Zootopia Exposed! (Part Two)

Summary

Revisionist History: "Zootopia Exposed! (Part Two)" (March 12, 2026)

Podcast: Revisionist History
Host: Malcolm Gladwell
Key Guests: Ben Nadaff Haffrey, Brit Marling, Zahl But Manglage, Greg Prince

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Overview of the Episode

In this follow-up of the "Zootopia Exposed!" investigation, Malcolm Gladwell and his collaborators dive deep into the subversive narrative of "Zootopia 2," examining its pointed allusions to Disney's corporate history and the unresolved controversy over the film’s origins. The episode probes whether the sequel is a thinly-veiled confession, revenge, or apology for creative appropriation, especially in light of Disney’s legal battle with screenwriter Gary Goldman. Gladwell unpacks the film’s layers of meta-commentary, symbolic references, and the personal and institutional histories that might have shaped its creation, culminating in a striking theory about authorship, legacy, and resistance within corporate behemoths.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Setting Up the Investigation

• [01:51] Ben Nadaff Haffrey recounts seeing "Zootopia 2" in a mostly empty theater, feeling conspicuous as an adult taking meticulous notes, highlighting his intent to “close read” the film, not just enjoy it.
• [02:28] Gladwell sets the stage: He sent Ben to assess controversy surrounding the new Disney sequel, suspecting deep subtext in its narrative choices.

2. Symbolism & Self-Referential Imagery in "Zootopia 2"

• The Magic Castle Parody

  • [03:39–07:31] Ben and Malcolm analyze the scene at 20:10–07:31, where fireworks explode above Lynxley Manor, mirroring the iconic Disney castle opener:

    "It is an exact visual quotation of how every Disney film starts with the fireworks over the Magic Castle."
    — Ben Nadaff Haffrey [07:25]

  • [07:31] Gladwell concludes:

    "The fat cats are in the Disney Castle."
    — Malcolm Gladwell [07:46]

• Ratatouille and Bob Iger References

  • [09:53–10:22] As Gary the Snake dashes through the kitchen, a chef’s hat gag nods to Ratatouille:

    "It's from Ratatouille, a famous Disney film."
    — Ben Nadaff Haffrey [09:53]

  • Also, the weatherman named “Bob Tiger” parodies Disney CEO Bob Iger:

    "In a movie about the weather in Zootopia...the head of Walt Disney."
    — Malcolm Gladwell [09:56]

• Meta-critique and Bootleg Disney DVDs

  • [10:25] Bootleg Disney DVDs sold on-screen further evidence the film’s rampant, intentional self-reference.

    "Anything you need, I got em. Sequels, prequels, requels. Who says the industry's going down the tube?"
    — Weasel character (quoted by Gladwell) [10:25]

3. Is It All Just Over-interpretation?

• [13:56–16:53] Gladwell cautions against reading too much into film subtext, likening critics to those finding conspiracies in The Shining. But animated films, by their nature, leave little to coincidence — every frame is deliberate.

  "There are no coincidences in animated movies. They take years to make. Every single frame is drawn and plotted and executed according to a plan."
  — Malcolm Gladwell [15:57]

4. The Climax: Thinly Veiled Confession?

• [16:53–17:25] They dissect the pivotal scene at 1:29:00, where powerful lynx antagonists tell Gary the Snake:

  "No one will believe you over us."
  — Judy Hopps [16:53, relayed by Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

  "Nothing you do matters."
  — Malcolm Gladwell [16:56]

  "[But] it matters to him."
  — Podcast Host [17:07]

  • Gladwell interprets this exchange as an on-screen apology from Disney’s creators to the real-life Gary Goldman:

    "We could at least give you this small moment of satisfaction that we understand what you went through. It's insane."
    — Malcolm Gladwell [17:37]

5. Critics Weigh In: There’s Nothing Subtle Here

• [18:40–19:54] Gladwell brings in critics Brit Marling and Zahl But Manglage, who conclude the film’s self-referential critique is neither hidden nor accidental:

  "It's not between the lines, it's the lines."
  — Podcast Host [19:51]

6. Corporate Blindspots and Hidden Authorship

• [20:08–22:21] Discussion turns to how such a pointed film got through Disney’s powerful legal apparatus. Greg Prince opines:

  "It is a roadmap for true authorship."
  — Greg Prince [21:04]

  • Gladwell labels the film a “perfect literary crime”—a clandestine, unpunished insurrection by Disney’s creative ranks, because success is the perfect cloak:

    "To get away with a crime in Hollywood is to make a work of art, a work of great commercial art. And that makes you completely above the law. It's genius."
    — Malcolm Gladwell [22:07]

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The Bush Family Saga: Origins of Zootopia’s Moral Compass

1. The Massive Digression (That Isn’t)

• [26:57–36:26] Gladwell’s "digression" reveals the moral lineage of Zootopia’s writer.

Lester Bush Jr.: Moral Warrior versus the Mormon Church

• Lester Bush Jr., physician, Mormon, and CIA medical director, exposes the racist origins of Mormon priesthood exclusion—influencing church reforms but facing ostracism for his efforts:

  "It was just that I saw that there was less and less room in the church for people who thought the way I did."
  — Lester Bush Jr. (relayed by Greg Prince) [30:48]

The Bushes: A Family Tradition of Outsider Advocacy

• Lester Sr.: WWII spy, civil rights advocate in the Deep South
• Larry Bush: Ostracized gay activist
• Gladwell weaves these stories into a narrative of courage, sacrifice, and moral tradition within the Bush family.

2. The Revelation: Jared Bush, Architect of Zootopia

• [34:07–36:20] Jared Bush, Lester Jr.’s son, is Disney’s head of animation and main writer of Zootopia 2.

  "Jared Bush runs all of animation for the Walt Disney Company. And 10 guesses what script Jared Bush is most famous for writing."
  — Malcolm Gladwell [34:07]

  • The parallel between the family’s history of fighting for the marginalized and Zootopia 2’s narrative about excluded reptiles is highlighted:

    "...the father is the one who provides the intellectual foundation for bringing an excluded group fully into the Mormon Church. And then the son writes a movie that's all about bringing an excluded group fully into the animal kingdom."
    — Malcolm Gladwell [35:58]

  • Encanto and glasses-wearing protagonists are cited as further evidence of Jared Bush’s commitment to inclusion and representation.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• The Disney Castle Parody:

  "The fat cats are in the Disney Castle."
  — Malcolm Gladwell [07:46]

• About Bootleg Disney DVDs On-Screen:

  "So I think the whole thing is just like fuck you Disney."
  — Ben Nadaff Haffrey [10:48]

• On Animation’s Intentionality:

  "There are no coincidences in animated movies..."
  — Malcolm Gladwell [15:57]

• Unhidden Subtext:

  "It's not between the lines, it's the lines."
  — Podcast Host [19:51]

• On Getting Away with a Crime in Hollywood:

  "To get away with a crime in Hollywood is to make a work of art, a work of great commercial art. And that makes you completely above the law. It's genius."
  — Malcolm Gladwell [22:07]

• Epistolary Hope:

  "I sent him a handwritten letter ... After I found out that Gary the Snake was a good guy."
  — Ben Nadaff Haffrey [38:06]

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Major Timestamps

• 01:51 — Ben Nadaff Haffrey’s initial investigation at the theater
• 03:39 / 07:31 — The fireworks over Lynxley Manor and Disney Castle comparison
• 09:53 — Ratatouille chef hat gag, Bob Tiger as Bob Iger
• 10:25 — Bootleg DVD weasel sequence
• 16:53 / 17:07 — The climactic confrontation; “It matters to him”
• 19:51 — Marling and But Manglage: “It’s not between the lines, it’s the lines”
• 21:04 / 22:07 — The concept of “the perfect literary crime”
• 26:57–36:26 — Bush family moral legacy and revelation of Jared Bush’s role
• 34:07–35:58 — Parallels between Lester Bush Jr. and Jared Bush’s work
• 38:06 — Ben’s (unanswered) letter to Jared Bush

---

Conclusion

"Zootopia Exposed! (Part Two)" orchestrates a witty, deeply-researched critique of Disney’s self-referential, potentially subversive storytelling. Malcolm Gladwell and collaborators assemble visual clues, legal history, and personal genealogy into a compelling argument: "Zootopia 2" is not just family entertainment, but a cinematic act of rebellion, reckoning, and empathy. In the story of Gary the Snake, the Bushes, and the Goldmans, Gladwell finds a testament to the power of personal redemption—and to the cunning ways artists can speak truth to power, even from within the Magic Kingdom.

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

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[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

So I went to see Zootopia at 3:15pm on a Friday afternoon. It was me, seven children and their associated mothers or nannies, no fathers present. I was the only adult male in the theater. So not only was I there as a professional, but I have never been so demonstrative about the fact that I'm a professional. I took my notebook out of my backpack and I was like, I'm not here to enjoy the film. Silence, children. This is a close reading.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I sent my colleague Ben Nadaff Haffrey, a film buff and literary scholar, to see Disney's new blockbuster animated film Zootopia 2. I told him it was urgent. First things first. Did you enjoy the film?

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

I did. I really did. I actually like Zootopia one better, but I think they're, they're. It's a good. It's good intellectual property.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah. Now you. So you came in knowing that there was this controversy that exists around Zootopia 2 and why the particular plot choices that they pursued were pursued. And so. And you came to, as I understand it, you came out of the theater with some really strong ideas about why this movie is the way it is. Is this correct?

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

Yes, it is correct.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Ben called me up a few days later. Zootopia 2 was now available online. He told me to pull it up. He wanted to show me something that he thought was a clue to unlocking the true meaning of the film.

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

At 20 minutes and 10 seconds when going to.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Right now, the heroes of the Zootopia franchise are two cops, Judy Hopps, a rabbit, and her partner Nick Wilde, a fox. In Zootopia 2 they launch an audacious investigation into the Lynxle, the ruling animal family of the city of Zootopia, who live in a giant mansion called Lynxley manor.

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

Okay, so 20 minutes and 10 seconds. Okay, just to set the scene. Judy Hopps and Nick Wilde, the heroes of the movie, are going to the. To the Lynx Lane Manor because.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Oh my goodness.

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

It's the Zoo Tenniel.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Oh my goodness. It's insane.

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

You know what I'm. You know what I'm gonna say? You know what I'm gonna say?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History. My podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This is the second part of our investigation into the very curious mystery behind Zootopia. The Walt Disney Company's insanely successful and possibly soon to be two time Oscar winning movie franchise about a magical world inhabited entirely by animals. If you have not listened to part one of our exploration, you should do that before we go on. And for those who have, allow me to remind you of where we are in our story. Almost 20 years ago, a screenwriter named Gary Goldman says he went to Disney with an idea for a movie about an animal kingdom named Zootopia. Where every animal was told they could be whatever they wanted to be. Disney passed, but then several years later came out with a movie called Zootopia. About an animal kingdom named Zootopia. Where every animal was told they could be whatever they wanted to be. Gary Goldman sued and lost in a bitter seven year legal battle. Whereupon late in 2025, Disney came out with a sequel called Zootopia 2. And what is Zootopia 2 about a snake named Gary. His family invented the technology of behind Zootopia. The weather walls that make it possible for animals from all over the world to live together. And who had their patents stolen by a family of wealthy lynxes. Lynxes. Could the symbolism be clearer? Stolen by the literal embodiment of corporate fat cats? In this episode we attempt to answer the most important question of all in this long bizarre story. Who was behind this cinematic crime? What did they intend to say? And what could their motivation possibly have been? To start to silence any doubts you may still have about the legitimacy of this enterprise, let me now share with you what my colleague Ben found at the 20 minute, 15 second point of the movie. It's a shot, a brief image looking down at the mansion of the evil corporate fat cats from high in the sky.

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

The camera is like, high above Linksley Manor. And we see the fireworks going off because it. And it is the Disney logo. It is the Magic Kingdom logo.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Ben. Every single night for the last two and a half years, I have sat in my little study with. With one or two of my daughters, and we have seen that exact scene before we watch a Disney movie. And I missed it. I missed it. How did I miss it?

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

It's right there.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

It's an unbelievable. It is an unbelievable visual quotation.

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

It is an exact visual quotation of how every Disney film starts with the fireworks over the Magic Castle.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

So just to be clear, what this image is suggesting is that Lynxley Manor, the home of the fat cats who stole the IP from Gary Desnake, is essentially the Disney Castle.

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

Yes.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

The fat cats are in the Disney Castle.

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

The fat cats are in the Disney Castle.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Disney, famously, the Fortune 500 company most consumed with protecting its association with everything wholesome and good, has done something completely out of character. They've made a movie, a huge movie in which the home of evil cats who steal ideas from innocent reptiles is presented with exactly the same visual language as the iconic Disney castle.

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

Well, wait, Malcolm, maybe this is too much. Maybe, you know, they had a party. There's just the fireworks display. Whatever. Like it's. You know, you could write this off if you were a true skeptic, but I would say then we should look at the frame at 26 minutes and 42 seconds. So this is after

[Malcolm Gladwell]

26, 42. Okay, hold on.

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

So Gary just. Gary. Gary the Snake has revealed himself.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Ben had me take a look at the moment where Gary the Snake has finally gotten a hold of the evidence he needs to prove that snakes really invented Zootopia. The crucial bit of evidence in his case against the Linksleys. You can hear the emotion in his voice. We aren't the bad guys. They are. And this journal holds the secret that will prove it. I have to prove it. Please.

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

I was thinking to myself as this happened, I was like. I had seen the fireworks displayed six minutes earlier, and I was like, wow, that really looked like the Disney logo. But if it were Disney, then Surely there would be some other sign in here that we're meant to read this as a parallel to the Magic castle. And so 26 minutes and 42 seconds. Watch what happens when they race out of the ballroom and through the kitchen.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Okay, I'm watching it right now. The snake goes through the kitchen. It's mayhem. They're racing for their lives. She follows them down a hallway, going through the kitchen. They take the hat off the chef.

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

Do you know what that is? It's from Ratatouille, a famous Disney film.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Oh my God. It goes on. At one point we see a weatherman. What's his name? Bob. Tiger. Get it? Bob Iger is the CEO of the Walt Disney Company In a movie about the weather in Zootopia. The person charged with telling everyone about the weather in Zootopia is the head of Walt Disney.

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

Tomorrow's weather is again everything to announce.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

They brought Bob in to voice the character. Of course there's more later in the movie. Judy Hopps and Nick Wilde leave the castle and pass a weasel selling bootleg DVDs of Disney films. Surely this is gratuitously self referential. Just listen. Anything you need, I got em. Sequels, prequels, requels. Who says the industry's going down the tube?

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

So I think the whole thing is just like fuck you Disney. And okay, last thing. Sorry, I will stop after this.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

No, don't stop. Don't stop. Coming up after the break, we invite some other critics to join the party. This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. There's something interesting about how seamlessly certain tools fit into daily life. Apple Card is one of those things it can be applied for right in the wallet app on iPhone and approval can happen in minutes. So it's ready to use immediately with Apple Pay. I'm so glad. The days of finding my wallet, fishing out the credit card, using it, putting it back in my wallet or oops, maybe I use cash. Where's the atm? Enough. The first time I used Apple Pay on my phone with my Apple Card, I was like, this is the future. There's no going back with Apple Card purchases earn daily cash up to 3% with no points to track and and no waiting for rewards. It's simply daily cash back that I earn on every purchase. There's even an option to open a high yield savings account through Apple Card. And while I haven't done it yet, if I do, my daily cash can grow automatically over time without any extra effort. Because Apple Card lives in the wallet app, it's always accessible on iPhone and can be used with Apple Pay at over 85% of merchants in the US and the security of Face ID and Touch ID prevents unauthorized purchases. Whether using iPhone or Apple Watch to exploit yourself, you can apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app on your iPhone subject to credit approval. Savings is available to Apple Card owners subject to eligibility. Savings in Apple Card by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch Member FDIC terms and [e-mail] let's Talk Personal style.

[Podcast Host]

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[Malcolm Gladwell]

Life moves fast at American Military University. They are ready to help you keep up. AMU's flexible, affordable online programs in cybersecurity, IT, space studies and more are designed for service members, veterans and their families. AMU provides the support you need to take the next step wherever life takes you. American Military University Built for what's next? Learn more at amuapus.edu. before we go on, it is important to establish a few things. First, there is a universe where the obsessive critic sees things in a script that do not exist. In the 1980 masterpiece The Shining, the director Stanley Kubrick has the little boy Danny wearing a sweater decorated with a reference to the Apollo 11 moon landing. And there are people on the Internet who see that sweater as freighted with significance. I'm quoting now from Reddit. In the movie the Shining, we see Danny is wearing a sweater which has Apollo 11 writing on it. It's due to the fact that Stanley Kubrick directed this movie and he was also the guy who directed the fake moon landing. Maybe. Or maybe not. Sometimes A sweater is just a sweater. On the other hand, speaking of Kubrick, There's a whole sequence in Zootopia 2 that also seems to reference the Shining. The villainous Pobert Lynxly grimaces and limps his way through a maze behind the castle. In an exact visual quotation of the way Jack Nicholson famously grimaces and limps his way through a maze in the actual Shining. That is not a coincidence. There are no coincidences in animated movies. They take years to make. Every single frame is drawn and plotted and executed according to a plan. My point is, if there's a ratatouille moment, weasels selling bootlegged Disney DVDs, a weatherman named Bob Tiger. And fireworks exploding over the lynxy manor in exactly the same way that fireworks explode over the Disney castle. The people who made Zootopia 2 did that for a reason. Okay, second thing. What was that reason? It's not a sly dig. An inside joke, some wink, wink. Whoever was behind Zootopia 2 clearly wanted to make a statement. Exhibit A. A pivotal scene. At the 1 hour and 29 minute mark. Judy Hopps and Nick Wilde have finally apprehended Poppert Lynxley, scion of the evil Lynxley family. Gary the snake wraps his body around Poppert, immobilizing him. Poppert is angry, speaking his truth. And then Judy Hops silences him.

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

No one will believe you over us.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

We've always been better than you and we always will be. Nothing you do matters.

[Podcast Host]

Well, it matters to him.

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

Now that, I think, is the crucial part. Nothing you do matters. This film is not gonna change anything, Rias. It's not gonna change anything. Disney owns Zootopia.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

But it matters to him.

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

But it matters to him.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Talking about Gary the Snake, you just pointed me to a scene that is, in an essence, the climax of the movie.

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

It is the end of the film.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

The lynxes have finally been brought to justice.

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

The fat cats are gonna live in the Magic Kingdom.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

The fat cats are gonna live in the Magic Kingdom. And our heroes, the bunny, Judy Hopps. And Judy says, it does matter. And she looks at Gary the snake and says, it matters to him. And this is. I mean, I can't believe I missed this. This is the screenwriter saying to Gary, Gary, I understand what you've been through. We took your idea. I can't give you. You're never going to get recognized in the court of law for being the originator of Zootopia. But we could at least give you this small moment of satisfaction that we understand what you went through. And we understand your contribution that you are. You're Gary the snake and you invent. Your family invented this. It's like. It's insane.

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

It's crazy. It's very explicit. It's. It tracks so perfectly.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Ben and I talked about this moment with the filmmakers Brit Marling and Zahl. But Manglage, under my instructions, Britain Zahl dropped everything and went immediately to see Zootopia 2.

[Podcast Host]

It's not like they made it subtle, as if someone in the writing team knew the score and wanted to do it. Wink to Gary, like, hey, I know what went down. This is our internal apology, a quiet apology to you that only you would understand. They made it in a way that like any part of the audience, his family, the surrounding community that knows anything about it would know that this is what the movie is like. It's not quiet, it's public.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

It is not a Straussian reading of the controversy, in a sense of, you know, the famous theories of Leo Strauss, who argue that texts in conflicted times have hidden messages. And the goal of the scholar is to decode the hidden message. Right. The person attacking the church in the 15th century would never do a real attack. They would make it subtle below the. They would praise the church. But if you read between the lines, you would see this was. There's no Straussian reading here available in Zootopia 2. It is what it is.

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

It's not between the lines, it's the lines. The host.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

It is literally the lines on the book. Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

And it's not Iranian cinema, which has

[Malcolm Gladwell]

to get through all the censorship. So that is an interesting thing about Disney. It shows you there's no one at

[Greg Prince]

the wheel like they were able to

[Malcolm Gladwell]

get this through because the powers that be, the lynxes, did not know what was happening. He's right. Before any script is greenlit, it has to be reviewed by the studio's legal team. The last stop before the wheels start to turn. Is there anything in the script that is potentially problematic? Do we have the rights for everything that needs rights? Is this bit of dialogue or description defamatory? Is this character a little bit too close to a real world character? On and on. Someone did this for the script for Zootopia 2. And for some mysterious reason, that person or maybe team of people said all good. It almost feels like the author of an anti Disney film got an anti Disney film past Disney legal in order to make a point about respecting creativity.

[Greg Prince]

It is a roadmap for true authorship.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, I agree. It's an acknowledgement it's only, I think, an apology if it's just directly to the person you harmed. But when you make something that's not between the lines, but the line themselves, that you're talking to the entire community.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

All of us involved in the forensic analysis of Zootopia 2 agreed. It's the perfect literary crime. The perfect crime reading of Zootopia is that there was a quiet insurrection in the creative ranks at Disney where they felt that the Disney overlords had committed a kind of moral crime against this brilliant man, Gary Goldman. They contrived to come up with a secret form of revenge in the form of Zootopia 2. That was a crime in a sense, that they were violating their implied contract with Disney. But it's a perfect crime because the movie's so good, they can never be convicted of any crime. They can't get punished because the movies

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

are all this money and to punish them would.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

So the way to get away with a crime in Hollywood is to make a work of art, a work of great commercial art. And that makes you completely above the law. It's genius.

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

I think that there is a strong message being sent about Disney and it revolves around authorship and a snake named Gary. And that's a lot of coincidences.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And who is this genius who pulled off the perfect literary crime? After the break, our best guess at the culprit, This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. There's something interesting about how seamlessly certain tools fit into daily life. Apple Card is one of those things it can be applied for right in the wallet app on iPhone and approval can happen in minutes. So it's ready to use immediately with Apple Pay. I'm so glad the days of finding my wallet, fishing out the credit card, using it, putting it back in my wallet, or oops, maybe I use cash. Where's the atm? Enough. The first time I used Apple Pay on my phone with my Apple Card, I was like, this is the future. There's no going back. With Apple Card, purchases earn daily cash up to 3% with no points to track and no waiting for rewards. It's simply daily cash back that I earn on every purchase. There's even an option to open a high yield savings account through Apple Card. And while I haven't done it yet, if I do, my daily cash can grow automatically over time without any extra effort. Because Apple Card lives in the wallet app, it's always accessible on iPhone and can be used with Apple Pay at over 85% of merchants in the US and the security of Face ID and Touch ID prevents unauthorized purchases whether using iPhone or Apple Watch. To explore it yourself, you can apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app on your iPhone subject to credit approval. Savings is available to Apple Card owners subject to eligibility. Savings in Apple Card by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch Member FDIC terms and [e-mail] let's Talk Personal style.

[Podcast Host]

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[Malcolm Gladwell]

Life moves fast at American Military University. They are ready to help you keep up. AMU's flexible, affordable online programs in cybersecurity, IT, space studies and more are designed for service members, veterans and their families. AMU provides the support you need to take the next step wherever life takes you. American Military University Built for what's next? Learn [e-mail] Let me warn you, this is going to require what will seem in a moment like a massive digression. Like when there's a huge construction delay on the interstate and Google Maps directs you down a side road and then another side road and then a farmer's lane in the middle of a cornfield and you're like, wouldn't I have been better off just sitting in traffic for two hours? And. And the answer is no, you wouldn't. The digression is a digression and not an alternate route. Because the whole point of the digression is to get you back on the interstate. Patience, grasshopper. Thank you. Well, thank you for doing this. I appreciate it.

[Greg Prince]

Well, I have no idea what direction we're heading, but let's put on our seat belts and we'll go.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

All of this starts with a man named Lester Bush Jr. Not the Fancy Bushes of Texas and Connecticut and 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, the Bushes of Iowa. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to speak with Lester Bush Jr. Because he died in 2023. But I tracked down his best friend and longtime collaborator, Greg Prince, who told me that his friend Lester was a physician who joined the CIA and rose to the position of the agency's medical director. Lester was also, crucially, a Mormon.

[Greg Prince]

He was in a family whose mother converted to Mormonism, and he and his younger brother were brought along at the same time his father converted. Many years later, he became aware of the discriminatory policy of the church towards blacks, was always uneasy about it, never felt that it was quite right.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Up until the late 70s, the Mormon Church had a policy that said that black people could not serve as priests in the church, which is a big deal because the Mormon Church has a model of lay priesthood. Priests come directly out of the congregation. And if you have a policy that says that black people can't be priests, you're effectively saying that black people cannot fully participate in the life of the church at all. It meant that the church, which was trying to become a worldwide movement, couldn't really expand beyond North America and Europe. And why did the Mormons have this policy? Because it was believed that it was part of the divine inspiration given to the prophet Joseph Smith when he founded the Mormon Church in the early 19th century.

[Greg Prince]

Conventional wisdom all the way up to the top of the church was, well, this was a revelation that started with Joseph Smith, and we have never allowed blacks into our priesthood.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

But while he did his medical training, Lester began to dig into the Mormon Church archives. Spent years reading old manuscripts that no one had ever bothered to look at.

[Greg Prince]

What he found first was, no, that wasn't the case. Because during the administration of Joseph Smith, the founder of the religion, there were well documented cases of several black members being ordained to the priesthood.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Lester's discovery was that the ban on African Americans was started by Joseph Smith's successor, Brigham Young. Lester wrote up his findings in an academic article in 1973 that rocked the Mormon world.

[Greg Prince]

Lester's article showed that this wasn't revelation. This wasn't etched in concrete doctrine. This was a policy. And it was a policy that began with Brigham Young. And it arose out of, would you believe it that there was racism in the United states in the 1840s and 50s?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And here I will admit we are in the middle of the cornfield, but trust me, the interstate awaits five Years after Lester published his manuscript, the Mormon Church rescinds the ban on African Americans. And it's Lester's article that provides the justification for that decision. When you look at the history of the Mormon Church, which over the past half century has exploded in size, particularly in the developed world, everything begins with Lester Bush's stubborn desire to get at the truth. But, and this is crucial, even though Lester Bush changes the course of Mormon history, is he recognized as a hero? No. Some of the leaders of the church fight tooth and nail to block publication of his famous essay. He has challenged a powerful institution, and powerful institutions do not take those kinds of challenges lightly.

[Greg Prince]

He paid a price for it. He was shunned by the church. Eventually he just withdrew from activity in the church, as did his three children. His wife remains an active church member, but she has her eyes open. I thought that it was the cumulative pain that caused him to withdraw, but eventually we were talking about it and he said, no, it wasn't that he said, it was just that I saw that there was less and less room in the church for people who thought the way I did. Yeah, that's a sad statement to have to make, but there was merit in that.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Only at the end of his life did the church make amends. Lester was invited to give an honorary lecture in Salt Lake City, an acknowledgment of his contribution.

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

So here I am, feeling like Rip Van Winkle and looking like something from a storage closet in a museum.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

So it's an honor to speak to

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

this symposium and quite a surprise both

[Malcolm Gladwell]

we ask after so many years and

[Greg Prince]

that the subject is still active.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Afterwards, he had a private breakfast with an official high in the church, a man named Jeff in the Mormon hierarchy, a so called apostle.

[Greg Prince]

And then as we walked out to the underground garage, Jeff put his arm around Lester's shoulder and said, lester, I just want you to hear it from me how much I appreciate what you have done for the church. So we did have closure eventually.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Lester Jr. Was a moral warrior, a man who took on giants on behalf of truth. Oh, and by the way, who was Lester Bush Sr. His father, a CPA who was a spy in the Second World War and spent the 1940s setting up credit unions in the Deep south for African Americans who had been locked out of the financial system. Oh, and Lester Sr. Had another son, Larry, Lester Jr. S brother, who went to Brigham Young University and was kicked out for being gay and then moved to San Francisco and became a gay activist. Can you imagine Thanksgiving dinner in the Bush household? Grandpa talks about taking on the Nazis and. And then Jim Crow wandering the Deep south to bring outsiders back into the fold. Uncle Larry talks about being cast out of school for the simple fact of his sexuality. Dad talks about the pain he knew that African Americans felt on account of their exclusion. And the fight he took up on their behalf. The price he paid. Stories about the power of a personal redemptive gesture. Families have narratives, patterns of practice and behavior that define who they are. You spend your childhood listening to those stories, what do you become? Prince would spend every Sunday night with his friend Lester.

[Greg Prince]

Very good family man. Had three kids. Just as a sidelight.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Wait for it.

[Greg Prince]

His second child and first son is the director of animation for Walt Disney Studios.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Lester Bush's eldest son, Jared Bush, runs all of animation for the Walt Disney Company. And 10 guesses what script Jared Bush is most famous for writing. He's this guy who wrote Zootopia 2

[Greg Prince]

and Zootopia, Moana and Encanto.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, but here this is a question I had, though, because this is actually what led me into all of this. I watched Zootopia 2 and. Zootopia 2 is a movie about how an excluded class of animals, the reptiles, had been kept out of the. The. The world of the animals. And the movie is all about bringing those. Bringing the reptiles back into the fold. Bringing the despised snakes back into the fold and honoring them as. And I'm wondering is. Is. Is Zootopia. Am I correct in reading Zootopia 2 as a kind of Jared, is he continuing the family intellectual tradition here?

[Greg Prince]

I haven't talked to him about that, but I think you're onto something there. If you go back and look at Encanto, you see the same type of thing there. Number one, the focus is on extended families, which comes right out of his heritage. But the other is that the star in it wears glasses. And there had never been a star of an animated movie who wore glasses. And he said, in fact, when he was given the British equivalent of an Academy Award for it, he brought the young lady who had sent him the letter saying, why don't you have any animated movies with people wearing glasses?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Greg Prince]

Jared has a very strong moral compass.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, yeah. Because it does seem. I mean, this is. It fascinates me that the father is the one who provides the intellectual foundation for bringing a group fully into the excluded group, fully into the Mormon Church. And then the son writes a movie that's all about bringing an excluded group fully into the animal kingdom.

[Greg Prince]

I think it's a brilliant storyline. I Had not considered it. Go for it.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

But I did find something in a New York Times article that gave me some sense of how he thinks about these things. The piece came out before Zootopia 2, and in it there was a moment which makes no sense unless you were the one sitting at the dinner table at the Bush family Thanksgiving. The reporter wrote. Mr. Bush's emotions sometimes run close to the surface. Mr. Bush started to tear up, for instance, while talking about the social justice subtext in Zootopia 2. I think that if Larry and Lester Jr. And Lester Sr. Had gone to see Zootopia 2, they would have teared up as well. It was Gary Goldman who made the connection between Jared Bush and the greater Bush family legacy. Or rather his wife Judy, who he describes fondly as the Internet's proctologist. She did the digging, unearthed the story of the remarkable Bushes. And Gary says the revelations gave him peace. He feels he understood finally where Gary the Snake came from. So Jared is representing the family honor here?

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

Yes, that's my interpretation.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

The Bushes. The Bushes are standing up for the Goldmans.

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

That's my interpretation. It makes me feel very good. I have to tell you. I mean, so this is a weird thing. I'm in this, telling you this story, and I feel I've been done wrong in a lot of ways.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

But I feel so close and connected

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

and grateful in a certain way to Jared Bush. And in my imagination, he's a courageous person.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Have you ever met Jared Bush?

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

No. Well, I sent him a handwritten letter.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Oh, you sent him a handwritten letter? Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. When did you send this letter?

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

After I found out that Gary the

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Snake was a good guy. Did he respond? No, he can't. He can't. Because Disney, they would go nuts, right? Somewhere, Jared is listening. Jared, are you out there? On behalf of everyone who saw Zootopia 2, let me join the Goldman family chorus. Well done. Revisionist History is produced by Nina Bird Lawrence, Lucy Sullivan and Ben Nadhaf Haffrey. Our editor is Karen Shakurji. Fact checking by Sam Russick. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Engineering by Nina Byrd Lawrence. Original music by Luis Guerra. Sound design and mastering by Marcelo d'. Oliveira. Malcolm. I'm Malcolm Glabo. Life moves fast at American Military University. They are ready to help you keep up. AMU's flexible, affordable online programs in cybersecurity, IT space studies and more are designed for service members, veterans and their families. AMU provides the support you need to take the next step wherever life takes you. American Military University Built for what's next? Learn more at AMU Apus Edu when

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

you buy business software from lots of

[Greg Prince]

vendors, the costs add up and it

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

gets complicated and confusing.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Odoo solves this.

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single

[Greg Prince]

platform in a simple and affordable way.

[Ben Nadaff Haffrey]

You can save money without missing out on the features you need.

[Greg Prince]

Check out Odoo at o d o o.com that's o d o o.com Taco

[Malcolm Gladwell]

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