1218: Sean Finter, Founder of Barmetrix, CEO & Head Coach of Finter Group, Owner of The Franklin House

Summary

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Restaurant Unstoppable #1218: Sean Finter, Founder of Barmetrix, CEO & Head Coach at Finter Group, Owner of The Franklin House

Date: September 11, 2025
Host: Eric Cacciatore
Guest: Sean Finter

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Overview

In this rich and wide-ranging conversation, repeat guest Sean Finter—bar operations expert, author, and leadership coach—returns to share powerful insights on restaurant leadership, human connection, building winning cultures, and the evolving role of hospitality. The episode dives deep into the practical and philosophical foundations for long-term success in hospitality, focusing on self-awareness, creating environments where both staff and guests feel seen, and the need to proactively shape culture even as technology and society change.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Sean's Current Focus: Books, Coaching, and Intentional Living

• Sean’s Life Shift: Downsized his company, now travels extensively, writes, and focuses on coaching—his “dream job.”
  [05:35] Sean Finter: “Now we’re free to travel the world—writing a couple of books, speaking, and coaching, which I love.”
• Book Projects: Originally started with one book, now split into two:
  • One on hospitality and creating systemized guest experiences.
  • One more business-general (Napkinomics), focused on getting teams aligned on one page.
    [06:12 / 19:53]
• Mantra for Success: [07:41] Sean Finter: “Before you have a breakthrough, you have to have a break with.”
  Context: Letting go of things that hold you back—whether people, mindsets, or overcommitments.

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2. Self-Awareness and Growth: The Leadership Mindset

• Self-Awareness Journey: Key to success is focus—professionally and personally.
  [09:26] “What is it I want to do? Where do I want to put my focus?”
• The People You Surround Yourself With:
  [104:04] “There’s eight or nine people with tremendous influence. Put a plus or a minus beside each: are they taking you toward your future? There’s no neutrals.”
• Personal Growth Applied to Teams:
  Healthier individuals create healthier business cultures and outcomes.
• Mentorship and Being Seen: Sean credits his growth to mentors who gave responsibility before he was ready and genuinely saw his potential.
  [11:17] “Someone believed in me more than I believed in myself... and pushed me to go after it.”

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3. Fear, Focus, and Taking First Steps

• Handling Fear (with children and staff):
  • F.E.A.R. = “False Evidence Appearing Real”
  • “Fear is a mile wide and an inch deep.”
  • Encourage going on offense—ask questions first, take initiative.
    [14:20]
    “When we just take that first step, when we ask the first question, the momentum just starts… whatever fear we had starts to dissolve.”

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4. Human-to-Human (H2H) Leadership & The Art of Hospitality

• Modern Happiness and Leadership:
  • Diverse needs among team—ask, don’t assume what brings happiness.
  • Promote “Dreaming Out Loud”: Use vision boards, public dreams wall in staff areas to spark support, belonging, and energy.
    [16:53] “Help getting into their head, their heart—understanding what makes them happy at work and at home.”
• Go-Giver Mentality:
  [18:02] Discusses impact of giving without expectation—value and opportunities always follow.
• Systemizing Hospitality:
  Both as a feeling and a process—storytelling, brand clarity, staff induction, regular revisiting of values and mission. [21:33 / 24:25] “How do you hire people who get energy from delivering your brand?”

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5. Building Culture: Values, Systems, and the Napkinomics Approach

• Defining (and Living) Values:
  • Start with a small set (4–5), test them rigorously:
    • Would you pass on a candidate who doesn’t embody this value?
    • Would you fire your top performer for violating it?
    • Would you take a financial hit to protect it?
      [47:54 / 57:12]
  • Must be memorable, actionable, and reinforced constantly—pre-shift huddles, public celebration, storytelling.
• Mission Statements:
  • Deeply personal—owners need to dig into real drivers, not copy generic aspirations.
  • The best mission statements foster belonging, purpose, and attract the right fit, not just any employee or guest.
  • [61:36]: “My mission was to shed that label [misfit] and build a stage where others could find out who they were.”

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6. Core Hospitality Skills (Sean’s “Hospitality Playbook”)

• The Three Core Skills:
  1. See Others & Be Seen; Create Instant Rapport
     • Foundation of hospitality: “The first thing you do and learn is to see another person and be seen by that person.”
     • Create personal connection, make people smile.
     • Practice tens of thousands of times in hospitality.
     • [35:55] / [37:19]
  2. Sell With Dignity
     • Selling is “being a good steward of the opportunity.”
     • Never force; always find and guide to what’s right for the guest.
     • [36:47] “Sales is opening opportunities they wouldn’t otherwise know about.”
     • “Sales” is not a dirty word—reframe as genuinely helpful suggestion.
     • [44:13] “We are retailers… it’s just being a great steward and guiding towards good choices.”
  3. Marketing: Give a Reason to Return
     • Four walls marketing is crucial—build repeat business through insider experiences, stories, and personal touches.
     • Make guests feel like insiders; create memorable moments worth sharing.
     • Merchandise and brand artifacts can strengthen the tribal feeling.
     • [38:20] “Spend more time when they're right in front of you, asking them to come back.”
     • “If you want to build a tribe, give them a flag to hold.”
     • [82:35]

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7. AI, Progress, and the Human Future of Hospitality

• AI as a Tool, Not a Threat
  • Automation and AI enhance storytelling, training, communication—freeing humans to build relationships.
  • Great for operators who aren’t natural writers/speakers: “AI is the biggest gift they’re ever going to have.” [29:55]
  • Frees time for creativity; tactical jobs will evolve, but the human element is irreplaceable.
  • Hospitality will have more jobs as humans seek connection where machines can’t provide it.
  • [33:57] “The best jobs in hospitality are about connecting as humans, which AI can't replace.”

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8. The Tribe vs. Customer Base: Focus, Specialization & Artistry

• Don’t Appeal to Everyone
  • Success comes from doing “your art” so well that your tribe finds you.
  • “If you do your art so friggin well, 20% are going to be blown away… and that’s enough.” [77:34]
  • Avoid watering down your brand trying to make everyone happy; build a community (“tribe”) instead of a generic customer base.
  • Merchandise, insider stories, and cross-community rituals foster stronger loyalty.

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9. Political/Technological Disruption & The Role of Restaurant as Community Hub

• Restaurants as Social & Political Centers
  • Historically, restaurants and bars have been the genesis of political movements.
  • Sean advocates for restaurants leaning back into their role as community hubs—hosting local discussions, debates, and political groups.
  • [96:45] “Position your bar/restaurant as the hub of the community… If you’re not sharing the space, you’re missing out.”
• Tariffs, Globalization, and Staff Training
  • Tariff swings create front-line stress—communicate changes transparently; maintain trust.
  • Larger conversation about supporting local vs. global supply chains—there’s nuance, no easy answer.
  • Sean encourages seeing the bigger context and gratitude for unprecedented abundance.
  • [93:03] “Looking at that angle of gratitude—man, aren’t we lucky? There’s a lack of gratitude in general about how friggin lucky we are.”

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10. The Urgency of Mental Health in Hospitality

• Proactive Mental Health Cultures = Business Benefit
  • “It’s not a cost—it’s a benefit.” Lower turnover, less drama, more creativity.
  • Practical steps: Colored lights to silently signal stress on the floor; “utility players” as flexible extra staff during peak times; alcohol-free bars for staff.
  • Model the cultural change—attract those who want to grow in a healthy, supported environment.
  • [98:30] “It’s actually a cost benefit... When you attract that kind of person, you have less turnover, less gossip, less issues.”

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Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Before you have a breakthrough, you have to have a break with.”
  – Sean Finter [07:41]

• “The healthier the individual, the healthier the collective, the healthier the business.”
  – Sean Finter [10:20]

• On fear:
  “Fear is a mile wide and an inch deep. The best way is to step into it—go on offense.”
  – Sean Finter [14:20]

• “Help getting into their head, their heart, understanding what makes them happy at work... it’s a big first step as a leader.”
  – Sean Finter [16:53]

• “When we just take that first step... whatever it was that was holding us back, the fear, starts to dissolve.”
  – Eric Cacciatore [15:05]

• On building values:
  “If your staff can’t remember them, they can’t honor them.”
  – Sean Finter [47:38]

• “If you do your art so well, 20% will be blown away and love it… and I love those numbers.”
  – Isaac Tigrett via Sean Finter [77:34]

• “Sales is being a good steward of the opportunity.”
  – Sean Finter [36:47]

• “You tell me another job where they can learn to see and be seen, sell with dignity, and market at 14, 16 years old, and practice thousands of times.”
  – Sean Finter [36:59]

• On mental health:
  “Most bars and restaurants have 14-18 peak hours a week. For $20/hr, an extra hand literally pays for itself.”
  – Sean Finter [99:56]

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• [03:54] Sean’s update: Career shift, books in progress
• [07:13] Success mantra: “Before you have a breakthrough...”
• [09:45] The power of focus & self-awareness in leadership
• [11:17] The role of mentorship and being seen
• [14:20] Teaching kids and staff about confronting fear
• [16:03] Making people happy: listening to individual motivators
• [19:53] Books: Systemizing Hospitality & Napkinomics
• [24:25] Building culture, induction, and using exit interviews
• [35:26] The three hospitality superpowers (see/be seen, sell with dignity, market for return)
• [44:29] Why “being seen” matters for both staff and guest
• [47:54] Building and stress-testing core values
• [57:12] The filtering test: defining real core values
• [61:36] Mission: “Build a stage for misfits”
• [77:34] Don’t be a generalist—do your art “so friggin well”
• [93:03] Abundance, perspective, and gratitude: “Best time for humans to be alive”
• [98:30] Mental health as culture—and business edge
• [101:24] Contact Sean: Instagram & Facebook

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Takeaways for Aspiring Restaurateurs

• Be intentional: Shedding distractions and aligning life/business to core values drive growth.
• Invest in people: Mentorship and seeing strengths in others change organizations.
• Hospitality is human: Culture, connection, and a feeling of “being seen” trump almost everything else.
• Systemize your art: Values, vision, and culture must be taught and lived daily.
• Lean into community: Restaurants are natural hubs for both local and societal progress.
• Embrace change: Use new tools and face new challenges—but keep the core human.
• Prioritize mental health: It’s smart business, not just “nice-to-have.”
• Gratitude & perspective: We’re in an unprecedented era for both opportunity and abundance.

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Connect with Sean Finter

• Instagram: @fintersean
• Facebook: Sean Finter
• Join Finter's Coaching Community: Search for his group on Facebook or follow via the links in the show notes.

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“There’s a formula for a life filled with happiness and purpose—it’s the people you let in, the things you choose to focus on, and the art you dare to do well.”
– Sean Finter [104:58]

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For detailed tools, show notes, and a curated playlist of Sean Finter’s appearances, visit restaurantunstoppable.com/finter.

New: Sean is hosting a monthly live Bar Operations Power Hour—details on the website.

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Transcript

[Eric Cacciatore]

What up Unstoppables? We have a great episode for you today. Shawn Finter, repeat guest coming back on and I'm stoked for this one because this Sean has worked with some of the most amazing bar programs across the country. Pouring with heart, said Moses, Jack McGarry, the dead rabbit, Gary Krinkle, John Sealbinder. He's the founder of Bar Metrics. Before that, he came up with the hard rock halfway this. This guy knows his stuff. And he I'm really excited to say that if you enjoyed today's episode and you rem first episode I did with Sean will actually create a playlist for you. Head over to restaurant stoppable.com finter F I N T e r you can get the the Sean Finter playlist. And the reason why we're creating a playlist is because Starting next week, September 18, Sean Finter is gonna be making himself live once a month to answer all of your bar operations and profitability questions. This guy is a powerhouse. Guys, this is what we're doing at Restaurant Unstoppable Network. I'm stoked and I want you to be a part of it because it is literally game changing. My network is now your network. Head over to restaurantstoppable.com live and make sure you join us in a week from today, September 18th, for our first ever bar operations Power hour with Sean Fincher. Now, enjoy today's show. Welcome to restaurant unstoppable. For 10 years and over 1,000 episodes, I've been traveling the country chasing word of mouth leads and having in person only long form discussions with the industry's finest owners and operators. Our mission is to inspire, empower and transform the restaurant industry by bridging the gap between this generation's leaders and the next. Listen to today's guests and so many others and get one step closer to becoming unstoppable. Do you wish you could have all of your restaurant needs and solutions under one roof? Well, you can. It's called Restaurant Systems Pro. And with Restaurant Systems Pro, you get accounting systems, budgeting systems, costing systems, purchasing systems, inventory management systems, labor management systems, training systems, and systems to create and implement checklists. And on top of all this, Restaurant Systems Pro has their own native general ledger. And they're in the process of launching their own pos, which they are so appropriately naming serve because that's exactly what they do. To learn more, head over to restaurant unstoppable.com RSP where you can schedule your own demo. Watch a demo that I did with Restaurant Systems Pro CEO Fred Langley or catch every and all testimonial we've ever recorded on the show. That's restaurantunstoppable.com RSP this episode is made possible by me. Mies is a digital recipe platform that helps you stay creative, build profitable menus and nail food execution at scale. We know to scale you need consistency because consistency builds trust with your guests and your staff. We all want to know what the job done right looks like. And when you have systems, your systems are a picture of perfection, of what that job done right is. And that puts us to peace. We are so happy when we know we're doing a good job. Me will be the one source of truth for your entire team. It's time to take control of your profitability. Learn more at www.getmes.com unstoppable that's www.g-e t m e e z.com unstoppable with excite. To introduce to you today's guest founder of Bar Metrics, CEO and head coach of Finter Group and owner of the Franklin House, Sean Finter. Welcome back on the show, my man. How you doing?

[Sean Finter]

I'm doing great.

[Eric Cacciatore]

You feeling unstoppable?

[Sean Finter]

I'm feeling unstoppable. Glad you're back, man.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Dude. Stoked to have you here. Sean. Vendor. First time I had you on the show, 1027. That was two years ago. Okay. It was an amazing episode. If you folks are listening to this and did not catch that episode, 1027, head back, check it out. It's. It's a doozy. You had some amazing advice on mentorship. You know the number one reason why restaurants fail. You got into that one quote that you, you had epic. If you want to attract epic people onto yourself, you have to do epic. There's just so many things that like, were one, like bangers from that episode, man. And, and honestly, it had an influence on me. It really did. And you know, the dream was to get in a camper and to drive around the country and to do epic.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

You know, and I think hearing that quote really kind of reminded me like, you know, if you want, if you want to do cool stuff, like, you have to make it happen.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Sean Finter]

You know, and you are. I just parked beside the camper.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah, man. It's out there. Two months. They were my last interview from a two month road trip. We got content scheduled into October. I've never been that far. Six months of content scheduled into the future, which is going to be huge for me. Yeah. To be able to pivot and to Work on the business. So I'm stoked for that. When we last spoke to you, you know, I asked, was there anything that we should be talking about that, you know, the mission statement is to inspire, empower, and transform the world, and you said, we need to be better about H2H, human to human. That was a big thing that you talked about. You said, owners need to be better at leading leadership, and leadership needs to be better at leading staff.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

You know, so kind of pick up there we left off. But anything new with you and your business that I should be aware of before we get started?

[Sean Finter]

You know, the business right now is, you know, went from a really big team a little while back to just Ali and I and some support, and it's. It's a totally different world, man. My phone, I don't even know if it's on or off sometimes. It used to ring five, ten times an hour. And now. And we're free to travel the world writing a couple of books. Nice speaking and coaching, which is my favorite thing to do. So, yeah, I've kind of created my dream job.

[Eric Cacciatore]

So what is the core focus right now for you in the books, in the coaching? Like, what is the area of expertise?

[Sean Finter]

So the books and books, plural. Because I thought I was writing a book. I submitted it, working with the publisher, and they're like, oh, this is two books. You know, this is. This is so good. And the reason I agreed to it was that one is going to really focus on our industry, on hospitality, and the other is more business general. And so I thought, well, twice as much work, two books. And with my dyslexia, it turns out it's like five times the work, and just trying to pull them apart, make sure they still work, the stories connect and the whole deal. But I'm getting there. I'm getting close.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah, man. And I know that was a big part of what you're working on when I was last year. And please know when those books come out, you're coming back on the show. We're gonna go into it. You know, I like to start every episode by having my. My guest share a success quote or mantra. I have the one that you share with us the last time I want to see. I'm tempted to tell you afterwards, I want to see if you're a man of consistency. So what do you have for a success quote or mantra today?

[Sean Finter]

Oh, God, I. There's so many. Every day I read, you know, 10 or 15 quotes. You know, I've been reading the. The philosophers lately. You know, there just so much. So much great stuff there.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Wow.

[Sean Finter]

You put me on the spot. I'm trying to think of the right one for the moment.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Well, it was another. I mean, I can share if you want me to share. Okay. So I think. And this is me paraphrasing before you have a breakthrough. Am I clicking any memories for you right now?

[Sean Finter]

Yeah. What is it you have to have a break with?

[Eric Cacciatore]

What do you mean by that, man?

[Sean Finter]

So, you know, when. Going back eight years, went through a really tough time in my life, and, you know, for a guy who likes to be in control and pulls everything into himself, everything was being pulled away from me. You know, going through a divorce, mental health was an issue for me at that time, really badly. Business partnership breaking down. And I called a friend of mine in Australia, who I really look up to, and he was listening to me. And, you know, most of the people I told. I only told a few other people, but they're like, oh, man, that's terrible. I'm so sorry, and everything else. And he was quiet, and I could, like, hear him smiling. And he goes, okay, this is how it goes, man. You're about to. You're coming up on this big breakthrough. And he said, you just have so much weight dragging behind you that he said, it's not natural to hold on to all of this and think you can pick up more things on the way through. So he kind of saluted where I was at. I accepted that I was having a break with a few different things. And he was absolutely right. I had a big breakthrough.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah. And it kind of supports a lot of what you shared in the. In the last conversation, too, is like, you know, if you. When you were reflecting in our first conversation, you're saying you'd look back and, like, I asked you, like, one thing. You would have done different when you owned restaurants. You would have focused on one concept and put energy into one concept. I think one of the. In the world where there's just so much coming at us and there's, like, so many opportunities, like shiny ball or shiny object syndrome or whatever it is. Like, the people who do the best are always super focused, and they put all their energy. They know what they're good at, or they. They take one thing, they become the best at it, and they do it better than anybody else, and they just scale it.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

And I think that that has been such a lesson here on this podcast. Like, it. And it sounds like one thing that's happened in the last two years or what you've continued to do in the last two years since I spoke with you is just continue to kind of whittle down a focus on what it is that I want to do. What, like what, where do I want to put my focus? Like, where is that focus today?

[Sean Finter]

Well, you know, the, the coaching that I do is, is kind of the center of my, my business universe. And I've been doing it now for almost 20 years, about 18 years. And this is after, you know, having eight of my own bars and restaurants and really what I feel, making all of the mistakes and sometimes three or four times. And you know, the big takeaway for me and the reflection of my business chapter back then and what I'm helping people with now is, you know, the healthier the individuals, the healthier the collective, the healthier the business.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

Like, there's just so much churn and waste and anxiety and in, you know, all of the drama that comes with a lot of people in this industry and you know, the lack of focus on health and you know, being successful humans is first and foremost is going to help us be a successful bar back bartender, bar manager, bar owner, whatever you are. And I think we, we get away from that. We think if we just come to work and work hard, whatever that means, you know, we're going to be successful. And I've tried to help my clients say, like, let's look at these individuals. A lot of people come in, it's their first job. Other people, it's 10 years into a dead end job, dead end industry and saying, how do we help them step into their potential? You know, I don't want to sound like Tony Robbins, but like somebody did it for me and believed in me more than I believed in myself and then pushed me to go after it.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Is this your, your original the boss, the Greek boss, the trucker operation, the, the truck stop?

[Sean Finter]

Yeah, he was, he was the first. But I've had three bosses, including him, that did that for me. You know, just different ages and stages in my life and somebody looked at me and, and you know, gave me more responsibility than I deserved. And the small me, you know, went, oh, how am I going to get paid for that? How is this going to work? And I just kept hearing this voice in my head to say, take it on and do it and see what happens. And I just kept going and going. And you know, by the time I became a business owner at 26 years.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Old, I mean, what's coming through my mind right now is just self awareness. Right. And I think self Awareness starts with other people recognizing your strengths and potential. And I don't think we know what we're self like. We don't have self awareness when we're 12, 13, 14 even until we get to our like mid to late 20s, that's when it starts to happen. For most people, that frontal lobe younger. For women, typically their mid-20s, like 24, 25. But from for men, sometimes late 28, 30 years old, sometimes you don't really get that self awareness. But by seeing, by, I think we, we become self aware by, by paying attention to the patterns and the reinforcement we get from the world around us. When somebody says you're good at that.

[Sean Finter]

Yeah.

[Eric Cacciatore]

And you start to see these patterns. Oh, I'm good at this. And like, and we all need to be seen. That was a big part. What the number one reason why restaurants failed, you talked about this in our first episode. Is that we're not good at seeing people and making people feel seen and welcome to hospitality. Right. We are creatures that, that thrive on being seen and being valued. And when we do that for our staff, we see and value them and reinforce that what they're good at, we help them become self aware. And I think it's this never ending journey of self awareness. And as you continue to become more and more self aware, you start to shred all the things that just don't make you happy. Right, right. And that's continuing, it sounds like that's continuing to happen for you to this day.

[Sean Finter]

Well, you know, being a coach has really allowed me this unique vantage point to see, you know, I figured out in many areas of business why things work, but I guess I didn't have it all figured out on why things didn't work. You know, like what is it that holds us back from doing that? You mentioned recognizing patterns.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

Like I don't know anyone in the industry that's 50% better than everybody else.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

There's 5%, 10%, 15%. But there's a pattern to how they got there. And even though it might take me two years in this stage, it only took them one. I have to do the things they did to get the result that they got. And you look at fear is a main restrictor. My 14 year old daughter is the last one to enter the workforce. You have to be 14 in Maryland to work here. And she's working at a restaurant right up the road with her sister who also works there. And she was going in for the interview and although she kind of knows the owner, like just through me, she's scared. She's a 14 year old girl going into this big busy restaurant. And this ties to your question about a quote that I've been thinking about lately. I said to her that two things about fear. One is the acronym F E A R is false evidence appearing real.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

So I asked her what she was afraid of and this might happen. That might happen. I said, it's unlikely that it will.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

And if it does, we can get through it. And secondly, I love the quote that fear is a mile wide and an inch deep. And I said, you just got to step into it. And I said, the best way to do that is to go on the offense. And I said, you know what? I said, what happens at an interview? And she said, well, he's going to ask me a bunch of questions. And I said, are you afraid of that? And she said, yeah, I am a little bit. And I said, well, what if you started by asking him a question? And she said, well, what would I ask? I said, well, let's think about it, you know. So she came up with two really great questions and she led the interview with that, you know, and said suddenly when I saw her afterwards, she said I wasn't afraid anymore. I was in a, in a discussion, in a dialogue, rather than being interrogated.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah, you know, I think we, we put off doing the thing.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

You know, we put more energy into worrying about the thing than actually doing the thing itself.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

And when we just take that first step, when we ask the first question, you know, it just, that the momentum just starts. And like whatever it was that was holding us back, whatever fear we had to start to dissolve. That, that. Yeah, you also, you know, we're talking about the human connectivity. I wanted to make sure we brought that into it. And you said, you know, we're becoming, I think, and I'm paraphrasing, it's. We're learning more and more about what it means to be human.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

As we go into the future, we're learning more about, you know, psychological evolution or just like our, the study of us.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Like as the world of science progresses and technology progresses, we're just learning more about how we tick and what we need to be happy. What do you, how do you think that manifests in like the workplace today? Like as we learn more about us, like how is that manifesting in the workplace?

[Sean Finter]

You know, the, the, the word happy is I think, a good place to start. And one of, one of my big failings as an early leader in the industry was assuming I Knew what made people happy.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

I assumed that what makes me happy also makes you happy. More money, more of this, more of that. And when I slowed down enough to start asking people, I was actually shocked at how diverse our needs and interests are. And it's not just who we are as humans, it's where we're at in our life and what's around us. And I think as a business leader, starting there, we had. And I'll share with you. We taught people to dream out loud, like I was taught, and create a vision board for themselves. And happiness, you know, doesn't exist in a silo. So, you know, help getting, getting into their head, getting in their heart, understanding what makes them happy at work. It's a big first step as a leader. But what also makes them happy at home.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

Is it any of my business? Only if they want to share it.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

And, you know, where are they at? What are they driving towards? What would be wonderful for the future? Looking at what would take to be happier as a family and their family, you know, is that more time at home is this, you know, three, five things that are different than today. And then the final quadrant, we work with the team. The number one way to build self confidence is to volunteer, right? To get involved in your community. So saying, you know, what is it that you could do? And it could be an hour a month, it could be half a day, twice a year, whatever it might be. So, you know, that idea of dreaming out loud and as a dyslexic, you know, I have all mine in pictures up on the wall. And we had a whole wall in my last business office just up the road here that we could stand in this hallway and look at someone's dreams, right? And where they were at and then say, man, I think I could help you with that. And I know someone in Rome. And you know, you start to connect all these dots that to me, you know, how does that show up on a balance sheet? I'm not 100% sure, but I know it does.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah, you don't. You can't track it. You just have to know that it's like this energy gets put out and it's just like there's a book out there I love and it's not a very popular book. It's called the Go Giver. Have you ever heard of it?

[Sean Finter]

Yeah, I have.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Ye love that book. And it's this idea of like, don't be a go getter. Don't try to go out and get things. Go out and try to give people thing, be a person of value, be valuable to other people with whatever way you can think of to add value to someone else's life. And then the, The. The opportunities knock down your door. It's. There's something going on there. Whether. I mean, I think it's probably a synonymous with the power of attraction.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

It's that same idea of, like, just being positive attracts positive things.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right, right, right.

[Sean Finter]

But, you know, it's funny you mentioned that, that in my last company, before I sold it, somebody reached out to me and they were, you know, only two hours away, but two hours from Washington, D.C. and they said, hey, we're really struggling here, and my partner's having issues with his mental health and this and that, and we just don't have a lot of budget. Like we're. And so I said, you know what? I'll come down. They want me to come down and do like a couple hours with the team and, and talk with them. And so some folks on my old team were like, how does this make sense? Like, you're gonna. You're gonna burn a whole day here, you know, going down there. And I said, I just feel it's the right thing to do. And I heard in his voice. I've had that tone in my voice before, and I wish someone would have just helped. And long story short, I went down and did the thing. There was a rep in there, a senior guy from beverage company. Three, four, five months later, we signed a significant contract off the back. And what he heard me talking about, you know, pass it on to his team and so on and so forth. And, you know, it just. To me, it just makes sense to put yourself out there where you can help, where you can be helpful out in the universe. And. And, you know, certainly not every time something comes back. But I wasn't doing it to get something back. Just the way the world works sometimes.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah. So you're working on two books right now?

[Sean Finter]

Yeah.

[Eric Cacciatore]

One book is gonna be focused on the business side of things, and the other one is just more of a general. Or no, general business and general hospitality. Yeah, the two books.

[Sean Finter]

Yeah. So the, the reason that the editors wanted to split it in two is that I've been thinking about and studying and. And trying to figure out how to systematize hospitality. And hospitality, to me, is a feeling. Right. It's a way we feel. I believe it's a way that the guest feels about themselves while they're in our company. So how do you systematize that? You know, how do you articulate what your brand is. How do you hire people that would get energy from delivering that brand? How do you get leadership involved? And so it turned out to be a pretty weighty piece, but I've had fun with it. I've broken it up into 10 chapters, stories behind each and everything else. So that's kind of the standalone for the industry, then the second book in parallel with that is on a program and a concept that I first wrote about 25, 26 years ago called Napkinomics. And just putting the entire team on one page. And you know, what. What are we fighting for and what are the values that make us great? And what's our strategy on hospitality? And, you know, when we blow it with a guest or with each other, when we let each other down, how do we recover the relationship, right When. When saying sorry just isn't enough? You know, what are the two or three or five steps that you would take to do that? You know, the reason that piece is so important to me is that is. I think that's. That's central to my success as a young bar and restaurant owner. You know, truly being able to not only put everyone on the same page, but I knew it was working when people that have been with me 6 months and 12 months were teaching it to the new people coming in. And better than that, holding everyone accountable to it.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Behind every great restaurant is a great person. The key to being great is to be of service to others. And this holds true for all organizations, not just restaurants. After spending a month in Phoenix, Arizona, being hosted by Restaurant Systems Pro CEO Fred Langley, I got to experience firsthand Fred's desire to serve. It all started when I got there. Fred gave me the keys to his house and to his office building. When Fred leaves work every day, I witnessed him go coach one of his two sons baseball teams. And when Fred's neighbor lost power when they were hosting their son's birthday party, Fred offered to host the party at his house. Eric, why are you sharing this? Because how you do one thing is how you do everything. And believe me when I say that the desire to serve extends to Fred's restaurant clients. There are no secrets or shortcuts to life or restaurant success. There's only discipline, hard work, and the desire to do the right thing. Fred and his team at Restaurant Systems Pro are here to serve you with the systems and resources to be more disciplined so you can do the hard thing, which nine times out of 10, is the right thing. With Restaurant Systems Pro, you get accounting systems, budgeting systems, costing Systems, purchasing systems, inventory management systems, labor management systems, training systems, and the systems to create and implement checklists. On top of all this, Restaurant Systems Pro also has their own native general ledger, and they're in the process of launching their own pos, which they are so appropriately naming serve. And you know what? If you don't want to change your pos, that's absolutely fine, because Restaurant Systems Pro integrates with all major POS providers. To learn more, head over to Restaurant Unstoppable.com RSP and you will find a link to schedule a demo with their sales team, a demo I personally did with Restaurant Systems Pro CEO Fred Langley and all 18 of our testimonials that we've recorded since the beginning of Restaurant stoppable. Again, that's restaurant unstoppable.com RSP. Right. I mean, back to more human. Human is like how we left off in the last conversation, I think, at the core of business and, like, you know, like the company you work for.

[Sean Finter]

Right, right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

In the word company, it's the people. Like the company you have.

[Sean Finter]

Yeah.

[Eric Cacciatore]

The people you're with. It's all about relationships, and it's all about how you make people feel. Danny Myers talks about enlightened hospitality, where it's like that idea of generosity and giving. But as to the people who are closest to you, your staff.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right. Yeah.

[Eric Cacciatore]

You said in the last conversation that the number one reason why restaurants fail is because of how they make people feel.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right. Right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

So it sounds like your focus in this book is. Is on, like, again, systemizing Hospitality is what you said, but, like, can you give us, like, I know the book isn't out yet, and I don't want to get you in trouble making false promises or maybe things might change. But, like, what is that? What is that? Like, the core. Is that the. The first book, Systemizing Hospitality.

[Sean Finter]

Yeah. And that one doesn't have a name yet, but it. It. That's the. That's the book that'll come out second. The napkinomics book will come out first because we're almost there with that.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Is that more in court? Is that. It sounds like that is more about, like, how to build the culture, if you know, what. What are we fighting for? What makes us great?

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

You know, so, like, what are the big takeaways there in that book?

[Sean Finter]

You know, I think that when I work with clients to. To figure that out, and it's interesting, like, a lot of the clients that I work with have been in business 10 years, 20 years, 30 years. So, you know, my early Assumption was, everyone's got this worked out, they'll just write it on the page. And it's amazing that 99% of people spend days, weeks, sometimes months figuring these things out. And, you know, in some cases, what was true when they opened is no longer true.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

They've just got older, they evolved and so on and so forth. A break in partnership, that changes things. Like, there's a lot of reasons why, but to get re centered on this. And so that's like your anchor point. And then you go back to the beginning and said, are we hiring people that could truly breathe life into this?

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

That could take it, take it on and make it their own. And then all the way through, like looking at, you know, I focus with clients on a hundred day induction program for staff. And in that hundred days, they're learning the seven or eight or nine things that make your brand unique. And the hundred days is also the final stage of the interview. You're getting paid, you're on the team. But if you can't do those things, like, you know, what's your threshold for keeping people on that? You know, we've all run interviews before, but I've made a lot of mistakes in interviews, right. I've hired people that two weeks later I'm like, who the hell hired this guy?

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right?

[Sean Finter]

They say, oh, you did.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right?

[Sean Finter]

So it's like looking at the entire life cycle right through to the end, you know, I'm amazed that most bars and restaurants really don't do exit interviews with their staff. They don't do exit surveys with their staff. I'm like, you know how much institutional knowledge they have. Well, what if they lash out? What if of so what? You know, disregard it like back to.

[Eric Cacciatore]

What your daughter was afraid of? Fear.

[Sean Finter]

That's right, yeah, yeah. So just ask them. And you know, the one question I love in the exit interview said, hey, if this was your place and you had the power to make any change in the business, what would you change? And nobody says, you know, upgrading the furniture or new playlists. It's always about the human element. You know, if you only listened more, if you only, you know, I read one the other day and they said, you know, the disrespect of our time by never having the schedule out on time doesn't allow me to be a good mother. You know what I mean? I was like, wow. And this, the person that owned the business said, this will never happen again. One woman had the courage, but first they had the courage to ask, right, right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

I mean, there's so many different directions we could go, man. What you just, we just dropped on us. You kind of mentioned. I think you were a little ahead of the conf. Maybe it was during the pre interview chat. Nick, you know where we're going if it's so much about the human element of things. I think it's harder and harder today to feel valued, to feel seen. We literally don't need each other. We don't. We live in a world where the government and the marketplace and like we, we just like we. It's more cush than ever before. We're in a comfort crisis right now. Yeah. Do you believe it's harder to be seen today than ever before?

[Sean Finter]

I believe that. Let me start with the fact that most donors and most leaders in our industry I don't think have enough focus on making people feel seen and making them feel valued and important. Straight through to the staff who the younger generation now grew up sending a 10 word text instead of having a face to face conversation, you know. So I think there's a lot of factors at play. Having said that, I think that as a bar, restaurant, cafe owner right now, this, there's been no better opportunity.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

We have something that humans crave in general. They don't get it often, but when they do get it, that business gets rewarded tremendously.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

There's in the little town of Annapolis that we're in right now, the best restaurant in town I almost never go to because they don't make me or my guests feel a certain way. We go to the third or fourth best restaurant.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

Best food, all of that because of the way that we're made to feel there. And I've got to know the owners and the staff and they really do care and it's, it's, it's a massive difference. And they get rewarded with more than hundreds of millions of dollars of extra business a year than they otherwise would have.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah, I. So as we like move into the future and technology continues to progress and we can do more with less, like, you know, AI, I think was a conversation that came up earlier today. Like do we. Is. Is AI kind of replacing the need that we have for each other to be like, I don't know, like there's just so many things that like AI is going to replace in terms of like jobs.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right?

[Eric Cacciatore]

But like that job that having that something that I'm good at, that I can contribute to an organization, organization and be a part of something bigger. We're going to lose those opportunities, right? Or do you. Do you disagree with that?

[Sean Finter]

You know, I think I've read a lot. I'm fascinated with, you know, the age of automation and Henry Ford and the assembly line. Here's the, here's the truth. You know, robots, for the most part make cars. Now. There's more people working in the automotive industry in the US now than there were at that time.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

Because now instead of, you know, 2, 300 components to a car, there's 150 in a seat.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Right?

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

Different springs, different heaters, different sensors and all that sort of thing. I think with AI, you know, learning to use it to your benefit and, and getting through, you know, I'll give you one example that most bar and restaurant owners that I know that I've worked with have an incredible story, right? They're just terrified. They're not good writers. They're not comfortable speaking into a microphone, all that sort of stuff. Well, AI is the biggest gift they're ever going to have. Talk into your notepad, have it come out, teach it your voice, you know, have it, you know, spruce it up a little bit and get it out to the market.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

I think that communication is king. Storytellers win in this industry. And so that's just a great example of not only, you know, talking directly to your, your, your guests and your future guests, talking to your future employees.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

Talking to your community members about who you are and what you're doing and why you, why you think it's important to be a hub in your community. So I think that's all important. Then you look at how you can utilize it for staff training.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right?

[Sean Finter]

So we took, I was working on this last week, a client prepared, like, said, hey, here's what we're gonna. Here's our old manual. Basically, they wanted to modernize it. And I said, okay, let's run it through AI and we sent a quick text. He sent a quick text out to his staff and said, who are your three favorite voices in the market? You know, whether they're influencers, comedians, whatever else. We looked at the collective list, picked a voice from there, told AI to talk in that voice, make it fun, make it interesting. Said, you know, what else do you need to know? Tell me a story about this and a story about that. And then we used a AI bought to be the face of that video. I mean, their training material now is better than what I could have done for a public company when I used to create material for public companies with a team of 10 people. And we did it in an hour. And a half.

[Eric Cacciatore]

It's weird. It's like I hear that that is a huge asset to teams and that what an individual can do today is more than a single individual could do or a small team could ever do in the past. Past.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

But are we eliminating the specialists?

[Sean Finter]

I think the, the. Yeah, to some degree, some specialists, but I think we're creating some new ones as well.

[Eric Cacciatore]

We don't know what that looks like yet until it plays out. Right? Yeah, yeah. And I'm hopeful for that. I love that mindset. I think that's good. What, you know, I think part of the argument with AI is that it removes a lot of the tactical technician work.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

And it creates more work for the creatives freedom. Like it creates more space for the, the freedom of creativity.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right, right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

And I hear that too. But don't the tactical people need purpose?

[Sean Finter]

They do, but this is this transition from the age of automation.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

What did those folks do? They went into different jobs. In many cases higher paying jobs, more pleasurable jobs for them rather than being on the line.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

You know, all of that.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah.

[Sean Finter]

So you know, I'm already seeing like friends in, in certain industries, like you know, just, it's wiping out certain segments employment. You think about industries like accountancy for example.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

Accountancy is just a series of pathways and rules and regulations.

[Eric Cacciatore]

That's the thing that AI is best at.

[Sean Finter]

You can't tell me that any human is going to be able to outperform AI in a year's time. It'll just ask you all the questions. And it's connected live to the government database. Constantly updating. No accountants plugged into the government database 24 7.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah, yeah. I mean I think only time will tell. We just have to see how it plays out. But at the same time it's like to your point, I think you mentioned this earlier. I think there's gonna be more opportunity in the hospitality industry than ever before as, as people are being replaced in more corporate environments. Like desk jobs are probably those, those types of jobs. Like any data driven job is going to go away first and then the restaurant industry. The industry that's probably been the most up against it in terms of trying to find people to come work. Right. Like where are all these people gonna go? They're gonna go back to the most human industry out there. I, I hope that this AI helps us become human again.

[Sean Finter]

Yeah.

[Eric Cacciatore]

You know, because I think it's what we're learning is back to human. To human. What we're learning in order to be happy in it, like, we've learned a lot about, like, what we put into our body in terms of. Terms of like, food. You know, like, we're like, we're like, we're looking at food as fuel now more than ever before. But also we're realizing, we're starting to realize that the most, the best thing that we can put into our body is food that is grown in the most natural way.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right? Right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

So, like, I think we're going to see the farm industry improve. More and more people are going to put money into holistic, responsible farming because that's the best thing for our body bodies. But on the. The human side, it's also just being seen, right. Like, coming together, being like we are so disconnected in the most connected world. And I think that as people learn more about what we need in terms of psychology to be happy, it's gonna. The only thing you can do is sit down in the same space with somebody.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Like that is the best thing for you, is to sit down and have a conversation with somebody. As we learn, like, what. What are you thinking at? I'm saying this.

[Sean Finter]

Well, you know, as. As I mentioned, my youngest is now the, the fourth and final of my kids to, to come into the hospitality industry. And you may be surprised how many people said to me, well, with all, you know, why would you want your kids in this industry?

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right?

[Sean Finter]

Like, that's. I get that from a lot of people. And I said, you tell me another industry that they're going to learn, the things they're going to learn here.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right? Right.

[Sean Finter]

And I believe, I believe I became a millionaire because of all my years bartending. I just didn't have the money yet. Like, I'd learned the things I needed to do to be wealthy. And the three things I hope most for my kids are the three things that I try to teach anyone that works in this industry. So the first is, the first thing that you do and you learn in hospitality is to see another person and be seen by that person to create instant rapport when another human being.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

My kids will tell you, I've never been in an elevator before, sat down beside someone on a plane where I'm not able to create instant rapport.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

It's a wonderful gift. I've had the opportunity to practice tens of thousands of times now.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

And it's a wonderful playing field to be able to do that on. And then the next level in that is to be able to please them, to make them smile.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

So I say to my kids, like, try to do that with everyone. And it takes something different for every individual. You have to read them and watch their nonverbal cues. So the second thing that they're learning in these restaurants is to sell with dignity. And for me, sales is being a good steward of the opportunity. So if my daughters and my son get a chance to say, hey, I know this portfolio. I know all the options available in this business. I know the community pretty well. I can take care of you and take you on a journey that you couldn't be on on your own.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

So that's what sales is. Never selling someone more than what they want or need, but opening up opportunities that they wouldn't otherwise know about. And then thirdly, the marketing piece of it is giving someone a reason to return.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

So that's. That speaks to creating a future relationship, a promise to do something together in the future if you come back and see us again. And I ask anyone who says, how do you let your kids work in this industry? I say, you tell me another job where they can learn those three things at 14 or 16 or 20 and be given the opportunity to practice thousands of times.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah. I mean, so I want to read back to make sure I got the three specific things. The first thing is to see another person and be seen. And what builds off of that is not just to see them, but to please them and to make them smile.

[Sean Finter]

And to build instant rapport.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah, and to build rapport. And then the second thing is to sell with dignity. And then the third thing is marketing.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Dive more into marketing.

[Sean Finter]

Yeah. So this is the big, you know, wonder for me in every restaurant I go into, you know, every bar, going to 99 of them. You know, you're. You're there. You're there with your. Your guests, your family, whoever. You're enjoying the experience. Check comes and it's over.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

It's just like, now I'm invisible. And you almost feel like they're just waiting for the table or getting through, you know, the money and the time I see people spending trying to get people to come into the restaurant, I say, why don't you spend a little bit of time when they're right in front of you, asking them to come back.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

And so with all of my clients we work on, you know, let's look at the four core constituencies of people to come here. What events do you have coming up or what changes in the. In the business offer do you have coming that appeal to these people? And we could tie them to something in the future. But Even if not, even if you're, Even if you don't have that ready or you don't have many things happening right now? You know, chivalry is a great reason if someone genuinely walks you to the door, thanks you for coming, compliments you on the way out, says something to make you laugh.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

Like that's enough for people to go, I'm going to choose where I'm going to spend my money and time and I'm going to go back to restaurant three rather than number one place in town Down.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah. Are you using it or do you follow any technology that helps with this that like, can like. Maybe. I know, I think the best thing you can do is four walls, right? Four walls. Marketing while you're physically there, that's the biggest impact you're going to have. But are there other tools that can help with this that we can leverage in terms of like the digital world? Does this spill over beyond the four walls or does this happen digitally too?

[Sean Finter]

Yeah, you know, it's. Well, I'll give you one example of what I think are one of the number one reasons why somebody decides on a place being their place, their local, their favorite, and that's at some point, somehow they suddenly felt like an insider. That is so valuable to people. Right to. This is my place. And if we sit in this room together, the room we're sitting in now, there are at least 50 things in this room that have massive meaning to me. And, and I would be able to ask you two or three questions to figure out and then connect you to two or three of those things and then they'd have master's meaning to you. I leave the room, your friend comes in and now you're the hero. You have the insider information and you're making her the hero.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right, Right.

[Sean Finter]

So that's, that's one. And to talk about technology, we were in New York on Friday in New York City, Allie and I, and we had lunch with a client with Jack McGarry at Dead Rabbit. And man, you walk into one of his rooms and there are 300 things up on the wall. So what we were working on was 2 minute, 4 minute and 8 minute connection. So if 8 minutes quiet with a gas, you got time a bartender or a server or a host or doorman could walk out in the room and connect you to the story of Ireland, Jack's family, the struggles of this, that bands, friends that are, that have passed, that are up on the wall. You have two minutes while you're on the bar and they could do it from this place. So we're kind of creating a schematic and videos where he tell the story, and then we're using AI to kind of connect that room. And also when no one's available to use a lens that they can go around the room and hear him telling the story about why that artifact so important or what the meaning of this is.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah, that's cool. I mean, so many little nuggets being dropped on us right now, too. And we. We kind of. You brought it back to that first thing, seeing other people and using the physical space to. To create connections.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

And to make them feel like an insider. And in terms of selling with dignity, too, I think the word. I think generally speaking, selling is a dirty, like, people associate it with, like, a dirty thing you don't want to sell people. But when I think of selling, like, to me, when you. It's one of the reasons, you know, you mentioned something earlier today, like this or I brought back to the service is like, if you want to do epic things, you got to do epic shit. But also, like, just. Just this idea of, like, focusing on, like, doing what you really want to do. And, like, for me, what I want to do is reconnect with people like you, right? And reconnect with the products and services that I believe in, because people like you are referring them to me, right? And going deeper into these things, these people I believe in. And when you believe in something, is it selling? Is it. Or is it serving? Like, hey, like, get this. Like, what do you like? Oh, well, we have this thing on the menu that, like, you're gonna love this if you like those things or, oh, you have this problem. Well, I have a solution. And it's gonna make your life so much easier here, right? When you believe in the thing that you're quote, unquote, selling, is it selling or is it persuading? Is it serving?

[Sean Finter]

Yeah, I think you're. You're right when you. You hit on that, you know, for selling, that even the word sales to some people is a dirty word.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Like, you think of a car salesman, right? They don't. They're just trying to win.

[Sean Finter]

Yeah.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Not make sure you win.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

And so this is where we start when we bring people in the industry, we talk to them about, you know, their relationship with the word sales. And for most people, it is that. That it's the. It's the car salesman. It's a pushy telemarketer that's calling during dinner. It's whoever in their life has has inconvenienced them. And when you talk to somebody about that and how that made them feel, and you know, I said, what do you think the purpose was of them doing it that way? And they said, so they win and I lose.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

But I said, think about this industry. I said, that can happen here too.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right?

[Sean Finter]

You could, you know, I hate the term upselling. It just means like we want to, you know, if I'm in your restaurant, I'm looking at a wine list, I'm looking at a hundred dollar bottle of wine, you can see where my eyes are. And you move me over to a $300 bottle of wine, like no one wins there. I feel uncomfortable. I don't want a $300 bottle of wine with my dinner.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

But I said, imagine if these people love wine. They don't get out very often. They, you know, and you have something that they want and they're asking the right questions about it. And now you're leading them and you're sharing with them, them something that you know is very valuable to them, that they wouldn't otherwise know about unless you told them.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

And the non. Or the, the non monetary sales as well. Like I, I really believe that every cocktail and every dish of food tastes better with a story.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

But you're giving them that, you're, you're providing that to them on top and now they're aware of something new. You're the steward of that experience.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Right?

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

You're building layers onto the experience. To me, you know, sales is we have to realize we're retailers.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

We are selling something to somebody when they, they come into us. What they buy is really up to them. It's just being a great steward and guiding towards good choices.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah, I'm happy we went into this. I mean, those three things came up in our first conversation together. I think this was the, the playbook, the hospitality playbook. Is that where it came up? Does that sound familiar?

[Sean Finter]

Yeah, that's right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

So seeing another person and being seen sell within with dignity and marketing. And maybe I'm paying too much a close, too much close attention to this. But seeing another person but also being seen. Can you tap more into the idea of being seen? Why is that? Why did you make it, make it a point to say being seen too?

[Sean Finter]

Well, you know, I think that you look at some of the great leaders in our industry from the past. Ritz Carlton's a good example. You know, they have a card in their wallet that everyone has to carry to work every day with Their core values on it, their mission and everything. And it says, their opening statement is, we are ladies and gentlemen, serving ladies and gentlemen.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

We're equal, but we've chosen to be at service to them.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

It's a meaning. We have to maintain our dignity and we're not putting people up on a pedestal. We have just chosen this line of work because we love it. It gives us energy, it makes us. It fulfills our purpose. And I. I think that hospitality becomes empty or false when it's all about the guest. Like, to me, it's about a relationship now. It's a lot more about them than us. That's what we signed up for. But, you know, my best hospitality interactions, and I was in bars for 20 years of my life, were when it was reciprocal.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

When I had. When I developed the instant rapport and then developed a relationship with that person over time and connected that person to the brand, to my colleagues, to my boss, to other people in the room. Right. You can't do that if you're entirely subservient.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

You have to be seen as a person. You have to be seen as someone who's generous and giving, but there has to be some back and forth in order to develop that relationship.

[Eric Cacciatore]

100. Yeah, man. Great, great stuff. Getting back into that. Thank you. You mentioned something else earlier that really kind of resonated with me. I want to go deeper into it when. Back to the napkinomics, when people come to you and they're trying to figure out their values and figure out their identity. Identity. Like what. How do you steer them? Like, what does that. That look like? We're getting off. We're kind of going down a whole different rabbit hole now. But, like, what if. If I was a client of yours and I kind of. I feel like you work with some big names in the industry, I think. Is it safe to say that a lot of these people kind of have that identity by the time they come to you?

[Sean Finter]

You know, I think that they do kind of informally, which makes it tough to really develop your business and really scale. You know, we all have a brand, we all have values that we're operating, or if they're not formalized, and let me make the distinction, you know, you look at a company like Enron, when it went under, there are four values were, you know, integrity, transparency, blah, blah, blah. All right, Right. It's bathroom art that you put. Put something up. So, you know, when I take values, for example, you know, anyone that has more than four or five, I don't Know six, if your staff can't remember them, they can't honor them.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

So you want to start small. You want to build up. But I'll say to my clients, what gets you hired here? Like, what is it that you really value in somebody that comes on here? And you do that enough. Ask them. You start to drill down, and you'll start to see then on the flip side, what gets people fired here.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

So that's your anti value. Right. They're trampling on that value. And then we use three litmus tests for ensuring that it truly is a core value and not just an aspiration of the individual or of the business. First off, would you not hire someone who you thought was an excellent candidate because they didn't possess this value or aspire to it? Would you pass on that candidate?

[Eric Cacciatore]

Okay.

[Sean Finter]

Secondly is, would you fire your top performer for repeatedly violating that core value? And then thirdly, would you take a serious financial hit to protect that value if it doesn't tick all three of those boxes? It's an aspirational goal. It's not a core value.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah, 100%. So I'm gonna share my core values with me, and I'm gonna get selfish here for some coaching on my core value to see where there's room. So they are. You know, actually, the. The first one is the newest one. We have freedom, or we're in pursuit of freedom. We have integrity. We are students. We are educators. We are collaborators. We are communicators. We have fun. So it's a lot of core values.

[Sean Finter]

Yeah.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Right. Want me to go through those again?

[Sean Finter]

Yeah. One more time.

[Eric Cacciatore]

We have or. We are in pursuit of freedom. We are students or. Now I'm going out of order. See, this isn't good.

[Sean Finter]

We are.

[Eric Cacciatore]

We are pursuit of freedom. We have integrity. We are students. We are educators. We are collaborators. We're communicators. We have fun. Okay, so you can sell. So I. For me, the reason why those are my core values. I took a personality assessment. When I talk about freedom, like, I've learned that the most important thing to me, my life, my biggest core value, according to these tests that I've taken, is that I love freedom. Freedom of purpose, freedom of relationship. I want to be able to do what I want to do with who I want to do it. And I. And I think that most people feel that way. I think we have to prioritize that. When I say that we have integrity, we do what we say we're going to do.

[Sean Finter]

Yeah.

[Eric Cacciatore]

If you put it out into the universe, you better follow through with it.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right?

[Eric Cacciatore]

We are students. We're always learning. We are educators. We are always teaching what we've learned. We're pulling people up with us as we are growing. We're help, we're bringing people with us. We're paying it forward. We are collaborators because no matter how good we are at, at doing the thing we are good at, like, we can't do it alone. If you want to go forward, you have to have people who are good where you're street, where you're, where you're weak. You need collaborators. We are communicators because once you find your people, you constantly have to say, are we going to the same place? Like where, like, where are we going? Is it the same place? Do we want the same? Are we communicating?

[Sean Finter]

Yeah.

[Eric Cacciatore]

And then I think the last one is we have fun.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

And the reason for that is like, what's the point if you're not having a good time?

[Sean Finter]

Yeah.

[Eric Cacciatore]

So they mean something to me. And there's a story there, there.

[Sean Finter]

Yeah. So I, I'll, I'll feed back a couple of things about your value. So firstly, the more values you have, they are true values that you're going to live by these and, and people will die by these. You know, the, the more you're narrowing the pool, right? Like you're, you know, if you had 50 values and someone had to fit into that, it'd be very hard to find an individual to work for you or with you. So that's first, secondly is, you know, it's, it's attaching the meaning to the words is a difficult thing. So I'll give you an example outside of your values and I'll come back to yours. You know, people often say, you know, we're like a family here. We're family. And once I ran this roundtable and asked the staff today, they picked some of their all star staff to be at this table and figure these things out together. And three of the five people, when they were describing what family meant to them, had tears in their eyes because they said, if this was like my family, I wouldn't be here. It's painful in my family. It's awful. My father was abusive. My mom was apologetic for the life that we didn't have. My brother left home at a young age, like. And so for the owner, it was like, oh, yeah, family's a good thing. My family's a good thing, but theirs isn't. So that association pushes people away with yours, you know, your association with fun Is whatever it is to you. You know, you might have. Someone says, oh, you want us to have fun? I like to get blind drunk and kick over your equipment at the end of the day and act like a rock star. Well, you're like, well, that's not fun to me.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

So it's just making sure that the association is universal enough. And then the, you know, it's a storytelling behind it. When you explain, well, what does fun mean to you when you say that's.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Part of your value value, which is fun. I mean, I, I want to be able to enjoy the work I'm doing. Right. If you're not getting joy out of the work you're doing, if not, if you don't get excited to do the thing, like, I genuinely have fun meeting strangers and learning about them.

[Sean Finter]

Yeah.

[Eric Cacciatore]

You know, so, like, do I think everybody would have fun doing that? No. But my mission is to inspire, empower, and transform the industry. Maybe the thing that you have fun doing, you know, this is why we collaborate. The thing that you have fun doing will help us get to where we're going doing. But it's your version of fun as long as we enjoy the thing we're doing. If you're not having fun here, then let me help you find the. Help you find the lane that will make you have fun doing what you enjoy. And yeah, the reality is, like, it's not always fun. You have to do the hard thing too sometimes.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right?

[Eric Cacciatore]

But that's. So we can do the fun thing.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right?

[Sean Finter]

When you. When you look at core values, you know, there's. There's a definite value to the owner of the business to. To the business itself. But when that core value connects with the customer or with the guest, that's where it's really valuable. So in my restaurant group, for example, our. Our first core value in slang was you gotta wanna. And then people say, you gotta wanna what? You gotta want to be here. You gotta want to be at service of other people. You gotta want to be a good teammate. You gotta want to, you know, whatever it is. And, and my customers would say, man, I've never come in somewhere where people, like, they all seem like they really want to be here. Number one question we were asked is, does that person have equity here? Is that manager? Is it one of the partners here? People took it on like it was their own because they wanted to do that. And then how do you honor that value? Every single year, on their anniversary of starting with the business, they had to re up for another year by filling Out a two page form that said, how are you going to be better in, in a year's time by staying here? And you know, someone who's halfway up in the totem pole in our group, a B plus player hasn't cracked the A group yet, is going to be an A plus player down the road. So I said, would you be happier, would you be happier going into work there where you're looked up to and you're, you know, you're. So each of the values, if you're, if your customers or your guests can feel it, I think that's where it really starts to triangulate between the business and the, the ownership and the guest.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Got it. So with, relative to the values I shared with you, you think I'm missing an element of the connectivity with the, the end user, the listener?

[Sean Finter]

I, I'm just, I, I would just test that it matters to the end listener. You know, is this something you're looking for? Because you, you just mentioned when you talked about having fun, you love meeting new people and doing all that. Well, for a lot of people, that'd be terrifying to do every day.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right, right.

[Sean Finter]

So like, you know, it's hard to kind of craft the language of a value on the fly, but you know, that element of what you do is very rare and you're really good at it.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Thank you.

[Sean Finter]

And you know, so that might be part of the replica. Rather than have fun, it's like, hey, this is something that's unique and special and human that we do. And we get better every interview, we get better every year that goes by. But you got to have people that, that see that as a real benefit to get to do that every day. I get to, to do that. Rather than in the beginning, maybe I have to do that.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah. So when I was forming the core values, I was trying to really think, like, what are the biggest lessons I've learned? And like if I want to pay forward to my listeners, like if you want to grow and be successful, you know, it starts like the, the, you know, at the really core I think is, you know, we have integrity. We do what we say. We're gonna, we just start back to how you started with your talking to your daughter, coaching your daughter. Like, we're always fearful. Integrity, like if you want to do it, like just take action, go do it. That's integrity. It's, it's all the things that like, are kind of like internalized. Like just do the damn thing. Just start.

[Sean Finter]

Yeah.

[Eric Cacciatore]

And then if you want to be the best you're always learning. You know, it's kind of like the seven habits of highly effective people always sharpen. Sharpen the saw, right? And it's not enough that you are constantly growing everything that you're learning and you're applying, you're recreating yourself and others, you're pulling others up with you, Right? And then back to the whole, like, you need to go further together, you get to collaborate, and you need systems in place to communicate.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

All these different people that come together. So I think, like, at the core of what I'm trying to do, like, and what I'm trying to create is, like, those things, like, you have to do what you say you do. You're always learning, you're always lifting people up, you're always going further together, and you're always communicating. Because if you don't communicate, like. So I think that I could probably narrow it down to five things for core values. But is that core value or is that a process?

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

And is it, you know, put it through that test. Would you fire someone for not doing those things on a regular basis? Would you not hire someone who. Who hasn't proven to you that they have been learning on a regular basis and maybe they haven't had the opportunity or didn't think they had the opportunity?

[Eric Cacciatore]

What were those things? I think I wrote them down. Would you not hire somebody if they had, or would you not hire if they have or don't have the value? Would you fire.

[Sean Finter]

So number. Number one is, would you pass on a top candidate because they don't possess or aspire to.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Got it.

[Sean Finter]

A particular value? Number two is, would you terminate somebody, your top performer, who repeatedly tramples on that value? And then thirdly, would you take a serious financial hit to protect it?

[Eric Cacciatore]

Got it. Yeah. I think I have to do a workshop on my values, man.

[Sean Finter]

Yeah. And, you know.

[Eric Cacciatore]

So you agree?

[Sean Finter]

Yeah. And in the restaurant environment, the bar and restaurant environment, step one is articulating getting them down on paper. Step two is testing them against those filters. And then step three is bring them to life. It's not enough to have a poster on the wall or something on your website. I give you two ways that we work with clients to bring these things to life. Number one is, you know, issuing those values on a card. So the owner, let's say, has a card, walks into her business, and the day bartender's on, it's pretty quiet. And they say, hey, you know, here's this value card. Which of these resonates most with you? And she Says being brilliant at the basics, like, this is a place where people take very seriously the groundwork to do, to do all the advanced things that we do. But everyone really focuses here and say, okay, great. Who's a person that really exemplifies that to you? And they'll tell you. And they say, tell me why? Why do you think that? Why do you think that's a person? And then they tell you a story, and they're reinforcing it in their own mind. Then you leave from there. If that person's on the property, or if not, you make a note, and next time they're in, say, hey, you know what, Sarah? I was blown away that I was talking to David, and of all the people that work here, you know, I asked him about a value, and a person exemplifies that. He said this, and here's why he said that.

[Eric Cacciatore]

That.

[Sean Finter]

And so suddenly it's the story building upon the story, and a person going, oh, my God, Like, I can't believe someone's recognized me for that. So that's one way. Another is at a pre shift, right. Have your value. So if you have five or eight, one per month. And then do that at pre shift.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah.

[Sean Finter]

And say, hey, who in this circle that you're standing with right now exemplifies this value? Yeah, they talk about it. And I tell you, when you celebrate somebody in public, public, it has a 10x factor, right. They're like, wow, okay, that's cool. What you celebrate, you get more of.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah, you kind of remind me with Hurt Schultz, who you brought up the. The Ritz Carlton earlier today, and what they do with their standards of excellence every shift, they. They go over all their standards of excellence and they. They find an example of somebody who exhibited that standard of excellence, and they go back. I think there's 26 standards or something like that. Once they cycle through every standard, they go back, back, and they start from the scratch. But you do that with your values, too, or you do that with somebody living out the mission. So we kind of went through a cool exercise on where you gave me some feedback on how to find the values. Those lip. Those elliptinous tests. What about mission?

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Where do you.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Do you have any thoughts on mission? And when it comes to, like, trying to find your mission or find the words to communicate your mission.

[Sean Finter]

Yeah, you know, the mission. Some of the stuff. Stuff you can't do, you know, by a joint assembly of your staff and everything else, like the mission of a business, of a lot of businesses is very Personal, you know, and in talking about where we're going, but how we got here and why we're here in the first place. And I'll give you an example. When I was written my business plan in London, moved to Sydney, and by design, I went and found people who wanted to either were new at owning bars and restaurants or who were looking to get into it like I was. And so there was two other guys that I met, and we'd meet up once a week, and we talked about our mission. And it was. I thought I was doing something wrong because my mission or, you know, my why and why I was there was so different than theirs.

[Eric Cacciatore]

What was yours?

[Sean Finter]

Well, I'll tell you what one of theirs was and compare it to mine. So this guy was like, you know, he wanted to be recognized. He loved cocktails, he loved. He loved being seen. He loved building up staff and building these drinks. Wanted to win all the awards and everything else, you know, mine, I. I felt like a misfit. My whole life, I was told by teachers, by people that love me, you know, try to protect me from myself, that you should submit to a life of construction. Nothing wrong with construction. I'm just not very handy.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right, right. And.

[Sean Finter]

And so my mission was to shed that label.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

And. And, And I wanted to build a stage where other people could come and find out who they were.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

And what I found along the way is I'm still a misfit, and I kind of like it. Yeah, right. It's. It's not. It's not a bad thing. It. It is what it is. I was in the minority that didn't fit into the puzzle, but that's not a bad thing. That's where a lot of great art comes from. That's where a lot of great stories come from. So I said, you know, I'm going to build this stage. And I used to say to people, if you've ever been told by a teacher, by your father, by an employer that you're nobody, you're nothing, you're not going anywhere, and you want a chance to prove yourself. I've got a stage here where you can find out who you are and step in your. In your potential.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Was that stage the restaurant?

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Okay.

[Sean Finter]

Yeah. Yeah. I. You know, to this day, I like to cook as much as the next guy. I like cocktails, I like spirits, I like music. But that's not my passion.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Okay.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

This episode is made possible by me. M is a digital recipe platform that helps you stay creative, build profitable menus, and Nail food execution at scale. Consistency builds trust with your guest and your staff. No more messy spreadsheets or scattered systems. Whether they want to admit it or not, your team loves systems because systems equals peace of mind, because we all want to know what the job done right looks like. And Mies paints the picture of perfection and is the one source of truth for your entire team. By locking in recipes in training before service starts, Mees makes sure every dish is consistent, every team member is aligned, and every location runs like clockwork. So when the report rolls in after the sale, they tell the story you're after. Higher profits, better margins, and repeat guests. It's time to take control of your profitability. Learn more at www.getmes.com unstoppable. That's G-E-T-M E-E-Z.com unstoppable. So you didn't feel like this was enough when you were sitting down with these three other guys or these other guys? You said that was.

[Sean Finter]

I just felt like I was doing something wrong. They're like, well, are you going to tell somebody that? And what kind of misfits do you think are going to show up? But, I mean, we had, when I sold the group, we had 396 misfits that work for me. I mean, some of the best people I've ever met in my life. And people showed up in droves. And you know what? Most of them didn't even look like how I thought they'd look.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right?

[Sean Finter]

Like, yeah, we had some folks before tattoos on necks were fashionable. We had some folks that had that and Mohawks and everything else, but most people just look like random regular people that felt that they had been compromised and passed over. And I said, this is your place, this is your time. Come here.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah, I think those people do really well in the hospitality field.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

I think a lot of the people who come through the, the school system, the, you know, your stereotypical school system, are people who are good employees. You know, generally in terms of like the corporate setting, like, they're good at doing something. But the, the hospitality industry, the skill set that you need to be good in hospitality, the social, emotional, intelligence of like, like listening and entertaining and like being personal. Not necessarily the technician, but more like the, you know, as I'm saying this, what are you, what do you, what are you hearing? Like, what's going through your mind?

[Sean Finter]

You know, the, the industry is, is frowned upon by by many. It's ironic that people spend their, their time and money in our industry, but they Think that the people that work there are stuck. My last year of full time bartending in London, I made more than my father made as a banker.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Wow.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right?

[Sean Finter]

Like you can make a lot of money, you meet some great people if you keep your head right and you don't get caught up in the lifestyle. And then when I got into the leadership in this industry, like I thought, man, what an opportunity to help develop other people. And first to be that candle that lights another candle. Like I'd hire people who I saw something in that maybe didn't even see that in themselves.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

My therapist says that I'm trying to go back and rescue my 12 year old self.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

And maybe I am, but I've had hundreds of people work with me and gave them more responsibility than they deserved, helped them, built them up and you know, as I was helping to, to, to build their confidence, they were building my business. Yeah, right. Instead of skipping over them and, you know, trying to touch every customer or be on the floor. You can't do that when you have eight restaurants.

[Eric Cacciatore]

No. Yeah. So we didn't really get into this in the last time we, we spoke. I mean, you kind of alluded that for you, the restaurant industry wasn't the thing. You know, being an owner wasn't the thing. But you, you built this platform where you're able to bring together these misfits. You're living your mission. What wasn't there for you? What were you missing?

[Sean Finter]

You know, what I realized is that I was, what I loved was the build of people, of businesses. And I'm still this way today. Then I get very bored. Right. I'm not a gardener.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

Just keeping what I have, like you, you know, I, I'd want to do the next thing. And I thought, well, is this just me being impatient and everything else? But I love the puzzle and the challenge and that's what I love about coaching. Like it's the best of all worlds. I get to work on the things that I love and help people in areas that I, that I'm good at and I have to do any of the other stuff.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah.

[Sean Finter]

And you know, in parallel with that, and I'm always careful to point out to people, is that as much as I had a handful of things worked out on one side, I was also left living a very unhealthy lifestyle as a restaurateur. I was, I was young and immature and I was £300. I was drinking a lot of Red Bull. I was drinking red wine at night to go to sleep. I Was that was a badge of honor to work 100 hours a week. All these things that will put you in a grave. I was on the, on the track for. So, you know, I started young and in that regard I had a lot of great business mentors. I just didn't have great mentors unless living a healthy life.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Man.

[Eric Cacciatore]

You know, when I got here today, I asked, you know, is there anything you want to talk about? And you know, one thing I want to start talking more about on the show is kind of like, you know, you're a repeat guest on the show. So we've, we've shared your story and again, that was episode 1027, if you want to check out the full episode. But I know you have some opinions, you're pretty vocal about where we, where we're going. Right. So it's like one part, you know, what's your perspective, what's your story, How'd you get here, where are you today and where are we going?

[Sean Finter]

So where, where are we going as an industry?

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah, like, how do we not. I think we're, we're guilty as a industry, as a society of being reactive. We're not very proactive. We're generally short sighted. We do the thing we have to do right now to survive at our own detriment. We don't think about like, where, how we're, where do we want to be? Like, what's the future we want? How do we reverse engineer that as a society?

[Sean Finter]

Yeah. I think getting excited about the opportunity again of hospitality. You know, we've talked about technology and how much that's changed. Instead of talking to each other, we text to each other. The pandemic, you know, on one hand, allowed a lot of people to work from home. And that's a good thing for some and for many. But on the other hand, a lot of people are lonely. You know, that, that forced interaction, going to the office, talking to the person that works across from you, being in the meeting, you know, hanging out 10 minutes afterwards, going to, grabbing lunch with somebody. And I think that just opens a bigger door up for our industry to really connect with people when they're there and hire people and show them a framework to do that. Right. I realized like when I grew up, believe it or not, I was, I was pretty shy and I thought that some people are born, they're people people.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah.

[Sean Finter]

It's a learned skill and there's a framework to do it, there's a system to do it. And that's like, as I said, with my daughter, the youngest one's the shyest one, it's gonna be so good for her to talk to a couple hundred people a day as a host on the door and make small talk and then get to meaningful things. But I think that's it. And you know, if I could put it into a framework, you know, three levels of human connection. We have level one, nsw, new sports and weather. You know, hey, how you doing, how you doing? Nice weather, how's your team doing? All that sort of thing. Level two is where people, even strangers, can talk about things that are more meaningful. But you know, it usually happens when the opportunity presents itself, itself, it's usually chance. Level three, communication is where we're going to talk about things that are meaningful that, that even a stranger can talk about. And a good acronym for it is Ford Family Occupation, Recreation and Dreams. If you're talking about one of those four things to another human being, they've got something to say about it.

[Eric Cacciatore]

That's family, recreation. Sorry, Family, occupation.

[Sean Finter]

Yeah, Recreation, dreams and dreams.

[Eric Cacciatore]

So those three things, News, sports and weather, General.

[Sean Finter]

Yeah.

[Eric Cacciatore]

The second one was more meaningful. Usually by chance, something that we stumble upon.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Eric Cacciatore]

And then the next three things forward. Family, occupation.

[Sean Finter]

Recreation, dreams. Yeah. So family, that's obvious. Occupation is not necessarily just all about where do you work but why do you work there? What do you love about the work that you do? What got you into that, you know what, what surprised you when you became a full time professional in this area? Like now we're talking about, you know, where somebody spends one third of their life. Like if that's not meaningful to them then I don't know what is. Recreation is, you know, what do you like to do outside of here? You know what, what, you know, pickleball, I like Harley Davidson's like. And then suddenly you're cycling and you find something that, that, oh man, my dad loves that too. Or I enjoy doing that. And then dreams is like, what do you want to do next? Where do you want to go? Who do you want to meet?

[Eric Cacciatore]

Do you have a dream for the industry? What do you think with the industry?

[Sean Finter]

You know, to be honest, the, the, the whole industry seems like a dream to me. It really does. Like this is where I'm meant to be. I'm very fortunate that I've, I've enjoyed my time for the most part I've had my, my problems but for the most part I've enjoyed my time and I've made a lot of money at it. And I just got back from speaking In Dubai. It's my 55th country I've been to and the 33rd that I've spoken from the stage.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Wow.

[Sean Finter]

And I'm like, you know, where else would this happen to a guy from a small town in Canada of 2,000 people that hasn't graduated high school?

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah. I mean, the industry is. I. I'm right there with you, man. Like, I think that this industry literally has transformative power. And I think that it's weird because it's like, I think there is no industry as human as the hospitality industry. I think we think of, like, food and serving food. Food is literally what formed who we are today as a species. We're so connected to food relative to our.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Our.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Our evolution as a species. It was literally our. Our ability to, you know, hunt and gather as a group, to cook and to use chemistry in agriculture, science. The, like, the scientific revolution came from food.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Like, we are what we are because of food in our relationship. And I think today, when we think of our relationship with food, it's almost like an afterthought. It's like a convenience. It's like we've gotten so good at it that we don't even recognize it as, like, our connection to it.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

You know, but I think that we're going to swing back into this intentional relationship with food, and I think that. That, you know, growing and serving food could really have transformative power on society going forward. Like, that's my dream, is that we. We awaken and we realize that, like, we can use this industry to literally make the world a better place. Do you agree that. Do you think I'm too much of a dreamer?

[Sean Finter]

No. You know, I think that what's interesting to me in today's marketplace and opportunity is how technology has changed everything in that regard. So, for example, when I was a kid, did work in the bar at Hard Rock Cafe in Toronto. No guests standing on the other side of the bar had any access to find out where we bought things, you know, why we bought from certain people, why we did certain things, how we prepared things. Now, you know, I was in New York City on Friday night, and, you know, there was two couples beside us. Two. Two men, two women. And I was over listening to their conversation, and they were in there, like, I'd say, like mid to late 20s. You know, they knew more about whiskey than most people that I know that work in the industry.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Wow.

[Sean Finter]

These are just consumers. And I asked them, I said, hey, guys. You know, we started chatting and I said, do any of you work in the industry? No. Why? I'm like, wow. I said, where did you learn all this? They're talking about the bottles that were there, and they've tried this and they've done that, and they did a tasting here, and this goes well with this. And, oh, if you haven't tried that, that. I'm like, how do you know all this? And they're like, it's online.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah.

[Sean Finter]

You know what I mean? It's amazing to me, getting back to, like, where people buy things from and why. Like, it used to be easy to slap up a sign that says farm to table. It was. Well, now they can look up the farm that you say you're buying from, and then why are you buying from that farm?

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

So I think it's an interesting place where the consumer has so much access to information of their. Of their preferred field. And I think that's driving the standards of what we need to do in serving those guests.

[Eric Cacciatore]

I mean, it's interesting because I think if you were to talk about marketing, I think if what we learned in terms of what consumers want, they, like, what are the. What's. What does the value or give the. Give the consumer what the consumer wants. What does the consumer want today is like, what does it. I think what we have created and what the purchasing, what the. The, the. The trends are. People want more for less, right? You look at the brands that are, you know, not going anywhere. Like, where is McDonald's going anywhere? You know, is Amazon going anywhere? Like, what. What does the consumer really want? I think that. I wonder, like, because if they did really want quality, then why aren't. Why is it getting harder and harder for independent restaurant operators to, like, exist today? Like, it's getting harder and harder for small business owners to do the right thing, I. E. Pay their employees well, at least a livable wage.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

And to support their local economy, it's getting harder and harder to do those things. So is that really what the consumer wants?

[Sean Finter]

Well, I, I think I have a different take on this that when I.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Look at, I'd love a more positive take. So please share with me.

[Sean Finter]

Well, you know, there's a whole concept of the race to the bottom, right, with, with some of the brands that you mentioned and the way they do business and, and bigger is better and all that sort of thing, and cheaper, cheaper, cheaper. At some point, it's like, convenience is.

[Eric Cacciatore]

A big part of what the consumer wants. I want to tap a button and have it on my doorstep 24 hours later.

[Sean Finter]

The flip side to the Philosophy of give the consumer what they want is to do your art so well and you don't have to appeal to everyone, people will find you.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

I mentioned being in New York, I went to three businesses there, clients they work with, they're just doing their art, man. They're just doing their art at a level that is just next level and people will find them for doing that. There's also a lot of business that are generalists.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

And then they're trying to appeal to people with a special, with a bigger plate than the place beside them and, you know, just trying to appeal to everyone. The businesses in this industry that I admire really specialize. And it's like, you know, the, the original guy that I, that I work for and working at Hard Rock, Isaac Taggart once said, he said if we do our art, if we do what we do so friggin well. He said 20% of people that come in here are going to be blown away and love it.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah.

[Sean Finter]

I mean, 60% will appreciate it and 20% won't take it at all. And he goes, man, I love those numbers.

[Eric Cacciatore]

And I agree with you. And I think at the end of the day, all we want to do, I think if you look at like what makes humans humans, it's creativity, it's art. Like we ask, what is creativity? I think nine times out of ten somebody will say, like art, you know, like a painting or sculpture. I think creativity is also problem solving. Yeah, right. It's, it's, it's finding a solution. It's, it's doing, it's making something better than it was. It's finding areas for improvement. That's also creativity. And I worry sometimes that like, it's. The world is getting, it's getting more and more difficult for the artist, for the creator, the person who just wants to do the thing that they do, they love. It's harder and harder for that person to be able to do it.

[Sean Finter]

Why do you think it's harder?

[Eric Cacciatore]

Because I think what people want is more for less. They want convenience. And I think it's, it's, you know, what's that? Like Little Diddy? It costs as much like a. You see it all the time on Instagram. It costs this much because it took me hours. You know, like, if you're seeing that Diddy. Yeah, yeah. Like, and I, it's, it's harder and harder for the, the, the artist to, to make a living, the creator to make a living, if you're trying to do it truly well. And that means sourcing from like local purveyors. Right. Like if you're a restaurateur that puts value in scratch kitchen.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

Yeah.

[Eric Cacciatore]

And you want to like source from local farms and you want to pay the people that are helping you create this thing. Well, to keep them long term, the credit opportunity for them.

[Sean Finter]

Yeah.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Like it's getting harder to do those things. I, at least that's the narrative I'm picking up from these independents that I'm talking to. They're worried.

[Sean Finter]

So firstly, you know, getting into the mindset of the consumer, I don't think that people want more for less in general. I think they want to pay less for a lesser product. Yeah, I think, I think if, if people in general wanted more for less, the parking lot would be full of Toyota tercells. People want what they want and they want it to be good value for money. And in the absence of value for money, they want to pay you less.

[Eric Cacciatore]

So I guess the definition is like, how do you define something that's valuable?

[Sean Finter]

Well, that's really what I've learned most in the last 10 years is that valuable to whom? To a certain constituency of people.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

People.

[Sean Finter]

And that's why I'm saying if you do your art so friggin well and find those people, they'll find other people to join your tribe and come in and your business will flourish.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah, I think that that is one great byproduct of the Internet today is that your tribe is no longer the people that you can literally yell to and hear you. That's not the people that are in your. Like you're, you know, within a mile from you. It's like literally your, your kind of freak is out there somewhere and you, you can find each other.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

But at the same time, that level of disconnect, like maybe you're connecting over the same subject, but like, is it the same, is it. You can find the person that has the same interest of you, but connecting on the online, are you having the same impact by being in the same room together? Like, it's like a weird thing going on where.

[Sean Finter]

Well, so interesting that to analyze the language.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

Of, of building a customer base or building your tribe.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right, right.

[Sean Finter]

There's a very different meaning to those two different subgroups.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

And if you're building a tribe, you know, you guys own it together, you're in it. They were already doing what you were doing. You're just doing it out in public and giving them a place to congregate, a place to be the hero in the story.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

A place to bring other people in. And that's. That's what I think a lot of bars and restaurants are missing, right. They're. They watered down their brand to the. The point, you know, they're worried about someone not liking it. You think about if you own a bar restaurant, most people that are going to come in tonight are never going to come back again.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

And not because they dislike what you've got. There's just not enough to like. Right. It doesn't resonate with them. And even the best bars and restaurants that I think are the best. I could bring someone there, might bring you there and you go, hey, this isn't my favorite. That's cool too. You're not part of this tribe. But if you. If you really drill into the tribe aspect and what do we need to provide them to make this work and make it valuable? It's a totally different framework than building a customer base.

[Eric Cacciatore]

So, like, what is that framework? Do you have the framework? Is that one of the things you work.

[Sean Finter]

That's part of the hospitality book and how to. How to build that, because that's the product, right? That feeling that we have the joint ownership of this thing, the. The accelerators in it, right. Like in. Was working with a client in the last week or two on, you know, I said to them, not for everybody all the time, but I said, what do you do when you've got a tribe member that's in your place and you found out that it was their birthday and they're kind of quietly, what can you do that they would. What could you do for them or with them that they would tell a story about in 18 months time? And they're like, I don't know. And I said, let's think through it. They came up with eight or nine things within an hour.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

You've got to activate your tribe and give them a reason. Give them a flag to hold.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

I'm surprised at how absent merchandise is in a lot of these businesses. Yeah, right. I have 3, 4, 500 shirts from bars and restaurants.

[Eric Cacciatore]

This is literally like all I like. What am I wearing right now?

[Sean Finter]

Yeah.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Oh, yeah. I got this one last week and I.

[Sean Finter]

And I said to you, tell me about your hat. Where's this place?

[Eric Cacciatore]

Bodega Charleston.

[Sean Finter]

So you told me the story, right? Why? You know, Kevin Plank doesn't need you to tell the story about Under Armour or Phil Knight doesn't, you know, you don't need a Nike logo on if you're in the industry. Carry someone's flag in the street, if not your own, somebody else's. But that's tribal.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah, I have a swag problem for sure.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Everywhere I go, my closet's getting pretty big. Yeah. I mean, I know you. You have opinions, and this is something that I want to share my platform with others to share political views. I think we need to start having political conversations. I. I'm. I think I'm a good person to have these conversations because I'm pretty middle of the road. I like to hear both sides of things. So I think the. The elections now are getting more important than ever. We're more divided than ever. I think we need to find that middle ground. Like, what are the things we all want to see a. Like how. How there's. There's got to be more that we agree on than we disagree on, and how do we focus on that.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

That.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Right. So a lot of, you know, things happening in the world today. I know you're pretty outspoken. You're pretty. You're not shy to back away and what you feel about what's happening in the. The current political scene. So. Like tariffs. I know you have opinions on that. Anything else you have opinions on that should know about?

[Sean Finter]

Well, this is, you know, obviously the craziest political time of. Of anyone's life in. In what's going on at the moment. You know, I think that. I think politics can definitely be a wrecking ball for bar, restaurant, you know, getting, you know, the unspoken, you know, don't talk about religion and politics and money, they say. But, you know, I think we need to have certain conversations, like right now, just for example, you know, there's. There's a lot of terms that get thrown around. They mean different things to different people. But this idea that, you know, they might cut 300 million or 800 million from Medicaid, Medicare, okay, if. Is that the right thing? Well, who would that impact and how would that work, and what would it cost on the back end? And when someone tells you that 30 million people would suddenly no longer have access to healthcare, well, you know what? They do have access, they just walk in the emergency room where it costs four times as much.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

So these are the sorts of, you know, conversations, I think, in getting below the rhetoric and the emotion and the. And the anger that people have. And, you know, I. I'm heartbroken that, like, I've only lived in the States for 16 years. I've lived in the same neighborhood for. For 15 years. Going back eight years, I didn't know who was a Democrat or public I just didn't know. I'm not into, I'm Canadian. I lived overseas a bunch of years now. It's very obvious and it's. Those people don't talk to each other anymore. My neighbors don't speak anymore.

[Eric Cacciatore]

That's crazy.

[Sean Finter]

It is.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Why is that the case? Disease?

[Sean Finter]

It's, you know, it's become that tribal and that emotional and it's I'm right, you're wrong. You know, like that's the, that, that mind frame has killed more people in this world than disease has.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

And I'm not only right. I'm not gonna be satisfied until you agree that I'm right and you now speak the same as me. That's where we've got to. Rather than debating the, the logic of the idea or what are the other options.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah, I know. You have thoughts, thoughts on tariffs, right? I think you made a post on that. I think I saw on social media.

[Sean Finter]

Yeah.

[Eric Cacciatore]

What are your thoughts?

[Sean Finter]

Well, you know, they're, they're going to be part of our life, a bigger part of our life moving forward than they have in the past. I think the, the danger is is that typically, you know, prices go up, there's thresholds get crossed. You know, when, when a pint of Guinness was $7.80 and now it's $10.10 like, like breaking that 10, you have to take a $10 billet and then more tariffs are an interesting thing, especially the way they're being handled by this government. That they're going to go up and down and putting yourself in a 18 year old server or 26 year old server or bartender and these wild swings and having those conversations and then they go up and then they go down. I just think that we really need to lean in as leaders with the communication and how to handle these things, how to navigate through the, how to set up menus that have like asterisks that these things aren't tariff affected. Like, I think there's a lot to do there if we want to maintain our trust with our guests. Because that's paramount.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah. So what is the benefit of identifying these tariff protected things or not things that aren't effective? Is it saying, hey, like help us keep the consistency in. I mean, I think here's what's going through my mind. Is it necessarily better that we are supporting foreign countries and their products and goods or should we be better about not purchasing tariff items anyway? Like, isn't that better for communities if we're supporting local. Like is it, isn't it Weird that it's like more affordable for me to buy goods from Mexico than it is from my neighbor.

[Sean Finter]

Yeah.

[Eric Cacciatore]

You know, like, it's weird. Like I don't, it's very complicated. I don't pretend to have all the answers, but. And I, I understand the challenges of terrorists for sure. Like, if you're a Mexican restaurant, like, like, right. Limes, like tequila, like avocados, like your entire menu.

[Sean Finter]

Yeah.

[Eric Cacciatore]

You know, is going to be way more expensive. But are we more privileged of like. Here's another thing about Mexican restaurants. Everybody wants fajitas. We're a society that's addicted to this one cut of meat.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Meat. Right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Like, are our restaurant trends sustainable?

[Sean Finter]

Yeah. You know, well, you know, the, the original framework of the tariff.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

That we're putting this barrier up. We're, you know, we're trying to. What, what's said now is you're trying to level the playing field.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

We're, we've chosen and in fact, the US not only chosen, is led a global economy.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

And it's, for the most part we could talk about the loss of, of manufacturing. We're still the number two manufacturer in the world in this country.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Really.

[Sean Finter]

Right behind a country that has six times more people than us.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah.

[Sean Finter]

You know, a country that allows, well, sometimes allows unionization, higher wage, all that sort of stuff. Like, I don't know if anyone's begging for I don't want my kids sewing your running shoes.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

That's just not want. I want my daughter in the restaurant. I don't want her sewing running shoes.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Right. But in a global marketplace, should anybody's kid be showing sewing like shoes? Like, like, do we as Americans, do we exploit other countries and like their labor so we can have our cheap.

[Sean Finter]

That's, that's a whole nother discussion. And, and no, we shouldn't, you know, I shouldn't have.

[Eric Cacciatore]

I feel like, I feel like generally speaking, people are so short sighted, they're like, oh, costs are going to go up. But like this, this, like this global marketplace is if we want like a better world, if the world is literally shrinking and we can be on the other side of the planet in 24 hours or less? Like, shouldn't we just be changing our habits as consumers generally? Like, is this gonna like expose some of the, that we're just doing and like. Yeah, I don't have the answers, man.

[Sean Finter]

Yeah.

[Eric Cacciatore]

I just think that generally the things that people get their, their feathers in a fluff about are like moot points because there's a bigger picture Right.

[Sean Finter]

You know, moving, moving the labor and who's doing the work and the conditions around that aside, because there's some major issues there all over the world, including this country. Moving that aside, you know, looking at global trade, a good example that Americans really love. I love it. I love coffee. There's one state here that produces coffee of any note, and that's Hawaii.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

And that's like less than 1% of our consumption. So if we want to drink coffee, we have to be involved in the global trade.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Trade. Right.

[Sean Finter]

Now, when you look at the trade deficit with Colombia, let's say, how could Colombia ever, you know, with all the coffee they import, you know, it's not realistic to think in a country where people make a fraction in a day of what we make that we have an equal trade balance with them.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

It just doesn't make sense. And, and the products that we have are too expensive for that market to begin with. So yeah, we are going to have a trade and balance there. There are, you know, there's hundreds of products that we just don't produce in this country. And like I say, when it comes to manufacturing, we, we still do a lot of great manufacturing in this country. We've chosen to, to let things go or some things have gone because of the economic labor generally.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Right?

[Sean Finter]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Eric Cacciatore]

I don't have the answers, man. But I do think that like, generally speaking, it's short sighted.

[Sean Finter]

Yeah.

[Eric Cacciatore]

You know, and I, I would love to have more conversations like this because I think at, it's all connected and people would be like, why do you want to talk politics? You're a restaurant business podcast. Because where the, did revolution start?

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

200 years ago, 300 years ago in restaurants.

[Sean Finter]

Yeah.

[Eric Cacciatore]

You know, I think that we need to, if we're going to change the world in the restaurant industry, you know, we need to think bigger picture. You know, I think we're all in like little silos right now.

[Sean Finter]

I, I think back to when I was a kid. My, my best friend's dad was Italian, rock and roll singer, came to Canada or immigrated to Canada. And one day we get home from school and he's got two grocery bags and he puts on the table. He's like, boys, I can't wait to show you what I've got. Starts taking all this stuff out, you know, fruit, sausage, loaf of bread, this and that, a can of something. He goes, look at this. And I'm like, what are we looking at? I'm looking at this guy's groceries. And he goes, Sean, you know this, this orange was likely picked in the last 30 hours in Florida. Someone went up on a ladder, picked it, put it in a basket, put on a truck, and now it's ours, it's here. This sausage is from Italy. You know, it came over, you know, this is from here. And he goes, you go back a hundred years and a king couldn't eat like this.

[Eric Cacciatore]

I know it's crazy. And I think that that's part of the point is like, we just live in this world right now. And like if you are alive today, all you know is an unprecedented world, right? And like our, our point of reference relative to where we are is just we are all so privileged. And I think that, I don't know, I, I, I just feel like when you really take a few steps back and you study history and you think about the things we're arguing about today and it's just like, wow, like what is like, is there a bigger, a bigger picture we need to see? I don't have the answers, man, but I do love this kind of conversation.

[Sean Finter]

Well, I, I think that, that you know, in, there's always problems in the system and I think that gets 95% of the attention. But like, looking at that angle of gratitude, like, man, aren't we like this the best time for humans to be alive? Yeah, it really is. There's some wars going on, less war than at any other time, less children dying there before, less hunger in the world, less everything. Is there a million things to fix it? Yeah, of course. But I think if we're focused on what's working, do more of that and while simultaneously trying to chip away at the things that aren't. I just think there's a real lack of gratitude in general about how friggin lucky we are.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Right? It is a really exciting time to be alive. When you think about what's happening in the world right now, like what we're learning about just the human mind, what's potentially possible. I don't know if you're a religious person, but I think whether you are or you're not, what we're learning about, just this idea of infinity, you know, like if that's true and there's in quantum physics and like the quantum realm is real and like parallel universes and oh by the way, aliens are also real now. Like is it like, it's like, it's like I used to, I was raised Catholic, right. The more I became, you know, an adult, the more I started leaning to like the scientific world. Oh my God, like I Don't know if I. If I'm religious anymore, but the more I lean into the scientific world, the more I'm like, oh, maybe I am religious.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Because there's more of, like, this idea of there being a creator could be a. A thing. You know, the more the. The more crazy that I learned, the more I realize crazy shit's possible.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

You know, and it's crazy, and I think it's just such an interesting time to be alive right now. But I think one of the coolest things is this idea of just the mind, the power of the mind, what the mind can do in this idea of singularity, consciousness, that we all have this thing that we share, consciousness. And not even humans now, they're thinking like plants are conscious. There's evidence to support that, that, you know, and it's just like, if we all just start thinking consciously, like. And, like, really what matters? Like, what are the universal things that matter? Like, all the little stuff that we hate about each other doesn't really. At the end of the day, the differences, you know, whether you're left or right, don't really matter.

[Sean Finter]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Eric Cacciatore]

I don't know. I think why don't we talk about that stuff?

[Sean Finter]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

And.

[Sean Finter]

And there's no better place for. To connect to all of that and explore it than I think that in a bar, restaurant.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Exactly.

[Sean Finter]

My. My experience in. On the weekend in New York City, a city that I've been to 75 or 80 times. I love it. It's one of my favorite places in the world. But, you know, of the tens and tens of millions of people there, the only ones I connected with were in bars and restaurants.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah, right.

[Sean Finter]

You don't stop someone on the street and get into a conversation with them or saddle up to them on a subway in a city like New York, it's less likely to have a meaningful conversation. But, you know, I talked to those people standing beside me. I talked to the staff, I talked to the. You know, and then they introduced us to somebody who. Who liked what we liked. And I just think that's the opportunity for us if we focus on that and. And make that a lead element of our business model, I think you win.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah. You know, and I think one thing that all, you know, establishments could be better about is focusing on what's happening locally. There's, like this. We have this access to, like, this global network of information. What's happening on a global or national scale, but, like, what's happening in your backyard?

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Like, we are. Do we get together and talk about local politics. Like, how many people actually go out and vote for the local politics. The numbers are, like, bad. It's like, like in the single digits of percentage of people who show up for, like, local politics.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

But that's where the change happens. Like, why aren't more restaurants saying, like, let's come together and talk about these people who are running in our community, like, get back to that local tavern pub, like, what's going on here locally? Like, like restaurants were like, political, like centerpoint points for the longest time.

[Sean Finter]

You know, that. That's, that's a great point. So one of the things that, that we did going back to Sydney was that, you know, most of my places didn't open for lunch. And there I have these beautiful venues, these boardrooms, if you like, not being utilized during the day. And so we started to make a point talking to our guests about it, putting up on the website that we'd be willing to loan you our, our space during the day. So for political groups, for philanthropic groups, whatever else. And I mean, you know, if they wanted something from us, they could bring things in, but if they wanted something, we charge them whatever we charge them and we take care of them when they're there and all of that. But I mean, getting to meet those people and our staff meeting those folks and then connecting them to other guests who came in, and it's, it's an. It's when you position your bar restaurant as the hub of the community. And if you're not sharing that space, you know, then I think you're missing out.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah. Is there anything that did not come out of today's conversation? Now's the time to get it out.

[Sean Finter]

You know, one thing that's, that's near and dear to my heart, that what I just flew to Dubai to talk about there, you know, is this aspect of mental health in our, in our industry. And I guess the message that I'd love to share, and it's exciting for me because it's kind of new, and I'm doing work with clients to create an environment, an opportunity for people to work in a business that is purposely focused on having a better space for your mental health, your creative mind and that sort of thing. In the past, I think it's been seen by many in the industry to be an expensive thing to do.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

And what I'm proving now with a bunch of clients that I'm working with, it's actually a cost benefit to the business because you're attracting a certain type of person into Your business, you have less turnover, less gossip, less issues, that sort of thing. So, you know, for example, working with clients to figure out in the business, like where the. The industry where your particular business impedes on their mental health. And an example of that is, you know, I don't care who you are. When the shit hits a fan and the bars five deep and you've got some intoxicated customers, the music's louder, the lighting's darker. It's a tough environment to work in. And we, with a couple clients I'm working with right now, they put a light in all the bars that if you're walking the floor and this light's on, like a traffic light, it stays on green. If it's on yellow, someone on that team is feeling, you know, like a. There's a lot of pressure here. If it's on red, it doesn't necessarily mean that, you know, someone needs to be ejected, but it means, hey, we need help here, right? We're struggling. And you know what, what I'm doing with three clients at the moment, kind of testing this theory is, you know, most bars and restaurants have between 14 and 18 peak hours a week where they're. Where they're pumping. And it's this concept of just extra hands. It's an unskilled or untrained person in a specific position. But they're a capable, and they don't have to be a young person.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Utility player.

[Sean Finter]

Yeah, utility player. To come in and to shift into that area where the pressure is. You know, at one point, the host stands getting trampled. Then the restaurants all got seated. You might need that person there. The dish pits overflowing. The bartenders need someone to clean an ice well. And we've been testing. Let's round it up to 20 peak hours. And just for a rough figure, $20 an hour, that's $400 a week for that business. And I mean, the reception of that has been unbelievable to have. You know, anyone who works at a bar restaurant hasn't had a week go by where you don't think it'd be nice to have another person here right now for just half an hour to dig me out. So that's one way that we're working. Another example is my bars. We went dry. We. You know, I just got to a point where I saw a few messy things and I thought, we're in the business of selling alcohol, not drinking it.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

And I don't know about you, I have a couple of drinks and I start making some bad decisions.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

About what I say, what I eat, all of that. And so we took that out. You know, in my case, we lost about 15% of our front of house staff. Droves of people came down that wanted to work in that environment. We have to worry about your, your colleague being drunk, you know, just making bad decisions, being on his phone more, whatever it might be. So we're working with these businesses to find out. So how do we make this a attractive place for people who want to work in the industry but don't want a lot of the downside that comes with, you know, the stress, the alcohol, the drugs and all of that.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah. If we want to learn more about these things that you're sharing with us, or maybe we want to hire you or maybe be a part of the community that you are a leader in. What's the best way to connect?

[Sean Finter]

So I'm pretty active on both Instagram and Facebook. We have a private page or page that you can just join or group. Sorry, we have a Facebook group that you can join. So if you go to the Instagram is Finter F I N T E R Sean S E A N all one word. You'll find me there and just Sean Finter on Facebook and my team will connect you. What I often say is that we, you know, everything that we that I've talked about today or most everything we have a system for, we have case studies, we have tools for, we give all that away. I get paid for implementation as a coach. Content and education that's out there. We do for free.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yeah. Yeah. So we'll have links to that in the show notes. If you guys in the player or whatever that be, itunes, Spotify to scroll down. We'll have the link to your Instagram into your Facebook page there. I, I would love to continue to follow up every couple of years, man. You know, I want to kind of end where we started. So we, I kind of, we echoed the first success quote that you shared with us two years ago. And I think again, before you have a breakthrough, you must have a break with. And I think that kind of resonated with me, this idea of getting very intentional and shedding the things that don't make you happy and becoming more self aware about what you're good at. One thing I, I have been. Been better at since speaking with you last is being really, for me it's about being intentional with the people I want to promote.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Eric Cacciatore]

And, and growing relationships with like the, the greatest hits. Which is why I'm back here, man. Right you're on that list of greatest hits.

[Sean Finter]

Oh, thank you.

[Eric Cacciatore]

I'd love to continue to. To share projects that you're working on, to share perspectives that you have and to promote people like you. Doing good work, man. And you've helped me kind of reconnect. That's really who I am. That's why I. To want to be. I want to be a promoter. I want to be a connector, and I want to find these leaders like you in the industry and get more opportunity to. To share your thoughts and your ideas. So thank you for helping me kind of understand and reconnect with that. You know, it's, it's. It feels like I'm moving in the right direction. I know it has a lot to do with surrounding myself with people like you.

[Sean Finter]

Yeah, thank you. Well, and, And I, you know, I always love talking with you and spending time with you. You know, that idea that this self analysis and figuring out, like, what's going to take us closer to our happiness, take us closer to our purpose. The hardest part of that for me was it no longer is, but it was for a while in looking at things that made me happy in the past that did serve me in the past that no longer served me. And that's a break with.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Sean Finter]

And that's what's hard for your mind to go. You know, here's a quick example of a coach that I had years ago, and it was his theory that, you know, there's eight or nine people in your life that have this tremendous amount of influence on you. And you might think, oh, yeah, my mom and dad. But he said, no, no, I'm talking about the people that show up most in your text messages and most in your email, the people that you're actually in contact with most often. And I wrote down, there were nine people, and they were on this list. Now he said to me, put a plus or a minus beside each of those people. The plus is, is that person taking you towards your future, your bigger self, or are they holding you back from that? My list was three pluses, three minuses, and three neutrals. And he said, well, here's the thing. There's no neutrals, right? So those three neutrals became three minuses and done anything wrong. And I hadn't done anything wrong. We were just no longer meant to be together.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah, right.

[Sean Finter]

They weren't on the same journey that I was on. And your life, you can only have a certain amount of people in your life. And so when you purposely organize your life and the people around you in that way, for me, I can tell you, you know, going from struggling in high school to the life I've lived, I just feel so grateful every day. But there's a formula for it. I don't mean to sound like the secret or something, but there's a formula to living a life that makes you happy and that's filled with purpose.

[Eric Cacciatore]

I love it, man. Who are some pluses I should be aware of? Give me some. Like, this is my North Star. This is who I get on the show. Like, who do you respect and admire? Restaurant tours, bar owners out there doing amazing work that have a story, that have a perspective, that have knowledge that needs to be shared.

[Sean Finter]

Yeah, there was, and there's a lot of people that I look up to, so a few in particular. And I'll kind of tie in the character of the person and them doing their art. I'd have to say the top of that list would be Julio Cabrera in. In Miami at Cafe latrova.

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yep.

[Sean Finter]

Seeing what he does and how he does it and the. The purpose he brings to. To his community every day. Somebody closer to home here, you know, I really like. Well, actually, not closer to home right across the country. I don't know if I've mentioned Said Moses to you before.

[Eric Cacciatore]

I've had him on the show.

[Sean Finter]

Oh, you have?

[Eric Cacciatore]

Twice now, actually.

[Sean Finter]

Okay, good.

[Eric Cacciatore]

And he's somebody that is on that list. You know, a lot of the people I would love to get back on the show are people you've introduced me to.

[Sean Finter]

Okay.

[Eric Cacciatore]

I think there are people are in your circle. Jack McGarry is a past guest in the show. Said Moses is one of those people. You know, there are people in the Carolinas I would love to get back on the show that I know are in your network. I could. I could. I could name more names.

[Sean Finter]

There's too many, you know, in the Carolinas that you. You got to get on the show, if you haven't already. Have you had Gary Crinkleton on?

[Eric Cacciatore]

Yep.

[Sean Finter]

I love that guy. Yeah, that guy is hospitality to me. Just such a wonderful guy. I think you've had John Sealbinder.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yep.

[Sean Finter]

So I love John, too. And the work, you know, the work he did with the hurricane victims. No, I mean, he lived in his truck for months. He's helped countless people. You get. That'd be a great story in itself.

[Eric Cacciatore]

I just rode through the Carolinas trying to get back north to New Hampshire. But you know what? I'm headed to Florida next winter, and I plan on taking my time heading down there, like, so I'll have to reconnect with those guys getting back on the show.

[Sean Finter]

Okay.

[Eric Cacciatore]

And I just can't say thank you enough, man, for taking the time. Yeah, I know two hours is a lot to ask in your busy life to come back and to pick up where we left off. I can't do what I do without people like you being generous through time, knowledge, and perspective. And this is where I say thank you. And there is no questioning. You are unstoppable.

[Sean Finter]

Thank you, man. I love being on Cheers.