Zootopia Exposed! (Part One)

Summary

Revisionist History: “Zootopia Exposed! (Part One)” (March 5, 2026)

Overview

In this episode of Revisionist History, Malcolm Gladwell embarks on a journey to unravel what he calls "the strangest Hollywood story you have ever heard." The episode dives into the complex, enigmatic, and perhaps conspiratorial saga behind Disney’s Zootopia and its sequel, focusing on the claims of screenwriter Gary Goldman, who alleges Disney stole his idea and then—bizarrely—encoded his story, and even aspects of his identity, in Zootopia 2. Gladwell, joined by narrative expert Angus Fletcher and Goldman himself, explores the labyrinth of intellectual property, coincidence, and the sometimes surreal relationship between life and art in contemporary Hollywood.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Malcolm’s Assignment: The Zootopia 2 Viewing

• [03:17] Gladwell recounts taking his young daughter to Manhattan’s Upper West Side to watch Zootopia 2, explaining he was “on assignment.”
• The episode promises a mind-bending story needing two parts to unpack fully, suggesting listeners will be left incredulous by Hollywood’s convoluted workings.

The Origins of Zootopia – Gary Goldman’s Story

• [05:24] Angus Fletcher introduces Gary Goldman, a prolific Hollywood screenwriter.
• Goldman claims he conceived “Zootopia” in 2000 as a children’s project, wanting a story for his young sons.
  • He says he anxiously kept the title secret because “it’s very hard to protect a title.” ([09:10])
• [10:20] In 2009, while working with Disney, Goldman pitches an eight-page outline (originally titled “Loony”) about an animal world called Zootopia, featuring two main animal characters—Roscoe the cynical hyena and Mimi the optimistic squirrel—who are clear analogues to Disney’s later Nick Wilde and Judy Hopps.
• [10:58] Angus: “You have the writer of Total Recall... telling you that Total Recall is nothing compared to Zootopia. That should give you some indication.”
• Goldman’s vision: A satirical take on the American cliché, “You can be anything you want.”
  • [12:22] Gary: “That’s really kind of magical thinking masquerading as good advice.”

The Legal Drama – Claiming Theft, Getting Shut Down

• [13:36] Goldman recounts submitting his pitch to a Disney executive and only hearing later, via his agent, that Disney had “passed.”
• Many years later, his sons inform him of a Zootopia movie coming out, featuring characters and story beats eerily reminiscent of his pitch.
  • [13:56] Goldman: “He says, yeah, it’s a giant billboard and it’s got your characters on it...”
• Goldman secures heavyweight law firm Quinn Emanuel, who pursue the case for seven years, but he loses at every level:
  • [15:29] “...the courts find that the similarities... didn’t look like copyright infringement.... you can steal someone’s idea without copying it word for word.”

The Sequel – Gary the Snake and the Allegory

• [19:32] As the sequel Zootopia 2 is being developed, the legal wrangling is still underway. The film introduces a key new character: Gary the Snake.
• [19:46] Angus: “Oh, it’s really interesting because the main character in the sequel to Zootopia is called Gary the Snake.”
  • Gary immediately interprets the character as a personal attack, believing it to be modeled on him. ([20:04])

The Goldman Family’s Reaction

• [20:47] Gary states his younger son breaks a door hinge in a rage after one of the legal losses.
• The family attends a showing together in Dublin, CA:
  • [21:54] “My wife says, he looks like you. I said, what are you talking about? The snake looks like me. She says, yeah, don’t you see?...”
• Goldman’s lawyer, Deborah Drewes, agrees:
  • [23:43] “The snake kind of looks Jewish.” Malcolm responds, “Yes, the snake looks Jewish 100%.” The mannerisms, the look, the charm—everything lines up.

Deepening the Parallels: The Plot as Allegory

• [24:38] A substantial portion of the sequel is set in “Marshmarket,” a stand-in for New Orleans—Goldman’s hometown—and the snake’s background mirrors Gary’s own.
• [26:40] Gladwell links the movie’s core plot to real life:
  • The world of Zootopia is made possible by “weather walls” invented by Gary the Snake’s ancestor, then stolen by corporate “fat cat” lynxes—mirroring Gary Goldman’s charge that his intellectual property was appropriated by a corporate behemoth.

Quote [26:40]:

“So to recap, just as the Walt Disney Company emerges from a bruising seven year legal battle in which a Jewish man from Louisiana named Gary claimed that he invented Zootopia and had his idea stolen by the corporate fat cats at the Walt Disney Company, the Walt Disney Company comes out with a sequel to Zootopia in which the central character is a Jewish snake from Louisiana named Gary, whose family invented Zootopia and had their idea stolen by a bunch of corporate fat cats.” - Malcolm Gladwell

• Angus summarizes:
  • [29:34] “Zootopia 2 is basically an allegory of what Disney did to Gary in Zootopia one. But it’s an allegory that’s created by Disney.”

What Was Disney Thinking?

• [30:06] Gary: “...it seems to me that it’s about me and this lawsuit... And we’re trying to figure out how this happened.”
• [31:08] “Did they sneak it past the Disney legal department? Does the Disney legal department know about it?...”
  • Malcolm and Angus are incredulous at the idea that this plot line could get through Disney’s notoriously cautious legal machinery.

The Industry Reacts – Or Stays Silent

• Gladwell describes his fruitless efforts to get Hollywood insiders to comment.
  • Bob Iger, Disney CEO, responds politely but says, “I cannot comment.” ([33:01])
• Industry figures respond only anonymously:
  • [34:38] “That’s so on the nose and it’s such a bleep you... I didn’t know they were that bold.”
• [35:10] “It’s too good. It’s too good.” - Angus Fletcher

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• [08:53] Angus Fletcher: “In my pitch, it says, when you grow up, quote, if you want to be an elephant, you can be an elephant. And in Disney’s movie, it says, quote, you want to be an elephant, when you grow up, you can be an elephant.”
• [10:58] Angus Fletcher: “You have the writer of Total Recall... telling you that Total Recall is nothing compared to Zootopia.”
• [12:22] Gary Goldman: “That’s really kind of magical thinking masquerading as good advice.”
• [13:50] Malcolm Gladwell (on legal defeat): “The law basically says you have to show that your work was copied word for word. And of course, you can steal someone’s idea without copying it word for word.”
• [26:40] Malcolm Gladwell (Zootopia 2 Allegory): “The whole plot... is about repairing the damage done by the theft of intellectual property... the entire movie is about restoring what was lost.”
• [29:34] Angus Fletcher: “Zootopia 2 is basically an allegory of what Disney did to Gary in Zootopia one. But it’s an allegory that’s created by Disney.”
• [31:40] Narrator: “The positive portrayal of Gary the Snake sneaks past the Disney legal and corporate infrastructure. This is unbelievable. We’re now in a heist movie.”
• [35:10] Angus Fletcher: “It’s too good. It’s too good.”

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Important Timestamps

• [03:17] Gladwell introduces the episode’s inciting event: his Zootopia 2 theater trip with his daughter.
• [05:24] Introduction of Angus Fletcher and Gary Goldman, and the origins of Gary’s Zootopia idea.
• [10:20] Gary’s pitch to Disney and what the concept entailed.
• [13:36] Disney passes on Gary’s idea, then years later releases Zootopia.
• [15:29] Explanation of the legal standard for copyright infringement and Goldman’s loss.
• [19:46] The introduction of Gary the Snake in Zootopia 2.
• [23:43] The character’s similarities to Gary Goldman—“the snake kind of looks Jewish.”
• [24:38] Further plot parallels: the New Orleans parallel and theft of invention.
• [26:40] Gladwell’s major recap of the uncanny analogies between movie and reality.
• [29:34] Angus’s observation: Disney made an allegory of their own legal case.
• [30:06] The Goldman family’s confusion and speculation.
• [33:01] Gladwell emails Bob Iger; Iger politely declines to comment.
• [34:38] Anonymous Hollywood moguls express astonishment.

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Tone & Style

Gladwell’s tone is bemused, incredulous, and investigative—punctuated by both dry wit and genuine bafflement. Gary Goldman vacillates between measured, almost academic explanations and real emotional exasperation, while Angus Fletcher provides both narrative theory insight and a gleeful sense of the absurd.

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Conclusion & Next Steps

Gladwell closes the episode with a cliffhanger: if all this seems too strange, just see the movie yourself—“and there will come a point... when the insanity of the plot will become impossible to ignore.”

The episode ends with the promise that next week, Revisionist History will venture a bold theory about what exactly happened inside Disney, and why Zootopia 2 seems to be a surreal, self-authored confession or provocation.

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This episode fuses Hollywood intrigue, copyright law, and meta-narrative into a story that flips from speculative noir to comedy to tragedy, leaving the biggest questions for Part Two.

Transcript

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[Malcolm Gladwell]

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[Malcolm Gladwell]

On a recent snowy day, I took my four and a half year old to a movie theater on Manhattan's Upper west side. This was only her second time ever at the movies. She was very excited. I bought her a large tub of popcorn. The theater was crowded. We were there to see Disney's Zootopia 2, a film that is now the highest grossing animated movie of all time. We sat enraptured for the better part of two hours and at the end, she turned to me and said, thank you, Daddy. And I said to her, oh, this wasn't for you. This was for me. I'm on assignment. My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. The story I'm about to tell you is the strangest Hollywood story you have ever heard. It makes no sense. It invites all manner of absurd speculation. It's going to take us two episodes to unravel it. And even then your mind will be in such a swirl that you will almost certainly feel compelled to see Zootopia 2 for yourself. And if you've already seen it, to grab any one of your available children and see it again. And to whisper under your breath when you think your little companion isn't listening. Wtf? All of this started when we got a call from Angus Fletcher saying a friend of his needed to speak to me. It was urgent. The friend had a story to tell. A story with so many layers. The friends said that there was no way to do it justice in a single episode. 2 minimum. For future reference. If you need to get my attention, this is the way to do it.

[Gary Goldman]

All right. Can you hear me?

[Narrator/Advertiser]

There you are. Okay, Gary, Angus. The gang is back together.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Right away. I hopped on a zoom with the two of them.

[Angus Fletcher]

If you want. I mean, I can tell you how the story started and then. Gary, you want to?

[Gary Goldman]

Do you want to? So, okay. All right, jump in.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

If you are a longtime listener of revisionist history, you will know the name Angus Fletcher. He's an English professor at Ohio State and runs their narrative project. I love Angus. I think Angus is a genius. Angus has been featured on more Revisionist History episodes than anyone else. Our three part rewrite of the Little Mermaid In Defense of Paw Patrol. And. And this is relevant to the story I'm about to tell you. We did a series of episodes, a Few years back called Development Hell, where we interviewed screenwriters about their best idea that never made it to the screen. And Angus came on to talk about an absolutely banana sci fi project he worked on with a good friend of his, the Hollywood screenwriter Gary Goldman. And during that episode, I concluded that not only is Angus a genius, but Gary is a genius too. Anyway, back to the matter at hand.

[Angus Fletcher]

So basically, I get a phone call from Gary. And Gary and I are old friends. We've worked together on a bunch of screenwriting projects. Gary's one of the most famous and eminent screenwriters in Hollywood. If you love the end to Total Recall, you can thank Gary for that.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Gary Goldman grew up in the South. He was a protege of the novelist Walker Percy. Went to Brandeis, spent some time working in a hospital in Israel during the Yom Kippur War, ended up in Hollywood and has worked with everyone. Paul Verhoeven, James Cameron, Ridley Scott, David Fincher, Stephen Spielberg.

[Angus Fletcher]

So guy calls me up and he goes, angus, have you seen Disney's latest movie here?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Angus is referring to the first Zootopia film, which came out in 2016. Featuring a rabbit named Judy Hopps and a con artist fox named Nick Wilde, who live in a world inhabited entirely by animals and who have to work together to solve a mystery involving the disappearance of predators. It's very good. Zootopia. A gleaming city where animals of all breeds, predator and prey alike, live together in peace and harmony. Zootopia did very well. It grossed a zillion dollars and won the Oscar for best Animated feature. Gary watched all this success closely and

[Gary Goldman]

it's a big deal. I mean, it's a big family event. I can send you the pictures of us drinking champagne when Zootopia won. Won the Academy Award. I mean, this is our lost daughter who is doing great.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Why was this such a big deal for Gary? Here's what he told Angus.

[Angus Fletcher]

And so he tells me the story of how he goes into Disney, how he pitched them this idea, how he wrote it down on a physical document which he gave to Disney. And he goes, I think they might have stolen my idea. I said, what's on this document? And Gary goes to me, okay, well, in my pitch, it says, when you grow up, quote, if you want to be an elephant, you can be an elephant. And in Disney's movie, it says, quote, you want to be an elephant. When you grow up, you can be an elephant. And in Gary's pitch, it says, this is going to take place in a land where, quote, an animal can be whatever it wants. To be. And in Disney's movie it says this is going to take place in a land where quote, anybody can be anything. And then I say to Gary, what is this land? And Gary says to me in my pitch it's called Zootopia. And amazingly in the Disney movie it's called Zootopia.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Wait, okay, so there so many things to.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

To.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

To. To. To pick up on.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Gary, take me back to the beginning

[Narrator/Advertiser]

about the origins of this idea of a movie called Zootopia. What period of time are we talking about here?

[Gary Goldman]

2000.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

2000.

[Gary Goldman]

Yeah. I have two sons. And my sons were, I don't know, four and six. And at that time you start thinking about oh, what can I do creatively that my kids can relate to? And so I came up in. Under interesting, very specific circumstances with the idea for Zootopia. And I'll tell you, when I came up with the word Zootopia I was elated. And I ran into my house and I ran upstairs and I talked to my wife. I said, you're not going to believe this. I've got the most incredible title. I've got the most incredible idea. It's called Zootopia. And she said, oh, I don't know. I don't think it's such a great idea. I said trust me, trust me. It's a really. It's a really good name. In fact, we can't say this word in front of the kids because if we say this word in front of the kids, they're going to go to school and a lot of their. The parents of these kids are in show business and the word is going to get out. And it's very hard to protect a title. So we just have to keep.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

It's more to secrecy.

[Gary Goldman]

Yeah, we had to keep it secret.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Fast forward nine years. Goldman's doing a project with the comic book legend Stan Lee for Disney. And he goes to the Disney exec he's working with and he says, I have this idea. Gives them an eight page outline of the concept. It's called Loony. It's about an animator who creates an animal world called Zootopia. He has drawings of the animals who are going to inhabit the Zootopia world. Roscoe the Hyena, who is cynical and obnoxious. His sidekick Mimi the Squirrel, who is cute and curvaceous and optimistic. Goldman thinks that this is the best idea he's ever had for a movie. And Angus agrees.

[Angus Fletcher]

So first of all, I just want to point out that you have the writer of Total Recall which is generally considered to be one of the greatest stories of all time. Telling you that Total Recall is nothing compared to Zootopia. That should give you some indication. And Gary's legitimately a story genius. Why is Zootopia so good? Well, because what, what you're really trying to do with a story is not just create a plot, you're trying to create a world. Yeah, that's why Star wars is so brilliant. Because the movie great. But really what you want is you want to wander around with lightsabers and Darth Vader and the Force and the Jedi and Leia and all that kind of stuff. And Zootopia is exactly the same thing. Zootopia is a mythic universe. When Gary first told me this, he sent me basically a Bible which went on for hundreds and hundreds of slides explaining to me all the sort of like complex mythiography behind Zootopia. So I'm not going to pretend to be able to kind of expound that to you here. It was like having a conversation with like Joseph Campbell or something. But basically the point is, is that you have an entire universe in which these animals are there to expose the lie that you can be whatever it is that you want to be. I mean, that's basically the twist is that we are all told these fables in America growing up, which is you can be whatever you want to be.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, Gary.

[Gary Goldman]

Yeah. Well, the idea here is all of us tell our kids pretty much. Or you have to decide whether or not to tell your kids. You can be whatever you want to be when you grow up. And you. There's enormous pressure to say it. Even though we know as adults that's not exactly true. That's really kind of magical thinking masquerading as good advice. So do you want to send your kids out into the world knowing nothing except you can be whatever you want to be? And then you just go out there and try, try, try, try, try. And then you encounter real life and you're not prepared for it. On the other hand, if you don't teach your kids that they're going to be totally out competed by all the other kids in the class who have been told they can be whatever they want to be. So I wanted to basically surround these cliches of conventional wisdom with ridiculous, zany cautionary tales about animals who are told they can be whatever they want to be and basically encounter the constraints that all of us encounter in life.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

The world where all this took place was Zootopia. Gary takes his idea to the executive. He's working with at Disney. The executive, according to Goldman, basically says, this is interesting. Should I give it to the folks over at Animation?

[Gary Goldman]

I said, submit it. He said, okay. And I got my papers together and I put it in the portfolio and I handed it to him. And then I hear from my agent, they passed. That's all. They passed.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Six years go by, and then one day, Gary gets a call from one of his sons.

[Gary Goldman]

Both of my sons are in the car together. They say, dad, we're driving down the freeway and we see a billboard. And you're not going to believe it, but it has your Looney characters on it. I said, my Looney characters? What are you talking about? He says, yeah, it's a giant billboard and it's got your characters on it. And I said, what's the name of the movie? And he says, zootopia. And he'd never heard the word Zootopia. He called me up to tell me that he'd seen my Looney characters. So I, you know, I was flabbergasted, obviously.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

The Goldmans go and see Zootopia at the Grove in Los Angeles. They can't believe it. As far as Gary can tell, his character Roscoe, the cynical, obnoxious hyena, has been turned into Nick Wild, the cynical, obnoxious fox. And his optimistic, curvaceous squirrel, Mimi has become the optimistic, curvaceous rabbit. Judy Hobbs. Goldman gets one of the biggest and baddest of law firms, Quinn Emanuel, to represent him. Quinn Emanuel does not usually take suits like this, but for Gary, they make an exception. That's how compelling his case seems. So Quinn Emanuel files a lawsuit claiming copyright infringement. The case goes on for seven years. Everyone who is anyone at Disney is deposed. What's Disney's defense? Is it they never saw it.

[Gary Goldman]

Yes. Never saw it.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

So they're claiming this is a series of incredible coincidences.

[Gary Goldman]

That's right. Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yes.

[Gary Goldman]

They call it independent, independent creation.

[Angus Fletcher]

Just like I independently created Mickey Mouse the other day.

[Gary Goldman]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And what happens? Goldman loses. He appeals, loses again. He switches to state court, loses. The courts find that the similarities between Gary's idea and Zootopia didn't look like copyright infringement. And the case is dismissed before the courts ever get to the question of whether Disney actually used Goldman's pitch.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

So the Goldmans give up the fight.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah. Now, there are a million things to say here. The first is that it isn't surprising that Goldman loses his copyright case against Disney. It's almost impossible to, under current case law, for a writer to win a case like this against a studio. In one analysis, two Los Angeles lawyers looked at over 50 copyright infringement cases writers brought against Hollywood studios, and in every case, the plaintiff lost. The law basically says you have to show that your work was copied word for word. And of course, you can steal someone's idea without copying it word for word.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

I could go on and on about

[Malcolm Gladwell]

this, but I won't. Because what matters is what happens next.

[Angus Fletcher]

Then Gary calls me up a few months ago and he says, angus, have you seen the sequel to Zootopia? And I said, no, Gary, I have not. What happens in the sequel to Zootopia?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Exactly. That's the question. What happens in the sequel to Zootopia? Everyone has a theory. Why do you think I dragged my daughter to see Zootopia 2? Because I have a theory. Gary Goldman has a theory. The team of movie buffs and literary analysts we put on the case have a theory. You will have a theory too, once you finish listening. And why does everyone have a theory? Because there is absolutely something weird going on with Zootopia 2 that requires theory. That's after the break.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Imagine never buying gas again.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

EVs electric vehicles are as easy to

[Narrator/Advertiser]

charge as your phone and perfect for everyday life. Drive daily with confidence everywhere you go. Most Americans drive 40 miles a day, or most EVs are equipped with 200 to 400 miles of range. They've got fewer parts, fewer repairs, and fewer headaches. With hundreds of new and used EV models available today, there's an EV to fit every lifestyle and every budget. Ghost the gas station and save up to $2,000 a year not buying gas. EVs are perfect for real life, with a daily range that allows you to drive with confidence wherever you want to go. And charging is easy. Plug in overnight at home, just like your phone, or use a fast charger and get back on the road in as little as 20 minutes. Learn more at electricforall.org day or night.

[VRBoCare Announcer]

VRBoCare is here 247 to help make every part of your stay seamless. If anything comes up or you simply need a little guidance, support is ready whenever you reach out. From the moment you book to the moment you head home. We're here to help things run smoothly because a great trip starts with the right support. And hey, a good playlist doesn't hurt either.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

At what point do you hear that there's a sequel in the works?

[Gary Goldman]

I mean, it takes years and years to make these movies. They were making beginning to make the sequel while we were still involved in the lawsuit.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

We're Back with Angus Fletcher and Gary Goldman and the sensitive topic of the sequel has finally come up.

[Angus Fletcher]

Oh, it's really interesting because the main character in the sequel to Zootopia is called Gary the Snake.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

The sequel's central character is a snake called Gary the Snake.

[Gary Goldman]

And I thought, well, that's. Obviously they're just planning to, you know, don't make. Don't make a character a snake unless you're planning to. I mean.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

So you thought when you heard of this character Gary the Snake is that

[Gary Goldman]

it was an attack on me. Yeah, it's a personal attack on me.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Now, of course, this could just be a coincidence. Gary is a common name. There are lots of Gary's in the world. So maybe it makes sense there should be lots of snakes named Gary as well. This is essentially what the Zootopia 2 screenwriter said in a publicity interview with the New York. He's named Gary because I think Gary is a hilarious name. I apologize to the Garys of the world, but multiple times over the years when I've been writing a nice guy character, it's Gary. But needless to say, the Goldman family, fresh off seven years of legal hell, do not see things this way.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Who gets the angriest among all the Goldmans, who gets the angriest?

[Gary Goldman]

Oh, well, my younger son. I can't show you, but I'm in my office and there's a door that has a broken hinge, which was when he punched the door in anger after one of these rulings.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

The repository of Goldman anger is in the youngest son.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Do you know what the psychological principle here is called?

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Transactive memory. You know how in families we store

[Malcolm Gladwell]

our memories in other members of our family? That's why the family unit is so powerful.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

But you guys have transactive anger. So you hear about this and you think you have a sense of foreboding. And where do you see. When did you go see Zootopia 2 in the theater?

[Gary Goldman]

Oh, the day before it opened. I mean, we tried to sneak. You know, we tried to get tickets to screening.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

They wouldn't even give you a ticket to the premiere?

[Gary Goldman]

Oh, no, no. They don't talk to me. I mean, I'm. No, no, no, no. I didn't ask them. We're not in touch.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

The whole Goldman family, Gary, his wife Judy, their two grown sons gather at a movie theater in Dublin, California, just east of San Francisco.

[Gary Goldman]

So we go there, we're sitting and we watch as the story unfolds. And my wife says, he looks like you. I said, what are you talking about? The snake looks like me. She says, yeah, don't you see? She's an artist. And so she says, yeah, I can see how that. I think they, you know. In any case, she thinks Gary the Snake.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Now does Gary the Snake really look like Gary Goldman or is this just the Goldmans being paranoid? Well, let me describe Gary Goldman. He's 72. He has large expressive eyes, a self effacing, understated manner. I mean, you've heard him speak. Match that voice to your mental image of your kindly uncle. And what is Gary the Snake? Weirdly, a nice snake, A sweetheart snake. Large expressive eyes, a self effacing, understated manner. Middle aged with one fang instead of two. Conceptually defanged as the middle aged so often are. Oh, Gary. Gary the Snake. And your last name, the Snake. Everything is gonna be okay. Gary says that after the movie came out, all kinds of people texted him to say, Gary the snake looks just like you. And when I went to see Zootopia 2 with my daughter, right after I'd interviewed Gary, that was my first thought as well. Good lord, it's the same guy.

[Deborah Drewes]

Oh, so. Well, Gary doesn't have bad teeth, so the fang was a metaphor. But that, yeah, man. So Gary is this Gary the Snake is sweet. His eyebrows kind of go up a little bit. His eyes kind of droop a little bit.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I called up Goldman's lawyer, Deborah Drewes.

[Deborah Drewes]

I mean, this is going to sound ridiculous. The snake kind of looks Jewish.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yes, the snake looks Jewish 100%.

[Deborah Drewes]

Okay, so I mean, I'm Jewish, so no. Anyway, yes, I did think the snake looked Jewish. And I thought the way he behaved and the way he moved. Gary Goldman's a sweet. He's a sweet guy. So every once in a while that just that Southern charm and there's a little, you know, like when you're playing a stringed instrument and you bend a string and it gives you a little. It gives you a little twang. That's Gary, you know, charming, sweet. So yeah, that was Gary the Snake. I mean, it was clear to me and I think it probably is clear to the people who worked on both films.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Just saying, oh, by the way, a good chunk of the movie takes place in a swampy coastal area called Marshmarket. And I'm quoting now from a review of the movie. Marshmarket could well be the Zootopia equivalent of New Orleans. Everybody thinks this. Here's the LA Times critic Matt Brennan interviewing the screenwriter and director of Zootopia before the movie came out that you

[Gary Goldman]

mentioned Marshmarket and I have to say, is a longtime New Orleanian. I love seeing the zootopian version of a bayou.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Why does all this matter? Because Gary Goldman is from New Orleans. And because Gary Goldman is Jewish. But still. I know what you're thinking. We haven't yet crossed over into scandal. That's after the break.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

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[Malcolm Gladwell]

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[Malcolm Gladwell]

Screenwriters put caricatures of real people in movies all the time. Many people believe, for example, that Dr. Evil in the Austin Powers movies is Lorne Michaels, the creator of Saturday Night Live, the villain of Ian Fleming's James Bond thriller Goldfinger. Rumor has it was based on the modernist architect Erno Goldfinger. Who Fleming was feuding with at the time. Because Goldfinger built an incredibly ugly house down the road from him. So what if the Walt Disney Company wants to make a movie about a middle aged Jewish snake named Gary from New Orleans? That's not a crime. But now we get to the heart of the issue. Which is, what is Zootopia 2 really about? Well, it's a movie about intellectual property. Zootopia exists because of incredibly sophisticated weather walls. That make it possible for animals from all over the world to live in one place. The walls were invented by Agnes de Snake, Gary's great grandmother. Who wanted to build a world where all animals could live in harmony. But her patent was stolen by the evil lynxes who run Zootopia. Big, chubby evil lynxes. Literally corporate fat cats. Listen to how pauper Lynxley describes his family's scheme. But when my great grandfather saw what her idea could be worth. He plotted to steal her plans for himself. The lynxes then cast all the reptiles out of Zootopia to keep their theft a secret. And the plot of the movie involves the intrepid team of Judy Hopps and Nick Wilde teaming up with Gary the snake to get the patent back, restore the snake family's good name and bring reptiles back into the city of Zootopia. The whole plot of Zootopia 2, the entire movie, is about repairing the damage done by the theft of intellectual property. Snakes aren't the bad guys. I have to set things right. And when I do, my family will finally be able to come home. So to recap, just as the Walt Disney Company emerges from a bruising seven year legal battle in which a Jewish man from Louisiana named Gary claimed that he invented Zootopia and had his idea stolen by the corporate fat cats at the Walt Disney Company. The Walt Disney Company comes out with a sequel to Zootopia in which the central character is a Jewish snake from Louisiana named Gary. Whose family invented Zootopia and had their idea stolen by a bunch of corporate fat cats. This is why Gary Goldman called Angus Fletcher and why Angus Fletcher called me.

[Angus Fletcher]

And so Zootopia 2 is basically an allegory of what Disney did to Gary in Zootopia one. But it's an allegory that's created by Disney. So anyway, that was the point where my mind imploded. And I knew we had to call Malcolm.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

This is why I love Angus. Because whenever his mind implodes, he thinks of me.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

The movie's over. The Goldmans walk out, right? And what do you guys do? Do you guys go out to dinner and discuss?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

What do you do?

[Narrator/Advertiser]

How do you download all this information?

[Gary Goldman]

Well, Malcolm, I don't think we are filled with questions and doubts. We're now in the Twilight Zone. Disney has spent over $300 million producing and marketing this movie. And it seems to me that it's about me and this lawsuit. It really sounds. And we're trying to figure out how this happened. Whose idea was it? Is the company behind this? Is it an official statement of the company? Did the writer who are carried over from the last movie, did they have something to do with this?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

If you think that all this is paranoid nonsense, then I suggest once again you go to see Zootopia 2 for yourself. And there will come a point, trust me, when the insanity of the plot will become impossible to ignore. And you will turn to the little person next to you nursing their popcorn. And you will cover their ears and say out loud, along with everyone else in the crowded theater, wtf?

[Gary Goldman]

Did they sneak it past the Disney legal department? Does the Disney legal department know about it? If the Disney legal department knows about it, why did they approve it. If the Disney hierarchs know about it, why did they approve it?

[Narrator/Advertiser]

No way Disney legal department knew about this, right, Angus?

[Gary Goldman]

No way. No way.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

No. This is. That. Let's. We can.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

We can remove that possibility.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

This sounds to me. So somehow, somehow the. The. This Gary the Snake as a.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

The positive portrayal of Gary the Snake sneaks past the Disney legal and corporate infrastructure. This is unbelievable. This is. We're now in a heist movie.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

They sneak the idea out of Disney, out of Burbank.

[Gary Goldman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Malcolm, why did the studio make a movie that can be interpreted as reopening a case that. That was settled, they won?

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Gary Goldman]

And now they're going to talk about it again. And to me, all this does. I mean, from a personal and legal point of view, it invites speculation.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Were there clues in the original litigation that might help us make sense of what happened? I checked with Deborah Drewes, Gary's lawyer. Are there copies in the public realm

[Narrator/Advertiser]

of those depositions of all those Disney guys?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Do you have copies of them?

[Deborah Drewes]

I have a couple of answers for you, but one of them is that Disney was. It was very scrupulous about obtaining a protective order in which pretty much anything that Disney said was proprietary or confidential or this trade secret would have to be filed under seal, so not accessible to the public.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

So then I thought, well, I'll just

[Narrator/Advertiser]

go to the top.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I emailed the CEO of Disney himself, the redoubtable Bob Iger. Hi, Bob. Happy New Year. I have become obsessed with Zootopia 2 and the question of whether the movie is an encoded apology to Gary Goldman. It's maybe my favorite Hollywood story ever. And as you may know, Gary Goldman is interpreting the film's hidden message as an act of graciousness on Disney's part. Would you ever consider talking about this for my podcast? Even five minutes? Even if you just want to say something brief and funny. I just saw it with my 4 year old. Anyway, I know this is a long shot, but thought you might enjoy a little distraction from your day. M. He writes back. First of all, great to hear from you. And the picture of you with a four year old makes me smile. Kids are truly life changers and blessings, aren't they? Then he goes on. Regarding Zootopia and Gary, I am sorry to tell you I cannot comment. I should say, Bob Iger is an incredibly kind and gracious man. And there is a version of this story where he is the hero, the greatest of all heroes, the kind who can never publicly acknowledge their courageous act. There is Also a version where he was the victim of a crime so perfect that he can never bring the offender to justice. We will get there. I promise. Okay. Would anyone else talk? I called up Hollywood big shots, moguls. No one would go in the record. Don't use this. Or you can use this, but don't use my name. Like this guy.

[Angus Fletcher]

I'm not sure why they did it,

[Gary Goldman]

to be honest with you.

[Angus Fletcher]

Yeah, because like, that's so on the

[Gary Goldman]

nose and it's such a bleep you,

[Angus Fletcher]

if you pardon my French. I mean, I didn't know they were

[Gary Goldman]

that bold, to be honest with you.

[Angus Fletcher]

I kind of laugh about it.

[Gary Goldman]

I think.

[Angus Fletcher]

I think it's funny.

[Gary Goldman]

It's funny, but it's hysterical. But here's the truth.

[Angus Fletcher]

You rarely poke talent in the eye. You know what I mean?

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Angus Fletcher]

So I don't know how the lawsuit ended, but I would guess there's a

[Gary Goldman]

little bitterness because people don't lose wealth, Right?

[Angus Fletcher]

So I just find it wildly bizarre.

[Gary Goldman]

It's too good. It's too good.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I kept going. Mogul upon mogul. Hi. Redacted. I'm doing a very strange and hilarious story about Disney and Zootopia 2 and wanted to talk to you about it. The mogul writes back, nice to connect. I would talk to you about anything except Disney. I respond, I totally understand. But I appreciate you getting back to me. I suspect that you will at least be amused by what we end up doing. It's a story about how the script for Zootopia 2 never should have gotten past Disney. Legal Mogul. Not surprised. Good luck. On the matter of Gary The Snake and Zootopia 2, there is nothing but silence from the powers that be. We have been left to our own devices. And there is nothing in the world more exciting. On a story as strange as this. Them being left to our own devices. Next week on Revisionist History Part 2, we venture a bold theory about what exactly happened behind the closed doors of the Walt Disney Corporation. Revisionist History is produced by Nina Bird Lawrence, Lucy Sullivan and Ben Nadaf Haffrey. Our editor is Karen Shakurji. Fact checking by Sam Russek. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Engineering by Nina Byrd Lawrence. Original music by Luis Guerra. Sound design and mastering by Marcelo d'. Oliveira. I'm Malcolm Glabo.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Imagine never buying gas again.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

EVs electric vehicles are are as easy

[Narrator/Advertiser]

to charge as your phone and perfect for everyday life. Drive daily with confidence everywhere you go. Most Americans drive 40 miles a day. Most EVs are equipped with 200 to 400 miles of range, they've got fewer parts, fewer repairs, and fewer headaches. With hundreds of new and used EV models available today, there's an EV to fit every lifestyle and every budget. Ghost the gas station and save up to $2,000 a year not buying gas. EVs are perfect for real life, with a daily range that allows you to drive with confidence wherever you want to go. And charging is easy. Plug in overnight at home, just like your phone, or use a fast charger and get back on the road in as little as 20 minutes. Learn more at electricforall.org day or night.

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