1262: Natalie Hurley, VP of Marketing at Layne's Chicken Fingers

Summary

Podcast Episode Summary

Podcast: Restaurant Unstoppable with Eric Cacciatore

Episode 1262: Natalie Hurley, VP of Marketing at Layne's Chicken Fingers

Date: March 19, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features a deep-dive interview with Natalie Hurley, Vice President of Marketing at Layne’s Chicken Fingers. With Layne’s on an explosive growth trajectory—doubling locations in the past year and poised to double again—Natalie shares her expertise in restaurant marketing, brand building, and leading through rapid scale. The conversation moves through her career journey, her marketing philosophy, specific tactics for QSR, the importance of branding and storytelling, and the nuanced challenges and opportunities of modern marketing, especially in the digital age.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Natalie's Career & Philosophy of Marketing (05:00—17:15)

• Career Progression & Reflections

  • Natalie started her marketing journey in 2008, with roles in retail (Peacock Alley), agency life (Inc.), and transitioned into hospitality and restaurants with Hilton, Hyatt, and Sandoval Hospitality.
  • Key learnings at agencies: "Agency life is pretty rough. So I felt like... I want to be in marketing, but not necessarily on the agency side." (09:06)
  • On why she stayed in hospitality: "If you think through milestone memories... your best memories are usually on vacation at a hotel or at a restaurant. Around food... it's a medium to connect people and create memories." (14:41)

• Mantra for Success

  • "One step at a time. Focusing on one objective, one goal... going narrow and deep... versus trying to tackle too much." (05:00)
  • [Quote] “How do you eat an elephant?” (05:17) — “One bite at a time.” (05:20)

• Evolution of Marketing Channels

  • Early experiences with eCommerce (pre-social media era), and witnessing firsthand how digital marketing became a core lever.
  • Shift from traditional forms (print, broadcast) to content and data-driven strategies: "Marketing now is so visual, so video-driven—content, content, content." (17:13)

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Joining Layne’s Chicken Fingers – Why QSR, Why Now? (24:57—32:40)

• Motivation for QSR Jump

  • Previously focused on luxury and full-service brands.
  • Observed QSR outpacing full-service restaurants, especially post-COVID: “QSRs are thriving. They're not having issues of double digit declines year over year like full service. I want to be part of that area of growth.” (25:24)
  • Sought “creative freedom” and a sense of individual impact. (30:10)

• Impressions of Layne’s

  • Inspired by CEO Garrett Reed’s vision to make Layne's the “biggest chicken finger company in America.”
  • Attracted by the brand’s authentic origin story (founded in 1994) and saw potential in amplifying its untapped heritage.

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Branding & Positioning: Challenges and Strategies (32:45–41:41)

• Layne’s Uniqueness

  • “Authenticity and roots… it had this kind of personality, this authenticity about it that I saw... wasn't being pulled out and showed guest facing.” (31:59)
  • Competitors often feel ‘plastic’: “In QSR—the chicken category—these very plastic brands. There isn’t a story or any history or roots behind it.” (32:45)

• Brand Consistency Issues

  • Noted lack of consistency across locations: “You walk into one Layne’s, it looks nothing like the next...very fragmented.” (37:02)
  • Calls for foundational work: “We need to … tidy up this brand, tighten up, make it cohesive, really understand our audience.” (37:27)

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Physical Brand Evolution: Curb Appeal & In-Store Experience (44:56—58:32)

• Curb Appeal & Visibility

  • Layne’s suffered from poor roadside visibility: “Our brand wasn't popping.” (44:56)
  • Maroon color scheme lacked impact next to competitors’ bold reds and oranges.
  • Solutions:
    • Introducing more vibrant reds for exterior signage.
    • Enhanced lighting, color blocking, chevron prints, and LED rope lighting for nighttime presence.
    • Improved monument and pylon signs for visual impact. (47:28—51:28)

• In-Store Branding

  • Stores were “sterile” and lacked unifying elements — “There was nothing that was unifying Layne’s... just a bit random, the franchisee liked X and that’s what the decor was.”
  • Introduced design elements with local flair:
    • Clocks on the wall with quirky sayings.
    • Localized mural/artwork representing each community.
  • Emphasized the importance of consistency: “Consistency and frequency really build great brands.” (52:28)

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Consumer Data, Brand Voice & Testing (62:05—67:52)

• Data-Driven Brand Building

  • Emphasized deep consumer research: interviews with franchisees, internal stakeholders, and guest intercepts to uncover the “why” behind Layne’s appeal.
  • [Quote] “Once we understand why they like us, let's double down on that.” (63:20)
  • Uses A/B testing for visuals, copy, and menu layout to find what resonates with the target market.

• Brand vs. Marketing

  • [Quote] “They wanted someone that could understand branding and understand how to build a brand. Marketing was something that... we had a good foundation for. It was the brand that was just… fragmented and inconsistent.” (58:43)

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The Digital Arena: Social Media, Influencer Marketing, & The Modern Consumer (67:52—99:31)

• Gen Z/Alpha Targeting

  • Recognizes their unique behaviors: “They have no social skills, no attention span... everything has to be quick, bite-sized.” (69:28)
  • Brand’s simplicity matches their needs: one “core hero ingredient,” quick messaging.

• Strategic Marketing & Influencer Partnerships

  • Initially skeptical of influencer marketing, now acknowledges its necessity: “I never liked the idea of it… [but] It works.” (75:14)
  • Effectiveness really comes from paid partnerships—not micro-influencers.
  • [Pro Tip] Always negotiate rates, request data, proof of performance, and reuse of content: “Never ever pay flat rate from a media deck... I need to be proven why I should pay this.” (83:12)
  • Emphasizes best brand fit: “I want [influencers] to have similar aesthetics or values as your brand.” (82:45)

• Grassroots & Hyperlocal Advocacy

  • Shift toward local brand ambassadors (not traditional influencers): “Tapping into real people...influential in their community...and using them as brand ambassadors.” (92:15)
  • Powerful, cost-effective example: reward loyal in-store guests for organic content (Real Tacos approach). (92:59)

• The Risk of Third-Party Dependency

  • Discussion on the dangers of over-reliance on platforms (e.g., DoorDash, TikTok) and influencers—potentially eroding direct brand-consumer loyalty in favor of third-party platforms.
  • [Quote] “Consumers are more loyal to third party platforms than the actual restaurant themselves... That's backwards, right?” (95:13)
  • “Is it the best place in town, or just the best at marketing?” (97:07)

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Future of Restaurant Marketing & Final Reflection (103:08—110:43)

• AI and the Changing Landscape

  • “AI is going to impact it tremendously... I feel like I just open up Instagram and I’m getting served ads that you don’t even need a photographer anymore...” (103:16)
  • Mixed feelings about AI’s effect—possibly more distortion and less authenticity, but also increased content creation efficiency.

• Wisdom & Values

  • Top three pieces of wisdom: “Be direct. Be truthful. Be honest...integrity...have fun.” (108:04—108:41)
  • The importance of living the brand's values—especially the Astro Chicken ethos of being “carefree and fun.”

• Personal Transformation

  • “Restaurants... are so diverse, full of a cast of characters. That just enriches you... makes you a more holistic, interesting person.” (107:08)
  • Natalie looks outside the restaurant industry for inspiration, especially in fashion and legacy brands (Coca-Cola, McDonald’s), and strives to pull positive trends and visuals into her own work.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Growth Philosophy (05:00-05:25)
  • “Focusing on one objective, one goal, one step at a time... versus trying to tackle too much.” — Natalie Hurley
• On Creative Freedom (30:10)
  • “For me, it’s very important... I want to be able to fulfill that creative side, that creative need.”
• On Authenticity in Branding (32:45)
  • “I see in QSR just these very, very plastic brands. There isn’t a story or any history or roots behind it.”
• On Importance of Consistency (37:02)
  • “You walk into one Layne’s, it looks nothing like the next. It was very fragmented.”
• On Gen Z Targeting (69:28)
  • “They have no social skills, no attention span... everything has to be really quick, bite-sized. You gotta deliver your message really quickly.”
• On Influencer Partnerships (82:44)
  • “I want them to kind of live and breathe and look, feel, speak like [our] language.”
• On AI in Marketing (103:16)
  • “AI is going to impact it tremendously... I feel like I just open up Instagram and I’m getting served ads that you don’t even need a photographer anymore...”

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 05:00 — Natalie’s mantra & career philosophy
• 14:41 — The emotional side of hospitality marketing
• 25:24 — Why Natalie shifted to QSR
• 31:59 — Layne’s authenticity & heritage as a brand opportunity
• 37:02 — Inconsistency at Layne’s pre-rebrand
• 44:56 — Curb appeal and exterior brand evolution
• 52:28 — The power of consistency in building a brand
• 62:05 — The importance of consumer research
• 69:28 — Gen Z/Gen Alpha marketing challenges/opportunities
• 75:14 — Learning to embrace influencer marketing
• 92:15 — Community ambassadors vs. micro-influencers
• 95:13 — The risk of third-party platform loyalty
• 103:16 — The role and impact of AI in marketing
• 108:04–108:41 — Parting wisdom: Transparency, integrity, fun

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Conclusion

Through transparency, relentless self-reflection, and tactical insight, Natalie demonstrates how Layne’s Chicken Fingers is evolving from a heritage Texas brand to a modern QSR powerhouse. Her philosophy of “one step at a time,” deep emphasis on authentic branding, and data-driven decision-making are translatable lessons for any restaurateur navigating today’s fast-changing landscape. The episode is rich with actionable strategies—especially around digital marketing, influencer engagement, operationalizing brand values, and keeping the customer (and your own ethos) at the heart of every decision.

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How to Connect with Natalie Hurley

• LinkedIn: Natalie Hurley
• Instagram: @N.Hurley07 and @layneschickenfingers

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For more in-depth notes, tools, and resources from this episode, visit restaurantunstoppable.com.

Transcript

[A]

A couple things before we get started today. First, thank you so much for showing up week after week making my vision for restaurants Unstoppable come true. Your downloads are allowing me to do this show the way I've always wanted to do it. Boots on the ground, word of mouth, leaders, referring leaders, giving the industry an uncensored, no BS platform to share their perspectives and truth. That's on you. Thank you so much. And we're just getting started. So if you're enjoying what we're doing here and you want to help us do it even better, please subscribe to this podcast on your platform of choice. And if you do that, I promise to do everything in my power to continue to improve the show. I'll deliver the restaurant tours you want to hear from and we'll continue to make everything you love about this show better. Thank you. Welcome to restaurant unstoppable. For 10 years and over 1,000 episodes, I've been traveling the country chasing word of mouth leads and having in person only long form discussions with the industry's finest owners and operators. Our mission is to inspire, empower and transform the restaurant industry by bridging the gap between this generation's leaders and the next. Listen to today's guest and so many others and get one step closer to becoming unstoppable. This episode is made possible by US Foods Running a successful restaurant takes more than just great food. With US Foods, you can expect more high quality products, advanced tools and flexible deliveries to grow your business. Their industry leading moxy platform also does more than just place your US Foods order. It uses AI to help you take control, save time and increase profitability. Visit USfoods.com expect more to learn how to become a US Foods customer one more time, that is USfoods.com expect more this episode is brought to you by Restaurant Technologies, the leader in automated cooking oil management. Their total oil management solution is an end to end closed loop automated system that delivers, monitors, filters, collects and recycles your cooking oil, eliminating one of the dirtiest jobs in the kitchen. Restaurant technologies services over 45,000 customers nationwide. Automate your oil and elevate your kitchen by visiting RTI Inc.com or call 888779 to get started. This episode is made possible by Serboni your all in one bookkeeping and financial solution. We're talking about reliable tax preparation, business incorporation, seamless payroll and compliance reports Strategic CFO services that drive business growth Detailed custom reporting for complete financial clarity Dedicated support for restaurants in multi location businesses. Did I mention bookkeeping? Sir Bony handle the numbers so you can focus on the vision. Call Sir Bony today at 281-888-2413 to schedule your free 30 minute consultation and discover House Bonic can streamline your operations and boost your bottom line. Limited time offer an exclusive to Restaurant Stoppable listeners. Mention this Message and get 20% off your first month of services. This episode is in partnership with Giving Kitchen. The restaurant industry takes care of people. That's what we do. But historically, we haven't always been great about taking care of our own. That's why I want you to know about Giving Kitchen. They're a national nonprofit food service workers facing real crisis, medical issues, accidents, unexpected hardship, the kind of thing that can really derail a career. Since 2013, they've helped more than 35,000 restaurant workers across the country and awarded over 17 million in financial assistance and stability resources. If you're an operator, chef or anyone food service, this resource is worth knowing. A lot of restaurants choose a rally around Giving Kitchen because at some point everyone in the business knows someone who needs it. Go to givingkitchen.org to Lear. Learn more and see how you can be a part of it in your own way with excitement. Allow me to introduce to you today's guest VP of marketing at Lane's Chicken Fingers, Natalie Hurley. My lady. Natalie, are you feeling unstoppable today?

[B]

Always.

[A]

I'm stoked to be here. This is a part of one of my. I think it's going to be five interviews in less than a year. Diving deep into Lane's Chicken Fingers. I think in a period of like five years, lanes went to like 24 locations. In the past year, you've scaled, you almost doubled in size. You're at 41 locations now and in the next year you're going to double again. You might be at 80 locations in the next year. So it's a really exciting brand. A lot of cool things are happening. You're in the world of marketing. So we're going to dive deep into the world of marketing through your lens here at Lanes. And I can't wait to dive more into who you are and what you know about marketing. But let's get that motivational, inspirational ball rolling with a success quote or mantra. What do you got for us?

[B]

Yeah, I think one of my mantras that I always try to live by is kind of one step at a time, like really honing in and focusing on one objective, one goal, one step at a time and really going narrow and deep and achieving that versus trying to tackle Too much.

[A]

How do you eat in an element or how do you eat an elephant?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

One bite at a time.

[B]

One bite at a time.

[A]

Yeah. It can be overwhelming when you look at the big goals.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Where do we start? Well, where it makes sense and just take a bite out every day.

[B]

And especially in restaurants, there's so many moving parts, so many different functions that really work together and synergize to deliver. Yeah. To our guests. And so I think if you really try to tackle it one step at a time, you typically see the most impact and can correlate your actions to results.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Great way to get this thing started. So snapshot real quick. Your title. VP of Marketing. I've learned that titles mean different things in all different organizations. So relative to Lane's chicken fingers, what does VP of Marketing mean? What are your responsibilities?

[B]

So really we are. My team is championing being the voice of the consumer. So it's a pretty broad role. Marketing is very vast. So everything from digital marketing, social media, design, branding, the five Ps.

[A]

I took marketing classes. People place product promotion and people place product promotion.

[B]

Price.

[A]

Price. Thank you. You did. You are a true professional. Yeah. So like all that is what you focus on.

[B]

Menu design, just collateral, promotions, loyalty, how the interiors of our restaurants look, what that guest experience is from how they found out about lanes, whether it's a piece of advertising, whether it's social media content, to then how they navigate the in restaurant experience or the drive through experience to then once they. They leave the restaurant and what that looks like from a full circle, full funnel approach to converting them into a lifetime member and a loyal guest.

[A]

Got it. So now that we understand what you're doing, we're gonna come back to that and like unpackage it more. But I first just want to kind of get an understanding of who you are and how you got to where you are today. And lady, you get quite the extensive deep experience. Going back to 2008 is really where you started your journey for marketing. I can just run through this real quick because I feel like it's a lot to unpackage. And then from there you can tell me where it makes sense to kind of talk more about how that really influenced who you are today. So going way back and this might be. So feel free to fill in any of the blanks or correct me if I'm saying any of these businesses incorrectly. 2008, you were with Peacock Alley and you were the marketing coordinator. And then you. 2010, you were with Inc. Associate Brand Manager. 2010 you were also with Peacock. You went back to Peacock. You did more E commerce or maybe you stayed there and were working two jobs. I'm not sure what was going on there. And then 2011 E Commerce with Service Manager. 2013 Hilton Worldwide Senior Manager Digital Branding and Marketing. 2015 Hyatt Marketing and Communication Manager. 2016 SPB Hospitality which was rock bottom restaurants. You're restaurant under that group as the marketing leader. 2018 Sandoval hospitality director of marketing. 2021 the One Group brand marketing. 2022 A P I C I I. Am I saying that correctly?

[B]

It's pronounced a peachy.

[A]

A peachy.

[B]

It's the name of the first cookbook ever written.

[A]

The first what?

[B]

Cookbook.

[A]

Oh really? That's cool. And that was director of marketing in 2023 Hard Hardwood Hospitality Group director of hospitality marketing and then most recently 2005 for lanes. Actually you started as brand marketing. Wait, no. BP brand marketing.

[B]

Same.

[A]

Cool. So I just, I knew that was gonna be a lot done so I was like, I'm just gonna list this out. So reflecting on what I just dropped on our listeners, I mean congratulations on.

[B]

Thanks.

[A]

Deep career, you know, like I'm sure you've learned a lot, gone ton of perspective on this journey. When did you learn the most about who you are and how you want to like specialize in like what area of specialty?

[B]

Yeah, I think it was with. One of my first jobs was with an adj agency called Inc. And agency life was something I thought I wanted. I thought I wanted to be. Just be an advertising and work for an agency and work on multiple brands across many vetney verticals.

[A]

Really just communicating like developing the brand,

[B]

developing brands, developing brand strategy and then also like media buying advertising. So I learned a ton there. It's just agency life is pretty rough. So I felt like I kind of got a feel for like this is what I want to do with my career. I want to be in marketing, but not necessarily on the agency side.

[A]

Okay, you did have a job. You were working with Dillard's before all the marketing, you were a manager. So did you know that restaurants was going to be your focus with marketing or was that just coincidental?

[B]

No, with Dillard's. They're a big retailer so.

[A]

Oh wait, that wasn't. I thought it was a restaurant. I think there's a restaurant that sounds similar. Never mind. Disregard everything.

[B]

No restaurants. I really started in hotels and hospitality with Hilton. I think that's where I can developed a love for hospitality.

[A]

It's like three years after Inc. Yeah.

[B]

I think I so because I had. I graduated college in 2008. It was a tough year with everything going on economically, the housing in crisis.

[A]

7 I was a commercial pilot. It was rough.

[B]

Yeah. So I was just like, I just need to get a job after college. And I was actually working in retail. Met a woman that worked for this company called Peacock Alley. They're a luxury linens brand. And she offered me a job and I just took it and just kind of wanted to see what was like, I mean, you were just out of college.

[A]

Did you say what you focused on in college? Were you marketing?

[B]

I was a journalism major, broadcast journalism teenager. And then realized I wasn't going to be Oprah.

[A]

And quickly she started later in a thinking life, didn't she? Wasn't she like in her 40s when she started like the main thing or 30s?

[B]

Sure. But I just remember my first journalism class at SMU and day one they were like, all of you 18 year olds think you're going to be Oprah. You're not like, this is not as glamorous as kind of Hollywood presents or TV presents. And you're going to start your career off in a very, very tertiary market like a Waco, Texas. You're gonna make $9 an hour, you're gonna shoot your own film, you're gonna be a reporter. If you ever make it to an anchor desk, it's, you know, one in a million. So I was like, yeah, that's not really for me. I'm never gonna live in Waco, Texas.

[A]

I can't imagine that job too. Like getting to an anchor deck and then. Or having to spin someone else's agenda and narrative like that is not the job for me.

[B]

Yeah. And then I switched to. I had already kind of fulfilled all my requirements for my major and so I minored in advertising and I fell in love with that. So I kind of knew I wanted to be somewhere in that space and just loved the idea of building a brand and the storytelling aspect of advertising and marketing. So that's kind of what I was then after graduating, kind of in search for. It was very challenging at that time to jump in right off the gate with no experience in advertising into an agency. So that's when I just kind of took what I could get experience. When I was at Peacock Alley. I really, it was really when kind of online retailing it wasn't as big as it is today with, you know, the boom of Amazon, etc. But had started and Peacock Alley weren't really in the game of E Commerce. So I kind of built their E commerce platform and then kind of just by test and learn, started dabbling in digital marketing. And that's when I was like, oh, I really like this. I really like being able to launch campaigns and see results because of E commerce. A purchase is made on the website, you can, you can track it back to revenues and you can show an roi. So I thought that was like very gratifying to be able to say like I did XYZ tactics and drove X in revenue and it was attributable to my efforts.

[A]

Yeah. How much of then applies to today in terms of what you learned then?

[B]

I think it's still very relevant. I think it's. I was just, I entered at its infancy, I think when in my first job at Peacock Alley, I think Facebook for business had just started. So it was at the very cusp of what digital marketing and kind of the primary levers of how many companies drive traffic and drive awareness through digital channels. It was just at the very cusp of it. So I think it was a good time to kind of jump on that wagon.

[A]

Yeah. So as you continue to evolve, become more self aware, become more niche as a marketing person. You said that happened for you around Hilton. What was it about Hilton in the world of hospitality that sucked you in?

[B]

I think Hilton, I loved the idea of working kind of like in the travel space. I lived abroad most of my childhood, have traveled and lived in many states and places throughout the U.S. so travel was just kind of part of a passion and part of my DNA. And so I love the idea, idea of that. And then thinking about travel and what you're creating with a company like Hilton or you know, a hotel brand is kind of, if you think through milestone memories or your best memories, they're usually like on vacation at a hotel or at a restaurant. Around food, around food. Exactly. Like it's a very, it's almost like a medium to connect people and to create memories. And I just love the idea of making those memories. And most people's like favorite time is, you know, when they go on vacation or when they go out to eat and they're celebrating something special. So kind of being involved in that and being able to help curate those experiences was very interesting to me.

[A]

So your passion early on, I mean, you had the passion for marketing, but you also had this additional passion for travel. Not so much for the food and beverage side, I think.

[B]

Right, Exactly. I didn't know as much about the food and beverage side. And then after working for a Few of the big hotel brands, like a Hilton Hyat, there was kind of like a formula to how things were done there. They're also such big companies where sometimes I always felt like, oh, am I really making an impact? Because they're these giant companies and I mean massive teams, marketing teams of 500 people and you're like, oh, what am I actually contributing? And then so from there I really decided that I did love the hospitality industry, but I wanted to see a different side of it. So I kind of looked and turned to restaurants to kind of add that additional layer of hospitality to kind of my career, my resume. And that's when I started to go down the restaurant path.

[A]

Yeah. And this is a cool part, I think for a lot of people in their career, their journey of like, it's like the Venn diagram of like, what are the things I like and how can I get this, like these circles, these to like overlap and like create a niche for myself. So. And I'm tempted to get into like the, what you learn and how you grew as a marketer. But I feel like the nuances of marketing have changed so much. Like the, the five Ps are still the same. Right. But the details of how to market and what works for strategy today is probably not the same. Probably not the same as the formula that worked for a Hyatt or the Hilton.

[B]

No, not at all. Like, if I look now at some of the things that we do for lanes and what I've done for just previous organizations and it's so visual, it's so video driven. Content, content, content. Like there's never enough content, there's never enough pieces of creative pieces of assets to really highlight your product and in turn also storytell through kind of video imagery. That didn't exist when I started. So that's definitely an evolution in the game. It was, it was very, very static back then. You know, digital wasn't really part of the marketing mix back then. It was still a lot of like print advertising. Broadcast was number one. I don't know any brand really, especially on the hospitality space, buying broadcast advertising, regular tv. I mean, you used to watch super bowl ads and that was really cool. No one's really making commercials per se anymore.

[A]

It's definitely every day they're making a commercial.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Social media.

[B]

But it's not this, it's way more achievable, way more attainable. Before, you know, only the big, the top brands like Coca Cola, Budweiser, Pepsi, they could really play in this space. And now anyone can yeah, well, just

[A]

like the five P's were a thing and will always be a thing, there's this other role of marketing that whoever spends the most money wins.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That hasn't gone away.

[B]

That hasn't gone away. It's just in the way in which they're doing it.

[A]

Right. But if there is any, in my opinion, good part of social media and social media marketing is that it has leveled the playing field a little bit in being able to reach people and target people.

[B]

Right. You're not wasting impressions, you're not hitting people that aren't your core audience. Like there's so much more, it's marketing is so much more data driven than it was before. You can like if I know, and I do know, we know who our guest is, we're actually doing a whole brand study, brand project, brand work for Lanes to really hone in on who our core guest is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But with that data you can then really be more efficient with your spending and target the right audience and make

[A]

sure I want to dive deep into that. But before we start really unpackaging Lanes and the work you're doing today, any points of evolution, any thing worth mentioning relative to your story and in your come up to get to this point?

[B]

I think, I think Covid was a big turning point in I think with many, not even just from a marketing perspective, but just is this industry going to survive? So I think that was a big turning point of really kind of diagnosing my career and if this is, if this made sense anymore, if I really wanted to still do this and then come to find out a year later. 2021 was probably a lot of restaurant companies most successful years in terms of revenue. I was with SDK Steakhouse at the time and it was a record breaking year for them. So it then kind of reinforced and validated that there is still hope the restaurant industry lives on and can still thrive.

[A]

What year was this?

[B]

This was in 2021.

[A]

2021.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

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[B]

You know, I, I didn't because I think it was still a bit scary after Covid and a bit uncertain. So I think it was just navigating what this sort of like new world looked like after Covid and hoping that the restaurant industry would still sustain and live on. Because I think there at some points there were some doubts that this was going to be different and dining was going to change. And especially with all the the crazy things that happened during COVID of outdoor dining and or not being able to dine in and take out delivery, like those weren't really as important for restaurants before COVID And now you hear about, you know, 30% of a lot restaurants revenue are coming from takeout and delivery. Third party delivery, exactly.

[A]

Yeah. Your last three titles prior to your current title of VP of brand marketing were brand marketing, Director of Marketing and director of Hospitality Marketing. Were you doing different things or is that all? Basically, were you doing the same thing?

[B]

Very similar, but just different brands, different organizational structures from company to company. Yeah, for the most part quite similar.

[A]

Is Hardwood a hotel group?

[B]

Well, they own a hotel, but they are at their core real estate development company and they own several office commercial real estate office towers in downtown Dallas. And then their first floor was all restaurants. So they kind of built restaurants more as an amenity to help drive leases for the office things a lot of mixed use. And then it was all within a 19 block radius of Dallas walkable city blocks called the Harwood district. So everything was within each other. So it was almost close to 20 restaurants. And they're all within kind of the same neighborhood and vicinity. So it's an interesting model. Very different from more of like a traditional restaurant or hospitality group because they weren't a hospitality group at its core. They over time with the number of restaurants they had created a hospitality division.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then could kind of kind of put. Put their stake in claiming that they're a hospitality group. And then in 2023 they opened a luxury hotel called Hotel Swaxon.

[A]

Okay. So it's safe to say that the, the closest to what you're currently doing today was likely with Sandoval or Sandoval Hospitality in the one group hostel where they had like restaurant brands that you were marketing. And then you got a little bit away from that, that. And then he came back to it and nothing like Lanes, nothing.

[B]

This is my first fast qsr. Yeah. I've always been in full service, always been in more kind of like the luxury segments. And so this is definitely new territory, new waters.

[A]

And this is new for you. Congratulations. I should be saying because it was in December or October.

[B]

October.

[A]

So this is still like we're what four or five months in. Yeah. So what was it about Lane? Like how did this opportunity even land on your radar? Was it on your. Or were you headhunted? Like how did they.

[B]

I was headhunted. It was actually a referral from old colleague at SDK that referred me that we're looking for somewhat a marketer in the Dallas market. And at first I was like no way, I'm not going to go work for a chicken finger brand. There's just no way what changed. And then I really looked at the state of where restaurants are full service. It's a tough, tough business. Profits are so, so thin and I think with inflation and just where kind of just the general economy political driven issues as well. Full service restaurants are really having a hard time and people's wallets, their share of wallet is really getting pulled back during you know, whether all these times with so much inflation. And so I was like what's really thriving? I'm kind of doing all the or getting all this data from third parties like OpenTable from the Restaurant association really showing that QSRs are thriving. They're not having the issues of double digit declines year over year like the full service industry has. And so that kind of intrigued me of I kind of want to be part of like that's something this area of growth. This area. Exactly. And it was exciting just to I think be part of an organization that has, has so much prosperity, like so hopeful, you know, the future super bright

[A]

potential young company that you can grow with.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And. And you were with legacy brands.

[B]

Exactly. I can actually put my mark on it.

[A]

Right, right. Like what do you. Sorry, I cut you. Sure I keep going.

[B]

No, no, it's. I thought it was like a great opportunity given this phase and kind of the stage of where the company is to really have impact and growing the brand and shaping what it will be in the future.

[A]

And that's what I wrote down. And I don't know if you saw me typing earlier today. You said I can really make an impact. I can have. Have. I feel like I'm contributing and that's a human need. And you're getting into this company early on when there are. There were like 40 locations.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So like you can really. So are in terms of marketing, like what in the marketing department, like what is your marketing department? What does that consist of?

[B]

Yeah, it's myself, I have a director of marketing, a marketing coordinator. We have a PR agency that we outsource. It's a third party. It's not internal. And the same right now with, with design and branding. We are, are working with agency partners.

[A]

So you're at the, the peak of the marketing. So why VP of marketing if like who's the president of marketing if there's no other buddy.

[B]

There isn't. It's. I report directly to Garrett who's our CEO.

[A]

I will never understand how we develop titles in this industry. Like I've tried to understood it and then I started to realize like I don't think there is any consistency.

[B]

There isn't.

[A]

Yeah. So VP of marketing. So I guess basically if the company continues to scale, you would hopefully move into the president of marketing and then you would find your replacement is probably what would happen is you would elevate and create void within that new position.

[B]

Yeah. I think right now just given the size of the company, there isn't that space right now to to have like a chief marketing officer or someone C suite level for marketing. So I think over time that would potentially happen. You know, we have 40 locations right now. We're going to end the year close to 80. Around 80. And then we've sold, we've already sold 350 units. Which will open in the next five years. So there's a lot of potential and a lot of growth to be had. So I think with that will also come different, you know, career opportunities.

[A]

Yeah. So headhunted, this brain falls in your lap. You're like, I don't know. But then you started thinking about it, well, the way that the world's moving and the trends and longevity and I can make an impact and I can feel like I'm contributing, and this is a momentum brand. Like, maybe there's something here. What sold you on Lanes once you started having the conversations, what was it about Lanes that you were like, oh, yeah, sign me up?

[B]

I think Garrett Reed, our CEO, he was just. I thought he had. He's just a visionary. Like, he had. He had a vision of where he wants to go, and so it's a very exciting kind of train that you're getting on.

[A]

What was the vision he was telling you of?

[B]

Just tremendous growth. Like, he wants to be the biggest chicken finger company in America and wants. Wants to build a team of great people with expertise to kind of come along the ride and. And create that with them. So it was like, it was very much sold as. It's not just a job. You're a partner in this and you have a lot of autonomy and really, like a blank page to shape this brand. And so that was very exciting of having that creative freedom to really be able to. To make this incredible.

[A]

How do. How important do you think creative freedom is?

[B]

I. For me, it's very important. I think a lot of marketing right now is a lot of right brain, left brain. It's a lot of, you know, selling rule, a lot of rule followers.

[A]

That's the part of marketing I hate. I'm not a good rule follower.

[B]

Exactly. And so I think for me, at least, I want to be able to fulfill that creative side, that creative need.

[A]

So, yeah, as you scale and, you know, understanding how important creative is and understanding, you know, how you felt when you didn't have that creative outlet? What are your. Do you guys ever talk about how do we keep that level of feeling like you can make an impact and contribute all the way through the organization? Like, how do you. Is that on your radar?

[B]

Definitely. Especially with how we're about to reposition the brand. That won't just. That doesn't just stop with marketing or the visuals or the brand identity that needs to be pulled through to every aspect of the organization. It has to be translated through to operations, how we train it, the overall brand culture. Like, I Think that's what's, what gets very misconstrued in marketing is that branding only falls and sits.

[A]

Bound to happen, don't worry about it.

[B]

With the marketing department, it's really kind of of this 360 all encompassing philosophy. And what creates great brands is you have cohesion and consistency throughout every consumer touchpoint and they can feel it and it's kind of this tangible and intangible emotion.

[A]

So what, five months you've been with this company. Right. So Garrett inspires you with the vision and feeling like you can contribute and feel like you can be, make an impact. What was it about the brand itself that you were like, I can work with this?

[B]

I think because I loved that it had kind of authenticity and roots. Like it was somewhat of a heritage brand. The brand was incepted by Mike Lane in 1994. And so it had this like this kind of personality, this authenticity about it that I saw that it wasn't being pulled out and showed guest facing. And I was like, I think that there's really cool ways or a lot of exploration that that can be had to really bring the brand to life and really highlight that brand personality that isn't happening today. And so to me, I thought that was a really unique and exciting opportunity.

[A]

You thought that there was an opportunity in the sense that Lane wasn't putting forward enough the history, the legacy of the brand.

[B]

Yeah. And just, and just kind of having a point of view. When I look at just QSR and just the chicken category, I see what I refer to as like these very, very plastic brands. Like there isn't a story or any history or roots behind it. It's just, it's just a, it's just a place kind of thing with, with a logo and cool interiors. It's not necessarily any real heritage or ties behind it. Backing story, no story.

[A]

Right. And I think, think, you know, it's actually like really the story behind Lanes and the adjacent brands is kind of interesting where at first glance you're like, what the heck is Lane's chicken fingers trying to do? Like this is an oversaturated market. Like this isn't in no way Blue Ocean effect. You got clear front runners right now in the space nationwide with Chick Fil a and Canes hot on their heels, scaling like crazy. But then you look at, you're like, you know, like, who's this new guy?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then it's like, well, wait a

[B]

second, they're not that new.

[A]

They're not the new guy. As a matter of Fact, they're around since 1994, before any of the other guys. I don't know when Chick Fil a started. Do you know when they.

[B]

I don't know when Chick Fil A started, but Raising canes started in 1996.

[A]

Right. So now there's. So to the point in with Raising Canes. There's the story between, you know, Mike Lane and I can't remember what the hell that the. The founder of Canes is, but there's a tie. There's actually like history there where that it wasn't just around, but it was the inspiration for.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and I think all that. I don't know how you can pull that into the world of marketing. How much of that you can disclose without making it weird.

[B]

But like, we do a little nods. Like, if you go into restaurants, you'll see little nods to Raising canes.

[A]

Todd Graves.

[B]

Todd Graves is. Is the. The CEO of Raising Canes.

[A]

So how much inspiration. Not only has it inspired, inspirated the continued evolution of Lanes, but it also inspired all these other brands too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is kind of like. So it's like you have this like, OG Aspect.

[B]

Exactly. And I think there's this kind of like, grit about Lanes. Like, if you think about it started. Lanes was founded by two college kids. And if you just think about the behaviors, the lifestyle of a college kids, they're kind of unhinged and just trying to figure out life. I think there's a real opportunity to kind of play into that that feels real and genuine versus some of these. Like Chick Fil A. There is. I don't think anyone knows the story of Chick Fil A or if there even is a story or just. It was kind of this corporate brand.

[A]

I don't even know how to spell Chick Fil a. Is it F, E, L, A Chick Fe Space. Oh, Chachi. People figure it out. Chick Fil A,

[B]

it's like. And lots of high.

[A]

That was. I was way off. That was so embarrassing. So it was actually founded in 1990 or so in 1946 by.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Chew it, Cathy.

[B]

Okay. And I don't. I don't think any Even hardcore Chick Fil A loyalists, which there's many. Right. I don't know if they could recall that or have any.

[A]

Well, originally it was the Dwarf Grill, later renamed as the Dwarf House. And then the first restaurant using the Chick Fil a opened in 1967 in Atlanta Mall. So that's the history right there. I wonder. Okay. If you'd like. I can also Share how it became nationwide. Yes.

[B]

Well, they went into franchising.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think that's another part about Lanes is that while it was hatched, incepted in 1994, it didn't really become the company it is now until Garrett Reed bought it and then turned it into a franchise model.

[A]

Got it. And it wasn't until the 1980s and 90s that they. They did their stone, their standalone concept of Chick Fil A. Before that, they were in malls.

[B]

That was the company skilled.

[A]

Just fun, fun facts. Yeah.

[B]

Learn something new every day.

[A]

Cool. So back to how we started today's conversation. Just remind us again your responsibilities. The things that you get, like telling the story, developing the brand. Like the things like. Like the things that when you sold yourself to them or they were kind of trying to sell themselves to you. Right. Like what? Like what was that? Yeah. When you're talking about what is our life going to look like together going forward, like, what did that conversation look like?

[B]

I think the main kind of core focus coming in was to really build up the brand, to be able to kind of keep up with this extreme growth. And so what I kind of identified and kind of discussed with Garrett and Samir in the interview process was that this brand has no cohesion. Like you, You. You walk into one lanes, it looks nothing like the next. It's. It was very fragmented.

[A]

And this was in 2024.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So relatively new. I mean, at this point, there's 40 locations. That's kind of scary.

[B]

Well, yeah. Well, actually, even just when I joined in October, there was 30 locations where we have in 10 units in the last two months of the year. So kind of the opportunity I saw is like, we need to get ahead of this. We need to kind of tidy up this brand, like really tighten up, make it cohesive, really understand our audience really, you know, really based on our audience insights and who our core guest is. Really present the brand in a way that's relatable and that resonates with them. And it's. It becomes very expensive and almost just this ginormous thing to undergo when you now have 500 units.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So start small, start small. Dial it in, dial it in. One step at a time.

[A]

And then just like creating a recipe for a chicken finger, you gotta dial it in, make sure it's consistent. You're creating a recipe for brand experience.

[B]

Exactly. A recipe for brand experience. And then how that then seeps out into the world and how we tell

[A]

our stories and how to make that replicable.

[B]

Exactly. Replicable. And get and gain buy in too from the franchisees. That's also a core part of our business. We have, you know, essentially two customers. We have the everyday guest and consumer that's buying chicken fingers. But we also have respective. Yeah. The franchisees that are buying into this brand and so they have to believe as well.

[A]

And I'm going to try to keep those two subgroups separate as we go forward. And how you're approaching this, I mean it's only been five months right now.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, because learning a lot. Yeah. I am kind of curious to pull back more layers on when you came in to do this kind of like audit, you said that there's no consistency. Can you give us some examples of where there was opportunity for growth where they just weren't quite hitting it yet. Yet.

[B]

Yeah. I think if you just look at the visual identity of the brand, like our fonts color palette, it feels like it's from 1994. It was like the brand was purchased. But nothing really evolved to the 2000s or even the late 2000s. So it's. We're just, I don't think landing visually with who our core guest is. And I still believe we're undergoing a lot of uncovering a lot of who our guest is and refining that. But starting out in Texas A and M and College Station, I think one of our primary kind of cohorts or Personas is a college student. And so you know, college students are, you know, between 18 to 22. Like you kind of have to. The brand needs to grow with them as they grow. And the brand visually and some especially esthetically in our stores felt like you were going back in time to 1994.

[A]

Yeah. How do you find that balance of paying homage to the original inspiration, the brand and evolving to appeal to the current target market?

[B]

Yeah, I think visually you just have to. It's modernizing the brand and getting it ready for growth relatable today's consumers. But then the history can be pulled through through your storytelling and you can do that. That through, you know, multi channel across all of our channels.

[A]

Like through little so more the emotional side.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Of the brand. The, the. The to your point, the history of the story but then the subconscious influencing like being drawn with image and font. That is the stuff that you can tweak to hit a market. Exactly. So you had this logo behind you right now. This is the original as far as since I've been aware of lanes. That's the same logo I was looking at before you came on.

[B]

That is Esther Chicken.

[A]

Yes. So are you playing with this right now to change this, or are you talking more about the font within the store?

[B]

More like our typography color palette. Like right now. Our color palettes.

[A]

Yeah. Real quick, if you're listening to this, if you head over to YouTube and subscribe to our channel while you're there, she literally has the logo right over her right shoulder.

[B]

And this is actually not our logo. This is our brand stamp. This is Astro Chicken behind you on the wall. Yeah.

[A]

This might be dangerous. I might regret this. So now I'm lifting the camera up and there's a logo on the wall behind her in the office. I think that is your current logo.

[B]

That is current logo. So we are. We have refined the logo. I don't really believe in totally scratching a logo and starting from scratch. I think you lose a lot of equity there. Like if you look like. Look at some of the most iconic brands in the world, like a Coca Cola, for example. They've kept their same logo for the last, whatever, how long. They've been around 100 plus years. So it's not so much the logo, it's more everything that kind of pulls it together. So Astro Chicken actually evolved much later. It didn't start in 1994. It came with kind of the new wave, like the new lanes, essentially. And he really symbolizes our brand culture and how we should behave as humans. So it's not a chicken because we sell chicken. We're not trying to humanize the product that we sell. It's a chicken because the chicken is the most ridiculous, carefree, very silly animal on the farm. It can't really fly, really doesn't do a whole lot, just kind of waddles around. So it's. It kind of represents, like, how we should be as humans. Like very carefree, fun, easy, go, lucky. But in business, you can't be a chicken. You won't be successful. So that's why it's encapsulated with the space helmet. Because the space helmet's probably the most.

[A]

Most.

[B]

One of the most difficult things that you can do in the humankind. If something goes wrong, you essentially die. So you have to have a lot of precision, dedication, care, discipline, discipline, strategy to go to space. So it's kind of that yin and yang, the juxtaposition of being fun and carefree. But then when it comes to business, be a bit more serious and. And have that, you know, helmet on. So it's that balance. So he was a Asher Chicken was a brand stamp that really started Internally for brand culture. And then people really think it's quite fun and cool. It kind of looks like it's hand drawn, like a tattoo or like tattoo art.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's really been pulled through to be more external facing as well and then became part of a secondary logo lock up app. So we're definitely exploring kind of just what do we do with Astra, like how do we make this more meaningful or more present within the brand or should it kind of scale back and just become more internal? So that's a lot of the. The kind of the research that we're diving into right now currently.

[A]

So back to when you first landed here five months ago and you're like looking around for the opportunity.

[B]

It feels so long.

[A]

I know five months ago, like in the store level of marketing of like the feel, the brand, the look, the like what are some of the. I'm not trying to beat up on what you guys were doing in the past, but like I'm looking for the points of evolution, the points of growth and where we can take these lessons and apply them to our own stores. So like what. What did you see that was a glaringly obvious, like we need more consistency in these areas. This is where you're falling short.

[B]

The number one, like glaring issue was visibility on like on the road. Like we are a QSR qr. A lot of. There's a lot of drive time involved in that and you're seeing it on the side of the freeway or whatever on the side of the road and our brand wasn't popping. When you look at the very competitive QR space and in many markets we are next to a raising canes. It's you know, bright reds and really vibrant signage and really well lit signage. And we are. Our primary brand color is this very dark maroon paying homage to Texas A and M. We were kind of just totally blending in. You look like at a brand like Whataburger that's bright orange, that's screaming at you as you're going 75 miles an hour down a highway. So that to me was the number one thing is that these buildings aren't popping. Like I would never be able to get pulled into the lanes brand as a new guest just by driving down the road.

[A]

So curb appeal or in this game, visibility highway appeal.

[B]

Highway appeal. Visibility road appeal. Just kind of that driving by, getting pulled in, wanting to try.

[A]

You think of Peter's. I think does an amazing job of this. Are you familiar with the P. Terry's?

[B]

I'm not actually.

[A]

They're out of Austin, Texas and it's like this art deco. Like the building itself is looks like you know, straight out of the 50s and like very sexy and like you just like it just stands out. I thought when I first got them on the show that they were a legacy brand that was just around from like the 50s and that's just their. No their ID a 20 year old brand. Yeah. And they just really pop. So like what was. So you said maroon. Why the. The build. The stores themselves didn't really have anything.

[B]

Signage. Signage was, was. Was a bit of an issue. Like we would have a white sign on a light colored background of a building. And so at night the signs illuminate but during the day they just kind of fade in. So we weren't getting that kind of brand rep recognition or that frequency of our brand because it was kind of just fading into the background and being kind of swallowed up by these large corporate brands in these QSR corridors in all these drive markets.

[A]

So I know that you probably haven't had a chance to roll out these ideas.

[B]

A lot of them have already rolled out. Like we're in the development of our new signage package rolling that out really looking at kind of just color balancing and how the use of light is within our signs, the scalability. What does the, the the monument signs or pylon signs look like? Really looking at almost like channel lettering illuminating more space. It's almost like when the letters like pop out. So if it's like on a flat surface they kind of pop out and give like a more three dimensional look

[A]

to create juxtaposition in the space around

[B]

and dimension more dynamic. Yeah.

[A]

So what does that look like? Are you allowed to talk about like what with your attempt to make this pop, like what changes did you change colors?

[B]

We have kind of, we've added. I wouldn't say we've gone away from maroon. I think we're for right now again we're about to do like heavy branding work to evolve the brand. And so we'll see when we do that a lot of very deep consumer research, stakeholder research internally as well to understand like does this, does the tribute or that halo effect to Texas A and M really resonate anymore? Especially now that we've left Texas and we are in other states. I think it's meaningful and people, you know, the Texas A and M alumni culture is very strong. It's you know, very much like a cult following. They're very proud to have gone to that school. But if you didn't and you're not even in Texas. Like, do people care? So that's a lot of kind of the questions that we're trying to uncover through a lot of the consumer research that we're doing at the moment.

[A]

Can you share the colors that you went with and what colors you think are good to pop?

[B]

Yeah, so, right, so we added in, it's not like a bright cherry red, but it's like a dark red. So it really, really complements the maroon. The maroon has remained for now, but it's more of like a secondary or even tertiary color. So it's almost like using it more for trim inside the store or mild, you know, subtle little details within the design of the in store experience. And then, you know, external advertising, collateral, promotional materials, brand assets, things like that, that. So it's I think in some ways still quite unique because when you look at qsr, there is a lot of red. Just inherently red is a color that is a very, is a very strong color in the restaurant space because it does enhance appetite, high energy and also it's supposed to be a hunger color. It makes you hungry. Meat. If you kind of just look at

[A]

food, bright red is very sexy, maybe devilish.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Little prankster.

[B]

Right. You know, which is on brand or like happy. Like if you look at early branding of McDonald's with Ronald McDonald, it was yellow and red. So I think it can invoke like happiness and vibrancy. Vibrancy, exactly. So we're going more with a darker red, I think just to give it a little bit more edginess, a little bit more adult, young adult, and then help complement the maroon. So that's kind of the lanes that we're playing in right now, color wise. So we've added like chevron prints to the exterior just to add that pop of color.

[A]

Chevron prints.

[B]

It's almost like like arrows, like a chevron, like a zigzag print. Kind of done a lot of color blocking on the building. So we're adding in more color. Not just like a white four walls.

[A]

Just breaking things up, breaking up patterns.

[B]

Breaking up patterns. Well, we've added a red kind of LED neon rope lighting on the top of the building so it kind of like glows at night. And then played around just with our signage and lighting of when a sign is on a light colored background that the returns of the signs are red color. And then when it's on a colored background the returns are white. So really kind of playing with the contrast of the of color.

[A]

So we're all just Talking right now, this is like the opportunity that you saw where they could step up their game in terms of curb appeal outside looking in. But we haven't gone into the four walls yet.

[B]

And that was. I think that was a even bigger opportunity, to be fair.

[A]

So when you walked in, like, glaring opportunity, what were the first things you noticed?

[B]

Well, just that it wasn't. There was nothing that was unifying Lanes to be Lanes. Like, there wasn't anything that really connected each of our restaurants together. It was just all kind of. Just a bit random. Like, it was just. The franchisee liked X and that's what the decor of the restaurant was. There wasn't anything that was super unique or original, proprietary to Lanes. And there's no consistency. There was maybe, like, a couple things there, but then even the execution of how it was delivered was not consistent. And I think consistency and frequency are almost like the two pieces that really build great brands.

[A]

Right. And when we're thinking about franchising, we're thinking. I think most restaurateurs, their mind goes to consistent product quality. Like, the actual thing that we're producing, where our head is. How could we replicate a food machine? And we're thinking about up, you know, the equipment, the ingredients and that. We. We kind of go from the inside. Like, what is the actual thing? We start there, and then we think about, like, you know, the footprint and the construction.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

The exact. What they did.

[B]

Like, the design of the kitchens are very unified.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But then just the construction buildings are.

[A]

That's the same vertically integrated group that's doing all the constructions across. So, like, the. The floor plan is consistent for the most part.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But what it has. Wasn't consistent. Didn't have that layer. The lipstick.

[B]

The lipstick was the make.

[A]

The makeup.

[B]

The makeup was a good.

[A]

The final touches. Like, you're cute, but, like, man.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Extreme makeover edition. Yeah. Like, let's make this pop. Like, the boys are not going to be able to say no by the time we're done.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And that's kind of where you come in, where you're like, how do we keep the makeup consistent so that we can really, you know, pull people in? Like, who. Who's that? Like, what's going on with this brand?

[B]

Yep. And that's kind of of the exploration that we're doing right now.

[A]

Yeah. So, like many things, it starts from the inside. The most basic offering, the food. But really what we're selling is an experience, and that experience is what you're integrated.

[B]

Yeah. It all goes hand in hand. Like every single. What creates an experience is kind of like how you feel emotionally through kind of this whole journey, the whole guest journey, from when you pull up to the driveway to how the team member is speaking to you, how they're delivering your food to you. When you open the packaging, what does that look like, how the food tastes? It's not all about food. There's about five sensory touch points that happens before you even take a bite of the food. So really kind of what I'm really trying to do is hone in on every single little touch point. And how do we make that uniquely Lanes.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

And special.

[A]

So back to the specific examples within the four walls. Finding, like what were some of the things, like low hanging fruit. Like, if we just did this in every store, like, that would be awesome. Like, what was that for you? What was the thing that you really fought for?

[B]

I think a lot of our restaurants were quite sterile. So while they looked bright and fresh and clean, they were very sterile. So I was like, pull a lot of pull accents, color accents in. So even like just color blocking accent walls. Really simple stuff. I mean, it's essentially paint. Right. The original College Station location had these clocks. It was a clock wall and they had like funny sayings underneath it. Like one said, mike's mom's house. And it had the time or two hours ago. Mars. It just had these quirky little sayings which I think really highlight and reveal brand personality. So those were in a few stores and now we've made it kind of part of. That's the staple. Like that's a deal breaker that you have to have that most of our restaurants had. So it's almost like building an idea that already was there, but now optimizing, enhancing it, make it better and making it.

[A]

And are you customizing it to be unique to that community where like this is what they were doing relative to the original mic.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And like things that would be. Make sense in this market at this location. Like, how can we take that playfulness and that approach of creating, like, hey, like, you know, it's this time. I don't know.

[B]

Like, yeah, if you're in Austin, Texas, it says that time. Or if you're in Utah, we put that time, I think, really localizing it as well. We do have what we call the lanes wall or the mural wall where we have done custom artwork that really represents the community in which we're in. Or highlights a local school football team trying to integrate that. And I want to continue that because that's authentic. To Lanes. But how do we then it's the execution, like how do we make this now thread through the entire brand so you can have nods and you want to integrate and be part of your community. That's who's, you know, going to be essentially your guest and driving your business, but then still be true to the brand and have that Lane stamp on it too. So that's kind of the dance we're going through right now.

[A]

Relative to the physical in store experience, anything else that you think would be like a good example of what you could do to create consistent consistency across locations?

[B]

Well, I think also, just not, not just internally, but also in how we capture a guest to even get into the restaurant. So what did our advertising look like? What does.

[A]

So now you're talking about a whole nother area of marketing and I want to get into that. But is there anything else relative to the physical, subtle branding in store experience?

[B]

I think just like just how we're displaying menus, you know, again, it goes back to a touch point within the guest experience that all has to be

[A]

uniform and that's where you're tweaking with like the copy or the font, font layout design. What, what kind of font appeals to a 1823 year old right now?

[B]

I think that's what we're going to have to test. I think when we go, when we, we've just, we're in the early stages of brand work, we're in the consumer research phase. Once we get to understanding the positioning of, of like, what is that secret sauce about lanes? Like that makes people want to come back. Like, once we understand that, then what we can do is create a hypothesis of what the brand is, what the positioning of the brand is, and then how that in turn translates visually and then test it and see how guests react.

[A]

So like A and B testing.

[B]

Very A and B testing. I'm a firm believer that, that you really have to take insights from your guests to really shape and evolve your brand. Otherwise it's not going to resonate, it's going to fall flat and you have like a very anemic brand that has no equity and no kind of emotional connection with your core guest. Yeah.

[A]

So before we dive into all the other touch points of where you show up and how you're trying to refine Lane's marketing approach, did they ever say why you, why did they want you? Why do they pick you?

[B]

I think because one of the questions they asked, they were asked, like, what is, what is a brand? Like, what's the difference between branding and marketing and they wanted someone that could understand branding and understand how to build a brand. Marketing was something that I think the tactics were there. Now we just have to optimize and improve our messaging and creative. But I think the marketing, the day to day traffic driving marketing initiatives we had a good foundation for it was the brand that was just kind of a bit fragmented and inconsistent.

[A]

Okay, so you understand both but you you were bringing to the to the team the how do we represent ourselves? With imagery on top of that. Um, this episode is made possible by Sir Boni Siboney is your all in one bookkeeping and financial solution referred to me organically in episode 1200 by Mama Betty's founder Jason Carrier. You gotta hear what Jason had to say about Sir Bon. Anything that comes remotely close to your financials, Sir Boni has your back. Reliable tax preparation and business incorporation, seamless payroll and compliance reports, Strategic CF FO services that drive business growth, detailed customer reporting for complete financial clarity and dedicated support for restaurants and multi location businesses. Did I mention they do bookkeeping? They do it all. This is an end to end financial management solution all under one roof. Let Sir Bony handle the numbers so you can focus on the vision. Call sir boni today at 281-888-2413 to schedule your free free 30 minute consultation and discover how Cerboni can streamline your operations and boost your bottom line. Limited time offer and this is exclusive to Restaurant Unstoppable listeners. Mention this Message and get 20 off your first month of services. This episode is in partnership with Giving Kitchen. Restaurants run on tight margins and even tighter teams. Anyone who's been in the business long enough knows one injury, one diagnosis. This in one family emergency can take a great employee out overnight. That's where Giving Kitchen comes in. Giving Kitchen is a national nonprofit that supports food service workers in crisis. They provide emergency financial assistance and connect workers to resources like housing support, counseling and physical and mental health appointments. Not someday, but when it's actually needed. Since 2013, they've helped more than 35,000 food service workers and awarded over 17 million in support nationwide. This isn't theory. It's cooks, dishwashers, bartenders and servers being able to keep their apartment, get access to mental health resources or cover bills when recovering from an injury. Operators keep Giving Kitchen bookmarked not just in case they ever need it, but because they want their staff to know it exists. If you're in the industry, this is an organization you should know about. Learn more, share it with your team and Find a way your restaurant can stand alongside the work. And@giving kitchen.org you cover. I mean, you're the head of marketing right here. So there's. You literally touch on all of it. What gets you the most excited in terms of things you like to discuss or things that you're doing here that is translatable across all restaurants?

[B]

I think. Really, I think what a lot of. Especially in the restaurant groups, I feel like a lot of organizations don't put enough emphasis or investment on truly refining and building their brand to really serve their guests and understanding who their guests are in turn as well. A lot of restaurants are really just ideas, you know, driven by chefs or chef owners that are just like passion points or ideas that they're interested in, not necessarily kind of retrofitted based on your audience or your market.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I think really delivering a brand that has emotional connection to our ultimate guest is, I think, the difference.

[A]

Is there a balance to be found there, or is it, do you think, just going all in on the guest?

[B]

No, I think there's definitely balance, too. I think there has to be. The points of view of the leaders of the organization really have to be be wrapped in as well. It's really. It's really 360. It's like, what do. How do our guests perceive us? What are they looking for? What. What makes them tick? When and what makes them come to?

[A]

Why us?

[B]

Why us?

[A]

What's it? What is that? Why? And once we understand why they like us, what's. Double down on that.

[B]

Exactly. And I think that's what's missing right now. We have, like, some gut feels of why, but we don't really know. We can't put our finger on when we can't articulate it, that's the bigger thing. We can't articulate it. So if we can't articulate it internally, then how is a guest going to know the one?

[A]

Right.

[B]

And how do we then. And then it's harder to message and harder to communicate. So your marketing strategy becomes a little lackadaisical when you just don't understand the why.

[A]

So it's interesting because I think I like to say behind every great restaurant is a great person and the. The really great brands. That brand is an extension of who that person is and what their values are and what they want to see in the world, and they birth this thing into the world. It's an extension of their ethos. Right. So you don't want to lose that.

[B]

Nope.

[A]

But at the same time, it's like, I'm just putting this out and it seems to be catching traction. What's the tread look like? Like what, where's the mud getting stuck? You know, like. And let's figure out what that magic is so we can really lean into it. And once. So let me ask, the follow up is how do we find out why people choose us? Like, what is your approach to getting that feedback?

[B]

Oh, we're, we're doing pretty extensive consumer research. So right now we just did stakeholder interviews. So it's, it's starting from the inside out.

[A]

So stakeholders being franchisees.

[B]

Franchisees. So we've interviewed a select group of franchisees that are kind of in different stages of the development cycle. Some that have 10 locations, some that haven't built any, some that have a few, some that are in Texas, some that are outside of Texas.

[A]

And you're trying to figure out the why did you invest in this? To get the distill that why and communicate to other potential franchisees.

[B]

Exactly. So it starts with them, then our internal stakeholders, like Garrett, our CEO, like why, why did you buy this brand? I'm really digging in there. Our operations team kind of all, all kind of the corporate members, the key players on our corporate support side, digging into, to their views on the brand. And then. So that was our first phase. We're now then going into consumer research. So we'll do a lot of guest intercepts, just kind of going into the restaurant and asking people questions and understand, asking them why are they here? Like what, what brought them to lanes? What do they like about lanes? Really kind of digging under the hood of the car on the consumer side will then validate that with qualitative and quantitative research as well.

[A]

So is it just literal conversations that you're having with people, like getting people while they're in the store and just like, hey, what's your name?

[B]

That's one phase of it. We'll then do kind of smaller focus groups style, but online, kind of whiteboarding, online surveying, essentially.

[A]

How do you. What's that strategy to get that survey executed and actually completed?

[B]

So you. There's typically like an incentive involved. So whether I was gonna say, yeah,

[A]

hey, get a free sandwich. Fill out this form.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Or you guys don't do sandwiches, but

[B]

get some free chicken or download or, you know, get a thousand bonus points on your app, things like that. Yeah, or gift card.

[A]

So you're trading like, like trading for contact information, like you're offering something of value. Value for value.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Hey, take a few minutes every Day, give us some more information on why you love us and we'll throw you a thousand dollars.

[B]

Yeah, not dollars. Points.

[A]

Hope you get some good information.

[B]

Right,

[A]

so. And you're rolling this out. I mean, again, it's been five months.

[B]

Yeah. So this is where we are right now. And then kind of when you have all these insights from all these different groups, all these different parties, you almost can. You'll start to see patterns. Patterns. And I don't know what those look like right now because we're too early, but it's almost like when you watch CSI or one of these crime shows where they're kind of mapping out evidence and trying to connect the dots.

[A]

Big picture.

[B]

Big picture. It's very much like that. And that's. We should be able to see these patterns and these commonalities and kind of layer them on top of each other to really find like what our North Star is like, what's the, that special sauce that makes us tick.

[A]

Can you segment the different. So we talked about curb appeal, four walls within the store signage. We talked about data and pulling data from key like their stakeholders, I. E. You know, the original founders, the franchisees and the people that are loyal and incentivizing them for the data. What else? Like in terms of the things that get you really excited, what you're doing here, what we can learn from you and your approach to what's. What you think will work here at Lane's?

[B]

Well, I think just, it's a natural fit, I think given the core audience that we know about now being, you know, a college kid or young millennial is, is how they consume media. And if you look at most people nowadays, everything you're just, you just see people on their phone scrolling, so really tapping into, you know, how, how they're just how they show up in their day to day. What are they, what are they doing, where are they going, how are they purchasing, what brands do they love in turn? So I think there's a big side on the digital social media side, the content side that can, can really, it's a big opportunity, I think, for us to tap into and then also reach, reach a new audience or drive awareness because that's, you know, that's one of the things that we're striving for that we don't have relative to competitors is we don't have that market penetration. And so brand awareness doesn't just happen from having a lot of stores. Like you have to kind of go after your guest.

[A]

So your target market is college students essentially.

[B]

Right now.

[A]

Right now.

[B]

That's our belief.

[A]

That's your, you know, that's your best bet, right?

[B]

That's the best bet. That's our kind of gut check feel given where the brand came from and how incepted in. In a college town.

[A]

This is very, it's a very interesting market right now. What are the things that you're noticing about that market that is unique or changing, where to meet them?

[B]

I think just how they're. They have no social skills, how they have no attention spanned and so everything has to be really quick. Bite size. You got to deliver your message really quickly. I think it's also a perfect fit though for Lanes because our brand is so simple. We have you know, essentially one core hero ingredient that we've then created all these menu items with like sandwiches and wraps and other chicken, chicken. Chicken spin off products. But I think we have to keep it simple and that's. I think something that's just part of the DNA and, and the, the lifestyle behaviors that our kind of audience is, is exhibiting.

[A]

Yeah, it's where it's weird. And this is where I'm gonna play devil's advocate again. I don't have the answers but like the whole idea. Again the mission statement of this podcast is to inspire with story to share with people who've done it. It. They say you can do it too, to empower with knowledge and perspective. And I like information, which is what you're doing an amazing job right now. But then it's also to transform the industry and I think to make the industry better, to make it more conscious and to say well do we really want like. So you said something and I agree with you that the. Would they be gen Alpha? Is that what technically gen Z right now is Maybe the next wave of college kids is alpha.

[B]

Yeah,

[A]

you're right that they are socially awkward. That they.

[B]

They're tablet babies.

[A]

They're tablet babies. They. It's almost like we created like this problem in society because of these unprecedented things that emerged like this, the cell phones and like we like, you know, marketing got their hands on that. Like well how can we exploit this to influence people? And then I think as a result we really kind of fudged people up. You know, we exploited their human vulnerabilities and weaknesses to get them information. And at what point do we say do we still want to people up? We recognize that this isn't good for these kids because they have no social skills. And like we, we created this. At what point do we say well why don't we come get, like, why do we continue down this path if we know this isn't spitting out healthy, socially healthy behaviors? Right, yeah. Like, at what point do we stop exploiting the, the human weaknesses and habits to say, well, you know what, what's far enough? I guess.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is me playing devil's advocate, you

[B]

know, I don't have the answer to that, to be honest. I think you've got to swim where the fish are swimming. Right. You've got to kind of play the game a bit.

[A]

Yeah. Or change the game.

[B]

Or change the game.

[A]

Yeah. And that's what I hope we can do eventually. And like, you know, I'm not trying to like, you are playing the game. We're all playing the game. But at what point can we be collectively conscious and say this game isn't working for the masses? You know, it's actually kindering the masses. Yeah, to some extent. Right. But what I was excited about when you started saying, like, this is our target market. At the same time, Gen Z, Gen A or Alpha, whatever it is, there, there's a shift happening where they're consciously choosing to unplug.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Are you, Is that on your radar or am I, am I swinging and missing?

[B]

No, I think that they're way more self aware, I think, than prior generations.

[A]

In what regard? Self aware because they're not socially intelligent. Self awareness is emotional intelligence. Yeah.

[B]

So maybe, maybe self worth is not the right word, but I think they're just more, it's not a social thing, but more in tune of like, what's happening in the world. I feel like some, a lot of, when you speak to Gen Z, Gen Alpha, they're just, they feel kind of more mature than potentially like the, the millennials.

[A]

They've had access to literally anything they're curious about.

[B]

Right. So.

[A]

So the flip side of, you know, having that tablet is that you can't lie to them.

[B]

Right. Like, but they have so much knowledge at their fingertips. They're accessing so much stimulus essentially and getting a lot of information. So they're not, they're not dumb people.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, you can kind of have

[A]

more intelligent the world at their fingertips, literally.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah. So I think that's by good byproduct. Yeah, I think. And what I think is happening is they're like, what the mom and dad, like, you gave me this thing, you've made me socially, like, inept and I. There might be this like, this void where they're like, I don't want this type of influence in my Life I want to be healthier emotionally and I know that the only way through that is through an analog face to face world because that's a happier world. You know, I think that there's this awakening happening and I hope that the extended should markets around that generation see that this is an opportunity to maybe connect with them on a more human level.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that's where kind of just going back to our in restaurant experience, like maybe that's an opportunity for like more dine in versus just on the go on your phone, go through the drive through. You know, I think having that those options and making that a place that they want to stay and experience and socialize in.

[A]

Right. And then on the franchisee side of the marketing things like we're creating a space for you to have a family to work with a team of people that would like to be serious and get the job done but also are a little funny and wonky and have fun, you know, and appealing to that desire to make change.

[B]

For sure.

[A]

So in terms of like the technical rule following stuff like what has your attention. Attention.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Or what are you doing to follow the like what works?

[B]

You know. I never wanted to buy into this and believe in it. And I think it thought it was so ridiculous this whole idea of like influencer marketing tapping into somebody else's following or the fact that anyone actually cares about following these people. I never liked the idea of it.

[A]

Why not?

[B]

It just seems because to me it's become. People think that's a career. Like if you ask a 12 year old today, what do you want to be when you grow up, they'll say a YouTuber. Like that's a real thing.

[A]

It is a real career.

[B]

It has been a real. Before it wasn't. And so I think it hard sell and buying because that didn't exist when I started my career a YouTuber and I don't know, to me it just felt like you're taking the easy way out just being a YouTuber, just kind of just posting videos of yourself doing dumb shit or whatever.

[A]

Well, what, what worries me about that I think it's a hard work as somebody who is a content creator.

[B]

It is hard work and I think I've learned to appreciate it more. But before I was like this is so ridiculous.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like this can't be somebody's job.

[A]

Well, what kind of sucks about that is what it. What gets people's attention also like degrades society. Like the, like the. These people going out into public and doing things out of Just try to get a reaction out of people. Right. Or eyeballs. Yeah. And it's just like. And it's just like, is this making the world a better place? You know, is it. Some can in some circumstances it's not, you know, or people are doing things out of the. Of trying to create the impression of making the world a better place. Like, I'm gonna give this homeless person. Person. 500, but I don't give a. About that homeless person. I want you guys to think I'm great for giving this person 500. And it's about the likes, not the actual. All right, here's your 500. Never see you again.

[B]

Yeah. Or the vanity aspect of it. Like, look at me, look at me. I'm portraying this perfect life, you know? And it's, it's just, it's more like the Instagram life. Instagram versus reality.

[A]

Kind of like what happened with certain brands where like the, the brand has all this like, hey, like, we believe in the this, we believe in this, this, this, this. But the behind the scenes, they're treating their employees like shit.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

You know, you know, what you see isn't always what you get.

[B]

Right. So, yeah, so I had, I initially had a hard time buying into that, but it works like you're basically, it's. You're basically tapping into all these people that care about this one person and now they, now because they're talking about your brand, you have higher propensity of them now of trial to try your brand and potentially fall in love with your brand. So it's kind of this like domino effect.

[A]

No argument that it works. How do you get it to work the best for you? Like, what is that approach to approaching these influencers? What should you budget to get these influencers? What is it like, what does it cost? Like, what do you know about that world?

[B]

Yeah, I think what's shocking is. And sad and not the best or like not a world that I want to grow, but it works. Is that the good ones, the things, the ones that work like the content

[A]

influencers that actually will drive traffic, that actually drive traffic.

[B]

Those, the ones you have to pay, like this organic influence thing or micro influencers, I don't think is even relevant anymore because these platforms are so pay to play as well. And they're very much delivering and serving content based on engagement and the amount of views that profile has, has seen, or that piece of content has seen. So someone with 500 followers is not going to get you anywhere, honestly. And I think there was probably even three to five years ago, this idea like, oh, if we just get lots of people talking about us that have small followers, that it's going to kind of build into this massive sea of reach and impressions. But it just. That's just not how these platforms work. And it's become so pay to play that it's if even if so even with paying for an influencer, you still even have to go and boost your own content too, just to kind of get through all the clutter and be seen. So.

[A]

So back to whoever spends the most money wins.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

It's weird how those rules.

[B]

It's very weird.

[A]

Seem to come back around in waves.

[B]

I guess just now you can be a more efficient. You can target. You can use also just.

[A]

But everybody's playing those same rules. So at some point. Point. What's the differentiator? I'm spending more.

[B]

I'm spending more.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or I'm doing something just different. Your. It's the content, the message that can be different and be unique to kind of grab people. And I think that's where you still have like room to play.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's not so. So tied to budget and monetary investment.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's. How do I, you know, because there is this. The notion of going viral or are you doing things kind of different enough or unique enough to. To kind of push the limits and get those kind of that viral viral following.

[A]

Right. But if you can pay the influencer, then you can also pay to get the marketing expert to help you communicate that.

[B]

Right. And I think with. With a paid influencer right now, I can control what this person says. I have more.

[A]

So yeah. What is that expectation? That's actually a really great topic. So like you, you, you get this budget, you get like this like, you know, hey, hey, here's your budget for marketing. Like go after these influencers. These are the people we want to work with. Once you determine that there is an opportunity to work with this influencer, how much do you influence that message? Like, what's that dance between. Okay, you agree to come into our restaurant to shoot some content. Do they just. You say go do your thing and we trust you or like, what's that look like?

[B]

No, we've literally put together entire creative brief to say like, this is our brand. These are our. These are our menu, core menu items. This is the story of the brand. These are our key messaging points. We would like you to go and shoot xyz and typically someone, myself or some from my team are there kind of guiding that whole experience. And what that looks like so that we have the best.

[A]

So they're there on site. Like saying like kind of working with

[B]

that creator, collaboration, collaborating on like would like you to shoot. We have six sources. I want you to highlight these sources can. I want you to do shots of dipping and really like showing the product. Like a lot of back and forth there of just making sure our core products are highlighted. And then the key messages of the brand are also communicated through. It's also like once their content's developed, they also sending it back for review feedback. It is kind of like having the way I look at it and I think the way that I've been able to accept that this is a good thing and a good strategy and a smart way to approach it is that picking influencers, picking content developers and partners that reflect your brand and can be more of a kind of brand ambassador that are kind of like have similar aesthetics or similar values as your brand and kind of kind of fit in like they are. They're part of the family or friends of lanes and really trying to identify those people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To be more authentic and feel like it's just an extension of the brand and not just a very sterile transaction. Yeah. Used to be a brand fit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't just want anyone talking about Lanes. I want them to kind of live and breathe and look, feel, speak like language.

[A]

Do you have a lot of experience working with these influencers and negotiating rates and like, like what information? Like what, what advice can you give our listeners with like with what they're bringing to the table in terms of the, the, the, the target audience that they have and the amount of people that are following them. Like, like there is that dance.

[B]

There is. So like I think initially just never ever pay flat rate from a media deck, like, or their rate cards. I'm always trying to negotiate that and typically I need to, I need to be proven like why I should pay this.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, I'm a client at this point. So show me your data. Like what other brands have you worked with that are similar, that you've seen great results with it? Show me case studies. Like what. Why should I work with you too? Right. Not just like, oh, I feel so privilege to work with you. Essentially I'm paying you. But like what can. What are you bringing me or showing me that you would be a valuable person to work with and we can develop a relationship from there.

[A]

Like what are some of the different like tiers of like audience size that you've seen that you've worked with?

[B]

Oh, some are, you know. Millions. Yeah, millions.

[A]

What should you expect to pay for somebody with that type of following in

[B]

the millions you're paying in the double digit thousands. So upwards of like 10 to five figure. No, like. Yeah, yeah, five figures.

[A]

Basically like 10,000 above, below a hundred thousand for a post.

[B]

I would never just do a post. It's like I want a real static post and like three frames of stories kind of. So you get more than just a one hit.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then also what I think is important is in this world of social media where everything is so, so visual, you never have enough content. So I always love to ask, can we then have your footage. Yeah. To then repurpose and use as native footage.

[A]

Believe it or not, this is a conversation I actually know a lot about because in many ways I am an influencer.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I don't want to be an influencer. I hate the fact that I get labeled an influencer.

[B]

It's a horrible name, isn't it?

[A]

I just wanted to talk to people.

[B]

Narcissistic.

[A]

Yeah. And, but it's like I'm, I'm. So I've taken all the personality tests. Like I'm also a promoter. Like, like my personality type is I'm not the guy or gal to go do the thing. I'm not gonna, I'm not the technician. I'm not the attention to detail guy. I'm the guy who finds that person and promotes them and say like, I'm not your person for, you know, I'm not the accountant. But here are some great companies that do accounting based off of what I've learned.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So like I never. So what I struggle with as a promoter, I asked. I'm a promoter with like, like inconveniently value, like good values where I want to be transparent. I want to promote good people doing good work. So this is a struggle for me because I've turned down sponsors that want to throw me, you know, six figures of sponsorship and it's just like, well, if I take that money then I can't talk about what I want to talk about and I have to censor the people who I'm going to who are just being open and honest with me if what they're saying doesn't jive with what the sponsor wants.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

So it just creates this world of bullshit.

[B]

It does. It's just you have to vet it out and feed out. Because I think it becomes more authentic though.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because if you then do your thing, talk about and advocate for the topics and brands and People that you want to. That will, I think will come inherently naturally. And then brands like similar brands, again, it has be a fit.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's like dating or a partnership that they will come to you and then it will, it will be authentically aligned.

[A]

Right? Yeah.

[B]

I think that's what's the harder path,

[A]

but the hard way is the better path. What were you gonna say?

[B]

Oh, I think that's where brands kind of get it wrong or kind of fuck it up, for lack of a better word is they're just looking for the vanity. They're just looking for a brandity or partnering with a celebrity because they're, because they're famous. Right. Not because they're not necessarily meaningful to the brand or have any connectivity or any ties or any like commonalities. It's just like where you want to work with them because we want a big name.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then I think that diminishes your brand. You lose equity. It's like borrowed equity. Like yes, maybe you'll get a little hit because you partner with that person, but I don't think that will give you that long term longevity.

[A]

Well, the approach I take as a somebody selling ad space and collaborating with brands that are out there to promote themselves, I start with, I treat, I don't. I used to have a pitch deck.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I had a very standard, you know. But then I started learning more and it's like, well, I want strategic partners. I don't want sponsors. I want people I believe in. And it's like really, if they are a partner, it's like taking the time to listen. Like, what are your goals? Are you looking for impressions? Are you looking for conversions? Are you looking for free media assets? So now I really start with when the companies reach out to me and if they've been referred to me organically or if I can do some research to, to vet that sponsor to make sure that they are a good company that I'm promoting. I'm putting my brand on that.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

If I promote a company and they're not a good company or they don't say who they are and they screw people over. I just lost trust. It took me 13 years to build that trust. And now I'm promoting into the service that. That's robbing them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't want to do that.

[B]

And then it's not believable to people that are your audience following you.

[A]

It lowers my value.

[B]

It does.

[A]

If you're playing the long game, you don't want to do it. It takes 13 years to build trust. It takes one experience to lose trust.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

So you know, it's really about like, okay, like you want, you're looking for content. Like you don't have the ability to create content. Well, I am looking for amazing people to make an example of who are your biggest brand ambassadors. That if I were to get on the show, they would make my audience better by sharing their story. And if they use your service, then maybe I can get a testimonial and that's like organic. Right. And like they, I would be promoting that restaurateur or learning from this restaurateur, regardless of whether or not they use this. But you just so happen to be a client of the service that's a sponsor. Well, let me see if I can't get a testimonial here.

[B]

You own that kind of this like yeah, organic domino effect.

[A]

And that is the harder path. Without a doubt. But it's also more effort.

[B]

But. Right. It's more strategic and yeah, well, you

[A]

know, but I think that all influencers should work like that.

[B]

They should, frankly. But a lot of just grabby, grabby, grabby.

[A]

Right. So know that as if you are buying media that you do, you should ask that influencer. If they're not asking what your goals are and what your objectives are, then ask like to, to you know, make sure that that is on their radar. Because it should be.

[B]

It should be.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And you can, can very easily tell too if this is going to be a fit. Like we vet all of our influencers ourselves where I'm not using a third party, it's very time consuming and I can eyeball their content, see if this is the right look and feel that I want to achieve. Is the tone of voice correct. Are they essentially living our brand values? Are they carefree? Are they having fun? Are they kind of dry, witty, have a sense of humor and then, and then kind of then do their outreach and then ask the more data driven questions, engagement rate, impressions, all of that. But kind of start off of just really kind of cherry picking who, who are the ones who are people and who are the content developers that really speak your brand right.

[A]

Now back to playing devil's advocate. I love playing devil's advocate. One of my concerns with this approach to marketing that seems to work in the moment, very reactive like this works now. What are we building long term that's not going to work for the industry by lifting up that way of doing business by enabling these influencers that have so much control.

[B]

I think the bad part about it is, it's like when, when is enough enough? Or like when is. When does it get just too diluted and you just kind of fall flat and. Or you're going after the same content developers as a competitor and they don't even care that you're, that they're kind of dabbling in the enemy, you know, for those brands. I think that's, that's the dangerous part.

[A]

Right. And that's something I can relate with too because you know, I get a lot of companies that are referred to me so like having that language of like I'm not, you know. Vendor agnostic.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, and being upfront about that. That.

[B]

Exactly. I think that's what's, I think that's what. Where a brand has to just do their research and then create boundaries or guardrails for yourself. Of like if, if I see a influencer that's working heavily with a direct competitor, like does that make sense for me? How am I differentiating? How is it.

[A]

Yeah. In, in smaller markets where you have like a hyper local, like say, you know, like New England influence influencer. Right. The, the likelihood that they promote a company or restaurant similar to yours in this massive, you know, regional but massive market is pretty good. It is like they're gonna have more than one pizza place on the show.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, they're gonna have more than one donut spot on the show. That's good content because it's sexy. Everyone like pizza and pizza and donut content. You're gonna get 10, 000 followers out of the gates because people love pizza donuts. They're going to have other people like that. So you can't expect that not to happen.

[B]

No. But you have to be selective. And then the other approach that we've started to take that's a little less on the social media side is just really honing into the local community and tapping into real people that are not social media influencers but are influential in their community members and kind of driving brand advocacy that way and using them as brand ambassadors to kind of then spread the word about lanes within their local community. So getting a lot more, I like that approach grassroots and a lot more kind of authentic within the, you know, three mile radius of our restaurant or that just that essential local community.

[A]

Are you familiar with the Real Tacos brand out of Atlanta?

[B]

I'm not.

[A]

They do phenomenal job in social media and they do work with important influencers and they, they started playing with this idea. I don't know. I haven't spoken to Them in a little bit. But their approach to influencer marketing was going to the people in their restaurant and saying, I will give you a hundred dollars and a gift card or whatever. Like they're regulars, like their most loyal people. And they, if they, if you just create a 60 minute or sorry, a 60 second reel or you know, whatever, three minute reel. Just talking about why you love us so much. And here's your gift card. Card.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But what ends up happening is that person that keeps coming like you know you want to. 80% of your revenue comes from 20% of your guests. Right. So if you have this person who is like high on your list of regulars, that is your demographic, meaning the people that they talk to, the people that they engage with are also likely your demographics. So they might only have a thousand followers on Instagram, but it's going to be a thousand followers of people just like them. Them in your market.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And it's only costing you a hundred dollars, $50 gift card. Right. So like it's hyper focused. You're rewarding somebody who's already loyal to you and you're making them more loyal and you're giving them an opportunity to see them publicly as somebody who you have a relate. Like we all want to be seen and valued. So it hits harder, it creates more loyalty and it's a super target. Targeted. Yeah, I thought that was, I, I love that approach. And it feels good.

[B]

It does.

[A]

You know, it's not sloppy.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's not yucky.

[B]

Right. So we're kind of, we're, we're exploring that and doing almost like a case study around a certain market that we've entered, like a new market. So Utah is a new, newer market. We are exploring that and identifying people that can kind of really just advocate for us.

[A]

So it's trying both. Right. And seeing what works. Yeah. But back to this idea of devil's advocate and what happens if we lift up the influencers? My concern is that we're creating an ecosystem, a marketplace where today consumers are more loyal to third party platforms than they are to the actual restaurant themselves. Examples of third party platforms or marketplaces would be like delivery.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where like a lot of Uber eat or doordash eaters are loyal to the app. App for the convenience and the, not the brand. Right. Like, oh, I can turn the app on and it already has my habits in there. And I just tap one thing and it shows up. That's so nice that you're more loyal to doordash than you are to the actual Brand the, the person in your community that you should have a relationship with. Like that's backwards, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Other third parties are award platforms like Michelin and James Beard. Weird. They have so much influence and then you get this type of eater, like this elevated eater that's more about thrill eating and going to the latest hotspot. And they're not loyal to the restaurant, they're loyal to the award platform that they have all this trust in. So it's human. It's. It's almost like these third parties are leveraging human behavior in. We live in this world where we're surrounded by tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people. We're only human. I can't, I don't know who to trust.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I have to go to these third party aggregators to know who to trust when. It's just like. It's weird, man.

[B]

But it's, it's, it is really weird too because especially now, Tik Tok, I think is like a perfect example where

[A]

another third party social platforms, Instagram, Google's another third party.

[B]

I, I feel like people are using now especially for more experiential things like food or whatever, where to stay. They want to see it before they go. So people are. Instead, people used to be like restaurants near me or best chicken fingers near me on Google and you pull it up in maps. Now you can just do it on TikTok and you see content of that actual restaurant that a certain concept. Best pizza near me. I can get all the pizza places in Dallas and I'm pretty sure, you know, hundreds will pop up. And then you're now able to interact and visualize all these places before you even go and make your selection that way. Way.

[A]

But here's the other part of that again. I love playing devil's advocate. I love everything you're saying is fantastic, by the way. But I'm just, I like to be that. Is it the best place in town or is it the best place at marketing?

[B]

Marketing.

[A]

Did they get like, you know, some kind of inheritance where they can go take like that inheritance money and buy influencers to convince the world that they're the best?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So like what, it's just like, it's just so easy to manipulate into, is distort reality on these platforms. And when we buy into the system, we're supporting that system, I think sometimes at our own demise.

[B]

Yes. You know, and, but sometimes it works, right?

[A]

You know, I just like to have these conversations. This is, this is just kind of

[B]

some of it's Tried and true.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then I just think as long as you're authentic with it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And trying to still make sure that you're not so off the cusp of your own brand, like you're, you're staying true to your brand, then I don't think, I think you sometimes have to play the game.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean we're, it's the game of business. Right.

[B]

Because essentially we, we need to get butts and seats.

[A]

Right. And I think that we're all playing this game. I think what not everyone's aware of is that we get to also influence the rules of the game. Generally it's the, the people at the high, like the highest levels of society that really have the influence to control the names of the game, the way it's played. So how you see that today is like Google's really controlling the game. Meta is really controlling the game. And I think that at the end of the day, we have to make sure that the restaurant owner is the beneficiary of the game. Game, not the top.01% of the people that control the game. And they're controlling the game to their advantage, their benefit, let's be honest. And that's how the game works. But the only. But there's, there's strength in numbers.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And that's what we have in our favor. So our consumer behavior, as in restaurant owners putting our time and energy into resources. They need us.

[B]

They do.

[A]

At the end of the day, they need the restaurants. We're a part of the equation that I don't think is the beneficiary. All these adjacent people make money off the industry. Influencers award companies. The Google, like the people selling the ads to the restaurants. We have to make sure everyone in that chain that, that link wins.

[B]

Yeah. I think restaurants can though. I think it's just how they approach it. Like if you're really savvy in highlighting your own delivery platform or online ordering system that benefits you, that is revenue going to your restaurant. So I don't think it's all bad. It's not always benefiting somebody else. It can directly benefit you, but definitely it is at a cost. But that's the world of advertising. If I wasn't putting those dollars and spending on Instagram Meta TikTok, I would have been putting it in broadcast TV or radio or print. It's, it's, it's still advertising. It's just changed in the format and vehicle in which we're doing it.

[A]

Yeah. I would say the only difference between now and 20 years ago is that those advertising agencies have conglomerated into smaller entities.

[B]

Yes, they have.

[A]

So we're making the rich richer and the poor poorer. And back, you know, in the 90s, like, there was a local magazine, a local, you know, media outlet, radio station. So, like, it was still more local and there was a better distribution of wealth.

[B]

I think kind of a lot of radio and broadcast. It's, It's. It's at the helm. It's a massive conglomerate.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It might be your, like, ABC affiliate or NBC affiliate, but it's owned by NBC Universal.

[A]

We'll never eliminate hierarchies.

[B]

Hierarchies are just kind of what America is.

[A]

Well, I think it's. It's. I think the universe is a series of hierarchies. I'm reading Ken Wilbur's book, A Brief History of, like, everything. It's like a really interesting book.

[B]

Book.

[A]

He starts that book talking about, like, one of the first, like, fundamental truths is like, everything in the universe is a Holland. H, O L, O. Wait, H, O, L, O, N. Holland. And the definition of a Holland is something that is whole on its own, while simultaneously a part of something greater.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that in itself is a hierarchy. But the universe is made up of Hollands that are connected to each other in some way. And there's always hierarchies of Hollands. So the. The high, like Hollands are always ascending or descending. So as a Holland ascends, it's moving higher up that hierarchy. So you can't have the universe without hierarchies. But how do we create hierarchies that aren't dominant, controlled and more communal? Controlled and, like, consciously built to designed? I don't know. I think too much about this stuff.

[B]

We've gotten very deep.

[A]

I know. It's. It's. I'm trying to find answers. The more I get into it, the more confused I get. I'm trying really hard, but I do like hearing people from your. Like, I. I like trying to be proven wrong or to open up my perspective. I think that's really important. So anything we haven't discussed today in terms of what you're doing here that you think my listeners need to hear?

[B]

I think we've covered it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Was this. Was this what you're expecting today?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, cool.

[B]

I think so.

[A]

And these are fun conversations. It's not every day I get to go deep into one organization. You're a specialist. And like, you know, people like Garrett surround himself with these specialists and to learn about the The. The nitty gritties under each one of those subjects that we're going to be talking about today. So we had VP of Operations. We've had VP of Franchise Services. Or was that Services. Op Services. Thank you very much.

[B]

VP of Brand Culture and.

[A]

Thank you. Operations and then VP of Marketing. You. And I'm getting developed. VP of Chief or the. Sorry, the Chief Developing Officer, Eric Reid. Next.

[B]

So Garrett's brother.

[A]

Yeah. This is. This has been a lot of fun. A couple questions before we say goodbye. Unless there's anything else you want to get out, now's the time.

[B]

I think I've laid it all on the table.

[A]

Well, one thing I do want to find out, like from your perspective, what do you think the future of marketing looks like?

[B]

Oh, gosh. I think AI is going to impact it tremendously. I can already see it in just design. A lot of. I think talent is getting replaced by AI. I'm just.

[A]

I had a fun run.

[B]

I know, right? I feel like I just open up Instagram and I'm getting served ads of like, you don't even need a photographer anymore to shoot your food photography or whatever your business is, whatever their product is. You just take something with your iPhone and it can look not great.

[A]

So more just like distortion of reality.

[B]

Distortion of reality and like this fake, fake perception of what you really are and not having that really authentic, true to yourself image.

[A]

Gary Vaynerchuk recently did this interview where the woman is making the argument that AI is going to kill social media. It's the end of social media.

[B]

See, I think it's going to supercharge it.

[A]

Why? How?

[B]

With just kind of the. The searchability of it. I think it's going to make it even more stronger. I don't know. I don't see it going away.

[A]

Do you think that there's going to be a starvation of authenticity in like knowing that everything that you look at isn't just a spinned perspective or narrative, but also like just a complete distortion of reality that is misleading you and that might push people away, but I

[B]

think also people are intrigued, so I think it might also pull them in. I don't know. It could for sure could go both ways. I am not sure my crystal ball is working today, but I think people are going to be more sucked in than put off by it. Interesting, because I even find myself like dipping my toe into trying to learn more because it is very black hole, black box. We don't really know what to think of it yet.

[A]

The way we're using AI In a restaurant unstoppable or how we plan to is I want to double down on the analog side of the world where I to be more present, create more content, do it all in person, but then use the AI to go through that content, to chop that content up. To understand as a tool. As a tool to. To basically to get more short form content, but also to create short form content that my audience wants. Like what is the stuff that people. If we can engage our audience to find out what their interests are, what their curiosity are. Oh, like based off of the demand. Like we recommend that you put this content in front of them.

[B]

Exactly. So yeah, almost like. Almost like polling or surveying.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And kind of dissecting what that is or filtering what those needs.

[A]

So helping from this massive database of content how to like distill it and to deliver more of what people are looking for.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think that's how positive spin. Exactly. Cool. A couple questions before we officially say goodbye. Questions I ask all my guests, what is one thing about Lane's chicken fingers from your perspective in your role, a value, a process, a system that makes it truly unstoppable.

[B]

I think the culture and the people here just how it is very carefree. Like we really are living the values of Astro Chicken in and that's very much reflected day to day in our support office in our leadership team. And it kind of now then flows through down to. To our team members and franchisees to really deliver on that. That hospitality and that. That culture.

[A]

Nice. The mission statement is to change the world through inspiring, empowering and transforming the restaurant industry. And I do think that the restaurant industry can change the world. We're going to accomplish this by changing one restaurant restaurant owner, one restaurant professional at a time. So how have you personally transformed. How are you a better woman today than the woman you were when you got started in the world of restaurant marketing?

[B]

I think restaurants to just the industry at large is so diverse. It's just full of. It's just a cast of characters and I think that just like enriches you. It's. You develop stories and experiences and I think that just like makes you more of a holistic person, more interesting person. And you meet so many walks of life that you probably never would in. In the restaurant industry. It's super diverse, kind of like a melting pot. And I think kind of all those different stories and facets really kind of shape a person.

[A]

I love that. And this is the last question before I have you call somebody out if you got the news you'd be leaving this world tomorrow.

[B]

Oh, gosh.

[A]

All the memories of you, your work, and your, you know, your marketing influence, your marketing impact would be lost with your departure. With the exception of three pieces of wisdom that you could leave behind for the good of humanity and your legacy. What are those three pieces of wisdom? Be.

[B]

Be direct. Like just. Oh, okay. Say be truthful, be honest.

[A]

Is that one or two? Direct, truthful, honest. That's three, technically. Do you want to add more?

[B]

You said I could only pick one.

[A]

Oh, there's those three things that you could leave on.

[B]

Oh, three things. Yeah, just like kind of, I think just direct. Like say what you mean, like just. Just very matter of fact transparent. Thank you. That's a better word. Yeah.

[A]

What's two?

[B]

Two. Integrity.

[A]

What's three?

[B]

And then I think fun, fun, fun. You have to have fun.

[A]

Well, this has been fun.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Thank you so much for really. Let me put you through the ringer, the learning perspective to challenge into. Not to claim to have the answers, but to, to poke around and prod and to try to figure things out together. This has been a good time. Who do you respect and admire in the industry? Who do you look to in this industry and go, dang, if I could just get in the head of that person. I know you're in the world of marketing. It can be another marketer or if there's a restaurateur that you really, it's, you know, admire. Who's that?

[B]

I don't think I have one person and I don't know if, if the restaurant industry is where I look for that inspiration, I look outside of the industry. I don't, I don't know if I believe that restaurant marketing, if there is that one person that does it really well. I think there's brands that are respectable and are doing a decent job, but it's not where I want to find inspiration because I don't to want. Wants to ever be.

[A]

The restaurant industry is a late adopter.

[B]

It's. It is, it's kind of behind so to kind of.

[A]

So who's that person out there that's inspiring you that we can look to for inspiration to.

[B]

I think I look at a lot of fashion brands and I think that's more, more for visual aesthetic, the creative side. That's kind of like where my mind goes and what's. What I gravitate to and then kind of being able to identify like how I can, can translate this, pull different ideas or visuals, trends into the restaurant industry.

[A]

Other restaurant brands out there that you really like?

[B]

I think there's iconic brands. I don't know if I necessarily personally relate to them. Like, I think McDonald's I think is just iconic. It's.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When I think of McDonald's, I think of. Of kind of like America, like the, the American dream. I think it symbolizes that or Coca Cola, those legacy brands, but I don't think they're inspiring me, per se.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, I appreciate the transparency. This has been a lot of fun. Thank you so much. Natalie, how can we connect with you if we really enjoyed today's conversation? If we want to link up with you on LinkedIn or social media?

[B]

On LinkedIn, Natalie Hurley. And then on social media, follow us on lanes and then my personal is N. Hurley 07.

[A]

Beautiful. Thank you again. I cannot do what I do without people like you making time to open up, get on us and share. There is no questioning, Natalie. You are unstoppable.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Cheers. There's another conversation wrapped up here. A restaurant unstoppable. Special thanks to our guest today, Natalie Hurley, VP of marketing, Lanes Chicken. We're going deep into lanes. I'm having fun. I hope you're having fun, too. To Natalie will be joining us live for Coffee with Eric on April 20, 4:20. And she's going to be joined with Eric Reed, their chief development officer. That episode's coming up next. We're going deep into the world of Lanes and I love these conversations. Going deeper into organizations. And I'm curious, what organizations do you want me to go deeper into? If you can think of all the past guests we've had on the show, who do you want me to dig deeper into? I'm listening. I'm paying attention. Let me know. And if you want to join this, this Coffee with Eric session that will have Natalie Hurley and Eric Reed head over to restaurantstoppable.com CWE to be a part of that conversation and then head over to restaurantunstoppable.com live to join this and all other conversations. Plus, get access to our newly released Restaurant Unstoppable podcast app. We have a lot of cool stuff. Our Unstoppable, our access to all bonus content ad free early release podcast content. We're doing some cool stuff here. The community's coming together and we're loving in it and we'd love to have you be a part of it. So that's it for today. Until next time. Peace out.