Welcoming Heavyweight

Summary

Revisionist History

Title: Welcoming Heavyweight
Host/Author: Pushkin Industries
Release Date: February 27, 2025

---

Introduction to Heavyweight

In the episode titled "Welcoming Heavyweight," Jonathan Goldstein introduces listeners to his narrative podcast, "Heavyweight." This new addition to the Pushkin Network delves into personal histories, unresolved conflicts, and the quest for reconciliation. Goldstein, a native of Quebec, brings his unique storytelling prowess to explore the complexities of familial relationships, emphasizing the power of storytelling to heal old wounds and uncover shared humanity.

Notable Quote:

"Heavyweight examines personal histories and resentments. It tries to heal old wounds and in the process reminds us of our shared humanity. Yes, it's that good."
— Malcolm Gladwell (00:00)

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The Story of Buzz and Sheldon

At the heart of this episode is the strained relationship between Buzz and his brother Sheldon. Buzz, now 80, and Sheldon, 85, have been estranged for over four decades, ever since a bitter conflict that surfaced during their mother's funeral arrangements. Their lack of communication has left Jonathan Goldstein concerned about the lingering regrets his father might harbor as both brothers age.

Notable Quote:

"My father feels competing things. He grows angry or defensive. But other times he'll become sad and remorseful. And it's the sorrow and the remorse that I like best because it's these feelings that I believe speak to his better self."
— Jonathan Goldstein (05:00)

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Attempting Reconciliation: Phone Conversations

Goldstein takes on the role of mediator, initiating conversations with both Buzz and Sheldon to pave the way for reconciliation. His first call to Buzz aims to persuade him to visit Sheldon, highlighting the urgency due to their advancing ages.

Notable Quote:

"I wanted to ask you something, and I just wanted to gauge your interest."
— Jonathan Goldstein (05:03)

Buzz expresses skepticism and apathy towards the idea, revealing deep-seated resentment:

"I have no feelings. I'm not really interested."
— Buzz (06:41)

---

Planning the Trip

Undeterred, Goldstein works to set up a meeting between the estranged brothers. With assistance from his mother, they agree on a tentative travel date to Florida, where Sheldon resides. The anticipation builds as Buzz and Jonathan prepare for the journey, reflecting on past grievances and the weight of unspoken emotions.

Notable Quote:

"If you have a stronger sense that he was interested in seeing you, then would you?"
— Jonathan Goldstein (09:58)

---

The Meeting in Florida

Upon arriving at Sheldon's residence in Fort Lauderdale, the atmosphere is tense. Sheldon, a reclusive figure with a penchant for cigars, initially appears indifferent. However, as the conversation unfolds, layers of their shared past emerge.

Notable Quote:

"It's a very strange feeling. We are strangers to each other now, yet he's my brother."
— Buzz (19:38)

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Unraveling the Past

Goldstein facilitates a heart-wrenching dialogue between Buzz and Sheldon, uncovering the roots of their estrangement. They recount memories from their childhood, including their mother's departure and their father's volatile temper. Discrepancies in their recollections highlight the subjective nature of memory and the pain of unresolved family dynamics.

Notable Quote:

"I always felt I was on the up and up with him, and he wasn't with me."
— Buzz (09:52)

---

Emotional Confrontations and Revelations

As the brothers delve deeper, they confront painful truths about their father and each other. Sheldon reveals his struggle with resentment, while Buzz grapples with feelings of neglect and favoritism. The conversation is raw, interspersed with bitter exchanges and moments of vulnerability.

Notable Quote:

"He was smacking around and she ran out in the hall."
— Jamie Dimon (28:14)

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Paths to Forgiveness

Despite the intense discussions, moments of levity and nostalgia resurface. Shared experiences from their youth, such as playing stickball, provide a foundation for empathy and understanding. By addressing their mutual grievances, Buzz and Sheldon begin to dismantle the barriers that have kept them apart for decades.

Notable Quote:

"Easy answer. Yes. Because we're not getting any younger."
— Buzz (44:08)

---

Conclusion: A Step Towards Healing

The episode culminates with a tentative agreement to move forward, leaving behind years of bitterness. While the reconciliation is not without its challenges, the willingness to engage marks a significant step towards healing. Goldstein reflects on the profound impact of facing the past, underscoring the importance of seizing the moment to mend broken relationships.

Notable Quote:

"If not now, when?"
— Jonathan Goldstein (35:14)

---

Final Reflections

Jonathan Goldstein's "Heavyweight" serves as a poignant exploration of familial estrangement and the arduous journey towards forgiveness. Through meticulous storytelling and emotional depth, the episode invites listeners to contemplate their own unresolved conflicts and the possibilities of reconciliation.

Notable Quote:

"We’re riding on Queens Boulevard. Johnny's in the backseat with the who. He's got his naked ass up in the air and he's humping."
— Jamie Dimon (37:10)

---

Production Credits

• Hosted and Produced by: Jonathan Goldstein
• Produced by: Wendy Dore, Chris Neary, and Kahlilah Holt
• Editing by: Alex Bloomberg and Peter Clowney
• Special Thanks: Caitlin Kenny, Starlie Kyne, and Rachel Ward
• Mixed by: Haley Shaw
• Music: Christine Fellows; Additional music by Haley Shaw
• Theme Song: The Weaker Thans, courtesy of Epitaph Records

---

Additional Information

• A version of this story appears on This American Life, with contributions from Ira Glass, Julie Snyder, Jonathan Menhivar, Sean Cole, and Robin Semion.
• Follow Heavyweight on Twitter: @heavyweight
• Next Episode: Coming next week

---

Notable Timestamps and Quotes

• [05:03]

  "Heavyweight examines personal histories and resentments. It tries to heal old wounds and in the process reminds us of our shared humanity."
  — Malcolm Gladwell

• [09:58]

  "If you have a stronger sense that he was interested in seeing you, then would you?"
  — Jonathan Goldstein

• [19:38]

  "It's a very strange feeling. We are strangers to each other now, yet he's my brother."
  — Buzz

• [28:14]

  "He was smacking around and she ran out in the hall."
  — Jamie Dimon

• [35:14]

  "If not now, when?"
  — Jonathan Goldstein

• [37:10]

  "We’re riding on Queens Boulevard. Johnny's in the backseat with the who. He's got his naked ass up in the air and he's humping."
  — Jamie Dimon

• [44:08]

  "Easy answer. Yes. Because we're not getting any younger."
  — Buzz

---

Note: This summary has been crafted to encapsulate the essence of the "Welcoming Heavyweight" episode, highlighting key discussions and emotional milestones without delving into advertisements and non-content sections.

Transcript

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Foreign.

[Ben Walter]

The Unshakables podcast is kicking off season two with an episode you won't want to miss. Join host Ben Walter, CEO of Chase for Business, as he welcomes a very special guest, Chairman and CEO of JP Morgan Chase, Jamie Dimon. Hear about the challenges facing small businesses and some of the oh moments Jamie has overcome. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Chase Mobile app is available for select mobile devices. Message and data rates may apply. J.P. morgan Chase Bank NA Member FDIC Copyright 2025 J.P. morgan Chase & Co.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Hello, hello, Malcolm Gladwell here. I've teamed up with Kenya Barris, one of the most talented and hilarious filmmakers in Hollywood, for a brand new podcast, the Unusual Suspects, where we hang out with people we're obsessed with and have them tell us something we didn't know about success. Season 1 Dr. Dre, WNBA legend Sue Bird, Jimmy Kimmel, filmmaker Ava DuVernay, celebrity chef David Chang, and on and on. Listen to the Unusual Suspects with Kenya Barris and Malcolm Gladwell on Audible. Now go to audible.com unusual suspects LinkedIn will help connect you with professionals you can't find anywhere else, even people who aren't actively looking for a new job in a given month. Over 70% of LinkedIn users don't visit other leading job sites. So if you're not looking at LinkedIn, you're looking in the wrong place. Hire professionals like a professional. Post your job for [e-mail] that's LinkedIn.com gladwell to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. Hello, hello revisionist history listeners. We're having a very exciting week here at Pushkin. You know that I'm Canadian, right? We actually fly a big maple leaf flag here at Pushkin hq. Well, this week we added another Canadian. The great Jonathan Goldstein, native of Quebec, has brought his acclaimed narrative series Heavyweight to the Pushkin Network. O Canada, our home and native land, True patriot love in all our hearts command. Jonathan and the heavyweight team represent everything we believe in here at Pushkin. The power of storytelling, the value of intelligence and emotion, the belief that Canadians can and should dominate all aspects of American culture. Heavyweight examines personal histories and resentments. It tries to heal old wounds and in the process reminds us of our shared humanity. Yes, it's that good. We're dropping the first ever episode here in the feed about Jonathan's quest to reconcile his father with his estranged brother Buzz. Enjoy. And there is much, much, much more to come. And if you want to listen to More Heavyweight, which I'm sure you do, check out the show Notes for the Revisionist History Team's favorite episodes.

[Sheldon]

Yellow.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

From Gimlet Media, this is Jonathan Goldstein, your old pal.

[Sheldon]

Is that what it's called? Gimlet. Gimlet Media.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

That's correct.

[Sheldon]

It sounds like giblets. The inside of a chicken, like all the innards.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Well, everybody loves giblets.

[Sheldon]

Ew.

[Buzz]

Oh, shit.

[Sheldon]

They're my kids.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Hey, guys, I'm up here. Do you know what my new podcast is about?

[Sheldon]

No, I don't know anything about it.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Each week, I travel into people's pasts to help them repair something that's been troubling them. Mm. I'm sort of like a therapist.

[Sheldon]

Like a therapist.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So. Yeah. Do you find that funny?

[Sheldon]

I just think supportive.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

That's the laughter of support.

[Sheldon]

I think it's great. I think it's great.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Do you have any questions for me about what my show is and what it's going to be like?

[Sheldon]

What's the name of your show? What's the name of your show? Yes, we're going to go now, but Jonathan's just about to tell me the name of his new show. As soon as he tells me, I'm going to bang down on him in five minutes.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

No, no, wait.

[Sheldon]

Do you remember when we used to do that?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yes.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Hang up the phone on each other. Okay, ready?

[Buzz]

Yes.

[Father]

Yes.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

The name of the show is Heavyweight.

[Sheldon]

Heavyweight.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You get it?

[Sheldon]

2, 1.

[Jamie Dimon]

Time to say goodbye.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Hello. Hello. From Gimlet Media, I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is Heavyweight. Today's episode. Buzz.

[Father]

Hello?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Hey, dad.

[Father]

Hi, Johnny.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Hey, how you doing?

[Father]

Good. You?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Good, good, good. Yomtiv shana tova aksimeya aksameh.

[Father]

What's that mean?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I'm not sure. Oh, this is my father, Buzz. I'm calling him at his home in Montreal. And the reason we're talking crazy talk is because it's Yom Kippur, the Jewish day of atonement, which seems as good a day as any to talk with him about forgiveness. So I wanted to. I wanted to ask you something, and I just wanted to gauge your interest.

[Father]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

How would you feel about paying your brother Sheldon a visit?

[Father]

I have no feelings. I'm not really interested.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You're not?

[Father]

No.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

My father, Buzz, is 80, and his brother Sheldon, his only sibling, is. Is 85. And for the past 40 years, they've pretty much been on the outs. My father lives in Montreal and Sheldon lives in Florida. And the last time they saw each other over 20 years ago was at their mother's funeral when they had a fight over the details of the arrangements since then, they've hardly spoken. It worries me because there's not a lot of time left. And I don't want my father to have regrets when the subject of his brother comes up, as it often has over the years, my father feels competing things. He grows angry or defensive. But other times he'll become sad and remorseful. And it's the sorrow and the remorse that I like best because it's these feelings that I believe speak to his better self. The self I want to encourage. I'm not surprised that you're not jumping at the idea, but I'm a little surprised that you're as against the idea.

[Father]

Yeah, time's past. He hasn't shown much interest, so I'm respecting and I leave him alone.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

What he did do was he called you on your 80th birthday not so.

[Father]

Long ago, and you called him on his 80th birthday.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

This kind of tit for tat accounting is what always gets in the way. There's been a competition between the brothers since I was a kid. I remember how in my grandmother's small New York kitchen, Sheldon and Buzz got into an argument about who could do the most push ups. And the next thing I knew, my father was pulling off his shirt and dropping to the kitchen floor in his undershirt. My mother, not used to seeing this side of him, stood over my father flapping a dish towel hysterically while begging him to the point of tears to please stop. Now you go, my father said, rising from the floor when he was done. But Sheldon shook his head with a smile. It was like he didn't even think my father was worth the effort.

[Father]

You know what it is at this point with him? I'll tell you what it is. I don't think it's even anger. He's past anger and he's past any. Any feelings of animosity. He's passed that. He just doesn't care.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Father]

You know, that's apathy. And I mean, sometimes at least hate or love their emotions. Apathy is nothing.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Father]

You know what, Johnny? As a child, even When I was 10, when I was 9 and 8, I was crazy about him.

[Sheldon]

We had a great.

[Father]

You know, I loved him. He was the older brother. He was.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Hello? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm listening.

[Father]

You know, I just looked up to him and he had all the friends. Sometimes he'd take me along with him and he was good. Somebody tried to call here, binging me here.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Don't you see, Buzz? It's Father Time. Who is binging you? Here. And Buzz loses track of time. Air conditioners remain boxed all through July, and expired coupons from the mid-90s make Plump his wallet. So I worry he'll put off reaching out to Sheldon until it's too late. The most complicated question, the one I keep coming back to, is how did the bad blood begin? And there are many versions. An ill fated trip to Montreal, where Sheldon felt slighted about having to stay in my father's basement. An ill fated trip to New York, where my father felt slighted about having to stay in Sheldon's attic. Rude words spoken to each other's wives. In one version of the story, Sheldon's refusal to bring a table to my bris almost resulted in my being circumcised on an ironing board. But in the version being told today, my father was asked by Sheldon to pay more than his fair share for their mother's funeral.

[Father]

And I said, you always work in some kind of an angle. So that he got furious. He got furious. He started screaming into the phone, go to hell. Drop dead.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Ba ba ba.

[Father]

He was that. That was how that ended. But I feel he's the kind of guy that he got. He has angles like that, you know? He has angles. I always felt I was on the up and up with him, and he wasn't with me.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

If you got a stronger sense that he was interested in seeing you, then would you?

[Father]

Yes. Yes.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You would be more interested to see.

[Father]

I wouldn't say it as house, though. That's out of the question.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Okay, quick sidebar. Anytime I've ever raised the prospect of visiting Sheldon, no matter how hypothetical the scenario, my father always makes a point of insisting how, no matter what, he would not stay in Sheldon's house even if he was invited to, which, I should point out, he never is.

[Father]

I wouldn't stay at his house.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

How come you?

[Father]

I wouldn't stay there. I mean, not my thing.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

How come you always bring that up? I mean, normally when someone goes to visit someone that they haven't seen in decades, they'll stay at a hotel, you.

[Father]

Know, I would stay at a motel or somewhere near.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

A motel. Yeah. No, we get a place, you know, with an ice machine and, you know.

[Father]

Why you want to. You're interested in making a trip.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I mean, I'm interested. Do you think that there's anything to be gained in. In seeing him?

[Father]

I guess there's something. I mean, you know, you share your common experience and talk about the old days, and there are things that only he and I can remember, you know?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Father]

You know, you. What you could do is you could call him and see what his attitude is. You know, it depends on, you know, how you feel, what kind of reception you get.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah, I mean, I would, I would be happy to do that. My kids.

[Father]

I like your initial suggestion that you call him, feel him out and see what he's like.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Okay, I didn't suggest that. But you suggested that.

[Father]

Yeah, I like that. Just, look, you'll give me an honest. You'll give me an honest reaction.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I'm happy to do it. But I mean, what are you looking for from. What do you want to hear from him?

[Father]

I miss my brother. I would like to see him.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Okay.

[Father]

That's all.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Okay.

[Father]

You understand? And you come back on me with an honest evaluation.

[Sheldon]

Hello?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Sheldon?

[Sheldon]

Yes, speaking.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Hi.

[Sheldon]

I was quite a shock getting your phone call. You said, John, I. My hearing is not that great.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Okay.

[Sheldon]

And when I heard the first message, I'm saying, who the heck is that? I don't know anybody by that name.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Sheldon now lives outside of Fort Lauderdale. But my few memories of him are from when he lived in upstate New York. I remember he lived in a trailer. I remember that he worked at a local prison, that he smoked cigars, that he looked a little like my father but was hunched, like the world was weighing down on him. And he always wore this expression on his face that seemed to say, you gotta be kidding me. You're keeping okay? You're keeping occupied?

[Sheldon]

Yeah, I read a lot. I go to the gym. I go shopping, you know, here and there, little things here and there.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And so you still go. How often do you go to the gym?

[Sheldon]

Three times a week.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Wow. And what kind of stuff do you do there?

[Sheldon]

Well, I do about 20 minutes of aerobics and then I do a little weight training. I try to flirt a little with the women there.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Oh, yeah, my father also goes to the gym. That's a part of his routine. Also, he was. He was happy to hear from you on his 80th birthday.

[Sheldon]

Yeah, well, he didn't call me on my 85th though.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Tit meet tat. Yeah, like so, you know, maybe we could go out for dinner. I don't know, that kind of thing.

[Sheldon]

Uh huh. Well, what kind of time frame are we talking about here?

I don't know. Our lives have been much different. I don't know how much we have to have in common anymore.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Sheldon]

We don't have. We don't have much in common anymore, except the fact that we're elderly and retired. Other than that, I don't know what we have in common.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You have your past in common.

[Sheldon]

Yes. I'll tell you honestly, I'm not a very sentimental person. Being a pragmatist, I take things the way they are. I try not to dwell upon the past, and I try not to take people the way I remember them, but as they are.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Do you think that makes things easier?

[Sheldon]

Makes things easier for me, yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Do other people around you sometimes. Does it make it harder for other people around you ever.

[Sheldon]

To be honest with you, I've been. The last few years, I've been a loner. You would basically almost call me a recluse. I don't socialize with many people, and I really don't give a damn what anybody thinks.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Sheldon]

And contrary to popular belief, I like being alone by myself. I get along with myself very well.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Sheldon]

Look, I don't want to be rude, but I want to go have my lunch.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fine. That's fine. Sheldon, I appreciate your talking to me, and you would be amenable to spending some time.

[Sheldon]

Why not? We are brothers. I mean, we're not close or anything, but, you know, we're not going to have a chance to see each other much in the future.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah. Is that anything that you think about?

[Sheldon]

Not much, no.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And so I call my father back and let him know that Sheldon is amenable. And because I know that for my father, the days tend to pile up like unboxed air conditioners, I have my mother get on the phone to help nail down a firm travel date.

[Father]

And Daddy wants to go.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

If dad wants to go. If he wants to go.

[Father]

Does he want to go next weekend?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

We don't have to go on the weekend. We can go during the week.

[Father]

Yeah, it comes as, you know. He caught me off guard.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

How about if.

[Father]

I'll call you Wednesday or Thursday. How's that?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Today's Monday. Or. Yeah. Or even if you feel like calling tomorrow, you can call me.

[Father]

Yeah, okay. I'll probably call you at the latest Thursday.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Did you get the Thursday at the latest. That's three days from today.

[Father]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Okay. I have to. You do what you want to do. You call me.

[Father]

But I'll call you Thursday.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Coming up after the break. Thursday. And so on Thursday, possibly with a little nudging from my mother. Buzz agrees. And then my father and I are off to Florida to visit my Uncle Sheldon.

[Buzz]

And then. Do you have an address?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah, I do.

[Buzz]

Okay.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

My dad and I meet up at the Fort Lauderdale airport. I flew from New York and my dad From Montreal. My father's all dressed up, wearing a faux suede sports jacket that I've never seen him in. We grab our airport rental and Prepare for the two hour drive to Sheldon in the 90 degree heat. It's immediately made clear that faux suede might not have been the best fashion choice.

[Buzz]

It's like we're on a safari here.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

On the road to Sheldon's. My father will experience a spectrum of feelings as we first set out. There's excitement, you know, My brother was.

[Buzz]

Funny in a lot of ways.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I could laugh.

[Buzz]

We're gonna have laughs with him, you know what I mean? He's a very funny man.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

A half an hour in and there's bitterness.

[Buzz]

We invited him to your bar mitzvah and he returned a very cold card. Sorry, we will not be attending. You know, so mean.

[Father]

You know what I mean?

[Buzz]

Even the writing.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And an hour in. And how is Buzz feeling?

[Buzz]

I'm relaxed. Kind of old to get anxious, you know what I mean?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

A half an hour to Sheldon's a.

[Buzz]

Little bit apprehensive now.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah. Ten minutes to Sheldon's and Buzz is feeling all right. Yeah. You feeling a little.

[Jamie Dimon]

No.

[Buzz]

It's gonna be strange. Yeah, it's gonna be very strange. I mean, the man is a stranger to me now, and yet he's my brother. You understand? It's a very strange feeling.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Buzz]

I wonder if he's getting nervous. Maybe because he's waiting for us. Right?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah.

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[Malcolm Gladwell]

I was joking with my producer Jacob the other day, who's one of Pushkin's most valuable employees. I hired him to be my assistant years ago in the most random manner possible. I think he saw a message board posting somewhere and I interviewed him for basically 10 minutes and said, go for it. I made a wild gamble on someone and got incredibly lucky. But let's be honest, you can't rely on getting lucky when it comes to hiring people. Lightning's not going to strike more than once. You need a system and you need tools. And that's why LinkedIn is so important. LinkedIn is more than just a job board. They help connect you with professionals you can't find anywhere else. Even people who aren't actively looking for a new job in a given month. Over 70% of LinkedIn users don't visit other leading job sites. So if you're not looking on LinkedIn, you're looking in the wrong place. Hire professionals like a professional and post your job for [e-mail] gladwell that's LinkedIn.com gladwell to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You all set?

[Buzz]

Yeah.

[Jamie Dimon]

Ooh, it's hot.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

It's really hot. Yeah. Sheldon lives in the corner house on a quiet suburban street. Ring the bell?

[Buzz]

I guess. Is this his door?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I'll double check.

[Buzz]

Maybe.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Oh, here he is. Hello.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Hey.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Hi.

[Jamie Dimon]

Jonathan. Nice to meet you.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah, come in, come in. Thank you.

[Buzz]

I smell the good smell of cigar.

[Jamie Dimon]

Yeah. Lately, I've become a monk. Me and my pussycat.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Oh, you got a cat. After all the years and the worry and the dread, things seem to be going swimmingly. We sit down at Sheldon's kitchen table and my father gets right into it.

[Buzz]

Now there's things I want to know. You said that Rainey died.

[Jamie Dimon]

Yeah, she did die.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

The dead are a good place to begin. As a subject, they're easily agreed upon and not likely to spark a fight.

[Jamie Dimon]

Your uncle died.

[Buzz]

Your uncle died. He was the youngest brother.

[Jamie Dimon]

Oh, he died long ago.

[Buzz]

He died. Eh? Oh, you know who died?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Who?

[Buzz]

Hoffman.

[Jamie Dimon]

Hoffman. A real prick.

[Buzz]

Yeah, I didn't know him that well. I didn't know. Yeah, yeah, Knish. Oh, that's shocking.

[Jamie Dimon]

Yes. He was fat.

[Buzz]

He was fat. Redhead.

[Jamie Dimon]

Redhead, right?

[Buzz]

Yeah.

[Jamie Dimon]

Knish.

[Buzz]

Yeah. Remember. Remember Johnny? Johnny was a sex maniac.

[Jamie Dimon]

Oh, he would a dog on the street. If you saw the dog, he tried to. The dog. Can I get you guys a cold beer?

[Buzz]

I'd like a beer.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I'll have a beer. Even though they're in their 80s, Sheldon and Buzz still possess voices and temperaments suited to shouting out Brooklyn tenement windows, while my voice. Yeah, I'll have a beer. Is best suited to asking a waitress if there will be a sharing character. Forgot about that. Sorry. Case in point. This is Sheldon accidentally swiping a portable microphone receiver off the kitchen table and me trying to smooth things over.

[Jamie Dimon]

Take this off, will you? It's annoying.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Here, just put it in the. In your pocket there.

[Jamie Dimon]

Just take it off, will you, please? Thank you. Thank you.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Over the next couple of days, my testes will flee like frightened cockroaches upward, ascending to heights not seen since the bar mitzvah that Sheldon was not attending. And while we're on the subject of testes, here's Sheldon reminiscing about the time he was examined for a rupture by their family doctor.

[Jamie Dimon]

Me and Wiley Rosen were joining the weightlifting club, so he had to be tested for a rupture. I remember he put his hand under my balls. I started laughing so hard I pissed right in his hand.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Over the years, I've seen my father in the role of husband, uncle and grandfather, but I've never really seen him in the role of younger brother. How odd to see it now at 80. He sits beside Sheldon with this expression I've never seen on his face. It's wide eyed, sweet and deferential. But as the day wears on, Sheldon and Buzz begin to squabble over their memories, fighting over every little detail.

[Buzz]

Remember the hullabaloo he had with the hair dyer? That heavyset girl?

[Jamie Dimon]

She's a manicurist.

[Buzz]

She was a hair dyer?

[Jamie Dimon]

Manicurist?

[Buzz]

No, she was a hair dyer. Here's what happened. She went over to Irving's.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

They even argue over the death of their grandmother.

[Buzz]

I found her body. I opened the door. No, my mother was across the street of Greenberg.

[Jamie Dimon]

I remember walking.

[Buzz]

I looked in on her and I.

[Jamie Dimon]

Knew she was dead.

[Buzz]

I never saw a dead body in my life, but I knew she. She was dead. Sure.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So, wait, so you Found her or you found her?

[Buzz]

I remember looking in on her room to see how she. I said it was awfully quiet.

[Jamie Dimon]

I found her, but. Let him take the.

[Buzz]

No, I'm not. It's some credit.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

The whole afternoon is like this. Every subject, even their dead grandmother, somehow becomes fodder for another pissing match. They're burning up all this time with small talk when what they need is some big talk. In particular, they need to address a story that I know holds a great deal of meaning for my father. It took place in 1939, on the day their mother left them. I've only ever heard the story from my father, never from Sheldon. I wanted to ask what you remember. What? Your perspective.

[Jamie Dimon]

All I remember that time was when Pop was smacking her around and she ran out in the hall in her.

[Buzz]

Slip, fighting in the hole.

[Jamie Dimon]

He was smacking.

[Buzz]

Smacking her around?

[Jamie Dimon]

Yeah. She ran out? Yeah.

[Buzz]

So what happened the next morning?

[Jamie Dimon]

The next morning?

[Buzz]

Yeah. Look in the closet. Her clothes were gone. She left.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

What happened after this, in my father's telling, is that his mother returned soon after. She left with a policeman in tow.

[Buzz]

And they came back to try to get you. They wanted you to come back with them.

[Jamie Dimon]

And where were you?

[Buzz]

I was there. But they were trying to drag you.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Out of the house.

[Jamie Dimon]

They weren't trying to grab you?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

No.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

No.

[Buzz]

I can stay with my father and grandmother. Mother.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

This is the point of the story for my father. It proves once and for all how his mother loved Sheldon more than she loved him. Sheldon didn't move out with her, and after a year, their mother returned, and together, Buzz and Sheldon grew up under the same roof in the same bedroom, often sleeping under the same blankets, each knowing who the mother had chosen and each having to do their best to carry on and live life with the burden of that knowledge. A couple times during the day, I ask them why they haven't spoken in so long, and they both insist, maybe out of embarrassment, that they do talk, just not often. But it isn't true. In fact, my father learned of Sheldon's wife's death many years after the fact, and then only from me. Sheldon's daughter got in touch through Facebook and we made a phone date where she caught me up on her life in Sheldon's. And a few nights later, while over at my parents for dinner, I told my father of his sister in law's death. There was a terrible look that fell across his face, one of sadness, but something else too. Maybe shock over just how far he and Sheldon had drifted. I found out about Judy, about her death.

[Jamie Dimon]

Who?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Your wife.

[Buzz]

I didn't know about it either until you told me.

[Jamie Dimon]

Yeah, didn't I tell you? No, you didn't know about it?

[Buzz]

No, we didn't know. We didn't know.

[Jamie Dimon]

She was sick about two years. Judy. Too bad. Well, when she got the diagnosis, she was already stage four. What did I know about can cited so the surgeon. So I says, well, doctor, I said, how did the surgery go? Oh, he said, it went very well, but the cancer is in her liver now also.

[Buzz]

It spread.

[Jamie Dimon]

I said, it's in her liver. I said, what? And on top of that, I'm driving home, I'm all fucked up and I'm spaced out and my driver window's open and some kids pull up alongside me and flip a lit cigarette into my car.

[Capital One Bank Guy]

Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about. In a good way. He'd also tell you this podcast is his favorite podcast too. Ah, really? Thanks. Capital One Bank Guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capital1.com Bank Capital One NA Member FDIC.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I was joking with my producer Jacob the other day, who's one of Pushkin's most valuable employees. I hired him to be my assistant years ago in the most random manner possible. I think he saw a message board posting somewhere, and I interviewed him for basically 10 minutes and said, go for it. I made a wild gamble on someone and got incredibly lucky. But let's be honest, you can't rely on getting lucky when it comes to hiring people. Lightning's not going to strike more than once. You need a system and you need tools. And that's why LinkedIn is so important. LinkedIn is more than just a job board. They help connect you with professionals you can't find anywhere else. Even people who aren't actively looking for a new job in a given month. Over 70% of LinkedIn users don't visit other leading job sites. So if you're not looking on LinkedIn, you're looking in the wrong place. Hire professionals like a professional and post your job for [e-mail] gladwell that's LinkedIn.com gladwell to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. Picture this, you're in the garage, hands covered in grease, just finished tuning up your engine with a part you found on ebay, and you realize, you know what? I could also Use some new brakes. So where do you go next? Back to ebay. You can find anything there. It's unreal. Wipers, headlights, even cold air intakes. It's all there. And you've got eBay, guaranteed fit. You order a part, and if it doesn't fit, send it back. Simple as that. Look, DIY fixes can be major. Doesn't matter if it's just maintenance or a major mod, you got it. Especially when things are guaranteed to fit. So when you dive into your next car project, start with ebay, all the parts you need at prices you'll love. Guaranteed to fit every time. EBay. Things people love.

[Jamie Dimon]

You know where I usually eat when I come in? By myself by the bar. They got a waitress there who always waits on me. She takes good care of me.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

For dinner, Sheldon takes us to a local Outback Station steakhouse. As people walk by, he provides a running commentary of an elderly couple.

[Jamie Dimon]

Don't get like that, couple. Whatever you do, it's time for the.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Execution of an overweight couple.

[Jamie Dimon]

Boy, are they fat. People are fat today.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

It's as though he's sharpening his wit, readying it for the main event. Teasing my dad about Canada.

[Jamie Dimon]

I don't know how you could take Canada when you ran.

[Buzz]

Why? We got nice neighbors.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

It's nice.

[Buzz]

It's okay. What was I gonna say?

[Jamie Dimon]

You're living in the same place for how many years?

[Buzz]

Oh, about over 35, 38 years. Something like that. I'm happy there.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Jamie Dimon]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

For my father, I know this is a touchy subject. Believing, as he always has, that Sheldon looks down on him for the dinkiness of his Canadian life and home. It's like a constant reminder of just who is second best. Later, my father will repeat Sheldon's words. You're still living in that same place, he'll say. For how many years? But just then, I watch my father clench and unclench his jaw as he does when he is brooding. I know he's trying to take the high road, trying not to ruin the evening.

[Jamie Dimon]

That's $200.30. Are they kidding?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Sheldon invites us back to his place for cookies but my father says he isn't up for it. As we walk through the restaurant parking lot to the car, my father is silent. I find myself feeling protective of him. After midnight, lying awake in our hotel, my father insisted we stay at one. I lay in bed thinking about that day in 1939 when my grandmother came back. For Sheldon. Not my father, for my father. Not only did it push him away from Sheldon, making him feel jealous and resentful. But it also cast a shadow over the rest of his life, causing him to always feel passed over. He's mellowed with age, but as a kid, I saw it come out in all kinds of ways. Always sensitive to slights, ready for a fight at the smallest perceived offense. I wonder if there's a different way for my father to see things. If there is. The only living person in this world who can help is Sheldon. When their mom left, Sheldon was 9, my father, 5. Sheldon would have understood a lot more than my father. Yesterday, Buzz and Sheldon talked like a couple of kids who used to play stickball in the old neighborhood. Today, if me and my big fat meddling yap have any sway, they'll have a chance to talk as men, as brothers even. Because if not now, when? Day two.

[Buzz]

This is a damn good cigar he sent me. Oh, Dominican Republic. They make a damn good cigar in Dominican Republic. What are you talking about?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Despite the difficulties of last night, the coin is flipped back to the good side. Sheldon offers my father a cigar. And with the cigar, some cigar talk. Some pretty foul cigar talk.

[Jamie Dimon]

We're riding on Queens Boulevard. Johnny's in the backseat with the who. He's got his naked ass up in the air and he's humping. The funny thing is, we had to stop for a light and there's a truck driver sitting in the cab. Up high. That was funny.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

If you guys missed each other.

[Jamie Dimon]

What?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Do you miss each other?

[Jamie Dimon]

You know, he asks the weirdest question. What? Is he abroad?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

No. I mean, I don't know. That's, you know. Eager to prove to my Uncle Sheldon that in spite of the fact I'm wearing my wife's travel deodorant, I am indeed not abroad. I allow them to return to more pressing matters. They're prostates.

[Jamie Dimon]

The guy says, Jesus. He says, your prostate feels like the moon craters in there. He said. I said, thank you, doctor. He was complimenting me.

[Buzz]

Jesus.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So if I could steer this away from the prostates. So my father said that it significant to. To him to have come. What do you say?

[Jamie Dimon]

I agree with whatever he said, but what about you?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Do you.

[Jamie Dimon]

I said, I agree with whatever he said. You want a written contract?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

No, no. I'm happy for that. It feels like I'm getting a taste of what growing up with Sheldon might have been like. So again, I make my move. So I have some questions just about, because the stories that I know from my father. But I'm curious what your take is, because you Were older. Do you remember what. What was going on when your mom. When your mother left originally? Like what, What, Why? And what was going on?

[Jamie Dimon]

Didn't you cover this ground before yesterday?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

But from my father's perspective, the way I understood it was always, you were the favorite. Did you. Did you feel that way? At this point, Sheldon's face suddenly softens.

[Jamie Dimon]

I always felt that I got the short end of the stick.

[Buzz]

Yeah, but you were kind of a favorite with my mom.

[Jamie Dimon]

Yeah, maybe with mom. Cause maybe temperamentally we were closer than I was with my father. My father never gave me spit. Did you ever get any money from my father?

[Buzz]

Can't remember.

[Jamie Dimon]

You never got a dime?

[Capital One Bank Guy]

No.

[Buzz]

Can't remember.

[Jamie Dimon]

You never? One time I sprained my ankle so bad.

[Buzz]

That was terrible.

[Jamie Dimon]

I laid in that bed.

[Buzz]

Man, he was.

[Jamie Dimon]

He says to me, you lazy bum. Yeah, man, he went off on me.

[Buzz]

That time he took Sheldon. Once, Sheldon happened to say the word fuck.

[Jamie Dimon]

He came in with that fucking strap swinging with the buckle.

[Buzz]

And, you know, I can understand it, leaving us a feeling of resentment and dislike.

[Jamie Dimon]

He. That was his way of communicating with us. Smack, smack.

[Buzz]

And then what a way. Yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Was he easier on you, do you think?

[Buzz]

It wasn't that easy. But he was tough on Sheldon, wasn't he?

[Jamie Dimon]

I know you were closer to him than I was. A lot of things that went on, you didn't understand really what was going on.

[Buzz]

So you had a different take.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Well, are you surprised by.

[Buzz]

But I was a kid. I didn't understand it.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

But you didn't know that Sheldon was getting it so bad.

[Buzz]

No.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

In Buzz's telling, their father was always a more or less benign, childish figure, incapable of expressing his feelings and so given to temper tantrums. For Buzz, it was their mother who was the manipulator, the woman who played the brothers off each other. But hearing Sheldon's take, it sounds like maybe their mother didn't come to take Sheldon because she loved him best, but simply because he needed more protecting from their father. For the first time during our trip, I can see my father considering Sheldon's point of view, actually taking it in. I know it's intense for him because he can't even meet Sheldon's eyes. Instead, he looks at me, addresses his comments to me.

[Buzz]

You know, it's sad that my father had such a negative impact on him, you know, just awful because he had so much going for him. He was a wonderful son. He worked hard. He was a good boy. He went to school.

[Jamie Dimon]

You're talking like I'm a Failure in life.

[Buzz]

No, you weren't a failure. That's the thing that I'm saying. You weren't a failure. But all I'm saying is that emotionally he left an impact on you.

[Jamie Dimon]

It took a long time for me to. To get out of that emotion. And now I'm at peace with myself. I can talk about him and laugh about it. Now I want peace, quiet. I'm happy living by myself.

[Buzz]

Are you lonely, Sheldon?

[Jamie Dimon]

No.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

No. The last time my father saw my grandfather in full health, my dad was visiting from Canada. My grandfather asked my father to drive him to the cemetery to visit his parents grave. And once there, my grandfather wept inconsolably. Later that day he would succumb to a stroke and shortly after be moved to a nursing home. With Sheldon being more local, the burden of my grandfather's career fell mainly to Sheldon. It seems like a lot of the family's burdens fell to Sheldon.

[Buzz]

They put a lot of the responsibility on him that my dad should have been taking that responsibility and he shouldered that.

[Jamie Dimon]

Who was going to take care of you? Who's going to take you to school, meet you? I remember one time I was late or something. You stood outside that school, you were crying.

[Buzz]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Jamie Dimon]

I said, muzzy, I'm here, I'm here.

[Buzz]

He was good to me.

[Jamie Dimon]

Times I was mean to you.

[Buzz]

Yeah, mean, you know, used to, you were. My older brother used to knock the out of me sometimes. But you know, that's the way it is with, with brothers.

[Jamie Dimon]

Well, yeah, I was good in some way. Some ways I was mean.

[Buzz]

Who was, who was not, who is not, who is not.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So if you feel like you were compelled to see each other now because you knew that, you know, it's now or never kind of thing, then it means that it was important to you both, right? To see each other.

[Jamie Dimon]

You want to take that?

[Buzz]

Sure.

[Jamie Dimon]

Yes.

[Buzz]

Easy answer. Yes.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yes.

[Buzz]

Because we're not getting any younger. What's, what's down the road? I'm 80, he's 85. I mean, because there was a lot of water under the bridge and we want to close that bridge now. I want to feel easy now. I want to say, now he's going to be 86. I want to call him on his birthday and say happy birthday to him. Now I'm not going to stand any fucking ceremonies anymore.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

As my father speaks, as per his brother's example, dropping F bombs like he's in a Guy Ritchie film, Sheldon keeps his arms crossed and his eyes shut tight. He's quiet for several seconds and then he reaches out to pet his cat.

[Jamie Dimon]

Should I leave you the cat?

[Buzz]

In my will, if anything happens, if anything out. I'll take care of the cat. I'll take care of the cat. I'm happy I came to see you. That I am.

[Jamie Dimon]

I'm happy you came here. That's good. Very good. Bobby. You want to buy a house? That one is for sale.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

When it's time to leave, Sheldon walks us outside. But before we get into the rental, he points across the lawn to his neighbor's house. He tells my father that it's for sale. And then he tells him the asking price. And my father says, that doesn't sound bad at all. And Sheldon says that what with Canada being so bloody cold, my father should consider moving to Florida. And my father says maybe he will. They don't get too emotional. They don't even hug goodbye. They just shake hands. And with that, it feels like Buzz has forgiven Sheldon. And Sheldon has forgiven Buzz.

[Buzz]

All right, you take care.

[Jamie Dimon]

Water under the bridge. Take care. Take care. You, too.

[Buzz]

Okay.

[Jamie Dimon]

Safe trip, both of you. Thank you.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Jamie Dimon]

Thank you.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

We'll speak. We'll speak. Turn right on Northwest Bedford Drive.

[Buzz]

Oh, my God. I feel so different now. You know that this is taking a lot off my shoulders, you know?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

As we ride to the airport, my father says that the thought of Sheldon all alone in that house with just a cat makes him sad. Do you really think he isn't lonely? My father asks. I assure him that Sheldon seems okay with being alone. But my father doesn't seem so sure. After all these years, the burden of having lost his brother has been replaced by a new burden, one that might be heavier to bear.

[Buzz]

Now that the.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Furniture is returning to its goodwill home, now that the last month's rent is scheming with the damaged deposit, take this moment to decide if we meant it, if we tried or felt around for far too much. From Things that Accidentally Turned Heavyweight is hosted and produced by me, Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was also produced by Wendy Dore, Chris Neary and Kahlilah Holt. Editing by Alex Bloomberg and Peter Clowney. Special thanks to Caitlin Kenny, Starlie Kyne, and Rachel Ward. The show is mixed by Haley Shaw. Music in this episode by Christine Fellows, with additional music and ad music by Haley Shaw. Our theme song is by the Weaker Thans, courtesy of Epitaph Records. A version of the story appears on this American Life. And we had a lot of help from the folks there. Ira Glass, Julie Snyder, Jonathan Menhivar, Sean Cole, and Robin Semion. A very special thanks to Emily Condon. Follow us on Twitter at heavyweight. We'll have a new episode next week.

[Jamie Dimon]

We used to call him Mitchy. Little Bitchy.

[Buzz]

Yeah. Remember the older brother, the oldest one? He was comical.

[Jamie Dimon]

Hey, we're lucky we turned out as good as we did.