Ancient Wonders of the Modern World: The (Alleged) Hanging Gardens of Babylon

Summary

Title: Ancient Wonders of the Modern World: The (Alleged) Hanging Gardens of Babylon
Podcast: Ridiculous History
Host/Author: iHeartPodcasts
Release Date: March 11, 2025

Summary:

In the episode titled "Ancient Wonders of the Modern World: The (Alleged) Hanging Gardens of Babylon," hosts Ben Bullen and Noel Brown, along with producer Max Williams, embark on an intriguing exploration of one of history's most enigmatic creations—the Hanging Gardens of Babylon. This detailed discussion navigates through historical contexts, archaeological debates, and modern interpretations, shedding light on whether this legendary wonder truly existed.

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1. Introduction to the Hanging Gardens

The episode kicks off with the hosts expressing excitement about delving into the wonders of the ancient world, specifically focusing on the Hanging Gardens of Babylon. Ben introduces the topic by posing critical questions: "Where do we get this phrase, wonders of the ancient world? Why are there specifically seven? And why do people still disagree?" (02:20) These questions set the stage for a comprehensive analysis of one of antiquity's most debated structures.

2. Historical Context of Babylon and Nebuchadnezzar II

Ben and Max provide a rich historical backdrop, discussing Babylon's significance in ancient civilization. They highlight Nebuchadnezzar II's role in elevating Babylon to a prominent empire. Max humorously grapples with the pronunciation of "Nebuchadnezzar," saying, "I never say it right. When you see it on paper, it's just... Nebuchadnezzar" (07:56). This segment underscores Nebuchadnezzar's influence and the grandeur of Babylon under his reign.

3. The Legend of the Hanging Gardens

The hosts delve into the legend that Nebuchadnezzar II constructed the Hanging Gardens as a tribute to his wife, Amytis, who longed for the verdant landscapes of her homeland. Ben remarks, "Look folks, if you're listening, always try to impress your significant other" (17:58), emphasizing the personal motivation behind such an architectural marvel. They discuss how Babylon became a symbol of opulence and aesthetic sophistication.

4. Architectural Marvels and Innovations

Ben and Max explore the advanced engineering feats attributed to Babylon, such as the massive double walls and sophisticated irrigation systems. Ben notes, "They had to develop these systems involving pumps and water wheels and cisterns or reservoirs" (21:06), highlighting the technological prowess of the time. Noel adds, "Pleasure garden, if you will," referring to the aesthetic purpose behind cultivating such elaborate gardens (14:04).

5. Archaeological Evidence and Ongoing Debates

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the archaeological evidence—or lack thereof—supporting the existence of the Hanging Gardens. The hosts reference historical accounts from Berossus and Herodotus, noting discrepancies and the absence of definitive archaeological proof. Ben states, "There is no concrete proof that the hanging gardens existed" (30:08). Max introduces findings by German archaeologist Robert Kaldui, who discovered chambers that might have been part of the irrigation system, but acknowledges this remains circumstantial evidence (31:35).

6. Modern Interpretations and Comparisons

The conversation shifts to modern parallels, comparing the Hanging Gardens to existing structures like the Great Sphinx and the pyramids, which have substantial evidence supporting their existence. Ben muses, "It's weird that the Sphinx doesn't count" (36:33), pondering why some wonders have more tangible proof than others. They also discuss the possibility of the gardens being misattributed to Babylon when they might have belonged to Nineveh or Mosul due to historical conquests and name changes.

7. The Hanging Gardens in Popular Culture and Gaming

Linking historical analysis to contemporary culture, the hosts discuss the portrayal of the Hanging Gardens in the popular video game Civilization. Noel observes, "Handgardens is always such an early wonder" (46:06), reflecting on how the game incorporates historical wonders into its strategic gameplay. This segment connects ancient history with modern entertainment, illustrating the enduring fascination with such marvels.

8. Conclusion and Future Explorations

As the episode draws to a close, Ben and the team summarize the ongoing mystery of the Hanging Gardens, acknowledging that while they remain a celebrated wonder, their existence is not conclusively proven. Ben optimistically notes, "There are some people way smarter than us... they may well discover solid, 100% inarguable proof of the Hanging Gardens of Babylon" (43:23). The hosts hint at future episodes that will continue to unravel other ancient wonders, maintaining the audience's curiosity and engagement.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Max Williams [07:56]: "I never say it right. When you see it on paper, it's just... Nebuchadnezzar."

• Ben Bullen [17:58]: "Look folks, if you're listening, always try to impress your significant other."

• Ben Bullen [30:08]: "There is no concrete proof that the hanging gardens existed."

• Max Williams [31:35]: "It’s one of the earliest documented hydraulic machines."

• Ben Bullen [36:33]: "It's weird that the Sphinx doesn't count."

• Noel Brown [46:06]: "Handgardens is always such an early wonder."

• Ben Bullen [43:23]: "There are some people way smarter than us... they may well discover solid, 100% inarguable proof of the Hanging Gardens of Babylon."

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Key Insights and Conclusions:

• Historical Significance: Babylon, under Nebuchadnezzar II, was a hub of architectural innovation and imperial might, making it a fitting backdrop for the construction of one of the Seven Wonders.

• Legend vs. Reality: While the Hanging Gardens are celebrated in historical texts and popular culture, their actual existence remains unverified due to the scarcity of archaeological evidence.

• Archaeological Challenges: The possibility that the gardens were located in a different city, such as Nineveh, adds complexity to the historical narrative and underscores the challenges in tracing ancient wonders.

• Modern Resonance: The Hanging Gardens continue to captivate modern audiences through their depiction in video games and literature, illustrating their lasting impact on human imagination.

• Future Discoveries: Ongoing archaeological endeavors hold the promise of uncovering more definitive evidence about the Hanging Gardens, potentially reshaping our understanding of ancient civilizations.

---

Conclusion:

"Ancient Wonders of the Modern World: The (Alleged) Hanging Gardens of Babylon" offers a captivating exploration into one of history's most debated architectural feats. Through engaging dialogue, historical analysis, and contemporary comparisons, Ben Bullen, Noel Brown, and Max Williams provide listeners with a nuanced perspective on the Hanging Gardens, blending fact with legend and highlighting the enduring mystery that surrounds this ancient wonder.

Transcript

[Ben Bullen]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show, fellow ridiculous historians. Thank you as always, so much for tuning in. Let's hear it for our own wonder of the podcasting world, super producer, Mr. Max Williams. Hello.

[Noel Brown]

I exist. I haven't been on an episode with you guys in almost a month.

[Ben Bullen]

You've always been. You've always been. You've always been there in spirit, like.

[Max Williams]

Mufasa in the clouds, giving us words of wisdom from beyond, only you're still alive.

[Noel Brown]

I did sneak myself into.

[Ben Bullen]

I did. I heard camel episodes at one point.

[Noel Brown]

Real briefly sneak with a boop.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, boop.

[Noel Brown]

Noel's like, oh, I missed. Max.

[Max Williams]

You do a boop right here.

[Noel Brown]

I just do a boop.

[Ben Bullen]

And you're referring to Mr. Noel Brown.

[Max Williams]

That's me.

[Ben Bullen]

Let's give it up for him. I am often called Ben Bollen on this show. We are so happy to be back, Max. You were very much missed, not just by Noel and myself, but by our fellow ridiculous historians.

[Max Williams]

Yeah, it was fun to have Jonathan Strickland, AKA the Quizzter, in. In his normal kind of. I guess it's just his whatever. His Clark Kent to his Superman or super whatever. What's a good alter ego of a super villain? Do super villains usually have alter egos?

[Ben Bullen]

Well, sure. In a couple of horror films, there's been a guy named Dr. Akula that I don't trust.

[Max Williams]

Sure. Dr. Doom is a guy. He's Eric something. Right.

[Ben Bullen]

Eric lencher is Magneto. Dr. Doom is literally named Victor Von Doom.

[Max Williams]

Victor Von Doom. Right. Okay. Wow. Okay.

[Noel Brown]

Well, then we have, like, what Green Goblin is William Dafoe?

[Max Williams]

He's Willem Dafoe. Everybody knows that.

[Ben Bullen]

Osborne guys.

[Noel Brown]

Willem Dafoe. Yes.

[Max Williams]

Weirdly enough, though, the Green Goblin mask, identical to William Dafoe's actual face.

[Ben Bullen]

And we are going to talk about wonders of the ancient world. We're very excited. This is, you know, Willem Dafoe is a wonder of the modern acting world. But where do we get this phrase, wonders of the ancient world? Why are there specifically seven? And why do people still disagree? This question stayed with us for a while. This is the first part of a continuing series. You guys know we love doing series.

[Max Williams]

That just occasional series.

[Ben Bullen]

Yes. History of condiments. Inventors who died by their own hand. And this one. This one is a love letter to all our fellow fans of the excellent game Civilization.

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[Ben Bullen]

Noel, have you ever played Civilization?

[Max Williams]

I haven't, but I know it's been around for a long time. And it's sort of like SimCity, right? Yeah, isn't it? Sort of.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, kind of.

[Noel Brown]

It's oddly like the best educational video game of all time. That's probably the best way to think of it.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, it's a turn based strategy game that tricks you into learning history.

[Max Williams]

Top down though, right? Like where you're kind of having to manipulate aspect aspects like Almost more like stats, kind of. I guess maybe that's the term.

[Noel Brown]

You're like the emperor for your civilization, but you never die forever.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, God emperor.

[Max Williams]

Okay.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. And you can win through a series of different conditions. It's resource management. It's.

[Max Williams]

I love resource management. That's one of my favorite parts of any rpg. I just hang out making daggers in the forge, you know, and selling my wares. Right. I never get around to the quests.

[Noel Brown]

I mean, civilization, the saying for it that is famous is one more turn, right? He's like, I'm gonna do one more turn, one more turn. And then four hours later, you're still saying one more turn.

[Ben Bullen]

It's super addictive. Also, the one big problem I have with it is the further emphasis on nation states, which I just find as a authoritarian and a tyrant, I find nation states offensive.

[Noel Brown]

Have you played seven yet? Oh, you can be a. You can be a tyrant. City states in seven.

[Max Williams]

Well, guys, what system do I get it on? How do I get in on the conversation and all of the tyrannical fun?

[Noel Brown]

It's all cross compatible now, too.

[Ben Bullen]

Oh, yeah. Anywhere. And if you are playing civilization, like our pal Noel, we wish we could be there with you to experience it for the first time. Tell us your favorite civ hacks. Also, true story. This is what I mean when I say it tricks people into learning. You can.

[Max Williams]

That's what we do.

[Ben Bullen]

We trick ourselves maybe.

[Max Williams]

That's so true.

[Ben Bullen]

You can. In this game, you can construct a series of unique things. Sometimes buildings, sometimes notable historical monuments. Only one can exist in the world of the game you're playing. And these are all based on true or claimed actual historical wonders.

[Max Williams]

Wonders. Yeah, exactly. Enter our buddy Nebuchadnezzar. When you read his name on paper, though, it's like, you know that band Einstein, Neubauten. You know, it's like. I never say it right. When you see it on paper, it's just. How does that word exist? Neb? It's N E, B U, C, H A D, N E, Z, Z, A R, which in my mind would be Nebbook, Chad, Nezar. But yeah, it's Nebuchadnezzar. And he was kind of a big deal.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. Yeah. Back in his day. If you want to see the halcyon days, the glory days of Nebuchadnezzar, you're traveling with us back to the Middle east and you're exploring the city of Babylon. We want to thank our research associate, Max, for this. We also want to thank Mark Cartwright over At World History Encyclopedia. Who? Yep, yep, yep. Applause APPLAUSE Y thank you, Mark. You have broken this down for all of us. In the modern day, Babylon is about 50 miles or 80 clicks south of the modern day metropolis of Baghdad in Iraq. And if you look at any sort of history of human civilization, you are going to see Babylon mentioned prominently.

[Max Williams]

Well, this is the part of the world that is often referred to as the cradle of civilization, right?

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, yeah. The delta, the rivers, the Levant. Yeah. The Fertile Crescent and so on. So Babylon as a story, we believe that people start hanging out there in a stationary way in the third millennium bce.

[Max Williams]

Long time ago.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, a long time ago. And Max, you had a lovely piece of language here that I want to shout out. You're saying this occurs back when years counted down, which is super confusing for every public school student when you first have to deal with that. Right.

[Max Williams]

Still for me, can you break it down for us perma public school students in the audience also?

[Noel Brown]

Still, it was super confusing for the people that time. Like, why do the numbers go down? Like, what are we counting down to, y'all?

[Ben Bullen]

The real shining moment of Babylon as we understand it now was in the 6th century BCE, during the reign of Nebuchadnezzar II. Yeah. The city was the capital of a huge empire and it was founded by Nebuchadnezzar's father. Here's another name we'll love. Nabopolisar. True, true. N A B O P O L A S S A R. The names were just cooler back then.

[Max Williams]

And he had done quite well, militarily speaking. With victories over the Assyrian Empire, Nebuchadnezzar II would go on to even greater accolades, including capturing Jerusalem in 597bce. Jerusalem was a major city at this point.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. It's a true story and kind of a controversial one, if we're being honest. He reached the philosophical dilemma that a lot of warlords and world conqueror types eventually reach if they don't die first. He said, look, I can't just be known for extravagant acts of violence. I want people to understand that our empire is a good thing for the world and I want people to want to be part of it. So I am going to make my capital, Babylon, the coolest place around. This is where.

[Max Williams]

Absolutely bespoke.

[Ben Bullen]

Absolutely, yes. Yeah. Tailor made to impress you. And this is where we see architectural marvels like the Ishtar Gate, which is just adorned with all sorts of depictions of animals, some of which are real animals and some of which are animals from folklore and fable.

[Max Williams]

Well, it's interesting, Ben. You and I just spent some time in this general region of the world and in a city called Doha that got a lot of money from oil interest and things like that in relatively recent time. And the way that city looks and feels just has that new car smell even to this day. And that kind of like cutting edge, you know, marvel of the modern world kind of feel. And that is what was being, you know, shot for here.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. And there was a wall surrounding the city, which you can also build in the early stages of the game civilization. Just nice. Yeah. Well, just noting that it's one of.

[Max Williams]

The long wall though, right? It's what, 20 clicks of brick? Yeah.

[Ben Bullen]

Yes. 20 brick clicks. 20 brick clicks. It was again, cutting or cutter edge. This double wall surrounded the city at the time. So far as we know, this was the largest wall built. So this is the first guy to build the biggest wall, or rather, this is the first guy to, you know, make his public and probably his slaves build the world's biggest wall.

[Max Williams]

Well, in a wall, you know, certainly while it may have its aesthetic value, you know, architecturally speaking, need something to judge it up a little bit and kind of, you know, decorate your wall. Even in a game, you know, when you build your structure, you eventually want to put down some throw rugs or some wall sconces, you know.

[Ben Bullen]

Sure. Some torches perhaps, little balustrade, you know, maybe a tasteful landscape painting. This is how. This is how new humanity is at this point. He and his crew, Nebuchadnezzar and his crew, they come up with the idea of cultivating plants not for the brutal struggle of survival, but rather for esthetic purposes. Something to enjoy a nice backyard garden.

[Max Williams]

Pleasure garden, if you will. I don't know why that term. I don't know why pleasure always just sounds horny to me. Even like when they say it to you at Chick Fil A. There's just something about that word that seems naughty. Yeah.

[Ben Bullen]

Well, especially with Chick Fil A, which is a popular fast food chain based in here in our home state of Georgia. Chick Fil A. I think the language makes it creepy because they also say, how may I serve you?

[Max Williams]

And they're also a pretty heavily puritanically religious organization. You know, as a company, if.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, yeah. But. But that being said, you know, we always strive for transparency. Truett Cathy did give me, the founder of Chick Fil A did give me a bunch of money when I became an Eagle Scout, but he kept sending me his books as well. So the idea here is a normal Thing. Now, a lot of people in the crowd tonight were fans of gardening, right? Or we're fans of just growing something like flowers. You don't eat them. You just take care of them and then you smell them and you look at them. At this point, this is a stunning new, dare we say disruptive idea. They're building what appears to be a paradise on earth. And Babylon is one of the first to the post on this. So the concept spreads. This is a historical flex. Shout out to our pals, Jack Miles from Daily.

[Max Williams]

Coming soon. Coming soon.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, we hope if we can get it.

[Max Williams]

Ben, isn't this also just a way of. In this, like, inhospitable climate, this part of the world surrounded by desert, to almost say we can control nature? You know what I mean? It's like there's a flex to it in that respect, too. Almost like as a show of power, godlike abilities to, like, you know, pull these beautiful plants out of the earth in a place where they really don't belong.

[Ben Bullen]

Look upon my lilies and despair.

[Max Williams]

Do despair or rejoice because they're lovely. Lilies are nice.

[Ben Bullen]

Also, check out our earlier episode about real life hermits.

[Max Williams]

That the garden hermits that hanging out there. Are they guarding the place? Are they just there for aesthetics? What's their deal? Check out the episode to find out.

[Noel Brown]

And to jump in here real quick. You guys are just reminding me the way y'all keep talking about us. There's this episode of Star Deep Space Nine season.

[Max Williams]

No one was talking about Star Trek, Max.

[Noel Brown]

No one talking about. No. I think you'll appreciate this.

[Max Williams]

No, I know we will. I'm just joking. It doesn't take much for you to bring it to Star Trek. Please.

[Noel Brown]

But it's a scene between two of the antagonists of the show, Golda Kat and Weyoun, and they're talking about strategy for a war. And one of them's like, yeah, what we should do is we should blow up Earth. And Dakota's like, absolutely not. No, what we need to do is we need to conquer Earth. We need to show them that our way is right.

[Ben Bullen]

Right.

[Noel Brown]

And their way is wrong, and they need confirmed to us. Then Weyoun goes, and then we blow it up. And Dakota's like, only if they don't get down with it.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. You know, maybe. Right. So every open hand can evolve into a fist. And that is the story of Empire. We also know that to the point about that weird hermit episode of Ridiculous History. We know these gardens were considered, like, paradise on Earth because it wasn't just a matter of cute, just so flowers and hedges and plants. There were also sculptures and water features and the views of like the perspective of where you were supposed to stand and take it all in was very much part of the design, allegedly. When there's a reason we keep saying allegedly.

[Max Williams]

So the main motivation for the gardens that Christopher Klein talks about over at History is as follows. He says the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar II was said to have constructed luxurious hang gardens in the 6th century BC as a gift to his wife Amytis.

[Ben Bullen]

Look folks, if you're listening, always try to impress your significant other.

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[Max Williams]

This was very sweet too, because he was trying to bring her home to where they were in this desert climate. She was homesick for the beautiful mountains and fauna flora rather of her native media, which today would be comprising the northwestern part of Iran. So in order to get that desert to support this kind of life, this kind of growth, you had to figure out some kind of engineering aspects, you know, irrigation. We know that a lot of early civilizations had aqueducts and ways of moving water around. This is very similar to that. They had to develop these systems involving pumps and water wheels and cisterns or reservoirs, you know, kind of man made reservoirs that would be able to raise and lower the water from the Euphrates river to the very top, the tippy top of the gardens. And this was quite a distance and quite a change in elevation. So this stuff was mega innovative for the time. And honestly, I mean, they haven't figured out how to do it much better than that. I mean, water works largely, of course there are pumps, but they're talking about that here too. But gravity, you know, they just figured out how to harness gravity to their benefit.

[Ben Bullen]

Absolutely. This is a huge flex. And if we go back to our pal Mark Cartwright. We see that what we call the Hanging gardens of Babylon and legend and pseudo historically accurate stuff today used to have a different name. It was sometimes called the Hanging Gardens of Semester Ramas, named after an Assyrian ruler who occurred so long ago that she became kind of a godlike figure, a symbol of divinity.

[Noel Brown]

So, like Talos.

[Ben Bullen]

Right, like Talos and Skyrim, or like, you know, the first emperor of China, Greco. Romans later believed that this Assyrian ruler extensively rebuilt Babylon in the 9th century BCE. This is where we go to Herodotus, the Greek historian probably best known from Assassin's Creed Odyssey. He describes that irrigation system you're talking about there, Noel, and he breaks down enough detail that we and modern historians believe there was a massive innovative irrigation system in Babylon and around the walls surrounding that city. But our buddy Heavy H does not mention any gardens specifically. So why did he not mention one of the most spectacular things about the most impressive city in the world? To be fair, he also doesn't mention the Great Sphinx when he talks about Giza. So. Well.

[Max Williams]

Right, and we know the Great Sphinx exists, right? Correct. That is confirmed. It's still around, right? No. Yeah, yeah, I thought so.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, it's not in great shape.

[Max Williams]

Yeah, I know it's missing a nose and all of that stuff, but the point being that that thing is equally as captivating and worth a mention as these hanging gardens, with the implication being that maybe the hanging gardens didn't exist. But you said he didn't mention that. So then your point being that maybe he just didn't.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, maybe he was in a hurry. Maybe he thought that was just day one stuff. The first.

[Max Williams]

Oh, good point, Ben. Because in the Szechuan Towers episode we did recently on Stuff They Don't Want yout to Know, a Big part about why there wasn't more hubbub made about these things was that folks traveling through might have just seen them as just, you know, kind of standard, sort of like they were just used to seeing them.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, yeah. In that case, the European explorers definitely looked around and said, eh, yeah, big whoop. We have Towers too.

[Max Williams]

It's like when someone wants you to look at their new car, you're like, I've seen a car. Like, I'm really happy for you and everything, but I know what a car looks like.

[Ben Bullen]

Are you kidding? I get so excited. I can't wait to see your car.

[Max Williams]

Well, you're a different kind of person, Ben, and I appreciate that about you, but in general, I think a lot of folks will just, like, feign interest Like I've seen a car. They're more just happy for their friend.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, I hear you. I hear you. And we know that. We know that there are ancient sources that do talk about the gardens. Berossus of Kos is. Well, actually, it's the nom de plume of a priest named Belusru from Babylon.

[Max Williams]

Why would he change his name? Beluzuru is way cooler.

[Ben Bullen]

It is way cooler. I mean, really, he moved to the island of Kos and just changed his name and, you know, got himself buttoned up as a Grecian.

[Max Williams]

Okay, got it. A Grecian, not a Greco. That only refers to, like, stuff like Greco. But you're a Roman, so why aren't you a Greco? You're a Grecian. I'm sorry, these terms baffle me sometimes.

[Ben Bullen]

Now when you say that, all I can think of is how much I want Greek food. Like right now. It's so good.

[Max Williams]

Well, you know what, Ben? There's some pretty solid Greek places that will deliver to both of us. Maybe we should be Uber Eats buddies and like, you know, have lunch together over zoom. That'd be cute.

[Ben Bullen]

That would be so adorable. Would you. Would you have a virtual lunch with us all three?

[Max Williams]

Yeah, I'll gift it to you guys. Okay.

[Ben Bullen]

Greek food for all the condition.

[Noel Brown]

But Ben, as you know, Greek dermatologist. Yeah, that's the dream. Greek dermatologist.

[Max Williams]

The condition prevents you from enjoying Greek cuisine.

[Noel Brown]

We were at a wedding of a mutual friend of all three of ours, and Ben and I, like, we had to move Ben's cars on that. And we were out there walking and we were, of course, talking about civilization. Sick. That's the best part.

[Ben Bullen]

Weird feeling. That is accurate.

[Max Williams]

That's the callback. That's the tie in.

[Ben Bullen]

Wait, wait. He's going somewhere. He's going somewhere.

[Noel Brown]

So I'm telling Ben about the condition, but I'm also telling him about how much I love Greek food. He's kind of goes, max, the answer is simple. You just gotta find you a Greek dermatologist. Like that's the solution there.

[Ben Bullen]

That's who you should date, dude, I'm telling you. Exactly.

[Max Williams]

And can I just say, Max, congratulations on all the Oscar buzz around the Condition this season. I'm sorry, your lead actor, Demi Moore, who turned in a fantastic performance, didn't take home the Oscar. I think she was robbed.

[Ben Bullen]

You'll get him next time. So if you happen to be a single available Greek dermatologist with excellent taste in podcasters, we have a guy named Max Williams that we'd love for you to meet.

[Max Williams]

Indeed. But, Max, you pointed out off mic, we had a bit of a derail a minute ago that the writings that he left behind, we really only have excerpts of.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. We have other later authors quoting Bell, Usru or Berossus. And a lot of the thing is with that, with all the cribbing and the quoting that occurs in ancient history, we have to look at some other sort of corroborating evidence. And that's where we see that a lot of his quoted descriptions of Babylon do seem to be supported by physical archaeology. He talks about, for instance, high stone terraces that are supposed to look like mountains and how there are a lot of trees and flowers planted on those mountains entirely to kind of recreate again, that part of Iran.

[Max Williams]

That's right. And when we say the hanging gardens, the idea of that, I mean, a lot of these things are coming down from, like, the ceiling, essentially. Right?

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. And this is both form and function because it's a foundational piece of the irrigation methods that are deployed here. And there are sources at the time who. Well, a little bit later, who disagree on the actual architects of the gardens. Sometimes you'll see people describing the gardens as located in different places. Like, these are terraces over in this part of. Of town. Or no, they're at the Royal Palace. Or. No, they're kind of next door to the Royal Palace. It's like when you hear old people who have lived in a city for a long time, whenever they. This is a personal thing because I'm noticing it as I age, sometimes when I'm telling stories and I've seen actually the three of us do this too, I get lost in the directions and I'm like, oh, that was on 6th street, brother.

[Max Williams]

I'm not good at that in real life, let alone recounting something from memory. It's like I'm a little granddad trying to talk about where the old A and P used to be.

[Ben Bullen]

Exactly. That's the thing. We get lost in the geography and it can derail the story. So we see that happening now. Humans have always been the same, and we see people arguing about how they were constructed. Were there layers of soil and stone or lead? How did they prevent the water from seeping through the terraces at this point, as we record in 2025? And we're not poo pooing it, we're not throwing cold water on the idea. We do have to tell you there is no concrete proof that the hanging gardens existed.

[Max Williams]

Yeah, that's right. We do, however, have an account from a German archeologist named Robert Kaldui, who uncovered some foundational chambers and these kind of, you know, caverns, these vaults in the northeastern part of a palace, or the palace rather of Babylon. And some of these vaults, one in particular might have been used as part of a pumping system or what was known as a chain pump. And this would have potentially been part of a subterranean structure powering kind of the irrigation system of the hanging gardens.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, that's the idea. Right. And that's cool, that's exciting. It still technically is kind of circumstantial evidence. Totally. And we can't. Here's the thing. Unlike the sphinx, unlike the pyramids, unlike other ancient wonders, we cannot go see the hanging gardens today. People have tried their own reproductions or their own homages to it, but we still don't know whether it existed.

[Max Williams]

Well, and yet it still is listed as one of the wonders of the world, right?

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. One of the seven wonders. Just because the other six we can check out, the other six are way more confirmed to have existed.

[Max Williams]

Should we list them out just to.

[Ben Bullen]

Just for fun?

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[Ben Bullen]

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[Max Williams]

So where do you go next? Back to ebay.

[Ben Bullen]

You can find anything there. It's unreal.

[Max Williams]

Wipers, headlights, even cold air intakes. It's all there.

[Ben Bullen]

And you've got ebay guaranteed fit.

[Max Williams]

You order a part and if it doesn't fit, send it back. Simple as that.

[Ben Bullen]

Look, DIY fixes can be major. Doesn't matter if it's just maintenance or a major model, you got it.

[Max Williams]

Especially when things are guaranteed to fit.

[Ben Bullen]

So when you dive into your next car project, start with ebay, all the.

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[Ben Bullen]

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[Ben Bullen]

Let'S do it. Because this will give all of us playing along at home a little bit of a sense of where we're going with this series. There's The Great Pyramid 1, Hanging Gardens 2. The Temple of Artemis 3, Statue of Zeus at Olympia. That's 4. The Mausoleum at Halicarnassus, the Colossus of Rhodes, and of course the Lighthouse of Alexandria. Those are the canonical seven.

[Max Williams]

And of those, which ones are actually we able to visit?

[Noel Brown]

There's only one that's still standing. Yeah, the pyramids are the only one that's still standing. But we know the other ones exist.

[Ben Bullen]

We know for sure the other ones existed. And again, what's fascinating as we'll see in this series, there have been multiple attempts to do reproductions of these things because they're just super cool, man. They're super. First off, humanity is always been sort of a hold my beer species, right? And saying, let's build something huge, you know what I mean? Look upon my work, sea mighty and despair and so on. But yeah, the pyramid, the Great Pyramid would be the only one currently that we can go see. And I think it's weird that the Sphinx doesn't count.

[Max Williams]

It is weird. Right. It's count.

[Noel Brown]

It's a sub wonder.

[Max Williams]

That's what they would say.

[Noel Brown]

That's what they would say. There's a lot of debate. Obviously there are a bunch more wonders after this. Like, you know, the Taj Mahal.

[Ben Bullen]

Sure, yeah. The Great Wall, Angor Wat. Yeah, Non Madol, I would even say. But yeah, so we know that after. Here's why there's debate. After Nebuchadnezzar, Babylon was still an important city as part of several different empires. And the rulers of both of these later empires, the Achaemenid and the Seleucid empires, both of their, like, top people, would use the palace at Babylon as their main hangout, as their White House. So with all this argument, all this hullabaloo and discourse about where the hanging gardens actually were in Babylon and whether they existed. We see, like you were saying, no, people are finding vaulted rooms. They're finding stuff that clearly indicates some sort of irrigation system, but they're not finding positive proof of the hanging gardens actually existing. And this is where we get to Christopher Klein actually existing there.

[Max Williams]

Right. Christopher Klein, writing for history, suggests that it's possible that this search was being conducted in the wrong place. According to Oxford University Dr. Stephanie Daly, in fact, a scholar in ancient Mesopotamian languages who found evidence in some new translations of ancient texts belonging to King Sensharib. They described his own mega, mega palace, completely bespoke, referred to in the writings as unrivaled palace, as being a wonder for all people. He also mentioned a technology, a bronze water raising kind of. I guess it's a screw. It is. In fact, that's how it's described. It's not what you would think of as a hardware screw, but it is a spiral and it was invented by Archimedes, who also invented that time travel device from that Indiana Jones movie that everyone loved.

[Ben Bullen]

Right. Okay, couple things there. Cause I have to do it, man. We talked about this on stuff they don't want you to know. Archimedes probably did invent some version of this, but it's a matter of branding because people clearly invented this screw.

[Max Williams]

Parallel thinking it was all time.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, they invented it before him. Parallel thinking, as you said, he was just the most famous guy at the time, so he got his name attached to it.

[Max Williams]

I guess I still don't fully understand how the technology works. I don't know, Max, maybe this is something that you could help with. It is a spiral, and the water is meant to travel upward. Right. So how does that exactly work?

[Noel Brown]

Screw it.

[Max Williams]

Okay, fair enough.

[Noel Brown]

It's actually very simple. But you think about it the way. But it functions in the same way that a screw would work on a much grander scale.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. It's one of the earliest documented hydraulic machines. So you're right. That moves water. Like you said earlier, it leverages gravity. So depending the angle that you put it on, when you turn the screw through one mechanism or another, the screw kind of builds a ramp to move the water up.

[Max Williams]

Got it. Okay. Yeah. That's pretty neat.

[Ben Bullen]

It's weird. I don't know. I think it's super cool. I know it can sound kind of like we're maybe easily impressed or we're.

[Max Williams]

Just a bunch of dorks, which is also entirely possible. Yes. We're in good company with ridiculous historians, we hope.

[Ben Bullen]

Yes, sir. Yeah. Agreed on all counts. And we know. I love the point you're bringing up here, the idea that there may have been some kind of hanging garden somewhere else relatively nearby. Right. In the Middle Eastern area, Nineveh, Mosul, something like that. We know aqueduct technology was very much in play.

[Max Williams]

We've got some bas relief images from the royal palace in Nineveh showing very, very lush, fertile gardens that were being irrigated through an aqueduct.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. And we know that in that part of the world, in that cityscape, the topography was less flat, there was more variation, so it would have made it easier to elevate water to the Gardens vs Babylon, which has a relatively flat landscape. And maybe then the confusion over the location of these gardens could be due to the passage of empires, because the Assyrian forces conquered Babylon in 689bce, and after that takeover, Nineveh got a new name. It was called the New Babylon. So this can be super confusing to later historians and researchers. So maybe the hanging gardens did exist, but instead of being hanging gardens of Babylon, they were hanging gardens of Nineveh. This is crazy, because I was trying to think of a more modern comparison. Imagine if, thousands of years from now, we have a future historian who is totally convinced that the Statue of Liberty is in Poughkeepsie.

[Max Williams]

Yeah, for sure. That'd be interesting. Gosh, I always think whenever I hear about historical accounts of the Statue of Liberty, I can't not think about the Planet of the Apes. They blew it up. We were just talking about blowing things up.

[Ben Bullen]

Yes.

[Max Williams]

Whole planets.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. Super into the idea. Hope that statement ages well.

[Max Williams]

Oh, boy.

[Ben Bullen]

So we know that there is indication at least, that something like the gardens existed. Something in the real world informed this legend of an ancient wonder. We just aren't sure on the specifics because of the great game of telephone. And here's the good news, folks, as we're recording, there are some people way smarter than us, some real boffins and eggheads and Indiana Jones types who are are conducting science and archeology in these areas. So they may well discover solid, 100% inarguable proof of the Hanging Gardens of Babylon, or the Hanging Gardens of Nineveh, or the Hanging Gardens of Mosul, or, you know, at this point, just like a garden.

[Max Williams]

Preferably hanging.

[Ben Bullen]

Preferably hanging.

[Max Williams]

And also, shout out to the early Cure song Total banger. The Hanging Gardens. Check it out. It's a real goth fantasia of a tune.

[Ben Bullen]

Now, I love that you're pointing out that, Noel. And we also, we also, just before we wrap for time, we have to address something that has surely been on everybody's mind from the very top of this show.

[Max Williams]

What is it, Ben? What is it? I want to know if it's on my mind.

[Ben Bullen]

Oh, gosh, I hope it is, Noel, because when you finally. When you get to play Civilization and I'm so happy for you.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, it is.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. One of the questions you're going to have is you're going to have this choice of wonders, right? And it evolves as your civilization does.

[Max Williams]

But you can only have one in the world. Wasn't that a thing you talked about at the top? That's the thing. So you pick your wonder and you. And they're modeled after these things.

[Ben Bullen]

You can build multiple wonders. Other empires will try to build them, too. So you can build the pyramids or Stonehenge or Big Ben or I think Broadway. There are a ton of them. But if somebody.

[Max Williams]

Broadway.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, yeah, they were stretched for ideas.

[Max Williams]

Times Square.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, they were a little stretched for ideas.

[Max Williams]

A wonder of commercial bloat. Sorry, Hot take Times Square.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

Commercial bloat is a way to win civilization.

[Max Williams]

Oh, is it really?

[Ben Bullen]

Yes.

[Max Williams]

Okay.

[Noel Brown]

Not in six, but I think it's seven. They brought it back in previous ones.

[Max Williams]

That have been called commercial bloat.

[Ben Bullen]

This is like trade. It's like the. There's the culture war, there's the economic victory, there's domination victory.

[Noel Brown]

And in seven, now, how they do it now is the three ages. And in the first age, there's an economic golden age, which is like you get by having. By acquiring resources, especially luxury resources and stuff. Seven, by the way, it's really fun and it's getting better. They just released the first update.

[Ben Bullen]

Nice.

[Max Williams]

I'm going to get it immediately after we Wrap this session. I also just found out for any gamers in the audience, there's a new Monster Hunter game on PS5 that I just got and I'm only just now kind of almost through the intro tutorial part. I love the last Monster Hunter game, but I found it a little overwhelming at times and apparently this new one pairs that down a little bit. So going to get back into that one and then get the the New Civilization game.

[Ben Bullen]

And I'm still trying to sleep with a lot of characters in Baldur's Gate 3, so wish me luck, you guys.

[Max Williams]

Gosh, I held that on my machine Dishonored. So Balers Gate 3, man, that was too much for me. I watched my friend play it when he was visiting and I was just like, I don't know of this is for me. It's too small to play on a TV too. It's like all the text is so small.

[Ben Bullen]

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Max Williams]

Maybe a better experience on a PC. I don't know.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, perhaps. Right? And the question here is, should you build the Hanging Gardens in Civilization? Yes. It's going to depend upon your empire's mileage and the approach you take to the game. I would say don't necessarily prioritize it. There are better wonders out there.

[Noel Brown]

Handgardens is always such an early wonder, and especially because if you play on any difficulty above Prince, which they've renamed in the newest one. But Prince is where everyone starts equally. But the other versions of the game, especially once you get up to Immortal or Deity, the AI have significant advantages on you, especially early games. So it's like if you decide I'm getting Hanging Gardens, cool, you're not getting anything else. Especially in Civilization 6. It's like, do I want the Hanging Gardens or do I want a religion, right? And in a lot of ways it's fine if you can get it or if someone's not going for it, then it's great because it'll make your city into a metropolis very quickly. But there's better wonders.

[Ben Bullen]

I gotta say, as a person who always picks the science condition for victory. I'm all about going to space. You know what I mean? That's classic human. Yeah, I can't wait to hear about your experience there and all.

[Max Williams]

And folks, reach for the stars. That's a good advice for everyone to take home.

[Ben Bullen]

There we go. There we go. That's what we call a wrap up folks. Thank you so much for tuning in. There's much more to get to join us later. We're going to explore some stories about apple and apples. Maybe not the way you think. And the Beatles and a beetles and a fabs. Whoa.

[Max Williams]

Well done, chimney sweep.

[Ben Bullen]

And we're going to. We're also going to have some more adventures ahead. Some special guests, some cameos. We can't wait for you to be along. So thank you for tuning in. And also, of course, thanks to our super producer and research associate for today's episode, Mr. Max Williams.

[Max Williams]

That's right. Huge thanks to Alex Williams, who composed our theme, Christopher Ciotes and Eve Jeffcoat here in spirit. And Ben, just a quick thing to say if anybody wanted to reach out to us or suggest any episodes. We're still having gotten the keys back to our official ridiculous history on social media, but you can find us as human people on the Internet if you wish. I'm. How now, Noel Brown on Instagram, I.

[Ben Bullen]

Am calling myself in a burst of creativity, Ben Bullen. Wherever you find a place with an sign, you can also hit me up directly on the website benbullen.com.

[Max Williams]

Good. You lock that down, man. It being your name and all.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, name too. Yeah. With great affection to the other four Ben Bolins in the world. And yes, I do know them all. I reached out to them and I think I creeped them out a little. Big thanks, of course, to the rude dudes of ridiculous crime. And Noel, thanks to you, man.

[Max Williams]

And you as well. You're my. You're the eighth wonder of the world, Ben, in my heart.

[Ben Bullen]

Oh, because of the.

[Max Williams]

Oh, yeah, sure, whatever. We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. CBS, Monday, February 24th. Introducing the new daytime drama beyond the Gates. Welcome to Fairmont Crest Estates, where the wealthy and glamorous Dupree family rules the community with poise and sophistication. That is, until a cheating husband and his trophy wife start stirring up trouble. Find out what happens beyond these majestic gates and behind closed doors, where scandal, romance, betrayal, passion, secrets and revenge await. CBS daytime is about to get soapier. The new daytime drama beyond the Gates premieres CBS Monday, February 24th and streaming on Paramount.

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[Ben Bullen]

To lay low for a few days.

[Ashley Echenetti]

Lay low? What's going on?

[Ben Bullen]

I only paid for this Hyundai Tucson.

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Christopher Allen lynch deal.

[Noel Brown]

So right it almost feels wrong.

[Ben Bullen]

Get the car or SUV you want.

[Max Williams]

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