than anybody I've ever heard before, is about what's special, right? What's special about your restaurant, right? What is it that people are going to take a picture of or remember or talk about or, or, or, or advocate for you, right? And that's what a guest experience creates, right? Advocators, right? If you create an amazing guest experience, they're going to talk about it. They're going to go around and talk about it. You know, we have this place here in Las Vegas called Capos. I don't know if you ever heard of it. No, but it's like it's an old speakeasy restaurant and they have a bunch of these in Vegas now. But I think Capos was like the first one to do this, where you don't go in the front door. There's like a side entrance that you got to go in through the back and somebody opens up, like you got to call them on the phone. There's a payphone in the room, and you call them on the phone, they answer, you tell them your reservation, and then they slide the little door open and they look at you, all weird, and they let you in and everybody, they got a piano guy in there, and everybody's dressed in period, and it's all mafia and, you know, gangster related. But it's an experience, and that's what people are going there. They're not going there for the food, by the way. I don't remember the food, just so you know. Like.

I don't remember the food, but I'm here talking about it because of everything else.

[A]

Do you know what's really interesting? I say this all the time.

Nobody cares.

The most thoughtful things that you do, all the menu development, all that. We just have to walk into it. Assuming no one cares. They care when it makes their life better. They care when it gives them a good story they can tell their brother or their buddies back at work. They care when their mom's gonna be impressed or their boss is gonna be impressed. They care. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? Best restaurant I've ever been to in my life, and I've been to a lot of great restaurants. We were in Spain last, and we went to this three Michelin star place, and we just wanted a really nice meal. We had an exceptional, exceptional experience. There were all these. We did the tasting menu. It was like 17 courses. There were dates next to each of the courses. It was when that dish hit the menu, right? Which I don't really care, except I care that there's longevity and legacy here. And I don't care about the menu development. I don't care when it went on or what was going on in the chef's life. I care about the story get to tell about that dish. And that's not me being unfeeling, because I certainly care very deeply about restaurants, but my experience of it was just that they've got all these dishes from the last 30 years, and wasn't that cool? And our favorite was this thing where the server did this and they did that, and then the thing became, it's the story I got to tell about what a cool night we had, or the wine, the specific wine they paired with it. If we go into it going, let's assume nobody cares. Let's assume everybody's had a really good bagel sandwich, everyone's had a good omelet, everyone's had a good burger, good steak before. Everyone's had. Everyone's been to a speakeasy. So, comma, however you want to say it, how do we make this one stand out? How do we make this the one where people go, that was really special. Or this is something I want to talk about, or this is a place I want to go back to. And even at a place. Even at a place as simple and straightforward as protein house, I think that thing exists to your point, coming out and say, hey, let me walk you through this. Have you been here before? Oh, it's so easy. Oh, my God. First thing first, you're not gonna have a bad meal. Everything is great. But what are you in the mood for today? Let's start with the protein. To your point, when you level it, you just talk about what we're actually talking about. It changes that interaction.

[B]

Absolutely. And they appreciate it so much. Like, that's. That's how we create regulars. And let's. Let's be clear. In the restaurant business, we definitely have to think about total value per guest, Right. It's not about that one meal. I don't know how many times I have to explain this to restaurant owners. Either when guests have a bad experience or they have a complaint or we. We miss something along the way. I actually. And call me a restaurant nerd if you want to, but I actually get really excited about that because, you know, triple. There's three reasons. One, I get to train staff, right? I get to coach staff on how to do stuff properly, what the perception of what they did, even though I'm sure there was no malice intended. But the most important thing I get to do is listen to the guests and then fix whatever issue they had, get personal with them. And I've created more lifetime guests from that interaction than anything else. I mean, that whenever there's an issue, it's an opportunity. That's what people have to remember. It's an opportunity to get in there and change that perception right away.

[A]

Sal, you know, one of the things I was. I've, I want to say on episode like eight, I talked about this in the podcast. Now we're up to, like, 490 some or whatever @ the time of recording this.

I always say, and I said way back when, you know, we don't sell food, we serve food. People come to us because they are hungry. Luckily, they get hungry three times a day. So that's. That's good for people in the restaurant business. But we sell the experience, right? Like, that's what we're. Like, they're coming to eat, but what they're really coming for is the experience. Whatever that experience, whatever that experience is. And I know I come from fine dining, so immediately a lot of listeners switch off and they say, you know, well, he's in fine dining, he's talking about the big experience. And. But I'm. I'm really.

[B]

Not. Well, let me.

[A]

Interject. Whatever. Yeah.

[B]

Please. No, I. I'll. I'll go the complete opposite direction of the fine dining with the experience. And one of the first things that was told to me and. And, you know, period of my life, and I don't know how proud I am. I don't care. It doesn't matter. I'm proud of it. I. I was a Hooters manager for a little while. It's like two or three years I managed Hooters downtown San Diego. And when I got the job.

The trainer of, you know, training me in my position and everything, and this is the thing I remember the most, him saying, and I use this all the time. He said, sal, the girls are our commodity. Just so you know that. And I was like, oh, okay. What do you mean? He's like, well, everybody has wings and beer, right? That's. That's not why people come here. It's not for the wings and beer. It's for the, you know, action. It's for the girls. It's for the interaction. I'm sorry. And the.

[A]

Girls. The novelty of.

[B]

It. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. So it's. It's across the board, not just in fine dining, but, I mean, I don't know how far detached you can get from fine dining as Hooters is 100. But the experience still matters more than the wings and beer, because he was right. And I sat there and had an epiphany and thought to myself, man, he's absolutely right. Everybody has wings and beer. You know, wings and beer. Just wings and beer. Like, I guess somebody can do it better or whatever. But it's just wings and.

[A]

Beer. Yep. So talk to me at the personal, at the, you know, the one to one level, as you're training a new server or new, you know, new cashier, new bus or new. Talk to me how you have done that, how we bring that emotional response, how we bring that storytelling into it, how we help them see and invite them in to be part of the.

[B]

Experience. Well, it has a lot to do with the establishment itself, like, what's going on there. There's a story to be told. There's something to.

To bring into. Well, first, I think. Let me say it's. I think it starts with hiring. Right. We got to hire the right people. People that are going to be obtuse and able to start conversations out of thin air, look people in their eyes, compliment them on Certain fearless type people that are able to do that. And I think that's where it starts with hiring the right people, right? And then from there, it's about exhibiting that behavior yourself. You know, getting in the lobby, letting your staff know what's acceptable and how to. How to navigate, how to, you know, approach a customer, how to say hello to them, how to talk to them, spark up conversation, let them know it's okay to be personal. It's not a machine. You don't have to be, you know, can I take your order, please? No. It should be. It should be more personable, and it starts with the man. It's all a reflection of the ownership and the management. That's. That's what it is. A store is completely a reflection. In fact, I always tell new restaurateurs, if you want to hire a great manager, go to the place that you love and talk to that manager, because it's the manager that's doing it. The manager creates that latitude, the energy, the excitement. And of course, we all know people don't leave the job they're working for. They leave the people they're working.

[A]

For. It's funny. Danny Meyer talked a lot about this, and I think Will Godaro, who is obviously a protege of Danny Meyer, wrote about this in his book, and I think he put it. He articulated it really beautifully. And he says, our job is not to feed people. Our job, at its most basic level, is to make people feel important. And luckily for us, the people that we take care of are important. They may not be important to us. They may not be VIPs, big CEOs at big companies, but they are important. They are somebody's husband, wife, child, father, mother. They are the world to some small number of people. Our job is to make them feel that way when they're in our place. Simply put, our job is to make these people feel important, make them feel seen. And I think that person, you know, the personableness, the conversations that stem from it, I think are huge and can be huge. I always tell this story, and I'll share this really quickly. When I first launched the P3 mastermind, there was a couple who joined the program, Bob and Kate Carpenter. And I love using them as an example because they were on the show, they were in the Mastermind for a long time. They were on a tiny little place, three tables inside, four tables outside. It's called Sunnyside Kitchen, just outside of San Diego to Escondido. And they're crazy. They're crazy busy. So if you've been there. If you know it. You know how crazy busy it is. Always the line out the door. And. And I was asking him, I said, what's your superpower? Why do you, you know, why do you think you're so successful? And he's like, well, I'll tell you what, it's not the breakfast sandwiches. And I laughed. And he said, and he's like, and don't get me wrong, I think they do these breakfast sandwiches, but they make paninis. And he said, don't get me wrong, I think Kate. Kate's sort of like the, you know, the. The kitchen. You know, the kitchen genius back there. And he says, they're great, but that's not why I think we are great. I don't think that's what's so special. And he said, I think it's because we care. I think it's because we like connecting. And he gave a story about. He said, you know, every single day I got a line out the door. He's like, I got eight people in line, and I always see a ninth person come into line. And I know my business can't survive with eight people in line at a time. It needs that ninth person. So my job from behind the register or behind the line, because they had an open kitchen so you can see over. So my job is to engage that ninth person and make them know it's a good idea to wait in line. It's gonna be worth it. Now, he said he got really good at looking at logos. He's like, I look at a hat, so it's a college or a football team or a baseball team or whatever. Like, there's some, you know, there's some town they went to, some, you know, Amalfi coast or, you know, something. And he says, all I do is I have about 5, 5 seconds to engage them. And the easiest thing I can do is say, hey, usc. Think Trojans are going to be any good back there? And the guy looks around and realizes he's got, you know, USC on his sweatshirt. And he's like, oh, yeah, no, no, I think they're going to be pretty bad, but, you know, I'm going to still cheer for them. He's like, oh, it's great. What do you think about this new running back? He's like, and now I've engaged them, and now I'm skipping over the eighth person, you know, the eight people, and reaching for the ninth. Except the eight people in front of him all had the exact same thing happen to them. And I Looked at whatever I could to pull attention to them, and that keeps them in line. He's like, my business thrives because I'm really good at keeping the ninth person in line. And it becomes part of the experience. And he says that personableness. He said, I have trouble teaching that I have trouble teaching people to care. And so his knack, what he told people, he says, you know what I do? I just look for a logo on the shirt. I look for a logo on the hat. I look for a town they visited. Big Sky, Montana. I can have a conversation about Big Sky. So Big Sky. Did you guys just go there this winter? I've actually never been. Is it any good? Should I go now? I've kept them in line. It's. It's so simple. But you have to, like. I would say, and this is really what I want to get to as well, I would say we have to operationalize it. So, like, it's one thing to say, hey, guys, I really need you to be personable. It's another thing to say, hey, being personable is really important. Let me give you three easy ways. Let me give you three cheat.

[B]

Codes.

[A]

Right. For doing.

[B]

It. Yep. Yeah. Leading by example and giving them examples, it goes a long way. You know, one of the things I wanted to add that, again, you always remind me of something good to say, but I guess that's being a good podcast runner is like prompting good responses. But one of the things I always teach my staff and I. And I. I don't know how I thought about this one day, but it was just like, how do I make it theirs? Like, how do I make it important to them? Right? And I just asked this kid one day, and now I use this all the time. I'm like, you're not a volunteer, are you? They're like, what? No. And I'm like, right, you want a paycheck, Right? That's why you're here. You want to get a paycheck at the end of the two weeks, and I want to give it to you. You know how we get that money? Customers. Right. So if it's as selfish as just knowing that you're going to get a paycheck, then get excited. Every time you see that customer go through the door, every time you see a customer think, yeah, I'm going to get a paycheck, and whatever makes you excited, I don't care, but get excited because. And here's the point I was trying to get at. Customers are never an interruption of our day. They're the reason we're here, and that's something that I constantly pound into my staff, is they're not an interruption. Don't roll your.

[A]

Eyes. That's.

[B]

It. Don't get frustrated. They're the reason why we're.

[A]

Here. We don't. We don't have. We don't have a business, right? So to pull this back to the. To pull this back to the theater world, I worked at this other director who said to me one time, we were rehearsing a show, and it was our first night in the theater. And so if anybody doesn't know theater, when you're opening a show, you go through previews. It's usually two or three weeks of, like, the show in front of a live audience. But it's a preview, meaning we can make little changes over the course of the two or three weeks until we get to opening night. Once we get to opening night, we lock the show, and nothing ever changes. For the most part, we're just maintaining the show, but nothing changes. But during the preview period, we're learning because we bring that. That last actor in the room, which is, you know, the audience, and they react, or they don't react, or they. They laugh when they shouldn't have laughed, or they, you know, they. They gasped when we didn't realize they were going to gasp. My very first. Very first performance, very first preview, the lights are going down, right? So the lights go to half, which tells everybody, like, sit down, shut up, stop crinkling stuff. Like, so the lights go to half before they go all the way to a blackout, and they go to half. And he goes.

And he turns to me, and he's got, like, tears in his eyes. And he said, this is always the most moving part of any show. I was like, oh, my God. This is like a big, tough guy. Like, not a. Like, not of. I don't. Not the guy I was expecting to cry. And he turned me. Literally, tears in his eyes and his. And he looks at me. He's like, I am so moved by this moment. And I was like, really? He's like, everybody decided to spend money to come here. All these people decided to spend money to come here. They entrusted that we wouldn't abuse, that we wouldn't, you know, betray them, that they wanted a good time. They wanted to learn something, feel something, whatever, and they're trusting us. And right now, they have hope. So they got. They spent money on dinner, they spent money on parking. They got a babysitter. They, like, you know, extended their day. They came right from work, went to dinner, and they came to the theater. All that money they put out, including the money they spent for us, and there's such hope right now that we don't betray that trust, that there's that moment where, like. He's like. And I'm so moved by the fact that they picked us. All the ways they could spend a thousand channels at home on their tv, all the movies playing, all the. To say nothing of all the other plays and musicals. They could have gone to see the sporting events, they could have seen the ballet. There's so many ways that they could have filled their night and they chose to spend it here. He's like, I am forever moved by that. And that's what challenges me to be the best version. He's like, and it's my job. And he's. And he said all this, like, in the 15 seconds. He's like. And our job is to make sure the actors, the crew members, the musicians understand and feel that same responsibility. He's like. And he turned to me and I was like. Couldn't help but get moved. And he was like, have I never told you that? Have I never got given you that thing before? He's. I couldn't remember if I ever told you that before. But, like, I just think it's really important so you know where I'm coming from. And then the lights went to blackout, and I was like, holy shit. I mean, it was like. And I. That. I think I heard that in 2006. And I don't think I. I don't think I've ever forgotten it. And I've opened tons of restaurants and I've done. And it just. It's every single time I was like, they picked us. Especially being in New York City. How many other restaurants could they have gone to? And they picked even nice restaurants. If I'm opening a nice restaurant, there are 200 other choices for, like, a really nice restaurant. And they picked us. I can't help but be moved by.

[B]

That. That's awesome. I love.

[A]

That. Talk to me. I want to be really respectful of your time and the listeners time. I want to talk about atmosphere, environment, how we design a space. Because this is something you. You sort of, like, touched on in the very beginning when we. When we hit record. And I want to make sure that we get this in. Talk to me about how you think about this. Talk to me about. Because you've opened places, you've owned places, you've, like, stepped in and sort of consulted with places. Talk to me about the, like, the physical experience that the light, the sound, the touch. Tell me about how you think about.

[B]

That. Well, personally, I feel like, you know, we have to think beyond the food, right? Beyond what's happening and what our mission is as far as that food is like, what, what does the place smell like? What does it sound like? What does it feel like? I, I think every sense.

Adds a layer to the memory that the guest takes home. Right. Every little bit of it takes home. And I'll tell you, this is not restaurant related, but it is along the lines of what we're talking about.

I almost opened a nut. One of those, like nut carts in the.

[A]

Mall.

[B]

Okay. One time, you know, the roasted nut carts. And the reason, the reason why I did, I wanted to do it was because I smelled those nuts from all the way on the other side of the mall, three stories up. And I, I literally stopped everything I was doing because I, I just wanted to nut. Like I smoked those roasted caramel toffee nuts and I wanted them. And as I was searching for them and got there and bought them, I thought to myself, man, this is brilliant. I love this. Because he didn't meet, he didn't have to spend a dime to get me to come over here. He just roasted up some nuts and it was the smell that brought me to.

[A]

Him.

[B]

Yeah. So I think all of that plays a role. You know, when, when I used to run Jambas out in California, I would tell the staff, first thing in the morning, I want you to juice a bunch of orange juice. You know, I don't care if you need it or not, just juice a whole pitcher of orange juice right before you open up the doors, right? Because people walk in and they get hit with that fresh OJ juice smell and they just, it's a, it's a sensory thing. They just know, oh, this is going to be good. Like, you smell those fresh squeezed oranges, it's like they're not even getting orange.

[A]

Juice. Yeah, I love.

[B]

It. So I think it all plays a role.

Even like, you know, the right time to have the right music on. Sense.

Matching all of that, putting it into the brand vibe leaves you thinking, you know, you want your guests to walk out thinking like, that wasn't just dinner, you know, that was an experience. That wasn't just lunch. That was an.

[A]

Experience. You know, I worked for, very first company I worked for in New York City was Be Our Guest restaurants. And I talk about them a lot because it was a very hard experience, was a fun place to work. But I learned a ton. It was owned by a guy named Steve Hanson, who is brilliant but maniacal. He wasn't an easy.

[B]

Guy. Work.

[A]

For. And when he opened a new restaurant and he said, we have to make people feel like it was the best version of themselves. That was at dinner tonight. He says they have to feel like they look great. He said, we have to tell them they look great. We have to make the lighting so that they like. He's like. He was crazy about the lighting in the bathrooms. He's like, you know what I hate? I hate when the. The lighting is really, like dim and attractive in there and you get up and go to the bathroom, you're like, oh, my God, I look like a. I look like a horse. Like, I just, you know, it's bright and all that. And he says, no, no, no, it should flow. It should flow really seamlessly. He would sit in every single chair, every single chair in the place and say, what's this person who's gonna sit here? What are they gonna be looking at all night? What are they gonna be looking at all night? And I watched him change seating plans, you know, floor charts. Because he said these. He said, okay, we have 160 seats in here. These 40 people don't really have much to look at. Or it's not. They're watching the door swing open all day to the kitchen, or they're watching the barista station, or they're watching. And I watched him change it. He says, this isn't going to be a four top anymore. This is going to be a two top and it's going to face out. He was willing to get rid of two covers simply because he's like, those two covers every night of the year are going to go back and not have great things to say. He's like, so fine. We got him in. We're not going to get them back and they're not saying good things about us. He's like, it's actually good. And it was. I mean, I watched him take 160 seat dining rooms to 100, you know, 45 seats. He would take out 15, 16 seats just because he knew the people who were sitting here weren't gonna have a great.

[B]

Time. Yeah. Details, details.

[A]

Details. Details matter. My last story I'm gonna tell and it's now you've brought me. Cause we're talking about experiencing. And I do one last story from my theater days a million years ago. So there's a very famous play called Our Town. Our Town was written by Thornton Wilder. I'm sure everybody's seen it. I'm sure everybody's high school has done it. There was an Off Broadway production directed by a guy named David Cromer, who's this brilliant, you know, Off Broadway, Broadway director. He's an actor as well, but just a brilliant director. And he did this Off Broadway production. And Our Town takes place, I don't know, 100 years ago, and it's about a girl who dies and is basically comes back to sea life in this very small, plain town. And it's a play where nothing happens and yet everything is happening. And it's really moving if you let yourself go there. But it's slow and plodding and all this. And she's able to come back and sort of experience one last time. And there are three acts, which just makes it sort of unique. And in the third act, when, you know, when she gets to go back and actually, like, live it again, we're sitting in this small Off Broadway. I'm getting chills just thinking about it. At the end, as Act 3 starts, the back door, the back wall, like flies out. And all you smell is toast and bacon because Mother's making breakfast at the breakfast table now. Everybody was in street clothes, contemporary clothes, for the entire play. And Act 3 starts, and everyone's in period clothes. So now we've gone back, and now we feel it, but not only feeling it, with costumes and lighting, but he actually had toast toasting and bacon sizzling on there. He's like, toast and bacon. He's like, you smell it. This has been, I don't know, 16, 17 years since this. This production was out. And I still get emotional, love it. I still well up because the. The visceral reaction of sitting in that theater with a couple hundred other people and smelling that feeling that you're like, oh, my God, I'm back at my breakfast table. I'm. I'm 10 again. I'm. I'm 14.

[B]

Again. It's.

[A]

Great. It was like such a. Such a moment that even in a theatrical space, it's like, I don't know who's cooking toast, like, who's toasting toast on stage. But they did. Who's sizzling bacon? He was like, he knew. It's better than any lighting trick than any line in the play. And you know what? We walk out of there to bring this all full circle. You know what I talk about? I don't know who was in the play. I can't remember anybody. I remember David Cromer because I remember thinking really deeply about it back then, But I remember the damn toast and the bacon. That's the thing that I latch onto, that. This was the guy who did Our town but had toast and bacon in Act 3. And it was like. Like, that was like a thing he thought about, like, the experience. What. How are they going to experience it? And knowing that there are other tools at our disposal. Again, smell, taste. I mean, yes, taste is obvious, but, you know, touch, like the tables. How do they feel the seats? What. What are we looking at? What are they. Everything, you know, how does this. The whole thing unfold?

[B]

100. Yeah, they gotta. They got to be moved, you know, when they're.

[A]

There. So one final question here. So somebody sitting here listening to it, and they go, oh, I don't think. I don't think I've been as thoughtful about this. How do they. How do they begin to take steps so just to make this actionable.

[B]

For the listeners, you know, I think the best thing to do is be a customer. Like, be the customer. Just like the example you're giving earlier where go through every step. I teach restaurateurs what's called a customer walk. Where it starts in the. In the dry. In the. In the parking lot, right? What does the parking lot look like? You know, are there straw wrappers everywhere and napkins everywhere? Is it presentable? What is. Walk up to the door. What do the doors look like? Or they have fingerprints all over them. Grease, smudges. Like, do the doors need to be cleaned? Walk into the lobby, stand there for a second, look around, be a customer. Be the. And by the way, be that customer, right? Be the one that sees everything and that has a problem with everything. And, you know, and then I even teach it to staff, right? When, you know, the restaurant business, we teach a time to lean, time to clean. Well, I always tell them, hey, you want a real easy way to get a list of things to do? Well, do a customer walk. Go out in the parking lot, pretend you're a customer, Take a note, paper and pen, and start being a customer and keep writing down. Bathrooms need attention. Dining room needs attention. Doors can used to be clean. Like, music's too loud in here. Staff never greeted me. Like, whatever it is, just write it down. And then there's your action items for the day. So I think the best way to feel and experience what the customer is going to experience is to be the customer. Just like that example you gave where that guy sat in every seat and was willing to lose covers for the guest experience. Why? Because he knows it's it's just as important, if not more important than the food that you're.

[A]

Serving. Yep, yep, for sure. I love it. The customer walk, I was taught something similar and it was impactful. I definitely recommend doing that once a week, for sure. And teaching, teaching all your managers how to do that. Sal, appreciate it. I love your stories. I love your perspective. Thank you so much for taking time to share it here.

[B]

Today. Thank you, Chip. I appreciate this, man. This is so fun. Thank you so much. I appreciate.

[A]

It. It's a blast. Everybody listening. I appreciate you taking time out of your day to listen to this. I know there's a lot of things you could be doing. I know there's a lot of great podcasts you could be listening to. So I appreciate you spending time here with us. If you have any questions about the P3 mastermind, of course, that's the group coaching program that that we run. The best way to get started is restaurantstrategypodcast.com schedule and as always, you're going to find that link in the show notes. Thanks very much, you guys, and I will see you next time.