1270: Ryan Turner, Partner at Unsǔkáy Restaurants

Summary

Podcast Summary: Restaurant Unstoppable – Ep. 1270 with Ryan Turner, Partner at Unsukay Restaurants

Date: April 27, 2026
Host: Eric Cacciatore
Guest: Ryan Turner

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Episode Overview

This episode of Restaurant Unstoppable reunites host Eric Cacciatore with Ryan Turner, Partner at Unsukay Restaurants, a respected Atlanta-based group. The discussion covers Turner's journey from industry novice to an influential restaurateur and community leader, explores the power of adversity and agency, unpacks Unsukay’s approach to growth and people-centric leadership, and delves into the genesis and evolution of The Giving Kitchen—a now-national nonprofit supporting foodservice workers in crisis. Ryan and Eric engage deeply on themes of mentorship, vulnerability, sustainable growth, and redefining industry success. The conversation both inspires and challenges listeners to rethink the restaurant business, with a focus on dignity, leadership, and legacy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening: State of Mind, Beginnings, and Giving Kitchen

[02:35–04:16]

• Ryan reflects on his mood: “I’m feeling good. I don’t know about unstoppable. Highly adaptable but not unstoppable.”
• Eric acknowledges Ryan’s work with Team Heidi and Giving Kitchen, highlighting a $1.45 million fundraising success for Giving Kitchen.
• Giving Kitchen's roots: Originated from raising funds for Ryan Heidinger, a colleague diagnosed with stage 4 gallbladder cancer. What began as support for one became a movement, showing the compounding effect of community in hospitality.

Memorable Quote

“Adversity is the master teacher. It reveals everything we need to know about ourselves.” – Ryan Turner [04:48]

2. Success Mantras & Philosophies

[04:28–08:01]

• Ryan’s mantra, inspired by Napoleon Hill: “On the other side of every challenge is an equal or greater seed of opportunity if you allow it to reveal itself.”
• Discussion on adversity as a catalyst for growth: “You really don’t learn much when the tide is high, it’s when it’s low.”
• The difference between societal expectations of freedom and real agency: true freedom is about responsibility and choice.

Notable Quotes

“Freedom was being able to choose what you want to be responsible for and committed to.” – Ryan Turner [07:25]
“We can choose to be a victim, we can choose to be a participant, or we can choose to be an observer.” – Ryan Turner [07:28]

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3. Unsukay Restaurants: Growth, Model, and Values

[08:16–15:12]

• Ryan outlines Unsukay’s portfolio:
  • Muss & Turner’s (21 years) – the flagship
  • Local Three (15+ years)
  • Eleanor’s (speakeasy)
  • MTH Pizza
  • Warhorse Investments (private dining club); Seahorse Advisors (members-only Japanese concept)
  • Rochambeau (3+ years)
• Emphasis on endurance and community over scaling for scale’s sake; rooted, brick-house growth rather than the “tortoise and the hare” model.
• Approach to labor: Minimum wage set internally at $16/hour since 2021; prioritizing quality pay and environment even at expense of higher profit margins.

Notable Quotes

“We chose to take the path of attracting people that are better at things we can’t do or don’t want to do, to give us quality of life, and we're willing to take less profit.” – Ryan Turner [15:12]
“Paying them well gets them in; treating them well keeps them around.” – Ryan Turner [14:31]

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4. Learning, Curiosity, and the Power of Mentorship

[17:18–19:08, 19:47–22:25]

• Importance of intellectual humility: “It’s possible you’re not right and you don’t know what the hell you’re doing.”
• The more you learn, the more you realize you don’t know.
• Ryan's journey shaped by exposure to books and audiobooks—especially Think and Grow Rich and Getting Things Done.
• Growth by depth, not breadth: Success defined not by number of units but impact and sustainability, with time for family prioritized over profits.

Notable Quotes

“We haven’t built anything with the idea we’re going to scale, we’ve built it to endure... to grow roots.” – Ryan Turner [21:33]

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5. The Importance of Saying No & Intentional Growth

[23:54–25:38]

• Sharing the book Essentialism’s influence: “The clearer you are about what you’ll say yes to, the easier it is to say no.”
• Early career is for saying yes to learn; later, it’s about focused commitment.
• Not every restaurant should scale; sometimes the most meaningful growth is internal.

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6. Ryan’s Path – Adversity, Authenticity, and Agency

[25:38–43:15]

• Personal story: From blue-collar roots in Maine, fascination with restaurants, early burnout and bankruptcy, and meeting his wife, Shelly, who supported him in his lowest moments (“She was with me at my worst... that was the first time I’d experienced unconditional love [besides parents].”)
• Return to hospitality at Food Studio in Atlanta, which started his pathway to ownership.

Notable Quotes

“Opportunities aren’t buttons on a wall. They come from people.” – Ryan Turner [46:25]

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7. Business Launch – The Value of Planning and Vulnerability

[48:17–55:19]

• Importance of a real business plan – facilitated by mentor Alan Jones: “A business plan is nothing but an educated, calculated guess... but the point is to be prepared.”
• Vulnerability is strength: “I see vulnerability as a strength, not a weakness... I don’t trust people who say they know everything.” [53:38]

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8. Pivotal Business Lessons – Adapting Through Failure

[55:19–63:09]

• Muss & Turner's: Opened as a gourmet deli/retail concept. Model failed within months; quick adaptation to add bar/dinner service, leading to success.
• Adversity (e.g., the 2008 recession) forced innovation and focus.
• Key turning points: Introducing successful brunch, learning to “do the hard things,” willingness to “admit your dream wasn’t working.”

Notable Quotes

“There’s nothing like falling $10,000 short of payroll that gets your attention.” – Ryan Turner [56:48]

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9. Expansion & The Cost of Scaling

[63:09–86:38]

• Addition of Chris Hall as a partner and opening of Local Three as a milestone of growth.
• Lessons of failed expansion: Common Quarter, later Must & Turner’s East Cobb, closed after unsuccessful runs—dubbed a “$1.5 million PhD on how not to grow.”
• Honest discussion on the difference between creative growth (getting better at what you do) and unintentional growth (simply chasing revenue or opportunity).

Notable Quotes

“It’s not about the strongest or most intelligent—it’s about the organisms that can adapt.” – Ryan Turner [63:25]
“We made a decision to grow because we needed more revenue and to create opportunity... started ignoring some of the intellectual understanding of things.” – Ryan Turner [81:51]
“Growth just for growth is incredibly, incredibly dangerous.” – Ryan Turner [87:21]

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10. The Giving Kitchen and Community-Driven Leadership

[87:43–97:53]

• Giving Kitchen’s story: From helping one chef (Ryan Heidinger) to a national network.
• Impact: Now serves all 50 states, >38,000 food workers helped, >$17 million distributed.
• Unsukay and the community choose to “put the oxygen mask on our own industry first”—reinvesting success to create a safety net for food service workers.

Memorable Moments

“I’m just a cook, and look around this room—I’ve already won.” – Ryan Heidinger via Ryan Turner [88:09]
“Failure is only failure if you don’t take the mistakes and consciously reflect on them for future application.” – Ryan Turner [85:18]

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11. Self-Work: The Foundation of Leadership

[100:42–104:27]

• Personal transformation after burnout and health scares; importance of self-discipline for long-term sustainability, both personally and for the business.
• Mindset shift: “You don’t really understand how precious it is and what really matters until you face your own mortality.”

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12. Succession, Equity, and Legacy

[104:27–113:09]

• Focus now on solidifying roles, decision rights, and partnerships for long-term continuity.
• Equity for key employees adds purpose and creates passive income/future for those who’ve supported the company.
• Not about family succession or private equity—even death by “a thousand paper cuts.” Rather: building something that can endure, with opportunities for the team.

Notable Quotes

“If you can leave your business for a year or more and it continues to operate without you as well or better, you now own a business.” – [109:48]
“Profits are like oxygen to a human being. You need it, you have to have it. We need to be great stewards of the business... and we teach them, we show them.” – Ryan Turner [133:32]

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13. The Real Restaurant Problem: Dignity and Systemic Defects

[116:10–132:29]

• Giving Kitchen can’t keep up with the crisis of need; the real solution is preventative—fixing root causes.
• The restaurant industry’s boom has led to a “race to the bottom,” human capital crisis, and lack of dignity in many roles.
• Dignity-centered operations: focus on treating people as the product, investing in people (pay, benefits, meaning) even when not “profitable” on the P&L.
• Self-care is essential, as is teaching staff the business and inviting them into ownership.
• Systemic challenges—too many restaurants, not enough margin, consumers don’t see cost, etc.—mean that doing the right thing is hard but crucial.

Notable Quotes

“The paradox of our industry is: we take better care of others than ourselves... We have to put the oxygen mask on ourselves first, which starts with everyone feeling dignity.” – Ryan Turner [124:26]
“As long as I’m in business, I’ll push the ceiling to pay people more—but only if you’re willing to pay more for a burger.” – [126:24]
“You can’t give people what you don’t have.” – Ryan Turner [131:42]

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14. Final Wisdom & Call to Action

[134:39–136:45]

• Ryan’s three core lessons:

  1. “It’s more important to get it right than to be right.”
  2. “If it were easy, everyone would be doing it... therein lies opportunity.”
  3. “The hardest person to lead is yourself.”

• Challenge for the industry: Lift each other up, make dignity non-negotiable, and understand that the real measure of a restaurant is its human impact.

“We are in the business of developing people. We’re not putting out food, we’re creating opportunity... If we lift up other owners, owners lift teams, and teams lift communities, that’s how you transform.” – Eric Cacciatore [132:29]

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Important Timestamps

• 02:35: Ryan’s mood, intro to Giving Kitchen.
• 04:28: Success mantra: adversity as opportunity.
• 08:16: Current state of Unsukay Restaurants.
• 15:12: Labor philosophy, profit trade-offs, and breaking industry norms.
• 55:19: Pivotal lesson: business model change at Muss & Turner’s.
• 63:09: Lessons from scaling, adapting, pride vs. adaptability.
• 81:51 & 85:18: Growth mistakes, learning from failure.
• 88:07: Origin of Giving Kitchen.
• 104:27: Current focus: succession, partnerships, equity.
• 116:10–132:29: Restaurant industry’s existential challenge; the dignity imperative.
• 134:39–136:45: Final wisdom and legacy.

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• “Adversity is the master teacher. It reveals everything we need to know about ourselves.” [04:48]
• “We wanted to build brick houses, to connect with humans... That will never show up in a P&L, but that matters most.” [21:33]
• “I see vulnerability as a strength, not a weakness.” [53:38]
• “Failure is only failure if you don’t take the mistakes and consciously reflect on them.” [85:18]
• “You can’t give people what you don’t have.” [131:42]
• “It’s more important to get it right than to be right.” [136:22]
• “The hardest person to lead is yourself.” [136:45]

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Takeaways for Restaurant Professionals

• Embrace adversity and uncertainty: The most enduring lessons and business longevity are forged in challenge, not ease.
• Prioritize intellectual humility and curiosity: Seek mentorship, keep learning, and don’t be afraid to ask for help or admit you don’t know.
• Where and how you invest in your people matters: Higher wages, real benefits, and a nurturing environment will yield long-term performance and retention—even if it comes at a cost to short-term profits.
• Sustainable restaurant growth is about roots, not branches: Don’t build just to scale or for ego—build to last, embed in community, and define your success on your own terms.
• The future is dignity-centered operations: Stepping into self-care, teaching business acumen, offering equity, and making sure everyone at the table feels they belong is the real differentiator.
• Transform yourself, then lead others: Leadership begins within; the greatest lever for change is your own transformation.

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Connect with Ryan Turner & Unsukay

• Email: ryan[at]nsukay (given on episode)
• Unsukay Restaurants: unsukay.com
• For Giving Kitchen: givingkitchen.org/
• For more actionable tools and resources: See show notes at restaurantunstoppable.com/1270

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“How we show up is more important than anything else we can do.” – Ryan Turner

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Listen to the full episode for more on leadership, legacy, and transforming the industry—one owner (and one act of dignity) at a time.

Transcript

[A]

What up Unstoppables? Quick favor to ask before we hit play on today's episode and that is please follow and subscribe to this podcast. Nearly 70% of the people that listen to the show or view it do not subscribe or follow. And you owe it to yourself to do just that. Because if you do, when we get an amazing guest on the show that gets a lot of likes, a lot of shares a lot of views, the algorithm is paying attention and it will push that episode to your feed so you'll get our best content. Not to mention it is absolutely free to you and it is the most impactful thing you can do to support this mission. Mission to inspire, empower and to transform the industry. And I can't do it alone. I need your support. Thank you in advance. Welcome to restaurant unstoppable. For 10 years and over 1, 000 episodes, I've been traveling the country chasing word of mouth leads and having in person only long form discussions with the industry's finest owners and operators. Our mission is to inspire, empower and transform the restaurant industry by bridging the gap between this generation's leaders and the next. Listen to today's guests and so many others and get one step closer to becoming unstoppable. This episode is brought to you by Restaurant Technologies, the leader in automated cooking oil management. Their total oil management solution is an end to end closed loop automated system that delivers, monitors, filters, collects and recycles your cooking oil eliminates one of the dirtiest jobs in the kitchen. Restaurant technologies services over 45,000 customers nationwide. Automate your oil and elevate your kitchen by visiting RTI Inc.com or call 888-779-5314 to get started. This episode is made possible by US Foods. Running a successful restaurant takes more than just great food. With US Foods, you can expect more high quality products, advanced tools and flexible deliveries to grow your business. Their industry leading oxy platform also does more than just place your US Foods order. It uses AI to help you take control, save time and increase profitability. Visit usfoods.com expectmore to learn how to become a US Foods customer one more time. That is usfoods.com expect more with excitement. Allow me to introduce you today's guest partner at Unsuke Restaurants, Ryan Turner. My man. Ryan, are you feeling unstoppable today?

[B]

I'm feeling good. I don't know about unstoppable.

[A]

You had a busy week.

[B]

Highly adaptable but not unstoppable.

[A]

I mean, you've been going hard this Week I am here in town in Atlanta. This week. You invited me to Team Heidi event. Chris Goss said I had to talk to you. And I said, you know, I have talked to Ryan. He was amazing. I have to get him back on the show. The first time you were on the show was over 10 years ago, episode 100 2015.

[B]

I think I lost my podcast virginity with you. With you. It was a new thing.

[A]

Well, it was. It was hot off the presses back then. It was a new thing for the industry for sure. But Chris had amazing things to say about you in our conversation, and it made me want to reconnect with you. We reconnected. You told me about what you have going on with. Excuse me, Giving Kitchen and Team Heidi. I was able to experience that event. It was. It's amazing what you're doing. Congratulations on nearly $1.5 million. I don't know what the total was it.

[B]

Yeah, 1.45 raised.

[A]

Let's just round that up Sunday.

[B]

Yeah, we can round it up Sunday night for our Team Heidi event over at Truist park and to benefit the Giving Kitchen. And that was our 14th team Heidi. And the first one, we raised $275,000 for our chef and brother, Ryan Heidinger, who had been diagnosed with stage four gallbladder cancer, to help he and his wife in their battle. He was given six months to live and a 5% chance. And we did what we knew how to do, which was throw a party. And you did raise money for them and help them in their battle, in addition to, you know, keeping him on salary and his health insurance. And that has turned into something that is beyond what we can ever could have ever imagined.

[A]

And we're going to get deep into that story. I'm sure it's going to come out today. Before we dive into who you are, where your business is today, let's get that motivational, inspirational ball rolling with a success quote or mantra. What do you offer us?

[B]

Oh, success quoter mantra. Let's go with right now. Top of mind is on the other side of every challenge is an equal or greater seed of opportunity if you

[A]

allow it to reveal itself, dive into that.

[B]

Well, I believe at my core that adversity is the master teacher. It reveals everything we need to know about ourselves. It reveals what we need to know about others around us. There's. There's. It's kind of the way. The other way I put it is like, you really don't learn much when the tide is high is when it's low. And you get confronted with an obstacle or a barrier or a challenge or a constraint or whatever, and it forces discomfort. And we don't grow without discomfort. And you got to be forced to look at things a little bit differently. So, you know, as challenges, as life unfolds and reveals itself to us, there's a lot of things that essentially don't go the way that we had hoped they would or thought they might or whatever it might be. And it all comes down to our response and our narrative that we generate as things happen. And there's huge opportunity in that. And a lot of folks, you know, I guess at a young age, when in my early 20s, I was handed a book called Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill. And the essence of that quote came from that. And it was, you know, he was commissioned by Andrew Carnegie to study the most successful people in the world at that time. This is 1938. It was 33 through 38. And he found some common threads amongst them all. Probably if he, if, if podcasting was around then he probably would have been doing what you sure. And that book was a paradigm shifting tome for me, for me to take in. And it was the first time, actually I was handed a book that was outside of academia, high school, or college, and I was like, really interested in learning for the first time.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's probably one of the most read entrepreneurial books out there.

[B]

Has to be.

[A]

It's definitely a must read if you're looking to start something and to figure out what it takes. And I love this idea of just the obstacle is the way.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I think that when we're. I think society sells us this idea that freedom is doing nothing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And like, we were like. But the. I think the reality is freedom agency is getting to choose what you work so hard for every day. Having choice to put your energy into something that you care about. And when you push yourself to take the risk to, to. To get better, to do the hard things, that is, when we get better. It's not in doing nothing. Yes, right. It's in choosing to do the hard thing that we actually find.

[B]

Freedom was being able to choose what you want to be responsible for.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And committed to. And that is. That is ultimately freedom and your ability to exercise your agency, no matter the circumstance. And ultimately, the way I view it is that we have three options on how we're experiencing life. We can choose to be a victim, we can choose to be a participant, or we can choose to be an observer.

[A]

Yeah, great way to get this thing Started, man. So paint the picture before we dive into your story. And again, you were a guest on the show. Episode 120. Show is evolved.

[B]

I have no recollection of what I had to say at that point, but I'm not. I'm definitely not the same guy I was.

[A]

I'm sure there's gonna be some consistency. There may be, but, you know, the show has evolved so much, so I'm gonna just take you through like you've never been a guest on the show. We're gonna go much deeper this time around. But before we start sharing your story, paint the picture of what Unsuque is today.

[B]

So Unsake a Restaurants is a. We're a restaurant group in Atlanta. We have. We have properties in Buckhead as well as up into Smyrna. So the northwest corridor is the best way to describe it. We started with our first restaurant called Muss and Turner's in 2005. So we just celebrated 21 years there. Congratulations. Thank you. And that's up in Smyrna, where me and Todd Musman, AKA Mus, we lived. We had met each other working at a restaurant called the Food Studio back in the late 90s, and we had reconnected when we both were living in Smyrna. We had bumped into each other at actually, the grocery store and just started getting together and cooking on Monday nights with our wives. And, you know, one too many Manhattans probably led to pregnancy, but that's how it all started. We opened up our second restaurant where we're sitting here now. It's called Local 3. It's in Buckhead. That was 15 years ago. Just over 15 years ago. And then we have a speakeasy that's next to Muslin Turner. It's called Eleanor's. It was named after our second employee we ever hired, Eleanor Seal, who started working with us at the young age of 63, and she's still with us at 84.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And it's a, you know, homage to her and her life. And so we're three concepts. Yeah. So we're at three. And then we have Mth Pizza, which is in the same development as Muss and Turner's and Eleanor's, and we opened that up just over six years ago.

[A]

2019.

[B]

Yep. And then we have a private dining club that's called Warhorse Investments, which is next to Local 3. We have a private event facility that is associated with the club. And then we also have a Japanese concept for our private club members that's called Seahorse Advisors. And then we have another restaurant just down the street, further into Buckhead called Rochambeau, which we opened just over three, three years ago.

[A]

Your wings are so good, dude.

[B]

Oh, good.

[A]

I had some wings last night and I was. And I'm pretty picky when it comes to wings.

[B]

Okay, good.

[A]

I was blown away. So what was the name of that private event space you have? Seahorse, The Japanese concept.

[B]

We have the, the Arbitrage room.

[A]

Arbitrage, okay. And what year did you guys start Arbitrage in Seahorse?

[B]

So that. We opened that in the summer of 2024.

[A]

Okay, cool. So big picture. So majority of your concepts, safe to say, with the exception of the pizza, that's counter service, correct?

[B]

No, that's full service.

[A]

So all full service on average. Like if you had a, I guess a plow horse, like you're, like, you're known for Muscle Turner. That is your flagship. Right. That was what got you started.

[B]

Original. I wouldn't say we're necessarily known for it. I mean, a lot of people know of it for sure, but I mean that's, that's, that's how it all started. So.

[A]

Yeah. Give us an idea of some of the targets you're hitting in terms of, you know, percent profit and prime costs and what that looks like if you're.

[B]

No, it, it varies. I mean, from a cons. I don't know if there's any use in giving you that from a consolidated perspective. I mean. And they all vary from.

[A]

Right, they're different models.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, I'd be, I'd be more inclined to share with you some of the practices and the way we, we choose to manage our financial performance versus giving you the outcomes and in the percentages. And it's not like we have anything to hide. It's just, it's. I don't know, I don't know how much meaning it would have for anyone.

[A]

Got it. I mean, the reason why I asked the question is because I think one of the issues in our industry is that there are no aiming points, no benchmarks, because we don't talk about numbers.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Most of the information that gets out into the world that I think young professionals, restaurateurs, aspiring restaurateurs are consuming is consumer facing content. And yeah, the whole point of that content is to create an illusion.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So we're not getting a sense of reality. Yes. So that's the reason why I asked.

[B]

I get the question. I mean, I mean, you know, prime costs are prime costs and those are, those are, those are the same for everyone. And they are the most, you know, the things you need to pay attention to the most. And the percentages. That's why I was saying the percentages for us are different for each concept because we have. So for example here at Local three, you know, this is Local three and Warhorse and Seahorse are all under, essentially in one, in one complex. And we, we view it as this one P. L. So there's different revenue centers but we, we have shared expense and shared cost movement and then we have revenue associated with, with you know, membership dues and things like that. So it's so very different.

[A]

I would assume you're split with say your, the pizza concept, was it MT MTH MTH thank you very much. MTH Is that, that prime cost, you know, cost of goods, labor is probably looking a lot different than say your private event space.

[B]

Yeah, the, well, the private event space is only, you know, we have, we have labor there when we have events, so it's different. And then we also have the ability to, you know, charge for that labor as well because it's a kind of a one time temporary thing. And so we fold that into the expense where you know, the pizza place, you know, the labor as a percentage is actually going to be about the same, if not a little bit higher

[A]

because of more people.

[B]

Well, those people. But we also choose to pay our people. I mean no one starts in our company below. I mean we made this decision three or four years ago and we probably need to increase this. But we had a minimum wage internally of $16. We did it back in 2021, now that I'm thinking about it and doesn't matter which role you're in. And so we, you know, we choose to, to, to pay people as best we can, top of market. We also choose to create an environment that, you know, paying them well enough gets them in and then treating them well enough is what keeps folks around. And if you keep folks around for quite some time, they end up paying them more.

[A]

Right. And you're pretty outspoken about the fact that you think our industry is broken.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I'm assuming when I hear that with the amount of press you get attention to get respect from your peers you get. I would be surprised if. I wouldn't be surprised if you were under 10 with the amount of labor that you invest in your people in terms of profit.

[B]

So I'm sorry, rephrase the question.

[A]

I guess what I'm alluding to or suggesting is with the. As successful as you are. Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised that if you, you would choose to take less profit in order to pay your people more.

[B]

Correct. We, so we have very much made a very. Gosh, how do I put this. We have chosen to take this very challenging path in this industry along with doing our best to attract really great people that could help us. People that would either be able. Better suited to do the things that we either can't do or don't know how to do or don't want to do and to allow us to have some quality of life. And so we've been willing to, you know, there's always trade offs. Right. I was having that discussion with my 20 year old daughter this morning and. And so I made a decision very early on. We had our first child a year in opening Muss and Turner's and I had made a very conscious decision. I was more interested 20 years down the road. It's impossible to imagine that we're actually there. But I wanted to be known more for being a great husband and a great father than being a great restaurateur and being a great restaurateur. And if you go about a certain way, it can be in direct conflict with the other objectives that I had stated. And so, so without the willingness to surround ourselves with, with people, we've always been, you know, I would say top heavy in a sense and be willing to have other folks that would assist us with the, for everything from the HR to the admin to the accounting marketing. We've always had, I wouldn't say always, but we've more times than not had someone that we would, you know, put in the category of a coach or a consultant. Someone that was there to help us understand what we don't see and help us connect the dots and close the gap in our incompetency and deficiencies and ignorance as we're, you know, none of the three of us went to school to do this. None of us had, you know, professional management training or executive training. We just started off with one and have grown organically doing the best we can with what we know.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But also, but also the, you know, quickly understanding we don't know what we don't know and being very comfortable with that which is I think essential. You know, a term I've heard recently, Daniel Pink is a snippet I saw the other day and it was intellectual humility and just really understanding it's possible you're not right and you don't know what the hell you're doing.

[A]

Yeah, the more, the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know anything.

[B]

Correct. That's absolutely. That's. That is the most. By far the most expeditious path to wisdom.

[A]

I remember how naive I was when I started this podcast. Like, I'm gonna figure it out. I'm gonna crack the code. And the more I got into it, the more I was just like, this is not infuriating, but just. You're like. You start to realize that there you will never know it all. Your monkey brain will only be able to handle so much correct. Of the truths the universe has to share with you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, you will. Even if we know as much as we can, it won't. It will be a fraction of what there is to know.

[B]

Absolutely. And it's. And if you're curious, you know, to me, over time, I've become more and more endeared by people who are curious that. That understand. They don't know things. They want to know things and they want to learn. And. And it's. To me, it's intoxicating, it's invigorating. It's just. It's. It's like, you know, when we're three or four, and you're just so. There's such wonderment about what's going on. You're asking all these questions and, you know, somehow, you know, the. The schooling that we all got kind of. Kind of beat that, beat this, beat it out of us, the creativity and the curiosity and all that. And it became, memorize this, and if you get it right, then you get an A and you get to move on to the next stage. And. And then, you know, you keep doing that and you get a job and you live happily ever after. It's like, okay, I was always bad

[A]

at school, but my curiosity was always strong, so that's. I'm grateful I was able to hang on to that. But I push here because I think it's important that we communicate that. Two truths, that's another variable. Two truths can be true at the same time, for sure. My truth can be different than your truth, and we're both. Our truth is as real to us, respectively. Right. Yeah. But I bring this to the conversation because I notice a lot of the other publications that circulate some of the bigger media platforms out there seem to be really focused on spotlighting concepts that are scaling fast.

[B]

Yeah. Right.

[A]

And it seems to be like, that's. The goal is to create a concept, scale it, sell it, you know, exit, like. And I think that it's important to find balance in the narrative that there is a path of choosing to build something to grow, but to grow deeper, to make a bigger impact, to create opportunities for it to go deeper, deeper roots into your community.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And also success can be relative to finding balance between spending time with your family and the people you work with, right?

[B]

Oh, absolutely. It's, it's like, what's the point if you make all this money and you have. You have. You're constantly in the weeds, emotionally, physically, spiritually. You have zero peace of mind, zero balance, zero sense of fulfillment. You're not satiated in the least bit because you're chasing, you know, you know, the external, tangible things or your identity can't get enough recognition. It's, it's a, it's. It's a fool's errand. And it will create, you know, no lasting joy or enjoyment. I mean, going back to, you know, you just reminded me. I mean, two, I get asked all the time, you know, what. What are my favorite business books? And I'll say that the, you know, from a textbook perspective, it would be good to. Great. But. But there's two childhood fables that I think are just the things that I've paid attention to the most, which is, you know, one is three little pigs and the other is the tortoise and the hare. And we haven't built, you know, anything with the idea. We're going to build it to scale. We've built it to endure. We wanted to grow roots. We want to build brick houses. We want to make a difference in our community and, and connect. And so, and I'm not saying that pejoratively, we've just, We've never, It's never been appealing to us to grow something and put it in a transient, you know, a main. Main on main location and do really high volume. We, the enjoyment of what we do is the ability to connect with. With humans and bring joy and allow them to escape and explore and celebrate and mourn and do deals and find love and, and. And. And create traditions with their kids and, and just be. Become part of their lives. That's the stuff that will never show up in a P. L. But that's the stuff that matters most. And that's the stuff that just creates all the, you know, so much joy and fulfillment for us in being able to facilitate that. And so, so we've just. For us, it's not. Have been about. About scaling. You know, if you put a gun to my head and said we had to scale one of our concepts, it Would it would probably be mth pizza, but I don't have any burning desire to go and do that on my own. I'd be maybe interested in someone else doing it, but not me.

[A]

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[B]

I mean, it gets really dangerous too, when you start to achieve, you know, what people will consider to be success. And then all of a sudden you get a lot of opportunities thrown at you, which essentially can become not just distractions, it can actually derail you and implode the whole thing. You know, there's a concept that I was introduced to. It was Greg McCown's book Essentialism, which is just a fantastic book. It was one of those that I read and I was like, oh my God, this dude freaking wrote this for me. I read this like eight years ago. But. But one of the concepts was the clearer you are at what you're willing to say yes to, the easier it is to say no, which is essentially understanding what your boundaries need to be to preserve what it is that you do that makes what you have available, like how it, how it works and understanding your contribution to that because you can easily fall off path.

[A]

Everything you say yes to is something else you have to say no to.

[B]

It's all trade off.

[A]

So like. But I think there is a trade, like early in your career I think you should say yes to everything because you're still feeding that, that self awareness of what, like what's my purpose? Like what am I good at? Like you're still feeding that, right?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Like you're getting that perspective, you're getting the experience over time you have to start saying no to more and you know, really fine tuning like who am I, what do I want to do? What fills my cup? Yes. So it's just like kind of like sliding, like sliding scale, you know, for sure. So we haven't even started going back and going to the origin of how Ryan Turner got to where he is today. So when did you know that the restaurant industry was for you?

[B]

It's hard for me to. Hard for me to pinpoint exactly when I knew as far as it being a business it was. I had a desire starting around age 23 to do my own thing, quote, unquote, you know, after reading Think and Grow Rich and understanding that I'm not just a leaf blowing around in the societal wind and I would have the ability to look out ahead and design, I have a little bit more of a say in where I'm going to end up being than maybe I thought prior to that. But I grew up in a mill town, blue collar town in Maine, Lewiston, Auburn and I grew up middle class relative to a lot of folks in the community. We're doing okay. But by no stretch of the imagination were we wealthy. So we'd go out every once in a while for a special occasion. And I just loved going out to restaurants. I was just enthralled by them and I loved trying new things. I'll never forget when I was, I think it was 12 or 13, we went to the local, you know, the fine dining French restaurant and I had a soft shell crab for the first time and it was the most mind bending experience I can imagine, I could have ever imagined. And then I started working as a line cook and to help pay for college my junior year. You're in Vermont, Williston Corners and at a friendlies up in. Yeah, University of Vermont. And then I started working at a snack bar and grill at a local golf club right after I graduated to managing that for the summer. And then as soon as I got into Atlanta I ended up doing a term of service with AmeriCorps along the border of Arizona and Mexico for about 10 months, which is an amazing. That was my first introduction to community service and it was an amazing experience. But I was making my way back north to Maine and I stopped in Atlanta. I had a friend here. I'd been in the desert, let's just say under socialized for. For quite some time at age 23. Ended up in a beautiful fall day in Buckhead, which was, you know, booming at the time. And. And I was like, you know what? I think I'm going to hang out here for a little bit. So I started working as a busboy at a restaurant that literally just. Just recently went out of business and in for. I worked there for two nights for just. I don't remember this guy's name. I just remember him being a raging prick. And I got recruited. I was out having beers with a buddy and I got recruited by opening restaurant team for a concept called Rio Bravo to go be an opening server for them and started working with them. They started moving me up the ladder, became a trainer, and then I became a key. And then they were. They were making a hard run at me, getting into management. And I was convinced that I needed to get a quote, unquote, real job. And so I ended up applying and getting a job at the Industrial bank of Japan at their Atlanta agency. It was the fifth largest bank in the world and on paper sounded great and my mom and dad would be so proud. And I didn't have enough money to really afford any suits and I couldn't afford the parking, so I had to take the bus system downtown. And I was living up in the suburbs, so it was about three hours a day of commuting to. To do some number, you know, some basic data entry and make very little for an organization which is. There's very clear ceiling. So nothing about it was. Was filling my cup. But. But those three hours I was listening to things that were changing the way I was listening.

[A]

Audiobooks.

[B]

Audiobooks. I was. I was at the library and I had an insatiable curiosity that started with the Think and grow Rich. And I was just taking in that

[A]

was one thing I was curious about. So I was under the impression for some reason you discovered Think and grow rich when you were younger. Like high school or what?

[B]

No, it was when I first moved here in Atlanta. Moved in with a. A house full of chiropractors and the guy had owned the house, handed me the book. He said, hey, read this. If, if you. If you like what it says, let's talk about it.

[A]

So the. The reason why I was curious is because at this point, it doesn't sound like you're living the think and grow rich lifestyle. Like you're kind of floating, right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And as soon as you picked up that book, it forced you to think, what do I want? What's my future? What is that? What is the end result? And how do I reverse engineer that? How do I. Should I write this down? Should I read it every morning? Should I literally keep it in the front of my head every day? Did you go through all those exercises? Did you. Did you write it down and read it before you go to bed?

[B]

You know, I don't. I don't remember to what degree I was doing that, but I just. You know, the words I can put to it now is the first time I was fully introduced to having complete agency over my life.

[A]

What is agency?

[B]

Agency to me is the. You know, you're the author of your. Your direction, your attention, and your response to life.

[A]

You use that word, agency, and it forces me to think of. Is it Ken Wilber, the author of A Brief History of Everything? Are you familiar with that book?

[B]

I've. I've heard of it, but the way

[A]

you talk, the way you write. Because I've read your manifesto.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I couldn't help but wonder if you know what a Holland is. Is Hall a Holland? H O L O N. No. So in that book, he talks about how everything in the universe is a Holland. And a Holland is defined as something that is complete on its own, while simultaneous, simultaneously a part of something else. And literally everything in the universe is a Holland. It can't exist without being a part of something greater. So literally everything is in a hierarchy or a Hallarchy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, like, you are a Holland in the sense that you are Ryan Turner, but you're also a partner in Ansuke, and you're a father and a husband. So you're part of a family, you're a part of a business.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Your restaurant, Muss and Turner, is a Holland. It's a restaurant on its own, but it's comprised of cooks, waiters, servers that are on their own, individual, but a part of something. Your restaurant's a part of a community. On a molecule. I can't remember the order here, but like an atom is a part of a molecule, or molecule is a part of an atom. Like literally everything is a part of something else. And all things, all Hollands, are either climbing or ascending or getting worse, descending or degrading. And it's moving in the direction of community or agency. And there's four dimensions, getting better, getting worse. Individual, collective. And you in studying you and learning about you and this will come out in your story, you have this ability to find your purpose, agency. And then you found this balance where your agency is simultaneously serving the community and you're, you're ascending, doing the hard things and it's making your business and your community better. Yeah, I think that's the goal.

[B]

Absolutely. No, it's, it's, that's. I'm fascinated by that. I've written it down. I'm going to look that up. I appreciate you sharing that with me. And like to me the, the, the this has become more and more clear for me as I've gotten older and I've done a lot of self work and understanding that the more work I do from within, the better I am able to serve everything and everyone that is important to me and that I care about and that I'm committed to. And that is, that is the work. Because how I show up is everything. It's not about what I say. You know, my favorite adage for leadership is what you say, what you do speak so loudly they can't hear what you're saying, saying. And that's about how we're showing up. And that is all inner work. And, and we are in fact the hardest people to lead is ourself.

[A]

Yeah, that's, but it's, it's. I think this is going to come out more in the conversation as we go. But if you want to lead others, it's the journey starts with you. You have to ascend yourself to be able to pull people up. It's easier to pull something up than it is to push it up over your head.

[B]

No question.

[A]

You know, so if you want to build a team, you have to build yourself. They will never rise above you.

[B]

Correct. But, but I would contend just, you know, the fit, just the idea of pulling is like, there's this connotation of, it's a physical, a physical thing. I would, I would contend that. But who you are and how you show up will create a wake. It's like wake surfing.

[A]

Yeah. It creates, it's like slipstream like.

[B]

Exactly right. That's exactly right. And that's, you know, that's where you know, if you're an authentic leader then, then people are willing to follow you regardless of title, rank, authority, money, fame, all of those, all of those, you know, identity based things that are very fleeting and very temporary.

[A]

So I brought this up, this idea of Holland's up because you mentioned agency. And we got there because you were talking about Thick and Grow Rich and how that gave you agency. And that is a book that will teach you how to manifest your destiny. Sure.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And then you mentioned another book on our first time around 10 years ago called Getting Things Done. Those two books together.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That is a dangerous combination.

[B]

They are, yeah.

[A]

Is that around the same time you discovered that book?

[B]

So, no. Getting Things Done. I got introduced. It was David Allen and it was, it was a talk he was giving to Google executives. It was in 2007 and it was a grainy. You can find it on YouTube now. And I think it was 11 minutes, maybe a little bit longer, 18 maybe. The book, the video.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And what hit me was even at that time, everyone understood that Google's mission was to collect all the information that existed on the planet. And they were also known for only inviting the smartest people on the planet to work for them. And they hired this guy to come in and help them figure out how to get their shit together. I was like, this is interesting to me.

[A]

It's pretty simple.

[B]

It's pretty simple and is very, very much based on how the brain works, which really resonated me. So I had been studying this concept of time management or productivity or whatever you want to call it. Our first business consultant, you know, handed me a piece of paper and he had. It was A column A, column B, column C. What's most important goes in A, what's next B and next C. I hadn't been introduced to anything like that prior to that, so. But I understood pretty quickly if I didn't figure out a way to juggle everything, then things weren't going to, it was not going to work out. The higher you go up the proverbial ladder, the more people, problems, projects, departments, things you're responsible for and committed to. If you don't have a methodology, in order to keep track of all of those things, in order to focus on the right thing at the right time, you're going to have a hell of a time. You're going to be swimming upstream, you're going to be dropping balls, you're going to be missing appointments, you're going to be disappointing people. No matter how well you're, how well intentioned you are. If you don't have a system and a methodology that's congruent to match your intentionality, you're ultimately going to have challenges as you try to take on more.

[A]

I feel like Fake and Grow Rich is very what and why we're getting things done is very. How.

[B]

Oh, absolutely. It was. Yes. It's a methodology. And to me, like, a methodology is if you understand how a nail goes into a board, you could use multiple things to try to hammer it in there. A rock or you could use a hammer. And so to me, it was more about the methodology that David Allen introduced. I choose. And, gosh, since 2011, I think I've been. It's probably 11. Yeah, it's almost 15 years I've been using Evernote, but Evernote was designed by a GTD disciple to create a technology tool.

[A]

And GDT is getting things done.

[B]

Getting things done, yeah, exactly. And so, yeah, that's been a methodology that I've been following. I mean, 15 years.

[A]

I want to come back to this because it was 2005, you started Turner, or mustn't Turner, and then two years after being open is when you discovered that book. So I think we can kind of dive deeper into how you. How that changed things for you or improved your business. But we haven't really even gotten to the point of you opening. So you discover. You discover. Think and grow rich. It gets you thinking about the future. What is the. The future I want to manifest for myself.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then that was late 90s, so this.

[B]

This would have been in 1995.

[A]

So how did you start living? So now it's 10 years from you discovering this book. You. You developed this new habit of audiobooks, which is huge. Changed my life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Podcasts and audiobooks, hands down, best thing that ever happened to me. I'm dyslexic, so I. I'm incredibly curious, but I never really had my form sure of taking it in. And then I discovered audiobooks, and it was like literally working as an assistant winemaker in a cellar eight hours a day, listening at times to 16 hours of audio content every day, and I couldn't get enough. And that's actually why I started this podcast, because I knew that people like in the restaurant industry, like me, so busy, don't have the time to read, or a lot of people have learning disabilities in this industry, too, which is one of the reasons why we gravitate, because it's very analog, you know, And I knew that if I could find a way to meet, to find, to get the information to these people while they're working on the line, doing prep, driving to work at the gym, it could be a game changer, because it changed my life. Anyway, I digress.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

But it changed your life too. So what was going on that 10 years before you got started? And I do want to get to the point where we're in your restaurants talking about how you grew. So yeah, if you can just kind of consolidate that 10 years.

[B]

For me, gosh, that was a very challenging 10 years. It was deciding I wanted to be in business, taking, taking a path to, to be in business for myself, which was essentially, it was a, you know, network marketing opportunity that was, it was actually a television network that was producing only personal and professional development content. So it was like, okay, this is my jam, this is gonna be great. And I pursued that for two or three years, which was a great experience. But I was pursuing business for the wrong reasons, the wrong things. I was making very bad decisions. I had to tremendous amount of blind spots that I can now see, you know, now. And I ended up, ended up driving myself towards actually not towards two personal bankruptcy by the time I was age 26. At the same time I actually got, I met my. Who is now my wife and has been for the Shelley for the last 27 years. And, and so I met her while I was in the same period of positioning myself to the world as if I was very successful. And I was, I was so not

[A]

doing the fake it till you make it approach the whole thing.

[B]

Exactly. And, and, and she, she, she was with me at my worst. I mean literally I was at rock bottom. I was. I ended up getting diagnosed with chronic fatigue. I couldn't work, I could barely get out of bed. I was depressed. I was literally at rock bottom. And she stood by my side. And that was other than my parents was the first time I had experienced unconditional love. She wasn't with me because of all the things that I was trying to present myself as. It was who I, who I was. And that's another thing about adversity. It just reveals who's really in it to win it with you when shit's not going the way that anyone wanted it to. And we got. I proposed to her six months after meeting her because of the intensity of what we went through together and what she showed me and the love she was willing to give me. It was like it was a complete no brainer. And she's, and ever since then, nothing's changed. She's been, she's been, you know, and it's cliche for, for, you know, she's been my rock, blah, blah. No, I'm just like, like I'm not here. We're not having this conversation. If this woman didn't believe in me and. And support me emotionally, physically, spiritually, financially. When we first started, you know, when we first opened, we were making nothing. I mean, we weren't paying ourselves for quite some time. And thank God she had a good job and she was willing to gamble on me.

[A]

And this is still six years before you opened the restaurant.

[B]

Well, so we get. We get married in 1998, and I'm on the other side of bankruptcy at this point. And I'm now working. I'm back in restaurants.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I'm. I'm actually a server at this point at Chris Goss's in Robbie's. The restaurant called the Food Studio.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And Chris was no longer a partner there. Robbie. It was Robbie and Steve Simon, who's now the. The primary partner. And then Chris Reinhardt was a. Was a junior partner at the time. But so I was working at the Food Studio.

[A]

Those are their fine dining concept.

[B]

Yeah, it was awesome. It was just such a fantastic place, a great team. It was just an awesome experience.

[A]

So do you start having the dream of opening your own place around this time?

[B]

So, yeah, that started brewing around that time. But I was actually working on something with. With Chris Goss that was. We were calling it the People Garden. And it was going to be a. A place for people in our industry to come and to learn and to educate and empower themselves. You know, ironically, we're kind of moving in that direction again. Again, which is pretty cool.

[A]

Just made the connection.

[B]

But. But yeah, I started training at the Food Studio. My first night of training was the day was literally the day I got discharged for my bankruptcy. And the next day is when we were heading to get married.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

All in that same time period.

[A]

So what happened between this period and you opening Muslim Turner?

[B]

So kept working at the Food Studio. I got, oh, gosh, this is going to be 2000. I was invited to help out at. For the Tour Championship. It was a PGA Tour Championship at East Lake Golf Club. And so fifth group's catering company, it was called Bold American Catering at the time. It. They were contracted to go and execute the food in the clubhouse for that event. And I was asked to come help for the week and kind of manage the grill room, which I agreed to do. I grew up loving golf, and my dad was a big golfer, loved playing. And so about halfway into the week, I got pulled aside by the assistant general manager of the club, and she asked me if I would be interested in applying for their food and beverage director role. That she really liked the way I was Carrying myself. And they'd been looking for someone for nine months, and she thought it would be a great fit. And so after that tournament, I interviewed. Interviewed with her, interviewed with the GM and got the job. I never showed a resume. And had I had they asked me for a resume, they would never have let me in the gate. And, you know, I tell. I tell, you know, my kids and I tell young people all the time, opportunities aren't buttons on a wall. They come from people. Yeah. And you never know who's watching, and you never know who you're talking.

[A]

That's how it should be. And frankly speaking, I'm so glad that I think resumes are going to be a thing of the past.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There is no single person alive today who's applying for a job who's writing their own resume.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Well, but. But even that, it's like, who makes their resume look bad? Of course it's. It's natural. It's inherently embellished.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, to look really good as

[A]

best you can cover letters, resumes, AI is doing all of it. And I think that it's the best thing because it's going to force people to hire on merit and reputation and actually sitting across the table from somebody doing a stage, like getting to know someone, like putting energy into a relationship. Totally, totally.

[B]

Yeah. So. So it was. It was about two years into that job. It was an amazing place, an amazing mission. What what Tom Cousins in the. In the group did with that golf club and what it did for that, what it's done for that community, it's just absolutely remarkable, frankly. A big part of being exposed to that is what became the genesis of what we now know as the Giving Kitchen. We can get into that later on, but I still had that entrepreneurial itch. And at that point I realized, okay, maybe this is the path. I love everything around great food and drink, and more than anything, introducing it to others, the discovery around it, you know, people, you know, exploring things that they've never had before and trusting you to try things. And you have so much to share.

[A]

And I want to make sure we. We get into the opening of Muscle and Turner and the evolution as a. As a restaurant tour. So when did that conversation happen with your business partner, Todd Musman?

[B]

So we had going back to when earlier when we were. We had reconnected after I'd been gone for a little bit. We knew each other, we're good friends. Went to his wedding, and it was 2000, probably two, that we started talking about it. One night.

[A]

So three years from conception to open doors.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, we, we had, we had another guy that was involved early on. We had, you know, just like a lot of folks, we kind of start coming up with a name and the menu and concept and websites and all this stuff. But we didn't really have a business plan until we got introduced to Alan Jones, which was by Linton Hopkins, who's a chef and restaurateur in town, who's had tremendous success, he and his wife Gina. And I'd asked Linton, I knew him from the club, his parents were members. Like, who did you talk to? How did you do this? And he said, you need to talk to Alan. And we went to go sit down with him and, you know, he showed us this inch thick business plan. He goes, I'm going to help you guys not only produce this, but more importantly, understand what's in it. Because I remember, I'll never forget this. Musko's Musk is a. He's from south of Boston, from Stoughton in his classic Massachusetts. He's like, so what do you know about restaurants? And Alan looks at him just without hesitation says, I don't know anything about restaurants. Supposedly you do. I know, I know about business. I understand business. And that's what my job is, is to teach you. And so is once we got that business plan and we went through that process, that's when we were able to get a lease and we were able to get money and, and all these things started, started clicking. So we went from idea to actually under the hood, actually going, okay, how is this actually going to work? In theory, but even at that, a business plan is nothing but an educated, calculated guess.

[A]

Right? Yeah. Pro forma, you know, you're just trying to.

[B]

Quasi hope.

[A]

Yeah. And I think it's important to point out too, I think between like 2000 and 2007, it was a really good time to be an entrepreneur. Yeah, I think that there was. The economy was great. You could go to banks. If you had a little bit of a track record, if you had somebody in your corner that could like vouch for you, you could get a loan, an SBA loan. It wasn't that hard. Correct.

[B]

We were getting.

[A]

I'm assuming that's the path you went. Did you get a loan?

[B]

Yeah, we got, well, we got, we got some, some family debt we got. And then we got SBA debt. But yes, and I'll never forget sitting in front of the first. My first SBA banker, and I was prepared for any and every question and he had only one. And he was. Wanted to know if there was going to be a particular chicken fingers of a particular other restaurant. Like something. I can't remember exactly, but he said, will you have chicken fingers like this place? And I said, knowing that we weren't, I was like, absolutely. But I was so disappointed because I was like, I was loaded for bear. I mean, I put so much thinking into that doc, and I was ready to answer any, any rock he wanted to lift. I was ready to answer the question, but it was okay. I mean, the point of it is to be prepared.

[A]

Right. And I was going to say, like, what if you did not go through all these exercises to get the clarity of who you are, why you're doing the business plan will make you think of things you would have never thought you should do it for yourself. So you have a plan, so you have a strategy, so you have an aiming point. You want to bring people with you, and that's what you're doing. When you're going to a bank, you're giving them opportunity to invest in something, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And you're. So you're going to need a team. Right. You're going to need to hire people and you're selling them that business plan, that vision.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I think it's. You shouldn't do it for the money, you should do it for you, because it's going to help you increase your odds exponentially if you actually live intentionally

[B]

well, allows you to have clarity.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In something that you're, you're making up out of your head. I mean, it's something that's completely. There's tremendous uncertainty. It's unchartered waters. And so it gives you some sense of clarity, some sense of direction that you can start to pursue it. And if you're doing it really well, there's a lot of refinement in your, in your thinking as far as what are you actually going to do and why you're going to do it, how you're going to do it, and really thinking through all of that, at least in thin air, so that when it comes time to actually go, you know, put it in play, you have something to at least hit the ground with and then. And let the water start running. Because, you know, anyone who understands opening a restaurant and you don't know shit until you. Right. Let the water start.

[A]

And just, even the cementing act of putting it on paper is so powerful.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

So you, you put this plan together, you get the, the help you need. This is a theme I'm picking up from you that you, you're never too, I guess, proud to go ask for help, to go to the mentor, to go to the consultant, the expert at what that thing is, and get the help to expedite the process.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you went to Alan, he taught you how to do this. You got the loan. Also probably seeing that 1 inch thick business plan, the banker is probably like, okay, you did your homework. That makes me feel good.

[B]

Oh yeah, I remember the, actually, the guy that, that gave us the lease, he looked at me and he waived the business plan and he said, someone wouldn't give you a lease. They're crazy. So he'd read it, he had some questions and he felt. So that felt good. But you know, to your, to your point, think I don't know how I, I got to this place, but if, but I just see vulnerability as a, as a strength. It's not a weakness to say, I don't know, I'm not sure I, I messed up. I need help. That is endearing. I don't trust people who say that they know everything and they don't need help and they got it. You know that those, those are the people I don't trust. And for whatever reason, society has kind of created this, this thinking that, that, that showing being vulnerable, showing weaknesses, and it's a bad thing. And it could not be more opposite 100.

[A]

So. And I know this because you, you took me through your restaurant. What you started as, what the business plan was, isn't what musk in Turner became.

[B]

No, no, we're on a third version of. Yeah, so, so yeah, we opened up as a, a gourmet deli and, and retail shop and it was counter service. We had gone to Zingerman's in Ann Arbor. We did a three day seminar with, with Ari Weinswig, who's one of the founders. It was just transformational.

[A]

I think I've had him on the show now four times.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, amazing. And so it was, it was, I mean, everything that they were sharing about how they run a business and how they view a culture and how they treat their people, everything was just like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So that kind of became our referential North Star. And, and you know, they defied all, they defy all business. They got a, you know, off the beaten path location, no parking, expensive. We're like, well, shoot, if they can do it there, then when we can do it in Smyrna. And so we opened up and we got a lot of really nice recognition we were maybe the first people to kind of come in and take. Just take. The concept of a really good sandwich was just taking fine dining and putting it between two pieces of really good bread. Because we had fine dining training and we were curating and preparing and making everything with the same culinary skill and time and love that you would get at a fine dining restaurant. But we made it a more casual, approachable thing. And. And we're giving people a version of something that they've had but a. But. But a version that hopefully would melt their face like a Reuben or whatever. And then we had all these, you know, a cheese case of over 100 artisan cheeses and charcuterie and oils and vinegars and wines and all this stuff. And about 10 months in, we realized that the. The model wasn't working. And there's Nothing like falling $10,000 short of payroll that that gets your attention.

[A]

So where were you coming short? Why wasn't it working for you?

[B]

Because. Well, you know, there is a variety of reasons, but we were. We were paying top level culinarians to come in and execute sandwiches at lunch with no, no add on spend other than tea or, you know, we didn't. We weren't even selling Coca Cola. We were selling like boilings and things like that. And people could buy wine and beer, but they had to take it home with them. And so it was a low ticket, relatively speaking. Retail was not very good margins. That was hard. We had no experience in that. And so combination of that. Todd, my partner, he and his wife Allison had their first child in June of 05. We had opened in February. She was where he had not been taking a check for nearly a year. She was working as a massage therapist. They have miles. He's like, dude, she can't work and we need to take pay. And I was like, okay. And we were, you know, 50, 50. And so we both started taking some salary. Probably shouldn't have been doing that in hindsight. We also had some other managers. There's all kinds of things that I could, in hindsight, dissect, but. But either way, I wouldn't say we were at an optimal level of understanding cash flow at that point either. So.

[A]

So, so when did things start to change? Like when. When was the first shift, the first step into getting it figured out?

[B]

So, I mean, that, that was a, A pivotal moment of like, oh, my God, I remember calling, I mean, being incredibly emotional, like, holy, we're gonna. We're gonna drive this thing off the road to figuring it out. Getting temporary Relief and then going, okay, this concept's not working. We need to adapt.

[A]

How long did it take you to make that decision?

[B]

I mean, a month.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then we decided, okay, well, we're gonna get rid of all the retail, we're gonna put a little bar in the corner, we're gonna serve wine and beer, we're gonna start serving dinner.

[A]

We're gonna get our license.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, and we're like, we're gonna just, we're gonna make it very approachable. We were, we were very much sold at that point to say this whole idea, you had to spend $200 in two hours to get really good food we thought was complete bullshit. And we, because you can travel all over the world and the best food you could possibly experience, you can get on a street.

[A]

Right?

[B]

So we're like, you know what? Screw that. We're going to just remove all the pomp and circumstance and pretense. We're going to bring people really great food made with love, really great wine that's off the beaten path. It's not name brand stuff, but it's just absolutely phenomenal and, and create hopefully an environment of trust where people would be like, come in and just discover and come in. And your, you know, Lululemons weren't around at the time, but it didn't matter what you, what you. We're just like, we're something we're not. Like, we just wanted to just lower the barrier that it existed at that time of, of what it meant to dine out or, and really explore great food. So we were serving, we were literally serving dinner on like we were using prison silverware. I mean, prison grade silverware. But it, but it, but very quickly cost down. Well, yeah, but, but, but the recession kind of rolls in pretty, pretty quickly after 2005, 2007 or 8. And all of a sudden we're seeing, you know, when the recession gets in full, we're seeing our sales go up. We're starting to figure out how to actually run a business. People are like, my gosh, this is great. I can come and get really great food. I don't have to worry about getting dressed up. I don't have to spend as much money doing it. And so, and so we were. Is a complete under promise over deliver proposition. And so that was very, you know, again, I said this earlier, you don't learn anything when the tide is highest, when it goes out. And so having that great recession early on was unbelievably. I'm so grateful for it because you get to see the rocks, you get to see what's going on. You get to lift and really understand. So as other restaurateurs were sucking pond water and resorting to Groupon and all this other stuff, we just leaned in to what we were doing and making sure that we were doing it as best we possibly could, from the consistency to the quality. And then more importantly than anything, anyone who came within our reach, we just did everything we can to make them feel like gold.

[A]

Yeah. This episode is made possible by US Foods. It takes more than great food to run a kitchen these days. With US Foods, more means consistently high quality products, industry leading tools and flexible deliveries that let you grow your business on your schedule. Whatever your goals, US Foods helps you turn them into reality. As a US Foods customer, you'll gain access to their industry leading Moxi platform which doesn't just make it easy to place your US Foods order, but it uses AI powered technology to help you take more more control of your business and increase profitability. You can also explore the latest issues of Food Fanatics magazine from US Foods. In each issue you'll find real world success stories, bold culinary inspiration and practical profit boosting ideas you can put to work immediately. Visit usfoods.com expect more to learn how to become a US Foods customer again, that's usfoods.com expect more I love all that. So when was the continued point of evolution for you? Like what was the next phase like? I think the, you're in opening, you know, first gear.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And figuring out what you are and how you're going to do what you're going to do. You're still kind of in that first gear. What was second gear for you? If you're in fifth gear now we're going to go through the gears. What was second gear?

[B]

So I mean, well, second gear was definitely going to serving wine and beer on premise and starting to serve dinner. And then your third gear would have been when.

[A]

I'm gonna keep that. That's, that's still first year because you're moving.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like you put it into gear.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But you're accelerating, you're figuring it out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're not in second gear yet. We have four more gears to get into when a lot of story left. Right. So what was the next thing you figured out? You change your business model, you're serving wine, the economy is matching what you're offering, you're building momentum. What was the next thing that really took you to the that next gear?

[B]

It would have been when bringing Chris hall, bringing him into the partnership and opening up Local 3, the restaurant we're sitting in now. Yeah. And.

[A]

And so that was five years later. So it took you five years to get into second gear?

[B]

Oh, yeah. No, five years of figuring it out and which, you know, you're, you're effectively operating for five years being one payroll away of, of going out of business. And if that doesn't get your attention and get you to, you know, figure it. Like a lot of people don't understand, natural selection is at play in business as much as anything. It's not about the strongest, it's not about the most intelligent. It's about the organisms that can adapt and understand the environment in which they find themselves in and adapt to it. And there's so many people who end up going out of business because they're not either able to or willing to adapt. Except that their dream, their original concept didn't hit. It's not working. It's not what people want, and they're not willing to own that. And pride just gets in the way. Ego is so expensive, it's ridiculous. And so, but we were willing to listen and learn, not lose ourselves in it, but just figure it out, calibrate, improve, and adapt to the situation. So for five years, that's what it took. But once we started to figure it out, we started to climb, and our sales started to climb, but our profitability started to climb because we, we were forced to figure it out. Like, we didn't want to do brunch on Sundays because most people don't want to do brunch on Sundays. But when we sat around a table, my kitchen table, and I had these big post its on the wall saying, all right, guys, we gotta figure this out or we're done. We all, we're done. And all of a sudden the chefs say, why don't we do brunch on Sundays? Because now it's a matter of self preservation, right? And you start to start to do the things that you have to do. You know, rarely is the right thing to do the easiest thing to do. Right. And so, and so it forced us to make the decisions and the trade offs. And, but again, I mean, Mus and I, when we first opened, we're like, we're gonna have to be closed on Sundays because we need at least one day off. But it never really occurred to us, well, shoot, if we open on Sundays and we have a really nice brunch and a really nice dinner, maybe we could actually afford to have more managers. And we'll have maybe two days off. Right. Delegated until later on and so things like that. So, you know, Gear two is when, you know, Chris hall, he. He became. He came into our orbit pretty early after. Early after we had opened. You know, we became fast friends. He was coming in on Friday nights after his shifts at Canoe, bringing in nice wine and everyone. We'd just cook and we just hang out and just chat and just commiserate. And we'd have regular guests who'd come in. And we started calling it Friday Night Follies. And, you know, one thing led to another. And also we're talking about him becoming a partner in our business. And it was originally going to be another must and Turner's, but that, that fell through and I'm glad it did. And it ended up becoming Local 3. And so there's a building right behind me. We had Chris and his wife Julie, dump their life savings, over $60,000 into blueprints. And the building that we were supposed to go into was seized by the FDIC in June of 2009. It was owned by a bank. And basically we were told, sorry, you got to take your ball and leave the field. And we did. But the. One of the people involved in it was also connected to this restaurant called Joelle, which was one of the most well known restaurants in the Southeast. And Joel had won the James Beard Award. He had a Michelin star from England. He built his dream kitchen. He was funded by a billionaire. And everyone knew about this restaurant, everyone knew about this kitchen, but everyone also knew that, that they weren't really endearing themselves to Atlanta. And In April of 2010, I got a call from Bob Anderson, who is the head guy, said, hey, what do you think about taking over Joel? Which effectively sounded like, how do you feel about driving the Ferrari? I was like, oh my God. And then we started thinking about, like, oh, can we afford new tires or an oil change. But, you know, long story short, we. We ended up taking over the space and, you know, handed the keys to one of the most amazing kitchens and facilities, one of the most ridiculous restaurant kitchens ever built.

[A]

Is that where we are today at bigger?

[B]

It's bigger than the dining room?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's very illogical in many ways. And we were able to figure out a way to make it logical.

[A]

You wouldn't expect to. To see a restaurant here.

[B]

It's.

[A]

There's no curb off the beaten peel.

[B]

Like, it's none.

[A]

There isn't a curb.

[B]

Zero. There's none. Yeah, you wouldn't know it's here, unless someone told you it's here. And we just felt, we've always felt strongly that if we can create something worth it, worth a damn, that people would. Would find it and the ball would be in our court. And we just wanted to make sure that there was parking.

[A]

Yeah, well, I was curious about that because I struggled with my truck getting here. Couldn't go into the parking garage. I hit that little swingy thing. I was like, I'm not getting in here. But anyway, I figured it out. So back to this idea of the gears, Right? So you're. You're saying you're going to second gear around 2008, when Chris hall comes on board, you get this opportunity.

[B]

2010, okay, so, well, Chris came into the mix, but it was 2010 is when it became a partner. We started Local 3. Yep.

[A]

Yep. And that's where we're sitting today in terms of knowing what you know now, where you are today. Reflecting back on how tight your operations were, communications systems, processes, you know, leadership. Obviously, you're opening a second location. So you were doubling your cash flow, theoretically, or maybe more, because you have more seats here, I would imagine. Right?

[B]

Yeah. So, yeah, this. We hit the. Yeah. It was in the middle of the recession still, and there was no other restaurants opening. So we. We came out of the chute really strong and we had. We had built up a pretty solid reputation with Muscin Turner. So there's a lot of curiosity around what we were doing. Doing.

[A]

So if you're in second gear now, the second location with a new team member that's elevating you. What does that look like? What were you doing now that you weren't doing before?

[B]

Oh, figuring out. Figuring out what I was going to do because I had spent five years running being Turner of Musc and Turner as working in the business, general manager.

[A]

So this freed you up to get outside of the business?

[B]

Well, yes. And so part of it was, Chris, you're saying, hey, I. I'm gonna need. I'd like your help down at Local 3. And I'm not really sure what that looks like, so making myself available for him. But. So it forced me to essentially hand the wheel to someone else at Musson Turner's. And then all of a sudden, I have this autonomy and freedom that I had not experienced for five years. I was like, A lot of folks who get into this business, you're pursuing your dream and you find yourself tethered or chained to something that. That may not be exactly what you wanted. Is very interesting thing. And so figuring out who I am, my identity, my role, how I was going to contribute now that I'm like in two places and I've got a, you know, with Chris and very capable leader and restaurateur who wanted me around but didn't necessarily need me around. So that was a really interesting phase for me. And so I started to lean into finding ways to educate and empower our team by being a conduit to really good information and facilitating conversations and sharing with them things like getting things done and helping them with a lot of the soft skills and competencies that make all the difference in the world and whether someone's going to be successful in this business. And by that I mean they experience more days of peace of mind than not and more days of balance and more days of feeling fulfilled and contributing at a high level, not just constantly in the weeds feeling like they're in a white collar prison with nowhere to go.

[A]

Yeah. And I think ironically. So I started listening to Getting Things Done a week before or two weeks before reconnecting with you on this trip. And I listened to our first episode and you mentioned that book. And I was like, what are the odds? I think there's been a lot of like things over the past couple weeks of bringing me here. The points of contact. Right. Bringing me here to share the story of what's going on with Heidi's team, or team Heidi. Anyway, that book was another one of those Points of contact, Getting things done. It's very similar. I noticed while listening to it that the philosophies in that book kind of overlap. Eos. Are you familiar with the entrepreneurial operating system?

[B]

I am. I'm not intimate with it, but I've traction very.

[A]

I have some familiarity, this idea of just having a plan and then making the list of the things that have to happen to get you to that plan. And then as things are coming into your world, prioritizing what needs to happen. Now, is this something I can do? Is this something I can delegate? So this is when you start, like, how did. What else is going on and how you're improving the systems in your business around that time that gets you to third gear, which we haven't discussed yet.

[B]

So, you know, going from one location to two. Now you're starting to figure out, okay, what are the systems for accounting for?

[A]

Were you doing in house?

[B]

Yeah, we've always done it in house. Tax work has been outside of it, but we've always done it in housekeeper. I started. I mean, it was me as the bookkeeper to start. And one of the reasons why Eleanor came into such unbelievable favor with us is because she was willing to help with the accounting and she became our first quote unquote controller. She hadn't been trained for that, but she was guarding the books and helping us with that. But yeah, it forces you to take a hard look at your training. Okay, what's the training going to be like at this one versus this one? Really starting to understand, okay, what are the common, what are the common elements of this? What's under the hood, what's in the engine? It's like if you look at a BMW that all the engines are kind of the same.

[A]

So you're working on the, you're improving the systems. You're. You, you had a very simple carburetor driven car getting started, and now you're starting to figure out, well, how do we get the fuel injection? How do we.

[B]

Yeah, I would, I would love to think that we were that in tune, but I don't, I mean, just full transparency, I don't think we were. You know, and Chris brought, Chris had had some amazing training with some unbelievable organizations, so he was bringing some great systems to the, to the mix is certainly from a culinary standpoint, but he also, he's a rare chef who made it a point to actually learn how to be a GM as well. And because he wanted to have that, well, that well rounded understanding of how to, how to run a restaurant. And he had worked for a buddy of ours, Jay Swift, and was very in tune and a student of that. So there was, it wasn't just the, the culinary element. It was the entire guest experience that Chris became very focused on and very, you know, it was his desire to be excellent and elite at all of it.

[A]

So we started this conversation talking about putting yourself in adversity, you know, pushing yourself to be uncomfortable. What, what was that next push for you guys that really helped you get into third gear to help you grow to that next phase? So, you know, we're talking about. Eleanor was 2012, two years after this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then, then for, I think about, I mean, Staple House was a part of your group. Is that safe to say it was separate?

[B]

No, no, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that. That's a whole. So, so the, the next, our next step was after we had opened Eleanor's was opening up Common Quarter, which is a restaurant that is no longer in business.

[A]

When did that close?

[B]

That closed in 2018.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

And we opened that in 2013.

[A]

Okay. Common what?

[B]

Common Quarter.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And so that was a five year period that I refer to as our 1.5 million dollar PhD on how not to grow.

[A]

Okay, so this was maybe gear three, the lessons.

[B]

Yeah, we dropped the transmission.

[A]

Yeah. So 2000, what year was common ground or common court corner?

[B]

2013.

[A]

So a year after Eleanor. I think that was a cool story too. You guys basically had that opportunity to expand your footprint.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Didn't the building next door.

[B]

Yeah, the space next door became available during the Great Recession and it was sitting empty.

[A]

And I love that approach to scaling is just swallowing the adjacent space around you as you get better. Yeah, if that, I mean it's sometimes has to be convenient for a space to be available, but if that space opens up and you can increase your footprint and grow and scale as you need it. You know, I think that that approach is so good. I mean, is there any lesson there with Eleanor's 2012 before jumping ahead to the, the common corner?

[B]

I mean a big, a big lesson there was understanding the more you play hard to get, the faster they'll find you. Especially with, you know, that's kind of the, you know, we're at least at that point a few years into the digital connectivity of, of society and, and then you know, building a unique, a unique destination in the, in our community. Something that was not available. It was symbiotic, but not anything like Muss and Turner's.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But it fed off this every, everything. You know, the same kitchen and the same P L. Saying all of it.

[A]

Well, in this one moment you get to expand your footprint dining space, almost double it. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you also get to add a huge liquor.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Component which is huge revenue.

[B]

Yes. Right.

[A]

So that all helps. So your margins are getting probably twice. I wouldn't be surprised if you doubled your margins with that move.

[B]

Yeah, I'd say that's fair to say. I mean it had a massive impact. We effectively put a million dollars on the top line at a very nice margin.

[A]

And all of your concepts are really cool. Here's another thing I'm starting to figure out. Whoever is in charge of the branding and developing and the feel, the vibe is who's. Whose lean is that.

[B]

So at this point it's clearly Chris.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

He's, he's definitely the creative one. He, you know, everything external facing is kind of his, his lane. It doesn't mean that we're, we haven't been involved in all this and to varying degrees we were very involved. But. But as we've progressed it's been more About Chris. And in the way. In my lane is more internal, facing more. More staff. More staff, experience, culture. And then. And then Chris is more external.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so.

[A]

So where would Todd fall into all this?

[B]

So Todd is. Is. You know, he's a little bit of both. But Todd, you know, his is, you know, at this point, you know, he's. All right, let me. Let me back up. Todd is one of the most gifted, talented, passionate, and knowledgeable chefs you'll ever find. You know, Chris will say it. He said, you know, he is the best cook he knows. He's a culinary savant. He is a mad scientist. You ask if he wants to go figure out how to make whatever, pick a Szechuan dish. He is combing through YouTube. Whether he understands the language or not, he is gonna figure out how to make the best dry fried green beans you've ever had in your life. Or, you know, or, for example, Todd, let's figure out pizza. And he goes down that rabbit hole and makes the best possible dough that he can imagine and finds the best possible sauce and everything else. And so Todd is. And very openly, from the beginning, has been. He loves to cook. He's more of a technician. He's. Show me the pile of wood, and I'll. And I'll. And I'll chop it. Less about wanting to manage, you know, a bunch of people or a bunch of projects or a bunch of problems. He. He likes to be on the ground, in the trenches, teaching, coaching, holding people accountable. He's also. He's incredibly gifted in fixing things and spatially. He can look at a space and just kind of lay it.

[A]

I think technician is the word.

[B]

Right? Yeah. And so. And then where Chris is, you know, he's very talented from a culinary perspective. Todd went to CIA. Chris learned from George Perrier at Lebec, Finn and Daniel Ballude. And, you know, he. He. He went to Haverford and didn't finish because he just wanted to cook and he wanted to learn how to cook. And Todd was at Ithaca College and one credit shy from graduating because he was reading more cookbooks than school books and decided to go to CIA. But two different. Two very different paths. But Chris is. You know, Chris is taken. He's always taken an interest in. In more of the running, the operational stuff and the people stuff and the systems and the structures and all. All that stuff. So it's. They've complemented. They've complemented each other very well.

[A]

Got it. So now we understand the lanes Back to your PhD in I can't remember the exact term you use.

[B]

You said PhD on how not to grow.

[A]

Yeah, that's what it was. This is 2013 common corner. If you could just reflect on that time, what was the big lesson? How did this make you better?

[B]

So I had known intellectually. So I think all of us as humans are in an eternal state of being two years old. And what I mean by that is, no matter how often or how loudly someone said something was hot, it wasn't until we touched hot that we actually understood what the hell they were talking about.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think we're all in that state to a certain extent. So intellectually, I understood. I'd read Good to Great and Built to Last and all these, you know, incredible books that talk about all of the core principles that allow companies to endure and growing when you're not ready. Growing just to grow. Bad idea. But ultimately started. We made a decision to grow because we were worried about. There was, you know, part of it was, okay, we. We need more revenue, so you're chasing revenue to support everything. We were potentially going to lose some folks if we didn't create opportunity. And we were. And I'll say for myself, I was worried about that. And so started ignoring some of the intellectual understanding of things because our emotional state was not. Not matching up to our intellectual understanding. So all of a sudden, a location presents itself. It was a good deal. We start figuring, okay, well, all these people that. That knew us in. In Smyrna, you know, at that time, didn't have the best reputation for a school system. So a lot of younger folks who are living in Smyrna coming to Muss and Turner's having babies, moving up to East Cobb, we're like, well, shoot, we've got all these people that know us. They're up there. So we started paying attention to the wrong signals and ultimately got into partner partnership with someone who, when we didn't have a whole lot of clarity and definition around what it meant to be an operating partner and that it effectively is a general manager, and you're going to have to work in your ass off and be there all the time for at least a few years in order to get the routes to take. And so there was. There was a disconnect in. In that there was a disconnect in the expectations of. About what we were going to do and how present we were going to be. And effectively we had. We were swimming upstream before we even opened. And we didn't really have a high level of preparation and the right people in place when we opened and we opened, and it was fast and furious, as Musk described, it was like, we're trying to drive a Porsche down a dirt road.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In a marketplace that was. Was less than forgiving. I'll just put it to you that way. Where we had opened up in Smyrna, there was six restaurants within a mile and a half. Everyone was like, thank God someone's trying to do something. So we had unbelievable amount of Runway and grace and patience from our community in Smyrna when we opened Muss and Turner's, because they were like, okay, these guys are figuring it out. They're figuring it out. We're going to give them a shot. Give them a shot. Give them a shot. And our experience up there was very different. So it went up really quickly, and then it came down, and then all of a sudden, when it's not working economically, that magnifies all of the stuff that's lurking below. You know, there was dysfunction within our partnership at that point that we weren't really addressing to the level we needed to. So it's like, you know, it's like the people who have, you know, they're married and they're like, things aren't really worth. Have another baby they're not getting. Yes. Just have another baby. That'll make things better. And so. So there's just a lot of things that. That I'm. I'm. I'm. You know, I'm grateful for it. I really am. Because we've been, you know, failure. It's only failure if you don't take the mistakes and consciously reflect on them and understand, okay, how can I apply this going forward?

[A]

I call this putting the energy out, not in. I think when we're younger or early, we think we got to do more, we got to scale. We have to do more.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But the reality is we have to do what we're already doing better.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And that means investing in people, building your bench, bursting at the seams, where you know that if you. If you. If there is an opportunity, we can take half of our team and move those culture carriers to that next location and be just as strong with the people that move into that space. Space.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That. That fill that void, like the car, like the. The. The slipstream, like. And if you just. If you build that bench and you build your systems and you're, you know, doing 15, 20 profit and your lines are out the door every day, then you. The opportunities come knocking, and then you can be selective. Like, what is the thing that is us that makes sense for us. That is a good deal. You know, and really setting that intention and making the vision. And when you have that vision and something comes into focus and it fits in the frame.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

If it's not a hell, yeah, it's a no. Right?

[B]

It. That's yes. Ideally, for sure.

[A]

Easier said than done. Yeah, I recognize that. So. So basically, what I'm hearing from you is you guys, you. You chose to grow, but it was outward growth, not internal growth.

[B]

Correct. And then that's a big lesson that I've learned that. That, you know, most people refer to growth as a good thing. And the way I was. I don't remember where I heard this, but it was like, that is true, except that is not true. Because as someone who has cancer. Right. And that really hit me. And, you know, there's ways to grow, you know, and everyone thinks about the top line and growing more units and more, and it's like, okay, the bottom line can grow as well, and the improve, you know, the quality of what you're doing can grow and improve. So it's. It's dangerous. Growth is the pursuit of growth, especially just for growth is incredibly, incredibly dangerous. Right.

[A]

So you guys. So in 2012, something else crazy happens. Susan. I didn't know about 2013 with the common corner. Quarter, quarter, quarter. So just going through the timeline right now, 2012, you. I mean, I think this is when Ryan Heidinger.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Gets diagnosed.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And he's one of your chefs at what restaurant?

[B]

Must and Turner's Must and Turner.

[A]

He's diagnosed. That hits the team hard. 2014, giving kitchen is created. 2013, 13 giving kitchen is graded. 2016 staple house is created. You're not directly tied to that, but you helped make it come into fruition. You were part of the vision.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Of making that happen.

[B]

Yes. So. So as succinctly as I can put it, we had the first Team Heidi event to raise money for Ryan and Jen. This was in January 27th of 2013. Huge success. Ryan had just ascended to just a very. Become a very evolved human being very quickly. It was absolutely remarkable. Stood in front of a crowd of a thousand people, looked around the room and just said, I'm just a cook. And look around this room. I've already won. And he declared his diagnosis of cancer a gift. And the tears of sadness in that moment literally turned into tears of admiration and love. And it created a tidal wave of love that. That three days later, I had sent Ryan an email saying that I thought he needed to pursue their dream restaurant. Called Staple House. I thought it was important for him. I need. I felt like he needed something on the other side of this to pull him through. And he had been pursuing this for, gosh. It had been four years at that point with Jen. And it was crushing me that we were gonna. We were opening this restaurant called Common Quarter, and one of our guys was going to get his chance to be in business. And Ryan all of a sudden had this diagnosis, and he had, had. He had a hell of a time getting in the business in the first place. I said, why don't, why don't we pursue this? And I'm going to do everything I can. I'm going to give you everything I have to help you. And how about instead of it being a for profit, we turn it into a not for profit? And you actually use this as a way to make money to help the people that have lifted you up in your time of need. And it was modeled after East Lake Golf Club, which I referred to earlier. I was like, why not? Why can't we? And so the pursuit initially was we were going to open up the dream restaurant called Staple House. Thankfully, he and Jen said, yes, let's go. And right after that was Brian's sister, Kara Heiding. Her and Ryan Smith, who still own it to this day, and they're amazing. And so. But quickly we figured out, okay, well, it can't be a not for profit restaurant. It needs to be a for profit restaurant, but it needs to be owned by a not for profit. That's okay. And then that's how we ended up figuring out we had to start what we ended up calling the Giving Kitchen. And so the Giving Kitchen owned Staple House early on. And so the profits of Staple House flowed into the Giving Kitchen. But what happened?

[A]

So a restaurant can't be a not for profit. Why? Why?

[B]

Well, that's what we were told, that this would be the model. I mean, everything about what we were

[A]

doing was food trucks that are not for profits. Is that an Atlanta thing or.

[B]

This was. We had a big time tax attorney come in and say, look, this isn't the model. If you guys want to do what you want to do, you need to start a not for profit, and it needs to own the for profit.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

Whether that's the only way, I don't know. This is what we were told. We. We've never done this before. So steeped in naivete. It was ridiculous.

[A]

So the non profit or not for profit, and there's a difference between a not for profit and nonprofit correct.

[B]

Effectively a 501C3 is what. Call it what you want. It's. It needs to be profitable. But the way that the, the treatment of it is different with the irs.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

But it's. It's effectively the same. And then there's a 501, there's another form, which are more like organizations and associations, but I don't know much about that. Got it.

[A]

So you develop Giving Kitchen to own Staple House.

[B]

Correct. And so we're. We're barreling down that road raising money. So we got a bank to step up and do a. A capital loan for $850,000. We're raising money, doing things like. It was like indiegogo. I don't know if Surround. It's like a GoFundMe.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Crowd sourcing, crowdsourcing. And. But as that's happening, all of a sudden all of this money starts being raised for Giving Kitchen. Restaurants were doing events. Sweetwater Brewery decided to do a beer for us. Woodford Reserve started to do. They did a whiskey for us. And all of a sudden these, all these different revenue streams start flowing in. While Staplehaus is. That didn't open until September of 2015.

[A]

15.

[B]

And then. And then that struggled when it first opened happened. It was, it was, it was a ticket only it was a very high end experience in the old fourth Ward. And so that wasn't happening. And then all of a sudden, in March of 2016, we're literally sitting around a table in the upstairs of Staple House and talking about, okay, we've got. How are we? We got to figure this out. And Ryan Smith lifts his head from the computer and goes, holy shit, we just got nominated best new restaurant in America by the James Beard Foundation. We're like, what? Now we're talking about going to Chicago. And all of a sudden that brings an unbelievable level of recognition. They didn't end up getting it. It was Shia that year. Well, deserving, but still to be nominated. I was nominated, but I mean, it changed everything. And then next thing you know, Bono, Bono Petit names the best new restaurant in America. GQ magazine names at best new restaurant in America, and they've got lightning in a bottle. And all of a sudden, Staple House is just off to the races. And now Staple House is bringing recognition to the Giving Kitchen while we're still effectively in Atlanta and thinking about moving into more of Georgia. But the whole time scared to death we were going to run out of money if we grew too fast.

[A]

Growing Giving Kitchen.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Got it. Yeah. So that recognition that press Primes the engine. Giving Kitchen still. You said still owned. To this day is still owned by giving. Sorry, stapled houses.

[B]

No, that's not. No. So transaction happened. It was right. Right before the pandemic and it became self evident. A couple of things. One, it would be best for Ryan and Kara to be able to continue pursuing the dream of Staple House and have full ownership of it for them to be able to achieve their needs as a family. And then Jen, long term, had already she was working with them, but she had the desire to. To be involved and, and get a formal role at Giving Kitchen.

[A]

She was a CEO, Correct.

[B]

What's that?

[A]

Was she the CEO? I interviewed her.

[B]

No, no, no, no, no. Jen is a. No, Jen was a. Initially she started as a. As a spokesperson and then now her role is she's head of individual giving for the organization. But we've had three different. We've had two executive directors and we now have a CEO. Allison Padilla Goodman.

[A]

I did have Jen on the show. If you guys, if you're listening, you want to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you want to go deeper into that story, I think it was maybe a year and A half, almost two years ago, I think 20, 24, I think, when we had her on the show. I'll try to get that link in the show notes if you want to check it out to kind of. We go deep into that story.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I mean, I'm tempted to go deep into that story now. But what are the pull. What are things. If you could pull just a few things out of this story. I, I know we're going to wrap up today talking about the future of what that looks like, what you want to do, the direction you want to take that. But up into this point of the story, where we are in the timeline, 2016, 17, 18. What do you want to pull?

[B]

Wow. I mean, so the Giving Kitchen. I mean, there's so much that that came from, that it has come from that, you know, for one, it grew pretty quickly. You know, just give it, I guess, give everyone a glimpse of where we are today. We're, you know, the organization has now served food service workers in all 50 states in a couple of ways. One, we either provide financial assistance for someone who is not able to work due to injury, illness, disease. It could be a death in the family, it could be a fire. And we basically bridge the gap from can't work, therefore can't earn, to getting back to being able to work giving Runway. And then we also have a stability network where we connect to literally Hundreds of different organizations throughout the community. So we've helped over 38,000 food service workers. It all started with one chef here, Ryan. We've provided financial assistance up over. It's over $17 million. And, and so one of the reasons why it's been able to grow so quickly, because it's resonated so deeply within our community as a community, restaurant community in particular, we get, we get hit up to participate in a lot of different great causes to help raise money and awareness. And you were very approachable. We're public and people with money like to pay for chefs to come in their homes and wine experiences and all that. And it's great. It's a part of being a good steward and it's part of what we should be doing. But the Giving Kitchen was the first time that we've collectively informally put the oxygen mask on ourselves first as an industry. So it's very self evident to those who've been in the industry for a long time, because we're all in hospitality, which means we take care of our people. And we weren't the first ones to decide to take care of our brother who was in need. But we knew there was a constant need for it. And Ryan was not alone. And for whatever reason, we just said, why not? If not us, then who, and if not now, then when. And so we decided to light the match. And so that's been incredibly powerful to see the organization take root so, so quickly, but we haven't even scratched the surface of the, of the people in need in our industry.

[A]

Yeah. And we're gonna, we're gonna unpackage that. I think that's a good way to wrap up today's conversation.

[B]

Sure. We get there. Absolutely.

[A]

But I do want to make sure you know what comes out. So, I mean, you have a lot going on. When I was doing the research, it, it kind of looked like you guys plateaued for a while. And it's because on the research, I was doing it like that. The, the story of the Giving Kitchen wasn't really a part of the unsucky. It was separate. You know, it's kind of like stands on its own as a story.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So on the timeline when I was looking at the, you know, doing some research, I was like, what was going on during this? I was like, well, they're consumed with this giant project, probably. They were. Yeah. So that's where the energy was going, was solving this problem, launching this, giving this, this, this program, getting involved in the community in so many different ways. But then around it looks like 20, 19, 18 you have musson Turner East Cobb. So now the, the maybe the focus is the giving Kitchen is on its own in terms of its.

[B]

No, not necessarily. So so Must and Turner's East Cobb was basically. We converted common quarter into our partner who is Common quarter was his, was his brainchild and baby decided that he wanted to get out of the business and so he, we made that decision together and we decided to convert it into a muscle. And Turner's in East Cobb got it.

[A]

Which. That closed in 20.

[B]

That was 18. So that five year period was 13 8. So we. That it was effectively open for a about a year.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

And so a lot of lessons in that as well. You know, it's, you know I would say the big one is coming to grips with reality sooner and it's okay to, to say it's not working and choose to put your energy into what is. And, and thankfully my wife had. It was in January of. Was 18 and she, it was one morning, she said honey, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta let this go. It's gonna kill you. This being the, the whole East Cobb experience. And must is. It was Mustn Turner's East Cobb at that point.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And just making that decision to say it. We've had enough.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Was unbelievably liberating and it allowed me to start to go back to focusing on what was working.

[A]

So this I think is another shift. Now you're in fourth gear, right?

[B]

Maybe. Yeah.

[A]

I think that shift was you putting, starting to put yourself first. I think in seeing what was happening to the people around you, dying young, not taking care of themselves. You, you lose 50 pounds at some point in this, this journey. You're, you're drinking, you're working too hard, you're not taking care of yourself.

[B]

Yeah. So yeah, 2018, so I was what, 46. And I went to get a very thorough physical exam. I wanted to know what was going on. And so it was like a six hour complete under the hood, everything. And, and on the other side of it I was told I was, you know, I was obese, my cholesterol is high and I probably had sleep apnea. And I was like, okay, is that it? He's like, yeah. I go, nothing else? You don't see anything else?

[A]

I'm sure you're probably scared from the people around you getting sick.

[B]

100. Yeah. And. And he said, no. I said, so the ball's in my court. He's like, yep. I said, okay. So for whatever reason I intellectually understood what I needed to do. Everyone pretty much everyone does. But for whatever reason is, it was at that moment I was like okay, I don't want to be the guy had, I mean an amazing, we had an amazing business, an amazing wife, amazing kids. I was like I don't want to be that guy that just self sabotages because I can't apply enough discipline to allow for myself to have the vitality and the longevity that I really deserve and they deserve. And so I was able to start making a pretty significant shift in how I was going to live my life at that point. But that was more of a physical thing at that point. I wasn't, I had not started on any kind of self work. Yeah. At that point and but your, your

[A]

mind, body, you know those, those things they play off of each other.

[B]

They do but I bet, but typically it needs to really start from within first. But, but I, but yeah, I don't, you know one of the ironies of, of you know, of life is you don't really understand how precious it is and what really matters until you face your own mortality or you or you ever feel front row seat to somebody else's. And so at that point in life I had one of my best friends in college die in my arms after he drowned when I was 23. I had Ryan Heidinger lose his life at age 36. And then at the same time Ryan was battling stage four gallbladder cancer. One of my other dear friends, Terry hall, who was a food truck owner, had stage four lung cancer. And he passed away about a month after Ryan did and he was diagnosed six months prior to. And so I had, let's just say an ample supply of ice cold bottles of shut the fuck up. I could open and hand anyone and my perspective on life and what really mattered change. It shifted completely. And so yeah I started to start to see this pursuit of more and growth and a lot of identity based things of you know, trying to prove things to others. It was just all just not completely unnecessary and at great expense.

[A]

Yeah. So I kind of just want to jump to where you are today. Yeah, we kind of painted the picture earlier today. Where you are. How many concepts all in remind us how many concepts do you currently own?

[B]

So it's seven. Seven separate concepts but there's four p. Ls got it.

[A]

And where are you today in terms if you're in fifth gear or maybe you're in fourth year. Maybe you're maybe or maybe this is six speed.

[B]

Right. Yeah.

[A]

There's a future Right. But where are you today in terms of your evolution, your growth, how you run today? The points of evolution we haven't really discussed that are what's moving the needle in your business? Yeah. Like, what comes to mind in terms of, like, how you've continued to level up, to elevate.

[B]

So it's, it's what I'm focused on and what we're working on is more a very internal, very under the hood. It's very much relative to our partnership, our partnership dynamic, our framework, our roles, decision rights. In just getting, getting, you know, we're literally. That's a big project that I'm working on with our business coach right now is, is setting the scaffolding for what our partnership is.

[A]

What does that look like?

[B]

So, I mean, looks like, I mean, a lot of what I just said, I mean, clarifying roles, going through, clarifying decision rights chart, you know, clarifying hierarchy and just, and then there's all these other, there's. There's all this other stuff of. Okay, you know, we're getting, you know, we're all in our, in our mid-50s. Okay. If. What are we, where are we going with this? Or what is, what does exit look like? I mean, is it. We're just going to shut it down? Are we going to sell it to someone? Are we going to give it to our kids? Are we going to. And you know, we've got clarity on what it is. We want it. We want to be able to pass this along to the people that are working with us today who've been pouring their, their, their time, energy, talent look like. Yeah, well, that's, that's what we're figuring out. What does that look like? We've got, I mean, two of our.

[A]

Part.

[B]

Two of our junior partners. Jimmy, Jimmy Cho, who's our director of operations, he has equity now. And, and then Susie Otto, who's our director of support services, is all the back office features. She has equity now. And so we've already made a step in this direction.

[A]

5 Total Partner Equity partners.

[B]

Correct. And we don't have any other equity partners. We've never sold any equity to investors. It's always been private debt or secured debt. And so we've already made a step in that direction. And we've got a lot of amazing people that have been with us a long time. And to be able to offer them an opportunity for them to grow, realize their full potential, maybe realize some financial potential that they will not realize any other way except to do it on their own, but mitigate or eliminate those risk to do that, then that is, that excites us. We don't. You know, Todd has children, I have children. Chris does not. None of us are sitting here today saying, we want our kids involved in this business, not because this is a bad business. We want our kids to do what they want to do, and we don't want to force that hand on them. If they're interested, then great, let it happen naturally. We don't sit here right now going, okay, we're going to, we're going to go find a buyer for this. That, that doesn't excite us and have someone. We've seen too many people sell, whether it be to another owner or private equity and literally die at the death of a thousand paper cuts. It's awful.

[A]

Yeah. I think that's part of the narrative right now is everybody's chasing that private equity. Everybody wants that money to get to the, to get bigger. And it's like, why? What are you sacrificing? In order to scale.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think that's the biggest thing that's come out of this conversation, the conversations I've been having this week where, with you, with Robbie Kler, with Ryan Pernis, is that we want to create something special. We want balance.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like, balance is what we want. We want time with friends and family. And I think that that needs to come through. I have a question for you. Why not just pay your people more and give them bigger titles? Why. Why give them equity?

[B]

I mean, equity is something that can create passive income for them down the road. And so they're working towards something that can continue to pay them when they're no longer working. And so to us, you know, that's. If you, if you're, if you, if you understand business, there's varying. There's varying, varying under. There's a lot of differentiation in business, but ultimately it's. It's an asset, assets that can operate with or without you and create passive income. And if it can't, it's okay. It's still a business, but it's still partially a job or fully a job.

[A]

It's a liability.

[B]

It's not a pejorative statement. It's just understanding. Right. You know, there's a great. I think it's Guy Kiyosaki cash flow quadrant.

[A]

And is he the same guy that

[B]

wrote rich dad, poor dad? Yes. And so the cash flow quadrant is something that is. I've paid attention to for a long time, is just understanding which quadrant you're in and you're an employee, you're self employed, you're a business owner, or you're an investor. And not saying any of them are good or bad, it's just understanding where you are in the game board. And so a lot of people go from employee to self employed and the only way they can make money is if they trade their time and talents for it. And then graduating to business owner. Best definition I heard was it was his, was that you own a business. If you can leave your business for a year or more and it continues to operate without you as well, or better, you now own a business. Anything less, you own a partial job. And if you're really good at the business thing, then you might be able to make enough money to become an investor and then start investing in the Bs or the Ss in order for them to achieve that.

[A]

And so that's always what the best restaurateurs are.

[B]

That's exactly right.

[A]

We've done it. We can invest in you. What's your dream? What's your vision? We'll show you how. One of the things I've been saying, and I get a lot of weird looks when I say this, is that if you look, if you look at like what the National Restaurant association is saying and other entities, they're saying we need to create more career paths, we need more jobs, we need better jobs. Like I think we need more owners.

[B]

I, I don't know about that and I'm not against that. I mean, I'm eternally in love with entrepreneurs.

[A]

But to your point, why not give people a form of passive income? Why not teach them the game of business? I feel like if we don't offer something.

[B]

So I'm not saying don't teach people the game of business at all. Actually, I've spent the last 20 years doing that and I will continue to do that because anyone who wants to pursue it, sorry for cutting. I'd love to help them and, and, and, and share what I've, what I've learned and help them, you know, help them expedite the learning curve. But.

[A]

So what did I say that kind of struck you a little off kilter?

[B]

Well, not everyone. So one of the, one of the reasons, one of the challenges, I'll just say for our, for our industry, one of the reasons why. There's a lot of reasons why it's, it's considered, it's not just considered. It is a risky business. Let's just call it what it is. There's a thousand ways to lose money, but One of the, one of the bigger challenges is the bar. The barrier of entry is very low, relatively speaking. Anyone can get into this business. And you got effectively a lot of people that are handing out leases that can no longer fill their spaces with retail because retail is online, that are, that are filling them with restaurants and putting people in there who don't quite understand the difference between running a restaurant, running a business, and they're very different. And it's one of the reasons why so many fails because if you don't understand the business side of it or you're not willing to do the business side of it, it is a live performance and it is so many variables and it gets exposed really quickly. And so there's money flowing to people who don't necessarily understand the business. And so that's my hesitation is okay, I want people to own, don't get me wrong, I just see so many people being set up for failure because they're chasing their dreams, they're chasing their ambition, and they don't understand what they don't know. And it's a very high stakes, very risky business to get into and not know what you're doing.

[A]

I hear you. I think what you're describing is not everyone should be an entrepreneur.

[B]

I think everyone should be an entrepreneur. As a matter of fact, an entrepreneur

[A]

is an artist, an entrepreneur is a creator. Correct. I think we're all in some regard a creator. I think to be human is to be a creator. We, if you're religious, I'm open minded, but we are all made in the form of God. God is a creator.

[B]

Right.

[A]

In my mind, if you, a chef is a creator. Right. Not all chefs should be business owners. No, they could be, but, but you see a lot of chefs that own stake in the business because they're a key part of the, the what that business needs.

[B]

So, okay, so when you say owner, they have an equity, they're, they have an equity share, not necessarily doing something on their own. Is that correct?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah. Okay, I'm following you now. So, so yeah, I'm not opposed, I'm not opposed to that at all in theory. So another, another option for an exit would be to sell it to our employees. Right. And that certainly, that is, that's something worthy of exploration and of interest. But so the practicality of that from a long term perspective, because when you have equity and it's vested equity, it is whether they show up or not, they still have it. And so there's, there's some, there's some nuance around that you got to be.

[A]

That's what.

[B]

Partnership to anyone. Right. Yeah. Uh, and so, but over time, to be able to give someone that opportunity to pull that lever over time where you get to. You get to earn that trust, and they get to demonstrate that. That they're. They're in it to win it. And you get to. I get to 100 door for them.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I mean, I am all about it. That's the path that we see ourselves taking.

[A]

Are you familiar with Charleston uptown hospitality?

[B]

No.

[A]

So what they. What they do, I think is really fascinating. They. They let. After 5 years tenure working with the company, you become eligible to become a partner. If you. You don't just because you've been there five years automatically get like that privilege.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You get to throw your hat in to the. You know, do you propose that I would like to become a partner in the business? But you also have to put money up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So say the business is valued at $2 million.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

You have to put up 1%. You have to come up with $20,000.

[B]

Right.

[A]

To be able to invest as a partner. And then I think, I just. I think what they're doing is really cool because it's getting people that literally buy in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To earn it so that you put your time in. We. You are one of us. We. You have our culture like, you are aligned with who we are. You are a culture carrier. And you get to invest in your job, your career, and your hard work will directly affect the cash flow, the profit that you make. And they teach you. Oh, well, you know, you could put that 1% that you get a profit or whatever it is into a high yield savings account, and then you can buy another percent. Or if we open another restaurant, you can use that money. You know, so you.

[B]

That's great. I. I'm gonna look them up. That's great.

[A]

I'll make an introduction.

[B]

Yeah. I love that. That's awesome.

[A]

Yeah. And I think, like, I think this is a kind of a good segue into what I've been really chomping at the bit to get into. I think we're gonna go over our two hours a little bit. But, you know, you've kind of come to this realization that what you've in your team have created in Giving Kitchen is like trying to put a bandaid on an ax wound.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Like, it's not enough. There will never be enough. Well, no, by enough resources to solve the problem. Money to take care of people in need. There will never be enough money to take care of all the people in our industry that need the help.

[B]

Yeah. Let me give some quick numbers for folks to understand that there's over 16 million people working in food service. And the CDC says that effectively there's about 1% of the population in crisis at any given time. So if you do some quick Napkin math, that's 1.6 million. And the average financial award for the giving kitchen is $2,000. So if Eric, once he has the ability to have the microphone, to blow the whistle, and every single person in the food industry all of a sudden understood that this assistance is available, we would run out of money in seconds. And so, and then it's, and then it's filling that bucket up. So, yes, you're right. So that the organization is doing remarkable job at treating the symptoms.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We need an emergency room. We have the best emergency room, you know, system in the, in the world for treating trauma as a medical, you know, is in health care. But no one can argue that as a society, health care is as messed up as anything. And effectively everyone needs to start eating a couple more carrots. And we need a preventative aspect of this in order to help solve it and make it manageable from a financial perspective. And so effectively for the giving kitchen, my contention is that we need to start looking upstream and as leaders in this industry, start looking at the broken system that we inherited. And we have the privilege of being able to impact the systems in our culture and start to invest a little differently than maybe we've seen in the past in the people, not just the product. This is first principles thinking from my perspective, because if you start viewing the people as the product, then you start to treat and view it differently. It's no longer just overhead, it's part of the experience, which means you got to charge for it in order to pay for it. And now you're gambling on whether the consumer is going to be willing to, to pay for that in a very competitive, you know, landscape. Which is one of the reasons why I had that allergic reaction to more owners. I'm like, we don't necessarily need more restaurants taxing this system.

[A]

We don't need more restaurants. There are too many restaurants.

[B]

Right. And so, but, but there is not

[A]

necessarily an equitable, equitable balance right now within the industry. Like, and I think that not so much on the independent side, but on the 100 unit plus operator side. There isn't a great distribution of wealth, in my opinion.

[B]

Yeah. So, I mean, I can't speak to that. I can only speak to my, to my World. I can, you know, I can say just looking at this objectively and looking at, let's just say the QSR segment where effectively there's, it's like a race to the bottom. And because you have a consumer who's demanding more and more for less and you've got, you've got to pay people. We've got a human, we've got anyone who's paying attention in our industry industries. We got a human capital crisis.

[A]

There is no incentive to come work in the restaurant industry. That's not true. There is incentive if you're the right person, but there's no, not a lot of financial incentive to come work, not a lot of security in the restaurant industry. And so the mission statement, the abbreviated mission statement is to inspire, empower and transform the industry. We inspire with the stories we empower with all the knowledge and experience and perspective you shared with us today. But the real mission is to transform the industry to take where we are and to make it better. To, to. And so, and I agree with you 100% that I, that the restaurant industry is broken and we need to reinvent or at least take lessons from other industries or like, it needs to fundamentally change. So when you say that the restaurant industry is broken, what specifically do you think needs? It's broken.

[B]

So let me make sure I'm clear. I'm not, I'm not coming from a place of condemnation. I'm coming from a place of exhortation.

[A]

What are the differences between the swords?

[B]

It's, it's, it's a more of a call to action and an invitation to start a different, to start a different conversation and not. It's no one's fault per se. We inherited this. This industry has grown like a hockey stick. If you look back over the last 50 years and see the number of range restaurants and our industry is now over a trillion dollars in, in revenue. Okay, that's bigger than outpaced healthcare. It's, it's bigger than agriculture, airlines and lodging combined. It's massive.

[A]

It was the third and now it's the second behind the government.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It was government health care now then rest hospital admits.

[B]

So it's, it's grown the consumer. They want more convenience. They're not cooking as much. They don't have as much time. There's all these environmental factors at play. And then in a business person is just meeting people where they're at and giving them what they want.

[A]

Is it what they want or is it what they're being told they want?

[B]

Well, I Don't. I don't know. And. Well, probably a little bit of both in a sense. And so, and so you got, you got these different segments. And so in our segment where we're more in the realm of the discretionary dollar, where people are more. They're dining, they're coming to get to be entertained or to, to escape or experience or. Yeah. Or mourn or celebrate, whatever. And, and they have a little bit more room in their wallet to pay for that. Experience is very different. And I understand it's very different pressures and very different economics.

[A]

There's a million different points where you can meet the consumer.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Whether they're on their way to work, whether they're trying to throw a surprise party, whether they just want to intimate. Like there are so many different experiences that you can deliver, whether it be optimized for convenience or a night to remember.

[B]

Yeah, right, right. And you know, as AI and automation runs its course in our industry and it's going to. Where there's a necessity, you got to figure out how to, to make food for the consumer that's demanding it without, without people. I don't like it, but it's happening. It's going to happen. There's just no way. There's no way to avoid it. But, but I contend we're leaning more and more into the human experience. I think in a digitized society with AI and automation running the course it's running, the human thing is going to be more critical and more valuable than ever because it's deeply human to have to connect with other humans in person and to feel like you belong. And for us, if you ask me or my partners what we're in the business of, and we've been saying this for years, we're in the business of human capital connection. Yes, our vehicle is food and drink and hospitality, but at its core, we're arbiters of trust 100%. That's our moat.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Great. Food and drink is being commoditized. It's like content, what AI is doing to content. And so you can get really great food and drink in a lot of places. Right. We have incredibly talented professionals who put out great product on a regular basis, but they're very clear that our unique proposition in the marketplace is not that it's how we make people feel in the experience and more importantly, how they feel in the experience. Because how they feel in the experience of working in our four walls is going to be a direct reflection in what our guest experience. Yeah. What's the root of hospitality it's, what I just said is if the people

[A]

in your four walls, the, you know the Latin root.

[B]

Oh, the Latin root is hospital. Take care.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. Yeah, absolutely. And is it hospice?

[A]

Hospice, yeah, yeah, I think or something. And I think that there's, in that realm, there's something in that word that means it's not just a one way street. I think that when we think of hospitality, we think of give. Give, give, give, give, give.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But the reality is that there's a give and take. You can't have hospitality without a reception.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And that's the guest side. But there's a, there's a dance that happens when we see somebody and they appreciate, they have gratitude, grace for the, the act of generosity. That is a dance. Correct. And that, that dance is becoming very lopsided.

[B]

Well, that you just pinpointed what I, what I, what I call the paradox of our industry. This is the elephant in the room, which is we take better care of others than we do ourselves. Which is one of the reasons why we have such a fragile system is because self care is not the priority. And we're taking really great care of each other, we're taking really great care of our guests, but we're abandoning ourselves. I know that from my own experience, and I was so hung up on taking care of everyone else, it was at my own expense. It's a savior complex of sorts. You feel like you got to rescue everyone else and it becomes part of our identity and we pour all of our energy into it, but we end up avoiding taking care of the most important thing, which is ourselves first and foremost. And that to me, we've got to put the oxygen mask on ourselves first. Which starts with everyone in our industry feeling dignity. That is it at its core. Because if you don't have dignity, it doesn't matter. You won't take care of yourself because you don't feel like you're worth it. It's worthy of respect and admiration. It's worth, it's showing up. And I can't give you dignity. It's something you got to grant yourself. I can treat you with dignity and I can create a situation in which you feel it. But ultimately you've got to give yourself the permission to believe you're worth it. You are enough. We have a lot of people in our industry who've kind of subscribed to the societal message that we don't have. It's not a real job, which is complete bullshit. And matter of fact, as AI continues in, automation runs its Course it's going to be one of the few remaining real jobs, jobs out there. It is exciting, which is exciting, but this whole idea of, of what we do, we take care of people, we feed people, we nourish them, we nourish their hearts, their souls, their minds and we bring joy. We, we, we do all these things. It's like, what's more noble than that? What an amazing way to make a living. It's not an easy way, it's a

[A]

hard way, but how do we start?

[B]

It's the hard that makes it great, right?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And it's so fulfilling and in, you know, as long as I live and as long as I'm in business, I'm going to continue to push the ceiling so that we can pay people more. But, you know, I have people come to me all the time. Why don't you guys need to pay your people more? I'm like, I would love to pay my people more. They're my freaking family more than my bloodlines in many ways. If you're willing to pay more for a burger, then hell yeah, I'm gonna pay for.

[A]

Yeah, that's where the rubber meets the mat.

[B]

So we, so we have it. We need enough of us in the industry to say, enough is enough. Have the courage to charge what we need to charge to treat the people like the product and have it show up on our P and L and make sure they have the right benefits. You know, when Ryan passed away, we made a decision that we were going to. And this is not something that we openly promote, but every person on our team is going to get a short term disability policy, a long term disability policy, and a life insurance policy. Whether they want it or not, we pay for because we proved to ourselves that we're going to pay for it anyway. You know, what we pay them in their wages, 401k plan, all of these things. If we want to attract the conventional crowd to our industry, then we're going to have to start to behave and act like that. And the only way that's going to happen is if we charge more. No one goes to Home Depot and questions the margin on the hammer, but in that margin is all of the benefits and all the salaries, all the people that work in that headquarters.

[A]

Right?

[B]

And as an industry, we've got to just make a decision and say enough is enough. We got to charge what we need to charge. We need to deliver the promise that we're saying. And those who are not willing to do that, teach their own. But you know, I Look at, you know, what Danny Meyer and Union Square Hospitality Group, you know, did with hospitality included in, in, in concept. We're. I mean, so many people are paying attention. I'm like, man, that is really, really interesting. But. And if anyone was going to pull that off, it was Danny Meyer.

[A]

Yeah. But I do believe one restaurant group's not enough.

[B]

But. But I believe if. Yeah, he had. And he has all the friends that you would need. But if enough of the right people, you know, get around the proverbial table and say, we're. We're going to be disruptors and we're going to change this trajectory of. As an industry. And that's the conversation I'm trying to start.

[A]

And that's the conversation I'm trying to amplify.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm.

[A]

We are more aligned than you realize. And, you know, I think that there are so many things, it doesn't matter what needs. Like, the only conversations I have with so many people I've set that set across for me that are good people that want to do good work, and it's literally doing the right thing is not an option. We've gotten to the point we're doing the right thing. Taking care of the people that work for you, providing them security. Just security. The most basic needs.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Is out of reach. You can't provide the people that work for you security, and you can't take the money. You can't support your local community by sourcing locally. You know, like, these things are literally out of reach for people who want to do it. It's all they want to do. They cannot financially support it. And they are filled every night. They have, you know, like, they have reservations booked because if they start raising their prices, they start to notice people don't come in. Yeah. And I think there's. It's not a simple problem. You. Like you mentioned there's an exponential growth in the amount of restaurants.

[B]

Oh, yeah. It's complex. It's endemic. It's systemic. It is very, very.

[A]

I think it has a lot to do with the fact that nobody buys retail anymore. Everything's delivered to their front door. So all this retail space, all these developments, the only thing that works in them is food and beverage. So there's just an influx of the amount of places you can go to choose to eat. To your point, you can get it delivered to you. You can get it on your drive home from work, you can get it at the grocery store, prepackaged for you. Like there is. There's never before been so many options for the consumer. So the problem cuts deep. And I don't. Complex problems. You know, the world is a complex problem.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

And I, and I don't think that we can sit here and solve the world's problems, but I think what we can do is start having conversations to look outside of the industry to, to lift each other up. You wrote a manifesto. It's not public yet. I'm very, very privileged to have been able to read it. What is the path forward? What is the next step? You mentioned stepping into dignity.

[B]

Yeah. So, I mean, to me it's, it's either the way I'm coining it now is choosing to run a dignity centered operation and choosing, you know, dignity instead of dysfunction. There's all these hidden costs in taxes that we're already paying, you know, with turnover and burnout. There's all these things that don't show up in the P and L, but they really are there. And so to invest in the dignity of our people, whether it be a P and L line item or just creating, really committing to creating a culture in which that becomes something that is, that thrives, that is celebrated, that is encouraged, you know, that doesn't really cost much and you know, just something as simple as it costs nothing to choose to make people feel safe, seen, heard, valued and appreciated every day.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that's, that's a choice. But, but, but a lot of the folks that are in our industry who are in a leadership position, it needs to start with them. They need to pick up the mirror and take a look at themselves first and say, you are worth it, you are enough. You are worthy of taking care of yourself first. And the best thing you could do for the people that are in your charge is to actually fill up your tank. Because you can't give people what you don't have and giving them permission to then start to influence those that are coming in and working in the restaurants and model that it all starts with us and how we show up. And we've got to model dignity. I always challenge what with my own dignity. And so how I was showing up and what I was modeling, I was spending all this time, you know, helping out others. But what I was modeling was something completely different.

[A]

Right. You know, you talk about in this, we are in the business of developing people. That's what needs to change. It's, it's, we're not putting out food, we're developing people, creating opportunity for people. I think we could take that one step further and we need to be in the business of developing each other restaurant owners, I think that we need to lift each other up. If we can lift each other up, we can then turn around and lift up our teams. The teams can turn around and lift up communities. And that is where the, that we've identified. It's the communities that need to be transformed. Yes, we are in the experience economy. We're exiting it for the transformation economy. Joe Pine writes this, his new book that just came out. He makes this argument and I'm 100% on board that. So I think it comes from elevating yourself by getting out of your four walls, talking to other owners, challenging each other, lifting each other up. We take that home, we share it with our team. We create more owners by in the sense of having fewer employees. Sure, right. And creating opportunity, spreading out the profit, teaching people how to be happier, healthier, wealthier.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That that comes from having assets. You need to teach people how to do that. That is ownership.

[B]

Correct. And the way we explain it to our team is profits is like oxygen to a human being. You need it, you have to have it. And we need to be great stewards of the business. And, and we teach them, we show them, we show them how. We're very transparent about it because they're the ones making the day to day, minute by minute judgments and on, on you know, scraping the bowl of the million dollar spatula, as they say it, to portion sizes to, you name it. I mean, and so if you're not willing to teach the business, you're going to have a really hard time, you know, running a profitable business, in my opinion, unless you have a very busy, transient location and it doesn't matter. But that's rarely the case.

[A]

Yeah. Ryan, I could, I could continue to talk to you. Your team needs the space. We have to wrap up the conversation. I could have got another half hour. I've really enjoyed this. Before we say goodbye, just a couple questions I ask all my guests. What's one thing about your business of value process, the system that makes you truly unstoppable?

[B]

We understand at its core there's nothing more important than us earning and maintaining trust.

[A]

The mission statement is to change the world through inspiring, empowering and transforming the industry. How have you personally transformed? If we're going to do this by transforming one owner at a time, give me an example of how you personally transformed.

[B]

How I've transformed. Yeah, I have, I've, through a lot of self work, been able to, I guess, evolve into having a higher level of, of self awareness and which is when you. When you have that, you start to become more in tune with your blind spots and your. Your default setting. You know, none of us were born in. None of us chose who or what we were born into. And a lot of us, I would say probably all of us have faulty programming.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So to speak. That's running in our subconscious. And the more that we're aware of that programming and potential viruses, and you're able to revisit those in a way that's healthy and. And allow you to think a little bit differently than you are, you know, currently, then. Then you're able to evolve and you're able to show up in a very different way. And how we show up is more important than anything else we can do.

[A]

So this is. I think we can probably paraphrase what you've already shared with us at this last question. We've got the news you'd be leaving this world tomorrow. All the memories of you, your work in your restaurants, will be lost with your departure, with the exception of three pieces of wisdom that you could leave behind for the good of humanity and your legacy. What are those three pieces of wisdom? Wisdom.

[B]

Gosh,

[A]

Trust this.

[B]

Well, it's more important to get it right than to be right.

[A]

1.

[B]

If it were easy, everyone would be doing it too. And there lies the opportunity. And the hardest person to lead will be yourself.

[A]

3. This has been a lot of fun. If we enjoyed today's conversation. Well, this is usually when I ask you to refer somebody to me, but I want to point out that you've already referred a bunch of people to me this week. So thank you for referring me to Robbie Kukler and Ryan Pernice and Mike Gallagher.

[B]

I'm gonna be talking to him in shy lobby tonight. Yeah, well, I think Robbie was Chris us who referred you, but I would have referred him anyway.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

Everyone's been incredible. Thank you so much. How can we connect with you if we want to learn more about what your. Your mission is?

[B]

So my. My email address is Ryan N S U K A Y. At this moment in season in life, I'm not very active on social media for a variety of reasons, which I will get into, that I'd love to talk about, but. Yeah, good old email. Yeah.

[A]

This has been so much fun. I cannot do what I do without people like you blocking out an hour and a half of time to get vulnerable, to share your passion, to share perspective, to share knowledge. You are going to be how we change the world. And I can't say thank you. There is no questioning. Yeah, man. You are unstoppable.

[B]

Appreciate you. Yeah.

[A]

There's another episode wrapped up here at Restaurant Unstoppable. Special thanks to our guest today, Ryan Turner. Not just for being a guest, but for being so generous with your network. A lot of almost all of my interviews in Atlanta on this trip were due to Ryan and his generosity, connecting me with folks in his. In his community. And man, what, what a high bar on the individual we got on this trip to Atlanta. Like this, this trip to Atlanta in my forthcoming trip to D.C. is the standard I'm looking for going forward. And it's because of the generosity of people like Ryan Turner with their network. Thank you so much. And if you enjoyed today's chat and you want to dive into, you know, Ryan's story, ask the questions you wish I did. Then be sure to join us for coffee with Eric on first. Ryan Turner will be live at 11am Eastern. So as you're listening to these episodes going forward, ask yourself, what questions would I have asked if I was Eric? Well, now you can ask those questions. You are the average of the people you surround yourself with in that restaurant stoppable network. I'm making it my mission to get all my guests to join us live for conversation. So take your learning to the next level. Head over to restaurant unstoppable.com C. We stands for Coffee with Eric, and we'll get the first coffee with Eric session on us. And thank you in advance for using that link. And if you want to be a part of that and all future conversations, head over to restaurantstoppable. Com live. Join our community, be a part of this mission to inspire, empower, and transform the industry. We've got a lot of cool stuff coming your way. We'll see you there.