Interview with Andrew Roy, Host of Serves You Right Podcast

Summary

RESTAURANT STRATEGY PODCAST — EPISODE SUMMARY

Episode: Interview with Andrew Roy, Host of Serves You Right Podcast
Host: Chip Klose
Date: May 4, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this insightful episode of the Restaurant Strategy podcast, host Chip Klose welcomes Andrew Roy, General Manager of Mahogany Prime Steakhouse and host of the "Serves You Right" podcast. Together, they dig into the complex relationship between restaurant owners and operators, especially the journey of finding, training, and empowering great managers. The conversation weaves through personal anecdotes, nuanced management philosophy, and practical, actionable advice aimed at independent restaurant leaders looking to drive real profitability and develop resilient management teams.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Challenges of the Manager Pipeline

• No Clear Pathway to Management
  Both Chip and Andrew share their experiences that the industry often promotes from within based solely on tenure or capability, with little formal training.

  • [06:37] "One of the reasons why our restaurants struggle... is because there is no path into it in our industry... It's sort of like if you present yourself as capable and you're the last one standing... 'Can you manage? Great, you're the new manager.'" — Chip

• Perception of Restaurant Careers
  In the US, hospitality careers—management included—are often seen as ‘for the help’ rather than a respected profession. Both discuss personal and family perceptions that reinforce this stigma.

  • [08:45] Andrew shares that his religious, non-hospitality family never fully understood his career, “So you're spending all your time in a bar. It just never kind of clicked for them.”

The Babysitter Manager Problem

• Authority vs. Responsibility
  Andrew discusses early management jobs where he had the title, but no real authority—serving as a “glorified babysitter.”
  • [09:21] "I didn't have any authority at all. I was more of a glorified babysitter than a manager... there was nothing I could really do." — Andrew
  • Both agree this is common, and it leads to chronic reactivity (putting out fires) rather than proactive leadership.

Blame, Ownership, and Leadership

• Finger Pointing and Leadership Mirrors
  Chip frequently invokes Jim Collins’ “mirror and window” metaphor from Good to Great: great leaders look in the mirror (own the problem) before looking out the window (blaming others).

  • [14:00] "A great leader... always looks in the mirror before they look out the window... If you own the problem, you also get to own the solution, which is very empowering." — Chip

• Eradicating the Complaining Culture

  • Chip’s leadership philosophy is to replace complaints with solutions, from the top down.
    • [14:50] “Complaining... means you don't have a choice. And you have a choice... So there's no room for complaining here. If you are here, it's because you like this better than any of your other options. So you are either part of the solution or you're part of the problem.” — Chip

Building Authority & Buy-In

• Empowering Managers
  Andrew describes Mahogany's practice: requiring managers to learn every station, giving them progressive authority, and tying compensation directly to profits, including a buy-in structure.

  • [17:25] “They force everyone to go through every hourly position... They give their managers a lot of authority, a lot of ability to change things, and they tie their pay to profits... every six months... a bigger percentage of the profits.” — Andrew

• The Power of Incentives
  Both praise profit-sharing and ‘ownership thinking’ for driving initiative and long-term thinking in managers.

  • [20:11] “The best jobs that I've been in, the managers... participate in the bottom line... because it gets people to think like owners.” — Chip

• Intrinsic Motivation & Personal Growth
  Touching on Daniel Pink’s Drive, Chip argues that many accomplishments in life—including great management—come from intrinsic motivation, curiosity, and pride, not just carrots or sticks.

  • [21:37] “It's deeper than that [carrots and sticks]... People do it based on pride or curiosity or a desire to just to win or to succeed or to show people you can do it.” — Chip

Delegation and Development

• Giving Ownership of Departments
  Chip reveals his mentoring approach: every manager owns a domain (inventory, training, etc.), fostering true ownership and decision-making skills.

  • [25:29] “Every manager... had ownership of something... He's the keeper of the inventory. He knows where our pars are at... I’m delegating... I'm empowering Todd...” — Chip

• Rotation and Growth
  As managers grow, responsibilities shift, enabling them to cross-train and replace one another, just as in kitchen brigade systems.

The Myth of the "Batteries-Included" Manager

• Managers Are Built, Not Found
  Both agree that most strong managers are developed from within, not simply "found" already fully formed.

  • [30:28] "You can't find them... If they walk in, batteries included... you just won the lottery. But we don't find great managers. We build them, we make them.” — Chip

• Openness and Capacity to Learn
  Chip cites Danny Meyer’s “51 percenters”—hire for warmth, curiosity, and capacity to learn, because skills can be taught but not temperament.

  • [33:30] “You can give someone an Excel class, but not a kindness class.” — Andrew

Performance, Firing, and Difficult Conversations

• Cutting the Cord: When to Let Go?
  Andrew compares two problem employees: one struggled with technical tasks (resolved relatively quickly), another with personality/fit (much harder to resolve).

  • [34:14] “One was an inability to do the mechanical functions... The other one... is all about people, and some people just can't tone it down... it's hard to write someone up for a feeling that someone else has.” — Andrew

• Approaching Difficult Feedback With Generosity
  Both advocate addressing problems generously, with questions rather than accusations. Chip paraphrases Danny Meyer: "constant gentle pressure."

  • [41:00] “Lead with generosity... ‘Amy, this is the third time you've been late this month. Help me understand how can we make this no longer be a problem?’” — Chip

• Shortcuts for Training Managers

  • [41:11] “If you come out guns blazing, they're going to come out guns blazing too.” — Andrew

Final Lessons and Takeaways

• It's a People Business

  • [43:50] “Ours is a people business, right? We buy from people, we serve to people, we hire people to take care of people. Like it's all the way, all the way around.” — Chip

• Words of Wisdom

  • [45:11] “Trust yourself, you know whether or not that person is a people person, you know, pretty quickly.” — Andrew

• Try Before Promoting

  • [45:35] Andrew’s practical tip is to "start someone at a position down" if there's any uncertainty, allowing real-world observation of attitude and fit before granting authority.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [06:37] “It's just that, it's like the lead server…hang around long enough, okay, we'll let you do this thing rather than…give you the skill set...to succeed.” — Chip
• [09:21] “I was more of a glorified babysitter than a manager...there was nothing I could really do besides reporting.” — Andrew
• [14:50] “Complaining is a virus...If you are here, it's because you like this better than any of your other options” — Chip
• [20:11] “You really get to learn...I need to know all these systems…because you’re protecting your money now and then.” — Andrew
• [30:28] “You can't find them [great managers]...But we don't find great managers. We build them, we make them.” — Chip
• [33:30] “You can give someone an Excel class, but not a kindness class.” — Andrew
• [41:00] “Lead with generosity...How can I help? How can I help ease this? What do you need from me?” — Chip

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:31] Andrew's career trajectory in hospitality
• [05:37] Motivation behind the "Serves You Right" podcast
• [06:37] Why management is often a side-door promotion in restaurants
• [09:21] Early management as a "glorified babysitter"
• [14:00] The leadership mirror: owner accountability
• [17:25] Mahogany’s management training—rotation & profit-sharing
• [20:11] Intrinsic vs. extrinsic motivation (Daniel Pink’s Drive)
• [25:29] Delegation & building ownership in management
• [30:28] Great managers are built, not found
• [33:30] “Capacity to learn” as the key hiring marker
• [34:14] When to cut bait: recognizing mis-hires
• [41:00] Always begin difficult talks with generous questions
• [43:50] Embracing the people business
• [45:11] Last advice: trust your gut on people

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Connect with Andrew Roy

• Website: servesyourightpod.com – Contact, podcast episodes, and information

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Tone & Language:
This episode is conversational, candid, and deeply practical. Chip and Andrew are honest about their own mistakes, open about the messy realities of management, and generous in their advice. The tone is empathetic and collaborative, with humor and humility woven throughout.

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Summary For New Listeners:
If you haven’t listened, this episode zeroes in on the real work of management in independent restaurants: how leaders are made, not found; why authority and responsibility must go hand in hand; and how a culture of humility, accountability, and intrinsic motivation are essential to sustainable profitability. It’s a must-listen for anyone looking to grow restaurants through people, not just process.

Transcript

[A]

We've talked about this before. I will remind you again. Jim Collins wrote this in his book Good to Great, way back in 2001. A great leader always looks in the mirror before they look out the window, meaning they take ownership of the problems. The buck has to stop somewhere. The owner, the CEO is all the way at the top of the food chain. It doesn't go any higher. So when you complain about the managers being lazy, naturally my question is, well, why did you hire such a lazy manager? Or why didn't you train the lazy out of them? Or even after they've shown you that they are lazy and can't be trained properly, why do you insist on keeping them around? It's nobody else's fault except for you. Complaining is a virus and we have to get rid of it. Today we're talking all about the relationship between owners and operators, owners and managers. How do you find managers? Train managers, develop managers? How do you get the most from people? I'm joined by a guy named Andrew Royce. I can't wait for you to hear this conversation. There's an old saying that goes something like this. You'll only find three kinds of people in the world. Those who see, those who will never see, and those who can see when shown. This is Restaurant Strategy, a podcast with answers for anyone who's looking. Hey everyone, thanks for tuning in. My name is Chip Close. I am your host here of the Restaurant Strategy Podcast. We put out two episodes every single week. If you don't know me, I'm a 25 year veteran in this industry. I have an MBA in food marketing. I wrote a book, it's called the Restaurant Marketing Mindset. I give talks all over the country. I host a coaching program called the P3 mastermind. But I also have a membership site, it's called Restaurant Foundations. It's for restaurants that are just starting out. So just looking to grow. If you want to dial in your leadership, you want to build some stability with your marketing, you want to grow revenue. All of that can be found in Restaurant Foundations and you get access absolutely for free for the first 30 days. After that it's $97 a month. Obviously, I hope you stick around for a long time because we're always adding new content to that platform. But why not go check it out for free Restaurant Foundations. You're going to find that link in the show notes. Now, do you know what the cost is on your third best selling entree With Margin Edge, you could know that food cost percentage instantly. See, Margin Edge is a complete restaurant Management software that I recommend to all of the P3 members, anyone looking to improve their profitability. With Margin Edge, you just snap pictures of your invoices as they come in and you get real time data for every area of your business. You can see plate costs in real time. You get a daily P and L, your inventory count sheets are automatically up updated. I'm telling you, it saves you a ton of time and it lets you make really informed decisions. I have a client, Gather Brewing. They're down outside of San Antonio. They just opened a second location in Boise. They started using Margin Edge at their first location and within 30 days their food costs went from 38% to 28%. I don't have to tell you what that means for the profitability of the restaurant. There's a reason I recommend this software. Margin Edge is perfect for so many of you out there. I recommend it because I know it works. You're interested in learning more or if you want to see how Gather brewing went from 38% to 28% food costs, head over to Marginedge.com chip. You watch a really cool video that they shot down at the brewery. Again, margin edge.com chip. And yes, that link is in the show notes. So my guest on today's show is a gentleman named Andrew Roy. He is the general manager of Mahogany Prime Steakhouse in Omaha, Nebraska. He also is the host of the serves you write podcast, a show that I have had the privilege of being a guest on. Today we're going to talk all about management, something that Andrew knows quite a bit about, and the relationship between an owner and an operator. Because if owners are trying to step out of the operator role, then they need a strong operator in there to take over. And how do we craft that relationship? You know, this is a topic I like talking about and I'm eager to hear Andrew's perspective on it. Andrew, welcome to the show.

[B]

Chip, good to see you again.

[A]

It's great to have this conversation over on this podcast this time. Okay, for the listeners here, give a quick little overview of sort of your trajectory, what you've been doing, how you got to the position that you're in.

[B]

Oh, sure, sure, sure. So I've been in hospitality for 20 years. I've done everything from dishwasher, waiter, really strong in the bartending side of things. And then I started doing a little bit of management in Santa Fe where I met my wife. Not really the best manager back then. We can talk about that later because maybe a little bit my youth and maybe a little bit the place I was working moved to go take care of her parents, and we got hooked up with this steakhouse, Mahogany. And I started here as a server because I have a really strong wine background and, you know, they were looking for a manager and I thought, might as well give it a shot again. And then eight years later, I'm running my own spot here in Omaha. And yeah, that's. That's the 30,000 foot view.

[A]

Absolutely. And the podcast, tell me the again for the listeners, because I think mine is certainly not the only podcast they listen to. That's the best part about it, is that there are a whole bunch of us having conversations like this. So talk to me about your podcast. What space does it feel? Why did you want to start it? And why should people go listen over there?

[B]

Sure, sure. You know, a lot of what my podcast is, is I'm picturing myself five, ten years ago, and what would I have wanted to know? What would I have wanted to hear? I feel like, especially if you are in the front of house in the hourly side of things, there is a general atmosphere of just kind of pessimism and just, you know, I don't care about this job. It's just for the money, work as little as possible. And it's an attitude that kind of infected me that I've been trying to extricate day by day. And I'm trying to find people who are doing impressive things and exciting things in the restaurant world. And I'm trying to redefine that story where it's. It's not just something that I fell into, but it's something that I fell in love with and being okay with that. So I'm just trying to talk to, you know, 22 year old Andrew and tell him, like, it's okay to like this. It's okay that you're doing this job. It's also okay to work hard and you should probably take life a little more seriously.

[A]

So, so let me pull at that thread a little bit more because I feel really strongly about this, I think, and I'm, I'm sure we'll get to this. So I'll use this as a, as a kickstart into it. But I think one of the reasons why our, I believe one of the reasons why our restaurants struggle, one of the reasons why our managers struggle is because there is no, there is no path into it in our industry. It's sort of like if you present yourself as capable and you're the last one standing. Right. What's the joke is that general Manager was in the restaurant last night doing something he shouldn't have. So the owner's got to come in, got to fire him the next morning. And we look around and we say, you, you. Hey, can you manage? Can you manage? Great. You're the new. You're the new manager. It's just that it's like the lead server, the best server, the most senior server then becomes the bartender, the bar manager, the floor manager, the general manager. It's sort of like, you hang around long enough, okay, we'll let you do this thing rather than any other industry where we actually give you the skill set, you know, the skills to succeed at your job. And I think a lot of restaurants struggle because a lot of the restaurant managers struggle. And I think that all stems from us not having a path forward. I too, took the side door into this industry, and certainly there were plenty of years where I've been open about this. I moved to New York City to pursue a career in theater. And so all the time spent in restaurants. Cause that's what I did in between gigs. All the time spent in restaurants was just a reminder that I wasn't doing what I was supposed to be doing. And it was that way for a long time until I realized the creativity that existed there and sort of the passion that existed there and that you could present yourself as capable and curious. And the path was just open wide, at least for me, and I think it is for most people. But it took a while for me to break past that because here in this country, restaurants, certainly restaurant management and even ownership isn't really like. Isn't really, you know, the service industry. Hospitality isn't something that's woven into us. It's just the help, the servers, the servants, rather than in many other parts of the world, where it really is a noble and respected career path.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, just to add on to that too, my. My parents really did understand it. They didn't come from a hospitality background, so they are pretty religious, Southern Baptist, and they're not big on drinking. And it seemed. It's kind of a questioning eye. And it's like, so you're spending all your time in a bar. You know, it just never kind of clicked for them, which is, you know, it's its own thing. And I mean, was very much that I was the last one standing at a lot of restaurants. So I think you do have a point.

[A]

Me too.

[B]

Yeah. And actually we can go with my first ever experience with. Well, I'll with air quotes say management. It was a little Italian place. And I became the bartender here, honestly, because I was one of the ones that just had the longest tenure. And I just kept showing up. It's actually a theme in my work experience. And there are a lot of good and bad things about this spot, and I'm not going to say where it was exactly. But one thing I do want to point out, and I think this is something that people have a danger of. If you're an owner looking for some help, looking to get out of the restaurant. I didn't realize it until after the fact. After working this job, it was really a position where I didn't have any authority at all. I was more of a glorified babysitter than a manager, which, I mean, did serve a function in one side. You know, we did have someone watching the kids, but at the end of the day, there was no change that I could affect. There was nothing I could really do besides reporting to the owners and the general manager what was happening. You know, I just.

[A]

This is how we treat restaurant managers. Restaurant managers are the babysitters. And so many of our. So many of our concepts, it's just we need an adult in the room in case something catches on fire to go. I mean, literally, we just, you know, that's all we. That's the joke, right? Is we spend all our days just putting out fires. And it would be better if we had somebody walking around being like, let's look for things that are. That might catch on fire. And let's get out ahead of that. Let's be proactive rather than reactive. You know, so much of our job inevitably, will be reactive because, you know, somebody overcooks the food, we gotta go to the table and say, hey, I'm so sorry. It's gonna be a few more minutes. We have to be reactive in that moment. Nobody meant to overcook the food. Nobody meant to, you know, drop a pan or drop a plate, like. But these things happen. That's fine. There are moments where we'll be reactive, but to make the entirety of our position reactive is just insane to me. It's hard enough. Let's see. Let's see how much of this we can get out in front of.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I like that. Can you defuse the guests before you have to call 91 1? Can you?

[A]

And honestly, I think the guests are often the least of our worries. They're the best, you know, and I understand, right. They're the best part of what we do, and they're the worst part of what we do. Or they can be the worst part of what we do. But the guests aren't. When things go wrong, I mean, I mean, it really isn't. It isn't because, you know, the guest is impatient. Like, I don't know, I'm a pretty patient guy and I lose, you know, my patience runs out. You know, I'm patient in a restaurant because I've done it, I know it. I don't think we get a lot of those, like unrealistically demanding guests. Sure, we have some, certainly at a high end place like a steakhouse, but that isn't the majority of what we're supposed to do. Majority of what we're supposed to do is like, here's the idea of being proactive. It's like, hey, we got a lot of people who make a lot of money who are gonna come in here and dine on a Thursday night. You know, the kind of people who can spend 200 plus dollars ahead for a really nice steak and a really nice bottle of wine. So those people who, what kind of people are they going to be? Are they going to be sort of demanding? Are they going to, you know, time is their most precious commodity. So this is no surprise. We know our dining room is going to be filled with a lot of people who fit that bill. So let's prepare our operation, you know, to get ready for that. We know who the enemy is, and I hate saying the enemy, but it's like in battle, in war, right? This is all that, you know, the art of war. This is all that stuff, you know, know your enemy. We know who that. We know who's coming in. We know who we get to serve. We know what they're like. And the better we know them, the better we can serve them. There's no surprise when you open up the door and you see the people who fill your dining room, you're like, yep, that's pretty much who I figured was gonna come in tonight. When you've run that restaurant for long enough, you know who your people are. So we should also get better at like serving them.

[B]

Yeah. And I mean, there's that natural tendency just, it's very human when something goes wrong to point the finger out. And it's like, I don't know why they're so stressed about time. It's like, well, Sally, you did forget to put their food in for 15 minutes. Like there always is a story somewhere. And I mean, you kind of touched on this. Yes. Probably 1% of the population is crazy, truly crazy. And you get some Weird complaints. You just do. I. I've had everything from, like, we should change the music in this restaurant, to, like, things like, I've just kind of brushed off because I'm like, what? I don't even know how to respond to that. But 99% of the time, where there's smoke, there's fire.

[A]

Talk to me. Because I think this idea of pointing fingers, I think that'll get us into the heart of what we're going to talk about here today. One of the things that I talk about with my coach, so I think everybody knows I run a coaching program. It's called the P3 mastermind. It's a group coaching format where I get a whole bunch of restaurant owners on a call every single week. More than anything, it's a. It's executive coaching. So, yes, I'm teaching them how to make more money. Yes, I'm teaching them how to better manage their time and their people. But really, it's executive coaching, teaching these individuals how to be the very best leaders they can be so that they can continue to grow their businesses. And one of the things that's foundational to what I teach is that it's this idea that Jim Collins put forth in his book Good to great back in 2001. He said, A great leader, and he calls it a level five leader. Says, you know, level five leader always looks in the mirror before they look out the window. Is it if. If a. If you get to own the problem, you also get to own the solution, which is very empowering. So I always say to restaurant owners, like, let's assume, because it's really easy for any of us to point the finger. Well, like that, you know, food took too long, or, you know, my manager's not doing what they're supposed to, or this and that. You know, I always use the example, right? Like, you know, my managers are really lazy, right? And to that I'll ask the, you know, the owner, I'll say, so it begs the question, why did you hire a lazy person, right? Or why didn't you train the. The lazy out of them? Say, hey, I see your natural inclination is to do this and this and this and this. But that's really not going to work here. Because the way we do it here is, blah, blah, blah. So, number one, why did you hire that person? Number two, why didn't you train that out of the person? And number three, it begs the question, if over weeks and weeks and weeks and months and months, you have noticed this repeated behavior, why have you kept Such a loser around. And the answer always comes back to the owner. The owner has to take ownership of that because again, if they take ownership of the problem, they also get to take ownership of the solution. Complaints. Complaints are reserved for when you have no agency. Right. I always tell this even down to waiters when they complain, as we don't complain here. Right. So especially when I'll come in as a consultant. I said we don't complain here because complaining means you don't have a choice. And you have a choice. There are plenty of other jobs. You could get Starbucks, Target, the restaurant down the street. You need a job to pay your bills. And so let's assume you are an intelligent, capable individual. You could find other places to make money, right? So there's no room for complaining here. If you are here, it's because you like this better than any of your other options. So you are either part of the solution or you're part of the problem. And when you stand around and complain, you are not part of the solution. So by nature, you are part of the problem. And that works for every single person, starting with the owner all the way down. It's one of the first. That's one of the first things that I ask everybody to embrace. You are the cause of the problem, which means you get to be the solution. Just when you wrap your head around it and make the decision to solve it, you get to solve it. So talk to me. Because you talked about, you know, having the responsibility without the authority. So talk to me about when that changed or how you made that change. Certainly it seems like you're aware of it. So you have changed it as you've established yourself and your management team in your restaurant. Talk to me a little bit about that. About authority.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. You know, part of the answer, honestly, is when I first had that job, I was just too young. Like, let's put that on the table. I, 22, should not probably have had that job. Fair enough.

[A]

But you were given the job.

[B]

I was. Yeah, I know, I know. It takes two to tango, doesn't it? There is a frame that I always think through, and I love this phrasing, where I think a lot of people in life ask for far too little and demand too much. And when you make a demand, you don't. You either make someone give in or you make them the antagonist. Whereas asking empowers people. It's like, can we fix this? Can we do this? Is this something we can take charge of? That frame has served me really well. Getting in with this company was, you know, just complete happenstance. And I feel like they do a couple things very well that I've really respected. One, with the management team, they force everyone to go through every hourly position. And, you know, I think that there is a lot to be said. If you don't understand how position works, how could you manage it? You know, and to be clear, I'm not the best saute guy. I'm not the best royal guy. I got through them and we only got minimal complaints points. And then I was on the other side watching the expo line. But I did survive it. Likewise, I could do well at the host stand. But the point isn't to train me up to be a good host, it's to understand when things are going poorly there, see how I can coach and teach, understand how the books work. The other other thing I really enjoy, and I think that this is a big thing and a lot of what I think they do well. They give their managers a lot of authority, a lot of ability to change things, and they tie their pay to the profits of the business and they also make you buy in so you don't come on at a higher rate. I actually, I stepped down from server to beginning manager in terms of money at the beginning, because they start you off just base without bringing you into that. And it's a program where, you know, every six months when you have a review, if you've done well, you're going to bring yourself on to a little bit bigger percentage of the profits of the business. So you really get to learn like, okay, I need to know all these systems. I need to know how to write the schedule, I need to know how to work in the kitchen. I need to know these things also. I know the goal is in every aspect, everything I'm doing in the restaurant, eventually to help the bottom line, not only for this financial period, but for the future. Because you're protecting your money now and then. So we could all make a bunch of money by selling terrible food and we'd have a great month and then business would drop off. But you are protecting yourself now in the future, which is kind of the point. That's what the owners want. They want you bought in because that small slice that you get is great for you and it helps keep the business growing and improving and it helps them in the future too.

[A]

So let's talk about that, because what we're talking about is, you know, how do we incentivize people to do a good job? And there's a really great book that Daniel Pink wrote. It's called Drive. And if you. Nobody's ever. If you haven't read it, it's worth reading. If any of the listeners have never read it, it's definitely worth reading. But it's all about motivation, basically. Human motivation. And he, you know, calls on all these studies that have been over the years, and he basically draws the conclusion. He says, at the very beginning, he said, we basically motivate people one of two ways. With the carrot or the stick. If you do this, then you will get this reward, you will get this carrot, or you better do this or else, right? The fear of punishment, you'll get the stick. And he says, and it doesn't. It doesn't fully take into account human. Human motivation. And he says, you know, perfect example is why do. Why do people play pickup basketball on a Saturday morning? You know, why do people play video games? Why do people do puzzles? Right? It's not like you are trying to play your way into the NBA by playing pickup basketball with your friends. You have nothing else to do except for the enjoyment of it, for the camaraderie, the fun, the enjoyment. You know, why do we do puzzles? We do puzzles for the accomplishment, for the challenge, and for the sense of accomplishment that we feel at the end. He's like, it's no surprise. We know what it's gonna look like at the end. It's right there on the front of the box. We are using the front of the box to try to. He's like, so it's not even like we're trying to see what will happen. We're not trying to. There's no surprise. There's. There's. You know, we're not trying to figure out we know what it's gonna look like. We just look at the front of the box. Same thing with video games. Like, why play video games? This game's been beaten. This game's been beaten millions of times already. And he said, you know, I don't know the answer to it. And he basically spends the entire book digging deep into that. And he said, I wouldn't begin to know the answer. Or he said, you know, I'm beginning to understand the answer, But I think we have to make sure that we're all asking this question if we're running based on the character of the stick. And let me just say that I agree with you. I think the best jobs that I've been in, the managers either I've participated in or I've had the managers participate in the bottom line. Some Sort of comp package that is part of profit sharing, that has a share of the bottom line. Because I think it gets people to think like owners. But the other piece to that underneath that is every time I do it is that they start to think like owners. They take ownership, they have pride over the thing. They understand what they're trying to go for, that there's a goal in mind. It's not just the babysitter. It's not just a matter of, hey, I need you to stay here to make sure nothing happens, right? Turn on the light, you know, unlock the doors, turn on the lights, do the bank drop, check in the servers, and then do it all on the backside, you know, run the report and everything and just make sure nothing, you know, nothing catches on fire while you're here. But rather, I need you to help us hit this goal, and I need us to be profitable because that's how we become a sustainable business. And while you're here doing that, could you also turn on the lights and unlock the door and check in the staff and do some of those things? Since you're going to be a warm body here? We'll say that's part of your job, but it's not the majority of. Of your job. And I think that book drive really gets to an important question that I don't even begin to understand either. But I know it's true. I know people do it based on pride or curiosity or a desire to just to win or to succeed or to show people you can do it. I mean, think about all the things you do just to prove you could do it. I ran the Marathon in 2019. I ran the New York City Marathon. It was something that I really wanted to do for no other reason except for a sense of accomplishment. But I came in, I don't know, after the. Out of the 55,000 people, I think I finished like 24,000, 382. Like, I came right in the middle of the pack. It was only for the accomplishment. And it wasn't even like, what I did was extraordinary because roughly 55,000 other people also accomplished the same feat that year, just in New York City. So, like, why do we do the things we do? And I think. I think to reduce it down to, well, people want to be lazy or because people want to get paid. You know, we reduce it down to the character of the stick. And I think it's. I think it's deeper than that. And I think certainly you are. You're a testament to that. You and your path. And I feel like I'm a testament to that as well.

[B]

That's a funny similarity between us because I don't think we've talked about this, but I ran a Marathon in 2024 because I wanted to see the same thing. And I'm thinking as you're talking about all those things, there is kind of a, like a self rewarding pride or self rewarding feedback system where you're getting good at something and it's incredibly increasing your self worth. And it's, you know, you're like, okay, I can do this thing. This is something I'm good at. That I definitely see in people that do something. You know, something like a marathon, something like run a restaurant, make a team, improve someone's life on the team, get one of your servers through the certified SOM exam. Like those things, like those little accolades that maybe don't translate to monetary value do start adding up. You're like, okay. And you know, of the whole, like, yes, it wasn't that remarkable. Only 50,000 people did it. I would say the thing with New York is the numbers are so big that it makes it seem trivial. But you look at everyone in New York, that's still like 0.1%, 100%.

[A]

I mean, it truly is. But it's, you know, again, now we talk about perspective, right? You can view this one of two ways. Number one, you know, it's like, I think it's 0.2% of the global population has successfully completed a marathon. And you're like, but 0.2% of the entire globe is like 60 million. That's a lot of people. Correct. You're just like, like, it's just. It's not that. And so it has to do with perspective. But I know that that is an important conversation. It's so funny. You talk about, you know, getting your advance, you know, your certified sommelier, like those different certifications and things. One of the things I learned from my mentor in restaurants is he said every manager, there was no, like gm, AGM and then floor manage. It was. Even if you were, quote unquote, just a floor manager, if you weren't one of the junior people, you had ownership of something. So somebody owned hiring, training and staff development. Somebody else owned china, glass, silver, inventory. Somebody else, like, everybody had ownership of an area. And he's like, when somebody would come to and he would say this to me, he's like, you know, I'm the general manager. Somebody comes to me and says, hey, we really need to order more glasses. He's like, okay, that's not me, that's Todd. Like, I should go talk to Todd. Like, he's the keeper of the inventory. He knows where our pars are at, he knows where extras are hidden, and he knows our budget for the quarter for, you know, I don't, I don't have the purse strings on that budget. He does. Now if he says, hey, we're out of budget and you're telling me you really need it, yeah, then it'll get kicked up to me. But otherwise, Todd your guy. And so you go to Todd, say, hey, I just talked to Chris and he said, blah, blah, blah, but he said to come talk to you. So like, he's like, number one, I'm delegating. I'm getting stuff off my plate so I can work on, you know, higher level, higher order issues, but also like, I'm empowering Todd, who may be 22, 23, 24, where he's got ownership of a budget, he's learning how to take inventory and run pars, and he's getting to know vendors and he's, you know, shopping small wares and, you know, figuring out how to make the best, you know, how to stretch our budget. Hey, we use these glasses and I know you guys really like them, but man, we're breaking a lot when they go through our dishwasher. So I went ahead and I'm getting a, you know, a bunch of other glasses for us to test. I'd like to run them through the dishwasher 12 times and see how, how there's no other way to get Todd to think like that except to give Todd ownership of something. And I feel like again, this is that thing of like responsibility and authority. They go hand in hand. If you're going to make somebody responsible for something they just can't babysit, they have to have the authority to make decisions. There's a threshold to those decisions. Right. In a framework, you put guardrails on their decision making. But when they have ownership of a department and then what happens is that when somebody above them leaves. So Todd is running china glass silver inventory, which is maybe where we put our most junior person. And then somebody else leaves, Amy leaves. So then Amy was in charge of, you know, hiring, interviewing, training. Well, then I moved Todd into that and he's learning a whole different thing. And now he can oversee so he can train his replacement on how to do CGS inventory. And he steps in and he takes over the interviewing, the hiring, the training, the staff development that Amy did. And now we're teaching him different things. It's not dissimilar to what we do in back of house. The brigade system, right? As people, like, move around the kitchen, they become more valuable because I can plug them in. That's why when we finally have a sous chef, it's like, man, she's been crushing every station. And on a busy Saturday night, if somebody calls in, I know I can plug her in anywhere. And she's going to lock down that station hotline, cold line, saute, it doesn't matter. She's going to crush it. So a sous chef is more valuable to me because she's just got more skills in the. In the building. You know what I mean?

[B]

No. And, you know, it's funny because I don't often think about it that way, but that is how I run things with my management team. They all have their areas. And I was even thinking, I hire, like, I do the paperwork with every new hire just to make sure that they all hear the exact same things. And as I go through the schedule, I say the same thing to every new hire. It's like, I am always here if you ever need to talk to me about your schedule issues. But if you come to me and say I have a schedule change, I'm always going to say the same thing. That's great. Thank you for telling me. Do you mind telling John? He writes the schedule. Please, please. The only thing that I would maybe push back or maybe alter a little bit in what you said. I think there is something that you're looking for if you're an owner for management team. I've seen managers that are assigned to sections and they just don't ever seem to take it over. They seem passive. And I've also seen managers that usually do well who, they almost come, batteries included, and they walk in, they're like, oh, I'm. I'm going to be kitchen guy. You know, let's go. Oh, I'm schedule great. I got this. I can do. I'll talk to the people. I'm fine. You know, like you. You get. You see both sides and once you see it, you know it. Yeah.

[A]

So, but let's volley on this for a minute, because I get this question all the time. You know, how do I find great managers? I see you don't. You can't find them.

[B]

Them.

[A]

If they walk in, batteries included, like, amazing. You just won the lottery. But we don't find great managers. We build them, we make them. And so, yeah, I would say that. Now this gets into training and Staff development. Like, what are the things that are in place to get somebody from where they're all in 16 different pieces. And here's the instruction. Like. Like these people, you have to put them together and you have to get them to the point where they are good enough to move around the place. And I think what happens is 80% of our people, maybe more, are in that camp where especially I think we're the rarity that thinks about profitability in the way we do. But I think most restaurant managers are just used to being a babysitter. So when they come in, it's something I tell all the clients that I have, all the members of the P3 mastermind. I said, your people's heads are going to spin when you talk to them about the things that we talk about because they're not used to it. So it's not like you can interview for this and see if they think the way they. That we think. Most people. Most people won't. I think it's the rare exception. Think you think like this. I think you've got your teams rowing in that direction. But for the most part, people come in, you can't say how comfortable you are around a P and l. Talk to me about your budgets, who set your budgets? You know, how are you? Like, most people just aren't given budgets in their restaurants. They're just. They're there to babysit. And I think it's changes slowly and slowly over time, but we're not. We're not there yet.

[B]

Yeah, you know, I think. I think that's a good volley back. I think I suffer from what's called the curse of knowledge, where I. Or maybe it's more of like a. I see things through my own two eyes and I. I'm probably an anomaly in that sense where, like, there's a reason I'm 30 in a GM. Like, maybe. Maybe things are just a little bit different. And I have seen people move through the ranks and start off maybe not the most strong in different things and improve. I do think maybe instead of batteries included, I might say almost an openness, you know, like, are they. Are they willing to listen? Like, maybe.

[A]

I think that's. Yeah, I think that's different. So Danny Meyer always talked about this, right? Do they. Do they know everything we need them to know, or do they have the capacity to learn everything we need them to know? And he says, I don't look for somebody who has it all, who has all the knowledge. I don't need them to have it. He talks about the 51 percenters. Right. So if there are hard skills that we need them to have, I need them to have experience on pos or with wine knowledge or cocktails and all that. If there's things. But he said, for the most part, there's very few things I need them to have. What I need them to be is warm and pleasant and curious. I can't teach someone to be curious, but if they have curiosity, man, I can fill them up and fill them up and fill them up, and they are never. And they're never going to learn at all. So. Capacity to learn. I think it's a. I think it's a really. I think that's something that I spend a lot of time thinking about when I interview.

[B]

Yeah. And I mean, you can give someone an Excel class, but not a kindness class.

[A]

100%.

[B]

So much. Yeah. Yeah, that.

[A]

100%. So I think it's. I think it's. It's just something we don't talk about enough. Talk to me about, because I want to be respectful of your time. So I want to start pulling this to a close. But I want to talk to. I want to talk about what's happening when we get the wrong person in the place. Right. When we. When we hire and we say, man, I think this person does have the. Things can get there. How long do you give yourself before you realize, like, oh, no, this really is because people have different. You know, hire. Fast fire. Fast, higher. You know, higher, fast fire, slow development. How do you specifically think about this?

[B]

So there are two separate instances that come to mind. Two different places. I'll try not to use anything too revealing about them. One was an inability to do the mechanical functions of the job. Just could not master the computer side of things. Could not master, for whatever reason, that side of things. That one. Yeah, that went a lot longer, you know, because I feel like there's a lot more grace and it may create more work, but you. You want to give everyone every chance they could for success. You know, you didn't get it on the first time through. Maybe just do a close with me one more time. Maybe, you know, like. So.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There is a point, though, that after the third time, when you say, remember the cells are sent without the tax when you submit them, that you're like, the checklist is there. Where is this not working? Eventually you do just kind of have to. Eventually you just have to be able to do the job at some point. You know, if you can't get the numbers right and the numbers are Part of your job. What are we doing here? You know, the other one, and this one's a lot harder. This one took a lot longer there. You know, it goes back to what we were talking about. It's all about people, and some people just can't tone it down. Some people just can't relate with other people, and it's difficult, and it takes a long time, and there's a lot of ambiguity because you can say the right things in a tone, and that's really offensive if you. You know, you could be saying, I just want you to succeed, and sound like you're saying, I hate you. You know, like. And it's. It's so ambiguous that, you know, it's like, well, he just said this. Like, what. What do you mean? Like. But it's like, it's not what he said. It's how I feel. And, you know, it's. It's hard to write someone up for a feeling that someone else has. But again, I said it earlier, I think there's a lot there. Where there's smoke, there's fire, and eventually you do trace it back. And it's like, how is it that we've had three meetings about this this month? How is it that XYZ person almost quit and, like, we get along great? How is it, you know, eventually it just becomes to a point where it's like, you know, yeah, no. No matter your skills at the functions of the job, is this working out? Yeah, I know. I'm like, I hope a couple of people don't listen to this, because I don't want them to hear it. But, yeah, it's tough. It is always tough because it's never cut and dry. It never is.

[A]

Do you know what you want? My shortcuts are to just bypass this. As I'm training people, I always just say, always start with a question and how is a really powerful word, right? Like, you know, and I'm gonna be terrible giving examples. But, you know, somebody comes in, right? Server comes in, like. So I'm trying to train my manager how to, you know, provide oversight and sort of, like, make sure their servers know there are repercussions. Server comes in late for the third time in a month, right? Instead of just yelling at them, you know, I always say, like. Like, enter into it generosity. And I learned this from somebody who learned it from somebody who just, like, up the food chain. I think this is a Danny, another Danny Meyer ism, which I never worked for Danny, but I feel like I worked for a lot of People who worked for and with Danny. But it says, rather than just assuming somebody was late because they just don't care about the job or whatever, like, let's assume maybe their dog was sick or their kid was sick or, you know, let's assume the worst. Let's head into that conversation with generosity. And so they said, you know, hey, listen, Amy, I'm gonna use Amy again, right? Amy, this is the third time you've been late this month. Help me understand how can we make this no longer be a problem? How can I help you get here on time? Is there something I need to know about? Is there something, something that I can do to that? And when you lead with generosity, even if nine times out of ten there is nothing that the restaurant manager can do, it. What it does is it addresses the fact that, Amy, you're late again, but I'm not gonna have to, like, lean on you. You know, Danny always came from this idea of constant gentle pressure, right? That the consistency, right, the consistency mattered. The gentleness, sort of the softness in it. And then the pressure was that, like, there's always repercussions, there's always ramifications, but we never have to raise our voice or bring that. And so in training managers, helping them to see that, that, like, we can reprimand, but gently and understand, like, you know, Amy, this is the third time you've been late this month. We've already talked about this twice. I want to be part of the solution here. So how can I help you arrange things? What do you need from me? How can we make it so that you're on time 10 minutes early every time, moving forward, what do you need from me? Because maybe the answer is, you know what? I always have to pick my kid up from daycare and drop him with the nanny. And there's always a line at daycare, and if I'm first in line, I can get here on time, and if not, I can't. I had a very similar conversation when my son was born. And it was like, hey, listen, I'm a victim. I have to pass off the kid to my. And so what I asked, I said, I think I'm going to be late 50% of the time if I'm here. So if I'm here, if I'm the 4 o' clock person, but if I can be the 5 o' clock person every day and I'll close every night, I know I can be here. Because I can be here, I know, by 4:15, 4:20. So I will be very early for my closing shift. And if moving forward, I just close the restaurant every night, that would be incredibly helpful to me. And it was like, oh, now I had the presence of mind to sort of cut that one off at the pass. And maybe people don't have the self awareness to do that. But don't. What is it? Don't attribute to malice what can easily be explained away by whatever, whatever, whatever. The famous quote is just leading with giving people the benefit of the doubt and, and stepping into the conversation as a collaborator. And if they turn their back on that, if they sort of spit on that, well, then, okay, that's going to tell you quite a bit about that person. But if you lead it with generosity, you're like, man, listen, I did everything I could, man. I stepped into this conversation with warmth and generosity and a sense of humility and I gave you the benefit of the doubt. And I'm trying to problem solve here with you and for you. So if at the end of the day, if it still continues to be a problem, it's like, hey, listen, I did everything I could on my part and you didn't uphold your end of the deal. If there's any trick I can give you, is that always teaching the managers to lead with a question or to address the problem? Hey, Amy, this is the third time you've been late this month, so help me understand what's going on. How can I help? How can I help ease this? What do you need from me in order to make it so that you show up every day on time?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Does that make sense?

[B]

Oh, it makes complete sense. And, and kind of my, my equivalent here. I see this all the time. And it's one of the things I said to myself, said to the managers, we, we offer infinite soda refills. And it's so easy if you're a trading manager to see an empty glass and be like, why are those not filled? Whereas I might approach it as, is there a reason that those are not filled? Because, you know, maybe they said, no, no, don't give little baby Sally any more Shirley Temples, you know, you don't know. And there might be a reason that the server did it, but same thing.

[A]

Yeah, same.

[B]

Yeah. If you come out guns blazing, they're going to come out guns blazing too.

[A]

So, yeah, again, I'll use my son as another example here. So the pediatrician that we went to when we were still living in New York City really swore by sleep training at 8 weeks old. Sleep training, if anybody knows it, is where you just put the Kid to bed and you close the door and you don't go in until the morning. And at some point kids gonna wake up in the middle of the night and just cry and cry and cry and cry. And eventually what will happen on the second, third, fourth night is the child will learn to cry himself to sleep, will like learn to self soothe, which is in. Which is incredibly helpful because then we know that like, okay, he doesn't need mom or dad. And so what happens is that when five months down the line, he wakes up crying in the middle of night, we go, oh, that's, that's unusual because that's not usually he sleeps 10, 11, 12 hours through the night. So when he does wake up, we know, oh, something's wrong, something's wrong. He said, yeah, yeah, it's, it's whatever it is. And so if we operate under the assumption of, you know, everybody's always in control, it's using the sleep training example, we can go and say, hey, listen, I'm seeing empty glasses on Table 11, 12, 13. What do you need? I think I feel like you're getting a little bit backed up. How can I help you get out of this? Or what do you need to. It's like, I just assume that it's there, right? Are those empty for a reason or can I help you? It's the, it's the same thing. So that if we see that things are going right, we assume there's a reason for everything and that if we see something's wrong, then we, you know, if something's falling behind, then there's something we can do to step in, make sense.

[B]

Makes complete sense. I mean, I feel like I could talk to you all day because I also wanted to add to that sometimes the thing that's going wrong. I've seen horror stories, I've seen, oh, it turns out homies. You know, maybe drunk, you know, like, like you, you find there's all sorts of things. So you never know what people are going to bring when you're managing a restaurant. And all the good things about the job are the people and all the bad things about the job are the people. And it's just part of the job.

[A]

Ours is a, ours is a people business, right? We buy from people we serve to people, we hire people to take care of people. Like it's all the way, all the way around. So like to spend any length of time complaining about the people, just sort of like, just go work in a data center somewhere where you don't have to talk to anybody. You just press buttons on a keyboard. Ours is a people industry. And the coolest part about it is that we basically get to throw a party every night. People come to us because they're like, man, I can't. Every time I go to a steakhouse, I'm like, I can't wait. Because I will never get a char on a steak at home the way they do it here. I look forward to. Forward to, like, a really good steak with a really good char on it. I look forward to. I over order my side dishes because I'm like, when I make steak at home, I throw it on the grill. I pray that I did it right. I come up with one side dish. But here I'm like, we're getting this, we're getting that, we're getting this, we're getting that, and we're gonna throw them all in the middle. And if we got extras, who cares? We'll take it home. It's like, I just. It's the best part of what we do is we get to. Since what we do, we do it better than any of anyone else could do it at home. Like, they're coming to us saying, like, man, I can't do it like this. Like, so just take care of it. I want to be respectful of your time. Last words of wisdom. And we're talking about, like, finding managers, making managers, developing managers. Last words of wisdom on that subject.

[B]

Trust yourself, you know, whether or not that person is a people person, you know, pretty quickly, I love it.

[A]

In your experience, are you quickly. Are in certain instances, are you a fire. Quick guy or in. I mean, you said in three, with computer issues and all that, you sort of give them the benefit of the doubt and you give them a long leash. Are there instances where you're like, man, you got to. You got to go. I mean, obviously, if something's, you know, egregious.

[B]

I'm a big believer in if you have any question at all starting someone at a position down. So maybe if you're not sure if this person's going to work as a server, would you like to start with us as a host or server assistant? I feel like you can learn a lot by working with someone even if they're not in their ideal position. And it shows if they maybe don't have a strong wine background because the server one happens a lot. Does this person have work ethic? Can they learn quickly? Do they work well here? Everyone in the management team, except for one person, actually started as server or maybe more of a support staff. And just kind of work their way up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I would always rather test someone out before they have a little power than after if you're just not sure. Yeah, I love that. Let's just see what they're like in an expo before you give the kitchen keys to them.

[A]

You know, like, I think that's real. I think it's really great advice. It's something I've never. I hear a lot of people talk about a lot of things and I've never heard people say that, but I think that's really right and really good advice. Andrew, I appreciate your time. Thank you for carving out time on your day on when you probably should be doing payroll. But I appreciate here, where can people go to connect with you to the steakhouse, to the podcast with you personally, what's the best way for people to move forward?

[B]

Oh, sure. I have a website, serves you right, pod.com and I kind of have all my info there. So there's a contact form if you want to get in touch with me and listen to any of the great episodes. I've done, even one with Chip. You never know. But yeah, that's the best place to find me.

[A]

I appreciate it, Andrew. Thank you so much. Enjoy the rest of your day. Once again, big thanks to Andrew for taking time out of his day to sit and chat with me. I think this is really good. Hope you guys got a lot out of it. Definitely some new insights, things that we don't regularly talk about. Again, I will remind you I run something called the P3 mastermind. It's a group coaching program geared towards independent restaurant owners looking to dial in profitability and scale their businesses. If that's you, if you struggle to generate 15, 20, 25% profits, then we are the place to be. It's an incredible community. You're going to gain a network of other restaurant owners who are both struggling with the things you're struggling with and going to the places that you want to go. There are people who have figured out the things that you're struggling with, just like they are struggling with the things that you have figured out. That's the point of a Mastermind program, is that you trade ideas, swap ideas. If you want to learn more about it, get in touch. RestaurantStrategyPodcast.com Schedule grab time on the calendar. You'll chat with me or someone from my team and let's just see if you're a good fit again. RestaurantStrategyPodcast.com schedule as always, that link is in the show. Notes.

[B]

Sam. Sa. Sam.