1247: Chris Goss, Director of Human Resources at Heirloom Hospitality and Founder of Awakened Hospitality

Summary

Restaurant Unstoppable Podcast Summary

Episode 1247: Chris Goss – Director of Human Resources at Heirloom Hospitality & Founder of Awakened Hospitality

Host: Eric Cacciatore
Guest: Chris Goss
Date: January 26, 2026

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Episode Theme & Purpose

This episode dives deeply into the philosophy and practical evolution of leadership, culture, and people development in the restaurant industry. Chris Goss shares his personal journey from a challenging childhood to pioneering a people-first approach within some of the South’s most respected hospitality brands. Core themes include authentic leadership, building a “story worth living” for restaurants and individuals, scaling culture as you grow, and the importance of mentorship and community in hospitality.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Embrace Your Story—From Pain to Purpose

• Chris’ Success Mantra:
  “Embrace your story. Do the work to understand it. Harvest the lessons that it taught you. Create something valuable from them. Invest that in people. Pass on what you've learned. Leave the world a little better than you found it.” (04:13, Chris Goss)
• Chris recounts growing up in Flint, MI in a household marked by emotional uncertainty and how the restaurant industry offered a place of belonging, validation, and purpose.
• He emphasizes the universal need to be seen and valued, both at home and in the workplace:
  “I don’t think we know how important it is to be seen and, you know, to feel seen and to see others... this industry does that.” (06:27, Eric)

2. People-First Leadership & Awakened Hospitality

• Awaken Hospitality is Chris's framework for teaching leaders “real life skills” that foster trust, belonging, and genuine hospitality.
• At Heirloom Hospitality, Chris and the team focus not just on food and service, but on transparent connection, life skills, leadership development, and individualized value.
• Philosophy: Create workplaces where everyone feels connected, confident, and appreciated, especially attracting “square pegs” who haven’t fit elsewhere.

3. Origin Story – Career Trajectory

• Chris’s restaurant journey began at an ice cream stand and progressed through influential roles, including as founding GM/partner of Charleston’s Magnolias Uptown Down South and South City Kitchen in Atlanta.
• He shares how embracing empathy and service allowed him to move from unhealthy “dopamine-chasing” (external validation) to a more stable, inwardly rooted leadership style.

4. Changing the Industry – From Within, One Person at a Time

• The restaurant industry can be a vehicle of transformation for individuals with “holes in their soul,” as Chris describes—providing purpose, community, and an alternative to toxic coping mechanisms common in industry settings.
• Tipping Point in Leadership: Personal growth and professional boundaries paved the way for Chris to mentor others and bring personal and professional development practices (“affirmations, boundaries, positive thinking”) into restaurant operations—even at pre-service meetings.

5. Building Soulful, Sustainable Organizations

• Magnolias & South City Kitchen: Early experiments in centering culture and the well-being of staff (profit-sharing, business cards for all, field trips) became the prototype for the industry’s later “enlightened hospitality” movement.
• Quote: “When business becomes passionate about the well being of its people, the community, and the environment, the workplace becomes a soulful experience and can leave a legacy for future generations.” (37:32, Chris Goss)
• A vital lesson from a failed partnership: Always align on shared vision and values, and deliberately include profitability as the “fuel” for growth and opportunity.

6. The Mechanics and Metrics of Scaling Culture

• Chris highlights the danger of scaling too quickly without enough people “bench” (promotable talent), culture carriers, and cash flow:
  “How do you know when it’s time to grow? It’s when your very best people are bumping up against the ceiling of opportunity...” (41:17, Chris Goss)
• Weekly dashboards, financial and people metrics, and “drumbeat” meetings keep organizations focused and prevent vision drift.

7. Modern Elderhood & Heirloom Hospitality

• Post-corporate, Chris becomes both philosopher and “statesman,” focusing on systems, training, documentation of values, and succession planning.
• At Heirloom Hospitality, Chris was brought in to codify “story worth living,” create a handbook of policies, clarify origin story and values, and set up a replicable culture for future generations.
• Memorable Mantra: “Artistry, romance, and craft still exist in the hospitality industry, and at the core, human connection drives what we do and keeps our communities healthy.” (75:08, Chris Goss)

8. Building Legacy, Succession, and Community Impact

• Mentorship is at the heart: The path to industry transformation is helping people find their best selves, then encouraging and supporting them to go further (even if it means leaving to launch their own projects).
• Abundance vs. Scarcity: “It is an acknowledgement of an experience and something special that people want to take with them... It does take an abundance mentality.” (92:24, Chris Goss)
• Heirloom’s model actively launches “seeds” (leaders like Jordan and Cindy), supports new ventures, and encourages talent mobility within and outside the brand.

9. The Future—Vision, Autonomy, and Hierarchy

• Discusses balancing autonomy and belonging as organizations scale and create structures for shared success—acknowledging hierarchies don’t have to be oppressive, and can be symbiotic.
• Long-term Vision: The future of the industry lies in small, community-driven businesses with teachable systems, values, and commitment to healing, connection, and hope:
  “Hospitality as the great gift of service... is a place that heals, connects and gives people hope.” (99:17, Chris Goss)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Self-Awareness and Healing:
  “I fell into the business maybe for not necessarily completely healthy reasons... thank God I healed that hole in my soul.” (17:08, Chris Goss)

• On Culture vs. Operations:
  “If you’re not in the culture building business right now in hospitality, you’re not even in the game.” (31:49, Chris Goss)

• On Leadership: “A leader is a dealer of hope.” (106:41, Eric quoting his college professor)

• On Sharing Wisdom:
  “When you have ground through a life and have a bunch of wisdom in the rearview mirror, don’t hold on to it. Share it. Legacy is about building something you intend to pass on, not something you intend to hold and control.” (108:51, Chris Goss)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 04:13 – Chris shares his personal mantra.
• 15:13 – Discussion on industry culture, substance use, and belonging.
• 20:28 – Transition to principle-centered hospitality at Magnolias.
• 31:49 – Culture as the non-negotiable element of modern hospitality.
• 37:32 – Vision for soulful workplaces and lasting legacy.
• 41:17 – When (and why) to grow your business.
• 49:18 – The impact of business coaching and creating structural discipline.
• 67:55 – Chris describes Heirloom’s pre-Covid strengths and growing pains.
• 75:08 – “Intentional rebuild” at Heirloom; codifying story and values.
• 92:24 – Navigating mentorship vs. talent loss in an abundance mentality.
• 99:17 – Ten-year vision for the industry, focused on community, healing, and hope.
• 108:51 – Three pieces of wisdom Chris would leave as his legacy.

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Frameworks & Takeaways

Practical Systems

• Weekly dashboard meetings with key metrics (financial, operational, people)
• Documenting origin story and company “values worth living”
• Intentional mentorship/succession planning—supporting staff to outgrow their roles
• Codifying training/handbook systems post-pandemic as a pathway to resilience

Cultural/Philosophical Pillars

• Embrace and process your personal “story”—then invest those lessons in others
• Hospitality is rooted in authentic human connection and seeing people
• Sustainable businesses are driven by purpose, not just profit
• Legacy means leaving wisdom and opportunity, not hoarding control

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Final Wisdom (Chris Goss's Legacy Advice)

1. Let your story be your curriculum—don’t let it limit you.
2. Don’t hoard your wisdom—share and pass it on as a “modern elder.”
3. Build for the intention of legacy—create structures and tools for others to succeed beyond your own tenure.

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Connect with Chris Goss

• Email: Chris at Hen of the Wood
• Awakened Hospitality: Forthcoming at awakenhospitality.com
• Personal: [e-mail]

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For a full resource list and show notes, visit RestaurantUnstoppable.com.

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This summary captures the spirit and practical insights of a powerful conversation on humility, culture, mentorship, and building a future-ready hospitality business from the inside out. A must-listen for leaders seeking to make a genuine difference.

Transcript

[A]

A couple things before we get started today. First, thank you so much for showing up week after week making my vision for restaurants Unstoppable come true. Your downloads are allowing me to do this show the way I've always wanted to do it. Boots on the ground, word of mouth, leaders, referring leaders, giving the industry an uncensored, no BS platform to share their perspectives and truth. That's on you. Thank you so much. And we're just getting started. So if you're enjoying what we're doing here and you want to help us do it even better, please subscribe to this podcast on your platform of choice. And if you do that, I promise to do everything in my power to continue to improve the show. I'll deliver the restaurant tours you want to hear from and we'll continue to make everything you love about this show better. Thank you. Welcome to restaurant unstoppable. For 10 years and over 1,000 episodes, I've been traveling the country chasing word of mouth leads and having in person only long form discussions with the industry's finest owners and operators. Our mission is to inspire, empower and transform the restaurant industry by bridging the gap between this generation's leaders and the next. Listen to today's guest and so many others and get one step closer to becoming unstoppable. This episode is made possible by US Foods Running a successful restaurant takes more than just great food. With US Foods, you can expect more high quality products, advanced tools and flexible deliveries to grow your business. Their industry leading moxy platform also does more than just place your US Foods order. It uses AI to help you take control, save time and increase profitability. Visit USfoods.com expect more to learn how to become a US Foods customer one more time, that is USfoods.com expect more this episode is brought to you by Restaurant Technologies, the leader in automated cooking oil management. Their total oil management solution is an end to end closed loop automated system that delivers, monitors, filters, collects and recycles your cooking oil, eliminating one of the dirtiest jobs in the kitchen. Restaurant technologies services over 45,000 customers nationwide. Automate your oil and elevate your kitchen by visiting RTI Inc.com or call 888-795-314 to get started. This episode is made possible by Restaurant Systems Pro and beginning in January 2026, Restaurant Systems Pro is going to be doing a 30 day mastery program. This is valued at $4,000 and if you head over to go.restantsystemspro.netprofits you can for a limited time get this for only 97. But there's an even better deal. If you sign up for a Restaurant Unstoppable network by heading to restaurantstoppable.com live. Get this 30 day mastery program for free when you join the community. And you also get access to this in perpetuity because they're going to be popping it off every month. Go into 2026 with all the knowledge and resources and tools you need to be unstoppable in partnership with Restaurant Unstoppable in Restaurant Systems Pro. Again, Restaurantstoppable.com live. Join the community. Get access to this training with excitement. Allow me to introduce to you today's guest director of human resources and magic juju at Heirloom Hospitality and founder of Awaken Hospitality, Chris Goss. My man. Chris, are you feeling unstoppable today?

[B]

I'm feeling good.

[A]

I'm stoked to have you here. You are here because Jordan Wade from Frankie's referred you to me. He knew I was coming to town. We're planning on doing something. He said, you got to talk to Chris while you're in town too. And I love finding my guests this way, word of mouth. He had amazing things to say about you, like, truly, truly. He really admires who you are and what you've done to help him get to where he is today. So I know this is going to be great. I can't wait to get into it. Before we dive into who you are, let's get that motivational inspirational ball rolling with a success quote or mantra. What do you got for us?

[B]

Yeah, you know, I'm going to go with something that came to me last week as a summary of some work that I'm doing in Awakened Hospitality Distillation. And it is, embrace your story. Do the work to understand it. Harvest the lessons that it taught you. Create something valuable from them. Invest that in people. Pass on what you've learned. Leave the world a little better than you found it.

[A]

Oh, man, that's deep. Yeah. Dive into why that resonates with you.

[B]

Well, it's the journey of my life as a kid from Flint, Michigan, who grew up in a pretty complicated home and at some point as a young teen needed to find a place to make a buck and a place that maybe I could fit a little bit more comfortably than what my home was and realized over the time that I fell for the business and then in a more healthy way, fell in love with the business when I embraced what sucked me in and what it could be. Because I was and am everyone who falls into this business.

[A]

What sucked you in?

[B]

It was a search for belonging. It was trying to find a place where there was a sense of community with people that were more like me and to probably be validated for the first time for what I brought to a workplace. And that were. Those were things I just wasn't finding. In a home of uncertainty, what did.

[A]

You bring to the workplace?

[B]

Probably most importantly, a big heart, A true love of providing for and caring for people. And it seemed like in. In a home of uncertainty, those are the very things that kind of get stepped on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And those are the very things that are hon.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And appreciated and maybe create opportunity in the restaurant business. Certainly I knew that they created joy at the table. Yeah.

[A]

I. I don't think we know how important it is to be seen and, you know, to feel seen and to see others, you know, and this industry does that. At the core of what we do, that is hospitality. It is taking the time to see people, to make them feel valued and appreciated. Not just the guests, but everyone we touch. And we can save lives. You know, we. I think we do that every day in this industry.

[B]

Yeah, I absolutely. That idea that. That gaping hole in my soul started slowly being filled with recognition for hard work, recognition for going the extra step to anticipate a guest need and really making that shift that eventually I realized that dining out was more than a meal. It was a place for people to escape and experience joy with those who are most important in their lives. And all of a sudden, the light bulb went off and it was like, whoa, this is actually meaningful.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This actually gives me a vision for a life where my big heart and kindness can take me somewhere. And that somewhere was hopefully somewhere beyond Flint, Michigan.

[A]

Yeah, I love this. It's a great way to get started. And I want to go deeper into your origin story. But first, before we kind of talk about how you got to where you are today, paint that picture. What do we. Director of human resources and magic juju at Heirloom Hospitality and the founder of Awakened Hospitality. Like, get into those roles and what.

[B]

You do, what does your life look like? Well, Awaken Hospitality is really a brand that I created for a philosophy and a methodology and a way that I work with leaders to. Help them have real life skills on how to recognize, connect with, and guide people in our industry to be more wholehearted and therefore able to provide hospitality for the right reasons.

[A]

What was the second half of that opening quote.

[B]

Just now or the my success quote?

[A]

Your success quote? Yeah, the last, like, lines.

[B]

Yeah. To Invest in people to pass on what you've learned. And to leave the world a little bit better than you found it.

[A]

So that's what you're doing.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And that's where you are with. With awakened hospitality and with heirloom hospitality is you found your lane. You've embraced your story. You know what you do, you know what you're seen for, what you're valued for. And you lean into it and you pay it forward.

[B]

Yeah, and we've created some. I like to say I've created some handles and some titles for concepts that we can put on the table with young leaders. And talk about how to go about creating a transparent connection of trust. How to create a workplace that nurtures a sense of belonging, self confidence, self esteem. And how to make sure that each individual person is valued for what they bring to the table. And we know that this is an industry of square pegs that didn't fit into the round holes. And so we've just found that if we actually. Instead of just talking about the wine and where it came from and the farm and the source of our food. If we talk about life skills. And we talk about philosophies of communicating and leading. That leads to genuine, authentic hospitality.

[A]

We got a lot to unpackage today.

[B]

Yeah, it's big. I can go deep, so be careful.

[A]

Yeah, we're going to. But I want to pay homage to your come up, you know, and where you were before. We're doing the work you were today. You kind of alluded that you had, like a rough childhood. Is that a stretch to say?

[B]

Yeah, I'd say that maybe it was emotionally rough. You know, Flint, Michigan, is known for a lot of things. Most recently for the quality of water. But I grew up at a time that, you know, my grandfather on the. On my dad's side of the family. Came to Flint from Arkansas in the Great Depression to find work. Hardened man probably hated every day that he spent in a factory. And that showed up on his face. And then on the flip side, I had grandfather, my mom's side. That was the biggest Buick dealer in the Midwest. And had the Flint police force driving his cars. Let's just say otherwise. Characters of Flint collecting his debts. And it was very interesting to spend one Sunday at Sunday brunch. With eggs Benedict at a private golf club. And the next Sunday having fried chicken and rhubarb pie. In the backyard of a humble little, you know, factory home.

[A]

Yeah, that's interesting. So it wasn't like you. You came from a world of abundance but maybe the emotional side was not there for you.

[B]

That was it. It was the uncertainty. It was the dad who came from the wrong side of the tracks and married my mom on the right side of the tracks. And he had a gaping hole in his soul being raised by a depression era dad. And he just moved too fast. He always trying to prove that he was enough and that the successes he could create in business could kind of prove that. And as a young kid, that meant that you're always wondering if the mortgage payment was going to be made. Some days you had crazy things happen, like you couldn't get to school because a tow truck just came and repossessed a car out of the driveway. And you just really kind of never stood on a solid ground where I could think about identity, purpose and belonging. It was really always scanning the horizon for what rug might be pulled out from underneath me.

[A]

Yeah, I can imagine how that must feel. Like that level of insecurity. Right. Not knowing what the next day will be. Absolutely, yeah. You started working in the restaurant industry in the 80s and 90s.

[B]

I sure did.

[A]

Where was that first impression?

[B]

Yeah, Very first job was a roadside ice cream stand called Higgins Dairy Delight.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And you know, in Vermont we'd call that a creamy stand. And thankfully worked with a wonderful lady who was so proud of her ice cream, so proud of the relationship she had with the Department of Health and taught me about the love that had to go into a gosh darn creamy ice cream machine to keep the bacteria count down and the ice cream clean so that we didn't give anyone a bellyache. Yeah.

[A]

So, like, when did it really start to click for you that this is what you. Because it seems like when you were in Charleston, South Carolina, that's where things really, like, you leaned in. This is your career. When, how, how old were you at that point?

[B]

Yeah, I was a pretty young entrepreneur. I was 26 years old when I was the founding general manager and partner of Magnolias Uptown down south, which became a pretty legendary at a cornerstone of what Charleston had become.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, you know, the quick ramp up to that was, you know, attending Michigan State University. My work experience had been busboy, bar back bartender at a roadside seafood and steakhouse that was part of a Best Western motor lodge and had an outdoor Polynesian pool bar. Imagine that. In Flint, Michigan, and had to choose what I was going to do with my life. And Michigan State had a program that was called Food Systems Economics and Management. And it was a study of the food system from the seed to the table, like, 25 years before anyone ever said farm to table.

[A]

Yeah, it's pretty. I feel like that's ahead of its time, for sure.

[B]

Yeah. Very progressive.

[A]

So was that when you started to realize this is what you want to do?

[B]

Absolutely. I had had enough success. I actually had a pretty remarkable experience in my collegiate days and loved the tribe that I had become. As a Michigan State Spartan, I couldn't believe that there was a major that I could study that somehow led to a different understanding of what the restaurant business could be. And so that's when I really realized, wow, maybe even for me, there's a pathway where I can use my big heart and my empathy, my desire to just purely make people happy and have it be a career path.

[A]

What was that different perspective of what the restaurant industry could be?

[B]

Yeah. Well, I grew up at the time of the screaming meanies, the not necessarily always hot behind you because maybe that chef was pissed off, angry and hungover enough that he wanted to touch you with that pan. It seemed it was early on. It was. It was misfits and pirates. And I'll be honest, that's what drew.

[A]

Me to the industry. When I was young, I loved being able to just be myself.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In hindsight, maybe I could have been a little bit more. I don't know. I was, I was. I like that. Fun when I was younger.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, like many of us do.

[B]

Well, people did. And I think it was back then people stumbled into the business, they didn't choose to be in it. Oftentimes, I think it was people who came from backgrounds like mine that were trying to find a place where they could fit. And sadly, unless you decide to really embrace your story, understand it, process it, those holes in the soul ultimately end up being filled often with mood altering activities, alcohol and drugs and food and all kinds of things. So you ended up with organizations that were trying to provide joy and escapism. Yeah. But doing it through fear and intimidation and overwhelm. It was like this. Wow.

[A]

Yeah. I have this working theory that people that are drawn to this industry tend to have substance issues. It's a very common theme. And I do think that hospitality that that dopamine hit is a part of that. And it doesn't sound very, absolutely like, you know, romantic to say that, but I think that we are addicted to that dopamine we get when, you know, people are happy, when we make other people happy like that. That. That is a hit of dopamine. And it feels good.

[B]

It does.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think we're I think we, we end up being wired for that need based on how our needs were met prior to getting into the business. And I like to say I fell into the business maybe for not necessarily completely healthy reasons, but thankfully because I embrace the story, read the books, listened to the tapes, went to the seminars, I was able to heal that, that hole in my soul and looked around and said, oh, this place is filled with souls in transition, just like me. You all don't have to live that way.

[A]

So there was. What was the transition for you exactly? Just spell that out.

[B]

Yeah. You know, it literally went from, I'm excited to be in a business that I love. What I loved maybe was the dopamine and finally being recognized for making people happy. And there was certainty that I could actually be in control of that autonomy. But I was giving way too much of myself away in that thirst for being, being enough.

[A]

When did that realization hit?

[B]

It really hit me. Probably the tail end of my corporate training role. I. I joined a company called the lnn Seafood Grill. It was part of the organization that had Ruby Tuesdays back in the early stages of good quality, multi unit. And thankfully the brand was owned by a graduate of Michigan State University. And I was invited in and I realized that I was a rising star for bringing heart, soul and love to work. Yet my life was becoming increasingly unmanageable because I was leaving with my battery depleted every single day. Yeah. And that led to just some realizations about self esteem, the story of growing up without enough. Thankfully, I started really reading well, Stephen Covey and the Seven Habits. A couple of other early thought leaders in the area of personal development and goal setting. And the power of positive thinking started to rewire my heart, my brain. And that moved on to really becoming a serious follower of personal and professional development. And then I realized, wow, I've healed much of my broken parts and I'm able to retain this energy that comes from the great gift of service. Look at these people around me who are still drained and giving it all away. I think I can help you. Why don't we start bringing a conversation about positive thinking, about boundaries, about affirmations and bring them to menu meeting, start talking about them. In addition to the wine that we were focusing to go along with the chef special.

[A]

So this is all prior to Magnolia.

[B]

This was prior to Magnolia's and Magnolias was the first opportunity where I was outside of a corporate structure. I had a investing partner and an executive chef operating partner and we founded the business on trying to do this a different way by having the people, worker bees, service providers be absolutely at the core and if we could focus on the well being of our people, they would then be able to more naturally organically healthy provide for the well being of our guests.

[A]

What year was this?

[B]

That was 1992.

[A]

Wow. So this is enlightened hospitality before it was coined Enlightened hospitality.

[B]

Yes. Awakened hospitality. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It was conscious hospitality.

[B]

Yeah. It was a, it was a, it was a choice. It was a realization that I probably couldn't change an industry, but I probably could change it. For a group of people who wanted to pursue the love of service, have a good quality life and not live on the edge of alcoholic, drug addicted.

[A]

Disaster, this episode is made possible by US Foods. It takes more than great food to run a kitchen these days. With US Foods, more means consistently high quality products, industry leading tools and flexible deliveries that let you grow your business on your schedule. Whatever your goals, US Foods helps you turn them into reality. As a US Foods customer, you'll gain access to their industry leading moxy platform which doesn't just make it easy to place your US Foods order, but it uses AI powered technology to help you take more control of your business and increase profitability. You can also explore the latest issues of Food Fanatics magazine from US Foods. In each issue you'll find real world success stories of bold culinary inspiration and practical profit boosting ideas you can put to work immediately. Visit usfoods.com expect more to learn how to become a US Foods customer again, that's usfoods.com expect more the change comes from the inside out. And I think that when, like, you know, that's when I say about my mission statement is to inspire, empower and transform the industry. It's this kind of change. But I think that you create that change by influencing one person somewhere across the country to live like you learned to live. Right. By sharing your story, by making an example of you, by showing this is the path and then if, if everyone across the country can simultaneously start making those changes. That's how you change it.

[B]

Industry. Absolutely. You know, that's how we make, that's how we can make the dent. Yeah. In what I, you know, make the dent in the human condition.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that was very powerful when I had the very first person come and say, Chris, this feels like more than a job and I'm actually looking forward to coming into work and it doesn't have anything to do with the paycheck or the tips.

[A]

That's interesting because the idea of a job is A relatively new invention. Like, we weren't designed to have jobs, we're designed to have purpose. We naturally fell into our role in the hunter gatherer situation by people seeing what we were good at in saying, hey, you climb the tree to get that fruit. Because you're really good at climbing trees now. You're the tree climber, you know, and like, you can go get those very valuable pieces of fruit that you can bring back to the, the village. And everyone values you because you bring value. Like value.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

We have to make the community better. Right. And we, we fall into those roles by understanding our story, by knowing and like being able to share our story and knowing to all the language you're using. But the idea of this having a job and doing your job and getting paid, it became so transactional that we're just trying to pay the bills. But we don't have purpose, we don't have autonomy. We don't. We don't. We need that.

[B]

Absolutely. Yeah. And I was very fortunate to be in a position that I had initial trust from an investing partner, a chef that I had worked with for a short period of time in Charleston. And we came right out of the gates and I posted a classified ad in the Charleston Post and Courier that said, if you believe that dining is about more than a meal and that service can be a principle centered life engagement, then I'd like to meet you because we're trying to do something different.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And this was at a time that there were less than 10 restaurants on the peninsula of Charleston. Wow.

[A]

That has changed. Whoa.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was there last year and man, it is a bustling city food scene for sure.

[B]

Yeah. So it was, it was there that I really was given permission from a group of people who signed up to do things differently. And we had a really incredibly powerful, transformational experience of experimenting on what happens if the people stay at the core, if people start to experience trust, belonging and value at work, that they start to bring the best of themselves to work. They even start to take risks with asking questions about how to be more successful, more happy, more fulfilled in life. And that's when I realized, wow, I don't think I ever want to train someone to be a better server or line cook. I want to teach people life skills so that they can go on and have an incrementally more fulfilling and successful life.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And that was the great experiment of magnolias.

[A]

Yeah. I think that's what it's about. It's the people who do the best in this industry are the Best at creating opportunities for others, recreating themselves and others like you. You can only. The people around you will only rise to your level. And if they get to your level, then they are going to go someplace else to surpass you. The only way you can keep that talent to is by you yourself aspiring. And then it's easier to pull people up than it is to push people up.

[B]

It sure is. Especially when you know them deeply. Especially when you've come from a similar background and you can say, I know you. I am you. I'm just a couple of generations more evolved because I was brave enough to embrace my story and learn the lessons and gather some skills to do something good with it so that I can pass that opportunity on to others and kind of create the beginning of this ripple effect.

[A]

Yeah. So you're in Charleston from 92 to.

[B]

It actually ended up being a short run of the Magnolias experience. 92 to. Let's just say the, you know, the development and Pre opening was 90 through 94.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Sadly ended up hitting the wall with my investing partner who talked the talk. But when it came to walking the walk, saw that it cost more to invest in the people, to take them out to the farms on field trips, to understand where our food was coming from, to provide business cards for every person in the business so they felt like they're a card carrying member of something special. To provide health insurance opportunities and a very minuscule profit sharing for frontline employees. And so began the battle or the tension of way before culture was seen as a competitive advantage or a core component of success in hospitality. I was fighting ballad battles to try to keep those fundamental components that had made magnolias known as much for its culture and the way we're taking care of people as we were the shrimp and the grits that were coming from the local farms.

[A]

So were you profitable? I'm wondering at this time, was it a p L game where we're looking at the cost and like we're doing great work, we're getting all these accolades, but we're spending like crazy. Was that the rationality from the other side?

[B]

No, I don't believe so. And yet, you know, I'll admit I was a young, passionate, like soulful entrepreneur and my business partner, former car dealer, very successful real estate owner, day trader. And our investments were pretty modest by comparison to investments in culture today. I think the idea felt good to him and then probably it felt a little scary as a matter of fact, because it's. It's vulnerable. It's very Human centered. We were talking about things at work that typically probably aren't talked about on the floor of a car dealership. And we just ended up separate ways. And I was the junior shareholder, operating partner, general manager, and eventually I realized this was a game that I was not going to win, but I was going to burn out my energy in the process. So I asked him if he'd buy my interest. And I gathered up my bag of ideas and philosophies and experiences and moved to Atlanta, let my people know where I would be. Didn't entice anyone to move, and a year and a half later founded a restaurant called South City Kitchen in Midtown, which was really an urban interpretation of Magnolias and had 11 of the staff members from Charleston move to join my team.

[A]

So what was the big takeaway from this experience? What? I mean, you had your bag of knowledge and perspective and ideas and you brought this to South City. What did you leave knowing not to do again, like to change your fate going forward so that that situation wouldn't happen?

[B]

Yeah, well, I would say I hadn't yet learned the art of all the different personality types that are out there in the world and profitability. And a successful business venture is the fuel that we need for small businesses to be a vehicle of change. And I could have and then learned how to connect with the financial oriented investors who I additionally needed to make sure that they felt safe with the investment that they made and that they would then give me more space to do the social experiment of how to treat people differently and nurture this culture that I think became our greatest competitive advantage and now actually is quite easy to measure and monetize. If you're no longer, if you're not in the culture building business right now in hospitality, you're not even in the game.

[A]

Yeah. So in two words, shared vision.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

So you made sure going into this next agreement, this is what my intention is. Are you on board? Did you ink that?

[B]

Well, what was incredible that happened is not only did my general manager come with me from Magnolia's, a local restaurant tour partnership, Mark Cummins and Jerry Shear, who own T Bones, Gill and Grill, came to me and said, chris, I don't know exactly what happened in your partnership breakup, but every time I've been in Magnolia's, it felt like magic. I know all of your staff members and it's the best job they said they've ever had. Whatever you're doing next, I'd like to be a part of it. And that was the investing partners that we Needed to move on and create South City Kitchen pre1996 Olympics, which then became South City Management Group.

[A]

Good timing.

[B]

Which then ultimately grew into Fifth group, which arguably is one of the great.

[A]

I feel like I've had fifth. This is so embarrassing that I can't remember all the guests I've had on the show. But in my defense, 1200.

[B]

Yeah, that's crazy.

[A]

They say we can handle about 150 relationships. I've done that a few times now. Fifth, who's the. Give me some names.

[B]

Yeah, so fifth group, South City Kitchen, was founded by myself, Steve Simon, who is my general manager at Magnolias, and Robbie Kukler. And Robbie had been my best friend since the ninth grade. Grew up in the same restaurant business with me, Michigan State University roommate and fraternity brother. And the three of us founded South City Management Group, which then over time, grew into Fifth Group. And part of the story, maybe for later on. I ended up selling my interest in South City Management Group to Steve and Robby in 1999, when I made an early midlife choice to focus on leading the next generation of my family that ended up here in Vermont.

[A]

Okay, so Fifth Group is different from fifth Street Group.

[B]

Yes, it is.

[A]

Okay, that's. That's where I'm getting my wires crossed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I had Patrick Whalen from 5th Street Group on the show, and I was like, this feels really familiar. So how long. Hit me one more time. You were in Atlanta from what year to what year?

[B]

Atlanta? From 94 until 93 till 99. 94 till 99. This was happening in pretty rapid succession. Those early life experiences, of course, were still long days and long nights, and it was a blur. And when ultimately 1999, with a one year old, a three year old, a marriage that I adored, and two little sisters who both had become single moms with twins in Vermont, kind of brought me to a place that was like, oh, my God. Raised by a single mom, raised in a house of uncertainty here with my kids and my sisters. There were seven nieces and nephews and no leader of my family here in Vermont. And so I made a big decision to let go of something that I loved very much and was very proud of, to make sure that the next generation of the Goss family wasn't a continuation of the multi generational accident.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, community starts with family, right?

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

You can't. You can't make an impact unless what's at home is. Is taken care of.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that's really important to. To see that. So Hit me one more time. Where was fifth street when you left? How many locations?

[B]

Fifth group at that time.

[A]

Now I'm crossing my wife.

[B]

That's all right. Was South City Kitchen in Midtown, which was really the flagship. We were pioneers of the West Midtown warehouse district and put a. An establishment in the King Plow Arts center that was the Food Studio and Bold American Catering and events. We took over 18,000 square feet of artist, gallery, warehouse special event space and created a chef driven new American cooking restaurant with adjacent catering and special event space.

[A]

So that was Food Studio. Was that the name of the concept? And then you also had Bold American Catering on top of South City. So three entities?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Anything beyond that?

[B]

Well, we had a collection of coffee cafes and bakeries by collection.

[A]

How many locations?

[B]

Three locations. They were called the Urban Coffee Bungalow. And believe it or not, that happened well before Starbucks ever showed up in Atlanta. And South City Kitchen had really adopted the revised philosophy of Magnolias, which its purpose was when business becomes passionate about the well being of its people, the community and the environment, that the workplace becomes a soulful experience and can leave a legacy for future generations. And we had a vision of using the power of the neighborhood gathering place, the Coffee Cafe Coffee as a place to bring people together to kind of share this vision of the power of what small community businesses could be.

[A]

Hit me with that vision one more time because it sounded so good. I want to hear it again.

[B]

When business becomes passionate about the well being of its people, the community and the environment, the workplace becomes a soulful experience and can leave a legacy for future generations.

[A]

So how was this a revision? Because that sounds like what you had in mind when you were with Magnolia. It was.

[B]

I just didn't have the words for it at the time.

[A]

Okay, so the refined distilled version, the clarity.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Got it. So you're a total six unit operator at this point?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

In terms of. This is where I like, I don't know, I always feel so silly talking about these things. Numbers, right? We're not supposed to ask people about money. It's just rude.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But the reason I do is because I feel like it's so important that we talk about numbers and show people that it can work. So where were you in terms of like profitability and like, I know we're going back, you know, 27 years, 28 years.

[B]

Yeah, you know, we were, you know, this is, this is funny now. This is back in the days when a million dollars was a lot of money.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But we were, we were six units, three of which were small neighborhood, you know, coffee cafes. And we were at, you know, about the 12 million dollar mark.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

In revenue.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, you know, the role of Steve Simon kind of evolved to be a little bit more of a controller and cfo. The role of Robbie had become more of the restaurant operator with regard to teaching, training and equipping the teams. And I held a little bit more of that same role that I had been, which was the primary torch carrier CEO with regard to the vision, the voice, the vibe, and the values.

[A]

Would you say that's a CEO role?

[B]

Yeah, I would, yeah. So we were pretty fortunate to have my big heart and some success in proving that this way of leading and loving people at work created authentic hospitality. We had Robbie, who was very focused on very tight operations and teaching people the skills and the craft of service, and Steve, who was very focused on numbers. So we were, we were in that 8 to 12% bottom line. Wow.

[A]

So eight 12% with 12 million. You're doing good. You're doing good.

[B]

Yeah. Now, our challenge was we were young entrepreneurs and we continued to kind of think we were originally unfallible. And people came to us and said, wow, what you're doing is different. It feels different. I have a hope, I have a dream, I'd like to do a thing. And we're like, well, let us help you.

[A]

Yeah. So what happens? Why is that a trap? Why do you have to avoid that?

[B]

Oh, I just think it's all intoxicating. You know, as young men.

[A]

We'Re unstoppable.

[B]

Yeah. Getting those, those strokes of ego and having people come to you and say, gosh, when I dine here, it feels special. When I deliver fresh fish to the back door, I feel special. This is the best job I've ever had. You've made a significant difference in my life. Feel special. Why not keep doing it? And it's kind of like you have that first sip of beer and you're belly feels warm and you say, wow, this is great. Why not have another?

[A]

Yeah. You know, I, I gotta say it, it doesn't have to be a trap.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I call the trap because that is how you scale. By doing more for more people, by creating opportunity for others, by creating more and more win, win situations. But knowing what you know now about how to scale a business with an additional 20, 30 years of operation, what would you have done differently then?

[B]

Yeah, well, I, I do feel like we had a mantra or some guy, some guardrails back then that said, how do you know when it's Time to grow. It's when your very best people are bumping up against the ceiling of opportunity and there are people below them that have been under studies ready to take the next leap.

[A]

Is there one? Sorry. Keep going.

[B]

And thankfully and generally we followed that guideline of how do we train, how do we retain the great people that we have helped to nurture, or how do we help them bust through that ceiling, go do the thing on their own?

[A]

Is there any other thing that governs growth? There's one more thing I can think of. I'm just curious. I would say there's two things that term determine growth.

[B]

Yeah. Well, I would say say, you know, the, the vehicle of change, of spreading hospitality in the world needs fuel. And fuel is profitability.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And if you want to provide the extras, you want to close a business to, you know, rent out a piece of land with a big lake and have a live music festival for your staff for your annual party, and take amazing field trips to the farmers and the foragers and the winemakers. You need to generate the revenue and be disciplined enough to have the profit for the fertilizer.

[A]

13 years, 1250 episodes. I can say I've learned something because the two, the two things I always say is cash flow and people. Yeah, you gotta have cash flow and you gotta have the people. And I think people get over their skis when they, they think, they think they got. They capture magic in a bottle and nothing can stop us. We figured it out and then they try to scale, scale, scale, and they don't have the depth and people to, to take what Chris Schultz would call the culture carriers. And it's those people, it's like when they hit that ceiling and then you have a bench three to four deep. Now you're like, if I don't move these people that are at the top to go do their own thing or to take what we've done and do it in different market to make room for the bench. But those people become the culture carriers.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And, and you know, if you can send two or three people at each one of those locations and then, you know, and slow too. And then also, like you said, you need fuel. All cash is, is fuel for the fire, fuel for the purpose, fuel for the, the mission. And you can't let those tanks run dry because as. Even if you have the best people who are on board, they have liabilities, they have responsibilities, they need security. You know, you can't expect them to sacrifice for your dream, for your vision. It can be a shared vision. But they have to feel security before anything else.

[B]

Absolutely. And if, especially in, you know, in my case, growing up in a place of uncertainty, where scarcity thinking was every day, and then creating a more comfortable, stable and abundant life, and therefore more abundance thinking, it's still a pretty scary day when you wake up as a 26 year old entrepreneur with six businesses, two partners, nearly 400 employees that include people of all ages, young couples that now have brought babies into the world. And all of a sudden it's like, wow, this isn't just a game I'm playing. This is a responsibility to honor our word, to not only keep the culture alive and authentic and never backtrack on the things that have made us different, but to make sure that we're providing certainty and confidence so that people can come to work and bring the best of themselves to work instead of worry like we have today with the world that's changing so quickly. Right.

[A]

So in 1999, your family is in Vermont. There's no clear leader in the family. And you want to be that leader for your family, that. Absolutely no. That person in that role. Where was Fifth Street? Did I do it again?

[B]

Fifth group.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

I knew I did.

[A]

Sorry, Fifth group. During that time, like, were you guys in a good place or did you get over your skis? Was it, were you taking on too much?

[B]

Yeah, there were two factors that got us over our skis. One was we went big in doing the Food Studio and Bold American catering as we were in a quick ramp up to the 96 Olympic Games. And we had made commitments to the Mercedes, Daimler Benz company, the Canadian Olympic committee, Nokia Electronic Company to be their caterer and provider for the 96 games. We had to build out a space to be able to do that. And the most incredible tangent ever, at South City Kitchen, I managed to attract my absolute hero into my life, Jimmy Buffett.

[A]

Oh, cool.

[B]

And ended up in a conversation with him at a pivotal time of change in his first two Margaritaville Cafes. Had a vision of how he wanted to do it differently, which was at odds with his attorney and business manager. And he fell in love with how he felt at South City Kitchen. And before you knew it, Steve and Robbie were on a and I were on a private plane flying to Key west, staying in Jimmy's house. And then we had a management contract to renovate, refit and operate the Margaritaville Cafe in New Orleans. So not only did we have this growing business in Atlanta, with the Olympic Games coming, we ended up with this management contract, corporate apartments, sending Key Team members down to New Orleans to rebirth this live music club. And the combination of those two ended up becoming a strain on cash.

[A]

So it was cash flow.

[B]

Yeah. Which then brings strain in relationship that then creeps in other wonder and doubt and uncertainties. And thankfully, as we busted out the other side of the Olympic Games, we made a decision to detach ourselves from Jimmy. We made a decision to detach ourselves from the urban coffee bungalow concept, get back to our core competencies, and we brought in our first business coach. And it was in that that we really refined our vision, values, purpose, but also got into much more intentional, courageous business management practices, cash flow management. And that really I think right sized the company and put Steven Robbie in a position after my exit to Vermont to then grow to do several more South City Kitchen flagships, Echo in midtown, La Tavola Trattoria in the Virginia Highlands neighborhood. And on that foundation created, I think what is still one of the great hospitality restaurant companies in the South.

[A]

Who was that coach that you brought in?

[B]

Yeah, her name was Kathleen Askew Gear Kathleen Ask and as Ask your business services. And Kathleen helped us immensely and then therefore helped me understand how to create a framework for coaching and leading.

[A]

How did you grow? What was the tipping point? What did she teach you to do better that you weren't doing before? Because it sounds like up to this point you had a grasp on vision, values, mission. You had those things. I think you said cash flow too.

[B]

Yeah, it was, it was patience. It was applying and pumping the brakes. When we got excited with our hair on fire about a new idea being disciplined to set financial goals, not just people goals about when we're ready to grow and to have a weekly meeting with a dashboard of metrics and invest in the weekly drum beat of taking inventory of where we were at with regard the goals we had set.

[A]

So kind of similar to what EOS teaches and I think DM3 or whatever. There's another one, Mike, actually it's the author of Seven Habits, Michael Gerber.

[B]

Not Gerber.

[A]

That's eth. What am I thinking? Who's help me out here? Seven Habits. Highly effective people. Covey, Covey. Covey's framework, Was it that framework, you know what I'm talking about, where you have like an annual meeting that focuses. Well, you set a 10 year plan, a 10 year goal and then where we have to be in five years, where we have to be in one year to be on track for five years, what do we have to do this month or this quarter to be on track for One year. And what we have to do this week to be on track for the quarterly goals, that kind of thing.

[B]

Absolutely. Okay. Which for hair on fire passionate entrepreneurs seeking the still dopamine hit of being wonderful. Man, that was boring and hard and took a lot of courage.

[A]

But it keeps you focused.

[B]

It does. And I think it made all the difference. And it was really that that allowed South City Management Group to evolve out of its startup phase and really rest on a foundation for that to become fifth group. And I don't know exactly, but I would imagine over the course of the following 20 years that you know that 12 million dollar revenue grew fivefold.

[A]

Yeah. And you also mentioned dashboard, which I think other people will call a scoreboard. Scoreboard, where you're basically what are the, the key metrics that you're trying to hit every day? You know, like focusing on the numbers and the, the big picture. Where are we going? And that what that does is it helps you say no to the things that aren't taking you there.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like no. Is that where we said we were going to be at the end of this quarter?

[B]

No.

[A]

Is that going to pull us away from what we said we're going to do by the end of this quarter? No. The cure vision can change, but it has to be a very thoughtful like you don't just change willy nilly, you know, like I think it's okay that we change our vision over time, but it has to be like a group effort. Absolutely.

[B]

And ironically I think that's what a lot of businesses who are now surviving in the post Covid inflationary world are having to learn and has really been one of the efforts that Heirloom Hospitality, Eric's organization, that's my day job, that's really my 24 7, 365 job is you know, taking an organization that had great reputation, you know, really an award winning foundational business with hen of the original hen of the wood attracting the very best people in the market.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Being a gracious young entrepreneur that cared deeply for his people.

[A]

So you became the Kathleen for Heirloom in some ways. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

Yeah. So what happened before joining Heirloom Hospitality?

[B]

Yeah, well, I'd call that the second big chapter of my career. Ironically, I had visions when I moved to Vermont that me and my friend Ryan Turner, I know that name. Founder of Muss and Turner's and Unsuque community of businesses.

[A]

Past guests and the show.

[B]

Yeah. Ryan and I connected deeply in the area of leadership. He became an employee of South City Management Group and A mentee and I a mentor. And he and I really focused on this concept called the People Garden, a place to go and grow, where we were going to bring personal development and life skills training to the restaurant business. I was going to be the great sage, swinging on a swing in Vermont, overlooking the mountains and caring for my family. And Ryan was going to be the soldier in the field. Imagine that in 2000 when nobody had figured out how to do online education or learning environments. So obviously we didn't get too far down the road before we realized we didn't have the capital to make something like that happen. Ryan and Todd Mussman ended up coming together to create Musson Turner's. I, thankfully, was their mentor and their business coach from afar, making frequent trips. But then I stumbled into a role with Stow Mountain Resort, the preeminent ski mountain in the East, a legendary place for skiing in America. Began and owned by a financial management behemoth, AIG, the American international group that became famous during the 2008 global real estate collapse. And I became the director of food and beverage and then the director of hospitality for the local ski mountain. And was able to now bring the same evolving principles and practices of awakened hospitality, hospitality, and applying them to 13 profit centers spread over 500 acres on a. On a mountain. At the same time, we were rebirthing the brand and bringing it to modern service and amenity standards. So over the course of 17 years.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

12 of those years were an $800 million makeover of the mountain. Wow. I continued to practice these same philosophies and prove that they could apply outside of a la carte full service dining and fit in a totally different area of hospitality.

[A]

Yeah. That process of providing values and purpose and meaning is universal language.

[B]

It sure is.

[A]

Yeah. For sure.

[B]

And it's. It's needed and it's valued and it's a difference maker.

[A]

Yeah. So when did you join? Is that early 2000s? Like 2002 to 2003?

[B]

It would have been 2000.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I joined Stowe Mountain Resort.

[A]

Until 2017.

[B]

Until 2017. And the big change of 2017 was, sadly, the economic collapse of 08, with AIG being at the core. After making an $800 million investment, the little resort that was owned by the founder of the company had a spotlight shined on it, and they were in the process of divesting to get focused on their core to heal the company that was too big to fail. And at that time, sadly for me, Vail Resorts came through as a potential buyer and a transaction Happened where Vail bought the mountain assets. AIG Global Realty kept some of the base area village assets. My job was going to be broken in half and I was on the due diligence team pre Vail closing of the business deal. And I saw their approach to Scaled Expense Management eliminating small town jobs that I had spent 17 years.

[A]

What do you mean by Scaled Invest Management? Sorry, did I say that wrong?

[B]

Yeah. Yes. You know I would say enterprised scaling of expense management.

[A]

Enterprise scaling of expense management. How does that translate into.

[B]

It means taking an organization that was built to operate in a local setting with traditional roles of marketing, pr, human resources, finance, accounting, and consolidating all of that to a corporate office that lived in Broomfield, Colorado. And sadly that meant the elimination of hard working year round benefited jobs in.

[A]

A lots of six figure jobs.

[B]

Town of. Yeah, town of, you know, 10,000 people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I could kind of see the writing on the wall of how that was going to happen. I knew that my team of 35 managers and 400 plus seasonal employees were going to be at jeopardy. And so I self selected. I changed my team's titles to Vale Friendly titles. I created a longer Runway for them to manage the change. I gave them an education of probably how this was going to play out. And then I opted out 36 hours before the deal was inked and gave up my salary first to give the people that I loved some time to absorb the change. I knew that the first important person in my team that they wanted to eliminate, I would have their back. And then we'd probably both lose our jobs.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And then that was really the, the beginning of me organizing Awakened Hospitality as a specialized, you know, consultancy, coaching and mentoring organization.

[A]

And you were with Heirloom Hospitality at this point?

[B]

Well, during that period I began doing continuing work with unseen group, Ryan and Todd and Chris Hall. I began doing work with a friend and former Magnolias employee Steve Palmer, who had founded the Indigo Road Hospitality Group. And my friend Eric, who had Heirloom hospitality, reached out and asked for help with regard to getting an administrative human resources and leadership foundation underneath the organization that he had built. And so we worked together for a year and a half. I spent two years with a collection of small restaurants that I was coaching. And then an amazing opportunity came. I was approached by a friend of mine who became the CEO of Taos Ski Valley and Taos, New Mexico. The house had been bought by a philanthropic billionaire to protect it from veil. And I was a known anti veil spokesperson. And three months of Consulting to put a hospitality framework underneath another mountain. Revitalization led to me being becoming a director of hospitality for that organization from 2019 through 2021, kind of through the worst of the COVID era. And then made a decision to move back home to Vermont. Reached out to Eric and said, I'm here to help when I get back home if you need help getting through the, you know, the COVID rebuild. And that's when Eric said, I think you just need to come and join the country company. Yeah. And sprinkle your magic juju over all of this stuff. And trying to teach. Instead of trying to teach me how to do it.

[A]

Yeah. Let's pick up there. I think that's a good spot. And if you guys are interested, I had Ryan Turner on the show. This is episode 120 back in 2015. The show is not the same show then as it is today. So forgive me for steering you in that direction. If it's something that you're not expecting. I would love to get Ryan back on the show. He's. Is he still in Atlanta?

[B]

He is still in Atlanta.

[A]

I might have to make that happen.

[B]

He is still thriving. His organization has grown significantly since 2015. Yes.

[A]

So, Ryan, I'm coming after you. And Eric was episode 625, I want to say. And I just had Jordan and Cindy from Frankie's, who are disciples of heirloom hospitality doing great stuff in Burlington. So I think it makes sense to go there. Yeah. Right. So this episode is brought to you by Restaurant Technologies, the leader in automated cooking oil management. Unstoppable restaurant owners know which services to keep in house and which services to outsource. And oil management is one of those things you should outsource. Their total oil management solution is an end to end closed loop automated system that delivers, monitors, filters, collects and recycles your cooking oil, eliminating one of the dirtiest jobs in the kitchen. Create a more efficient food service operation and ensure consistent food quality with a safer, smarter and sustainable cooking oil solution. Restaurant technology services over 45,000 customers nationwide, including countless past guests on the show. Automate your oil and elevate your kitchen by visiting RTI Inc.com or call 888-779-5314 to get started. Everyone thinks marketing is the answer to increasing profitability in your restaurant. But the reality, nothing drives profit more than rock solid operations. And that is precisely why I partnered with the best in the biz, Restaurant systems Pro. It's time to plan for the new year now. Beginning January 5th, Restaurant Systems Pro will be launching its 30 day Restaurant Mastery Program. You'll get in depth, step by step proven systems to get the money you deserve and create the freedom you want in your life. Here are the systems that they'll be covering. Scheduling, menu engineering, purchasing, inventory, AI, invoice processing, bookkeeping, restaurant budgeting, digital checklists, recipe costing and POS integrations. Plus a library of video tutorials and recordings, operational playbooks, flowcharts, swipe files, checklists and a personalized action plan. This makes it 100% ready to be delegated. This 30 day restaurant mastery program is valued at nearly $4,000, but Restaurant Unstoppable listeners can get it for only dollar by going to go.restantassistanspro.net profits. Or you could sign up for Restaurant Unstoppable Community and get access to this training absolutely free as part of your membership. Plus it repeats every month so you get access in perpetuity. Not to mention you get access to everything that we offer in Restaurant Unstoppable Community like the live events, the recordings of those live events ad free Restaurant Unstoppable podcasts the Unstoppable Custom AI agent in more exclusive deals with strategic Restaurant Unstoppable Partners. Head over to Restaurant Unstoppable.com, live for this exclusive Restaurant Systems Pro deal. You had this pre established relationship with Eric. He says Instead of you coaching me, I want to hire you. I want not just as a coach but as a team member, right?

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Where were they then? And I realize I don't know what you're at liberty to share, so please don't let me push too hard.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Well the great news is that there's an immense amount of trust between Eric and I. I'm not a partner in the company, but I sit in a partner seat next to him and he has trusted me fully to come in and sit side by side with him as we slowly got our arms around a post Covid world of a labor market that was absolutely devastated, a supply chain that was completely broken, the beginning of an inflationary environment that affected every aspect of our business and in some ways an absolute fleeing of analog face to face service providers as people found other ways to earn an income in a digital world that we were moving towards. And I just feel so blessed this chapter of my career where I've kind of moved from kind of the athlete of proving what I could do to then philosopher of I have these practices and methodology that I think actually work and are teachable. And now to be at this statesman I love Chip Connolly and his modern elder peak is a great book philosophy. And I kind of see that being where I'm at right now is to have just a shit ton of wisdom in the rear view mirror and to be positioned with five businesses, 25 managers, Eric as a great CEO visionary and Jackson as a food and beverage director, to use that wisdom to educate the next generation of leaders, some of which Jordan and Cindy broke through the ceiling of Heirloom Hospitality to create their own. Which opened up the perfect opportunity for other GMs and chefs to grow. And so really Heirloom has been a little bit of a living laboratory for the great social experiment of wake and hospitality to continue you. We've worked on, you know, training systems, job descriptions, employee handbooks, policies, principles, practices, methodologies for communicating values by which our people actually use doing the work of the business. And Eric gave me the opportunity to almost lift the building called Heirloom Hospitality off the foundation, strengthen the foundation with cornerstones and rest this great company that he built back on top of it so it was stable and to have a sustainable future.

[A]

I want to get into the awakened philosophy and practices, but I want to learn first on where Heirloom was.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In 2019, 2020 when you started to come on full board. Because I know they were doing good stuff prior to you.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

They were on the the radar like multi. I think they got a few James Beard nomination. Not that that is the definition of our success, but they weren't hurting with attracting talent.

[B]

No.

[A]

You know, like they were seen at that time as the like kind of go to spot for Vermont dining. I would say is that safe?

[B]

I would say Hen of the Wood is, is the original. Hand of the Wood is probably the most important and successful restaurant in the history of Vermont.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Probably the most. One of the most notable, influential, important.

[A]

Restaurants in New England was that 2008, 2009. So like they were doing stuff.

[B]

Yeah, Eric and his partner Will. Eric was chef, visionary, voice, vibe and Will was very passionate about wine education, proper table service, really great administrative backbone. And they had quickly grown from the original Hen of the Wood to thinking that they wanted to grow out of the 250 year old fieldstone mill building on the side of a river into something that could be a forever home. That first venture out became Hen of the Wood Burlington in Hotel Vermont. And before they knew it, both of the Hen of the woods were full on and on a wait. So gosh, maybe we're not ready to close down the OG they then looked into the Stowe Market as an opportunity to maybe relocate the hen of the wood that needed to grow out of the 42 seat mill building, which led to a ski town bar and grill called Doc Ponds. Yet here, the OG hen was still there. And then a request from a friend to help him get his arms around this thing called Prohibition Pig Restaurant and.

[A]

Brewery, which is we're sitting above today.

[B]

Yeah. As a management contract quickly moved into, wow, this is complicated. This is big. Things are a little bit broken culturally. I think the only way this would make sense is for us to buy this and really, you know, absorb it, adopt it, and bring it into the heirloom family. And so absolutely, they were the employer of choice. They were bringing in the best talent. They had become an incubator of other great culinary people. And I think they just didn't have the stable foundation of principles, policies, practices. They hadn't documented their origin story, what we call our story worth living. And they had not begun leading with values and understanding how to teach people how to create these little centers of stable culture in addition to great food, drink and environment.

[A]

Okay, I want to make sure I'm keeping up with you. So from this point, principles, policies, practices of fine tuning the origin story. And then you said something relative to the values after that. Yeah.

[B]

The origin story of Hand of the Wood is, Is in a document we call our Story Worth Living. And it really is the. The guidebook in one page of the foundation that we're resting on. And from that in, in addition to it, we created a set of values.

[A]

Okay, so they didn't have any of documented core values up to this point.

[B]

They didn't. They were just good guys, attracting the best people, the best food, taking their staff on field trips, inviting the farmers, foragers.

[A]

Let's be clear, they had values. Oh, they were living their values every day. But they didn't. They didn't document and communicate and set in stone. They didn't go through those practices of what are our values, you know, so we can amplify and echo and scream them.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

At the top of the rooftops.

[B]

Yeah. The guests were feeling them and wearing them on their sleeves. The staff were retained, loving the apprentice environment in the kitchen, loving the income.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But they were just young entrepreneurs moving fast, shooting from the hip with regard to creativity. Although they had very, very good service standards, the hen of the wood sequence of service is more than 25 steps. And they were very intentional about that. And all I did was really join them at a time pre Covid when they were Preparing to take on this prohibition pig opportunity. And they were starting to feel some growing pains. The wheels were wobbling a little bit. They had some relationship strains with some key leaders of their restaurants. And so I came in and just started to talk to them.

[A]

What's that smell? I'm starting to get right.

[B]

Yeah. That I their barbecue. Probably the smoker right outside the window. Yeah.

[A]

Hard to focus on the conversation.

[B]

Yeah. And so I was just fortunate to. To have Eric Eric be wise enough to ask me to come in as a coach first and then rejoin because we the industry got rocked by Covid and with a just a very new foundation of policies, principles, practices, guidelines. Every organization was feeling the COVID malaise. And I think the timing was right where we could decide we weren't going to settle for becoming transactional. We were not going to allow our QR code workarounds to be our new service model. And I think I just added a little bit of depth, a little bit of extra bandwidth to be intentional on the rebuild. And in doing so, you know, Eric's original partner decided to move on. As a result of some stress that happened during that period. I was able to step in and fill an important role that was beyond just HR and magic juju but it was really operationally helping to lead the organization and man to at my chapter of being a modern elder to be in, you know, 25 managers and five restaurants with 225 employees doing what I love in communities that I love and being relevant to 18 to 40 year.

[A]

Olds in a beautiful part of the country. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Sane.

[A]

What I would love to get into is the intentional rebuild. What does that intentional rebuild And I I would imagine the intentional reel rebuild is our story worth living.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Those are one in the same. Assuming so can you take us through that framework, what that looks like?

[B]

Yeah. Trying to find something here that I make sure I don't mess up my words here. I guess we were, we were all faced with a choice with. With the PPP money and the shell of our businesses post Covid to decide if we were going to stay in the business of selling food and drink in various takeout ways to generate revenue, to have some skeleton of our former business or if we were going to lean in and and re embrace the reason why we got into the business to start with. To continue to invest in the people at the core of our business and be the very best of a full blown hospitality deep service product. And Eric and I one day when we were trying to rebuild team members to get Our hours of operation and shift count back somehow stumbled onto a mantra that said, we believe that artistry, romance and craft still exists in the hospitality industry and that at the core, human connection drives what we do and keeps our communities healthy, that we need that more than ever. And if you have gotten out of the business, are considering getting back into the business or realize this is who you are and what you do, we want you to come and hang your hat with us for a long time. And so we focused on being the boomerang to make sure that we, the people who wanted to be in this for the right reasons, who believed that dining out was more of a more than a meal. And it was the way that we helped people feel and the time that we had them. And we started a slow growth process where we looked in the mirror and said, we're not hiring people as quickly as we'd like, but in the meantime, let's get the kitchens cleaned up, let's put a new coat of epoxy paint on the floor, let's dust off our steps of service and our training systems. Let's prepare ourselves for the very best people that want to come back into the business. And that's when we adopted, you know, our set of values and that's when we took the story worth living, the hen of the wood origin story that I had helped Will and his partner create in 2018 and really started to lead from that. And that really just tells the commitment of the Vermont foodscape to give people access to clean, quality, quality food, to be a champion for the local farmer, and to use food, drink and curated environment to build community. Yeah.

[A]

And I think I'm so hopeful for the future, I think, because that's exactly it. I think we've gotten so far away from what it means. Like, if you look at the history, and I say this all the time, my listeners probably know where I'm going. But if you look at the history of, of restaurants and hospitality, it is literally the hub and spoke of all communities in like, if you wanted to open a restaurant or not arrest. If you wanted to start a town in the colonial days, the first thing you needed to do was to create a public house. And that's where pubs come from is like, it's literally the center of a community where you got everything, your, your news, your entertainment, your politics, your mail, like, food, drink, human connection. That was the mod. It was the Internet back in the day. Absolutely. You know, like, and that's where we did everything. And that was like the center of the Town before church before post office, you needed a pub, you need a public house.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And we've gotten so far away from that. And notice food and drink were like the last thing I said on that list of what it was.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We have gotten so far away in this modern world from what we need to actually be happy. And if you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which Chip columnly talks in peak, we focus on the most basic physiological things and then from there it's security and after that it's being seen. Hospitality is the third most important thing on the hierarchy of needs. And then isn't that crazy?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then beyond that it's growth. Do you see me? Is there opportunity for me? Is are you creating opportunity for me to grow? Right. That's what we said. Like that's what determines growth is people. Right. And then from that is it, have I self actualized, have I found my purpose? Am I climbing trees to get the coconut? Like is that my thing? Maybe it's more advanced today, but that's what we all need and we restaurants provide that. Such a deep, intimate level for communities.

[B]

Yeah, I, I really think, you know, the value of a home is based on a sense of community. A choice to vacation is based on a sense of community and places that you can gather to feel a local sense of place. Heck, we are, we are wired for real human connection.

[A]

We are human.

[B]

We think that these digital relationships and the way that we communicate in a theoretically more efficient way is satisfying that and it isn't. And so more than ever, hospitality, the neighborhood gathering place, an analog place to live. Eyeball to eyeball is necessary and I think it's at risk.

[A]

Yeah, I am hopeful for Gen Alpha. They're starting. There's this void right in that and for the longest time, for always, it's always the youngest generation that kind of dictates where the market's going. And I think that there's this awakening for the first time. Fewer people are like kids are getting off of social media. They want to that thing that we need and they're choosing. It's cool to not be on devices. It's cool to not drink yourself into oblivion. It's cool to think these are cool trends and the world is going to step and fill the void behind that. You know, we're all going to follow those leaders. Do you have these patterns?

[B]

I am not as versed and I love hearing them from you that way. I believe that there is a, there is a movement of people. I have a 28 year old daughter who's very talented, very passionate, highly educated, but fellow millennial. Yeah. Grew up on the device. And so her world is connected with people all over the country. And that. That is a gateway that kind of drags you in for that life of comparison, the constant scrolling and dopamine hitting, and it's not working for her. And I see that it's not beginning to not work for the youngest of the people that we're inviting into our workplace now.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. What haven't we discussed up to this point? Yeah, I think we're gonna. We're kind of at that point in the conversation where we've made it to where we are today. I think through talking to you, it's pretty clear about what you want to see for the future.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In the. The origin story that you shared with heirloom hospitality.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Being that place where people can come and have purpose and reconnect and not just the relationships with the. The restaurant and consumer, but the community with farmers, purveyors. How do we build that?

[B]

Well, I. I think that there is so much that is now out of our control, economically and geopolitically. And what we have the opportunity to do is for a small business to be a gathering place of human beings that are in a state of uncertainty, a state of transition, trying to find a place to belong, trying to find a place to voice their concerns. And if we are able to create, continue to create the next Cindy and Jordan, the next Maggie and Nick, the next Antonio and Emmy Kern, who are the coaches and leaders of these young collections of people. The workplace, the hospitality workplace can become a place of education, mentoring, human connection, authentic community that I think people realize. We can control what's inside our four walls. We can look out our windows to see what is happening. We can help people have a charged battery, perspective, hope, life skills, and a stream of income that prepares them to go out and be good, contributing humans in the world. We need dozens of these healthy base camps.

[A]

Growth comes from the inside.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Right. It comes from the individual. You have to change first, and then that ripples out to the people closest to you. And I think that's why I'm so excited for the power of podcasts. Right. To get this, to make an example of people and the values that you have in Jordan and Cindy and to amplify those voices and to show, like, you know, growth comes not from putting your energy out, but from putting your energy in.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

To me, to what I'm. What am I doing every day? How can I Then put my energy into the person next to me.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And that's how growth and change comes. And you said something that we, we don't have control over. The world we're in right now, it feels like we don't have control. I want to push back and say we do have a lot of control. I think you started to say that in fact we do. And it starts by putting our energy in.

[B]

It is creating that safe space.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That those thoughts, ideas, values, skills can incubate.

[A]

What are those big things that you think we, that people see that we don't have control over or we're led to believe we don't have control over? What are those things?

[B]

Yeah. For me it is a world where politically we're truth and transparency doesn't seem to matter. Living here in Vermont where we have pretty strong Democratic and liberal leaning values. To be moving in an environment where you're almost feeling like those things have to be held close to yourself and grin and bear what's happening to us. I think the inflationary environment and the continued evaporation of the American dream is very challenging for people. And it takes having mentors and a safe place to talk about how do I re engineer the way I'm thinking about what I thought was going to be mine to end up with this life. So something that feels authentic, that's valuable and I think brings me back around to that opening quote of people embracing their story, embracing the reality of where we're, what we're living through right now, to learn the lessons that are available from that, to do the work, to not necessarily be a victim. Right. To then find that one special thing that is your gift that you can bring to the world with this philosophy of taking your story and doing something good with it. Invest that into people and you know, launch something that is another beacon of hope and a source of income. And if all of us are taking that one special thing and ramming that into the human condition.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We're bound to make an impact.

[A]

Have you heard of Cartman's drama triangle?

[B]

No.

[A]

Rudy, Mick, somebody. I have a lot of admiration, respect for restaurant consultant as well. Had him on the show a bunch of times. I hope to have you on the show a bunch of times. Just throwing that out there. All right. That is my intention.

[B]

All right. I love that.

[A]

But he brought to the conversation conscious communication and how Cartman's drama triangle fits into that. And in imagine this triangle, right in one corner of the triangle you have the rescuer. On the other corner of the Triangle, you have a victim, and then at the last corner of the triangle, you have the. The persecutor. So there's this. Basically, in all communication, there's either a victim, a hero, or a persecutor. I believe those are the. The three things in the. In you would think that the goal is to be the hero or the persecutor, but you never want to be the victim. The truth is, you don't want to be any of those things. You want to take action, though. It's like, to recognize that, hey, we're just in this circle right now. This person's saying, like, I'm a victim. It's unfair. The hero is saying, I'm going to take action, take responsibility, and just fix everything and put all the burden on my shoulders, which isn't productive. And the persecutor is the one that's out there trying to, like, point the finger and say, like, you know, like, somebody needs to do something about this. None of those positions are the position that's going to move forward. But instead it's like, what can I do right now to move towards the solution? What can we all do to move toward? And it's recognizing when you're in that drama, which the majority of all communication is, means drama, and it's like, what can I do today? What can we do today to do something about it, but to not point, blame?

[B]

Absolutely. I think that I have a philosophy that life and opportunity happens when you're courageous enough to at least stay on the playing field.

[A]

Right.

[B]

The score may be stacked against you, but if you start to play victim or persecutor from the bench and you're no longer engaged in the game, karma, manifestation, divine orchestration, it doesn't happen.

[A]

Right?

[B]

And so I think what you're saying is, how do I. How do I do something? How do I learn from where I came from? Embrace the access that I had to a new way of thinking, create a thing that I can bring to the market that represents me and what I believe, and move the karmic needle and.

[A]

To tie it back to what you did with heirloom hospitality to develop an origin, a story worth living. You know, here's our story. These are our values. This is who we are. This is our purpose. Here's where we're going in our journey with our story. This is the vision. This is the. The. The, you know, why we do it. And then having a strategy, a weekly cadence of are we on track? Because it brings you out of drama and takes, takes and Puts you into action every day. Do we hit our weekly goals? No. Are we behind on our weekly goals? Stop this drama. Let's get to work.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It forces that proactivity into it. And whether you use eos, the entrepreneurial operating system, are you familiar with that platform?

[B]

I know of it, but I've never drilled down into it.

[A]

Very similar to, like, a lot of what's. I know Stephen R. Covey has another rendition of this that a lot of other companies use. And then ethics like M3 or something like that, or the three M's. I can't remember exactly, but whatever platform you choose or practice, you choose, like get something going.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

One thing we. We haven't talked about that I'm curious about you as a mentor to Eric and partner with Eric. Also a mentor to Jordan and Cindy, executive chef, or I should say sous chef, Executive sue and general manager for Pen of the woods for 10, 15 years or whatever. It was long time. That's where they came up. The culture of people growing beyond our restaurants. And you were a mentor to encourage that. Yes. While being a partner to Eric.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Take me through that dynamic.

[B]

That wasn't always easy.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And. But what I sometimes say is that someone stealing your menu in a favorite restaurant isn't necessarily your secrets or your recipes getting out the door. It is an acknowledgement of an experience and something special that people want to take with them. And so with an abundance mentality and a view that we are here to be an incubator to find people that are like and unlike us and give them the life skills to help their hopes and dreams come to life. If you're able to honor that, if you find a place where an organization's hopes and dreams and the individual's hopes and dreams coexist, that's that state of awakened hospitality where everyone brings the best of themselves to work. The risk is that you will inspire someone so deeply from within that they have to launch on their own. And in doing so, that is a seed that you've planted out there in the world. It is another, what I call a torch bearer who is taking this different.

[A]

More soulful way to visualize that.

[B]

Yeah. Way of leading and loving people, providing community centers. And so it does take an abundance mentality. And there are times when I know, you know, Eric looked at me and said, wait a minute. We just helped Cindy and Jordan round out their fantastic restaurant operating skills to become empowered leaders. And now they're moving on. Was that the right thing to do? And sure enough, both of us embraced that we should be proud of, that it's like birthing a child. And in fact, we worked very hard to help them arrive at a better deal in how they put their business together and worked with them for months knowing that they were moving on and embraced and loved them for the launch. And. And of course, that was easier to do knowing that we had a philosophy, a methodology, a cadence in place where Maggie and Nick came up right in their footsteps, filled the role. Everyone in the organization grew to the next level of opportunity. And so it just. It's abundance thinking versus scarcity thinking. But undoubtedly there were times when I thought, this isn't my organization. I'm here to help Eric's organization become sustainable and, you know, deeply thoughtful and have a framework underneath it that can make sure that we can be here for a very long time to take care of our people.

[A]

Yeah. I sometimes use the analogy that we should be trying to push people out of our organization. It's like the goal is to get people to go, to push them away, but in a way that leaves them better, you know, and if we're lucky, we can retain them in throughout their growth.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I've noticed that the most successful restaurateurs are the ones that. Have you ever heard the expression, you can achieve anything in life if you don't mind who gets the credit? And it's just like, it's about like, okay, well, what do you want? Like, you're gonna. I. I see that you're gonna go and do your own thing eventually. I would not be doing you justice by holding you back from that. So what do you want to go do? Let me help you make it happen. What is your dream? What is your vision? Let me help you get the money. Let me be a partner. You know, like, I'm good at finding real estate as a restaurateur, maybe. Like, like, it's like the most successful people realize that they're in the game of, like, real estate and in people development and creating literal avenues for growth.

[B]

Absolutely. And I think everybody. Eric is just really. He's really humble, he's really gracious, and he at this point realizes the fulfillment and legacy he just launched his daughter, who he raised as a single dad, out into college. Way to go, Eric. Yeah. And, you know, he kind of used this. This is a family now, and let's be open. Share your hopes and dreams. We hope that you want to do your own and have your own thing one day. We now, with Chris and Jackson, have a core support system. Let's call it. The mothership. And we can provide leadership, guidance, business guidance, real estate guidance, investment guidance. And if you reach a point that you have your unicorn idea, it makes more sense, likely to stay plugged into the mothership that can support you so, so that you can stay focused on the task at hand, which is the dream that you have to bring something new and different to the world.

[A]

Right. And if you can tie and there's a win win there, if you're the. The next seed being sprung, you know, like to be able to be close to the. The mother tree, you know, so if you're going to a bank and you have that name on the, you know, as a part of this, then there's like the bank is. Is betting on people. There's a track record. If you can associate your brand with that greater group and maybe it's a. Your own, maybe you own it as an owner. It's a different name if you have that. We need that sense of autonomy. Ours. This is mine. So what does that partnership look like? You know, where you can go off and do your own thing, where you have stake in it. But I have a little bit of stake too, because, like, I'm helping you get the loan.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

You know, and if you ever want to go off and do your own thing, let's do the. What's the ebitda, you know, like, pay me, buy me out. Yeah, but like, how can I, how can I see that? How can I be the water to your seed?

[B]

And I think we're at that place right here. While heirloom hospitality is kind of entering its statesman phase 20 years down the road, as awakened, hospitality is running parallel with that so that I can continue to. To document and share my legacy. We're looking for ways to share, literally share what we've created the Gallus handcrafted pasta, which is a takeoff on the original hen. Gallus. Gallus domesticus is the original hen that came into America as our food source code name.

[A]

We're not talking about the mushroom, we're talking about the chicken. Chicken, right. Yeah.

[B]

So sure. Yeah. The new restaurant is actually code name for a chicken that honors a mushroom.

[A]

The heritage chicken.

[B]

Yeah, that's a cool. Myself and Jackson, our food and beverage director, and Antonio, the executive chef of Hen of the Wood, are partners in it.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

Eric and I co created a brand called Original Skiff Fish and Oysters, which is in Burlington now as a licensed brand to a Hilton curio hotel. And I have a little sliver of it. Yeah, we're working in Other ways to see that our key people that are really the next generation of leaders of our organization have a reason to continue to give the best of themselves. Some hopefully will stay and they'll carry the torch within the organization. But undoubtedly we hope to be an incubator to continue to launch, you know, very fertile seeds out into the world.

[A]

What is the ideal future in your eyes?

[B]

Yeah. Who with regard to heirloom hospitality and.

[A]

Or just the industry. Like if we can go into the future intentionally.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If we can build something that's not reactive but proactive, to take control, to not feel like we have no control, but if we did have control and we can move towards something, you know, the ten year plan for the entire industry. What is that?

[B]

I think it is to realize the power of small community based businesses to maintain a commitment to healing and raising the next generation so that we can continue to plant new places to gather with healthy values and a teachable system and to make sure that hospitality as the great gift of service and a way that people feel when we're fortunate to have them in their spare time spending their disposable income is a place that heals, connects and gives people hope so that we can continue the battle. And if you look at the movement of Ryan Turner and the role that he played in creating and founding the Giving Kitchen for his chef, Ryan Heidinger, if you look at what happened to Steve Palmer and his commitment to overcoming addiction to become an unbelievable leader in hospitality, what he and Mickey have done with regard to Ben's friends, heck, we are all one degree of separation apart from one another. Let's get all of us together. And there are some secrets in, in Ryan Turner's bag right now of what he wants to do next with regard to helping make sure that those of us who are the providers in the industry are not giving ourselves away in the process of providing for others.

[A]

Well, let's, let's get him on the show. I mean, like I said, episode 120. We're due for a follow up conversation. It's been over 10 years. I would love to reconnect with Ryan.

[B]

Yeah, I have kind of three ideas, man. I would love for you to talk to Eric again.

[A]

I would. I was in 2015.

[B]

15. Where is he now?

[A]

Right.

[B]

What has he learned? And for someone who is, you know, pure passion and maybe afraid a little bit of being corporate and doing some of the things that we're doing corporate in air quotes. How does he feel about where we are?

[A]

There's this book I'm going to share with you before I get out of here today that I just started reading and it's called. It's written by Ken Wilber. It's called the Brief History of Everything. It's a really fascinating book. But he talks in that book. He really breaks down, like, the most simple things. And one of the points he makes, like, he's like, the fundamentals of how the universe works. Right. And when you simplify the universe into, like, a single thing and how these single things are all meant to work together and how literally everything on this, in this known existence is relationships based and tied together. Everything needs autonomy and it needs to be a part of something, something greater. And he. He goes on to talk about how everything needs hierarchies. And we are so adverse to this idea of a hierarchy, but we can't exist without them. Everything in the physical world is a part of a hierarchy.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And they're not necessarily bad, but they're. They. But the issue is that when we think of hierarchy, we generally associate them with dominant hierarchies. And there's ways to be a part of hierarchies that are more symbiotic and more naturally occurring.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That aren't.

[B]

That aren't fear and control.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Oriented.

[A]

Right. And it's a fascinating book. I'm going to share with you. Like, I've only two and a half, I think started my third chapter that this. On this trip. And I'm loving every second of it. It was actually Rudy Mick who referred that book to me.

[B]

So, like, well, add it to the stack on either side of the bed. They just keep coming and coming. So I'd love for you to talk to Eric. Absolutely. Revisit Ryan. I think Ryan is one of the most courageous, gifted, philanthropic, altruistic leaders that also is very systems and results driven.

[A]

I'm gonna be in Atlanta in a.

[B]

Week and my best friend from the ninth grade, Robbie Kukler, co founder and now retired from fifth group, who carried the original vision and grew South City Kitchen into an unbelievable organization. Robbie does consulting now through Kra Kukler Restaurant Associates, also, AKA key result areas. And Robbie has an unbelievable gift of carrying soul, empathy, kindness, and an incredible commitment to systems operations, measuring and financial results. And if you haven't had Robbie on.

[A]

Nope, I haven't. Robbie Cochler.

[B]

C O O K U K L E R. Okay. And he's probably gonna curse me for setting him up for it.

[A]

Well, if Z in Atlanta, too.

[B]

He's in Atlanta.

[A]

Oh, boy.

[B]

I'm gonna.

[A]

I'M gonna try to make this happen asap. And obviously I'm based here in New England. Eric, you're always welcome back on the show. I'd love to pick up where we left off. Anything we didn't discuss today, now's the time to get it up.

[B]

I'm just grateful, you know, it's. I've been so, you know, if I wasn't doing this, I'd still be doing this. It's all I've ever done. It's all that I know, it's all I want to do, except for I'm finally at a point that I want to begin having a scalable system so that it is not just, you know, my words and my eyeballs face to face, but I can give people access to to tools that they can access day or night, whatever works into our busy crazy schedule at a price that's affordable and create a community like you, where we can have open forums and discussion to have access to make sure that literally the pub, the place of community continues to go on for, you know, as far as we can can see.

[A]

Well, you have me in your corner. Anything I can do to amplify that voice and help get the word out, I'm here for you. Please leverage me. I have a couple questions I still have to ask before we officially say goodbye. What is one thing about the businesses you're associated with this is today I know you're heavily involved with heirloom hospitality and awaken. So one thing a value process system that makes you truly unstoppable.

[B]

Yeah. You know, I think hope that there is always a way to overcome a setback, an obstacle, a change in marketplace and that if you can surround yourself with mentors, listening ears and creative a safe environment to noodle these challenges that there's opportunities to not let just in like in life not let those challenges be your story, but let those challenges be the curriculum to become better. And we just are better together. We're wired to come together and break bread, share wine, sip a cup of coffee and you know, two great minds create a third greater mind.

[A]

Collective consciousness.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yep, that's it right on this mic flag right here. It says at the bottom of melting pot of mentors and that's always what it's been about is the bring place for people to talk and to share and to share perspective to contribute to that collective discussion. So we're very aligned on that. And my professor in college when I went back to school for marketing hospitalities defined a leader as a dealer of hope. So I love that you started that with the word hope.

[B]

Love it.

[A]

Yeah. The mission statement is to change the world through inspiring power and transforming the restaurant industry. So what is one way you've personally transformed? How are you a better man today than the man you were when you got started in this?

[B]

Don't let your story be your limitation. Don't let comparison be the thief of joy. If you're afraid, if you're overwhelmed, if you came from uncertainty, surround yourself with good people who are willing to share strategies, advice, and find the person who can look you in the eye and say, I know you. I believe in you. I can help you gain some skills. They're going to help you embrace where you came from and turn that into a positive, a seed of change. And there's nothing more powerful than finding that one little thing that you knew that you were actually designed to do, and then use that to do good in the world, pass on to others. And at my stage in life, know that you're leaving a legacy. Dropping that pebble into a still pond and seeing the ripples start to form, touching lives and going on further than I can imagine. That's the great joy and makes all the hard work, work worth it. I love it.

[A]

And this is the last question. If you got the news you'd be leaving this world tomorrow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All the memories of you, your work in your restaurants would be lost with your departure, with the exception of three pieces of wisdom that you could leave behind for the good of, you know, for your legacy, for the good of humanity. What were those three pieces of wisdom?

[B]

Yeah. Boy, I would go back around to not letting your story be your limitation, but let it be your curriculum.

[A]

One.

[B]

Yeah. When you have ground through a life and have a bunch of wisdom in the rearview mirror, don't hold on to it. Share it to your modern elder. And that legacy is about building something that you intend to pass on, not something that you intend to hold and control. And so if you have philosophies, ideas, principles, a Rolodex of ideas that have worked over the course of a life, make sure that you package them in a way that they don't leave here when you leave here. I love it.

[A]

This has been so much fun, Chris. Thank you so much.

[B]

It has been great for me to be in an environment with somebody who so deeply gets it and had the passion well, before podcasting was a thing that the influencers did. And, you know, my wife teases me that I don't have the short or shallow version of anything. And so to be with someone where I can go completely into this thought journey and come out the other side and feel even more validated for my life's work, rest of the day is going to be just like a total bonus.

[A]

Yeah, this has been. This has been equally as fun for me. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it. Jared. Not Jared. This is the second time I called Jordan. Jared. I apologize. Jordan. Jordan and Cindy were, you know, so spot on when they said I had to talk to you. And I'm happy we made it happen. Thank you for accommodating the short notice, too. We made it happen. And I cannot do what I do without people like you being so generous with that knowledge and that time. So look out, Robbie. Look out, Eric and Ryan, I'm coming after you guys. I'd love to get you on the show. And how can we connect with you? If we enjoyed today's conversation and we want to reach out to you, what's the best way to.

[B]

Yeah. In the world of heirloom hospitality, as you know, HR and magic juju guy, it's Chris at Hen of the Wood. Soon you will see a remake of awakenhospitality.com that is the beginning of a learning environment and a cohort of community. And probably the best way for now is to reach me at ChristopherLee Goss. My full namemail.com with other branded avenues on the horizon. Beautiful.

[A]

And this is episode 1248. I would love to have you come join conversation in my community sometime. We'll talk about that after this. Stick around for the closing thoughts for more details on that. And I literally can't do what I do without people like you. This is where I say, man, there is no questioning. You are unstoppable. Cheers.

[B]

Thank you, Eric.

[A]

There's another episode wrapped up here at Restaurant Unstoppable. Special thanks to our guest today, Chris Gossip, for coming on and, man, I really enjoyed this conversation. Special thanks to Jordan and Cindy for referring Chris to me and Hannah. The Wood was a restaurant or heirloom hospitality, a restaurant group I was very familiar with. Had Eric on the show, admired this company for a long time and to connect with people like Eric Goss. The people behind the scenes, the names you don't hear of, the. The. The unsung heroes of the industry getting to find these people only through word of mouth. That's how we find these people. That's why I do what I do. The way I do is to find these people that aren't really out there in the media, that are making it all happen. The glue to these restaurant groups, Chris. This was awesome. If you want to connect with Chris and Jordan and Cindy, they're going to be live for coffee with Eric on the 23rd of February. And that's the vision really going forward this year is I'm on the road, I'm finding these people and we're bringing them into restaurant unstoppable network so we can all connect, we can all talk, we can learn together. So if you have any questions from these folks, be sure to join us again February 23rd. Head over to restaurantstoppable. Com cwe if you want to get that zoom link to join us on the 23rd of February. We'll see you there.