← Revisionist History
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- [00:00]
J.R. Martinez
Foreign.
- [00:09]
Ryan Seacrest
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:14]
Capital One Bank Guy
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- [01:12]
Malcolm Gladwell
Hello, Hello. Malcolm Glabel here from Revisionist History. Did you know T Mobile for Business has an awards show specifically for their customers? It's happening October 20th in sunny Orlando, Florida, and I'm encouraging you, yes you to enter. This event honors outside the box thinking that changes industries, communities, and even the world. And if that doesn't sound great already, I'll be there as the keynote speaker. If your company did something next level using T Mobile for business, you're eligible. Entries close July 31, so head to t mobile.com enter to learn more and nominate your team. Two days ago, we celebrated Memorial Day to honor and remember the US Military personnel who died in service to the country. It's time to reflect on their courage and sacrifices, which is something we've been doing in this new season of Medal of Honor. The reason we make this show at Pushkin is simple. Courage is contagious. These are stories we think everyone benefits from hearing. And we've got new stories for you coming up in the next few weeks. From Robert Blake, the first black sailor to be awarded the medal, to Daniel Daly, one of only 19 people to have received the Medal of Honor twice, these are stories about people who have distinguished themselves by acts of valor above and beyond the call of duty. You'll hear about what they did, what it meant, and what their stories tell us about the nature of courage and sacrifice. But before we get to our new stories, I wanted to kick off season two by introducing you to our new host, J.R. martinez. J.R. is a US army veteran whose life changed forever when a roadside bomb exploded under his vehicle in Iraq in 2003. After over 34 surgeries for his severe burns, JR discovered a profound purpose helping others by sharing his own story. I can't imagine anyone better suited to guide us through these powerful stories of valor and sacrifice. Hi, J.R. nice to meet you.
- [03:28]
J.R. Martinez
Hello, Malcolm. Nice to meet you as well.
- [03:30]
Malcolm Gladwell
Welcome. We are so happy to have you taking over as host of Medal of Honor. And you are such a step up from me, it's unbelievable. You're actually a veteran, as opposed to just someone who was pretending to know about the Army.
- [03:45]
J.R. Martinez
Well, thank you, Malcolm. But, you know, when you mentioned, like, well, you're actual veteran versus someone who's pretend, I think that's the beauty of what you've created and the team has put together in season one and now leading into season two, I think if we can have more people that have never worn the uniform, that have maybe no real connection to the military to come and learn, and then, hopefully, at the accumulation of each episode in the season, people are feeling that much more connected and attached to the stories. I think it goes both ways. I think it's nice to have, yes, somebody that has served in the military, and it maybe feels like there's some credibility. But, man, as someone who served and as someone who has been around the military for a long time. Season one, when I listened to it, I learned so much, so many things that I had no clue about. So I think we're all in this boat together, quite frankly, just going on this journey of really, really discovering what the human spirit is truly capable of.
- [04:43]
Malcolm Gladwell
You know, the moment that season one hit home for me was I was giving a talk in Orlando, and somebody. It was the Q and A, and someone asked me about Medal of Honor, and I was, you know, saying I wanted to do the show because I felt there were all these incredible stories that needed to be told and that this was something going into 2026, which is the 250th anniversary of this country's founding. I thought it was really important to tell stories that united us all. And then one by one, throughout the audience, people started standing up and saying, I served in, you know, Marine Corps first. I was in the Navy, and I listened to that show, and I felt like I was finally being heard. Yeah, but what we did, what I was a part of, was finally. I just. It was incredibly moving. Really made me think that there's something really important and lovely about Medal of Honor, this storytelling journey that we're on.
- [05:38]
J.R. Martinez
I have always felt this level of uncomfort with imposter syndrome. Right. I was 19 when I was injured, and I found myself sort of thrust into these different circles, and there's A lot of these conversations that are happening, that I have no idea what people are talking about or truly understand them. But the more that I've traveled all over the world and have met such incredible people who have served in the military or have not, I guess it made me a little uncomfortable when people would say, jr look at what you've done. They would elevate me. And I just felt uncomfortable with that because I'm like, you have no idea. There are so many people out there that are walking amongst you in your community. When I get introduced, and I always ask for those that have served in the military or family members to please remain standing, and I challenge the audience, I say, look around at the people standing amongst you. Look at them. Do they look like me? Do they look like what most of us think of when we think of veterans? My scars and what my body's been through. And a lot of my friends who are missing limbs or have traumatic brain injuries or just have something physically that you can immediately identify and say, that person's been through something. But I can't tell you the amount of times, Malcolm, I've stood next to my friends who have served just as long as me that have done a hell of a lot more than I did, have done multiple tours. And people come right up to me and they say, thank you, and they do it in the most sincere place from their heart, and I appreciate that. But it's about reframing that. And I think when you talk about how many people stand up and say, we feel seen and we feel heard, and I think that's. That's part of what this series has done and is hopefully going to continue to do, is allow people to tell these stories that need to be told. And this is a perfect opportunity where you and the team have created something that it just allows me to completely geek out on these badass human beings.
- [07:47]
Malcolm Gladwell
And they are bad.
- [07:47]
J.R. Martinez
That are badass, man. And let me tell you something. Like, if we all just cared a little bit more, if you all just eliminated all the other things and just operated from this place of just pure humanity, what are the possibilities, man? They're endless.
- [08:03]
Malcolm Gladwell
Yeah. What did your family think about it when you signing up?
- [08:07]
J.R. Martinez
My mother's from Central America, El Salvador. My father's from Mexico. My mother came here as an undocumented immigrant and met my father here. And about a year and a half later, I was born in Louisiana, and so I'm a Southern boy, and I grew up in Louisiana, lived there for the first nine years, then moved to Arkansas. And then right before my senior year of high school, moved to Georgia. And listen, man, I was a kid that was. I was struggling. There was a lot of things that I was having to navigate. Nine years old, I'm getting myself up for school by myself, getting myself to school. My mom worked a graveyard shift, so it was a lot of responsibility.
- [08:44]
Malcolm Gladwell
Wow.
- [08:45]
J.R. Martinez
And my father wasn't in my life. My mother was involved in some pretty abusive relationships when I was younger. Demographically, I was one of the first Hispanic kids in Arkansas. And I struggled with that. And I would get into trouble a lot. And academically, like, I didn't really excel because I would be suspended from school three, five, seven days at a time. My defense mechanism was always to be like, well, this is dumb anyways. Just be the funny guy. You don't really quite understand how those things are going to play into your life until later. And so I moved to Georgia, my senior high school, and things got better because I. I felt like the community was different. And I started thinking about when I'm listening to Molly as a counselor talk about the way she leans into her students. The counselor calls me into his office and he says, hey, you're a senior. I'm looking at your transcript. You're not going to graduate on time. You don't have enough credits, you don't have the grades. What's going on? I vividly remember that interaction with him, and I was taken aback by that question, because that's a simple question, but no one had ever asked me that question. And he says, do you want to graduate on time? I said, I do. And he says, okay, well, let's put a plan together. And I start on this journey to graduate from high school. I had this vision, man, this really naive perspective that I was going to go to college and play football. Because that's what I see on Sundays and on espn. I went to this school and they told me that I could come to school there, but I would not be eligible to play sports at the college level for two years because of academics. So I was like, I'm not going to college then if I can't go to play football. Because that's how we are. And as cliche as it may sound, I mean, there's a reason they have them, because to some degree, it works. I was home one day watching tv, and a commercial popped up about the military. And it wasn't a brand new concept. Listen, the town that I graduated from, high school, I mean, recruiters had a presence at the school, as they do in most. Right. But this was probably an area you're really going to try to get some kids that have no alternatives. And then one of my football coaches, I serve. So I was like, you know what, Let me go down and talk to this recruiter and see what this is about. But I didn't tell my mother. So I go down to this recruiter, I go to all the branches, kind of skipped over the Navy. I was like, I don't see myself being on the ship. And then I went to the Marine Corps and they said, four years. We want you. Four years, the minimum. And I was like, trying to negotiate with the recruiter. And I was like, what about three? No, four years?
- [11:15]
Malcolm Gladwell
I don't think you negotiate with the Marine Corps.
- [11:18]
J.R. Martinez
And so then I was like, let me go next door. And I went to the Army. The Army's like, we'll take it. Whatever you want to commit to, we'll take it. And he gave me all this information, he put it in a folder. And I rushed home and I felt elated. I felt like I had found a solution for my life at this point. And I remember going into the house and saying to my mom, I figured it out. I know exactly what I'm going to do and I'm going to join the Army. And my mom said, absolutely not. Now, to give people context why she said no so quickly was in the early 80s El Salvador, there was a civil war that was happening. So my mother understands what war does to people. My mother has experienced that. When I was three years old, one of my sisters passed away from an illness she was born with. So my mother has lost a child. I graduated high school in 2002, and we already had troops in Afghanistan. We as a country were at war already. So my mother, understanding that, understood that if I joined the military during this time of war, there's a good chance of her losing another child, her only son. Listen, as a parent, you know that fear kicks in and you're like, absolutely not. And here's one of the most incredible gifts my mother gave me that I don't think she intended. I think it was just how she was trying to show up for me. My mother, in the midst of her listening to her son talk about joining the military during a time of war, she pulled up a chair and sat down right in front of me and said, okay, tell me why you believe this is the best thing for you. At the end of this two hour conversation, my mother said, if you want to join the military, if you believe that's what's best for you, I'll support you. And I just think about the courage. We talk about courage a lot, right, with Medal of Honor recipients. And you think about the courage it takes as a parent who has already experienced the worst thing that a parent can experience, and yet to put that aside and say, I'm there for you.
- [13:26]
Malcolm Gladwell
Yeah.
- [13:27]
J.R. Martinez
And so off I go, man. Off I go to the Army. I join in 11 Bravo, so I'm an infantryman. I go to basic training, Fort Benning, Georgia. I get assigned to my unit four months later, which was the 101st out of Fort Campbell, Kentucky, which is just outside of Nashville. 19 years old, you know, young kid in this unit. I was one of the youngest. It was me and two other people that were the youngest. I was definitely treated less. Here's this young guy. A lot of these guys had a lot of training and experience, and 19 years old, you put him in a unit during a time of conflict, and for the most part, he's going to feel like, incredibly naive, like nothing's going to happen. And even though I raised my right hand and knew that war was a possibility, I never thought it would be my reality. And sure enough, one of my sergeants one day came and pulled me aside and said that I needed to be prepared because we would be deploying sometime soon. And my response to this man, my platoon sergeant, who clearly outranks me by a decade and a half, my response to this man at the time was, sergeant, I just got out of basic. I just got here. Relax. Imagine telling your superior to just chill, bro. That's essentially what I did.
- [14:40]
Malcolm Gladwell
Having met you now for half an hour, I can imagine you saying that.
- [14:46]
J.R. Martinez
Thank you. That's a compliment. And so. And so, of course, after I was done doing push ups, I said that was for telling my superior to just relax. You know, it really set in that, hey, he was trying to tell me that physically I was fine, but mentally I was not ready. And sure enough, a few weeks later, I found myself on a plane heading over to war at the age of 19. Going to Iraq. Yeah, it all happened fast.
- [15:12]
Malcolm Gladwell
Where were you stationed in Iraq?
- [15:13]
J.R. Martinez
In Kuwait. Like, there was these little bases set up, and they were Camp New York and Camp Pennsylvania, and I think it was Camp Something else. And then once the conflict started, which was In March of 2003, we crossed over into Iraq. But we were one of those units. At least my company was. We were just in this holding pattern. Just a lot of our gear was not even there because they were on ships still coming over. And our job early on was to escort different jobs in the military from point A to point B. So we were part of these big convoys of helping people in the medical field or supplies or you name it, just get from here to there. And I just kind of going through the motions, not quite sure I understood my purpose, my role, the agenda. Just going through it, to be honest. And until one of my commanders one day introduced his concept of service. And after that, I started to buy in and look around and say, I have a role. I might not be the biggest member of this team and the most experienced, but I'm part of this team. I started to then plot, man, I'm not going to do this for three years. That I originally thought, I'm going to do this for 20 years. I could vividly remember nights where I'm sitting in a Humvee in the middle of the desert and looking up at this big, beautiful, bright sky. And I'm sitting there just thinking about, when I come back to the States, I'm going to go to Pathfinder, I'm going to go to Ranger, I'm going to, like, I'm 19. And then, of course, life decides, we're going to kind of take you on a little bit of a journey here, my friend, and we're going to change all that. And it did. It changed a lot.
- [16:52]
Malcolm Gladwell
When did you have your accent? You were how long into the Army?
- [16:57]
J.R. Martinez
It was seven months. Seven months and seven months. I want to make sure the listener doesn't have to hit, like the back button 15 seconds or 30 seconds to be like, wait, did he say seven months he was in country? No, I enlisted in September. September to December of 2002, was in basic. And then January of 03, I arrived. March of 03, I deployed. April of O3, I was injured. So just a few days shy of me being in country a full month I sustained my injury, which I was driving a Humvee through a city called Carballa when the front left tire, the Humvee that I was driving, ran over a roadside bomb. And I was trapped inside. And there were three other guys in the Humvee with me, but they were thrown out of the vehicle and they all walked away with minor physical injuries. And it's important for me to emphasize that because although physically they were okay, emotionally and mentally, they were not. I was trapped inside and this Humvee caught on fire. And five minutes trapped inside of this Humvee, man, fighting for your life, and you realize everything that you had been exposed to for 19 years of your life has prepared you for that very moment to survive and to fight. And I kept telling myself while I was in that Humvee, there was no reason to believe that someone's going to come and pull you out. Because you talk to any individual, military or not, that has had a near death experience will tell you that whatever timeframe it was that they were experiencing it, it feels like it's amplified by 10, right? So even though it's five minutes, it felt like 50 minutes, right? It just feels like no one's coming to your aid until they finally do. But throughout that five minutes, I would almost trick my brain. I would talk to myself and trick my brain to believing that someone was coming, they were coming. Eventually, two of my sergeants pulled me out, started the medevac process, and I ended up in San Antonio, Texas. And I was in the medical induced coma for three weeks.
- [19:00]
Malcolm Gladwell
Oh, wow.
- [19:01]
J.R. Martinez
And woke up in Texas. And the doctor's like, do you know where you are? I was like, this doesn't look like the last place I was in. Yeah, he says, you're in Texas and that's the burn center for the military.
- [19:30]
Malcolm Gladwell
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- [20:45]
Ryan Seacrest
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- [21:16]
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- [22:17]
Malcolm Gladwell
How much of your body was burned?
- [22:19]
J.R. Martinez
About 34%. Yeah, it's almost, if you looked at my body or any burn survivor, it's almost like looking at a map, right? Like it's just kind of the path and the structure and the patches. But the biggest thing at the time that was threatening whether I was going to survive or not was not so much the burns to my body was the inhalation damage was smoke that I inhaled.
- [22:37]
Malcolm Gladwell
Oh, yeah.
- [22:38]
J.R. Martinez
For the five minutes I was trapped inside, I was inhaling all this smoke from the fire. So they weren't sure if I was going to make it. This is 2003. They were like, we don't know if he's going to make it. And they told my mother, if he makes it. That was a lot of the language they were using with her.
- [22:54]
Malcolm Gladwell
Your mother's worst nightmare. The very thing she feared.
- [22:57]
J.R. Martinez
The very thing she feared. You know what's interesting, Malcolm, is I live my life and some people, my wife would tell you, you're probably one of the most fearless people that I know. And she's used the words at times, maybe reckless. You just think, nothing's going to happen. I was like, that's debatable. It's objective about reckless. You know, the reason why to some degree, I'm operate from this place of like just fearlessness, if you will. I'm deathly terrified of snakes. I'm scared of snakes. I don't like snakes. I don't know what it is. Never had a bad encounter with one. No one close to me has ever had one. But I just deathly terrified of snakes. And I remember when I came out of my medical induced coma and talking to my mother about now a lot of these dreams, and a lot of it was the drugs as well, right. And a lot of these dreams that I had, hallucinations, whatever. And I remember vividly telling her, I remember this dream that her and I were at some party, there were a lot of people there, and I'm sitting on the couch and. And all of a sudden there's this snake that slithering through the room, coming right at me. And the snake just lunges right at me and goes right into my mouth. And I fall on the ground and I'm trying to pull this snake out and everyone that was in the room rushes over and instead of trying to pull the snake out, they're pushing the snake in. And I'm looking at my mom and my mom's standing over these people looking down on me, and she's just terrified and I'm terrified. And I was like, that makes absolutely no sense. And then the more I started talking about my experiences and things, then I started remembering throughout my entire training, when I found out that I was going to deploy, the one thing I was terrified of. I wasn't terrified, believe it or not, that I would. I could get shot, that I could get stabbed, that I could. That I would die like that. The thing that I was terrified the most was a landmine. I was terrified of those. In our training, you have to learn how to spot them and then essentially diffuse them. And. And what was the thing that got me a landmine? The thing I feared the most? Yeah, my mother had this fear. And what was the thing that your snake. Right, yeah. What I later put together was that snake. What really was happening was that was when I was being intubated in country, because I met some people later that were part of a medical unit that treated me in country, and they said that I was fighting them off, that I was telling them I was okay. And clearly my body's going through shock. And they said they were trying to intubate me and I was fighting them and so they had to get a team of people to come and help intubate me, to hold me down so they can intubate me. But my body presented that as the thing that I'm terrified the most is a snake. And so when I think about those things, it starts to make me say, I can't operate from this place of fear, because the thing that I fear the most ends up catching up to me and getting me at the end. So I have to find a way to lean into this somehow. And it's a lesson, a hard lesson I had to learn and what I had to go through, but I'm grateful that I learned it. At the age of 19, 20 years old, I turned 20 in the hospital. 21 in the hospital, 22 in the hospital.
- [26:32]
Malcolm Gladwell
You were in the hospital for how long?
- [26:34]
J.R. Martinez
Almost three years.
- [26:35]
Malcolm Gladwell
Oh, my goodness.
- [26:37]
J.R. Martinez
Yeah.
- [26:37]
Malcolm Gladwell
While you were there, you met a nurse who made quite an impact on you.
- [26:41]
J.R. Martinez
Yeah. She is not the same one you talked about in season one. Her name is Mary Walker. Mary Walker from season one, who wore pants. Right. And wanted to wear pants all the time, but her name was Mary Walker and she's a nurse. Listen, when you're in a hospital setting for as long as I was, or even whatever amount of time you're in, that staff, they're not your doctors, your nurses, your respiratory therapist, they kind of become your family. Especially the experience that I had, yeah, there was such incredible human beings. I think as much as you can say it takes a special person to join the military, be a first responder, be a teacher, I think equally anybody to be in the medical field, it takes a special individual, especially in the burn ward. I'm not in the business of comparison, but I will tell you that I've talked to a lot of my friends who have sustained a variety of injuries. And it seems like burns. Recovering from that probably hands down, takes it just the amount of pain and discomfort you're put through. And we take for granted what the skin does for us until we don't have it. And so six months after I was injured, I'm just killing time between appointments, hanging out at the nurse's desk. And Ms. Walker says to me, J.R. why don't you go and visit that patient who just arrived and is struggling? And I said, and say what? And she's just go and talk to him. And I was like, absolutely not. She said, why not? And I said, I'm 20 years old. What am I going to say? I'm not a therapist. I'm not a, like I'm not a counselor. What am I going to say? I have nothing to say to this individual. And she just kept insisting. And so because we were on that dynamic of we were more like family and she was older, so it was almost like my mom telling me to go clean your room. And I responded to her as any child would to a parent, for the most part, where I was like, oh, fine, I'll do it. And I remember opening the door to this patient's room and every room in the hospital has these huge windows that is Texas. So it's a lot of light, a lot of sunlight, so lets a lot of natural sunlight come in. But it was completely pitch black dark in the room in the middle of the day. And I'm standing in the doorway and I just feel something in my stomach, man. And I just like, oh, I'm so uncomfortable. I don't want to walk into this room. And everything in me was telling me to just leave. And I had a moment where I had to pause and I had to say to myself, that's a human being. And what message is that sending to that individual if I just storm out of here? And so I just had to remind myself when I was in that position and all I wanted was someone to come and visit me. And so I just approached his bed, asked him a couple of questions, basic stuff. What's your name, where you from, what unit you're in, what happened? And then it turned into a 45 minute conversation to the point when I said, hey, man, I'm going to come back tomorrow. And I said, hey, you want me to bring you anything tomorrow? He said, no, man, all I need is a visit. Oh, wow. And I was like, okay. I started to walk out of the room, but before I could exit, something caught my attention. He had turned the light above his bed on, but he was starting to get out of his bed as well. And he was opening the curtain to the window. That was one of the early moments that I started to really pay attention. And what I paid attention to on that particular day was I shed some light. There was something that I was able to provide that I changed sort of the path to a degree. And I exited the room and approached the head doctor of the Burn Ward and said, can I visit patients every day? And he said, absolutely. And I started visiting patients every single day.
- [30:29]
Malcolm Gladwell
Love that JR. We'll continue with JR's story right after this quick break.
- [30:36]
J.R. Martinez
Foreign.
- [30:41]
Ryan Seacrest
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and safeway now through June 24th. Score. Hot summer savings and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags on items like Sargento cheese slices, Best Foods, mayonnaise, lay's Party sized chips and snacks and Triscuits. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pickup or delivery subject to availability restrictions. Restrictions apply. Visit Albertsons or Safeway.com for more details.
- [31:12]
Malcolm Gladwell
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- [32:58]
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- [33:30]
J.R. Martinez
When you talk about courage, this is probably of all the things that I'm most proud of that I've done. One thing that I was reminded of is I kept listening to especially when you talk about like Henry Johnson's story of season one and from Albany. And now he's paraded in New York City and he's promised all these incredible things and he's invited to St. Louis to speak in front of 5,000 people. And this man did this incredible heroic thing as a black man. And he gets on stage and he tells the truth about how he's treated, about how other black service members are treated. He talks about the challenges he experienced, and people didn't like that. And it takes courage to do that. But to know that essentially everybody turned their back on him. Fast forward about a year after I'm injured. I'm now involved in a nonprofit. And it's a nonprofit to help service members, their families. And one of the biggest gaps that I kept witnessing was when I would go into these rooms and talk to these patients. All the care was taken care of. Their family's lodging was taken care of, their meals were taken care of. But what was not taken care of if you came from a two income household or even if your parents are the ones that are having to relocate to be by your side, well, guess what? The bills are still accumulating at home. Who's paying those bills? So I would be in these rooms visiting these patients and their families were there and I would be privy to these conversations of talking about, how are we going to pay this, how are we going to pay that? And I just thought that was such a, an injustice and I thought that was such a horrible thing that they have to navigate. They can't even heal because they're too busy trying to figure out finances. And so in this nonprofit, I started going on TV and talking about the nonprofit and what people could do and donate, and people started donating. The nonprofit would give me a check of $2,500, $5,000. And I would go into these patients room and I would say, here's a check to pay for whatever it is, so you don't have to worry about that at least. And then all of a sudden, I get a call from my commander in San Antonio. I'm part of the wounded brigade, right? All the wounded troops are part of this battalion. So I go into his office and it's him and a couple of sergeant majors and the first sergeant standing there and they're like, the general wants to speak to you. They drive me up to the general's office and they're marching me in. And the general's like, you can't do that. And I said, do what? He said, you can't. As an active duty service member you can't endorse a private organization. And I was like, oh, I didn't know that. And I was like, well sir, what about there's gaps and lack of better words. He just listen, that's not your problem. You can't do that. And I said, well, what happens if I continue to do it? He says, you can be Article 15, you could be kicked out. And I said to him, I said, if that's the consequence, to do what I feel is right, then kick me out, kick me out, sir. He didn't like that. Of course I was injured as a private and I woke up as a specialist corporal. Like I just instantly got promoted. But he didn't like that there was this younger ranking, telling a one star general do it, then challenging him. But I felt it was right, man. And sure enough I got called into the office again and, and I pretty much stood my ground and felt like it was the right thing. And I said, unless the military steps up and is able to meet those families needs in that capacity, you know, that's what. When I hear at least season one and you hear about these stories and read about them, you're like, man, the courage it took for a lot of these individuals and just like them, you know, I've had people come up to me over the years that said, man, what you did. And I'm like, I don't feel any, I don't feel any different. I don't feel I should be elevated any more than anybody else. I'd like to believe that we would all do this right. I mean, that's my hope. At least tell me a little bit.
- [37:50]
Malcolm Gladwell
About clearly spending an enormous amount of time talking to people who have been through something consequential, for lack of a better word. And that's what this show is about, is getting people to talk about something really, really, really big and important and hard. How do you get people to talk about something this hard?
- [38:11]
J.R. Martinez
I think a lot of people just simply need to feel like you're listening. I always talk about this distinction between listening and hearing. Like I'm actively listening to you, Malcolm. So I could actually repeat back to you the question you just asked me almost verbatim. If I'm hearing. I'm sorry, what'd you say? Right. You start to get into that if I start looking at my watch, if I start looking at a clock, if I start. There's all these other things, people start to lose this interest. And I think when you think of Molly's story from season one and she talked about listening. She talked about the importance of being present and listening, but then equally not just listening in the traditional sense. But for her as a teacher, ELA teacher, she's like, listening to the writings, paying attention to what kids are putting down on paper, right. When they're allowed that freedom to go and express and write about whatever. What I've discovered, when I find myself in the presence of an individual who may feel a little bit more open to talking, I need to make sure that I'm equally open to listening. And in order for me to get to that point in my life, I had to do a tremendous amount of work on myself, first and foremost. Because earlier on, when people would share things, I would realize some things triggered me. Whether it was related to the injury, whether it was a military story, or if it was just something they experienced outside of the military, things would trigger me. And I had to ensure that if I was going to be able to show up for people, I needed to do the work on myself so I could be fully present. But what did it for me? I could tell you that the physical recovery, obviously, was challenging. There's no secret there. But the emotional and mental recovery that came after I left the hospital when I was 22, 23, 24, was really challenging. I was not a pleasant kid to be around. For the most part. I was drinking, I was angry, I was resentful. I would take it out on people. Little things would trigger me. And my friend would say, man, you go in and you bite and you latch on and you don't let go. And it's just because I was carrying so much, and not just from my military experience, but from prior. And this person that told me that was also a veteran. And we worked together at this nonprofit. We were around each other a lot. And one day we were on a trip with some other veterans at a fundraiser. And after dinner, we're driving back to the hotel, and somebody says something, and I just, again, I'm in a bad place, and I make a snarky remark. And this individual is driving, and he tells me to chill out. Simple, hey, man, chill out. But I didn't like that. So I snapped back at him, mouthing, and I told him, pull the car over, let's fight, because that was the only tools I had. And he pulls over, and I'm getting out of the car, and these other two vets are trying to hold me back from getting out of the backseat of the car. And you get some dark humor when you go through something like this. So one of the guys is a double amputee and, you know, legs below the knee. And he's holding on to me around my waist, and I'm just pulling the sled with weights, and all of a sudden you hear. And his prosthetics pop out. So I'm carrying half of a body. Like, he eventually lets go, and then he low crawls back over to his legs, pops him back in. And I'm coming around and trying to fight the driver, and the driver wants no part of it. So he tells me to get back in the car. I get back in the car, and I'm just. I'm just, ugh. And we get back to the hotel, man, and we're all getting out, and the driver, his name is Dan, puts the window down. He says, JR get back in the car. And I sit in the passenger seat, and he tells me to cry. And I was like, what do you mean? He says, man, you need to cry. And I was like, no, I don't. And he said it again. And before you know it, I just started crying. And then all of a sudden, I just started, like, sharing a lot of things. And the power of that. Ten minutes ago, I was trying to severely injure this man. I was just so angry and mad. The irony of that is I'm five nine, about 200 pounds. He's six foot four, 285 pounds. So luckily, he didn't engage, because had he done that, it wouldn't have worked out so well for me. But instead, he chose love. He chose to show up as a human being. And every time we would end a conversation, prior to this interaction, over the phone or in person, he would always say, I love you. He would always tell me that I thought that was weird. Like, I was just like, okay. And I would always respond, all right, bro. Because my dad wasn't in my life. I never had a male figure in my life, so I wasn't comfortable with that. I didn't know how to receive that. And that night in that car, in that parking lot of the hotel at 2, 3 o' clock in the morning, I looked at him and I said, thank you. I love you. And to tell you that my life instantly like that, it just changed my willingness to be vulnerable. But in the right space, with the right person, not everyone's ready. Not everyone's equipped to be that listener, right? But Dan had done so much work on himself because of things he experienced in his life that he was able to show up for me in that way, in that moment. Now I've passed that on. I've come in contact with a few of my friends that I served with in the military that reached out years later and we start talking every single day because they're not in the great place. And I end the conversation by telling them I love them and they don't say it back initially. And that's okay. I'm still going to say it because I do. And I talked to my friend the other day. We both met when we joined the military in basic training. Both young, 18, 19 year old kids, naive, no clue in the world the journey we were going to go on. Before I hang up, I say I love you man. And he says I love you too. And we hang up. And to normalize that, to normalize the ability to talk and to share without judgment, I think is what we need. We need more people to feel that it's okay to share those things, it's okay to talk about those things. That there's a tremendous amount of power and strength that comes from sharing those things.
- [44:51]
Malcolm Gladwell
That's beautiful. Yeah, Tell me what's coming up that's exciting. What are you excited about? What should the listeners out there expect?
- [45:01]
J.R. Martinez
Just a continuation of season one in regards to learning about some incredible individuals and learning about their very simple lives prior to the military and the things that they were exposed to prepared them to be these incredible individuals that went on to do such incredible things. From learning about somebody that would go catch chickens in the middle of the night, who knew that that was like actually a job. And and to say that individual was like I felt prepared for the military not because I played sports but because I would go catch chickens. Yeah, like you're a professional chicken chaser. From that to Alvin York who did some incredible things in the military, we're going to talk about an astronaut. We're going to pivot a little bit and talk about something completely different. That is not sort of the traditional. I mean you did that in season one with Molly. Right. And then we're bringing that in with a female astronaut. And I'm just excited as someone who's in awe of these individuals and what they've done. And so I hope that people that have listened to season one continue to stay and not only that, but bring more of their friends and family along for the journey. I actually have had from season one and the subjects that you guys covered, I brought a lot of those stories to our dinner table, to my wife, to my 13 year old daughter. I can tell you that when I'm sitting there talking about these individuals. My daughter is sitting there. That's a critical age where they're like, okay, can I go do something else? Okay, I don't want to hear that. And she's engaged. And I think these are beautiful stories that I think the entire family needs to hear. Buddies sitting around together need to hear more of. You created something great, Malcolm, and I just want to make sure that I'm doing not only you, but the team and these stories justice, you know, no question about that. It's incredible what this show is all about, man. And I hope that we can all see a little bit of ourselves and each one of these individuals because there's a little bit of us in every single one of them or a little bit of them in every single one of us. We just got to be willing to discover it.
- [47:12]
Malcolm Gladwell
Yeah. Thank you, jr. This has been wonderful.
- [47:16]
J.R. Martinez
Thank you.
- [47:19]
Malcolm Gladwell
This episode of Medal of Stories of Courage was produced by Jess Shane. Our editor is Ben Nadaff. Sound design and additional music by Jake Gorski. Our executive producer is Constanza Gallardo. Fact checking by Arthur Gomperts Original music by Eric Phillips. We also want to hear from you. Send us your personal story of courage or highlight someone else's bravery. Email us at MedalOfHonorushkin FM. You might hear your stories on future episodes of Medal of Honor or see them on our social channels, ushkinpods. Subscribe to Pushkin plus to get early episodes of Medal of Honor ad free starting May 28. Subscribers also get bonus episodes, full audiobooks and an early ad free listing from your favorite Pushkin host, hosts and authors. Find Pushkin plus on the Medal of Honor show page on Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin fm. Plus Listen to Medal of Honor wherever you get your podcasts.
- [48:32]
Ryan Seacrest
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- [50:09]
Ryan Seacrest
This is an iHeart podcast.