1160: Michelle Corry, Co-Founder and Owner of 555, Petite Jacqueline, & 555North

Summary

Podcast Summary: Restaurant Unstoppable #1160

Guest: Michelle Corry, Co-Founder/Owner of 555, Petite Jacqueline, & 555 North
Host: Eric Cacciatore
Date: February 20, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this deep-dive interview, Eric Cacciatore sits down with veteran Portland, Maine restaurateur Michelle Corry to chart her two-decade leadership journey as co-owner of fine-dining destination 555, its companion bistro Petite Jacqueline, and her current consulting and licensing work with 555 North. Michelle shares her unique path into the industry, the keys to building a lasting culture of hospitality, the challenges and evolutions of owning versus leasing, managing growth and burnout, succession planning, and her views on the future of restaurants. With candid stories, practical advice, and reflections on work-life balance, Michelle offers inspiration and actionable wisdom for both aspiring and established restaurateurs.

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Key Topics and Insights

1. The Foundation: Building Culture Through Empathy and Hospitality

• Hospitality as a Lifestyle: Michelle, drawing from her French Laundry experience, emphasizes that hospitality is "not something you turn on and off... It's a lifestyle." (22:49)
• Empathy First: "If you can teach empathy, it helps people be really good at what they do and feel good about what they do at the end of the day." (01:25, 102:06)
• Memorable Story: Michelle tells a powerful anecdote about serving a grumpy customer, learning her struggles, and using it to instill empathy in her staff.
  “We don’t know what other people are going through… But we’re here to make them forget about that stuff for a while. That is our job.” (01:25, 102:45)

2. Early Career and Influences

• Hotel Roots and West Coast Adventure: Despite physician parents, she pursued hospitality, working at Boston Harbor Hotel, then moving to San Francisco where she met her husband, Steve. (10:08–11:19)
• Napa & Fine Dining: Both Michelle and Steve worked at high-caliber Napa Valley restaurants (French Laundry, Domaine Chandon), which shaped the vision, standards, and service focus of 555.
• On Landing at French Laundry: “Networking is hugely important… everyone says it, but when you’re young you’re like ‘yeah, whatever,’ but it is.” (13:29)

3. Launching 555: Risks and Strategies

(25:04–29:03)

• Pioneering Downtown Portland, ME: Bought their building for $320K, in a then-unpopular area, stressing the importance of controlling real estate as a fallback and value-builder.

  “If you can own the building… it’s your backup plan, your asset.” (28:11)

• Bootstrapping: Did most renovations themselves, waited to upgrade furniture, and slowly built up regular clientele.
• First Year Lessons: Started profitable and busy, but growth was slow until Steve won Food & Wine’s Best New Chef (2007).
• Keys to Hiring and Training:
  • Hired from scratch; many applicants, but not all fine-dining ready.
  • Heavy investment in ongoing training, culture, and hands-on owner presence.

4. Organic Growth, Expansion, & Operational Challenges

(53:25–58:24)

• Expansion Model:
  • Grew seat count over time by converting space (apartment→private dining, expanding bar/lounge, used buildings next door).
  • Consistently reinvested in the restaurant each year (“one big thing” – chairs, tasting menu, etc.).
• Customer-Focused Iteration:
  • Regulars were “bread and butter.” Menu innovations were introduced gradually, with education and trust.
• The Leader’s Dilemma:
  • Opening a second venue (Petite Jacqueline, 2011) introduced new layers of complexity:
    “Letting go and not being there in two places at once—that was a huge challenge for us.” (56:06)
  • Key solution: Give management partnership/ownership to ensure shared investment in culture and quality.

5. The Importance of Partnership & People

(30:16, 84:21)

• Success through Partnership:

  • Strongly advises against solo ownership, advocates for “someone you absolutely trust” (31:23)
  • “You can’t do it by yourself if you want to be the best. Give them a percentage of ownership.” (32:19)

• On Working with Her Spouse:

  • "People used to ask me, ‘How can you work with your husband?’… I think it’s special." The key: separate duties, united front, don’t keep score, communicate. (84:27)
  • “It’s like parenting—you need to be on the same page… The staff needs to see you on the same page every day.” (86:52)

6. Succession Planning and Knowing When to Pivot

(69:23–74:00)

• Exit as Evolution:
  • "If we can't do it the way we want to, we don't want to do it." (67:42)
  • Reflects on burnout, missing family time, loss of core staff, declining margins—all signs to plan an exit, not as failure, but as the next phase.
• Importance of Real Estate: Ability to rent, AirBnB, and maintain assets critical to a secure transition.
• Licensing Agreements: Consulting & licensing (555 North) as a new business model; stresses need for trust, clear expectations, and involvement when putting your brand on someone else’s property. (75:12–79:59)

7. Operational & Financial Realities

(8:14, 94:18)

• Profit Margins: 10% at peak, largely because both owners did all high-level roles themselves. (08:32–08:57)
• Hiring/Payroll Tips: Only outsource truly essential tasks if possible (e.g., payroll). (60:06–62:30)
• Leverage Technology:
  • Admits she’s not tech-oriented, but recognizes new operators need to own their systems, integrate POS, inventory, scheduling, etc.
  • “If you’re not there 24/7, you need those systems… real-time is power.” (90:57–91:18)

8. Industry Reflections & The Future

(91:23–101:46)

• Professionalism and Career Pride:
  • Advocates for improving pay, work conditions, and changing the perception of hospitality as “just a stopgap.”
• Economic Realities:
  • "The lines in the graph have to meet somewhere—owners want to do the right thing, but can’t if the money isn’t there. There is no ‘one-size-fits-all.’" (94:18, 95:26)
• Role of Legislation & Culture:
  • Skeptical that more legislation is always the answer, instead believes in market and cultural shifts leading positive change.
  • "Let it evolve… if you want to hire people, you have to keep up." (99:37)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Empathy and Hospitality

  "We're here to make [customers] forget about that stuff for a while. That is our job—not even our job… if you sign up for this, that should be what you want to do." – Michelle (01:25, 102:45)

• On Owner Real Estate

  "If you can own the building… it's your backup plan, it's your asset." – Michelle (28:11)

• On Staff Development

  “We treated our business like a school… if you leave 555 with this knowledge, you can get a job anywhere.” (41:07)

• On Partnerships

  “If you're going to open a restaurant, I hope you know how to cook... now, I hope you know technology, marketing... I don't know that many freaks of nature who can do it all.” – Eric (65:49)

• On Knowing When To Move On

  “If we can't do it well, we don't want to do it… You have to stop before you can realize your next step.” – Michelle (67:42, 72:19)

• On Industry Perception

  “We're working to rewrite the narrative… this is a career-oriented industry.” – Michelle (91:58)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Empathy & Early Lessons: 00:00–01:25, 102:06–104:53
• Motivational Quote & Mindset: 05:33–06:28
• French Laundry/Influential Years: 12:22–18:55
• Opening 555 & Real Estate Wisdom: 25:04–29:03
• Growth & Operational Change: 46:31–50:38
• Managing Multiple Concepts: 53:25–58:24
• Succession, Burnout, Exit: 69:23–74:00
• Licensing and Consulting: 75:03–79:59
• Tech Stack and Operations Today: 89:50–91:18
• Industry and Legislation: 91:23–100:56
• Final Wisdom and Legacy: 106:52–108:11

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Actionable Takeaways & Advice

For Aspiring Restaurateurs

• Invest in Your People: Teach empathy, provide ongoing training, retain by targeting development and opportunity.
• Think Long-Term with Real Estate: Ownership provides flexibility and security.
• Start Small, Grow Slowly: Don't expect to open your dream restaurant on Day One; evolve each year.
• Choose Partnerships Carefully: Co-ownership or profit-sharing with trusted people is key to scaling quality.
• Have a Succession Plan: Don't “do this forever;” plan for what’s next and protect your personal well-being.

For Owners Ready to Evolve

• Exit is Not Failure: Changing seasons, priorities, or even closing can be success if it’s intentional.
• Licensing Your Brand: Can provide new income/impact, but requires trust and clear communication.
• Seek Advice, Don’t Go Alone: There’s wisdom and support available—ask industry peers and leaders for help.

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Closing Reflections

Michelle's journey is a model for building a restaurant career with empathy, adaptability, and conscious legacy. Her story underscores the centrality of hospitality—and people-centered leadership—at every stage, the necessity of reinvention, and the importance of advancing both the profession and quality of life for owners and staff.

To connect with Michelle for consulting or general questions, email [e-mail] or Instagram @michellecorry23.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[A]

I think I try to teach my staff empathy. I think that's one thing that goes hand in hand with hospitality. I always tell this story because it's really hard, I don't think if you haven't been a server, for example, in your life, it's really hard to understand those challenges. When someone's mean to you or just doing it day in, day out, every day and taking care of other people and it's exhausting. And especially if you're working for a high end place where there's a lot of standards, there's a lot of things to remember and learn and a lot of steps. So it's hard to be that happy person all the time. I tell this story when I was early on in five to five, I was pregnant and I was seating this woman, like, you know, we always do pull out the chair for her, hand her the menu, so grumpy. And she was like, I can't remember, but she was like, why are you pulling out my chair? This is so unnecessary, you know, just very rude to me. And I'm thinking, how could she be rude to this? I'm like vastly pregnant and I was doing everything right. And I was like, this is awful. She's an awful woman, you know, And I walk away and I hear a noise and I look around and she. The chair broke under her. I was like, oh, shit, this is the worst thing that could happen to this, like, mean lady. And now our chair broke and she's gonna be so pissed off. So I come running back to her and I'm like, I have to eat crow in front of this lady. And she looks up at me and she said, well, I guess that's what I get for being so mean. She's like, my, I just came from the hospital. My son has cancer and he was in the hospital and I, you know, I mistreated you and I'm sorry. And this is what, again, she was actually laughing. And that has always stuck with me. Because we don't know what other people are going through. We don't. It doesn't necessarily give them excuse to be mean to us or to anyone. But we're here to make them forget about that stuff for a while. That is our job, or not even our job, you know, if you sign up for this, that should be what you want to do. And your co workers, so your coworker didn't polish the silver like they're supposed to. Maybe something shitty is going on in their life. Your boss, your chef, your whatever, you know. So I think that is just such a huge part of what we do. Understanding that and living that and feeling that. And if you can do that, I think it'll help you get through the day and be really good at what you do and also feel good about what you do at the end of the day.

[B]

Welcome to Restaurant unstoppable. Unstoppable. For 10 years and over 1000 episodes, I've been traveling the country chasing word of mouth leads and having in person only long form discussions with the industry's finest owners and operators. Our mission is to inspire, empower and transform the restaurant industry by bridging the gap between this generation's leaders and the next. Listen to today's guests and so many others and get one step closer. Closer to becoming unstoppable. The new year is here. It's 2025 and restaurant assistance Pro is extending their deal through February of 2025. Here's the deal. When you join Restaurant Systems Pro through February of 2025, they will handle your 2024 books at no charge. Why are they doing this? Because they know how stressful and time consuming it is to get caught up on book. Restaurant Systems Pro wants to show you the power of their all in one restaurant accounting system so you can experience the difference for yourself. Here's what Restaurant Systems Pro will take care of for you. Organization of all invoices and expenses, AI scanning of products so you know the usage, reconciliation of your accounts, tracking inventory and labor costs and providing detailed P and L reports. And the best part, you never have to deal with QuickBooks again. Ready to see how it works? Head to restaurant unstoppable.com RSP and be sure to mention this special offer. Let's make 2025 the year your restaurant thrives. P.S. this offer is only available through February of 2025. Don't miss your chance to start 2025 with stress free up to date books with excitement. Allow me to introduce to you today's guest, co founder and owner of 555 Petite, Jacqueline and 555 North Michelle Corey. Michelle, are you feeling unstoppable today?

[A]

I'm ready.

[B]

Yeah, you are. And if that name is familiar because not too long ago, I think two or three episodes ago, I sat with you and Paige and Ilma and Teresa, all women here in Portland. We're actually not in Portland. They were in Brunswick, but in Maine. The seacoast of Maine are just making an impact, making a difference, the community. All successful in your own rights. We got together, we talked, but I want to share your Specific story today, and I cannot wait to get into it. But before we dive into your story and how you got to where you are today, let's get that motivational, inspirational ball rolling with a success quote or mantra. What do you offer us?

[A]

So maybe overused, but because I have kids, I'm feeling it a lot lately is you're only as successful as the people that you surround yourself with.

[B]

Yes, I love that. Dive more into that.

[A]

I feel like you want to be around people that bring you up, that are positive, that are doing, you know, interesting things and, you know, sort of stay away from the negative, the, you know, the. The people that aren't doing positive things for you and let them help you. You know, let them give you advice, take advice and, you know, just more stay positive, you know, and positive energy.

[B]

Right. We acclimate to the people we surround ourselves with. You are the average of those you surround yourself.

[A]

And, you know, as far as my kids, you know, get inspired by people that are doing 100.

[B]

Yeah, I love that, and it's so true. And I mean, I don't have anything to add to that. I think we can just put a period there. But before we kind of go back into your story, I know we kind of introduced you a little bit in the episode with the other ladies, but just paint the picture real quick. What is your business today?

[A]

So today my husband and I have stepped back a little in the past couple years. Our kids are teenagers, so we want to spend some more time, as most people know, being in this business. We spent nights and weekends and countless hours away from our family. So we felt now is the time to. It's fleeting and they're leaving us soon, so we really wanted to embrace some time together. So now we've closed 525. We've closed petite Jacqueline, and we are doing some consulting. And then we're also in a licensing agreement with a partner at the Federal Hotel and 555 North.

[B]

Yeah. And that's a model that I would love to learn more about, and I'm sure my listeners are interested, too, like how to enter into a licensing agreement. It's not the first time I've talked about it on the. On the podcast, but I think it's an option that's not really top of mind for a lot of people. I think it should be.

[A]

It's a good ending of your sort of career option.

[B]

Absolutely, yeah. And when you do the consulting, what, like, is there an area of expertise you'd say you focus on?

[A]

Well, not really. Because there's both of us, which is great. So we, you know, run the expanse of back of the house.

[B]

Chef Steve Corey.

[A]

Chef Steve Corey. Right. Back of the house, kitchen design, restaurant design, hiring, and even the PNLs. The numbers pretty much whatever the client wants or requests, you know.

[B]

Okay, so you started. I guess we can kind of. Actually, before we go on, this is a question I'm trying to ask all my guests. It's trying to standardize this question to get people to be more confident or open about talking about numbers. What is your percent profit or what was your percent profit say in the peak of your 555 days?

[A]

I'd say, you know, it was close to. It was pretty high. In the peak, close to 10, because Steve and I were working there 24 7. So we didn't have to pay. We didn't have a general manager. We didn't have a chef. So when you can do that, obviously, that helps a lot.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and then you're watching everything and.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, you're 100% in it. So that makes it a whole lot easier to have a higher profit margin.

[B]

What would you say is a reasonable number for. In terms of prime costs and cost of labor, what percentage of cost of labor would go to a chef and a general manager?

[A]

I'm not sure I know the exact number, but, you know, you have.

[B]

Depends on a lot of variables. How many seats do you have?

[A]

So 555. Had 85 seats.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So it's pretty fairly big.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And it was. It was fine dining, which is also high ticket. Yep. So, you know, we had tasting menu.

[B]

We had 400 bottles of wine.

[A]

We had. Yeah, 400. We had, you know, private party space. So that was. It was a lot.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, I mean, I think the big point there is you're. You're doing around 10%, but you're also paying yourself on top of that. You're not taking home 10%. You're. I'm assuming you guys took a paycheck.

[A]

We did. Not very big for most of the time. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Got it. All right, so let's go back now. The. The first thing I could find on record for you was Boston university, class of 96. That I just dated.

[A]

Yeah, 95. Yeah, 95. You just date me. That's okay. Here we go.

[B]

What did you go to school for?

[A]

Hospitality management.

[B]

Okay, cool. So this is something that you. In your mind, like, this is what you wanted to do.

[A]

I wanted to do it in high school. I knew. I, you know, which is weird because my parents were both physicians, so how.

[B]

Do they feel about this?

[A]

They didn't want me to be a doctor, so they were. They were fine. Yeah.

[B]

No, honestly, I think I would take the life of a restaurant owner over a doctor today.

[A]

Yeah, I. Over. Yeah. I mean, it's fairly similar, you know, long hours, just not as much schooling, I'd say.

[B]

But yeah, Yeah. I mean, I would take less money if I had to wear a mask every day to work. Although restaurant owners had to do that for a while, too. But. So you. You knew from an early. Were you working in restaurants?

[A]

I wasn't. No. Not. Not really. I was a waitress for a little bit in high school, but not really. I really cannot explain it, but I just knew. Yeah.

[B]

Was the dream to open a restaurant?

[A]

No, I think originally I was more interested in hotels. Weirdly, I did a extended internship at the Boston Harbor Hotel. I love that. But when I graduated, I actually jumped in a car, moved to San Francisco with no job or anything and ended up waiting tables there.

[B]

Oh, cool.

[A]

At a brewery, which is where I met Steve. He was the brewer. So I took some time off, and I think that's where it veered into restaurants. And then once we got together, we had. That started to be the dream.

[B]

Okay, so how long. So from, like, 96 to, like, early 2000s, were you in California?

[A]

Yep. Yeah. And then we moved back. We actually moved back. Thought we were going to open a brewery in New Hampshire. But as we were touring the space and conceptualizing, we realized, you know, we looked around, we had another partner that was a brewer. We were like, nobody knows how to cook. Nobody knows how to run a kitchen. That seems really faulty if this is going to be profitable. So my husband actually went to culinary school, like, at the age of 30.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And we decided he was going to do that role.

[B]

So was that when you came back East?

[A]

Yep. Yeah. He went to Necky in Vermont.

[B]

Okay. I mean, I. I have to assume being in California, San FRANCISCO in the late 90s, early 2000s, you were heavily influenced by what was happening there.

[A]

Yeah. So when we moved back as well, we moved to Napa in 2000. So that was where we really got inspired to do what we did. I worked at the French Laundry, and Steve worked at Domaine Chandon at that time, had a restaurant, really fine dining restaurant. And that's where I think the real turning point of our careers. We just learned so much and were inspired and really got sort of the idea of exactly the type of place we would eventually.

[B]

So the brewery kind of faded away.

[A]

Yeah. When he became a culinary student. Yeah. We knew.

[B]

New love.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. So 96 to, like, two, like, late 90s. You were out west. Came back east. He went to culinary school. Went back west.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

And he went to school, or he went to work in kitchens. And you found your job yourself, working at the French Laundry.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

How was it getting a job at the French Laundry?

[A]

Really intimidating. It was sort of random. And I think this is a good theme for people that. Starting out in their career.

[B]

This is 2000.

[A]

This is 2000. Yeah. Networking and that kind of thing is. I mean, everyone says it, and when you're young, you're like, yeah, whatever. But it's hugely important. And we can circle back around that to the. To the licensing, but I would say that we actually lived in an apartment with a gentleman who had just got into divorce. So he was living in this apartment building with us, and his daughter's best friend was the GM of the French Laundry.

[B]

Oh, cool.

[A]

And we'd gotten close to him, and he just encouraged me to go apply and, you know, sort of like, it's just a restaurant. Like, everything else. They need workers. Go for it.

[B]

So where was the French Laundry in 2000? I know. I think it was the late 90s. They started popping up and getting a lot of the accolades. Yes.

[A]

So when I had. They. I believe they opened in 95. When I got there, they had just finished the cookbook. Like, literally just finished shooting for that. The cookbook that really sort of put them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Out there.

[B]

He won Best Chef in. Was it 96, 97, or best?

[A]

I can't remember.

[B]

I want to say Best New Chef. That's when he really started to blow up.

[A]

Probably 95 or 96. Yeah. Right, right, right. Yeah. So it was early. He was still cooking every day, so. Yeah, it was pretty early on. Yeah. And. And I just walked in the front door with my resume, and. Yeah. And it worked out.

[B]

What was the culture like there?

[A]

I loved was awesome. It was. What I loved about it was they were. It wasn't, like, stuffy, probably, because it was in Napa. They were really welcoming to the guests. They really wanted you to have a great time. They took everything seriously as far as the guests having a good time, but they didn't take themselves too seriously. It was an extremely stressful and difficult environment, I'm not gonna lie. But the general manager, Laura Cunningham, was amazing. She's sort of my inspiration.

[B]

This is the woman that got you the job.

[A]

This is the woman that hired me yeah. And she's Thomas Keller's partner as well. He was a challenge to work for, but I feel like because of that, I could sort of work anywhere and got a lot of tough skin from that. But I just learned so much. Learned so much about hospitality. No matter what Thomas Keller was like to his staff, he was absolutely so gracious to his customers at all times. And I feel like what was inspiring was that I would say the less money, the less famous people that would come in. The culinary student, the person that saved up all their pennies to come in, he was more interested and he was.

[B]

Why do you think that was?

[A]

Because I think he respected the fact that this was so important to them and not just a normal dinner. Um, he understood that, and he really cared about that and cared about their experience. Um, so that was. That was great. He was also a great businessman. You know, no matter how successful they were, he was still interested in filling seats and getting as many covers as they could. And, you know, so that was also inspiring.

[B]

Yeah. How, like, can you give me examples of what he would do to get those covers? Like, give me an example of the great businessman.

[A]

So, you know, everyone obviously takes for granted that you, you know, there was a. You couldn't get in. You had to call two months out. You know, you had to wait on, like, getting concert tickets. But what people didn't understand is that people do cancel and people do no show, and. And then you have those seats, like at a concert or at a regular restaurant going empty for the night, or like at a hotel room. Right. And you lose that. That money. So he was really had us really, because I was at one point, a reservations and a host, really on top of using that wait list and getting those covers in. And if there's confirming. Exactly. Major confirming. That was a big part of what we did. And if there was a walk in, you know, we used to say. Because people would come and they just would want to see. And I'd say, come have a drink. You never know. You know, someone might not come and you're here, so you have a backup plan. Yeah, exactly.

[B]

So you said that he. You know, you started by saying you love the culture. It wasn't stuffy, but at the same time, it was very challenging, stressful. So, like what? Like, walk that balance for me. Like, what part of it was challenging the stressful?

[A]

I mean, he. Everyone there was a perfectionist, obviously, when you get to that level. And he wasn't a screamer, wasn't a screaming culture. But there was a. There Was a culture of you had to know what you were doing. There was. Nobody suffered fools.

[B]

Yeah. High expectations. Very high expectations, very stiff standards. That's kind of my take from talking to different people. What was the mission? Was there like an overarching. Was it like you talked about how good the culture was? Was there a clear vision of where, like, they were going, what their purpose was, what their values were?

[A]

I think the vision, you know, and I'm. I was young when I was there, so, you know, I might not necessarily have gotten the full picture, and I wasn't, you know, on the top of the food chain as far as knowing. But I would say just hospitality, you know, taking care of your guests. The respect of the idea that people were spending this money, that people waited for months, that they, you know, saved up their life savings to come for this meal, and that we all respected that and wanted them. We wanted to live up to that, you know, wanted to do everything we could. If it's a product that we didn't have a beer or wine, then we get it for them. And to treat, you know, the, you know, famous guest just on the same terms as someone that we'd never heard over what, you know, everyone was the same.

[B]

Yeah. Was it Jennifer, you said you really looked up the general manager. Laura, Laura, Laura. Thank you very much. What was it about Laura that you really respected?

[A]

She just was so calm and so cool. Never got flustered. She never raised her voice. She was just the epitome of class and elegance and hospitality. You know, she was like the foil. You know, if dad was angry, you know, she was right there to pick you up, you know. Yeah, exactly.

[B]

The new year is here. It's 2025, and restaurant systems Pro is extending their deal through February of 2025. Here's the deal. When you join Restaurant Assistance Pro, through February of 2025, they will handle your 202024 books at no charge. Why are they doing this? Because they know how stressful and time consuming it is to get caught up on bookkeeping. Restaurant Systems Pro wants to show you the power of their all in one restaurant accounting system so you can experience the difference for yourself. Here's what Restaurant Systems Pro will take care of for you. Organization of all invoices and expenses. AI scanning of products so, you know, the usage, reconciliation of your accounts, tracking IM and labor costs, and providing detailed P and L reports. And the best part, you never have to deal with QuickBooks again. Ready to see how it works? Head to restaurantunstoppable.com RSP and be sure to mention this special offer. Let's make 2025 the year your restaurant thrives. P.S. this offer is only available through February of 2025. Don't miss your chance to start 2025 with stress free, up to date books.

[A]

How do they teach hospitality there or at school?

[B]

Well, there, there.

[A]

That's a good question. I think it's a great question. I don't know if it was. It was more like a osmosis, you know, you were just. The training was intensive and everyone just sort of felt this. You know what I'll say that I used to tell people after and what I tell my staff, or I used to tell my staff a lot is that it's not something you turn on and off. So if we would go out to a bar, your co worker might hold the door for me or pull out my chair or. Same in the restaurant. Let me go first or let me take the last of the napkin fold. It was permeated from everything they did. So it's not like you're just doing it for your customers. It's not a show. You're not just doing it for your customers. You're. You're living it. That's how you are.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's why I say you can't turn it on. Off.

[B]

Yeah. You know, and I think that is what culture is. I think people think culture is what you write down on paper. It's what you put on the walls.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But is it what you're doing? The culture isn't what you say you are. It's the reality of who you are. That is culture. It's what's happening in this moment right now.

[A]

And that's why you, to treat your coworker just as good as you treat your guest. Because it's, it's a, a mantra, it's a, it's a lifestyle.

[B]

So you were here, you started as a host and reservations.

[A]

Host, reservations. I was a, a back server, a food runner. I did a lot there. I did some office stuff.

[B]

Okay, was at this point, are you thinking you want to open a restaurant?

[A]

Yep. Yep.

[B]

At that point, were you looking at this as like an MBA and like how to be successful in fine dining?

[A]

Yep, it was. Let's learn from the absolute best. I mean, we knew we weren't going to open anything like that, but the idea that we had was we'd learn how the best in the world did it and carve it down from there.

[B]

What was like that and how did you want to be different from that?

[A]

Well, you know, we knew we would probably move back to the East Coast. We knew we didn't have the money or the. We didn't necessarily want to borrow a ton of money and we didn't want a ton of investors. So we knew we'd never be able to do something, you know, like that. But the service and the culture. The service was more something. We knew we probably wouldn't be able to do the food like that necessarily, but the service is where we focused.

[B]

So in terms of the food, the cost of goods.

[A]

Basically the cost of goods, the type of training. Yeah, the. The labor pool. Right, yeah.

[B]

Plus you're in Maine, which isn't quite the same market as Northern California, right?

[A]

Maine and Maine in 2002.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, it was. It was quite different than now, right?

[B]

Yeah. So 2003 is when you open.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

You're at this point, you're working in 2002. When did you leave the French Laundry?

[A]

So we left with French Laundry in the end of 2000. I want to say late 2000. Yeah. Maybe 2001.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Moved back here. Steve worked. Well, we both worked with the White Barn in.

[B]

Where's that?

[A]

That's in Kenny Bunk.

[B]

Okay. How long were you there?

[A]

I'd say about a year. At that point, we had started the process of looking for a spot and looking for a restaurant.

[B]

And from when the time you found a spot to when you opened, how much time elapsed?

[A]

Not long. But from the time we moved in to our spot, we opened in six weeks.

[B]

Oh, wow. Was it turnkey?

[A]

It was turnkey. We did pretty much. Yeah. Yeah, it was turnkey. We didn't love the stuff, but we didn't have a lot of money or time, so we. We kind of did everything ourselves. We painted. We, you know, we had friends and.

[B]

Family come paint and 2003, did you. Was it early or late 2003?

[A]

July.

[B]

So. So about a 2000. So about a year and a half from getting back here working at the White Barn.

[A]

Yes, probably like that. Yeah, I'd say. Yeah.

[B]

During this time of the White Barn, were there any other business lessons?

[A]

The White Barn was really successful. They were. They're a relay chateau as well, so they're very high end. So they had a great owner. Jonathan Cartwright was a fantastic chef. So, yeah, we learned a lot there as well. Yeah.

[B]

Was the. The plan being here just to kind of keep money coming in to pay. Pay the bills while you figured out what was next?

[A]

Pay the bills, continue to learn. We actually weren't necessarily looking in Maine for a spot. We're sort of looking between Boston and Maine, but we had found this spot on Congress street, which was at that time in 2003, was a terrible, terrible location. But it was very affordable. The building. We knew we wanted to own the building, so that. You know why? Because a backup plan, you know, if it did fail.

[B]

What an investment, huh?

[A]

Yeah, but like I said it was.

[B]

I even want to know what kind of profit you turned on if you sold the building.

[A]

We still have the building.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But from when you purchased it, do you mind saying how much you purchased it?

[A]

It was like 320.

[B]

$320,000. And I'm guessing today. And you don't have to say, if you're willing to say. I'm guessing it's. It's clearing seven figures.

[A]

I don't know. But hopefully.

[B]

Yeah, I would assume so. Unless the market changes drastically.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, we did put, you know, some money into it, but. Yeah, yeah, it was. Yeah. Yep, it was. But, you know, back then, that neighborhood was tricky.

[B]

Right. But, you know, I found that, like, the. The place to look today if you're opening a restaurant isn't in the center of it all.

[A]

You can't. I mean, you have to have an investor to avoid it. Right, right.

[B]

But if you're able to hold on for, like, if you can get right on the edge, find out where that edge is. The, like the. The. As close as you can get without being in it. But like, on the edge. If you can hold on for five years, things tend to grow out, and before you know it, you're in the center of it, I would say, where you, you know, 555 now in Congress street, you're in it.

[A]

Yeah. And I would, you know, I would highly recommend if you can own the building.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, it's just. It's your backup plan. It's your asset.

[B]

It's appreciated. I mean, it's. It's a. Like putting your money in a high yield savings account.

[A]

Right. We wouldn't have necessarily had that exit strategy. And if you're leasing, you're just walking away and there's nothing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's really smart. I know for a lot of people, that's their business model. They take 10 of everything they earn and they put it into new real estate. And that's really the model is they. They develop people, and then as they look at, like, Kristen, Paige Gould, they, you know, they just have these amazing business partners in Tom and Alex or. Sorry, Victoria. Right, right.

[A]

Victoria.

[B]

Thank you, and you know, when you, when you develop a name and reputation, you can go and you can buy new property and you can create opportunity for other people.

[A]

Right. And then you don't have to run it.

[B]

Yeah, but you spent all this time and energy developing these people, you know, that they're going to go do their own thing.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Why not be a part of it? And then now you have two sources of income or three sources of income, and if you're putting 10 profit away to invest in new assets, it starts compounding. I think it's a great business model. So what were the, the biggest challenges for you in the year and a half trying to find this location?

[A]

I mean, we really didn't know what we were doing, you know, as far as real estate and you know, just overwhelmed by every, you know, licensing and we had no one to really help us that had done it before at that point, so totally blind. You know, thankfully we had each other, which, which was nice. And, and I, you know, I try to think about, it's a long time ago and I don't know how we had the courage to do it or the confidence, but somehow, somehow we did. I think, you know, my husband was working a ton at the White Barn in the summer in Kenny Bug Port is stupid hours. And I think we looked at each other and said, if we're gonna work this hard, we should do it for ourselves. And that was like the, the push that we needed.

[B]

That's the big reason why. And a lot of people push back on this. I always say that if you're looking to scale or grow or be number one in the restaurant industry, I don't think you can do it alone. Like, I, I, I think you could do it alone in the past, but I think the industry is getting more and more competitive. I don't think you can do it alone. I, I, I really think that you, you need, well, like if you're gonna do it, you got to do it for yourself, right? So if you want to attract on those people like the Michelle's and Steve's of the world, like they're gonna want to do it for themselves. Look at Tom and Victoria, right? You know, like if you want to work with the best, you need to offer more than an income.

[A]

Well, the best leave, you know. Right. Because they're the best. You know, they might not open restaurants, but they'll do something. All the, all the best people we've ever had have left and done great things, which is fabulous, you know, and we've helped and Encouraged and super excited for them. But, yeah, they don't stick around.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Forever.

[B]

So, I mean, you can do it. You can own a restaurant by yourself, but if you really want to be the best, I don't know another way. Today it seems like it's going in that direction of, like, partnerships and shared equity and getting people to buy in.

[A]

Also, if you're, you know, by yourself, like when Steve and I did it, and we. What I tell people is if you don't know someone that cooks, you're going to have a really hard time. You're just going to hire a chef. Then you're dependent on the Internet of, indeed, that you've never met before, and you're dependent on everything. Or vice versa. If you're a chef, you're just gonna, what, go to the. I almost said paper. Talk about dating myself. But you're gonna go to, you know, indeed. And find a random GM and hope for the best. You know, I mean, I. You need, if it's not a husband and wife, someone that you absolutely trust, that you, like you said, and I say, have a partnership, give them a percentage of ownership or go in it together because you. You can't do. Or, you know, sometimes there's two chefs or two front of the house people opening, and, like, you need that piece of someone that you trust implicitly and that has ownership.

[B]

I once interviewed a couple husband and wife, and they were like, we would never have partners. I'm like, what do you guys call you?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, investors is a different story. We were really adamant about never having investors. We've never had an investor because you are going to work your 100 hours a week with your blood, sweat and tears, and then you're going to have to handover.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, 50 of your profit, 70, whatever, 30, whatever. It's a. It's. It's a lot, you know, I mean, I know sometimes you can't do it without. And we were fortunate, but it is something to think about. Like, if you can do with less nice plates to start with.

[B]

Right.

[A]

If you can do with less nice chairs. Don't get all the things, but don't get, you know, you'll get there.

[B]

I think people have this dream, this vision of what they want, like their dream restaurant, and they go for it right away, and they don't realize that you have to build up to it. That can be where you're going.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

But where can you start? Yeah, we start there.

[A]

These chairs that we hated. We used all the cutlery, all the plates. And again, you know, I'm. I'm coming from the French Laundry. I hated it. But, you know, we eventually replaced everything. But, you know, I mean, so you're.

[B]

Oh, sorry, go ahead.

[A]

No, it just. It was a process, but we eventually got there. But, you know, we got the money first instead of the other way around.

[B]

Yeah. One more question about before you opened, did you let it be known when you were hired at the White Horse or the White White Barn that your intention was to leave?

[A]

No, because at that point, we didn't necessarily know we were. We were going that quickly. But I think once we started thinking about it, we had a pretty honest conversation with the chef and the owner. The thing is, I don't think people. We were young. I was only 30. I don't think people think. Thought took us very seriously. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're gonna open your own restaurant. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, are you gonna still work with us? Are you part time? You know, I. And I certainly don't think they thought it would be that caliber of a restaurant, so.

[B]

Yeah, got it. Okay. So it's 2003. What was it? July? You said July.

[A]

We opened, we moved into the building end of May.

[B]

$320,000 is what you needed to. That's what you purchased the building for. Did you need money to get open?

[A]

Yeah, but we didn't have a lot.

[B]

Yeah. What were the, you know, what was the first year like, first week like the first month like.

[A]

Gosh, it's kind of a blur, to be honest. I know art like Steve, only 22 years and I'm old. Steve's family surprise. A bunch of our family surprised us. You know, we didn't have like a. We didn't have a friends and family because we didn't really know anyone. We had. We had an apartment that. One of the reasons we bought the building is because we had an apartment above, so we were staying there. We didn't have a kitchen. It was just like a one room. So we spent like 24, 7 in the restaurant. We had to cook. We had all our meals there. And it was, you know, I want to say it was busy, busy, but it was busier, I think, than we thought.

[B]

So it was profitable out of the gate?

[A]

Pretty much, yeah. And then pretty quickly, I think 2007, Steve got best new chef, Food and wine. So that. Then it went crazy.

[B]

It took four years to get there.

[A]

It did take four years to get there. It seemed like it was a lot faster, but. Yeah, yeah, but it was pretty. It was getting Pretty busy before that.

[B]

I mean, anything that you learned the hard way in the first four years.

[A]

Oh, God, there's probably so much.

[B]

What was the biggest challenge for you personally?

[A]

The biggest challenge was a few things. One being, like, the hiring and the training. It was a lot different than. It was a lot easier to hire. There was a lot more people looking for work, and we had, like, a flood of people. We had to do these, like, informational days where we'd say from like 12 to 4 come in, and we had, like, hundreds of people come in. I know the good old days, it was really different. And it was. I think we put an ad in the paper and we had four cell phones. I know. And then we had. We only had one phone line. We didn't have our own phone line. So anytime the phone would ring, you know, it could be my mom or it could be someone looking for a job or, you know, whatever. So. But I would say the type of restaurant we wanted, we had a lot of great applicants, but we also had people that had never really heard of fine dining of any sort.

[B]

So right in the market.

[A]

That was sort of challenging. Training from, like, the ground up. It was challenging to, you know, I don't want to say just to do the food we wanted. You know, we had to be patient and gradually introduce people to some different things. It was still main. We had to realize, you know, let them dictate how the menu went.

[B]

How did you find that balance of doing what you wanted to do, but also making it approachable.

[A]

We let the customers dictate, you know, what they liked, what they wanted. We went really slowly. We'd slowly introduce things. We did really a lot of training for the staff so that they could feel comfortable explaining it or, you know, getting them to try it. And I think eventually we had a lot of repeats, a lot of regulars. That was our big thing, was we weren't going to survive in Maine if we didn't have regular customers in the winter. So that was our focus, making those happy, remembering what they like, remember where they like to sit, remembering their names, remembering what they like to drink. You know, those are the people. That was our bread and butter and people like that. So they started trusting us. So if Steve put something even a little out of the ordinary on the menu, they trusted him. So they would try it.

[B]

In terms. I mean, I feel like today there are tools that the modern operator has that you weren't privy to in 2000, from 2003 to 2007. Right. You know, customer relationship management, reservations Opentable Resi.

[A]

No, we did everything on paper. I had a little reservation book with a chart. And you had to write all the turns. We did. We wrote everything down. The tickets, There was no positive. The tickets were handwritten, hand added up. At the end of the night, I had to add everything out, count all the money. Yeah, it was. I mean. Yeah, it's mind blowing.

[B]

Well, what I'm really curious about is in terms of, like, you know, regulars. Right. They say 80% of your profit comes from 20% of your guests. So, like, it's not about getting new people in. It's about making sure the old people come back. That's really where your money is. How did you. Are you just good with names? Did you have a system for training? Like, for memorizing names? Training your staff on names?

[A]

Weirdly, I don't have a great memory. I don't remember a lot of stuff, but I can still remember the bottle of wine. Like, we ran into a couple that used to be 555 regulars, you know, 20 years ago. I could still remember their wine. They like to drink weird. I don't know why, but I was there every night. So, yeah, I remembered. I could remember everything. And then, you know, eventually we did get open table, so we took copious notes. And when did that happen?

[B]

By 2008?

[A]

10, probably 7. I think we needed it by then because things were getting crazy.

[B]

Yeah. Plus, you can't be there all the time. Right. You need systems in place to replace your ability to.

[A]

I was still there all the time, but. Yes, right. Eventually, yeah.

[B]

What about training? You said that there was a lot of training. What does a lot of training look like?

[A]

That's a good question. Because we didn't. Before we opened, we didn't have a ton of money, so we didn't have, like, weeks to bring people in and train them. It just. I think there was high expectation of our staff to work hard, to do a little, you know, little homework, and they were really inspired to do it. We were so lucky.

[B]

How did you inspire them to do it?

[A]

I don't know. We had such a great staff. We had such a great opening. I still talk to most of them. We had a great opening staff for years. They were young. They were excited about what we were doing, I think because it was different. I'm sure they made good money, so that doesn't hurt. I think we were there all the time, so I think that, you know, doing. I was cleaning toilets.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, whatever. And I think they were learning. I think a big part of 555's success in our staff is that we treated it almost like a school. It was a learning opportunity. People were learning about fine dining, learning about food, learning about wine. And we treated it as such, like, not that this is your duty, but this is cool. And if you leave 5D5 with this knowledge, you can get a job anywhere in the world.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, so I think that. And I sort of like a geek about that stuff. Like, this is why the fork goes here. Isn't this fascinating?

[B]

And why does the fork go there?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, because it's all about ease of. Of where you, you know, the. That this has to go at, you know, five o', clock. Because that's where you.

[B]

Ergonomics. Dining.

[A]

Ergonomics is fine dining is ergonomics. Like, I'm geeking out, but so I think, you know, I was really big into the. The reason why we're not just doing this to make your life difficult. There is a reason why the coffee cup has to go.

[B]

The why.

[A]

The why.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that analogy of looking at your business like a university is at the core of one of the things I want to help more restaurant owners understand that you are in the business of developing people. And if you become really good at developing, developing people, and if you can attract onto yourself the people who love this and are passionate about this, are talented for this, that's where the money starts to come in. Because now you're just. You're just literally producing business partners.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, you're producing opportunity for others and you're. You're using your business to groom and grow them and that. And then that's how you grow. But you're only as good. How do we start today's conversation? Only as good as the people you surround yourself with, or. I don't know that that's exactly what you said, but.

[A]

Well, yeah, and I think, you know, people are excited about this. You know, I mean, if you're not excited about learning where the coffee cup goes, then you'll filter out eventually, because this won't be interesting to you. Because it isn't just about the money.

[B]

How often were you training?

[A]

I mean, we had great turnover for. For years. People stayed again. They made good money, they were learning, I think. But for us, training was like. We. Every day, like, we had an upright meeting and we usually had, like, a new subject that we'd focus on or something that went wrong in the night that I would take my notes and focus on. It was a Pretty long. Upfront, Steve talked a lot about the food. It was really important to him that they understood everything and got excited about it. Details. We were extremely detail oriented. And again, if that was boring to you or annoying, you probably wouldn't stay because it was a very detail oriented place. So, you know, little things about how you hand a menu and, you know, serving the women first and, and it was repetitive because it has to be.

[B]

You know, plus, you also have new people.

[A]

You have new people, different nights. Yeah, Yeah.

[B]

I think, you know, there should be a daily huddle. Right. And a weekly meeting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think if you're not doing that, bare minimum, the weekly meeting should be, you know, like, where are we this week? Where are we trying to be next week? You know, like, where are our numbers this week compared to last week, compared to this time last year? Right. And, like constantly the, the KPIs and saying, where are we now versus where we want to be and where we are now, where we were. Right. How can, what can we do different to get there?

[A]

Yeah. And, you know, the big upfront, too. It was collaborative because I think if you do a lot of upfront and the chef is just reading off the specials and allergens and, and you see people, you see them drift off and, you know, it was, you know, you're quizzing to make sure everyone understands. But, you know, Steve's big thing was, I want to hear. Everyone has to tell me one bad thing they learned about the food last night. I don't want to hear the good stuff. Whatever. I want to hear the bad stuff or what was left on the plate. What are you scraping off the plate every night? What are people not eating? You know, so it was, it was very interactive. You'd get frustrated if you didn't. You have to say something at this meeting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Good, bad or ugly?

[B]

I love that. You're also reminding me of Hertz Schultze, the CEO of the Ritz Carlton. And he would. Every day their team would do a, A, a daily meeting and they would cover their 21 standards of excellence. And every day they would pick one element of those 21 and they would talk about when they saw it, and they would give an example of somebody living that, that standard.

[A]

I think I remember reading that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And I had him on the show. We went over all the different standards. It was really cool. And then when they get to the 21st one, the next day they go back to one. And that's a, that's an example of making, like, weaving Your values, your standards into your culture and creating language and rituals around it to reinforce it. And that's what you were doing with your. Your service standards. And like, it's like you have this list of things that. These are our standards. We find time to talk about it every day.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And you have to do that in order to embed your culture into. To make it not what's on paper, but what happens every day.

[A]

Right. Yeah.

[B]

I just wanted to point out that that's really well done. So along your continued growth, points of evolution, you know, like, if our job is to transform our listeners, what was the transformation you were going through?

[A]

So we tried really hard every year to do one big thing to the restaurant put back in. You know, it might be as simple as new chairs for the whole restaurant, which sounds silly, but we had 85 seats plus 30 fine dining. So that's a lot of money. So. And a big commitment of time and research. And so you do that one year or one year we added. We added a tasting menu on, then we added the. We added. So we eventually moved out of the apartment and eventually we made that into a private dining room. So that was that year's big thing. So every year we tried to have a big, big idea, you know, whether it was a financial big idea or a conceptual big idea.

[B]

Yeah. I talked to Jeff Benjamin, I'm trying to remember his business partner, Vetory. He was like, chef Vetri's like, right.

[A]

Oh, sure, sure, sure.

[B]

And he wrote his book, the Front of House. And he talks about every five years, like, I can't remember the term, but like, you have to refresh it. Yeah, you have to. They would put money aside, a percentage of income that would just go to this bank account. Maybe it was a high yield savings account.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then every five years they would cash out and they would basically like, shake things up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it sounds like. So I guess what I'm curious about with you, like, did you allocate cash flow to make sure that there was money there for it? Or how did you make sure you do that?

[A]

I mean, we always kept money. We were, you know, nervous people. So we were big savers. So I guess, you know, you'd only do, you know, you'd think of some ideas, but then you'd hash them out to see if you could afford them. You know, some years you could. Some years. So you say, well, that we can't afford that this year, so next year that'll be our thing. And then maybe we would try to save, but we really didn't think of the idea. It wasn't like we thought of it all year. We sort of waited to the end of the year and thought of, you know, we might have some ideas. But, you know, one year we completely took away the white tablecloths on the first floor and got made all these custom tables, so we didn't use tablecloths anymore, which actually saved us money in the long run. So they weren't always costly ideas. Sometimes they would actually save us money.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, or make us money or whatever.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I'm thinking of Peter Lazar, author of Restaurant Strong. In that book, he talks about juxtaposition or. No, sorry, the. He did talk about that, but the, The. The law of diminishing returns. And the only way you can combat that, like, you're gonna. People are going to get tired of you.

[A]

Yeah. You plateau.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. The only way to compete. Compete with that is to juxtapose. Juxtaposize. What? Can you help me?

[A]

I don't know. I don't know.

[B]

You know what I'm trying to say? Juxtaposition.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Against your Right. And the only way to do that is to like, literally, like, maybe it's new color or maybe it's a new floor plan or like, maybe that's too much for some people, but like, maybe it's new chairs. You know, maybe it's. It's a new menu that is like, you know, I think you look at Alinea, they. They started next and the whole idea of that concept is to change and stay fresh.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I think there's definitely something there as you. I mean, one thing I. I can't help but to be curious about along that. That line of the, you know, law of diminishing returns. Was there a period. Because you gotta think about your market too. When you came to Portland, there were you and a handful of other people competition.

[A]

I mean, they're like very few. Yeah, you had the Grill and 4th Street.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So now. Yeah, I mean, Portsmouth. Portsmouth, Portland, Maine is a. Considered it a dining destination. There's so much good stuff happening there. As the, the market around you evolved to think like, what was that like?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, we. So we combated that in several ways. One was when we added the tasting menu, you know, that.

[B]

When was that?

[A]

Oh, God, I don't know. I don't know.

[B]

The year maybe you closed in 2019. Was it towards 2019?

[A]

No, it was 2010. It was fairly early on, but. So that would increase the check Average and then also get people to come back one more night. We actually, in 2000, in. Oh my God, all these dates. Maybe 2010, 2011. We actually rented the. Maybe before that, 2010, our neighbor, because our building abuts another building, rented us. He had a store and he rented us the space of his store, his retail store. So we bussed it open and opened a bar area. So then we had a waiting area and a bar, which we'd never had, but a big bar, like an 8-10-Z bar. So we did that. That was super exciting that that allowed us more income, better sales. And then we were actually able to buy that building, which was great. And then this is a perfect example. We had like a lounge area in the bar with a couch and seating and stuff. And so we loved it because it gave people that were waiting room to wait and, and relax. And it looked nice. But we were sort of contemplating the numbers and eventually realized that putting three tables there was way better for the bottom line. So things like that. So we added three tables and then we added a separate bar menu. And then our biggest thing, I think that helped us stay alive for longer because, you know, I think revenues were flattening out. And then we were working a little less at the very end. So, you know, our bottom line was going down. We had to hire a chef for the first time because our nanny at that time left. She got pregnant and left. So we made the decision where my husband. Because of our hours, you can't just hire another nanny because they're working, you know, noon to 10, which is very weird hours for people on weekends. So he decided to step back and sort of be a little bit of a stay home dad part of the time. So, you know, like I said, that really ate into the bottom line and so will we. That's when we opened the third floor dining room. And that's was one of the best decisions we ever made because we were enabled now to bring that profit back up.

[B]

And Was this all 555?

[A]

This was all 555.

[B]

So you went from 80 seats to.

[A]

So we had another 30 sit down, but we could do 50 standing.

[B]

Okay, so did you, when you opened, how many seats did you start with?

[A]

So when we opened, we probably started with 50 something. Right. We added 30 and then we added another bar. Yeah.

[B]

And standing room.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you could really increase that cash flow. And then also you mentioned the. The prefixed.

[A]

Yeah, that was super helpful.

[B]

Were you doing prefix and a la carte at the same time?

[A]

And bar menu yeah.

[B]

So all out of the same kitchen.

[A]

Yeah. The smallest kitchen you've probably ever scene.

[B]

So if Steve was sitting here, what would he say?

[A]

What would he say?

[B]

Challenges the kitchen. Yeah.

[A]

The kitchen was so small, the dish pit was in a different room entirely across the way that was tiny. And we had a unfinished basement where we had to store. And it was. And our walk in was so small. My new chef, who stayed with us for maybe four to five years, used to call it the. He's like, it's not a walk in.

[B]

It's.

[A]

It's like a reach in. I mean, it. It was so small. It was. I can't believe we did what we did out of that kitchen. Yeah.

[B]

When did you open your second concepts?

[A]

2011.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And did you own this building as well?

[A]

No, no, that was our lease. I swore we'd never lease. And what changed? Just timing. You know, we really wanted to open. You know, we were one of those crazy people that we realized if we step back a little more, but we had another restaurant that would make us more money and we could afford to hire more people, and it would be great. On paper, it's great.

[B]

I think there's a reason why, you know, I'm relaunching Restaurant Unstoppable Network. And this time around, I'm basically segmenting the community from 0 to 1, meaning you're in the process of opening your restaurant 1 to 3, because you can basically get by as many. In my opinion, you can do three the way that you can do one, but if you're looking in, doing one to two is still hard. But if you can do three, that's when you're like, what the hell did I do? You're really going to start changing the way you do business in that time to go from 4 to 10. And then when you go to. When you get to that point, like, then you got to start thinking, we got to build our C suite. We have to re. That's a whole different business model. So. So the point I'm trying to make like, that you think, oh, all we need to do to make more money is open another restaurant. Right. What were the challenges associated with that.

[A]

For us letting go? Because at that point, we were there 20, you know, all opening, we were there, and it was just dinner service, so we could be there watching everything, in charge of all the training, in charge of every detail. I super type A, you know, so if you have two, you obviously can't be in two places at one time. So that was Huge challenge for us.

[B]

Bring me to that struggle. The challenge. How, how did you wrestle with that struggle? Like, how did you evolve during that time?

[A]

That's a good question. Probably better to ask the employees. Probably not very well. Right. I think we had it. We did have a general manager at 5T5 who then became the. You know, we actually gave her some partnership. It was like we were talking about. That's how we did it. Because we were like, if we're not going to be there, we need someone that has skin in the game that's going to be there. It's really like exactly what you were saying. It's the only way to do it. Right. So we gave her percentage of ownership and, you know, sort of entrusted a lot with her. And she had a lot of. She'd been with us for a long time and had a lot of our core values, you know, hard working. And so I. We put a lot of trust in her, which I'm sure she'd say at the beginning. I don't know if we second guessed her per se, but you know, we expect, we expect a lot of humongous communicators. Even, you know, if you work for me, even as a server in a kitchen, they're like, oh my God, these guys over communicate. I think that's a huge key in customer satisfaction between kitchen and servers. So I think, you know, we asked for recaps every night when we're not there. And so I, I probably called her, you know, like 30 times a day. And I'm sure she thought I was crazy. Although she knew me by now, but, you know, so that was. And at that time too, at that time I started having babies. So that took me out of the game.

[B]

Other full time job.

[A]

Even more so. Yeah, I think it's just communicating, checking in a lot. Probably over.

[B]

Was there a tipping point?

[A]

No. Thanks. So we had problems with our landlord at the. We actually. What's that?

[B]

Where you least.

[A]

Where we lease? Yeah, we actually moved tjack it actually moved spots, believe it or not. So the first landlord was a real struggle. The building was such a shit show, excuse my French. It was a mess. So that was probably our biggest struggle. And after our five year lease were up, we decided to move, which was a big decision because that's a financial. You know. And then. Are people gonna follow us? You know, that was a really hard decision.

[B]

When did that move happen? 2017.

[A]

That moved happened? No, before that. I want to say 2015 maybe.

[B]

Okay. Did you open 2011 originally?

[A]

Yes. Is that what I said 2016. Yeah, right, 16. Yeah. So five years after. Right, right, right. So we went and then, you know, we had to find a new space and we lost some of our staff through that. And that was a big challenge. And then the space, which I said I would never do, was raw. It wasn't turnkey, so that we put a ton of money. Had to put a ton of money into it.

[B]

With petite. The second location was also leased.

[A]

It was, yeah. Yeah.

[B]

During this time, hindsight being 20 20, your continued growth in the restaurant industry, now as a consultant and being on. On the board of Hospitality Maine.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

What advice would you give yourself, knowing what you know now?

[A]

I probably say ask for more help from industry leaders because there's a lot out there that will be happy to help you.

[B]

They love it and they went through it.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

And they know. I think there was a period in the industry where the command and control days, the, the, the, the mindset of scarcity days where people held knowledge close to their chest because of. Out of fear. But I think we're moving away from that.

[A]

Oh, yeah. I mean, everyone on the board and, you know, members of Hospitality Maine, they're happy to share their mistakes or contacts or, you know, whatever can help. Yeah, So I probably do that. But, you know, you just don't have time when you're in it. That's a big thing. I think people don't understand when you are the GM and you are the accountant and the bookkeeper and I mean, and I'm sure, Paige, like back in the day, I didn't outsource anything except for payroll. I always outsource pay, but everything else I did myself. Like, you are working all the time and you don't have time to go out for coffee or even to pick up the phone and like, you are in it. And the biggest challenge.

[B]

Power lunches.

[A]

Yeah. You never had time for that. I mean, one of the biggest challenges for us. I remember Tipping Point early on, my biggest. Because we knew what we were doing day to day stuff that wasn't hard when you're in it. We knew how to do hospitality, we knew how to cook food and run food. And that was never challenging. We didn't have a problem working hard. It was our baby. That was fine. The biggest challenge was like the stuff we didn't know how to do, the bookkeeping and the accounting. We had got some bad advice from accountant that, you know, in April when our taxes were due, I remember on our day off, because we were open six days a week on the seventh day, we usually caught up on all our, like, so we never had a day off. But at. But just remember during tax season, like losing my shit because I just didn't know what I was doing. And that finally was like, you don't have time.

[B]

Did you get a CPA eventually?

[A]

Yeah, we had a cpa. He kind of gave us some bad advice and then we eventually asked around, asked for advice, got a great guy who really helped us. But you know, all that stuff really, eventually there's.

[B]

If you're raising $500,000 to open a restaurant, raise $550,000 to get a lawyer and a CPA.

[A]

Yeah, you need and people that you can like, trust. We have such fabulous people that have become friends that like, really believed in us, that really helped us, that came out to eat, you know, like, we're supporting, you know, rooting for us. So we like, they have our backs and they have our backs 20 years later.

[B]

And in your defense too, I think this period there was a lot less resources, a lot less.

[A]

I mean, you couldn't just Google right questions.

[B]

You had, you know, podcasts.

[A]

There weren't podcasts. There weren't anything. I was really. It was really a long time ago.

[B]

Because I couldn't find a restaurant podcast, you know, and I think the other thing too, like, there's like the technology today too. Like I think of. I think anybody opening a restaurant should go with an enterprise solution today. Personally, I think when I say enterprise solution, I'm talking about like a restaurant systems pro or a restaurant 365. Because with the amount, like we are living in a world where we're going to have to learn to depend more on technology to be able to do more with less. And if you can have a fully integrated system that does, you know, that's your general ledger that you can do. Costing, purchasing, price, like labor management, budgeting, cash flow analysis, real versus theoretical, you know, cash flow. Like. Like if you have all this stuff and it's integrated in the back end and you have that data being chugged out and, and all you do is follow the steps. Like there's video tutorials on. Like, here is how you use this tool and you have the discipline to, to sit down and enter the data. And it's. Get a lot of the data gets pushed today with the POS too. So like, we're just getting to this point where like, you can't. You have to be so diligent and disciplined with the numbers and the data entry, like to stay competitive. Like, you can't do it on your own. The leverage of the technology.

[A]

This is where I, like, this is where I'm glad I'm. Because I don't have that patience or that knowledge, you know, like, people like Paige Golder, she's fantastic at that stuff, and she sort of helped. I'm. I am. I'm an older, like, older generation. Like, I. I don't have the patience to sit down and learn. I don't want to, you know, And I. I know that is, like you said, you know, and that the people that are successful are the ones that can. That will sit down and learn all the, you know, you can get the toast and the open table, but if you don't own it, you're missing out on big, big pieces that could help you.

[B]

Right. Well, it's kind of like the idea of, you know, if you're gonna open a restaurant, I hope you know how to cook. Right. Because if for whatever reason, that chef walks out, you're screwed. But now I think you can say the same thing. If you're going to open a restaurant, I hope you know how to cook. I hope you know how to have, you know, deliver a great service. I hope you know wine. I hope you know technology.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And systems and processes. I hope, you know, marketing, you know, and like, all those things are becoming more and more relevant in today's age to stay top of mind that, like, I've seen people, business owners, restaurateurs, giving equity and making their marketing person a part, like a partner, because it's that important today. And I think there's so many hats you have to wear today that, like, that's one of the reasons why I say you have to have a partner.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I don't know that many freaks of nature that can be good at all those things. Paige Gould. Okay. Other than her.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So in terms of this continued evolution, 2019, what's going on?

[A]

So, you know, sort of like you said, we. The profits were plateauing. You know, we had such a fantastic general manager, husband, wife, team, general manager and chef. And they'd been with us for four or five years, and they wanted to go open their own place. So happy for them. But I think it hit us, the idea that we would have to bring someone new in, not just retrain them, but I think going back to what we said, like, reteaching them the culture. Those people had been with us for, you know, years and years, and they were 100% in with the culture, and they were like family and like, the Idea. Not only do I not want to reteach that from scratch, but can I? You know? And we were taking a step back. Our kids were in sports, you know, we were missing weekend games and just was like unsustainable to be there all the time. And 555, it was such a beast. It was so big. It had the bar and the bar menu, the private dining, the tasting menu, 85 seats and it was fine dining. And you needed an owner or some sort of ownership there. And if I, if I couldn't be there or someone that I trusted 100%, then it wasn't going to be what it was. And we decided that we didn't want it to just be.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So if it wasn't going to be fabulous, it needed to stop being.

[B]

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[A]

I was gonna say. I was just gonna say it's so funny you said that because I was gonna say I think it's a great topic to bring up because I don't think a lot of them have a succession plan. And you know, Paige and I talk about a lot. You know, she's so smart. She was like, you know, like us, like we love it and we loved what we did, but by no means did we mean to, to go to our graves or miss out on our kids lives or, you know. So the idea of purchasing the property was a big part of the succession plan. And I think, I don't know, like we didn't go into it thinking we'd end it. And even that year as 2019 started, and I don't think it was a conscious thing like we were going to close. I, it was almost sort of sudden, like, I don't want to say as fatalistic as what's the point? But it was definitely, if we can't do it, well, we don't want to do it. It's just too fine dining. And I think I've said this before as a, as a mom, as a woman. It got to a point where I was feeling guilty 100% of the times. If I'm home with my kids, I'm feeling guilty. I'm not with my restaurant kids or my customers. If I'm at work, I'm feeling 100% guilty that I'm not home with my kids. It was like 100% guilt all the time. So yeah, I think it just was gradually and you know, we were lucky that we had each other as partners. It's a nice thing as a husband, wife, team. Like, you know, you start discussing it and you can talk about it as a lifestyle change. And I say this to like, I was, I'm sure a lot of people will say I was a very strict boss. I don't think by any means I mistreated people. But this was a passion and we wanted it to be the best. So we were very serious about what we did. And that was becoming exhausting being the sort of the bad guy and the, you know, the constant training and the constant detail oriented and the, the constant upfronts and the, you know, the repeating.

[B]

And the hiring market wasn't quite the same either. Wasn't the same scoop up the cream of the crop like you used to.

[A]

Yeah. You know, and, and again the, the money was less and less. So it's like, well, what exactly is the point? Yeah, so, so I think that, you know, we gradually were like, yeah, okay, it was super scary. I think anyone considering it would feel the same thing, like this is what you did for your entire life. But I think the other thing I tell a lot of younger people is you have to stop before you can realize what's your next step. Because if you're in it and you're working Even if you're working 1560 hours instead of 100 hours, there's no time to think of what is the next step.

[B]

All of your mental bandwidth goes to doing the thing. You got to slow down to speed up.

[A]

Right. So. But it was super scary, very hard, because you're putting. We have always taken it extraordinarily seriously that we are the livelihood for people. So putting people out of jobs was very scary. And that was a hard decision as well. But, yeah, you know, you worry about people judging you.

[B]

Plenty of opportunity for hiring in the restaurant industry.

[A]

Yeah, we would help anyone. I know I'm 100% sure I could get everyone a job. We gave everyone a ton of notice and, you know, but yeah, you were. You were about people judging you. Like, oh, you failed. Wasn't necessarily about failing it. Just.

[B]

Just.

[A]

But, you know, all those things. Right.

[B]

So you pivoted. Your. Your new source of income was your. You're. I'm assuming you found somebody to take over this. The business. So you have tenants.

[A]

Yes. So what? So we have the. The two buildings. We found a tenant, and then we also. We Airbnb. There was four apartments above, so we Airbnb those, which is great income. And. And then we still had petite Jacqueline at the time. So. So. And, you know, we had put some money away and so still felt fine, although it was scary, but still felt fine.

[B]

Yeah. So again, good foresight on purchasing the building.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

Yeah. And then you do the consulting.

[A]

Yeah. And then this sort of fell in our lapse. Right. Right around the same time. And back to what I said I would circle back to networking. Gerard Kalagian, who's the owner here, I met him years and years ago at the Hospitality Main Members, and he approached me at one Hospitality Main event, actually, and said, we have this hotel. He used to be the general manager of the Portland Harbor Hotel, and he is. Was doing his own venture, but he had a large restaurant. He said he knew everything about hotels, but not very much about restaurants, and then was looking for someone to help him with that. So we had a couple meetings and talked about what that would look like. And, you know, just the space was beautiful. We discussed whether we were going. We weren't necessarily immediately going to use 5T5 name, but we discussed it and decided that. That that would probably be the way to go. So.

[B]

So I guess, you know, this is a good option for a lot of people who've developed a brand.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You see a lot of celebrity chefs do this, right? Where they are. They're the Celebrity, they have a following. They use their likeness, their intellectual property, their recipes, their systems, and they, they license out to hotels all the time. You see this, you have a local brand and reputation. I hope Chef Steve doesn't mind me saying that he's not a celebrity chef, but you have a very well respected, well regarded brand here in Maine.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So the idea is you're going to pull from that, that reputation that following your, your regulars who probably were like, our favorite place is gone. Right. And you can use that, you can leverage that to, to inject life into a new space when you go into these licensing agreements. Have you done this before?

[A]

No, this is our first.

[B]

So how did you know what to do? Did you seek outside counsel?

[A]

Yeah, we have a lawyer. We trusted. We did some research. But no, we kind of jumped in because we trusted Gerard. We sort of jumped in and I could see it, I could see it not working if you didn't do it with the right person. So although it's fantastic arrangement, especially for your like, next phase, I would also warn you to make sure you know the person well.

[B]

Yeah, what, what works about this. You know the person well. There's a relationship there, there's trust. What else?

[A]

So, you know, if you are going to do it with someone, you, you need to establish how involved you are going to be and how involved they are going to be and if they are going to be involved. And Gerard is very involved, which is great. And we see, thankfully, we are pretty much of the same opinions and the same culture and the same mindset, which is great. If someone's going to be very involved and you're not, that could be really tricky, especially if you use your name. So for us, we are involved a lot because it's our name, which is, you know, we could say whatever, you know, but because it's our legacy, so to speak, it's still really important that everything goes really well for us. So, you know, I guess those are things to consider if you want to use your name.

[B]

So it's like any kind of partnership agreement where you're basically spelling out this is. These are my responsibilities.

[A]

I would spell out for us. I don't mind if sometimes we have to work harder. That's who we are. He's not necessarily asking us to, but that is what we do.

[B]

How is it spelled out? What are you responsible for?

[A]

It's pretty vague. It's pretty vague, which is fine. You know, right now, Steve, sort of depending on the chef involved. We have a young chef right now who's Fantastic. Super smart guy. But Steve is doing all the menu development right now. If we had a chef that happened to be a little older and a little more experienced, he might not do as much. But this works really well right now. And we're hoping he grows and learns and takes over a little more each time, but this works fine, you know. And again, yeah, like right now we're actually searching for a general manager. So I'll step in a little more and when we hire that general manager, I'll probably like, I might come up here and stay at the hotel for some time and help. And none of that was spelled out either way. So, I mean, there might be some weeks where things are going great and we meet once a week and things are fine. And then there's other times that we do a little more. That works totally fine for us. But I would say if you didn't know that person well, you might want to spell that out.

[B]

What does your life today look like compared to what it looked like in 2017 and 18?

[A]

I mean, for some reason I thought I'd have more time. I don't know what's going on. No, I'm kidding. It's obviously a lot less busy. I do a lot here because I have time, you know, a lot of emails back and forth with the owner, with the managers. We have a, we come up here once a week. To me, I might work some nights just to see how things are going. We're consulting for a few other places. Light, but you know, those are emails and phone calls. My husband manages the Airbnbs. I manage the tenants, you know. This year, my son is a senior in high school. I've been doing a lot of that feels full time work trying to get him into college. So he's been spent. We've been spending a lot of time with our family, you know, because he's going away and so we spent a lot of time with them, so A lot, A lot nicer. No nights, you know? No.

[B]

In a year or two, you're gonna have some more free time when the kids are off to college.

[A]

Oh my God. Yeah. So much, much free time. I, I'm just thinking now, once my son leaves, my first son because he's in sports, so it's gonna be like, what are we gonna do with all this free time?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

But maybe something else. I don't know. I feel like eventually we'll, we'll either take on more consulting or. I don't, I don't know what plan B is Right, Yeah.

[B]

So with, in terms of the leasing, the intellectual property. Leasing agreement. Right.

[A]

Or licensing.

[B]

Thank you. Licensing agreement. Like how does that look like in terms of like on books? Because before, like you would take all the profit, right? Like are you like earning a paycheck now?

[A]

We are earning a paycheck essentially every quarter.

[B]

But you still own the, the rights to the, the branding and the intellectual property, the name.

[A]

So after five years we, they have the option to, to buy that if they don't want to move on with us or we can move on longer. Got it.

[B]

So it's kind of like leasing a space, but you're leasing intellectual property.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And you're here and they're paying you a salary to run to operate your brand in your basically systems. Got it. So you're kind of like. So you're also like managing it in a sense too. They're not managing it.

[A]

We're all sort of managing it.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

Yeah, we're all sort of.

[B]

So yeah. What does your partner do? Like what is he responsible for?

[A]

So technically he runs the hotel, so.

[B]

Tenant improvements, stuff like that.

[A]

Yeah, I mean there's a GM with a hotel. He's supposed to work less because he has all of us, we want him to work less because he is such a hard worker. But he's really involved and you know, it's his first solo ownership project. So I think, you know, he really wants his to be successful and you know, like any successful person, he's, you know, type A and concerned. So.

[B]

Yeah. So one other thing I want to talk about while I have you. I recently did a one on one. I hate to call it coaching because I have no desire to be a coach, but I do feel like I've gotten a lot of perspective over the past 11 years listening to all these different stories. And I might have never opened and scaled my own successful restaurant, but I've heard so many different ways to do it that I think I've learned that there is no one way and it really depends on so many different things. So I do like to let people sit with me and talk with me for about two hours and I just say, well, based off of what I know about you, your values, your vision, your strengths, your weaknesses, have you thought about this? Or like it sounds like you need to, like this is where you're weak, you know, and I'll make recommendations. And this one person I recently was speaking with who scheduled one of these one on one Sessions with me, restaurantstoppable.com evolve if you're interested, A little pitch there. He's like, you know, I'm. I'm. For the first time, I'm working with my wife and she came into the business and, you know, I don't want this business to, you know, I'm really struggling with that part of things. And I was like, well, you know, I've been single, traveling across the country. I don't know if I'm the best person to get for, you know, like, relationship advice. I did say that. You know, from what I've learned, you partnership is a partnership is a partnership. Communication, communication, communication. Whether it's a life partner or a business partner. Like, what are those like, along that line, it's like, what, what are the expectations? Are you spelling it out? Who's responsible for what are you communicating like? But beyond that, as somebody who has spent their, almost their entire career with their life and business partner, what advice do you have for this person?

[A]

I would say, you know, it's funny because people used to ask me, how can you work with your husband? And I was sort of like, well, how can you not.

[B]

It's.

[A]

I think it's special. It. I mean, obviously there's some challenges, but we, well, when we worked at 555, our duties were very separate because he was kitchen and I was from the house. And we would spend a better part of the day not even seeing each other really. So it wasn't like we were side by side the whole time. I think the big thing, it's very similar to parenting. You know, you have to be on the same page. And luckily we are almost always on the same page with most of our decision making. But I would say, like, if, you know, for example, if you don't agree, you don't do it in front of the kids. You know, you wait to a different time and discuss it. You know, you need to be united front and that's important. And I think you don't keep track of who's doing more, who's doing what. You just do it, you know, I don't know. To be honest, it came fairly easy to us. So I don't necessarily know if I'm. Because I don't. I don't think it was challenging. I don't think I would have wanted to do it with anyone else because it is so all consuming and, you know, it was different. You know, we would come home from work, relieve the nanny at like 10. One person would come home first and then the other one would. And then they would start dinner and the other one would Come home and we eat. But we would eat at like 11 o' clock at night and then we would go to bed at like one or two, you know, and then we'd have to alternate who'd put the kids on the bus. Cause of came really early. When you're going to bed at one or two and you have to be up at six or seven, that really sucks. So you alternate that. And so yeah, communication is big because you do have to figure like who is taking the kids and who's, you know. But I don't know, I just don't think it was really hard. We had the same passion, the same work ethic, the same vision. We very rarely disagreed on stuff. Really don't recall like any time I was like, that's a terrible idea. But I think even if you did, you wouldn't. It's really key for the staff to see you on the same page and the same every day. And you know, you can't let anything that you fought about at home bleed into work. They don't want to see that. That's not fair for them. It needs to be consistent and positive. But again, that wasn't hard because I don't remember there being a lot of issues. Maybe he would say differently.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But that, you know, you know that someone has your really honestly has your back and you know, you both honestly want the same things, you know, because you want success. And so even if you don't agree, you, you know inherently that you're, you're coming from the same, you know, goal.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So, you know, if it's someone you don't know or don't trust.

[B]

Yeah, I feel like, you know, I was good giving him the advice to treat it like any other business partner. Because that's what I'm hearing. You know, it's like same vision, same work ethic, same you know, values like communication. Like, even partners shouldn't disagree in front of the team. Like, yeah, it's. I don't know. I don't have kids either, so I can't really understand that parallel.

[A]

But yeah, the only thing I, the only time I'd get annoyed with him, he's like a, he's a talker. And if I'd go home first, I'd be like, well, you know, hurry up because I'm hungry and you know, blah, blah. And he'd be like, yeah, I'd be right behind you. And he was never right behind me. You know, he'd either get stuck talking to a customer, he can't extricate himself from a situation. He's Irish, so he's like, chatter. And so it'd be like an hour and a half later, I'd be like, where the hell are you? Like, that would be my.

[B]

I want to eat so I can go to bed.

[A]

Yes, exactly.

[B]

So anything we haven't discussed up to this point that you were hoping would come out of your story. Unique experience, unique advice that you feel like you need to get out?

[A]

No, I would say, you know, I really think you hit it. You know, I think you need to think about life after. Because there's no rule book that says you have to be open for 50 years.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So many places are. And I like, you know, if your profits are marginalizing and if you're feeling exhausted and if your family's at risk or you've lost that vision, that next step we talked about, and you're not as excited, you know, it might be time to think about a succession plan. And if you haven't thought about. Shouldn't be financially devastating. You know, you need to start thinking about, do you want to sell the business? Do you want to or just. We didn't sell. We just ended up auctioning off everything, which was great because that still made us a good bit of money and.

[B]

Yeah. And you got out in 2019. Not too long before.

[A]

Yeah. Thank God. That would have. Because we had no outdoor seating.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We would have died.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So what was I gonna say? I do. I would be interested in knowing tech stack today. Are you in charge with that? With 555 North. Did you outfit it with technology or did that.

[A]

I didn't have anything to do with that. That would be the owner.

[B]

That.

[A]

He's pretty tech savvy. He. He's got all kinds of scheduling.

[B]

So what are you guys using? Do you know?

[A]

So we use toast. We use. We use some sort of scheduling is a resi.

[B]

Talk.

[A]

We use resi. But I can't remember what the scheduling app is. Sorry.

[B]

I'll find I can fly seven shifts.

[A]

Seven shifts. Seven shifts, Right. So we use seven shifts.

[B]

Do you get into that stuff or what?

[A]

I don't. I'm so bad. I'm an old lady. I cannot do it. I have so little power. You.

[B]

The technology questions.

[A]

It seems great. We are really. He's so good. When Steve and I were running five to five, like you said, we didn't have all that stuff. Right. So, you know, we really waited till our P. Ls came out to see what our labor was like, what our. I Mean, we knew we could see the bank account. We could see. So you knew, like by being there 24 7, you inherently know how you're doing. But sometimes you'd be like, oh, art labors, that's high. You know, then it's, it's a month. So it's too, too late. Now you can work in the next month, but you're like already behind the.

[B]

Yeah. So having that real time is power.

[A]

Yeah, because we're doing it. If you're not going to be there 24 7, you know, you need to schedule at your 30 labor. So you have 30 labor not two months later where you realize you're at 35 or, you know, 38. So no, it's great. I just, I struggle.

[B]

So today you're also very involved with, I mentioned it earlier, Hospitality Maine.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You seem pretty outspoken in our last conversation about the state of the industry. I do like to kind of wrap up the conversation, the free flowing portion of the conversation, talking about where is the industry and where are we headed. As somebody who spent the majority of their career, all their career in hospitality, seeing the evolution of the industry, where we are today versus where we were 23 years ago, and like the state of the industry and where we're going, like, what is the narrative at Hospitality Maine, which is essentially the main restaurant association?

[A]

I think one of the big things we're working on, the narrative that we'd really like to rewrite, is the idea that this is a career oriented industry. I think we're getting a bad rap as this is just something you do as a stopgap on the way to a different career.

[B]

How do you think we got that rap?

[A]

I don't know because obviously I don't think that way. I, I did it since college. Right. But I don't know. I think a lot of people are giving us that rap. You know, it's that old. We all get it. You know, when you're waiting tables and someone assumes you're in college. Yeah. What's your real job? What are you doing now? You know, I think it's always been that way, unfortunately. And I think, you know, I do think, and I think we're fixing that now as an industry. But certainly the pay for, especially for cooks, the lack of benefits has been part of that problem. I do think we're going in the right direction there.

[B]

I mean, if you look at the history of the industry, can you blame people for not treating us like a real job when the world around us was evolving?

[A]

Right.

[B]

And we were kind of stuck in our old ways. You know, the. I mean, a lot of people say that the business model is kind of broken. You know, the 19. The quote unquote, 1905 business model.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Of, you know, tipping and paying people an hourly wage and, you know, not offering benefits, working crazy hours, not being able to have paid time off. You know, I can't really blame people for not taking this industry seriously because kind of the world kind of evolved around us and we kind of stayed.

[A]

Anchored, stayed the same. Yeah, no, yeah, that's. And again, I think. I think that is changing for sure. Yeah. For the best. But, you know, I think it is a little like Elma said in the last time we were talking. That's great and all and that's important and we all want that to happen. But there is a major problem of mathematics of what comes in has to be able to come out. There has to be something left.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And there is a lot of restaurant owners and out there that want to do the right thing and want to do more. But. But can't, you know, so, you know, so they're.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The lines in the graph have to meet somewhere, right?

[B]

Absolutely. Another way to say this is there are a lot of restaurant owners and operators are out there that want to do the right thing, but economically they cannot make it happen.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And pay their bills.

[A]

Right. And that doesn't mean they're doing the wrong thing. It just means they can't do more.

[B]

Right. They want to do more. They want to do more to offer safety and security and opportunity to their staff and to give them that. But at the same time, like, where's the money going to come from? And then the argument is we'll just charge more. And then after that it's like, well, the consumer isn't going to pay for it. So what really has to change? Is it legislation?

[A]

I think. I don't know. You know, I. I think there is. In some ways the legislation has to stop getting involved. In some ways I think there's some over.

[B]

Am I putting on the spot here a little bit?

[A]

I can't say what I want to say. But.

[B]

Why can't you say what you want to say?

[A]

I think. I think people making legislature have to know more about the industry before they make sweeping. Or maybe I'd say like a one size fits all doesn't work. That's my big problem. That's what I advocate a lot for. But a company that has 500 employees doesn't operate like the company that has 20 employees. So for Me, that's the big, big, big.

[B]

Yeah. We're gonna be really careful about what we do here because you look at the farming industry, right? And there are, there's legislation that is clearly built to favor large agriculture, big agro. But local, small mom and pop farmers can't exist in that world. So you know, we gotta really be smart. I, I agree with you that you know I think the other variable, like there's no, there are literally no two restaurants that are exactly the same game unless it's a franchise.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But. And there's like no, there is no one way. Diversity is beautiful in all shapes and forms. And in business models you have to be able to build your business. You have to reverse engineer your business to suit your vision, your value, your, your strengths, your weaknesses. And when you get over legisl or over. What's the word I'm looking for? Systemize or.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Too much legislation. It's a hard work. I know legislation.

[A]

You're just doing that to make me feel better.

[B]

Like then it, it puts you into a box, you know. And freedom, you know, isn't the whole purpose here life, liberty, the pursuit of freedom and happiness. Like, isn't that what this is all about? Like, so if you have too many laws and regulations then you're, you don't really truly have freedom. And I'm somebody who considers myself very middle of the road. I am also for like social and political like or most social like human rights. Like more power to you. But is regulation and Regis, why can't you got me necessarily is over regulating. The answer is more policy. The answer. I kind of push back on that I think and I think here's what I believe and I don't want to put words that we're really here to listen to you but what I believe is that it's been proven that culture can change exponentially. It can transform exponentially. Meaning like you we can make things happen faster with changing culture than we can with changing rules and regulations and systems. I think there needs to be a cultural shift and I don't think it's the government. I think it's. I think that it comes down to the consumer. And the consumer needs to be educated on where they spend their money. And I don't really blame the consumer because the consumer is being bombarded by messaging from big corporations. It's marked. And this I'm so famous for saying not so famous in my mind I will be famous someday for saying marketing is the bane of human existence. Is because once you start to Realize how it works. And you study marketing, it's whoever has the most money controls narratives. And that narrative of these, like companies that have money behind them that are consuming the, the consumer attention and marketing, like the consumer wants more things. The consumer thinks they want more for less. The consumer thinks they want convenience. And the reality is we don't need more. We don't like, we just need like purpose and safety and security and to be seen to be loved. And the restaurant industry can provide a lot of those things. But what we're being told is we need to keep up with the Joneses, we need a new pair of shoes, we need the latest gadget and technology in our hand, we need all of the streaming services, we need all this part of my language that we just don't need, you know, and it's like, when are we gonna start, like educating and empowering the consumer to, to put their money where it matters back into their communities?

[A]

Well, I mean, and I'm a big believer of things, especially in the economy, working themselves out. So for example, the. Yeah, the idea that things need to change in this business and it'll have to because people are already leaving this business to work other places because we're not giving them. Traditionally we had not been giving them health care and a decent wage and paid time off. So they're leaving us and we can't hire people. So we have to shift and we have to change and the survivors will do that. So I don't necessarily need legislation. Got it. To do that. I'll have to do that if I want to hire people.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, let it, let it evolve. Let the, you know, it's. I think it is good that we have to provide 401k now, but we always did since pretty much since we opened. We offered a matched 401K and had health insurance plans, we had maternity leave. A lot of these things that we'd come up with to attract people. But now everyone has them. So.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, we can't be special and attractive, but now that's great for everybody. But, you know, I think that was all coming anyway because it had no choice.

[B]

I often look at where we're going with AI and automation and technology and I wonder if a big part of the white collar workforce or like the, you know, the office jobs are going to be going away soon and that makes me wonder where are these people going to go? And I wonder if hospitality, the experience economy, the transformation economy on this idea of people coming together to, you know, to lift each other up to, you know, educate and, I don't know, just find purpose beyond a paycheck if the restaurant industry is going to be sitting prime to capture those people and to basically just be more about community again, you know. So I gotta bake that thought a little bit better, but hopefully I'm hopeful.

[A]

Yeah, hopefully. Yeah.

[B]

This has been a lot of fun. Thank you so much. A couple more questions before we officially wrap it up. What is your one thing, a value, a process, a system, something unique about your businesses that have made you unstoppable?

[A]

I think I try to teach my staff and empathy. I think that's one thing that goes hand in hand with hospitality. I always tell this story because it's really hard, I don't think, if you haven't been a server, for example, in your life, it's really hard to understand those challenges when someone's mean to you or just doing it day in, day out, every day and taking care of other people. And it's exhausting. And especially if you're working for a high end place where there's a lot of standards, there's a lot of things to remember and learn and a lot of steps. So it's hard to be that happy person all the time. I tell this story when I was early on in five to five, I was pregnant and I was seating this woman like, you know, we always do pull out the chair for her, hand her the menu, so grumpy. And she was like, I can't remember, but she was like, why are you pulling out my chair? This is so unnecessary, you know, just very rude to me. And I'm thinking, how could she be rude to this? I'm like vastly pregnant and I was doing everything right. And I was like, this is awful. She's an awful woman, you know, And I walk away and I hear a noise and I look around and she, the chair broke under her. Shit. This is the worst thing that could happen to this, like, mean lady. And now our chair broke and she's gonna be so pissed off. So I go running back to her and I'm like, I have to eat crow in front of this lady. And she looks up at me and she said, well, I guess that's what I get for being so mean. She's like, I just came from the hospital, My son has cancer and he was in the hospital and I, you know, I mistreated you and I'm sorry. And this is what, again, she was actually laughing. And that has always stuck with me because we don't know what Other people are going through. We don't. It doesn't necessarily give them excuse to be mean to us or to anyone. But we're here to make them forget about that stuff for a while. That is our job, or not even our job. You know, if you sign up for this, that should be what you want to do. And your co workers, so your co worker didn't polish the silver like they're supposed to. Maybe some shitty is going on in their life. Your boss, your chef, your whatever, you know. So I think that is just such a huge part of what we do. Understanding that and living that and feeling that and if, if you can do that, I think it'll help you get through the day and be really good at what you do and, and also feel good about what you do at the end of the day.

[B]

Yeah, I love that. Thank you for sharing that story too. The mission statement is to change the world through inspiring, empowering and transforming the industry. How have you personally transformed. How is Michelle Corey a better woman today than she was when she got started?

[A]

Assuming that I am, I think, I think I've relaxed a little. You know, I think I understanding hopefully work life balance, not just for me, but a little more understanding how important that is to our employees. I'd like to think I'm better about that each year and empathizing with their life struggles because I am fortunate enough to be out of it a little bit. That's a little bit easier versus when you're in it. And they're almost like exact colleagues who are doing the same thing. So it's hard to empathize if they're not working as hard as you. But now it's a little easier to see that and hope with my little more free time, giving back more, hopefully helping people. Hopefully people feel comfortable to ask me questions and ask for advice and give it freely and willingly. I've been able to, you know, give some more time for some nonprofits and see more of what's going on in Portland and helping and, and just having that time and using it for not just work related things.

[B]

I'm happy you say that because I had this idea to put you and Paige in the same room with this gentleman that I had this one on one with to get some feedback from two women who have business partners who are their husbands. Okay, so maybe we can do a little.

[A]

That would be fun.

[B]

He's gonna get it. Okay, so the last, last question. If you got the news you'd be leaving this world tomorrow, all the memories of you Your work and your restaurants would be lost with your departure. With the exception of three pieces of wisdom that you could leave behind for the good of humanity and your legacy. What would those three pieces of wisdom be?

[A]

I wrote some. I looked at this and I wrote some down. I can't remember. Well, I think I said empathy. Have empathy for other humans. Take advice and use it. Learn it. Learn from others. God, what was the third one?

[B]

Have a succession plan.

[A]

Don't do this forever. Don't destroy yourself. Work, life, balance, I guess.

[B]

Buy the land, buy the property.

[A]

Yeah. Take a look around. I mean, enjoy it while you're in it, too, because it is a special. I think it's a really special industry. You're doing something different every day. You're learning from people above you and below you and with you, and you're having fun and you're laughing, and you get to see a huge slice of humanity in good and bad, and you become closer. The people you work with, because it's such a funky industry, you just become really close. So, you know, enjoy it while you're doing it.

[B]

I've really loved today's conversation. Michelle, thank you for letting me put a mic in front of you twice in one month.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I'm happy that we picked up where we left off. Who do you respect and admire? Who? This is my North Star. This is really what I want to be.

[A]

There's a long list, but give me the list. Okay, well, you know, Paige and Ilma and Teresa, they're fantastic bosses. They're fantastic business women, and they're fantastic mothers. They inspire me as a mother. They inspire me to have more patience with my kids.

[B]

I do want to say owners and operators or owners and operators. Yeah, I'm looking for owners. Really?

[A]

Oh, okay. That's fine. My husband, I'd say.

[B]

I'd love to get him on.

[A]

He. He inspires me. He's very patient human. And I'm not, so God Love him. Steve DeMillo is amazing operator. Amazing human. His wisdom is. I mean, you think I've been doing this long?

[B]

He's been doing restaurants as Young Danilo's.

[A]

Yeah. On the water. Gerard Kalagian, my partner, he's been doing this for a long time. He's an amazing business person. He's kind and thoughtful and, you know, has super interesting experiences and is patient.

[B]

Hotelier or restaurateur as well.

[A]

He is now a restaurateur, but this is his first restaurant. He's a hotelier. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's. Oh, Jean Marvin Ginn Marvin. Sorry. She operates the no Nantum in Kennebunk. Port.

[B]

No Nantum.

[A]

The no Nantum. Yeah. A big resort, but there's several restaurants there as well. She's inspiring. She gives back to the community. They have this amazing program there where they hire people recent either recovering. They have a huge recovery program, and it's amazing what they do for people. Second chances. So that's. That's an inspiring place to work. Yeah.

[B]

Steve Corey. Steve DeMillo. D'. Amillo. Thank you. Jared Collagen. Gerard Collagen. Thank you. And Gene. Marvin. Look, I'm coming after Gene.

[A]

Gin Marvin.

[B]

Yeah. Marvin. I'm really doing great right now.

[A]

That's all right.

[B]

I'm horrible with names. They asked me to moderate a panel. I'm happy to announce Restaurant or. Sorry, US Foods is going to be sponsoring Restaurant. Gonna be sponsoring Restaurant Stoppable podcast. And part of the agreement is I'm going to be heading out to Las Vegas. We're going to be moderating a panel, and I'm like, just give me the easy names.

[A]

That's all.

[B]

Just give me the easy names.

[A]

Can I shorten it to this is my Achilles name?

[B]

Why don't you go ahead and introduce yourselves, please? This has been a lot of fun, Michelle.

[A]

Thank you very much.

[B]

I literally can't do what I do without people like you. Before we say goodbye, what's the best way to connect if we want to follow up with you, hire you for your consulting services or maybe work with you as a gm?

[A]

Yes, that would be great. You. You had to look up my Instagram last time.

[B]

Oh, that's right. I did I do it again.

[A]

I don't know it. That's embarrassing. Now we're going to do it twice. I should have. Or I could say my email is Michelle.

[B]

M I C H E L L E C o r r y 2, 3. That's your Instagram.

[A]

I mean email, too. Michelle Corey, 2337 Gmail anytime. Happy to.

[B]

Awesome. Thank you so much, Michelle.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

I really appreciate this time. I literally cannot do what I do without people like you making it possible. There is no questioning. You are unstoppable.

[A]

Thank you. It was fun.

[B]

Cheers.