Why Would I Do That to Jennifer Lopez? | The Mistakes Series

Summary

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Episode Summary — Revisionist History

Why Would I Do That to Jennifer Lopez? | The Mistakes Series

April 30, 2026 | Host: Malcolm Gladwell

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Episode Overview

In this installment of Revisionist History, Malcolm Gladwell explores the anatomy of a mistake, not from the perspective of the mistake-maker alone, but through the ripples it causes among those around them—the witnesses, the bystanders, even the enablers. Using Irv Gotti’s notorious fallout with Jennifer Lopez as the central story, Gladwell interrogates how one moment’s outburst can unravel years of trust and creative partnership, and questions whether blame is ever as clear—or as justified—as we think. This is the third episode of The Mistakes Series, inspired by Michael Linton and Josh Steiner’s book From Mistakes to Meaning.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Genesis of a Hit – and a Friendship (02:12–04:45)

• Tommy Mottola Calls Irv Gotti

  • Mottola, then head of Sony Music, requested Gotti to remix “I’m Real” with Ja Rule and Jennifer Lopez (JLo), promising, “You could do whatever the fuck you want as long as it’s a duet” (Irv Gotti, 02:26).

• Creative Spark and Studio Culture

  • Gotti describes the legendary sessions: “I had like, 30 hood niggas in the studio, and in walks JLo ... But she was the total opposite [of bougie], she worked the whole room” (Irv Gotti, 07:12).
  • Their musical collaborations ("I’m Real" and "Ain't It Funny") become chart-topping hits, and Gotti is riding high. “I could do no wrong” (Irv Gotti, 04:28).

• Budding Partnership

  • Gotti is told by JLo's manager: “You’re gonna be like the Quincy Jones to her Michael Jackson ... we’re not doing nothing musically unless you’re involved” (07:54).

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The Cataclysmic Mistake – The Elle Magazine Interview (08:37–13:28)

• The Interview That Changed Everything

  • During an Elle magazine cover story (“JLo on fashion, that song, and Puffy”), Gotti is asked if "Ain’t It Funny" is about Puffy Combs. JLo denies it; Gotti contradicts her, saying, “Oh, it’s absolutely about Puffy. And JLo knows it” (Malcolm Gladwell, 09:38).
  • He brags about “effing with Puffy” in the song and says he played it for Puffy himself in L.A.: “I pull up and Puff’s out there ... I say, puff, come listen to the new record I did with your old bitch ... He jumps out of the car screaming, ‘Gotti, you bastard’” (Malcolm Gladwell quoting Gotti, 09:58).

• Escalation and Irrevocable Damage

  • “I was like, what did you do to your friend? ... It ruined my relationship with JLo ... I apologized ... I was high. That’s no excuse ... I totally ruined it” (Irv Gotti, 12:22, 13:31).

• Gotti’s Reflection

  • “She was my friend. And why would I do that ... with the biggest star and most beautiful person? Why would I do that with JLo?” (Irv Gotti, 13:31).

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The Root Cause – Context and Anger (14:01–19:17)

• The Catalyst: A Racist Incident Just Before the Interview

  • Minutes before the Elle call, Gotti gets off a rage-inducing call with a white label executive who used a racial slur. Gotti is furious, “He said, ‘I told that fat nigger not to put this out,’ but when he said the N-word, oh, that’s when I ... went crazy” (Irv Gotti, 15:17).

• Lashing Out at the Nearest Target

  • “It was as soon as I hung up, the phone rang with Elle magazine ... Hung up, Yo, the Zell magazine. Yeah. What the y’all want?” (Irv Gotti, 17:59).

• No Cool-Off, Just Consequence

  • “Within that five minutes ... it was going to get the exact same vibe. What the fuck you want? ... And I was like, what? That bitch is lying” (Irv Gotti, 18:29, 18:38).

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The Aftermath – Realization, Responsibility, and Regret (19:45–24:51)

• Slow Realization

  • “I didn’t realize quickly ... It hit me when they sent me, like, the transcripts of what they was going to print ... I was like, don’t print that. But they was like, it’s too late” (Irv Gotti, 19:49, 20:17).

• Questions of Blame

  • On stage at 92nd Street Y, Gladwell and the authors debate: Who is truly to blame? "There is no villain in the story ... these things are deep rooted in ourselves, and we're not villainous ... This is an opportunity to explore oneself and come to terms and acceptance of the fact that we're flawed" (Michael Linton, 21:39).

• Another Perspective: Press Ethics

  • “If you are the reporter in that instance and someone says something they shouldn't say, your obligation is to say, wait, why did you say that? ... And if they can't give you a satisfactory answer, your obligation is not to use it ... that's malpractice” (Josh Steiner, 23:56).

• Gladwell’s Own Turn for Self-Reflection

  • Gladwell realizes he called the reporter a villain without knowing the full story, a mirror to the very subject of the episode: “I realized I don't even know who this person is. And then I thought to myself, oops, now I've made a mistake” (Malcolm Gladwell, 24:51).

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Revisiting the Reporter: Carter Harris’ View (25:58–31:45)

• Carter Harris’ Memory

  • “I remember being in a car with Benny Medina in Los Angeles ... He was telling me how disappointed JLo was ... It seemed like a negative interview. I wasn’t negative at all from my perspective” (Carter Harris, 26:23).

• On Publishing the Interview

  • “No ... what I thought was in the moment was, wow, that was honest ... I never imagined that it would be such a big deal ... If he had called me and said I was in a state, can you take those quotes out? Yeah, I probably would have worked with him on that. But I never got that call” (Carter Harris, 27:29, 29:20).

• Years Later – Guilt and Learning

  • “Oh, absolutely. That made me feel very strange ... I don’t take any joy in being a part of anyone’s biggest regret” (Carter Harris, 28:46, 29:41).
  • “If I’ve learned anything, it’s that I have to check myself sometimes and say, wait a minute, I’m human like everybody else ... maybe I should look into this a little bit more” (Carter Harris, 30:41).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Music Industry Triumph:

  • “Those records was colossal ... I was like on top of the world. It was a feeling of invincibility” — Irv Gotti (03:56)

• On the Fallout:

  • “That was the worst mistake I ever made in my life ... she was my friend. Why would I do that?” — Irv Gotti (11:25)

• On Press Responsibility:

  • “You're not a stenographer. You've entered for the duration of the interview into an intimate relationship. And intimate relationships have rules.” — Malcolm Gladwell (24:51)

• On Mistakes and Learning:

  • “We all do this in our own way, in lots of different contexts. We jump to conclusions, mistaken conclusions. And I certainly do in my life. And if I’ve learned anything, it’s that I have to check myself sometimes and say, wait a minute, I’m human like everybody else.” — Carter Harris (30:41)

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Key Segment Timestamps

• [02:12] — Irv Gotti recounts Tommy Mottola’s call and creative process with JLo
• [07:12] — Gotti’s studio culture and first impressions of JLo
• [09:38] — The Elle interview and Gotti’s explosive quotes
• [13:31] — Gotti’s deep regret and repeated apologies
• [15:17] — The triggering racist phone call prior to his Elle outburst
• [18:29] — Gotti describes lashing out at the Elle reporter
• [19:49] — The delayed realization and attempts to fix the mistake
• [21:39] — Debate: Who is the villain?
• [23:35] — Discussion of journalistic ethics and obligation to interviewees
• [26:23] — Carter Harris recalls the interview and reactions
• [30:41] — Reflections on human fallibility and the need to “check ourselves”

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Conclusion

This episode weaves together the urgency of a single moment with the slow-burn of regret, looking not just at Irv Gotti’s infamous spat with JLo, but also at how context, emotion, and bystander responsibility frame every mistake. Gladwell ultimately leaves listeners with a challenge: to recognize the complexity of mistakes, to offer grace, and to be ever more careful before passing judgment—on others, and ourselves.

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Transcript

[Malcolm Gladwell]

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[Irv Gotti]

This guy calls me like seven in the morning. I'm like, Tommy, what's up?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

In 2001, the head of Sony Music, Tommy Mottola, called the rap producer Irv Gotti. At the time, Gotti worked with Jay Z, Ja Rule, Ashanti, dmx. In the hip hop world of the early aughts, he was at the top of his game.

[Irv Gotti]

He's like, yo, I need you to make a record. And I said, what? He said, make a record with J. Lo and put Ja on it and make it a duet. And I say, yo, I need total creative autonomy. I'm doing whatever the fuck I want. Tommy was like, you could do whatever the fuck you want as long as it's a duet with ja Rule and JLo.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Mottola wanted Gotti to do a remix of I'm Real, a single off JLo's second album, the first Time Around. It had been a generic ballad. Mottola thought it could be reinvigorated. Gotti went to work and started to make a demo with Ja Rule and Ashanti.

[Irv Gotti]

I said, yo, I got the record. It's I'm Real. Him and his wife Talia come to the Crackhouse, my studio in Soho. And it's funny because the freight elevator used to always go out. So him and Talia walked up six flights of stairs. He gets upstairs. He said, this fucking record better be fucking good. So I play. I. I play real form. Him and his wife go crazy. They're like, oh, my God, it was a one listen. They listened and it was like, it's the biggest record. So he puts me on a private jet, I fly to LA, record the record with JLo. Next thing you know, the record comes out, it's all over the radio. I'm talking about maybe a couple days after we recorded it. It's all over the radio.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

A few months later, Gotti made another remix from JLo's album, Ain't It Funny. The same thing happened.

[Irv Gotti]

You don't even understand. Those records was colossal. Not just in the States, on the planet Earth. I don't give a fuck if you went to Germany, Australia, Africa. That shit was in heavy rotation. Look, those was the two biggest records. And for me to do I'm Real and instead Fuck it and did Ain't It Funny. It was like at that point in my life, I was like on top of the world. It was a feeling of invincibility. It was a feeling of I could do whatever the fuck I want

[Josh Steiner]

to

[Irv Gotti]

portray who I was at that moment. That's who I was. I'm from the hood. I'm making all of this money. I'm producing records for everybody. All of them are working and going number one, and money's raining from the sky. I could do no wrong.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

It was at this point that Irv Gotti made a mistake. My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This is the third episode in our miniseries inspired by Michael Linton and Josh Steiner's book From Mistakes to Meaning, where the authors sit down with a wide range of people and try to make sense of their biggest screw ups. One of their interviews was with Irv Gotti, just before Gotti had a stroke and died at the age of 54. I listened to the interview, and I found his story so moving that I asked Steiner and Linton if I could include it in this series. Because in his story, I think is a really important lesson. Not about the person who makes the mistake, but about the people around the person who makes the mistake. The witnesses,

[Irv Gotti]

Man, I grew up. Oh, man. I grew up. Let me describe how I grew up. I'm the youngest of eight kids.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

This is Gotti talking to Linton and Steiner about his childhood and growing up in Queens.

[Irv Gotti]

We have no money. We live in the home. I sleep in the attic. You ever slept in the attic of a house in the summertime? There's no refuge. It's a hundred and change. You wake up every. Every day. You wake up in a puddle of sweat like I had. That was my life. That's. It was a lot of love. My family, the most loving family, but we had nothing. So when you talk about the shit you told me, I'm not. I don't give a fuck. Yo, I'm getting money. Oh, I'm gonna. I'm gonna get it. I'm gonna work my ass off and get it. I don't give a fuck what comes from it.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

He was blunt, reckless, ambitious, and hugely talented. His rise in the music world was swift. It was no accident that Mottola called Gotti to work with Jennifer Lopez, then well on her way to becoming one of the biggest celebrities in America. And when the two of them met at Gotti's recording studio. Gotti from Queens, JLo from the Bronx. The Click. Just so you know what to expect, we're giving you the unfiltered Gotti.

[Irv Gotti]

So I had, like, 30 hood niggas in the studio, and in walks JLo, and she was straight Jenny from the block. She had on some sweatpants and a tank top. And if I tell you she got in that studio and she had every one of my guys fall in love with her. She worked and talked to everybody, and I was just like, yo, she's just so dope, you know what I'm saying? Because she could have been on some I'm a big star bougie shit, but she was the total opposite. The. The biggest sex symbol, biggest superstar. Got on some sweatpants. Her ass was looking phenomenal. She worked. She literally worked the whole room. Like, when she left, every guy was like, yo, she dope. I think she liked me. I'm like, yo, dog, She's. She worked us, yo. She. She worked the room. But I thought it was so dope of her and me and her specifically, yo, we hit it off, bidding Medina. Her manager, Benny Medina was like, irv, you're gonna be like the Quincy Jones to her. Michael Jackson. He was like, we're not doing nothing musically unless you're involved.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

A year later, Elle magazine decided to do a cover story on Jennifer Lopez. It was for their Sex and body issue, June 2002, headlined big letters, JLo on fashion, that song, and Puffy. Puffy referred to Puffy Combs, the infamous rap impresario who she'd just broken up with. And that song referred to Ain't It Funny because Gotti's reinterpretation of the song turned it into the story of someone coming out of a very problematic relationship. The writer asks her, is that song about Puffy? She says, no, it's not. Then the reporter calls Gotti. Jlo says, ain't It Funny isn't about Puffy. What do you say? And Gotti says, oh, it's absolutely about Buffy. And JLo knows it. Here's the exact quote from the Elle magazine article, which by the way, is nearly impossible to find. Now. My producer had to get someone at the New York Public Library to unearth the issue from an off site storage unit. I ain't gonna lie, we was thinking of effing with Puffy. Cause that's what the world wants to hear. And Gotti tells the reporter a story about running into Puffy before Ain't It Funny came out and playing him the demo. He says, you know the Four Seasons on Doheny in la? I pull up and Puff's out there with his security. And I say, puff, come listen to the new record I did with your old bitch. So boom, he gets in the car. So I'm blasting the record, and when it gets to the second verse, he jumps out of the car screaming, got it, you bastard. This is the second verse, Listen. He calls Jlo's ex boyfriend into his car and, and says, come listen to the new record I just did with your old bitch. In a very public way, Gotti was essentially saying Jennifer Lopez wasn't being honest. He called her credibility into question.

[Irv Gotti]

When I read it in Elle magazine, Jlo quote, those records are not about Puff Daddy. End quote. It was, this is the worst mistake I've ever made in my life because I say that to say, because Jlo, Benny, Medina, they was friends. They loved me. They loved me like I was a rider for them. And I would do things for them that probably no one else could do. And I would get done for them.

[Josh Steiner]

And

[Irv Gotti]

she was my friend. Like, why the would I say that? Why the would I say that?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

But Gotti didn't stop there. He kept going, right?

[Irv Gotti]

So I went on to say other damaging things. Like, how would she know? She didn't write the records. We made the records and wrote the records. She just did what we Said, so she don't know who the fuck we was talking about. And, yeah, we was talking about Diddy. And then I said some more damaging. I was like, guys like me, we didn't listen to J. We don't listen to JLo's music. I made guys like me listen to J. Lo's music. I said, before. Then we just hit the mute button and looked at her ass. Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Gotti reflected on this with Michael Linton and Josh Steiner when they spoke.

[Irv Gotti]

Wow, you could pull all this up in the. Elle magazine. Is there. Those are vivid quotes. Those are, like, supreme quotes. That wasn't warranted. And when I look back, I was like, what did you do to your friend? So needless to say, it ruined my. My relationship with jlo. I apologized. I sent her candy and flowers and apologized a million times, and I was high. That's no excuse. You know what I'm saying? I apologize, and she accepted my apology. But it forever damaged your relationship. Right. You know, superstars like JLo, they have a small circle of people who they could trust. And I think I was in there for a second. Yeah. And I totally ruined it. Right. So I'm an.

[Michael Linton]

Well, you were in that moment.

[Irv Gotti]

I'm totally in the wrong, and I'm a complete idiot. Make sure you say that. That I said that. I'm a complete idiot. She didn't warrant that. She didn't warrant nothing that I said. She was my friend. And why would I do that with the biggest star and most beautiful person? Why would I do that with JLo?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

You. One of the themes we've tried to explore in this series is that mistakes have roots. They aren't random events. They come from somewhere. They arise out of a context. But the context often isn't obvious, not to those around the mistake maker, and often not even to the mistake maker themselves. In Gotti's case, the context was a telephone call he'd been on just before the reporter called. It was with a prominent music industry executive. Gotti asked that the man's name not be used. So we're going to bleep out every mention of his name. All you need to know is that the executive is white and Gotti was black. The two of them had an argument. One of Gotti's artists had played a part in a hit song and was in the music video, but had been left out of the radio version. And Gotti was unhappy about it.

[Irv Gotti]

So I was like, yo, you killing my artist. You got him on the video, but on radio he's not there. It's sending like mixed signals. Why are you hurting me?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Their argument got heated. The executive said it wasn't his fault. The decision was someone else's. At his label, a black man.

[Irv Gotti]

He was like, I told that fat nigger not to, not to put this out. But when he said the N word, oh, that's when I, I went crazy.

[Michael Linton]

Wow.

[Irv Gotti]

What the you say? I said, you just called Corey Rune in. I said, when this, when this see you, I'm gonna you up. I said, how about that? And he was like, irvin. And we arguing.

[Josh Steiner]

Yeah.

[Irv Gotti]

But he said he's, he used the N word on some racist shit. He said, I told that fat not to put the record out or put him on it. Yeah, but when he said nigga, I went, that's, that's, that's the anger.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yep.

[Irv Gotti]

I'm not a volatile person. I'm not a pop off. I've, I, I would describe myself as a cool guy, level headed. But it's something about when a white person like uses the word to me, oh, I'm ready to kill. Because it's like you start thinking of all of the up that black people been through and you got the audacity to say in front of me, oh, I'm gonna show you a now. You know what I'm saying? Like, I used to always say, like, if people would ask me, how, how would you be able, how did, how would you think you would be able to operate in those times of racism? And I always answer, I would die. You know that? Because, yeah, I couldn't take the racism that would have been bestowed upon me. I would have killed me a couple white people and they would have hung me and killed me and my life would be over. I couldn't take them doing something to my mother or, you know, hanging my father. And I'm living life. Nah, you're gonna have to kill me too. So these are the thoughts that's in my mind. Yeah. Have you experienced that before where you had white people say things which you thought a lot of my white friends say, yo, that's my nigga. But I'm not mad at that. Yeah, use it when they say that's my, it's N, I G, G A. He said, yo, I told that fat, that's N I, G, G, E, R. It's a big, big difference. Like, I couldn't, I couldn't believe that he just used the N word to me. That's what made me so volatile. And it was so weird. It was like as soon as I Hung up with the phone, rang with L. It wasn't like a five minute. It wasn't even like a five minute cool off period. No. Hung up. Yo, the Zell magazine. Yeah. What the y' all want?

[Carter Harris]

They're like saying hello.

[Irv Gotti]

A little different. Can I ask?

[Josh Steiner]

So what do you think it was that made you. You think you were just gonna lash out at anybody who showed up in that moment?

[Irv Gotti]

Yeah. Within that five minutes. Yeah. It was going to get the exact same vibe. What the fuck you want?

[Michael Linton]

Yeah.

[Irv Gotti]

It just so happened. It was Elle magazine, not one of my boys. Yeah. So I said, what the fuck you want? And he was like, oh, I see. Like, as soon as he heard that response, he immediately cut to the chase. He said, oh, I'll just get right to it, you know, JLo said that the records I'm Real and Ain't It Funny are not about Puff Daddy, her ex boyfriend. And I was like, what? That bitch is lying.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

This was Irv Gotti's mistake. It changed his life. There was a version of the next 20 years where he could have been a creative partner with one of the biggest stars in the world. He had ideas for movies, collaborations. JLo was a once in a lifetime opportunity. That's why this was a mistake. It had consequences. But there was a point in Gotti's interview with Steiner and Linton that I couldn't get out of my mind. Listen,

[Michael Linton]

how quickly did you realize that you'd made a mistake?

[Irv Gotti]

I didn't realize quickly. I was so angry and mad when I got off the phone with Elle magazine, I thought nothing of hit me. When they sent me, like, the transcripts of what they was going to print. How long after that was that? A week or so, I would say. And when you read that, did you

[Michael Linton]

realize it right away?

[Irv Gotti]

Yeah, I was like, don't print that. But they was like, it's too. But they was like, it's too late. Yeah, they loved it. They loved it and they said it was too late. You know, I was trying to get them not to print it, but they wasn't. They like, hey, buddy, you said it.

[Michael Linton]

Yeah, you get it? Try to. Did you get any help to try to get them not to do it, or did you just let it go?

[Irv Gotti]

I let it go. I gave it my effort, but after my effort, I just let it go.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

He realized he'd made a mistake. That in his anger at one person, he had said something he didn't mean to another. And when he tried to prevent his mistake from having consequences, from turning into A serious mistake. He was told, hey, buddy, you said it. It's too late. After Linton and Steiner's book came out, I interviewed them on Stage at the 92nd Street Y in New York, and I brought up their chapter on Gotti. So who's the villain of the story?

[Michael Linton]

Not every story has to have a villain.

[Josh Steiner]

No, but tell me who the villain

[Malcolm Gladwell]

of the story is.

[Irv Gotti]

So don't.

[Michael Linton]

Michael, don't fall for this. Like, this is.

[Irv Gotti]

Okay. This is.

[Carter Harris]

Look at.

[Michael Linton]

This is why he's so good.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Wow.

[Irv Gotti]

But don't fall for his trap.

[Michael Linton]

Like, okay, you can say not every single.

[Josh Steiner]

Well, I got to keep the conversation going. I would argue it was the executive who used the N word.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Josh, who's the villain of the story?

[Michael Linton]

Here's what I think. That guy acted terribly. There is no villain in the story. And I think an important piece of what we tried to describe is that there isn't always a villain. There isn't always some outside danger. There isn't always some consequence that has been derived from. From a villain. That these things are deep rooted in ourselves, and we're not villainous. And so that aspect of our personality doesn't make us bad. This isn't a morality test. This is an opportunity to explore oneself and come to terms and acceptance of the fact that we're flawed. And the way to get hopefully healthier and better is to talk about it.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Who do you think the villain is?

[Josh Steiner]

A man who has a very close

[Malcolm Gladwell]

relationship to the biggest rock star in

[Josh Steiner]

the world, a relationship that has resulted in extraordinary commercial success, is called by a reporter and is asked a question about that relationship. And in the course of answering that question, the man says, oh, she's a liar. Who's the villain in the story?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

You think it's Irv?

[Irv Gotti]

No, no.

[Josh Steiner]

It's the reporter. But the reporter doesn't. No, no, no, no. This is a crucial, crucial point, Michael. And I think this is because it's about when mistakes are made and they are as deeply rooted as you suggest they are. They're not what you're. The whole argument of the book is a mistake can come out in the spur of the moment, but it's not something that's coming out in the spur of the moment. It's something that has roots.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Right.

[Josh Steiner]

And what does that require of those who observe and are part of the process in which the mistake is played out. It requires some degree of grace and forgiveness and understanding.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yep.

[Josh Steiner]

So the reporter hears some Irv Gotti say something that is completely out of place. Right it makes the reason, the reason. That story. So that story,

[Malcolm Gladwell]

what is an important detail is here is.

[Josh Steiner]

It goes. It's all across the country. It's like, it's huge. That's why it blows up so much. Everyone seizes on this. Her longtime collaborator called JLO a liar. Right. If you are the reporter in that instance and someone says something they shouldn't say, your obligation is to say, wait,

[Malcolm Gladwell]

why did you say that?

[Josh Steiner]

And if they can't give you a satisfactory answer, your obligation is not to use it. I'm sorry, it's not to use it. You're not. You, you shouldn't. You can't make someone, the reporter, turn that from a nothing into a destruction of someone's career because they had not the slightest concern for his well being or his reputation. And if they had an ounce of self understanding or of general understanding, they would have understood that he didn't mean to say that. They should at the very least have said, did you mean to say that? Right. That's your responsibility. And the reporter failed in that fundamental. Why do people hate the press? Because. Because in an interview like this where we could talk for three hours and you say one thing out of place because you happen to be irritated about something else and the reporter runs with that one thing, that's malpractice. Why is this person getting a pass? That's terrible. I'm sorry. I'm really upset about this.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I was upset about this because you can't do this if you're a journalist. The whole profession works on an implied contract. Somebody grants you the gift of their time and attention and thoughts. They make themselves vulnerable. And in return, you pledge to respect that vulnerability. You're not a stenographer. You've entered for the duration of the interview into an intimate relationship. And intimate relationships have rules. But then I went home after that interview at the Y, after I had called the reporter a villain and a disgrace to our profession. And I realized I don't even know who this person is. And then I thought to myself, oops, now I've made a mistake. So I decided to track the reporter down. That's after the break. What do you remember about that interview?

[Carter Harris]

It's funny you're asking this something that no one's ever asked me because I remember that interview quite well for a few reasons.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

This is Carter Harris. He wrote the L profile. He's now a screenwriter, teaches at NYU. And one of the reasons this article he wrote 25 years ago sticks out is the reaction it got, particularly from JLo. And her manager, Benny Medina.

[Carter Harris]

I actually remember being in a car with Benny Medina in Los Angeles, and I can't remember why we were in a car, but he was telling me how disappointed JLO was, and he was, because it seemed like a negative interview. I wasn't negative at all, from my perspective.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

At some point, his profile of JLO completely disappeared from the Internet, and he always wondered if JLO and her manager had something to do with it. Was Gotti upset during the call? Yes, he was. Harris remembers he seemed like he was in a state. He mentioned something about having just gotten off the phone with someone. He thought Harris was a fashion writer. And Gotti seemed relieved to learn that Harris had been an editor at the Source, the magazine that was the bible of rap at the time. They talked about Puffy Combs and I'm Real and Ain't It Funny. And then Gotti said that bit about JLO not telling the truth. When you, when you heard it, when you were interviewing him and, and decided to use what you were using, did

[Josh Steiner]

you, did you think that you might

[Malcolm Gladwell]

be jeopardizing his relationship with JLo?

[Carter Harris]

No. And maybe that was naive of me, but what I thought was in the moment was, wow, that was honest. Sure, she might be a little bit irked, vexed by one or two of the quotes, but I never imagined that it would be such a big deal for her or for him. I mean, I, I, I thought she'd be vexed. I mean, when you say, you know, I gave her more hood credibility, that's going to be like, come on, dude. Or when you say it was really about Diddy and basically you're, you're accusing her of not being honest, you know? Yeah, that, that I, I totally understand why she was vexed. And I, even at the time, I was like, oh, she might be a little ticked off about this, but I figured they'd, they'd air it out either publicly or privately, that she'd be like, come on, he overstepped on this one. And then maybe he comes back and says, yeah, all right, I was on Molly, which he was willing to say back then.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Is it weird to hear someone say 25 years later the biggest mistake they made in their life was something they said to you in an interview?

[Carter Harris]

Oh, absolutely. That made me feel very strange. When I heard that, I was, I was, I was, I, I was very surprised and, and very, I was a little disturbed, too, because when I heard that then I did have feelings, then I was like, oh, what did I do wrong? You know, it Was like, was I responsible for this somehow?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Did he run the quotes by Gotti and tell him that it was too late? You said it. No, that would have been the fact checker. That's the way things worked in the magazine world of those years.

[Carter Harris]

If he had called me and said I was in a state, can you take those quotes out? Yeah, I probably would have worked with him on that. But I never got that call. Nobody ever asked me about those quotes. So, you know, what can I really do? But, yeah, I certainly felt weird about it.

[Irv Gotti]

I mean,

[Carter Harris]

I don't take any joy in being a part of anyone's biggest regret.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Carter was frank and thoughtful. I liked him. He was talking about a decision he made many years ago when he was much younger, and he said that he wouldn't necessarily do the same thing today. I understand that you have to make a certain number of mistakes to understand what a mistake is.

[Carter Harris]

It's really interesting because if. If I had been in the gym and somebody had told me this story and I was not the reporter and I was not Gotti, I probably would have had the exact same response. I'm. I'm pretty sure I would have been like, what? They said what? They messed with Gotti, like, and they screwed up a relationship with JLo and Gotti. You know, this is bullshit. This is like the media, you know, they do this, especially Elle and these corporate magazines and, you know, all that.

[Josh Steiner]

So.

[Carter Harris]

So I. I'm not surprised to hear that that was your response. That probably would have been my response. But to the larger point, I think we all do this in our own way, in lots of different contexts. We jump to conclusions, mistaken conclusions. And I certainly do in my life. And if I've learned anything, it's that I have to check myself sometimes and say, wait a minute, I'm human like everybody else. I'm jumping to a conclusion. I should go look and see if there's more to this story. Doesn't necessarily mean my conclusion that I wanted to jump to is wrong. Could be right, could be worse than I thought it was. But I do think that that's the thing to take from this, is like, hey, everybody, each of us can check ourselves. You know, we all have the ability to check ourselves and say, hey, maybe I should look into this a little bit more.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

We can all check ourselves a little bit more. On that, I have to agree. Revisionist History is produced by Nina Bird Lawrence, Lucy Sullivan and Ben Nadaff Haffrey. Our editor is Karen Shakurji. Fact Checking by Angeli Mercado Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Engineering by Nina Byrd Lawrence. Original music by Luis Guerra. Sound design and mastering by Marcelo d'. Oliveira. I'm Malcolm Gladwell. Coming up on the next episode in our Mistakes series.

[Irv Gotti]

This is madness.

[Carter Harris]

And, yeah, and it was just jaw on the floor.

[Michael Linton]

I. I just never experienced anything like that, and I didn't see it coming.