← Restaurant Unstoppable with Eric Cacciatore
Restaurant Unstoppable with Eric Cacciatore
1276: Greg Casten, co-owner of Fish & Fire Food Group
02:20:33
Loading summary
Transcript659 lines
- [00:00]
A
What up Unstoppables? Quick favor to ask before we hit play on today's episode and that is please follow and subscribe to this podcast. Nearly 70% of the people that listen to the show or view it do not subscribe or follow. And you owe it to yourself to do just that. Because if you do, when we get an amazing guest on the show that gets a lot of likes, a lot of shares, a lot of views, the algorithm is paying attention and it will push that episode to your feed so you'll get our best content. Not to mention it is absolutely free to you and it is the most impactful thing you can do to support this mission. Mission to inspire, empower and to transform the industry. And I can't do it alone. I need your support. Thank you in advance. Welcome to restaurant unstoppable. For 10 years and over 1, 000 episodes, I've been traveling the country chasing word of mouth leads and having in person only long form discussions with the industry's finest owners and operators. Our mission is to inspire, empower and transform the restaurant industry by bridging the gap between this generation's leaders and the next. Listen to today's guests and so many others and get one step closer to becoming unstoppable. This episode is brought to you by Restaurant Technologies, the leader in automated cooking oil management. Their total oil management solution is an end to end closed loop automated system that delivers, monitors, filters, collects and recycles your cooking oil. Eliminates one of the dirtiest jobs in the kitchen. Restaurant technologies services over 45,000 customers nationwide. Automate your oil and elevate your kitchen by visiting RTI Inc.com or call 888-779-5314 to get started. Restaurant Owners Are you still using ADP Paychecks or indeed, 35,000 plus restaurants have already switched to Workstream, the all in one payroll hiring in HR platform actually built for restaurants. 46 of the top 50 restaurant brands rely on Workstream to hire faster, stay compliant and run payroll in minutes across all their locations. Visit workstream us/unstoppable for three months free payroll. That's workstream us s/unstoppable. This episode is made possible by US Foods. Running a successful restaurant takes more than just great food. With US Foods, you can expect more high quality products, advanced tools and flexible deliveries to grow your business. Their industry leading moxy platform also does more than just place your US Foods order. It uses AI to help you take control, save time and increase profitability. Visit usfoods.com expectmore to learn how to become a US Foods customer one more time. That is usfoods.com expect more with excitement. Allow me to introduce to you today's guest co founder of Fish and Fire Food Group, Greg Casting. My man Gregory. Feeling unstoppable today?
- [03:12]
B
Always. I got up. The day started right.
- [03:15]
A
We're here. I can't wait to dive into it. And I want to say a special thank you to US Foods for making this introduction. They have not let me down yet in my time in D.C. i'm here for the U.S. foods immersion event, and we did that, and they hooked me up with some really great folks. And you're on that list. And I'm sure this is going to be good. Do you have any thoughts about U.S. foods?
- [03:34]
B
U.S. food is a great company. You know, I'm a really loyal guy, and I've been with him for a long, long time. And there are a lot of reasons every day to change vendors for whatever reason. And I mean, I'm talking 40 years. These guys have never given me a reason to be upset or change anytime. They're a very good company, and restaurateurs know and appreciate that.
- [03:58]
A
Yeah. I pursued them as a sponsor because of what I was hearing on the road. And I take who I promote very seriously. And if I have to promote something, I want to believe in it. And the number one thing I hear from everybody that I talk to is that it's not. It's a. It's not a business transaction. It's a partnership.
- [04:16]
B
They don't take themselves too seriously when they don't have to. Right. Yeah. We're selling food and making people happy, and they're a part of that chain, and they're an excellent part of that chain.
- [04:25]
A
And I think it's worth pointing out that you're not that. That your testimonial comes with weight because you are also in the distribution game. So you know the game. And I feel like, because, you know, both sides of the aisle like you, it carries more weight. Is that safe to say?
- [04:42]
B
It is absolutely safe to say. People do not realize how hard it is when they say, you know, farm to plate. There's a lot of steps.
- [04:50]
A
Yeah.
- [04:50]
B
And you have to be good at those steps and efficient at those steps because everybody wants to, you know, pay less money. And that just translates into how you handle the product from the farm. Farm's going to get the market whenever you see an auction or whatever. And farm is just a term. It might be factory. But Nabisco is not the only one that makes a cracker. Right. And. And you have the choice to buy from who you want. And when you get that kind of breadth in products. So a US Food is going to carry all of that. Right. They're going to. They're going to carry Nabisco, they're going to carry this. They're going to. I don't even know the brand names, and they have to be able to coordinate and put all that together.
- [05:36]
A
Just a cold nightmare.
- [05:37]
B
It's crazy. And meat and fish, which is more. What I'm into is a lot of that. But then there's the further step of being able to evaluate it instantaneously, cut it properly, handle it right. Put it in the box, and then get it to the customer. Right.
- [05:58]
A
Keep it safe.
- [05:59]
B
And on every one of those action items I just described, there's an opportunity for disaster. And, you know, when you do it with 99.9% accuracy, which I don't know what US foods accuracy rate is, but it's pretty. Yeah. They don't make a lot of mistakes that I see. It makes it easier for the company to correct a mistake because they don't have that many. Yeah. And in the middleman's world, the best middlemen are the ones that are the best at correcting mistakes, because not only do we, as the middleman, make a mistake, but the chefs, they make a lot. Yeah. They don't like to admit it, right? Oh, no, I didn't do that. But in the end of the day, they still want the execution when they need it. What they need, how they need.
- [06:49]
A
I feel like that was an opening success quote right there, but that was just a testimonial, man. And I'm feeling fired up right now. But we do have to share your success quote or mantra. So what do you have for us to get that motivational inspirational ball rolling?
- [07:01]
B
You know, my inspirational is show up every day, just be there.
- [07:06]
A
That easy and that hard. Right?
- [07:07]
B
It's not hard. It's. The restaurant business is not rocket science. It's care, love, attention to detail. Show up. Yeah. Put your phone down, get out of bed, come to work with pens and paper, ready to work. Come to work knowing that you have to understand that the people you serve are going to have questions. You have to answer them. Know that you have prep that has to be done in just a way. Know that you have so much time to achieve certain things, and you have to do it. You have to excel.
- [07:40]
A
People who know me know that that's my mantra. Just keep showing up.
- [07:43]
B
Just keep Showing up. Be better tomorrow than you were today.
- [07:46]
A
Awesome. Great way to get this thing going. So where does it make sense to start sharing your story? Where do we go back? Because you were you 40 plus years in seafood, in restaurants. Is that correct?
- [07:57]
B
Yeah, yeah, 40 plus. I mean, so I'm. My family is third term, third generation Washingtonian, but my mother moved to Boston when she was 18 and married my father. And I grew up in a small little town outside of South Boston called Nantasket beach or Hull. And for a few summers I worked or helping my football coach on his lobster boat. And so that sort of got me into the lobster business. And at the same time, there was an amusement park that had at the time the largest wooden roller coaster in the world, which ironically, when they closed, they sold here in Largo, Maryland, which just closed. So now I've. I've seen that poor baby, the giant coaster, go through two generations of life and my brother ride it without the seat belt, which is suicidal. I've been on it like once. Scared the crap out of me. But. But anyway, so I worked in the food at that amusement park for the concession stand. And it ended up being a guy named Joe o' Donnell, who went on to be involved in center plate and a big wig in himself and, and had food stands at movie theaters and at, you know, in, in Boston. I forget the name of that market in Quincy. Market. Yeah, there's a name for it. Faneuil Hall Market. Yeah, yeah. And, and, and so forth and, and ski resorts. And so I started working there and I worked some fairs and I was really learning the trade rapidly of how to, you know, set up, start and get a food operation running and then put it away. And if you look around at what you see, you're down here in Washington harbor at the two restaurants. My uncle, my cousin and my family and I all started Tony and Joe's and Nick's Riverside Grill. They are on the water and have a huge amount of seats outside.
- [10:02]
A
It's the first thing you notice. Like when I walked up, I was like, holy cow. What kind of volume volume are they doing at this place?
- [10:06]
B
And they do a lot of volume during some times of the year and not so much during others. And if you look closely, you will see outside there's a wall that can go up and down and all the tables are actually on the other side of that wall. And we literally have to move everything if there's a threat of flood. The river has certain benchmarks up, up water that the Army Corps of Engineers says, hey, we're at X level. Put your walls up. Because if you look over here to the Kennedy center and say goodbye to that for two years, because I think they're closing in April for two years. It's a beautiful building. And it takes a 90 degree turn. The Potomac river does, and that causes the water to back up. So those of us Washingtonians know that K Street used to flood whenever it rained. There used to be a huge parking lot down here. And you do bottlenecks right there.
- [10:58]
A
Yeah.
- [10:58]
B
And then they built this marvel. Washington harbor actually sits on a little platform and surrounds itself on all four sides with these steel walls that are reinforced from underneath with. They flood the parking garage to counterbalance the way to the river and literally keep this thing. Anyway, so my training in setting up amusement park food stands fit really well with what this was. Was Washington harbor is balls to the walls from April 1st until October 31st, and then it's the coldest place in Washington. And so it drops off very dramatically when the weather change.
- [11:35]
A
What do you get like seven months of.
- [11:37]
B
If we're lucky, seven or eight. I mean, the last couple of years have been really challenging because, I mean, I don't know if I buy into, you know, global warming or anything, but the last two years have been really, really cold, but then really, really hot.
- [11:52]
A
Yeah.
- [11:53]
B
April, May and June of both of the last two years were so hot, the patios weren't as full.
- [12:00]
A
Yeah.
- [12:00]
B
As they used to be. And you know, Washington has got its own unique little weather. Right. It snows once every six or seven years and everyone freaks.
- [12:09]
A
Yeah, it's a weird kind of shock. Not quite north, you're not quite south. You're like right mid there.
- [12:14]
B
Well, in mine, sway when it comes to the snow. They're south because nobody can drive in this town when it snows or rain, there's no snow. Yeah. You see the crowd over there is waving because they know. But yeah, so it's a unique. Anyway, my experience growing up in that environment led when my uncle pioneered Tony and Joe's down here with Herb Miller, who was really the visionary that helped build this place.
- [12:43]
A
He.
- [12:45]
B
He and I worked together. I was his general manager, I'm now the partner, and he was the other founder in Fish and fire food group, for those of you who are wondering. But he, he and I teamed up really well because of my experience. He was just a natural restaurateur. Yeah, I was sort of a, you know, whatever it takes kind of guy. Yeah.
- [13:04]
A
You were 19 years old when you
- [13:06]
B
came to D.C. that's correct.
- [13:07]
A
19 years old. 1987 or.
- [13:10]
B
Yeah, 86.
- [13:11]
A
86.
- [13:11]
B
86. And I was actually 20, I think.
- [13:15]
A
Okay.
- [13:15]
B
I graduated college. I went to accounting school, Bentley College up in Boston. I really didn't like it. That gentleman graduated. I graduated at 20 with a double
- [13:24]
A
major two year program.
- [13:26]
B
I graduated high school at 17.
- [13:28]
A
Okay. Boom, boom, boom. I was gonna say. Yeah, yeah, that's young.
- [13:31]
B
And I work for a guy who sold son actually works for me now, who built New England Sports Network. So I got a really inside look at how baseball and TV and how the money was made there. It was really fascinating, actually. I was involved in building the ground cable in Annapolis, Maryland, Longmont, Colorado and Hoboken, New Jersey. They were all independents. Like people don't remember. You used to see HBO free. And because you would go to the hotel and put a head end up, which is the receiver from the satellite, which are those huge dishes that you no longer need. But back in the 70s and the early 80s, they gave distinction. So the hotel would get HBO and get other things. And it was probably a little more related to dirty movies than it was to the hbo. That's why the HBO was free. But that was the biggest craze and it was really fun to watch because during that time, a guy named Sumner Redstone, who was ultimately the chairman of Viacom and Ted Turner and a couple of really big wigs were out there just on their ground stages. And it got me the opportunity to see how you can turn, you know, some little small dream. This guy I work for had. Small dream and turn it into something enormously valuable.
- [14:52]
A
So when you, when you came here in 86, 87, 20, 21 years old, you were working as a general manager.
- [15:01]
B
Not my first job here was an accountant. Okay. I worked at a hotel downtown. Okay. Did not like it. I went in and told the guy, find someone else, I'm not doing this.
- [15:11]
A
So when did you switch?
- [15:12]
B
My uncle fired his manager. Okay. And I said, hey, I, I could probably do that job.
- [15:19]
A
So you had family in D.C. i had my uncle.
- [15:23]
B
My mother moved away when she was 18.
- [15:25]
A
Got it.
- [15:26]
B
But her brother, brothers and, and, and Tony is her older brother. He stayed here and, and her parents moved. My grandfather got sick. The hospitals were in Boston. But Tony stayed here and continued with his life. So he had always been here. And he owned several restaurants and he owned a place called the Dancing Crab, which is now gone, but was built by a guy named Fred Norris all up and down Wisconsin Avenue that had. Which was in its heyday, the drinking age In Maryland was 21 and Virginia was 21. D.C. was 18. So this big huge strip right when you would come over the Maryland line was all these little chin joints.
- [16:09]
A
Yeah.
- [16:09]
B
What today people might refer to as clubs.
- [16:11]
A
Yeah.
- [16:12]
B
But the same sort of atmosphere, the late night crowd with the young people and you'd go. And it was fun, it was crazy fun. And the dancing crowd was Tony's. Actually some ex employees had come back and robbed the place. And Fred Norris said, I quit, I don't want to do it anymore. And my uncle owned the Tenley Town Market down at the Nebraska and Wisconsin Avenue intersection and he bought it. And a couple of funny stories for that we can get into later. But a year and a half later, he fired the manager. He caught him stealing and because I was family, he said, you're the general manager. Which sounds great. But the dancing crowd was 175seats and the general manager was the cook, the host, the bartender. I shocked. I mean the first job you had, we had a Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday night special. All you can eat oysters, clams and shrimp. And one guy had to stand out there and Chuck. And I still can see the scars on my hand from learning how to shuck oysters.
- [17:22]
A
So really your first break into full time restaurant industry was at the time dancing crab.
- [17:27]
B
Correct.
- [17:28]
A
And that was in like the mid-80s?
- [17:30]
B
Yeah, that was 86, 87.
- [17:32]
A
At this point, did you know that this is what you wanted to do or was it just for now?
- [17:37]
B
No, I was a kid.
- [17:39]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [17:40]
B
I mean it doesn't matter what I knew or didn't know. Yeah, I knew this, that I didn't want to work for someone else. I had learned that very quickly working in accounting and that I wanted to be in control of my own destiny.
- [17:51]
A
Freedom.
- [17:52]
B
And. And so I'm an entrepreneur at heart. And you know, my uncle was gracious enough to sort of. Or lucky enough to find me. I say, he would say gracious enough. But to sort of just say, look, you know, don't drive it off the street. Keep between the lines and have fun.
- [18:10]
A
Would you say like freedom is your number one core value? Is that what you're pursuit of? Is that what you're like after? Is that like what drives you? Is that, that, that sense of freedom? Freedom Liberty Agency?
- [18:19]
B
Yeah, I would probably have a hard time working for anyone. I've never done it.
- [18:23]
A
Yeah, I think that's a lot of people in this industry, a lot of what drives people is they want that.
- [18:27]
B
I think that's a free will, right? Yeah. The other wonderful thing about this industry is every day is a new day. But, but, but that also means that every day is a mountain that you can climb and you can get to the top of that mountain and feel great. You can have the best Service ever, serve 3,000 customers, knock it back, look back with your staff, have a beer and say, what a day we had. Great. Right? No one complained. Everything. On the other hand, you can do the same type day and everybody's, you know, angry because something's gone wrong or the steamer broke and you can't do half your menu and you have to explain table after table, but you get at the end of the day to go, well, that sucked.
- [19:09]
A
What can we do again tomorrow?
- [19:11]
B
Right.
- [19:13]
A
So grand said, I just realized that we didn't ever kind of went through where you are today. So I think that might help our listeners. So the portfolio, if we're breaking down what Fish and Fire food group is today, it's Tony and Joe's Seafood place, which was 1987, which opened, you got Nick's Riverside Grill, that opened in the 1990s. You got Ivy City Smokehouse and Tavern. That was 2015. The point DC 2021. And then the stay in to DC 2024. And then you also have Pro Fish, your distribution and yeah. Your seafood distribution business. And that started early, right?
- [19:47]
B
Yes. Pro fish was 89.
- [19:49]
A
89. Okay, got it. This episode is brought to you by Restaurant Technologies, the leader in automated cooking oil management. Unstoppable restaurant owners know which services to keep in house and which services to outsource. And oil management is one of those things you should outsource. Their total Oil management solution is an end to end closed loop automated system that delivers, monitors, filters, collects and recycles your cooking oil, eliminating one of the dirtiest jobs in the kitchen. Create a more efficient food service operation and ensure consistent food quality with a safer, smarter and sustainable cooking oil solution. Restaurant technology services over 45,000 customers nationwide, including countless past guests on the show. Automate your oil and elevate your kitchen by visiting RTI Inc.com or call 888-779-5314 to get started. So that's, that's your portfolio today. Out of those, those concepts that I listed, are they all about the same business model in terms of full service scale?
- [20:57]
B
So there's some other things I do, ancillary auxiliary to that, whatever the word is. Yeah. That are not food related, but those are the food related companies. And Ivy City Smokehouse and Ivy City Tavern are two different businesses. Ivy City Smokehouse is a conglomeration with a gentleman named Ron Goodman who was a really great smoker. He's retired now. And we had done some stuff in the early 90s with modified atmosphere packaging. Trying to get a fresh seafood entree into the supermarket that was packaged with a 30 day shelf life. And that was before people really understood modified atmosphere packaging. And so, you know, it's just not natural to say 30 day. What you got 30 day shelf life. How can the salmon be fresh for 30 days?
- [21:46]
A
Yeah. What is the modified air? What do you.
- [21:48]
B
So you change, you know, the air we breathe is, don't quote me, 80% nitrogen and, and 16% oxygen and 3.8% CO2 and blah blah. You change that mixture, you, you reduce the amount of oxygen, you increase the amount of carbon dioxide and you do.
- [22:06]
A
So, you know, so that things can't survive.
- [22:08]
B
So that you need organisms, pathogens, bacteria doesn't grow.
- [22:13]
A
They need water temperature and, and time and air I think.
- [22:19]
B
And the issue with that was when you broke package, if you, if you left it on the counter in out of temperature with the seal broke, you know, in an hour, it was the same as if you had left it out for three weeks. It goes that quick. So you had to cook it quick Anyway, the, the project didn't work. But Ron into two get that project in. Ron was just this master smoker and we started smoking.
- [22:48]
A
So it's a production company. So you do distribution production in your restaurant.
- [22:52]
B
Correct.
- [22:53]
A
When you said you had other businesses too. Are those worse?
- [22:55]
B
So we have other restaurants. You know, I've had ex waiters will come back or ex guys in the kitchen and say hey, I want to be in this business and I'll partner with them. So I have a company, a grain company, an audio visual company, movie company.
- [23:12]
A
Would say that one more time.
- [23:13]
B
A moving company, a crane company. I got three sticks in the air where if you need something lifted to the 10th floor. Audio visual. An audio visual company. Because I use the same guys to build all my restaurant. And so we do high end audio visual for your house. That's called One Entertainment. Yeah. And, and you know that's a challenging industry. That's a very up and down industry. It's a moving company and a floral and events design company which I would probably add into what we do with the restaurants.
- [23:50]
A
You do. You have no idea how happy you just made me hearing that. Because like that is my, I'm at this point 1300 episodes, 13 years studying successful people it's time to shit or get out the podcast pot. Like, what have I learned, right? And one of the things I've learned is that the most successful people, their success is making other people successful. And you heard Danny Myers, right, Setting the table. He talks about enlightened hospitality. He says, you know, it starts with your, you give hospitality to your staff. But I think it starts with you. You have to take care of yourself, then you take care of your family, then you take care of your partners, then you take care of your staff. And the goal is to make your staff your partner. You elevate yourself, you elevate your partners. And as you elevate, you create more opportunity. And it's. But people get afraid of this word partner. They're afraid to give equity, they're afraid to go into business with other people. Like, would you say that's a common thing that you've seen or am I making that up? Like, why are people so.
- [24:45]
B
No, I actually think towards the restaurant end, they are afraid to go to other people because I think people are nervous that they're effort and their work. And as you spoke earlier, they're all individuals and they want it in their lives. You know, they don't want someone telling them what to do in their lives. So once they go into that partnership, they feel like they're giving up a piece of that. And it is hard.
- [25:09]
A
There is truth to that. You are giving up a piece because it has to be a shared vision.
- [25:12]
B
Look at, you also have to have growth always. And, and you have to be coming up with new ideas. So I was always more comfortable in staying within what I could control. And a perfect example of what I say is like the Outback Steakhouse model, right. That model is you hire managers and you give them X percent of the profits and then as they move up the chain and become a floor manager to an assistant general manager to a general manager to a multi unit manager to a regional manager, you give them more and more. Well, that model works. Yeah, profit share, if you're growing, right. But as soon as it works, the best staff you have looks for greener.
- [26:03]
A
They're going to go find the opportunity somewhere else quickly.
- [26:05]
B
And I think you've seen that. And I'm not picking on. I think Outbacks, a great organization organization, and Obviously they got 4,000 units across the country. They've gone public two or three times. All started by a bunch of local guys in Washington D.C. who had just a very few restaurants here and then went down and. Yeah. And started, you know, I think they have four concepts that were successful.
- [26:26]
A
But anyway, you must know Tony Stafford.
- [26:28]
B
I know Tony Sure.
- [26:29]
A
Forged fish.
- [26:30]
B
Yeah.
- [26:30]
A
Yeah.
- [26:31]
B
Tony was a great operator for. He was great American. Well, no, he was. Yeah.
- [26:34]
A
He's still going forge Vishak. Yeah, yeah. And he came up throughout back. That was the path he.
- [26:40]
B
He took to correct.
- [26:42]
A
Not Outback. He was with Bonefish Grill. Yeah, but.
- [26:44]
B
Which is Outback. Yeah, it is the exact same. And. And, you know, they really blew it with. With Bonefish, I think. I think when Bonefish came out, they had something that was so unique and so different, but it's a testament to how hard the model is. Yeah. And frankly, why Tony's on his own.
- [27:02]
A
Of the reasons people scale so fast that they don't really. They don't check the culture, you know?
- [27:07]
B
Well, and they tried to establish a culture. They did have this culture where at Bonefish, you would not be open for lunch, and the staff would come in in the afternoon, and the chef would cut the fish, and they would assist the chef cutting the fish.
- [27:21]
A
That's a very high skill position.
- [27:23]
B
It's a high skilled position, and that's
- [27:25]
A
where all of your money is. Because if you're not cutting the fish right, you're losing money.
- [27:28]
B
The yields wrong. Right. And. And. And I think what they found is it was hard to find people that could do that and hold that culture and hold the interest. And then they changed to more of a bar. They were very smart in the bar. They're very smart guys. They know what they're doing. But they. At some point, they changed ownership. You know, they went public or something, and they changed their model and they got away from all fresh all the time. And in fish, that makes a difference. People will tell you all the. I don't care who you are. I can tell you fresh from Frozen. Yeah, you can tell me fresh from. You just don't know. You can tell.
- [28:06]
A
We got you on the other side of the camera right now, and he's. He's telling me all these little details with video, and I'm like, can people really tell the difference between this and that? And he's like. He's like, I can. I'm like, okay, I trust you. Let's. Let's roll with what you say.
- [28:17]
B
It makes all the difference. Yeah.
- [28:20]
A
So back to your story. Now that we kind of understand where you are today, and I'm so happy that we unpackaged those few extra details of investing in people that have come back to you. That's awesome. When did things start to Shift for you where you're like, okay, maybe I want to start my own business. Maybe I want to be. I want to be. Relative to food and beverage was proficient,
- [28:39]
B
like before I went to college.
- [28:41]
A
Okay, so it was when you were doing the events. That's when you.
- [28:44]
B
Yeah. I mean, so I mentioned that I worked for this guy that did all of these concessionaires. Everywhere I would go around in New England, the fairs were a big thing. And, you know, the fair would get the horse racing for 15 days. So it would open for 15 days. He'd go in and sell the beer. You know, he'd send me in, and I'd have, you know, 20 food stands to open up. You know, he'd send me in with a team. I don't mean to invite that. I went alone and, you know, shout out to Mike Sharon, who was a teacher of mine. Right. He always used to. He was a mentor very early on and a very hard worker and just always, you know, 16 hour days were nothing. Right. To just get up and keep going. Right. We got to get that stand. We got to get the gross up. Got to do it right. All these lessons get embedded in you. I kind of forgot the answer. The question that I was.
- [29:40]
A
When you started living intentionally really, is what I'm trying to get after. To be your own boss.
- [29:44]
B
Right then. I mean, right there in high school. I did not. I do. You know, I don't take well, the orders.
- [29:49]
A
Yeah. I love talking about mentors. You mentioned this. This gentleman was your mentor. He taught you about how to work hard. What were the biggest things he taught you?
- [29:58]
B
Show up.
- [29:58]
A
Yeah.
- [29:59]
B
And pay attention and know what your role is and execute it. Yeah. And he would, you know, at the end of the day. Excuse me. We would sit in the office, three or four of us, and go, what went Right? What went wrong?
- [30:15]
A
Yeah.
- [30:15]
B
And I've carried that with me.
- [30:16]
A
Debrief is huge.
- [30:18]
B
And. And debrief at the minutest level. I mean, the. The busboy to the dishwasher, you know, to the. To the guy taking the trash out every single. Right. What happened? Where were you?
- [30:31]
A
Right. You know, we put so much emphasis on the brief, like the pre shift or premiere, like, discussion. But what. What about the debrief?
- [30:38]
B
You know, I think the debrief is critical, and I think the interaction and respect that. That the Top Chef needs to have for the guy who's taking the trash out is such a critical thing. I, you know, I am not a big fan of these reality TV shows because they're only in the kitchen for a week. Right. And they're, you know, making a bar over for a week. Yeah. That's great. I've been here 40 years.
- [31:03]
A
I'm not a fan of most media that surrounds the restaurant industry, including social media, for that matter.
- [31:09]
B
Terrible.
- [31:10]
A
Because it's not a real representation. And, you know, it's just like. I don't know. I don't know. We need to go down that rabble.
- [31:17]
B
We can go down that route because I want to at least, at least like every, almost every food critic out there has never run a business for a payroll, and they don't. They think they're building their reputation to become a great writer, somebody known that you can rely on, but they just pay no attention to what they're doing on the backside in the way that they write and, or some of them. Look, I don't mean to. Some people out there are great and fair and fun.
- [31:50]
A
Yeah.
- [31:50]
B
You can't make blanketed statements, have something nice to say. Don't write about it. Move on. Right. Just write a good, happy. It is a tough enough job.
- [31:59]
A
Right.
- [32:00]
B
And to your point, with social media now, it's.
- [32:02]
A
One of the most transactional industries that exists is media.
- [32:05]
B
And everybody wants to game it for, at least in this scenario. 600 seats, big place. He's making a lot of money. And, you know, I, I, I saw Fly. I'm me and you're sitting outside. Yeah. There's only so much I can do.
- [32:21]
A
It's ridiculous. I really engineered this show to be the antithesis of what I don't like in the world of media. Everything's Word them off. Everything's about lifting people up. It's. And I, you know, it's, it's. Anyway, I don't.
- [32:32]
B
And a lot of it's fake. I mean, you get there and you realize there's no pot of gold here.
- [32:36]
A
How many Instagram followers do you have?
- [32:39]
B
I don't have an Instagram.
- [32:40]
A
Exactly. I'm not talking to you because of how many Instagram followers.
- [32:44]
B
I have a Facebook account because. Yeah, the guy who worked for me made it 20 years ago, and I, I look at it every once in a while. I, I am not.
- [32:51]
A
It puts the emphasis on the wrong things. You know, it's about like, we, we're. We are more than our, our social vanity, you know, like those numbers. Yeah. I want to get back to your story, though. So at what point did you start. Start. Because you came to D.C. again. 19 years old. 20. Whatever. I was 21. You became a GM at the dancing crab. And you kind of hit the ground running. And you were the cook, you were the general manager, everything.
- [33:15]
B
And then my. My uncle, Herb Miller, approached my uncle to open a dancing crab ear. And then it was deterrent. That was in 1987, so I was starting to do both. Nick, Tony's son, was just finishing college, and he went to run the dancing crab. And I came down here to run this or to help, actually. Joe, of Tony's partner was going to be the general manager, but he was really not. I was operationally running it, and I had a great team. We actually hired a chef that we fired four days before we opened, and that's when the gentleman, Ron Goodman, came in. He had been working for Albert Roux over in England, and then a guy named Billy McNamee, who ran the point up in Lake Saranac in New York. They were, like, these two chefs who had worked together at Leondor, which was a fine dining restaurant in Washington. Most people don't even remember.
- [34:11]
A
Okay.
- [34:12]
B
I think it was on F Street down towards the White House. And they came in here and just in four days, taught me what you know. And Billy McNamee was a son of a gun, you know, rest his soul. He was. But he. And he was a very good person. But, man, he ran a kitchen that the people that he trained in six months were still here in 10 years and still doing the things that he trained him on.
- [34:41]
A
What did he train them to do? Like, how did he train differently?
- [34:44]
B
You know, if you. If you were prepping the potatoes and cut them wrong, I mean, he'd towel whip you and scream at you in front of everybody. Not my favorite style. But then come up and give you a little love in a moment, off in the corner. Take time when everybody was doing something else to show you how to do it right and do it faster. And do you work this muscle?
- [35:03]
A
I think you can use shock and awe to make a point.
- [35:05]
B
And.
- [35:06]
A
But as you. Yeah, you know, I mean, it's weird because we're kind of soft today. I think that, like, there's something to be said there. We're social creatures in our behavior. Everything about our behavior is intentional. For in terms of when you do things that are socially not normal, like, you get corrected, and that's. That social norm becomes your culture. Right. So it's baked into us to kind of, like, you know, correct. When people are being socially. I don't say awkward, but, like, not following social norms because it's. That. That social code is how we coexist. So over Time, like, that's why we. We kind of treat each other like this. I think there's something to be said about making an example of somebody doing something and using shock and awe, so you don't make that mistake twice. You don't want to be in. But I think the key thing is on the back side of that, there was love. There was. Let me help, and let me lift you up. Let me show you how to do it. You know, part of the team. You're not throwing pans and hurting somebody and, like, being a dick all the time, then that's what I'm hearing. That's different about him is that he would catch the awkward or poor behavior. He would. He would correct the process, and he would lift you up and show you
- [36:16]
B
how to do it. Right. I'll give you a great example. So six, eight weeks in, I've worked every day, 20 hours a day, whatever. The Redskins are playing an RFK. I got a ticket. I go over the game. I get a call about halftime. The kitchen. The chef has shut the kitchen down. He won't. It's packed outside. Everything's packed. I'm like, oh, this is great. I'm getting a day off. It looks like it's working. You know, he shut it down. I think the waiter asked him to do something he didn't want to do, and he's like, that's it. And he turned every piece of equipment in the kitchen off to make his point. Anyway, I had to come back from the game, but it all worked out in the end. And certainly the waiter never did that again. But. But.
- [37:02]
A
So we're talking about Billy and how he. He really set the standard on how this place runs.
- [37:07]
B
He certainly did for the first. Look, we're 45 years old and really was only here for about a year, a year and a half, and then he went up to that place in New York, and I think he has subsequently had a heart attack and unfortunately passed. And then Ron Goodman, who was the. You know, I call him the mad scientist. Ron is. Got a PhD in horticulture and a PhD in culinary and a PhD and how the impulses in your brains work are not a PhD, but he's done studies and he's published, and his breadth is. His expertise is way more encompassing than just food. Right. And. But he taught him, right? We don't sprinkle the salt in. We measure how many grams we're putting in. Why? Because we want it to taste the same way.
- [37:57]
A
Grams don't lie.
- [37:58]
B
Grams don't lie. And then the, the issue that we have at a place like Tony and Joe's versus a place like Ivy City and Ivy City is rated is Michelin Bib Gourmand and Tony and Joe's is considered a little bit more of a pedestrian, tourist type places. On a Saturday at Tony and Joe's you're going to put out maybe 4,500 meals. I mean if this thing turns five times, it's got 550 seats. Right. You're going to, you're going to get 3,000 meals out of it anyway. That's a lot. Over 12, maybe 10 hours. 300 meals an hour, that's five meals a minute. I mean it's a lot. Yeah. And you can only be. And that's what I would say to be. We can only, we don't want to be better on Tuesday than we are on Friday.
- [38:49]
A
Right.
- [38:49]
B
You have. So you have to design your fare around what your maximum capability can be or 90% of your maximum.
- [38:57]
A
The irony is we're usually better on Friday than we are Tuesday because it's when you're fat, dumb and happy that you are, you know, when things are, it's, it's, it's, there's like this, this peak in our efficiency or like when we're a little bit stressed, that's when we're our best because we're alert, we're on it. But if, if we're relaxed, that's when things slip through the crack.
- [39:16]
B
That's absolutely right. And, and when you're roaring, everybody's doing their job. They know they're doing their job. They feel good about doing their job. And when you're slow, it's easy to get distracted.
- [39:26]
A
Yeah, that's where you get, especially today
- [39:27]
B
with them damn phones.
- [39:28]
A
That's where you'll get that two, that two star review, that one star review. Somebody sat for 10 minutes, nobody walked over to me.
- [39:33]
B
You know, that's what they do. They come in at 5:30 on a Tuesday on purpose. Oh, they should have known. And look, I'm not trying to pick on critics. They know and they do have experience and they have a good use and there's a balance for them to be there. But I don't know, name another job where the newspaper comes in and looks at what you're doing that instant and then writes half a page about it. Right, Right. My uncle passed away in 2024 and I couldn't get the post to write a quarter paragraph about it. But they'll write about some 12 seat bar and how great it is. And it's like, what are we doing here?
- [40:14]
A
It's the. That was, like, the beginning of the end, I think, because really, if you look at the history of restaurants, it was always about community coming together. It was literally born out of public houses, you know, as we know it in America. Colonization. You want to start a town, you need to start a pub. That became the public house. You know, the. The pub was. The public house became the pub. And it was all about just being the center of the town, a place to come to talk politics. Revolution started in pubs and bars, you know, True that. And then from there, it just became more transactional, more about the food than about the community.
- [40:46]
B
Well, and profit. I mean, like Charlie Trotter. I don't know if you ever went to his place in Chicago, but he was, you know, a millionaire in and of himself, and so he could afford to lose money. I mean, he had this gorgeous restaurant. The food was, you know, about as big as that cube of pineapple. I'm like, this. This is the scalloped souffle. Okay. You know, that was delicious, I think. And he would look down at you, cross his fingers, and put his glasses down on his nose. But he loved cooking, and he loved the restaurant, and everything in his place was perfect. And that's what he was about. He put his own money in to make that work. But now it's, how much can you make? Right?
- [41:33]
A
I want to focus on your evolution. So we started talking survival. Your survival. So when did you own your first business?
- [41:44]
B
So when my uncle had Tony and Joe's, he had some other investors. They got in a little bit of an argument. It became clear to me. Well, it didn't. It became clear to me that he might not end up. He may say, I don't want to be a part of it. You do it without me. I was counseling him the opposite direction. But that's when I went out and contacted that guy that I'd worked for in Boston and started bringing lobster and flounder in. And I teamed up with a. A gentleman who's my partner now.
- [42:12]
A
Your old mentor was the guy you're talking about, we brought.
- [42:14]
B
No, my old football coach. I wouldn't call him a mentor, but he was a fun guy.
- [42:19]
A
So you started.
- [42:20]
B
You brought a lot of fun on that boat, among other places.
- [42:22]
A
So you brought his food, his product in. Who else?
- [42:24]
B
I brought his product in. And then this actual friend of my cousins I met, Tim Leiden, became my partner. And at. Over at Profish, and I got a Warehouse in a pickup truck. And I would work here till 10 at night and then go over there till about 3 in the morning and then come back here at 7 or 8 in the morning. I chat for about three years, right?
- [42:45]
A
Yeah.
- [42:45]
B
And then I watched next door go broke. And I said, how the hell they do that? I know how they were downstairs and upstairs, they were 20,000 square feet. I said, give me the small stuff downstairs in the patio. I know I can make it work. And that was 92. So these two. And I mean, Georgetown was a different world and a different culture back then. I mean, their prime was in the 80s and 90s. At the bars outside, there were. There was just no wharf. There was no southwest. I mean, what's that place called where MGM is?
- [43:20]
A
Don't ask me.
- [43:21]
B
I'm National Harbor. There was just. There was no 14th Street. It was Georgetown.
- [43:27]
A
Yeah.
- [43:27]
B
And we were. It was. That was. You'll see a big gap in my life of not doing anything while I was growing pro fish with Tim. And there was no need to have any other. These restaurants were just as fun, and everybody wanted to be here, and they were making enough money, a lot of money for everyone to go. And we, you know, I. My uncle and I would talk about it. You. You want to do other Tony Joe's. You want to get. Why? Why the hell do we want to do that? There is such thing as enough. Yeah. And we sort of felt we had that.
- [44:01]
A
And that's one of the things I want to amplify, because I think right now, the common narrative in the industry is we need to scale this more and more and more. Everybody's out to open a thousand restaurants. It's like, why. What do you. What do you love about this industry? Because whatever it is, it's not going to be that once you get to 20 restaurants, let alone a thousand. Once you get to that point point of like, 20 locations, the game is totally different. You're playing a different game.
- [44:22]
B
If, like, one bad gosh, you're four good, right? Yeah.
- [44:25]
A
I mean, I can say once you get to 10 locations, it's a different game.
- [44:28]
B
You know, I think a lot of that is the money that goes into restaurants. And. And people don't, you know, nine out of 10 fail in the first year or two years.
- [44:38]
A
Right.
- [44:39]
B
And probably 49 out of 50 fail in the first five years. Yeah. It's rare as the one that strikes gold. You know, it's. I guess it's kind of like that. Right. They sell individual wells, and you could have the well, next to that. Well. And you're dry.
- [44:54]
A
Yeah. My vision, my dream with this podcast is to see fewer 100 plus unit operators and more 10 to 20 unit operators local. You know, I think there's something magic there. It's really important. So I want to get more into your mind and why you, why you feel this way. But I think the, the real tipping point for you is in 1988 with Pro Fish, when, and that was just you sourcing commodities from your old boss, your old football coach, literally. And that's how it started. So from there you started Profish, where you're taking the food that you're importing from Boston and you're just now doing that for more restaurants, more. And that's how it all started.
- [45:28]
B
And you had two trucks.
- [45:29]
A
So there wasn't some master scheme here to do vertical integration into like cuz I'm looking, I was like, wow, this is really. Because most people don't, don't think like that.
- [45:36]
B
You first of all did make money for the first five or seven years and it's an inventory heavy business today. Profish has probably $6 million in inventory. Right. So and why is that? Because they're going to put all the snow crab up after the six weeks harvest. So if you don't buy in early and you wait big money buys what they can early and then lets everything get used to up and then they know they got the last four months and they get $3 more a pound on £60 million. They make a lot of money. Yeah, it's a really good investment up there. So you have to be able to, to take positions and hold them. And so it just, even when it made money, it wasn't enough money. It just took. But we just got up every day and said, we're close, we're close, we're clear. If we can do tomorrow and do tomorrow we get one more truck. And you know.
- [46:29]
A
And when did it start to tip for you? They said six years in.
- [46:33]
B
So I mean there were a couple of watershed moments. We three years in, we, we wanted a differentiator and we determined to open Profish on Sunday because nobody else. Right. And so you're making a sales pitch and you would say to someone, we're committed to service. Oh, everyone says that. Really? Are they open Sunday? Will they come Saturday? Sunday. And that really started to build a nice core of business. And then frankly one of my degrees in college was for programming. And so I started at that very early point to have our own system put in place. And that Aligned really, really well with a number of these corporate reports that you wanted. So we began to get recognition and acceptance by some of the larger type
- [47:22]
A
corporations because of your attention to the numbers and the details.
- [47:25]
B
Because of our ability to report on time in the format they wanted and the information.
- [47:31]
A
So your accounting background was coming in.
- [47:33]
B
It was very helpful. That's more what I did at Pro Tim was more about hands on in the fish and, and being in the operations. Right. Getting the trucks out on time and. And I was setting up what I. I like to call. I did the same systems work. Yeah.
- [47:48]
A
So again, looking at the dates, you know, you kind of develop as a restaurant operator in the late 80s. By 88, you're starting your distribution business. Took six years to go that, to get that going. I love the way you scale. The way you scale is the way to do it. Wait for the guys around you to go out of business and then laterally just start to absorb everything around you. You didn't bite off more than you can chew. You knew exactly what to ask for.
- [48:14]
B
I've had some failures. Yeah. I mean I. I went out towards Annapolis and opened or purchased a crab house that was 100 years old called Kaufman's with my general manager from here, a guy named James King, and then did a place in. In Annapolis called the Rockfish with the chef from o' Leary's whole who was Good Morning America's best chef in the country. And the Rockfish, you know, it just never turned. Charlie got a brain cancer and died 15 months into the project. Which really made it much more difficult then. And then James and I, James took over. I just own the property. But James runs and started a thing called Titan Hospitality, which now has 19 restaurants that I'm. I sit on his board and I help him. And I'm a shareholder and he's grown Blackwall Hitch and Smashing Grapes are his brand names. And you know, that's a big whoops. That's a big customer with. With Profish as well. And James, he actually. We confer all the time. Well, not all the time, but we confer frequently on systems and what we're doing. We both really thought that way. And he learned that as I learned that side by side building Tony.
- [49:37]
A
And this is the other biggest lesson. One of the biggest lessons I've learned is that you got to talk to other operators.
- [49:41]
B
You have to.
- [49:42]
A
You can't look at the people in your community as competition. They are your competition. But if you choose to go together, if you choose to compete like friendly competition, make each other better. You will rise to the top. You will, you'll be the best.
- [49:55]
B
It's funny, if you just look at the numbers versus the number of seats, no restaurant is truly a competition of someone. There's, you know, there's 700,000 people in Washington. If 5% of them eat out, it's 35,000 people. There's not 35,000 seats. Right. A lot of them are carry out, but there's not 35,000. If you can be better, if you can get that guy not to go to McDonald's. Which is getting easier now that it's $20 to go to McDonald's. Yeah.
- [50:26]
A
And now that we know that the food, like people are starting to care about what they're putting in their body and realizing this is making me sick
- [50:32]
B
and maybe looking that they're putting a 1.2 ounce patty on their burger and you're getting an 8 ounce burger and the price disparity is, is disappearing. It's a little bit easier. But my point being is there's so many people out there. It's really about getting them and building your regulars and building your reputation and then being exciting enough that people want to try. Yeah, that's challenging. That's more challenging. As you get older, you become nuanced. This is what they do, this is how they do it. And to be honest with you, to be avant garde and everything is energy and risk because you can change alienating what you have and what you broke to chase the dream and, and the dream is not. Doesn't turn into the reality that you imagined it should.
- [51:18]
A
Has that happened to you?
- [51:22]
B
Not here. Not yet. I mean, you know, Tony and Joe's in Washington harbor has had a couple of tough years. I think as much weather and competition and maybe the overall, you know, hey, let's try something new. Georgetown's. Georgetown, but the wharfs, you know so much more. There's so many bigger restaurants and there's a big event space and, And Georgetown is, is not what it. Georgetown used to be 25 pubs and you would sort of crawl around and have fun. But now it's more shopping and it's coming back. It's starting to come back in that way. So in this case, yeah, there's, there's. The last couple years have been a little more challenging than before and we've really had to reinvent what we're doing here.
- [52:08]
A
Specifically, I was curious about. You said you chase this dream and realize that dream isn't what you want. And I think that that's what people. Because the dream that we put out into the world is a false reality. Right. We're showing people like, oh, look, I've made it. I've done this stuff. But in reality, like, the reality of that image that people put out into the world isn't necessarily being reflected.
- [52:29]
B
You know, I'm 63 now, almost 63, and I work 80 hours a week. And, you know, I want to because I like it, but I'd like not to if I didn't want to. And sometimes you get so much and you're the guy moving the balls, juggling around that if you go away, they're all going to fall and their eggs, they're going to break.
- [52:53]
A
Yeah.
- [52:54]
B
Or they might not be eggs, but if they sit on the ground. Ground too long, they get harder to juggle. Whatever. I don't know what the. But you lose momentum, you lose momentum, you lose inertia, you know, And a lot of what's happened in the last five or 10 years is. I don't know if it's individual awareness, but people are more focused on their mission in life, which is fair.
- [53:18]
A
I was going to say, is that bad thing?
- [53:20]
B
And. No, it's. Well, it's good and it's bad. It's. It may be bad for an organization trying to get everyone to row in the same direction.
- [53:26]
A
Why do you think that is? People being more aware of what they want in life.
- [53:31]
B
You know, I mean, if you get that deep into it. I think part of it's educational and people are open and seeing more opportunities and more things out there. I think the speed of technology that can get ideas to fruition has made the dream look more easily achievable. Until you get in there. Right. Everybody can be a YouTube star, but that girl's got $20 million, 20 million viewers. Not because she's pretty to look at, because she knew where to put it, how to put it, what to do, when to do it. There was something behind it and. Right. And so. But if you're young and you're looking at. I can do that, you know, a lot of work. It's. It's a lot of work to. A lot of attention to detail. It's a lot of doing stuff you don't necessarily want to do when you're doing it, like editing. I'm sure when this is done, you don't want to hear me for two more hours, but I do outsource, but
- [54:24]
A
I did the first 300 by myself. You know, we're up to. This is going to be 1300 people
- [54:29]
B
have no idea how hard it is to edit podcast. Right. I mean, you know, you two hours, takes you four hours to edit it, I'm sure.
- [54:38]
A
Well, I mean there is technology that helps today. Knowing what technology to use to speed up the process. Using AI to edit is been a godsend.
- [54:46]
B
But that technology doesn't make you a better podcaster.
- [54:49]
A
Yeah, only showing up and getting reps in, right? Yeah, I think you're right. With the information out there today really influencing the people. Like there is more access to information and knowledge than ever before today. And I think part of that is because of things like podcasts. People are sharing knowledge. We are fragmenting the sources of information more than ever before. You don't have to spend thirty, a hundred thousand dollars to go get, get an education. You can hit play and learn from literally anyone you want to learn from in the world on any subject you're passionate about. And people are more conscious of how their action showing up every day can influence their outcome more than ever before. You can literally manifest destiny. Like everyone knows about this like the law, law of attraction. You know, like there, there's some woo woo to that, but there's also a lot of truth to that. And people are. But I think that is exactly, exactly why the approach you're taking is so important. Where you're, you're being the vessel, the, the way to get to where you want to go. What's your dream? You want to start a moving company? Let's go. You want to start an audio video company? Let's go. You love flowers and events, let's go. I'll teach you everything you know and I'll invest in you. And I think that mentality of is not about me, it's about all the people around me and elevating them to my level. And hopefully they surpass me. That's even better. Maybe they'll bring me up with them. Like that's the.
- [56:10]
B
You teach me. Yeah, it's a great day. Oh, I didn't know that.
- [56:15]
A
So like this consciousness is probably the best thing that's happened. We're more conscious and aware. But, but I agree. Yeah, but like where are we going to go with it?
- [56:23]
B
And you know, I have three children. My oldest is 24, my youngest is 18. You know, and aside from the fact that that generation appears to be very frugal, let's leave it at that. I think when you look as I do, having a little bit of age on my side back generate. Right. My parents were raised as working parents. But in that activism works messaging, and they started to pass that on into their kids who are who, you know, and they are the political power pushers. Now, that parent of mine and even me and our kids, and what we've passed on to our kids is maybe it's not just activists activism. It's just being aware and being able to stand up and say, I don't do that because I don't like that and I don't want to do that. And so you look at it and things like how young people are managing contracts when they go to work at Morgan Chase, Right? And I mean, you heard after the pandemic, when the pendulum sort of swung in their favor, they were like, okay, how many hours do I have to come to the office? What do I have to do? They were literally scheduling in their mind what they were going to do and what they wanted to do. When. When I was a young man, you went to Morgan Chase, you were begging them to even pull your resume out to talk to you. And you'd have done anything to work for that company. I don't think. I think that. I think that's a powerful thing for the individual. I think it's a dangerous thing for the individual if they don't recognize that, you know, the pendulum can swing too far.
- [58:11]
A
What's that, the words balance, right?
- [58:13]
B
Yes.
- [58:14]
A
So how can we look to our past and find that balance and intelligently engineer that balance?
- [58:20]
B
And that's an excellent. Right. My son's an engineer, and I'm like, you need to go to grad school. He's like, dad, I'm going to go to grad school, but I need to work and learn and apply to make sure I know. Very smart, right? I'm like, well, who taught you that? Right? I mean, you know, but. But the same thing in the world. If you want to be in the restaurant business, you have to put the time in, right? And you know, oh, I was a waiter for three months. That ain't gonna do it. Yeah, you're not gonna get that, right? You're not gonna get that experience and understanding on what it really means to be yelled at and still have to smile and not cry when somebody's so effing mean to you for no reason whatsoever. Right. You just have to get away from that situation and not take it with you to the next table. That doesn't happen from one experience. That happens over time. And learning how the nicest looking person can end up being the absolute worst nightmare you've ever had.
- [59:19]
A
Right.
- [59:19]
B
And vice Versa, by the way.
- [59:21]
A
Yeah, so you mentioned before, you know, there was a period where it looked like you were slowing down and you weren't doing anything, but in reality, you're behind the scenes building up your businesses.
- [59:32]
B
Yeah, so I'm less in the front lines than I used to be. I used to be the guy taking the trash out.
- [59:37]
A
You got to move yourself out of the front lines if you want to elevate.
- [59:40]
B
And the bigger you get, the more the lawyers get involved and the accountants get involved and, and the business gets involved in the lease. I mean, it's. And those things all take an enormous amount of time, focus and attention. And so, you know, everyone thinks you snap your fingers and it just happens. But you can put. One of the reasons we're here so long is I read every page and I go through every detail and I think about how that's going to affect. And I say, if I'm signing a lease, hey, you're writing this. This might happen in my world. What is the. That mean in your eyes in this paragraph? Right? And then you talk it through and you get the language and you can
- [60:20]
A
have that conversation with Chat, GPT or Gronk today. You can upload a. You know, and it will tell you exactly what you should be worried about in the contract. I think there's a lot of good things that are. I mean, it can be scary too. But like, again, bounce, how do we find that bounce? How can we get ahead of the curve?
- [60:34]
B
Again, I asked my son, do you use these things? And he said, dad, I've. I'm training my Chat GTP to think like me. And, and, and I asked him how he did that and he went through a series of things.
- [60:50]
A
Prompts him.
- [60:51]
B
Yeah, yeah, it's all typing, wording, and, and to your point, I think if you know how to use that tool, it's very powerful. Yeah, I think that, you know, I've got some people that'll work for me and I'll ask them for something and they'll hand me something and I'll go, you didn't respond this.
- [61:07]
A
Yeah, it's useless.
- [61:09]
B
I'm asking for your opinion. Right. What makes you. And you know, Chat gdp, all of that AI is going to be really interesting.
- [61:17]
A
It will be interesting how that pans
- [61:19]
B
out, especially as you say, in other industries, pilots or wherever. Right. Cooks. Right. I mean, when I was doing that modified atmosphere packaging, and this is 1989-90, a guy named Stanislav, I forget the name of his company. It's in Arlington, Virginia, or Alexandria, Virginia, was working on a concept that a 711 would be. You could get a chateaubriand to a, you know, a Dover sole almondine to a fresh piece of salmon ready to cook in the past package and slide it out of the tray and take it home and put it in the oven and push a button and it would figure out how to do it. And in 1990, I'm like, that is a stupid. Who the hell. It's never going to work.
- [62:11]
A
The people are doing that today.
- [62:13]
B
And here it comes.
- [62:14]
A
Yeah.
- [62:14]
B
I mean, and one of the fears I have for the restaurant industry is that the supermarket industry figures it out and starts out fitting space within there for a family to come have dinner that they provide. They're already doing the prepared food, so now they can just make an extension of it.
- [62:36]
A
Well, if you're in the business, if you think food is what we're selling in the restaurant business.
- [62:41]
B
Not anymore.
- [62:42]
A
No. We're selling experiences. And they say we're going to be selling this transformations. So we're going into. We were in. We are coming out of the experience economy. We're going into the transformation. Transformation economy. So that's what they say.
- [62:54]
B
What is transformation?
- [62:56]
A
So transformation idea of. We're in the business of tying a bunch of experiences together over time to get from point A to point B. So it's like a matter of like. So it's. It's becoming a specialist and teaching people the thing that you know, because they want to learn that. Or maybe you're unhealthy and you want to change your eating habits and you want to be surrounded with a bunch of other people that have the same. Same goals as you. So you sign up for a meal plan and then you. You surround yourself with people, you eat with them because they have the same habits and values as you. So it's about community and transformation and getting people, a group of people from point A to point B because we all trying to aspire and be better and elevate, you know, that's the future, supposedly. We'll see how accurate it is.
- [63:37]
B
Then again, I think you want to go out to dinner because you and your wife haven't seen the cup.
- [63:42]
A
I don't think that's going anywhere.
- [63:43]
B
And. And you just want to sit down. That's an experience catch up with. Right.
- [63:47]
A
That's also a transformation because people want
- [63:49]
B
to be fair enough.
- [63:50]
A
People are realizing we need more balance. I want to transform from working 60 hours a week to finding time that fills my cup. And where's the best place to do that at a dinner table with the people I love.
- [64:02]
B
Correct.
- [64:03]
A
That's not going anywhere.
- [64:04]
B
Neutral ground? I don't think so. I actually think the pendulum is starting to swing back towards a little bit more of the traditional let's go out and sit down. I think price has been, you know, this inflation that three years at 10% really did some damage that hasn't psychologically settled. And I don't think the pandemic's effects have fully trickled down now in the youth, more than, you know me, I'm back to what I was before the pandemic.
- [64:33]
A
But yeah, that's transformative time. There was period where people, people need to, young people need FaceTime. They need, they need to learn those social norms and there was a period where computers were raising our young and we were covering our faces up. And that's developmental time. That's really important. It's hard, like it's hard to recover from that lost time.
- [64:52]
B
I think Meta just lost a big lawsuit about that yesterday. Meta and Google, good. I think they both. That'll be interesting to follow. Right? Parallel the cigarettes. Right. Cigarettes are bad.
- [65:06]
A
I mean, how many people can make that same lawsuit, that same claim? A lot.
- [65:11]
B
Oh yeah, you know the Opti grab. I made a fun of it jerk run. The guy puts the thing on the glasses and then everyone goes cross eyed. He has to write everyone $3 checks.
- [65:22]
A
Anyway, I got to bring it back to restaurants. I'm loving the conversation, but I want to bring it back to restaurants. I really want to focus on, you know, so I brought it back to where you, you started to work on getting your food distribution company up and scaled. And then it looks like it was around like 2015-2019-2021-2023. Like you started to really pour fuel on the fire and scale this thing. So what was going on during that like 15 year period from like, I guess it looks like it was from. Or yeah, like 15, 20 year period. Was that core focus on building the distribution.
- [65:58]
B
That was definitely building distribution. And as I told you, that failed sort of wing where I went out right into Anne Arundel County. And how far is that from here? It's the next county. It's Prince George's. Then what were the lessons? Yeah, you know, that's a good question. I mean I would, I would, I would say the biggest lesson is, is do your research and, and be prepared. In, in my first foray, I bought a business from a family that was, you know, 80 years. I think they started in 1936.
- [66:38]
A
Your own family too, wasn't it?
- [66:40]
B
No, this. When I bought this business in Anne Arundel. And, and they just, they really didn't want to sell. What they were looking for was to collect the money and then damage. And they actually went on a campaign and badmouth like starting the day after we bought it. Right. I was a young guy. I just wanted, I wanted to own a restaurant, but I felt it was imperative to own the real estate.
- [67:01]
A
I mean, that's a good lesson. You're not wrong. And that like that's an asset that appreciates.
- [67:05]
B
And ivy City in 2005. So anyway, I went there, there and then in the Rockfish when Charlie got afflicted with that brain. That was just a really bad break. And I, and I realized I lived an hour and a half from this place and the leader was chopped off. Right. And I had a mentor. The guy I was mentioning I worked for in the cable TV industry, Dick Loftus. And he would always say to me, pretend he died. What happens if he dies if Steve dies tomorrow? Partner, chef.
- [67:39]
A
You can't. Bartender cannot be dependent on an individual.
- [67:42]
B
They're on their way in. What's your action plan? What are you going to do to stop that Gap.
- [67:47]
A
Yeah, sorry. Keep going.
- [67:50]
B
No, that, but that, that's a very valuable lesson. Yeah. That I was taught as a 20 year old and thought I learned, but I really didn't learn until I realized. Right. The Rockfish stayed open for 10 years. I don't give up quickly. And then I finally gave it over to James. But you know, after a year, I knew this is going to not work out very well if I can't be here every night. It was a very small restaurant.
- [68:17]
A
Yeah. Anyway, so, so David Scott Peters, one of my earliest guests, was one of the first guests that really floored me. He's a professional speaker in the world of restaurants. Like he knows how, how to speak. And he, he said something that's always stuck with me. So you want to create system dependent operations, not people dependent operations. So you want to put great people into those systems. But the point is, to your point, if, if somebody dies, then this business can't show up. And usually the, the person that, that, that business is dependent on is you. So how do I create systems around what I'm doing every day? How do I put layers between me and the work and slowly remove myself and delegate what is the one thing that I should be doing and only doing? What is that one thing and that's different for everybody and then work yourself out of all of your other responsibilities. So you can do that one thing that you're better at everybody else then the thing you love to do. Right. That's the E myth. The entrepreneurial myth is you're going to open your own place and life is going to be easier. But then you have to wear all
- [69:15]
B
these hats and you can't do the one thing you want to do.
- [69:18]
A
Yeah.
- [69:19]
B
You know, that's a city slicker's quote. I think the, the fact of the matter is he's right that in my case, after realizing that I had made those mistakes and realizing what I had here. Where? Washington Harbor. I said, you know, I'm content, it's okay.
- [69:42]
A
When did this realize. What was the year this realization happened?
- [69:45]
B
2004. Okay, three. And where.
- [69:50]
A
What did you have in your portfolio in 2004? 2003.
- [69:54]
B
God, I can't even remember. There was a bunch of stuff. Kaufman Saver in the Rockfish, Tony and Joe's Knicks, Riverside Grill Pro fish.
- [70:02]
A
You just listed five or six operations.
- [70:04]
B
We had a thing called Ocean Pro Smoke fish that I sold.
- [70:08]
A
Yeah.
- [70:09]
B
To a couple company that's making money at this time.
- [70:12]
A
Safe to say.
- [70:13]
B
Yeah, I mean, you know, some were making, some were losing. But you making enough money to.
- [70:18]
A
Yeah.
- [70:19]
B
Yes.
- [70:20]
A
So.
- [70:20]
B
But I only I didn't own a piece of property so there wasn't that much security.
- [70:28]
A
Restaurant owners, are you still juggling six tools to hire, schedule and pay your team? Workstream replaces all of them with one platform for hiring, scheduling, payroll and compliance pay built specifically for restaurants trusted by 46 of the top 50 restaurant brands including McDonald's, Starbucks, Crumble and more. With or Extreme, 35,000 operators have cut their interview no show rates by 55%, saved 20% on payroll and saved 30,000 a year on software alone. If you're done duct taping your HR stack together, visit WorkStream US Unstoppable and see what an all in one restaurant grade platform actually feels like. That's Work Stream US Unstoppable for three months free payroll. I repeat, that's WorkStream US/Unstoppable for three months of free payroll. This episode is made possible by US Foods. It takes more than great food to run a kitchen these days. With US Foods. More means consistently high quality products, industry leading tools, inflexible deliveries that let you grow your business on your schedule. Whatever your goals, you foods helps you turn them into reality. As a US Foods customer, you'll gain access to their industry leading moxy platform which doesn't just make it easy to place your US Foods order. But it uses AI powered technology to help you take more control of your business and increase profitability. You can also explore the latest issues of Food Fanatics magazine from US Foods. In each issue, you'll find real world success stories, bott bold culinary inspiration and practical profit boosting ideas you can put to work immediately. Visit usfoods.com expect more to learn how to become a US Foods customer again, that's usfoods.com expect more so I guess what I want to get is, you know, you said it was early 2000, 2005, 4.
- [72:28]
B
Is that where you are, right?
- [72:30]
A
You start having this, this is a point of evolution for you, right? Where you're like, I'm happy where I am. Why do I only need more? Why am I, what am I First
- [72:38]
B
was born in 2001, actually on November 11th. Okay, it's a great story. But you know, you realize, right, holy cow, I'm, I'm at work 80 hours a week, right? Let me, let me make sure I do this right. You know, your first obligation is to the next generation, right. Leave things better than you came.
- [72:54]
A
Right.
- [72:55]
B
So I try to treat my kid better. So, sure I did.
- [72:58]
A
Even in like the mid-2000 thousands, you had been in this business for 20 years, correct. You know, how are you better at this point? How are you a different business operator? What are you doing differently than when you were doing in like the early 90s?
- [73:13]
B
Well, from the restaurant standpoint, I don't make as much money. So I don't know.
- [73:17]
A
In this, at this point, at this point, 2004, 2005, you're not making this much money.
- [73:22]
B
No way. Yeah. Oh, at 2005. No, that they're. Yeah, well, yes, still, still very profitable. It's only in the last, you know, the pandemic sort of right before was a little bit what's going on here? And then the pandemic. Actually, the, the 90 days before the pandemic were the best 90 days I'd had in a year and a half
- [73:42]
A
for a lot of people.
- [73:43]
B
And I'm like, oh, this is finally, we're here.
- [73:46]
A
Take us there.
- [73:47]
B
Everybody shut down.
- [73:48]
A
What, what restaurants did you own, kids in 2000, 2019, Tony and Joe's, Knicks,
- [73:54]
B
Riverside Grill, Ivy City, Smokehouse. And I was building the point, which, the point I viewed as exactly what Tony and Joe's is the points over on Buzzard Point, behind Audi Stadium, right next to Greenleaf Point, which is a very historical place in Washington and was expected to have 10,000 homes over the course of six years. And I went in and said, and it's. It's the second best view in Washington. This is the best view. I mean, the wharf's nice, but you're looking at nothing. Nowhere else has a view. This view is unparalleled. And when the weather's nice, even today, it's raining, and you see people are outside just hanging. You can. People watch. You can have so much fun here. It's just a wonderful spot for those seven years.
- [74:45]
A
That's kind of like your. Your niches, the outdoor. Nice view. That's what you're getting on the waterfront.
- [74:50]
B
Deal with it. And, you know, I. I don't think anybody was willing to take the venture over at the Point. And so I did.
- [74:58]
A
And that was delayed because you started that project in 2019, but it didn't come to fruition until 2022.
- [75:04]
B
1. 21. And I started in 18.
- [75:09]
A
Okay.
- [75:09]
B
We started construction in 19. And then the pandemic hit, and. And we were, you know, not quite ready to open. Yeah, Construction, building and everything went haywire. Right. Place cost more to build, and we made some design errors in light of the changes happened because of Pandemic. But. But it's a beautiful, beautiful restaurant. And so that was not the success I'd hoped it would be. Just out of the gate, it has, through hard work, diligence, a great general manager, Matthew Stickney, whose father I grew up with, runs that place for me. And his father is an investor. And. And. And I think that's important, to have a reason to be there and make it better. And Matthew has a great restaurant pedigree as well, but by his being there and paying attention to that everyday detail, he knows everyone's name.
- [76:11]
A
Take me to 2018. At that point, you got pretty much everything going with the exception of the Point. And your latest, the Strand dc. Right.
- [76:21]
B
Right.
- [76:22]
A
Where. Give me a snapshot of your three core businesses is actually, it would have been. You would have had Tony and Joe's. You have Nick's, Riverside Grill.
- [76:32]
B
You have City Tavern, Ivy City Smokehouse, and Pro Fish.
- [76:36]
A
Okay, so what were you said? This is the best year. These are the best years you're having. Right.
- [76:41]
B
Those were the best years. So part of what I tried to do. So Ivy City is in a. Not a great neighborhood. And I. Ivy City Smokehouse was started inside of the Pro Fish building. Excuse me. And I built that. I mean, the business grew to the point where it was intrusive. You can't have a raw. Well, raw. But smoked fish, which is never goes above 70 degrees. You can't have that packaging going on around raw. It's just dangerous for cross contamination. And we were doing it off in the corner and we had tape on the ground and we were, you know, this is small. And it was, it was fledgling. It was doing maybe half a million a year or whatever. But it started to grow up and I realized I would need to do something with it. And there was a building across the street for sale. By this point I had bought the Pro Fish building. And I'm like, I'm going to buy that building. We're going to move that smoked fish in there. And it actually had a second floor. And my concept then was to do smoked fish on the first floor because the smoker is a million dollar piece of equipment. And then to outfit the second floor, which was non existing except this little shack of a room for meat, and use the same smoker. I designed it so that you can come from upstairs. So you literally could have two different companies using the same equipment. You would just have to go through the USDA or FDA protocols and cleaning and kosher and all those. There's a lot of little nuances that in the end I said, well, maybe that wasn't a great idea. And I looked at it and said, you know, I can get a good license here and I got the best. You know, it doesn't have to be a restaurant.
- [78:26]
A
Yeah.
- [78:26]
B
And if you go look at it, the kitchen, the cook line was designed right behind the bar. So I was going to just have a neighborhood joint, which was what the dancing crab was. That's what my roots are. It's what Tony and Joe's built. Yeah. It's what Riverside Grill is. We're just neighborhood joints. I'm trying to impress, but I'm really trying to just be consistent and know your name. Right. I grew up in Boston. I love that show. Cheers again.
- [78:50]
A
That simple and that art. Because you can show up and take the energy to know everybody's name. But how are you gonna get the next wave of people that come in your place to care about the names, to treat it like they own it. Right.
- [79:03]
B
And then when you add to that twist, the tourists and the, and those that are, you know, the great wealth divide in America has created some real assholes. Yeah. Pardon my French. And they, they have a tendency to not realize that that guy making 35, $40,000 a year with two kids at home is trying his hardest. Right. But you know, his kids failing math and he doesn't have the money for A teacher and he was up till two in the morning trying to understand it himself. So his kid can be better than him, right? Doesn't need to be told, hey, you stupid, get out of my way. You're right, the guy might be correct. But that common courtesy, that common, it just, it's very hard to get through and beyond that in high volume places.
- [79:55]
A
Most people don't know this, but the root of hospitality, hospice or hospice or whatever the Latin form of that is, isn't just being a host. The word together means hosting guest. And it's a two way street. And there's a, there's a balance that's supposed to be there. Like with generosity comes gratitude.
- [80:14]
B
Oh, interesting. Like you can't have that balance is broken. No, yeah.
- [80:18]
A
And I think that, but that's, I think our, our. I think the industry has to take that one on the chin and say we created this situation.
- [80:24]
B
I think the pandemic had a lot to do with it, I think.
- [80:27]
A
Yeah, but you look at like the customer is always right. Right. And like, oh like you look at corporations and what they did and they're like, well this is a marketing expense. If they don't like it, just give it to them for free. Because what's more important is that they come back and that became the consumer acclimated to that because behavior, they expect it. Exactly. We created the situation and I think that we've, in this world of generosity, we had to start giving, giving, giving out, giving each other. We've given, we've given ourselves into a corner where now we're, we're this piece of meat with, or this bone with no meat on it. There's nothing left to give. We have cut the meat off. We, we have nothing left to give. And there needs to be some level of reciprocity happening here. Like where is the gratitude?
- [81:09]
B
It ain't coming, unfortunately.
- [81:10]
A
Well, I think, but I think, I hope it does come. And I think we have to start communicating, saying like, listen, like we, like this is a, this is a give and take.
- [81:20]
B
One of the things I'm proud of is that probably more than most restaurateurs, I back my staff because if, if somebody wants to complain about staff, it's a two sided story. And you know, obviously I'm going to appease the customer to get them out the door and get them to try to come back and whatnot. But I'm not just going to take what they say as gospel. They're not always right, they're not always presenting the facts. I mean I've got extensive camera systems in my place now that I've trained my managers how to use on their phone. They all have on their phone. So if somebody says to me, your. Waiter didn't serve water and we asked for it twice, I can look. Yeah, my staff can look. And they're like, wait, yes, he did. Yeah, he brought it out and you went like that to him. Right. And. And stuff like that actually happens. Yeah.
- [82:19]
A
I mean, maybe now there's AI overlay that can back it up, which is really cool too. That's a perfect example of a system dependent operation. Operation. Not a people dependent operation. Right. Now you have the systems that you can depend on to back up the reality. Right.
- [82:32]
B
Perfect example. And you wish it was just unnecessary.
- [82:34]
A
Yeah, it's, it's.
- [82:35]
B
Why do you need it?
- [82:37]
A
Hopefully those things create a little bit of balance.
- [82:39]
B
Right.
- [82:40]
A
But back to 2018, give me a snapshot. This is when you're building out the smoke city. Sorry, Ivy City Smokehouse is up and going. It's evolved. You built out the stuff smoker. That, that two tier thing that you were describing before. Upstairs, downstairs. Can you give me a snapshot of where Tony and Joe's Seafood Place was in terms of like revenue and profit at its peak?
- [83:02]
B
You know, Tony and Joe's best year was 10 million bucks and you know, 15 to 18% probably in its. In its best day.
- [83:12]
A
What about Nick's Rivers and Grill next Riverside?
- [83:15]
B
About half of that.
- [83:16]
A
Okay, so now you're at 15 and
- [83:17]
B
that's at its best. It began there was a flood in 2014. We rebuilt them after that. They never quite got back to their prominence. And then since 2024, the weather, you know, 22 was the next. 22 was like 7, 8. And last year was 5, 3.
- [83:44]
A
That's still not horrible.
- [83:46]
B
I mean, horrible to me, it's a million dollars a year in rent you can't live on.
- [83:50]
A
Well, you're still doing that 7, 8% profit. If you're cutting your, if you're cutting
- [83:54]
B
your revenue, it's not profitable below six.
- [83:56]
A
Okay.
- [83:57]
B
I mean, the expenses, the common area maintenance here and, and the real estate taxes are $33 a foot, so taxes are going up 11,000.
- [84:05]
A
You don't own this property, do you?
- [84:07]
B
It's one of the things I hate. This property is changed hands 14 times, and each time there's been a new tax assessment where the new tax is higher.
- [84:16]
A
Yeah.
- [84:16]
B
And so the guy who sold it took his 10 million and ran to New York or Beverly Hills or Houston, Texas, and Sold it to a guy who took his money and we pay, we pay more money because it's all pass through.
- [84:29]
A
And the best part is it's the restaurants in the real estate, in the property that make the property that valuable. The restaurant industry is not the beneficiary of the work. And I think that's one of our biggest issues or challenges is we don't own the dirt.
- [84:43]
B
And, and landlords have a funny way of looking at things. And, and, and, and how do we change that? I think it's changing maybe not a trophy property like this one.
- [84:57]
A
This is a beautiful location.
- [84:58]
B
This is a beautiful location. And, and I mean no disrespect the guy. Look, I get it. You're in the real estate business. I think that real estate business is really a tough one for cities and communities because the drive is to make money. And they make so much money. You know, it's kind of like gold striking with, with oil, right? You have to put 20 wells in and 19 of them don't return a dime. But that 20th one pays for all 19 and then some. And I think they're all always looking for that. And the dust in the background is what people get laid up with. And that's where opportunities for restaurateurs come, right. In D.C. now there's been this influx of new restaurants. I mean, on the whole, we've had a lot go gone. We're losing restaurants left and right.
- [85:47]
A
But there was also a point, way too many restaurants.
- [85:49]
B
There is too many. I think there are probably too many now.
- [85:52]
A
Since 2007, all retail space was starting to convert to restaurant space because retail was dead.
- [85:57]
B
Well, and restaurants or real estate owners think the restaurant can be an aid in populating an office building upstairs. You know, there was a time when Clyde's, which is a big brand name here, the word was if you had a Clyde's in your building, you got $2 a foot more for all the rest of the space. And so the people would try to lure them with these. I mean, it was. You go out in Rockville, they have this building in this complex that they gave them. They're like, here, we'll build the shell. You do the restaurant part. You own it. Yeah, we just want you here. So all these houses, you're the driver and this office know that at least in their neighborhood, they're getting a premier brand name. Kudos to Clouds.
- [86:40]
A
Yeah, Miss, Miss or sorry, Mixed Use space is doing this right now. And like they're, they're realizing that they have to, to go Find who that Clyde is in every community and then work partner with that leading restaurateur because they can get that leading restaurateurs brain brand in that space. To your point, it makes it $2 per square foot. More valuable.
- [87:00]
B
More valuable. And the trick is to find that guy who can do it with consistency over a long period of time.
- [87:07]
A
Right.
- [87:08]
B
But very hard to find for the real estate people.
- [87:11]
A
Why not? Why do we need the real estate people to do that?
- [87:14]
B
I agree with you. I won't do anything else at this point in my career. And I think without owning the real
- [87:20]
A
estate, being aware of the real estate people and what their game is and realizing that their plan hinges on you, there's leverage there.
- [87:27]
B
Absolutely right.
- [87:28]
A
And I think, I don't think the restaurant industry for the most of his existence has known its leverage, its influences
- [87:37]
B
or had the balls to take advantage of.
- [87:39]
A
Yeah.
- [87:40]
B
I think.
- [87:40]
A
Or the reason.
- [87:41]
B
I think some have. Or the resources. Right. Well. Or the smarts. Right. On who and how to partner.
- [87:47]
A
Right.
- [87:47]
B
And what they bring to the table.
- [87:49]
A
I think this is the key partner. Back to the. So in all my research, it's like we need to go back to transformative relationships, not transactional relationships where you're a specialist. I'm a specialist. And we're all links in the chain. Just like the dishwasher is a link in the chain to the executive chef. We all, you know, we all are a part of this. Right. So how do we make it so that everyone at this table is winning?
- [88:17]
B
Well, I don't know if you go back to the. To the real estate people. Right. So the, the way somebody could buy a building like this for 300 million is they have quote, unquote, the net worth and they're able to get a rate and a relationship with a bank. Well, maybe if the restaurants were able to get that same rate or a better rate from that bank and guaranteed and built on it, they would be able to make that move.
- [88:40]
A
How do we do that?
- [88:41]
B
That barrier? You know, I think at some point it's federal involvement. I also think it's, you know, I think. Shudder to say this, but, you know, banks don't bleed and they make a lot of money. Money. Why are people that work for a bank in New York getting a five million dollar a year bonus? What do you do that is worth $5 million a year? I don't know. It's pretty hard. It sounds great. I want to be it. But not if you're paying. Right. I added up collectively on my loans the other Day. And the interest was a million three for the year. And the bank that I happen to work with paid 3 exact executives bonuses of 400k each. And it was in the paper, and I'm looking at it going, okay, so essentially I worked for those guys. What they do for me. Oh, no, it's part of a bigger blah, blah, blah.
- [89:34]
A
Well, that's the idea of they're the money, they're making the investments. And that's. The banks are in the game of is investing, right?
- [89:41]
B
Well, yes, but they have the Fed where they. They borrow money at that. What they are, is in the business of evaluating risk and then managing their middle.
- [89:53]
A
But isn't that investing again, maybe.
- [89:56]
B
I don't know.
- [89:57]
A
I think that's what a restaurateur does when they have this amazing executive chef that is super talented and is leading a team, has the respect of the general manager, their buddies, they're going to go do their own thing. They're going to go to a bank. I got money. I can make a. I can make an investment. I'm good at risk assessment. I've watched them over the past five to ten years work together. I know they're gonna fucking knock it out of the park. I could give them some money and make some interest, and it's win, win. And to give them the opportunity to buy me out in 10 years and I still win.
- [90:29]
B
Even the best chefs don't. Right. You said it best build the system, not on people. So I think more concept. Kava Grill. Right. There's a smart concept. Yeah. Or. Or what's the other one? Chipotle. I mean, whether you like one thing.
- [90:47]
A
Yeah.
- [90:48]
B
Fresh. Very well. You can see your ingredients. Put it out to do right there. Oh, that's a great.
- [90:53]
A
Right.
- [90:54]
B
Concept. That makes sense. Right. You take five, Fabio at Fiola and. And the other one he has in the wharf, and one went broke and the other one went through the roof. Right. I mean, you know, there's risk. There's risk, there's scalability, there's integrity. Right. There's stick to it, Ice. There's a lot to it. And I think putting all that together. Right. Investors are fickle. Yeah. They'll pay attention on for about 10 minutes and then some over there is easier. It looks more shiny.
- [91:26]
A
Right. I think there are some concepts that. That build systems around producing food and restaurant experiences. Right. And they can scale those. Those concepts because they've built the systems to scale those concepts. Then I think there are people that build systems in developing people. Right. And it's like they're in the business of not selling food but creating opportunity for others.
- [91:47]
B
I think that socially restaurants are an important part of the fabric that makes up community and second largest industry in the world. Government is in the feeding. They feed schools, they feed seniors, they feed disabled, they feed prisoners. And with technology today, instead of going out and. Right. DC Central Kitchen is a wonderful organization and it does $50 million a year feeding the schools. But that 50 million spread over 80 restaurants in DC is probably the difference between 50 of those restaurants surviving or not.
- [92:31]
A
Aren't those government contracts?
- [92:33]
B
They can be government contracts, but the software. Right. You could get people interested in participating. So if you said to me, Tony and Joe's, I need 800 chicken dinners at 9:00 clock ready to serve, we're going to pick them up.
- [92:50]
A
Well, I guess I don't know the city very well and how that works, but in such a system, like earmark will feed schools and like they'll contract.
- [93:00]
B
They go in the school and put the worker in there and then get food in.
- [93:03]
A
And there's also contract workers for like jails too, or. No, I don't know.
- [93:09]
B
I, I, I, I know they do it different ways in different communities and different jurisdictions.
- [93:17]
A
I think you're on to something wrong.
- [93:18]
B
But at the end of the day it's dollars being spent. Right. And then conversely, the city might invest one million and a half dollars to build a restaurant. Yeah. That fails in six months and they don't want to keep doing that.
- [93:32]
A
This thinking is the thinking that I think we need to have, which is how do we diversify our port portfolio? Right. Like we're, we're in the business of feeding people. How can we do that?
- [93:42]
B
Coming from as many different places as I can. So when one of them gets shut off, I got another one.
- [93:49]
A
Yeah.
- [93:49]
B
And like the bar business is changing now. People don't see that, at least in this jurisdiction it is. Right. Kids are smoking more dope or getting pills. They get in high school and they don't want to pay $20 for a drink. And, and they don't want to go to a bar. And if they want to find a date, they can go online and flick across and hey, let's meet here. And they don't even meet for a drink. They meet at a park and decide if they're going to the hotel across. It's shocking what some of it has turned into, whereas what it used to be in this business. So one of the things we've had to do is learn. Right. You know the kids like going to late night clubs to your, you, you change your restaurant to be a club late at night. You try to attract that to keep the revenue happy hours. I mean Tony and Joe's bar outside in the 90s, 35 grand was not unheard of. Tony, Joe's bar now breaks 10,000. I'm jumping up and down and that doesn't even count the inflation. Yeah. When you think about, you know, a drink today, a drink back then was probably five bucks. Today is probably 12. It's, it's dramatic. Yeah. Now is that because it's less popular? I don't know. On Friday it still looks busy. It still has a lot of fun. I think it's combination of people not spending as much and, and then people, you know, not drinking 12 drinks in a drink, whatever it is, but it is different and that we've had to change to accommodate that and figure it out.
- [95:24]
A
So I mean there's a lot of things I want to talk about. I do want to talk about like what we do to solve these problems. Right. Like we're identifying these challenges. They exist. They're not our imagination. What does the future look like and how do we move forward? Do we lean into where what people are doing? Or like what you're saying is like, is this the right way forward? Is it better that we meet people online and we hook up after seeing that we're both attractive? You know, is it better that we, I don't know, use digital platforms to connect? Or is there a shift happening where maybe we can be here waiting when people wake up and realize that we actually need to be in the same space with each other to be mentally healthy and happy? You know, like, like what's the, what, what's the future like?
- [96:13]
B
How do we make, I think people have, have definitely lost the talent or the know how on how to make new friends? I, to that end, I, you know, I know numerous people who have very successful relationships that were founded in meeting online. Some are married, some have been together for a long time. Some are just clearly very happy happy. So I don't, I don't know that that ever goes away. I, you know, it's, it's really going to be interesting here because the technology and you know, you see all these cartoons or anime and all that stuff, these people can literally live in a fantasy world in their head their whole lives. Yeah. And, and, and I don't know how that's going to change and come down a certain restaurant, you know, the casual neighborhood joint. I think it's always there. And that's what I try to style my restaurants after. And the high, high end, I think it's always there. The people with a lot of money are going to want to, you know, they, they, they, they don't mind paying $400, but they're treated like a king when they do it. The everyday day man maybe can't afford that. Right. But it's that middle guy that I think is going to start. Have to. To think about whether or not there's a merging of experiences, meaning you do more than just eat or there's a different way of approaching where, where it's, you know, you order and people pick up and go get their tip.
- [97:52]
A
I think that's a big part of it too. It's, it's just pivoting to rely less on the human service. But you're still creating space for people to do human things.
- [98:01]
B
And your point about transition is really one is really on target because I do think people want multiple experiences. And that doesn't mean the food is this and the bar is that. That means the food is this and the music is there. Right. As well. And, and maybe there's a video show
- [98:20]
A
in playing darts playing like it's a place to socialize and be and bump up against.
- [98:24]
B
There's just some other reason to be in that space.
- [98:27]
A
Right. That's where there's people, there's hungry people there.
- [98:30]
B
Where there's always people who always eat. Look at me, I'll eat. And the, that's the challenge for restaurant and to do both effectively. Right.
- [98:41]
A
I think another thing you, you use this analogy of the pendulum swinging and I love using that analogy too. And I think there's this one pendulum like this, this, this. The pendulum has swung in this direction of cities over the past millennia.
- [98:56]
B
Totally agree with what you're about to say.
- [98:58]
A
And I don't think if you're alive today, all you know is massive cities in, in our lifetime is when there were more people living in cities than ever in the country. That happened in like 1920s, I think is that for the first time ever there were more people in cities than there were in the countries. And that was out of necessity city because that's where the opportunity was. But there we no longer rely on cities for opportunities. So I think part of it is we just need to spread the out.
- [99:21]
B
Yeah.
- [99:22]
A
And we need to spread out plenty
- [99:23]
B
of room to do it.
- [99:24]
A
Exactly.
- [99:25]
B
It's a beautiful, huge country, gorgeous country.
- [99:27]
A
And the bones are already there. I've driven across this country A lot of times there are empty cities built of brick ready to move into. And if we spread out we'll be a lot happier. The pen that is the pendulum switch. Swinging away from cities to swinging back to rural living and having towns, not cities, not multi million people cities. It's ludicrous. The Oklahoma City is bigger today than the biggest city in 1700. And that's like one of the smaller cities. Yeah, I think. I think so. Look it up. Like.
- [99:57]
B
Like I was just there actually.
- [99:59]
A
Like I can pretty cool Google it.
- [100:00]
B
Like it's great museum the you can talk bombing was but the Murray building was really really well done museum. It's also got the Wichita Wildlife Reserve which is the only natural bison herd in America left. So I went out there. It was fun.
- [100:25]
A
I'm looking this up. So how many people live? I might be fact checking.
- [100:28]
B
785,000.
- [100:29]
A
So how many? Two. Right. So in 2023 there was 700 and 2000.
- [100:34]
B
That was close. Same size as Washington D.C. let's pick a year. 1700 Philadelphia or Baltimore were the two biggest ones.
- [100:43]
A
In 1780 what was the largest city in the world?
- [100:50]
B
Oh in the world.
- [100:51]
A
Year 17. Thailand.
- [100:57]
B
Yeah. There you go.
- [100:59]
A
And what was the number? Approximately 700000 people.
- [101:04]
B
Really? Yeah. Wow.
- [101:06]
A
So I'm right.
- [101:06]
B
Yeah, you are.
- [101:07]
A
Isn't that crazy?
- [101:08]
B
In America was even close. Right. I think you know you miss it. Right.
- [101:12]
A
Isn't that crazy? It's crazy to think that Oklahoma City which many people didn't even recognize I mean only would you know city was
- [101:20]
B
in the name of the only big building is where the basketball team plays. Yeah. I'm not kidding.
- [101:26]
A
Yeah. And I think it's we our entire existence as a species have never lived like this.
- [101:32]
B
Never.
- [101:33]
A
And without modern engineering it wouldn't even be possible. And it's not sustainable. It's not emotionally sustainable. Why the fuck are we doing this to ourselves?
- [101:42]
B
And they glamorized New York and anyway I never saw that.
- [101:46]
A
But if you're alive today it's literally all you know. So we don't know any better.
- [101:49]
B
Well and that's where you want to be.
- [101:51]
A
And we also depend on it because it's been engineered for people to be dependent on cities. It's a part of why they work
- [101:59]
B
well and the cities have become a. A cesspool of making it so you don't have to work. I do think this is a big welfare and the. And the handouts and the help. Yeah. That cities present. I'm not saying it's not merited in most situations. But in a lot of those situations, it's merited for a certain period of time, but it tends to just go on in perpetuity.
- [102:25]
A
Here's the other really exciting thing. To your point earlier, the real estate is a big issue, right? Because everybody, like unless you are rich, you can't afford the real estate in D.C. or New York or whatever now. But if you look to the country, there's an opportunity right? Now, knowing what we know, if we intentionally move to the country, we intentionally go in and we go in to create quality, to build back the middle class, to do things cautiously, to create opportunity for others to own the dirt on the dirt. You know, like there is a huge opportunity, but that window is, is, I think, getting small fast.
- [102:59]
B
Well, I think there's a lot of money out there that's buying everything.
- [103:02]
A
Not from this country.
- [103:03]
B
Well, it's not. It is.
- [103:06]
A
It is from this country.
- [103:07]
B
This country too.
- [103:08]
A
Yeah. There's a lot of.
- [103:09]
B
But there are outside money because it's safe, right? America is the greatest country in the world. We don't even realize that, right? We, we just. The fact that we're able to criticize it and tear it apart and say what's wrong with it over and over and over again is part of the reason why it's such a great country. Right. Not to mention I've been to China. I spent. Spent a month there looking for tilapia. It's a great story. I should tell you. I've been to Europe on for.
- [103:38]
A
There's some great things happening in those countries too.
- [103:40]
B
Right. I think you look for octopus down in, in Morocco and, and if you're an American, you better take an armed guard with you if you go way south. Yeah, right. Anyway, there's, you know, South America. Yeah, I've been to Porto Arenas.
- [103:55]
A
It's. It's a wild world we live in.
- [103:58]
B
It's a different world out there and people in America don't realize how great they have it. Yeah, sometimes.
- [104:05]
A
I've really been enjoying today's conversation. We're about an hour and 42 minutes of recording. There's still some things I need to get out of it. So one of the things like I'm very transparent about is my interviews are my research. So I'm here learning from you. What you tell me is what's going to influence me going forward in terms of who I talk to, who I promote. So in terms of where your businesses are today, Tech stacks, partners, like what is, like what is your organizational structure? Can you get into that sort of thing.
- [104:32]
B
Well, I mean, I have a partner or general manager at every individual entity that I have that. And then it works down from there. So the restaurant here is going to have a general manager. It's going to have a. I have a guy, Dave Stein, who's the chef who cut that beautiful food force, who helps me with all the kitchens. But each kitchen will have a chef, and then there'll be two sous chefs that are within the. There. There'll be a head bartender within each one, and then. And then assistant managers, and that team will run the restaurants. At the fish company, there's, you know, my partner, and then there's buyers, and there's a sales manager, and there's accountant, and there's a warehouse manager, and there's a nighttime warehouse manager, and there's a cleaning crew manager, and there's a HACCP individual, and they're all. Or HACCP coordinator. They're all the management team there. And depending on what the issue is, we'll meet in blocks every once a quarter.
- [105:35]
A
Yeah.
- [105:35]
B
We'll meet and talk. And then.
- [105:37]
A
So what advice do you have for setting up those partnerships?
- [105:42]
B
Make sure it's someone you trust.
- [105:43]
A
Yeah.
- [105:44]
B
Make them prove it. I always make them put their own money in.
- [105:47]
A
Okay. That's kind of stuff I'm looking for. I think that is critical. Why is that so important?
- [105:53]
B
Because, you know, money represents. You know, money is not money skin in the game. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's. It's funny, people. Money represents your time and your effort. At the end of the day, you have it, I think, because of your time and your effort. Yeah. Once you get a certain amount of it, you have it because money makes money, and it's easier to make money. But, you know, it's. It's like. It's like when they put you in jail. They put you in jail because you can't make money when you're. You're. You're taking the privilege of that away. Right. You know, people. People downplay how much time and effort goes into a business. That's nothing for you. Yeah. Actually, you want to quantify that. It's a lot. Yeah. And so you have to. I don't care if it's $500. I just want you to. If, if $500 is important in your life, if you make 50,000 a year and $500 is 1% of your life. Okay. You got to get. Give up 1% of your body, you're going to give me the finger, thumb, the big toe. What's it going to be? It's something. Yeah. So at least they're going to think before they.
- [107:07]
A
Yeah.
- [107:08]
B
Walk away or do something.
- [107:10]
A
Yeah. I think the best example of this. I use the example all the time. And I'm paraphrasing from what my conversations. I don't know exactly how they. They set it up, but in Charleston, North South Carolina, they. There's a company, Uptown Hospitality. I pass. Had Keith Benjamin on the show a bunch of times and they have a lot of partners in their businesses, but they all come from within and their businesses are developing future partners. Like that's how they look at it.
- [107:34]
B
Yeah. Entertain you.
- [107:36]
A
What's that?
- [107:37]
B
Let us entertain you. Melman out of Chicago.
- [107:39]
A
Exactly. Same idea.
- [107:40]
B
Yeah.
- [107:41]
A
So.
- [107:41]
B
But very successful.
- [107:42]
A
What I know that they do is it's minimum five years. And I'm paraphrasing, there's probably parts of this that I haven't found fully unpackaged. I think it's a minimum five years of the company. You need. To your point, you need to put money up. So they do. They do an evaluation of that company that they were buying into and they have to buy, I think as little as like 1%. So that's a low bar. Maybe that's $20,000 to get over for somebody who's 25 years old. Right.
- [108:07]
B
But he's vested.
- [108:08]
A
Exactly. And then I think the other thing is all the other partners have to like approve of it. It's not just like they have to
- [108:14]
B
quality the other partners in the other business.
- [108:15]
A
You have to be like a part. They have to like.
- [108:17]
B
That's smart.
- [108:18]
A
Yeah. It's like, are you a part? Like, do you have our culture? Are you one of us? So I think it's. I don't know exactly like I'm paraphrasing broadly, but I think that is a good example of how to set it up.
- [108:28]
B
Validation of the assessment.
- [108:30]
A
And that's how you create wealth. That's. That's the only way in this industry you can create wealth for yourself is by having assets, owning stake in the thing and taking profit. And what's profit you used for paying off debt and investing in assets, doing it again. Yep. And. But you have to start small. And it.
- [108:45]
B
We're giving it to the wife. No, I'm sorry.
- [108:47]
A
Hey, that's an investment.
- [108:49]
B
So have kids. It is.
- [108:51]
A
So this is. Yeah. I think that's huge. Any other advice around that. That world of how to build and create opportunity and partnerships.
- [108:59]
B
Choose wisely. You can get there. You know, if you're the guy that's got the 20,000 and pick your partner. Right? Yeah. Pick the guy that's not going to desert you or the gal that's not going to desert you.
- [109:11]
A
The person you're afraid will leave if you don't give the opportunity to.
- [109:14]
B
Correct.
- [109:15]
A
Because.
- [109:15]
B
Correct. Yeah. I mean the money guy, that's all he does is the guy who's got money or got others. He's analyzing every. He's looking at you and five other people at the same. These are assets for him. Their assets or their investments that you know, their, their plans. That he hopes become their acorn, that he hopes become the oak.
- [109:34]
A
Yeah.
- [109:36]
B
But for you, it's the only seed you have. And you damn well better make sure the soil is of the right whatever nitrogen level or what that's going to make you grow as quick and as fast as you want and can handle.
- [109:50]
A
Yeah. So you share your organizational structures. You got into that. You also talked about how you, you don't just do this in the restaurant industry. It's past people that have come that have worked for you that might want to get into like moving companies or like you mentioned flower audiovisual. Like so you're in different markets, but it's the same model. Essentially.
- [110:07]
B
Business is business.
- [110:08]
A
Yeah.
- [110:09]
B
I mean in the end of the day a financial statements run the same way.
- [110:12]
A
Yeah.
- [110:12]
B
You just got to find out which lever is the cash flow, which is the cash detriment, what your basic overhead costs are.
- [110:19]
A
It's just, let's talk tech stack now, like systems and how you're building your systems. Is there one platform that you've evolved to or recently updated that's really had an impact that you've been impressed with?
- [110:30]
B
I just changed register systems four years ago back to Oracle and it was the second worst decision of my life when the first worst was using them in the first place. The right, the, the fact of the matter is it's hard to be a small fish in a big technology world. And when you have five or six units and you're with somebody that's designed for 500 units, you're not going to get the attention and the detail that you want. So in my case, every system I have is self programmed. I actually have a programmer on staff, all my back of the house. I do all my employee forms, everything's automated. But I'm not paying somebody to do that. I have a HR person and she works within our system. Right. And it says, hey, this guy's food handler License is late. This guy's immigration status needs checking. Right.
- [111:25]
A
And so you built your own software
- [111:26]
B
that does it all.
- [111:27]
A
So I think. Yeah, go ahead.
- [111:29]
B
Same with Profish. The website is completely interactive. We sell about 3 million a year in retail just on the website. And it's all. I can change it on my phone right now and change the price. Are you gonna order salmon? I'll raise it.
- [111:43]
A
No, I think this is the future of the restaurant industry. And I. I worry that by talking about this, I'm not doing any favors for my sponsors, specifically the software sponsors.
- [111:51]
B
But that's what I was talking about with the. With the contracts that are out there, because you can write. I mean, you know, picture a hospital with 1200 rooms that has a cafeteria downstairs, but if each room room could order what they wanted to eat while they were visiting for delivery at certain hours from certain menus, that automatically went out to the restaurants that they brought down. Took Uber out of the system, the restaurant, or you just had somebody that was picking up.
- [112:20]
A
Well, the thing that's been. Technology has allowed a third party to emerge between the consumer and the restaurant. And what has happened over the past 10 years is that. That the consumer has become more loyal to the third party because the third party owns consumer habits and trust. So we go to the third party because we can tap two buttons. Exactly. We can go to the third party because they've vetted and reviewed all the restaurants and ranked it, and you. Oh, coincidentally, you can get a higher ranking if you pay more. And. But the thing that was separating was the software because you needed people to develop the software. And that was a huge lift because it wasn't cheap to develop software. But today you can have a conversation with an AI bot and it can develop your own software. That's true, and that's what's really exciting. And I think that if you understand
- [113:08]
B
how to do it.
- [113:09]
A
So more and more people are understanding that. That this younger generation. Oh, yeah, it's common language, of course. So as the next wave of restaurant tours comes up and they're like, how much does it cost for that piece of software? I'll just have Gronk do it for me.
- [113:23]
B
And they're going to run into. So if you use Open Table as an example, the loyalty points, right. We'll have people call and say, hey, I want to bring 10 people in. And we're like, all right, give us a reservation. They're like, no, no, I want to make it on open table so I get my points. Drives me nuts. Yeah, because you just cost me 10 bucks and I spent five minutes on the phone talking to you.
- [113:45]
A
But here's the thing. Open Table needs the restaurant at the end of the day, so it would. It has.
- [113:50]
B
I understand. Or whichever device.
- [113:52]
A
My point being is if we pull our heads out of our own asses and realize that all these platforms hinge on our involvement, that one collective decision tomorrow can upheave the entire system. You know, like how dependent. Like how fast will consumer behavior change if the restaurant no longer supports the platform.
- [114:13]
B
Platform. It's interesting. I mean, it's not just the platform that attracts people. The restaurant. I think that issue is bigger and more cumbersome and more costly in the back operation. Right. Between the passwords, the credit cards, the fees. You know, if you're doing a credit card management, if your insurance is now involved.
- [114:32]
A
Yeah.
- [114:32]
B
And you're doing something online for them, and you're doing something online for this guy, and everything is you learning their technology.
- [114:40]
A
Right. But I think at the very least, I think at the very least you're going to see more players get into the game because it's going to be more affordable to create competition. Right. But then it goes back.
- [114:51]
B
Depends on what the game is. And it depends on the legislation.
- [114:54]
A
Yeah.
- [114:54]
B
And I think the lawmakers are intent on making laws when they have no idea what they're doing. Yeah. A perfect example is this wage issue with the tip, minimum wage in D.C. and whatnot. Yeah.
- [115:08]
A
You have people that have never worked a day in the restaurant industry.
- [115:10]
B
I have no idea. And you try to explain to them the devastating effects. Increasing 50% of your labor increases by 300%. Yeah. Tell that to Ford. Hey, all the guys who put the tires on the chairs are making 20 an hour. Now you're paying them 60. I mean, tires on the trucks. Now you're paying. Now you're paying them 60. Whoa, we can't do that. You know what? We'll get a machine.
- [115:33]
A
Yeah.
- [115:33]
B
Aren't there two McDonald's now with no employees?
- [115:36]
A
Yeah.
- [115:37]
B
Forget it. Once it happens, it's going to be like.
- [115:41]
A
I think it'll be novel at first, but over time, people are going to realize they're not.
- [115:44]
B
Yeah. Have you seen the jurisdictions? Well, we're going to tax you as if it was an employee. Because just because you don't have the employee, you should still have to pay an unemployment employment. And you should still. If I'm a business, I'm like, screw you. Why should I have to do that? It's a machine. Yeah. I paid the tax when I bought it.
- [116:03]
A
Yeah.
- [116:04]
B
How much tax do you need? Government. It's funny, I watched Ronald Reagan this morning. I was taking a shower and I happened to have like, I don't know what it was on. And he came on with Johnny Carson talking about just that. And he was adamant that the inflation is directly relative to the not balancing the budget. And that every time a new piece of legislation comes in, something should go out or you should demonstrate how you're going to pay for it without busting the budget.
- [116:31]
A
Yeah.
- [116:32]
B
And if our politicians would focus on that instead of trying to tell everyone how to live. Right. America was the land of the free, but now the politicians just get in your grill about everything. And it's not the politicians individually per se, it's the agencies and the power within which they've kept them. Right. And there are numerous issues that can go on around in here and they all have these protocols that if you're not in the loop and at the protocol or at the meeting and you haven't organized enough people to fight them, you're going to lose the battle. That means the individual is going to lose with the government every single time. And that's not what America was founded on. Yeah, it's a really dangerous, I think it's a really dangerous place. And look how much money is in politics.
- [117:22]
A
Whether you swing hard left or you swing hard right, doesn't matter which way you go.
- [117:26]
B
Yeah, I, I, look, I don't care who you marry, what you do right. I, I just want you to balance the budget. Just don't spend. I can't. Yeah. If I spend more money than the restaurant takes in, I close.
- [117:38]
A
But the thing that I think is exciting that we forget the restaurant industry is the second largest industry in the world behind the government. Third is health.
- [117:46]
B
I didn't, I actually didn't forget it. I didn't know that. Is that true?
- [117:49]
A
The third is healthcare.
- [117:50]
B
Is that right?
- [117:51]
A
And that just recently switched. It was the government, then healthcare, then restaurant, but we just overtook healthcare. So I think what we need to realize is that we actually have more influence than we realize we don't have. We're not making a lot of independence in this industry.
- [118:08]
B
Right.
- [118:08]
A
Collectively, all restaurant owners aren't filthy rich, but collectively we have a ton of influence. And collectively we influence a lot of employees. And collectively we influence a lot of communities. Revolution started in hospitality. They're going to continue to move in hospitality because of the level of influence we have. I think we have to be mindful of that. We can make change. We can create space for people to come and, and talk. Get offline. Don't get your politics online. You're going to be in an echo chamber. Hear somebody talk who has a different opinion view. Come to my restaurant. I'll host that.
- [118:42]
B
You know, come watch a sunset down at Tony and Joe's.
- [118:44]
A
That's a transformation economy. I've ever heard of one.
- [118:47]
B
That's a, that's an experience.
- [118:49]
A
Yeah.
- [118:50]
B
And do it with your friends, having a nice cocktail on the, on the river. It's. Those are the things life is supposed to be. And you know, anyway, it's gotten a little crazy and as an older guy, you know, I'm in my 60s, it's hard for me to really even understand the concept. But having young kids, I kind of look at where their life is and where it's going and I realize, you know, how much different my life was than my father's and how much different my son's life is than his father. My me is going to be. And I hope that those opportunities continue to present themselves and that the people are smart enough to team and fight what could be a 1984. Right. I mean camera recognition and, and rules and regular look at all the speed cameras in Washington. You can't walk down the street without somebody saying give me $100.
- [119:47]
A
I'm probably got a couple tickets this week.
- [119:51]
B
Did you do over 25?
- [119:52]
A
Cuz I almost went one way up a wrong way up one way. But my defense it, everyone was going the wrong way. They like did some weird thing to a road around here and I was, I was told to turn around by my GPS and it set me up in one way and I, I probably
- [120:07]
B
changed the sign that morning. Knowing this city, this has been a lot of fun.
- [120:12]
A
I have a couple closing questions. I asked for them I guess and they are again. So one thing that you think restaurant owners need to be discussing, I think to our point, you, you, you, you mentioned earlier that you talk to other restaurant owners, you share information. What is one discussion, one conversation restaurant owners need to start having with each other.
- [120:39]
B
That's an interesting one. We're all in this together is what you want to say. But inherently if the guy next to you is, is your competent. Right. I don't know. I'd have to think of that. You're going to have to edit that one. The one thing I would say to all the restaurants is be kind and you know, look out for your neighbor and be there to help him when he needs it. And the restaurant industry has a tendency to espouse that that's how we do, and that's what we do. But you get so tied up inside your own four walls that it's really only what you do when you have two minutes to poke your head out. It's not what you do every day. And I guess that message is more, you know, for just life than it is for a restaurant. Right.
- [121:34]
A
You know, what's one process or technology that you've recently adopted that's moved the needle either top line or bottom line?
- [121:46]
B
Well, we recently put in a rewards program. We're probably the last restaurant in the city to do that. And that's had an immediate effect.
- [121:54]
A
We doing that with.
- [121:55]
B
We did it ourselves.
- [121:56]
A
Okay.
- [121:57]
B
Well, we do it with. Gift Rocker is the name.
- [122:01]
A
Gifts Rocker.
- [122:02]
B
Yeah, he does all my. So I. At some of my restaurants, I'll do events late at night. And he has a ticketing system that works and then a coupon system that works. So if we mail out a mass coupon or something and he keeps track of it, and then, of course, the state gets involved with unclaimed property and all that baloney. He keeps all that in detail, or his software keeps that in detail and allows us. He can produce a QR code so that when you come in, you have the QR on your phone and we swipe and it'll tell us the day and how much you're trying.
- [122:37]
A
And you said it's an immediate impact. You've noticed.
- [122:40]
B
Yeah.
- [122:41]
A
How much?
- [122:41]
B
Well, people liked it. I, you know, it's only 120 days old. But where I. It's not. It's not more than 1% yet. Yeah, but it's. It's clear it was. It was a mistake not to have it five years ago or 10 years ago when I should have had it.
- [122:58]
A
As much of the loyalty. As much as loyalty programs are a pain in the ass, you can't argue.
- [123:03]
B
Right. And then the other thing that's had the best impact as far as controlling expensing is and whatnot is we sat down as a team and the end of last year, having literally not made money at any of the five restaurants and looked at every line item and said, got to have improvement here. Got to have improvement here. The biggest two being food cost and labor cost. And painful decisions were made. Menu item choices, menu portion sizes, number of people in positions, number of people on the line in the day. And we are effectively putting those in. And I can already see them having. Right, you can't be that good old boy operator anymore. You can't get away with 33% labor. Right. You just can't.
- [123:53]
A
So that's a new process that you've implemented? Inventory of your current processes.
- [123:59]
B
Yes. I mean, it's just an overall evaluation of what we do and how we could do it better and really set and go. Okay. Food labor costs was. Was 34% last year. Needs to be 29. How do we get that done? And as a team, we talked about it. So it's not a new process. It's. It's maybe more goal driven strategy results. Yeah. And so, you know, if you call that a four would be me like, okay, guys, look, this isn't going to work.
- [124:33]
A
Is there like a book that you went to. To give you that process? Like. Like eos, for example, the entrepreneurial operating system.
- [124:39]
B
Like, but I do love good to great.
- [124:41]
A
Yeah.
- [124:41]
B
Which is the Harvard study on. Yeah. What makes an organization better.
- [124:45]
A
Right. Yeah. That was great.
- [124:46]
B
It always killed me about three mining. They give an hour a day for every employee to work on whatever they want.
- [124:53]
A
Yeah.
- [124:53]
B
So long as the company owns it.
- [124:55]
A
Got it.
- [124:55]
B
I'd love to do something like that.
- [124:57]
A
So is there a vendor or an organization you recently. You recently started working with or outsourced to. To move the needle?
- [125:07]
B
Well, there's US Food. Who's your sponsor?
- [125:11]
A
You've been with them for almost four years.
- [125:13]
B
Almost. Well, I was with a company called Meso Lurch that they purchased. Got it. It's really hard to. For me to want to change a vendor. You. You either have to screw up royally or you just can't do the job that we're looking for. Right.
- [125:29]
A
So they've evolved a lot recently. US Foods, are you evolving with them in terms of using their services?
- [125:35]
B
We supply them as well. So I get to see both sides of that equation. They're a really efficient company. We actually fill a contract through Pro Fish for the prison system, ironically. So you wonder where some of this comes from. And we use them for probably 70% of the stock. And we order at 10 in the morning, pick up at 1 in the afternoon, and it'll be a $12,000 order. I mean, to me, that's pretty damn impressive. Yeah. If you don't get a pick until 10 in the morning and by 1 in the afternoon, you know, we pick up at their dock. We can go and they've got the pallets and they load them up. That's. That's pretty impressive.
- [126:16]
A
Yes.
- [126:19]
B
I don't know if that answered.
- [126:20]
A
No. That. Yeah. I mean, that's one of the partners that you outsource to. I mean I noticed a lot of people too today are moving in the direction of fractional executives. Fractional cfo, fractional cmo, fractional coo. Because it's getting those types of people in place because everything's centralized today, cloud based. You can be that person for multiple restaurants, you can be a specialist. I think the future of the industry is in specialists. Whether the form of you owning your own business in a fractional consulting or fractional executive role or being a partner in multiple businesses. And you bring say like I've seen in the past, like you're a mixologist. Right. And you can put together bar programs and you have equity in the restaurants that you partner with, but you have multiple partners. I'm seeing that now with marketing people. I'm seeing that now with CFOs are really good at leveraging tools. Platforms like Restaurant Assistance Pro and Restaurant 365, they just do that and they help strategize and forecast using those tools. Are you seeing that at all?
- [127:15]
B
We already do that. I mean Fish and Fire Food Group is essentially a pass through management company. It doesn't make any money. Its goal is to break even. The accountant is there, the chef is there, the marketing person is there. And it's spread over all of the businesses.
- [127:31]
A
Yeah.
- [127:32]
B
And so I can take that $125,000 salary or whatever it is and say, you know, it's not so bad. It's 12% here and 18 here and three here, whatever your divisional and everybody get, you know, I think it's. I've been doing it for a number of years. I think it's the only way you're going to survive. And I also think the danger is you do too much of that support because it seems like such a minimal cost. But then you look at it in the hole and you're like, whoa, yeah, we're spending too much here. Yeah. And I just went through that.
- [128:08]
A
You need another layer above that to manage that. And that's why we always look like an onion. There's always another layer that we're putting on top to manage the one below it. Hire.
- [128:17]
B
And it also feels like that's moving towards nationalization, if you will, or whatever it is. Chain of exception Education of America.
- [128:24]
A
I think the more people that do that, the more we can fractionalize it, you know, the more like you need
- [128:31]
B
the entrepreneur at the core. And I'm not sure how much he's going to want that done by somebody part time or himself in a way that he believes or trusts.
- [128:44]
A
But what if that part time person is another entrepreneur? A partner that has their own business could work. You know what I'm saying?
- [128:49]
B
Work. Yeah.
- [128:50]
A
Yeah. So we're almost done, we're almost there.
- [128:53]
B
No, take your time.
- [128:54]
A
What's one thing about your business? A value process, a system that's truly uncommon. It makes you unstoppable,
- [129:01]
B
you know, controlling our own programming. Yeah, I really think that's. The cost of, of, of programming today is crazy. And I know everyone thinks AI is just going to take over programming, but you won't get what you want and then having the knowledge base within your system will get you what you want quicker, more correct and, and better.
- [129:26]
A
There are no two restaurants are exactly the same. No. Yeah. So it's going to be interesting to see how that world influences what we do.
- [129:33]
B
And you know, I think people will think AI processing is, is how to take an off the shelf software. Software and tailor it to you. I've got the office health software. I made that so.
- [129:46]
A
But I think more and more people will be able to do that.
- [129:48]
B
I hope so.
- [129:49]
A
Yeah.
- [129:49]
B
Because I do think that it allows you at least for the medium size, you know, the 1 to 20 units, it's going to allow you to be competitive.
- [129:59]
A
Yeah.
- [129:59]
B
In a way. Otherwise you're going to give away points on the package to everyone. Yeah.
- [130:04]
A
The mission statement is to inspire, empower and transform the industry. So how have you personally transformed. How are you a better man today than the man you were when you got started?
- [130:12]
B
Oh, I'm not sure I am. I'm wiser, I'm more patient. The Strand is a restaurant we did in a disadvantaged community with some government grant and some of my own money, a lot more of my own money than I expected. But to give back. And, and what I have learned is, is that I've been fortunate enough that my hard work has translated into money. And so my office is in not the best part of town. I'm there every day, I know all the people, I interact and I'm part of a community and I try to give back and I probably do that a whole lot more today than I did when I was starting out because my focus was on getting to the mountaintop where I could look around and do whatever I want. Now when I got there, I'm like, what I really want to do is be in the trenches. And hey, I've got, you know, some of those businesses I talked about are with returning citizens and others are with people that have worked for me for A long time. And I'm just able to give them the help that I want to be able to give them.
- [131:17]
A
What goes around comes around, I hope. Yeah, that's the thought.
- [131:20]
B
Well, it's my turn to give back. Yeah. My uncle was very generous with me making. Making a. Me a GM out of the gate. I just think that, you know, push it forward.
- [131:28]
A
That's the cool thing about privilege, is what you choose to do with it.
- [131:31]
B
Exactly.
- [131:32]
A
Yep. I think privilege is a dirty word. It doesn't have to be. No, it's what you. It's. If you choose to squander it, that's. That's dirty.
- [131:42]
B
There's a. A great documentary made by one of the Kennedy. I forget what her name is, but she essentially looked at 10 or 15 of her friends who, in order to be in the study and the analysis and what ultimately was a documentary, you had to make like 300 million a year. Your family wealth. It's fascinating. One kid was like the son of a billionaire from Austria and his father said to him, you have to give back. And he's like the world's best concert pianist. And that's a. You hit the nail right on the head. You just have to understand, Right. Just because you have the privilege that you're worth this doesn't mean that you don't have the responsibility to give back to make it better.
- [132:32]
A
Right.
- [132:32]
B
For the next everyday guy, not the other guy that's got 300 million. They're fine. Yeah. Yep.
- [132:37]
A
This is.
- [132:38]
B
Yeah.
- [132:39]
A
We couldn't be more aligned there.
- [132:40]
B
Right.
- [132:41]
A
So if you got the news, this is the last question. If you got the news, you'd be leaving this world tomorrow. All the memories of you, your work and your restaurants will be lost with your departure, with the exception of three pieces of wisdom that you could leave behind for your legacy and for the good of humanity. Or those three pieces of wisdom be
- [132:58]
B
stay loyal. One, your friends are your friends. Stay loyal. Work hard, work focused and hard. You know, have a goal and work hard to achieve it and don't look back. Mistakes happen.
- [133:17]
A
Learn from it.
- [133:18]
B
Move forward. That's it.
- [133:19]
A
This has been a lot of fun. Thank you so much. Like I said, this is a word of mouth, merit based podcast. The people I'm making an example of were referred to me from people that I respect and admire, people I get on the show. Who do you respect and admire in the industry? Somebody you think needs to be made an example of, Somebody making a difference, somebody making an impact and making money while they do it.
- [133:40]
B
You know, there's so many people I know in this industry that I respect and love them all. I, I hate to. To say that.
- [133:48]
A
You can leave a list, man. That makes my job easier.
- [133:51]
B
You know, Gavin Coleman, who runs a Dubliner, is of a friend, but he's just got such a great disposition and a great way that he looks a thing and he's steady as a rock and a keel and I forget his name. Who owns the Point Crab out in Pasadena, who's just as loyal and as friendly and will help you as much as he can. Great guys. You know, Scott Drew runs and you. And I forget the name of his other places. He's got a fast casual concept. He's a great caterer, but he's an inspirational chef and just a nice human being, Just a nice person. That's what I look forward to see out there and, and who they are. My partner, Tim is just steady as a rock. I don't know anyone who goes in at three in the morning, four in the morning and at 60 still loves to do it. But you know, Tim, Tim is, is an interesting kind of cat. There's, you know, and then some of the people that work for me. I mean, you know, Jonathan's worked for me for. He's off and on now. 40 years, 35 years. And Carlos has been in this kitchen since the day it opened at Tony Joe's. I got a lot of respect for that.
- [135:08]
A
This is like a movie credit right now. The credit's the respect.
- [135:11]
B
We can't do it alone, right? Just. You can't do it. But it's true. I mean, there's so many people, right? I mean, you know, I got people like Sean Townsend, who runs the restaurant association, who I would call to and, and get advice on. And I learn more from him every day or every time I call him screaming about something and he's always like, calm down. Right. I mean. But you know, I. Because his perspective is different than mine and different than another restaurateur.
- [135:41]
A
What restaurant is John Townsend?
- [135:44]
B
Sean is the head of the restaurant association.
- [135:46]
A
Got it.
- [135:47]
B
And just. But just a very even keel guy. Before that, he was the, the nightlife deputy mayor. So he went around and did all that. I don't know where. I think he's. I think he's from Carolinas and he's been here for about 30 years. But he's just got such a level approach to how to get things done. And then he, you know, in the end of the day, it's like, it'll never happen. And sure enough his approach and his building of, you know, a consortium of people to attack a problem just demonstrates it can be done. You just got to keep at it. Keep.
- [136:27]
A
I used to beat up a lot in the restaurant associations. I think they kind of lost their way, but I think they're starting to swing back and realize where.
- [136:33]
B
What they got to do, I think in Washington. Well, I think in all of them, the independent doors tend to drive it. The national and the chains, they know what they want, and what they don't want is to be in a politically embarrassing situation. And that's closer to politics than anything else they do. So they stay away. And the independents are so inundated with their daily operation, they're not able to put the time in. Right. And I think restaurant associations are feeling that crunch. Right. And that's why their leadership now and having dedicated leadership, because most restaurateurs really can't run an association. It's a different beast. And it's got its own goals and its own missions, which can be very benevolent to restaurants and often benevolent in a side way. Right. You don't get additional revenue for it, but you don't get the tip mage wage credit thrown in your face. Right. Yeah. Without the wage, without the restaurant association in our fight today. So we are escalating up to that final $18 an hour threshold world. They've been leading the charge to retard that as much and make it as painless as they can. That's. No individual restaurant could achieve that. Right. Yeah.
- [137:57]
A
Greg, thank you so much, my man. I really appreciate you. If we enjoyed today's chat, we want to follow up, maybe follow you online, reach out, come work for you, ask a question. Is there a way to connect any way you want.
- [138:08]
B
You can, greg, @profish.com.
- [138:10]
A
all right, we'll have that email in the show notes, as well as links any of your businesses in the show notes. Right, Businesses. I cannot do what I do without people like you being super generous with your time and knowledge and perspective. There is no questioning, my man. You are unstoppable. Thank you.
- [138:26]
B
You're a good interviewer.
- [138:27]
A
Thank you. Cheers.
- [138:28]
B
And I learned something from that, too. Awesome. Thanks for your time.
- [138:31]
A
Thank you. There's another episode wrapped up here at Restaurant Unstoppable. Special thanks to our guest today. Greg cast and loved today's episode. Love making an example of people who are elevating those around them, creating opportunity. And I think that's what it's all about. That's what we're in the game of creating opportunity for others, and just a beautiful example of that. And we are going from two to one episodes a week. You might have noticed that. And the reason for that is because I'm doubling down on Community on the network and I'm calling on you to reach out to me. Shoot me an email. Eric Estaurant, unstoppable.com Tell me what your biggest pain point is today. What is the one thing that, that you'd be willing to pay money for if I could solve? And my plan for this is to gather this data to find the most common challenges and then to go to people in my network that I would go to to solve that problem or maybe even go to multiple people in my network and to get as many perspectives as possible to solve whatever problem it is that you're having. And you know a lot of what's wrong with the industry. We're using a broken business model. The world is changing around us and we're not evolving as an industry. The other thing I want to do with the network is to really explore what people are doing out there, who's cracked the code and to bring this all to one place, to bring all the leaders of the industry to one place to share knowledge, to elevate each other, and to move the industry forward in the right direction. So if that sounds like something you want to be a part of, if you want me to go to work for you, finding the people that can solve your problems, email me ericstaurunstoppable.com and if you want to join the community, then just head over to restaurantunstoppable.com live and be a part of it today. Every Monday we're live and we're going to start hosting some live events, workshops and roundtables too. So we'd love to have you be a part of it. What are you waiting for? We'll see you over there. Until next time. Peace out.