Badass of the Week, with Ben Thompson - Part 1: History's Most Ridiculous Friendly-fire Incident

Summary

Ridiculous History: Badass of the Week with Ben Thompson - Part 1: History's Most Ridiculous Friendly-fire Incident

Introduction

In this engaging episode of Ridiculous History, hosts Ben Bolan and Noel Brown delve into one of history's most absurd military mishaps. Titled "Badass of the Week, with Ben Thompson - Part 1: History's Most Ridiculous Friendly-fire Incident," the episode features Ben Thompson, the creator of the acclaimed podcast Badass of the Week. Together, they explore the bizarre circumstances surrounding the Battle of Karen Ceves, a friendly-fire incident that stands out as one of the most ridiculous moments in military history.

Introducing the Guest

The episode kicks off with Ben Bolan and Noel Brown warmly welcoming Ben Thompson to the show. Ben Thompson shares insights into his podcast, which celebrates historical figures deemed "badasses" through thorough and entertaining explorations. His enthusiasm sets the stage for an in-depth discussion on the episode's main topic.

Transition to the Main Topic

Given the episode's release on April Fool's Day, Ben Thompson decided to pivot from his usual focus on historical badasses to discuss what he considers the "dumbest battle in history." This decision leads the trio to examine the peculiar events of the Battle of Karen Ceves, a conflict so absurd it blurs the lines between a battle and a friendly-fire incident.

Historical Context: The Holy Roman Empire and Joseph II

The conversation begins with a backdrop of the mid-18th century, a period marked by the complexities of the Holy Roman Empire under the reign of Emperor Joseph II. Joseph II, son of the formidable Empress Maria Theresa, sought to modernize his empire through enlightened despotism—a balance of progressive reforms and autocratic rule.

Ben Thompson explains, “Joseph II is trying to be remembered as this great ruler, making big changes at home, but he needs to do some big foreign policy thing in order to be remembered as this great military mind and diplomat” ([19:15]).

The Prelude to the Battle: The Kettle War of 1784

Amidst internal divisions and external pressures, Joseph II's attempts at diplomacy falter, leading to the infamous Kettle War of 1784. The conflict arises when the Austrian Netherlands (modern-day Belgium) blockades Dutch ports, disrupting trade and military movements. In response, Joseph II sends a fleet of three warships to assert dominance.

Noel Brown muses, “We have to be clear just to get it out there. Ben, this is not a period in history wherein the public, the people who lived in those areas would get a survey or a poll” ([31:06]).

The Ridiculous Friendly-fire Incident

The crux of the episode centers on a single, ill-fated shot fired by the Dutch navy. A Dutch warship, renowned for its precision despite having fewer vessels, fires a warning shot intended to disable the blockade ships. Instead, the cannonball strikes a tea kettle aboard the Austrian flagship, signaling an immediate and absurd surrender.

Ben Thompson humorously recounts, “They shoot one shot and it knocks a tea kettle off of the Austro Hungarian ship. This is the story is that they fire one shot and it knocks a tea kettle off of the Austro Hungarian ship” ([29:15]).

The incident, quickly dubbed the Battle of Karen Ceves, is described as so ineffective that it skirts the definition of a battle entirely, leaning more into a comical act of friendly-fire.

Foreign Policy Missteps and Alliances

Following the Kettle War, Joseph II's foreign policy struggles intensify. His alliances, particularly with Russia under Catherine the Great, are fraught with complications. Attempts to gain favor and secure military victories against the Ottoman Empire are continually undermined by internal rebellions and external pressures from Prussia.

Ben Bolan reflects, “What's an Ottoman? That's the thing you put your feet on, right?” ([13:14]), highlighting the sometimes superficial understanding of historical complexities among leaders of the time.

The Absurdity of War and Leadership

Throughout the discussion, the hosts emphasize the absurdity of the situation, highlighting Joseph II's overambitious plans and lack of genuine military prowess. The surrenders, driven by something as trivial as a toppled tea kettle, underscore the folly of leadership decisions detached from reality.

Ben Thompson remarks, “This is basically what happens here. A peace treaty is then signed shortly thereafter. The war lasted for one gunshot” ([29:08]).

Insights and Reflections

The episode offers a humorous yet insightful look into how miscommunications and trivial incidents can escalate into significant historical events. The Battle of Karen Ceves serves as a testament to the unpredictable nature of warfare and the importance of competent leadership.

Noel Brown adds, “There's nothing like a common enemy to bring folks together. But in this case, it was. There were additional complications for sure” ([41:26]), reflecting on the challenges of uniting a diverse empire under a single cause.

Conclusion and Anticipation for Part 2

As the episode wraps up, the hosts express their appreciation for the historical oddities discussed and tease the continuation of the story in Part 2. The episode concludes on a lighthearted note, reinforcing the show's mission to uncover and celebrate the most ridiculous yet fascinating moments in history.

Ben Bolan concludes, “We couldn't do it without the help of our amazing team, starting with our super producer, Mr. Max Williams” ([43:52]), signaling the collaborative effort behind Ridiculous History.

Notable Quotes

• Ben Thompson: “Joseph II is trying to be remembered as this great ruler, making big changes at home, but he needs to do some big foreign policy thing in order to be remembered as this great military mind and diplomat” ([19:15]).

• Ben Thompson: “They shoot one shot and it knocks a tea kettle off of the Austro Hungarian ship. This is the story is that they fire one shot and it knocks a tea kettle off of the Austro Hungarian ship” ([29:15]).

• Ben Thompson: “This is basically what happens here. A peace treaty is then signed shortly thereafter. The war lasted for one gunshot” ([29:08]).

• Noel Brown: “There were additional complications for sure” ([41:26]).

Final Thoughts

This episode of Ridiculous History masterfully blends humor with historical analysis, shedding light on one of the most comically ineffective battles ever recorded. Through lively discussions and insightful commentary, Ben Bolan, Noel Brown, and Ben Thompson offer listeners a captivating journey into the absurdities of history, making it both educational and entertaining.

Transcript

[Ben Bolan]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you as always, so much for tuning in. In, let's hear it for the man, the myth, the legend of friendly fire, our super producer, Mr. Max Williams.

[Noel Brown]

Hello, Max Williams.

[Ben Bolan]

Yes, Max Williams. Now, who are those Dulcet tones? We may be asking ourselves. It's none other than Noel Brown and Ben Bolan.

[Noel Brown]

That's you. You two have dulcet tones. And together we make. We should start a. Like a. Like a. Like a kind of a doo wop band called the Dulcet Tones.

[Ben Bolan]

There we go. There we go. We could do boys to mention. Is that a name that's already a thing?

[Noel Brown]

Abcbbd. Is it BBD or bbg?

[Ben Bolan]

I've never fully understood. I love it, man. I would love it. We actually, in the past have hung out outside of our. Our daily remit, Noel. We are, as you know, fans of Ridiculous History. We are especially fans of badasses.

[Ben Thompson]

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[Noel Brown]

Knees too.

[Ben Thompson]

Okay.

[Noel Brown]

Yep, there you go.

[Ben Thompson]

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[Max Williams]

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[Noel Brown]

Like 24.

[Max Williams]

7 claims, I'm on cloud nine.

[Ben Thompson]

Clouds are wholly unable to support the weight of an adult human.

[Max Williams]

What's happening?

[Ben Thompson]

Furthermore, clouds are not numbered. Even if you procured a jetpack and searched, you'd find no cloud numbered nine. However, at that altitude, you'd likely befriend a flock of migrating snow geese. Geese who'd encourage you to leave your 24.7geico motorcycle claims insurance behind, as they would take you in and even share their dinner of crickets and clovers with you.

[Ben Bolan]

Ew.

[Ben Thompson]

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[John Cameron Mitchell]

This is John Cameron Mitchell and my new fiction podcast series, Cancellation island stars Holly Hunter as Karen, a wellness influencer who launches a rehab for the recently canceled. In the future, we will all be canceled for 15 minutes, but don't worry, will take you from broke to woke or your money back. Cancellation Island's revolutionary rehab therapies, like bad touch football, anti racism, spin class, and mandatory ayahuasca ceremonies are designed to force the council to confront their worst impulses. But everything starts to fall apart when people start disappearing. Karen, where have you brought us Cancellation island, where a second chance might just be your last. Listen to Cancellation island on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben Bolan]

This is a pretty blatant segue because. Oh, friends and neighbors, we are joined with a guy. Now, I know I sound biased because his name is also Ben, but you're. You remember a little while back we talked with the guy who created the concept of a Badass of the week. That's right, folks. We are joined today with none other than the creator of Badass of the Week, an ongoing exploration of history that is ridiculous in the most amazing way. Please join us in welcoming the one and only Ben Thompson.

[Ben Thompson]

Hello. Thank you guys for having me on the show. I regret to inform you that I do not have dulcet tones and I am not appearing with a badass today. Just double disappointment for you guys.

[Noel Brown]

You're the only badass we need. And don't sell your tones short, buddy.

[Ben Thompson]

They're dulce.

[Noel Brown]

They're plenty dulce.

[Ben Bolan]

No, you're in the band. For sure, you're in the band.

[Ben Thompson]

Okay. All right, I'll take it. I'm not gonna say no. You know what I mean?

[Noel Brown]

What's your voice? What's your vocal register? Are you like a baritone tenor?

[Ben Thompson]

I don't know. I don't know. I have a voice. I'm at the level where I have a list of songs on my telephone that I cannot stray from if I put my name in for karaoke.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah.

[Ben Bolan]

What's your karaoke? What are your karaoke picks?

[Ben Thompson]

What are your karaoke? Yeah, I generally stick to, like, Cake and the Violent Femmes and bands that don't involve singing and just speak the words, you know, that kind of thing.

[Noel Brown]

I respect that.

[Ben Thompson]

But, yeah, I have this list, and it's like, these are the ones that I know. Cause, you know, there's Nothing worse with karaoke than getting up there and the music starts, and you do the first line of the song. Oh, no. You're like, oh, not only do I. Can I not sing this, but I don't know all the words to it. And it's super long. You know, you get up there, you're like, I'll do Bohemian Rhapsody. Everybody will sing along. And you start, and you're like, I can't do this. Nobody's singing along. You're like, I just want to die. I just want to put the microphone down.

[Noel Brown]

Bohemian Rhapsody. Never. It's almost as bad as doing, like, Stairway to Heaven. But I do have to say the most important thing when it comes to karaoke and history is going the distance.

[Ben Thompson]

Yes. Yes. You can make up for a lot of lack of talent with effort.

[Ben Bolan]

Oh, my gosh. I'm feeling very called out now. But. But speaking of talent, speaking of effort and acumen. Ben, congratulations on 100 episodes of Badass of the Week.

[Ben Thompson]

Yeah, recently. So that's awesome. You know, the website started in 04, so the website can drink now. That's how old that is. And I know the podcast had 100 episodes. So, you know, that's. You know, the good news is it's hard to run out of badasses to talk about in history, which is really fun. You know, every time I do an episode, every week, I do one episode, but I get, like, five recommendations for somebody I haven't written about before. So the list continues to get bigger.

[Noel Brown]

And yet you say you come to us today badass free. What's that about? Explain yourself, sir.

[Ben Thompson]

So Badass of the Week comes out on Tuesdays, and I'm gonna, you know, double post this on my feed. This episode on my feed. But for me, this episode will be released on April Fool's Day. So I always, you know, it's.

[Ben Bolan]

It's.

[Ben Thompson]

It's rare. I used to update the website on Fridays. The podcast comes out on Tuesdays. But whenever, like, the exact day lands on an April Fool's, I like to try to do something fun. So today, rather than talk about a badass, I want to talk about the dumbest battle in history, as far as I'm concerned.

[Ben Bolan]

Ooh. Which is, you know, that's a. That's a. That's a competitive list.

[Ben Thompson]

It's a competitive list. And you would think it would be really difficult to pick the dumbest battle in history. You know, I'm in Washington state. We had a pig war here where.

[Noel Brown]

We know what the pig war we did. The Pig War, didn't we, Ben? We did the Pig War.

[Ben Bolan]

We had to. There was a war entirely based on a guy losing an ear. Yeah, People fight.

[Ben Thompson]

Jenkins Ear.

[Ben Bolan]

Yes. Yeah, they put it in the name.

[Noel Brown]

Something about throwing potatoes from a submarine. I seen to remember that one. I do have to say, though, Ben, I hope that the ridiculousness of this battle really makes up for our mega dry episode on the Russo Japanese War that we did recently.

[Ben Thompson]

The Russo Japanese War is pretty badass. Admiral Togo is nuts like that. That battle of Tsushima is insane.

[Ben Bolan]

So Ben set the scene for us, first off. Also, clearly, I'm biased because I love other people named Ben. I'm sorry. I don't want to make it weird, but I do want to be transparent.

[Ben Thompson]

You're making it a little weird. Honest.

[Noel Brown]

I'm assuming refer to you guys collectively as the Bens.

[Ben Bolan]

All right.

[Ben Thompson]

The Benz.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ben Thompson]

Sounds dangerous.

[Noel Brown]

Baby's got the bends.

[Ben Bolan]

So let's cast our memories back to. First off, start this way. Ben, Noel, Max, Fellow ridiculous historians, have you ever traveled to Austria?

[Noel Brown]

When I was a young German boy, I most likely set foot in Austria, but not since then. No, I don't believe so.

[Ben Thompson]

I was an exchange student to Germany in 1996, and we drove down to Bavaria. We crossed over into Salzburg, and I went to the castle there. I saw where Mozart was born, and I climbed up to the top of the castle there. That was pretty cool.

[Noel Brown]

Did you see where Arnold Schwarzenegger was born?

[Ben Thompson]

I didn't, but I learned something interesting about Arnold recently that made me laugh. Apparently, this is going to be one of. I'm sure many segues that I'm going to. Are going to.

[Ben Bolan]

We're keeping it all in.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, boy, are we?

[Ben Thompson]

I learned something interesting about Arnold recently that he wanted to. When the Terminator came out, he wanted to do the German dub of the Terminator because he speaks German, and it's going to be released in Germany, but apparently he is from some mountain town in Austria, and he has some, like, super rednecky German accent. And so they were like, no. Nobody will believe that the sophisticated cybor killing machine from the future talks like a hillbilly. So we're gonna w. With somebody else with a much more, like, appropriate German accent.

[Ben Bolan]

Oh, wow. All right. I love it. And it goes to show that even the most modern badass has a couple things that stay with them.

[Ben Thompson]

Yes. Nothing's perfect. Right? Nobody's perfect.

[Ben Bolan]

Nothing's perfect. Right? And even the most sophisticated militaries can sometimes step on their Own toes foisted.

[Noel Brown]

On their own petard.

[Ben Bolan]

So take us like, we're not just spinning our wheels here, right? We're not just. We're not just flexing our leader hosen or what have you.

[Noel Brown]

You can do. They are a little tighter.

[Ben Bolan]

Well, they have like suspender esque.

[Noel Brown]

Well, when you do those Oompa dance moves you got to have. They got to have a little give to it. Or you might, you know, rip the back out, you know?

[Ben Thompson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Noel Brown]

That'd be dangerous.

[Ben Thompson]

Disastrous. That's worse than trying to do Bohemian Rhapsody karaoke. Blowing out your leaderboards and trying to.

[Noel Brown]

Do, by the way, guys, Oompa version of Bohemian Rhapsody. Just saying. Just putting that out there. The world needs this. So sorry. Carry on, please. Let's call.

[Ben Bolan]

Let's call Weird Al on this.

[Ben Thompson]

Let's get top men. I'm sure it might. Maybe it's been done. I don't know. I feel like there's so many. Verse 10.

[Noel Brown]

Well, there's also an Oompa version of everything.

[Ben Thompson]

Yes.

[Noel Brown]

So that's sort of the whole deal.

[Ben Bolan]

I love that. I love that there's an UBA version of everything. Ben, tell us what friendly fire is.

[Ben Thompson]

Okay. Friendly fire is when you shoot your own guys by accident. They call it friendly fire. It's not that friendly. It's when you accidentally shoot your own guys on your own on the same.

[Noel Brown]

Side as you do, you know. And in like certain shooter games, if I'm not mistaken, there's like a difficulty level, I think, where you can. Friendly fire is a thing. You can. Actually, there are certain games where you can kill your own teammates.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah.

[Ben Thompson]

You'll get banned from team killing in some games. And yeah, like, it's a thing and like, you know, bit of an own.

[Noel Brown]

Goal, as they say in sport.

[Ben Thompson]

Yes. And so when we are going to talk about the Battle of Karen Ceves here, it's referred to as a battle, but it's such a friendly fire incident that sometimes it's referred to as just that, a friendly fire incident and not a battle. But I always have seen it written as the Battle of Karan Sevies. And I think it is the stupidest battle in history. So we're going to talk about it. And the battle here, we're in a time period that can sometimes be a bit of a black hole even for, like, historians. We are in the 1700s in Eastern Europe, which is the time in which everything is fluid. And you have this kind of the height of the Habsburg Empire, the Holy Roman Empire, and there's a lot of weird politics that happen at this time period I'm going to.

[Ben Bolan]

And the Ottomans are still in play, right?

[Ben Thompson]

Yes, the Ottomans are still in play.

[Ben Bolan]

And so let's start before they were thought of as furniture, right?

[Ben Thompson]

Yes, yes. Back when they were still the Ottomans and they were not Turkey yet, they were the Ottoman Empire. They're around what's.

[Noel Brown]

What's an Ottoman? That's the thing you put your feet on, right?

[Ben Thompson]

Yes.

[Noel Brown]

That's not cool. You don't want to be remembered for that bit of a doormat kind of situation.

[Ben Thompson]

They invented it, I think. I think it gets its name because it was a thing that they were using and I think it was like. I think it was fancy. Like when they first said, oh, this is like what the Ottoman sultans do.

[Noel Brown]

It was like the stool boom in Blaine, Indiana from Waiting for Guffman. You know, it's like a whole. An industry that just sprang up over this one esoteric piece of furniture.

[Ben Thompson]

Yeah. The sultan started by making his servants get down on all fours so we could put their feet on their backs. And then they're like, what if they built a piece of wood?

[Noel Brown]

What if we had a non human equivalent? Okay.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Noel Brown]

Okay, I'm listening.

[Ben Thompson]

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[Noel Brown]

See you, dad.

[Ben Thompson]

New Instagram teen account. Automatic protections for who can contact your teen and the content they can see.

[Max Williams]

Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of meaningful beauty. When Dr. Sabah and I decided to do a skincare line together, he said to me, we are going to give women meaningful beauty. And I said, that's exactly right. We want to give women meaningful beauty. Which means each and every product is meaningful. It has a reason to exist. It's efficacious. You're going to get results and then you just go out and live your life. Meaningful beauty confidence is beautiful. Learn [e-mail] Is this a good time? It's me, Dylan Mulvaney, and my dear friend Joe Locke from Heartstopper. And Agatha all Along is my very first guest on my brand new podcast, the Dylan Hour. It's musical mayhem and it is going to be so much fun.

[Ben Thompson]

I like a man.

[Max Williams]

You like a man. What do I like?

[Ben Thompson]

Joe, you like a man too.

[Max Williams]

We often. There's quite similar. There's some cross pollination happening in here.

[Ben Thompson]

Not like. No. Have we. No, no, not yet.

[Max Williams]

Never say Never. I cannot wait for all you girls, gays and they to join me on this extremely special pink confection of a podcast. There is so much darkness in this world and what I think we could all use more of is a little joy. Listen to the Dylan hour on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Love ya.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

This is John Cameron Mitchell and my new fiction podcast series, Cancellation island stars Holly Hunter as Karen, a wellness influencer who launches a rehab for the recently canceled. In the future, we will all be canceled for 15 minutes. But don't worry, we'll take you from broken or your money back. Cancellation Island's revolutionary rehab therapies, like bad touch football, anti racism, spin class and mandatory ayahuasca ceremonies are designed to force the council to confront their worst impulses. But everything starts to fall apart when people start disappearing.

[Ben Bolan]

Karen, where have you brought us?

[John Cameron Mitchell]

Cancellation island, where Second chance might just be your last. Listen to Cancellation island on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben Bolan]

All right, so the Ottoman Empire, very much in play.

[Ben Thompson]

Yes, they're in play. So let's start in the Holy Roman Empire in 1741 with the birth of, of the future Holy Roman Emperor, Joseph ii. So Holy Roman Empire, this is the Austro Hungarian Empire. You'll see it sometimes referred to. We are in Austria. Joseph's mother is the Empress Maria Theresa. And Maria Theresa's badass. We're gonna have some badass women that make ancillary appearances in this story. But Maria Theresa, I could talk about her at length. I'm not going to, but she's pretty badass. She takes over the throne of the Holy Roman Empire. She's attacked by Frederick the Great and several other armies. You have this European World War, one of the many European world wars that were happening around this time. And she is able to hang on to power. In the War of Austrian Succession, she builds up Austria, Hungary, makes it pretty dominant regional power. And then when Frederick the Great comes back in the Seven Years War, she fights him off much better. Seven Years War is another big world war. France gets involved. England in the US we call it the French and Indian War because we were, you know, England and France were at war and they're fighting over Louisiana. The wars in.

[Ben Bolan]

And we're a little self centered.

[Ben Thompson]

Sure, of course, yeah. Well, we were only fighting the French and the Indians. We weren't fighting the the Austrians and the Russians, but they were fighting each other in Crimea and in India and whatever so anyway, though, Maria Theresa, she's a tough lady, and she has this son, Joseph. He is born in 1741 and he is officially co ruler. But that just means that he just signs the documents that Maria Theresa puts in front of him. Okay, okay.

[Ben Bolan]

King of paperwork.

[Ben Thompson]

Yes.

[Noel Brown]

It's like the equivalent of the auto pen that's been Much Ado has been made about in the news.

[Ben Thompson]

I don't know the story.

[Noel Brown]

You don't know what? The auto pen, it's like a thing. Apparently it's been used for, you know, many, many presidencies where it's like. It's a literal mechanical device that recreates a signature on multiple documents at once. Yeah, I didn't know about it either until it's been kind of in the news, but it is something. Actually, we should probably do an episode on the history of the auto pen because it was very much like an invention that was created to, you know, serve a need. Like, I think back in, like, the.

[Ben Bolan]

60S, I'm writing it down. With a regular pen. With a regular pen, yeah, for sure. All right, so we got this Emperor of. Emperor of Paperwork in action. Even though a co. Co Ruler in sort of theory.

[Ben Thompson]

Yes. So in 1763, the Seven Years War ends. He's 22 years old. He is getting a little bit more power, and then when his mother passes away two years later, he becomes the ruler of the Holy Roman Empire. Okay, so Joseph ii, he's an interesting guy. He referred to himself as an enlightened despot, which sounds okay.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, I remember.

[Noel Brown]

Did he coin that? I feel like I've used. I've heard that used to describe other people in it.

[Ben Thompson]

You know, I'm not sure whether he invented that or not. Knowing what I know about this guy. Probably not. He probably heard the term and liked it and applied it to himself.

[Ben Bolan]

He said, also me.

[Ben Thompson]

Yeah, that's what I am. I'm definitely that.

[Ben Bolan]

Like someone reposting a meme on Reddit. All right, so he's got this big Victor Von Doom energy.

[Ben Thompson]

Yeah. So he's an enlightened despot, which. It sounds bad, but it's okay. So basically, the Enlightenment is cool. Free thinking is cool. Human rights are cool. Except for all that anti King talk. King is still. We still have to do the aristocracy thing. But freedom of expression, as long as you like me, you can be. You can have freedom of expression as long as you don't say anything against me. And he starts bringing in scholars, scientists. He builds universities, hospitals. He reforms the civil law to make it A little bit less repressive. He abolishes slavery and serfdom in the Austro Hungarian Empire or the Holy Roman Empire.

[Noel Brown]

These all sound like great men.

[Ben Bolan]

This is also super forward thinking. In contrast to places like the Ottoman Empire, which was super down with.

[Ben Thompson]

Yeah. Yes. He passes religious equality law and even includes the Jews and Muslims in it. They're allowed. You're allowed to be Jewish and Muslim in the Holy Roman Empire. Wow. He's a patron of the arts and music. Mozart and Beethoven come to his court. He actually hires Mozart to be his chamber composer, which had been like a vacant spot for a long time. And he's like, oh, Mozart, come on, you can be my chamber composer. I'll pay you to make music for my parades. And so Mozart hated this. He would have to make these little marches for him to appear at these events. But it was a paycheck and he had to get paid.

[Ben Bolan]

Right, right, right.

[Ben Thompson]

And so, okay, all this is great, except. But he is the Holy Roman Empire. And the Pope doesn't like a lot of this stuff that's happening. Isn't really down with all of this stuff in 1741. And he's got a lot of Catholic subjects, so there's a little bit of argument among his people as to whether these reforms are good or bad. We see this from time to time that countries can't agree on the direction the country should be taking.

[Ben Bolan]

Sure.

[Ben Thompson]

Okay. So all that's going okay at home, but he's decided at some point, like, he's built up his kingdom. He's got this enlightened despot thing going on, but he wants to kind of get involved with foreign policy. And so his first attempt at that is. We were talking about funny wars is the kettle war of 1784. And I'm mentioning this only because it's weird.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, no, My imagination is already running wild. What could the Kettle War have been all about?

[Ben Thompson]

So one of these Catholic groups in the Holy Roman Empire that don't like his reforms are what's referred to at the time as the Austrian Netherlands. But today it's basically Belgium more or less equates to Belgium.

[Ben Bolan]

Like the Low Country.

[Ben Thompson]

Yeah, yeah. The Austrian Netherlands sounds like somewhere that Sauron would live, though. You know what I mean? Oh, he is from the Austrian Netherlands, the netherrealm of Austria. And so he.

[Noel Brown]

Anyway, so he is a Netherrealm, a Mortal Kombat thing. I think it is. It's the name of the company that is also. I think maybe it's Outworld, but they do refer to the Nether Realms.

[Ben Thompson]

There are definitely Nether realms in various pieces of fantasy and science fiction, Dungeons.

[Ben Bolan]

And Dragons, and also, you know, just for all our listeners from the Netherlands. It's a weird name in English.

[Ben Thompson]

It's weird that you're. It's the Netherlands, but it's also Holland and you're the Dutch. That's weird, right? Also, your national color is orange, but it doesn't appear on your flag. That's weird, too.

[Ben Bolan]

That's also weird. Also, while we're in that area of the world. Just gonna walk down the street for this one. Thank you. Denmark for Legos. That was tight. Good move.

[Ben Thompson]

No, I didn't know they were.

[Noel Brown]

Can you say something about, like, there's more Lego pieces now in existence than some other things that there are a lot of.

[Ben Bolan]

There are more Lego minifigures or minifigs for fellow nerds than there are human beings alive.

[Ben Thompson]

What? Is that true?

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. Yes, that is true. It's like podcast true, but it is true.

[Ben Thompson]

Sam.

[Ben Bolan]

Ben, we're derailing you.

[Ben Thompson]

No, no, I'm derailing myself. I'm talking about the 1784 Kettle War when we're supposed to be talking about the 1788 battle of parent 70s. We're building up to good.

[Ben Bolan]

Let's spin it out, though. What's the Kettle War?

[Ben Thompson]

It helps to know the background on Joseph II is going to help to understand what happens at Karen Sebees. So, okay, so Joseph ii, he wants to. At home, things are going okay. All of the people in the cities are down with his stuff. A lot of the people who are a little bit less enlightened, affected by the Enlightenment, they're not down with what he's doing. So there's division within the Austro Hungarian Empire, and one of the regions that is divided is this Austrian Netherlands, which, like I said, is basically Belgium. The Austrian Netherlands borders actual Netherlands, which is Protestant at the time, and they get grumpy and they blockade the Belgian ports to deny Joseph and his ships access to the North Sea. So he says, okay, I'm going to declare war if you don't release this blockade. So he sends three warships to threaten the blockade. And these three warships go out. One Dutch warship approaches them, and one thing about the Dutch at this time is they're awesome. Their navy's awesome, right? And the Austro Hungarian Empire is not known for having an awesome navy, but the Dutch navy is very experienced and they're very powerful at this time period. And the Dutch navy and sailors, you know, they didn't have a lot of guys and a lot of ships, but what they had was a very high quality. Anyway, so this one Dutch ship sails out to these three Austro Hungarian ships and the Austro Hungarians are like, if you don't release the blockade, we'll fire on you and declare war. And the Dutch shoot at them. They shoot one shot, one warning shot that flies over and hits a tea kettle on one of the Austro Hungarian ships. This is the story is that they fire one shot and it knocks a tea kettle off of the Austro Hungarian ship. It's the flagship, it's carrying Joseph's flag and it immediately surrenders. Introducing Instagram teen accounts. A new way to keep your teen safer as they grow. Like making sure they always have their seatbelt on. Alright, sweetie pie, buckle up. Good job. Or ring the bell on their bike. Okay, kid, give it a try. Nice. Or remember their elbow pads.

[Noel Brown]

Knees too. Okay.

[Ben Thompson]

Yep.

[Noel Brown]

There you go.

[Ben Thompson]

New Instagram teen accounts. Automatic protections for who can contact your teen and the content they can see.

[Max Williams]

Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of meaningful beauty. When Dr. Saba and I decided to do a skincare line together, he said to me, we are going to give women meaningful beauty. And I said, that's exactly right. We want to give women meaningful beauty. Which means each and every product is meaningful. It has a reason to exist. It's efficacious. You're going to get results and then you just go out and live your life. Meaningful beauty confidence is beautiful. Learn [e-mail] Is this a good time? It's me, Dylan Mulvaney and my dear friend Joe Locke from Heartstopper. And Agatha all along is my very first guest on my brand new podcast, the Dylan Hour. It's musical mayhem and it is going to be so much fun. I like a man, you like a man. What do I like?

[Ben Thompson]

Joe, you like a man too.

[Max Williams]

We often. There's quite similar. There's some cross pollination happening in here.

[Ben Thompson]

Not like. No. Have we? No. No, not yet.

[Max Williams]

Never say never. I cannot wait for all you girls gays and they's to join me on this extremely special pink confection of a podcast. There is so much darkness in this world and what I think we could all use more of is a little joy. Listen to the Dylan hour on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Love ya.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

This is John Cameron Mitchell and my new fiction podcast series, Cancellation island stars Holly Hunter as Karen, a wellness influencer who launches a rehab for the recently cancelled. In the future, we will all be canceled for 15 minutes. But don't worry, we'll take you from broke to woke or your money back. Cancellation island revolutionary rehab therapies like bad touch football, anti racism spin class, and mandatory ayahuasca ceremonies are designed to force the council to confront their worst impulses. But everything starts to fall apart when people start disappearing.

[Ben Bolan]

Karen, where have you brought us?

[John Cameron Mitchell]

Cancellation island, where a second chance might just be your last. Listen to Cancellation island on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben Thompson]

A peace treaty is then signed shortly thereafter. The war lasted for one gunshot.

[Ben Bolan]

Oh, wow.

[Ben Thompson]

Austro Hungarian flagship says, stop the blockade. Shoot this teaketle. And I like the picture that, like, they were aiming for it. You know, it might have been an accident, but I was just like, being like, some sniper round, you know, his captain's like, actually, never mind. I surrender.

[Ben Bolan]

That's amazing marksmanship. You know, at that point. I love the idea, too, in sort of the badass, ridiculous history cinematic universe. I love the idea of, you know, an officer class type dude lifting up, you know, the kettle or something and then getting. Getting the shot through it and then saying, no, this is not cool. I have other stuff to do to have my tea.

[Ben Thompson]

Yeah, I'm seeing some, like, fast cuts of like a. Like a Guy Ritchie kind of thing of like, surrender.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, Very Looney Tunes ass.

[Ben Thompson]

Yes. And so they surrender. They sign a peace treaty that doesn't work out too well. The Austrian Netherlands is still upset because they don't like that the Pope is disagreeing with the emperor. And so Joseph ii, as part of that peace treaty is like, hey, how about this, you guys? The Dutch are holding Bavaria, which is in southern Germany, and borders Austria. And I'm holding the Austrian Netherlands, which is Belgium, and borders. Like, we have these disconnected empires, right? And he's like, how about I trade you the Austrian Netherlands for Bavaria?

[Noel Brown]

Seems fair.

[Ben Thompson]

All right. Yeah. And the Dutch are like, no, that's weird. Why would we? It's super odd. And everybody at the time writing about it is like, it's super weird that he offered to just trade regions with people with the Dutch. They said no.

[Ben Bolan]

We have to be clear just to get it out there. Ben, this is not a period in history wherein the public, the people who lived in those areas would get a survey or a poll.

[Ben Thompson]

No, no.

[Ben Bolan]

Okay.

[Ben Thompson]

No. This is the business of kings.

[Ben Bolan]

All right. There we go. That's what Noel and I refer to it as. Whenever we're making up reasons to hang outside of work. And we don't want to explain ourselves. You know, my girlfriend's like, where are you guys going? I always say it's the business of kings.

[Ben Thompson]

Business of kings.

[Noel Brown]

We gotta strategize. We gotta have a rap sesh to figure out our plan for world domination.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, like our king stuff.

[Ben Thompson]

Business of kings. Save the receipts, write them off on your taxes.

[Noel Brown]

King moves.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, king moves. Hashtag. So, okay, so this is not just a weird flex for the people, the common in the region. This is a weird flex for all international observers.

[Ben Thompson]

Yes. Everybody thinks it's weird that he made this offer because it gets out. Word gets out that he offered this trade and it's weird. So, okay, foreign policy is not going well for him. He travels around, he goes to Paris and Rome and Moscow and he tries to make nice with the Pope. It doesn't work out. Okay, so he's. Holland doesn't like him. He borders Prussia and they've just had these two big wars with Prussia. Frederick the Great's there. They had the War of Austrian succession. They had the Seven Years War. Prussia is a powerful. Prussia is like basically like the heart of present day Germany. They're tough guys, they're great soldiers and they share a border and they want to take some land from Austria. So he's got that problem too. Okay, but he wants to. Joseph II wants to be remembered as this great ruler. And yes, I've made these great changes at home, but I need to do some big foreign policy thing in order to be remembered as this great military mind and diplomat and the greatest king ever. Okay.

[Ben Bolan]

My legacy he's thinking about.

[Ben Thompson]

Yes, he's inheriting from his mother who was a very powerful and very well respected woman in Europe. And he's got big shoes to fill and he wants to do some great things to be remembered. Okay, so Holland and Prussia aren't working out. So he makes an alliance with Russia, who had been Austria's friend during the Seven Years War. And Russia at the time is ruled by Catherine the Great, who was the second of the powerful badass women that we're going to talk about in the episode today. She is super tough lady. Catherine the Great is extremely tough and she was born in Germany. She probably reminds him of his mom. Honestly, if I had to gas can. But she is like, she's needing allies because like you said, the Ottoman Empire borders him to the east and they border Russia and Russia wants those warm water ports in Crimea and the Mediterranean and the Black Sea. And so they want to go to war with the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire at this time spans most of the Islamic world. Huge amount of land, huge number of people. But by this point, 1740s, they've got the sultans, they've got money, they've got troops. But there's the feeling that things are maybe starting to crumble a little bit, and maybe there's some weakness there.

[Ben Bolan]

They're losing some technological progress.

[Ben Thompson]

Yes. The Enlightenment is coming, and there's a lot of technological development happening in Europe that isn't being shared. Military technology is happening in Europe that is not being shared with the Turks. And so they're starting to feel like maybe we can take some land from these guys. Catherine the Great has built up Russia to this very powerful military, and she wants to take lands from the Ottomans. And so. And this whole time period is all very, like, I always think of, like, Civ 2 or something, you know, like, where you just make a line like, I gotta take.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, my God. So just came up on a recent conversation.

[Ben Thompson]

Yeah. Just like, ah, I gotta take this one town because it's worth a lot of money. I want this. It'll go to worth.

[Noel Brown]

For the record, I still haven't cracked it yet, y'all, but it's on my list.

[Ben Bolan]

You're gonna have a great time, though. Are you playing Civilization 7 yet, Ben?

[Ben Thompson]

No. I haven't had a lot of time for games recently. It's one of those ones where, like, I, you know, if I. I gotta finish this project I'm working on and then I can start a new game. But, like, if I started.

[Ben Bolan]

Open the door. If you open the door. I just.

[Ben Thompson]

I get sucked in. I like it too much.

[Ben Bolan]

You know, I love. I think what we're saying here is we love the comparison because there is a great deal of geopolitical calculation here. Right. Russia, then, as now, honestly, is eternally searching for a warm water port. So it makes sense that these rulers would be pushing on the Ottomans if they can.

[Ben Thompson]

Yes. So, great. This all works out great for Joseph. He signs a peace treaty. He goes and visits Catherine in Moscow a couple times. They sign a peace treaty or an alliance. And as part of that alliance, Catherine takes the Crimea for Russia. Cough, cough. And they partition Poland up between Russia and Austria, Hungary, because that's what happens to Poland for the next couple hundred years. In this time period, all the time. Yeah. Okay, that's great. Except. And you know, the Turks are even better. It's even better to be fighting the Turks than it is to be fighting the Prussians. And the Dutch, because the Turks are Muslims and their enemies, and we're not fighting other Christian kingdoms and causing problems with the Pope and all of this stuff. So it's totally cool. Austrians have been fighting the Turks since, like the 1500s. You know, Suleiman the Magnificent besieged Vienna at one point in the 1680s, you know, so they're, they're. They're great enemies, and it'll be awesome to have a war with them. It'll really be how Emperor Joseph II is going to make his name as a military genius. He is going to march east from. He's made this plan with Catherine. She's going to march south from Russia. He's going to march east. At this time, the Turks control most of Romania and the former Yugoslavia. They control a lot of the Balkans. And there are elements from the Balkans that are like, you've got a Serbian regiment in the Austro Hungarian Empire that's like, hey, we'll fight. Let's go get Belgrade back. Because Serbian people are there and the Turks rule it and they're making them all be Muslim and they're doing bad stuff. So, like, let's free our homelands. And so, great, this big army is assembled. This call goes out, and it's Austrians and it's Hungarians, which do not share language, but they are part of the same empire. You've got Germans from the various German principalities that are part of the Austro Hungarian Empire at this time. You've got Italians, like northern Italy. There's some northern Italy happening in the Austro Hungarian Empire. And then you've got these guys that are looking to reclaim their lands. You've got Romanians, you've got Croats, Bosnians and Serbians all working together. And so everybody's kind of united under, like, let's get the Turks. Great. This seems good. All right. So you kind of have to keep up appearances at this time period. So the plan is that Russia and Austria will just f with the Turks until they get mad and attack. And then they can say, look, we were attacked. So they do that. We were provoked.

[Ben Bolan]

Our fancy word for that is what, bellis. Causey or something like that.

[Ben Thompson]

Yes, yes.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah.

[Ben Thompson]

So in civ, it's the equivalent of, like, you open a. You open diplomatic relations with a foreign king, and then you, like, demand three of his cities for nothing. And then he gets mad and declares war on you. That's basically what happens here.

[Ben Bolan]

And you're like, whoa, these guys came at us.

[Ben Thompson]

Yeah, I didn't do anything. They marched into my land first. So the Turks attack the Russians, and then, oh, Austria Hungary is allies with the Russians, so they got to attack.

[Ben Bolan]

That's why we call it Department of Defense.

[Ben Thompson]

Exactly. We're under attack. Okay, so 1787, war is declared between Austria, Hungary, and Russia on one side, and then the Turks on the other side. Now, Joseph II has this big army, and he's about to march them out into battle with the Turks. And the Turks, they have a lot of guys, you know, they have a big army. They're extremely powerful still. So when he assembles this big army and marches them to the border with the Turks, Frederick the Great marches a huge army to his border on the western side of Austria, Hungary, and all of these Catholic people from his kingdom that don't agree with him, they start getting a little bit more organized in a rebellion or a revolt type of situation, and they say, oh, Frederick, come help us. And so now he's got a problem. He marches a huge army to his border, and he's got to go back and march them back to these cities to put down these rebellions or to at least discourage these rebellions and discourage Frederick. So he doesn't actually get marching until a couple months after he wanted to, because he's got to go back and deal with the Austrian Netherlands and the unrest. And the Prussians. And the Prussians keep talking to the Turks, and they're like, maybe we should be allies, because I actually don Austria, Hungary to take some. Take your lands either I like for.

[Ben Bolan]

Everyone, because we're an audio podcast. I want to point out, Ben, you. You stroked your chin in the perfect way that people would conspire and, you know, maybe these. So there. So we see this. We see internal descent, right? We see internal chaos. We see, again, the problem of logistics, because every. I almost said monster. Every army marches on its stomach, right? So we're losing the equivalent of millions of dollars moving.

[Ben Thompson]

Yes. You're losing time, you're losing morale, you're losing people. People are deserting, right? And you have. This is all to kind of paint the picture of. You have this huge army that is not homogenous. It is made up of all different people with all different beliefs who with different languages, everything. You've got this huge army that's ready to fight the Turks. They're united in that we're going to fight the Turks, but they don't agree with each other. And so in the context of a friendly fire incident, that's an important piece to set up, I feel like.

[Ben Bolan]

Ooh, good call.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, for sure. Although it's like there's nothing like a common enemy to bring folks together. But in this case, it was. There were additional complications for sure.

[Ben Thompson]

Yes. Okay, so Joseph II marches out and he declares like, I am a military genius. I am in charge of the army. I'm going to ride out by myself, the enlightened despot at the front of the group. Mozart, you're coming with me. No, not really.

[Noel Brown]

I love it when they ride out into battle like that, thinking they're truly like invincible. Like just those moments of.

[Ben Thompson]

Of.

[Noel Brown]

Of hubris just always give me a little, A little bit of schadenfreude. There's nothing wrong with that.

[Ben Thompson]

You know, I was reading one account of it though, and I feel kind of like I was reading it and I was like, yeah. And he wasn't a military genius and he wasn't this. And he was like old and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, looked it up and he was like 47. And as we're recording for the day. I know as we record, today is my. The day of the recording. Today's my 45th birthday. No way. For real? Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

Barry the lead. Happy birthday.

[Ben Bolan]

Happy New Year, Ben.

[Ben Thompson]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Ben Bolan]

Now, you have never strolled out onto a theater of combat and in a burst of humility declared yourself a military genius.

[Ben Thompson]

I suppose that's true. It is a little old to start your military career. I feel like current soldiers my age are like generals, colonels and stuff.

[Ben Bolan]

Or retired. Look, man, or retired.

[Ben Thompson]

Yeah. 20 years. Right.

[Ben Bolan]

We practice. We practice positive, aggressive validation on this show. So.

[Ben Thompson]

However, it would be weird if I was like, I'm in charge of the army now. Follow me. I am a little old for that.

[Ben Bolan]

I think we would have to have a vote. Yeah. Yeah. We be. We be hanging out. We would. We might not be on the front lines with you, Ben, but. But Max, Noel and I would be, you know, on the scene.

[Ben Thompson]

He subscribed to the vlog. He subscribed to the YouTube channel.

[Noel Brown]

I'm always on the lookout for someone to blindly follow into battle. You know, it's just. It's a bucket list item of mine. So maybe you can make that happen.

[Ben Thompson]

Well, let's see how that turns out. Because before you add to that, let's.

[Ben Bolan]

Get a parable and a precedent. Hold the phone. Or rather hold the Hussar. This turned out to be a ongoing series, a two part series. Noel, I'm just having a great time. It's not just because Ben is named Ben. That guy. This guy's amazing.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. I really Love the Bens on this series. You guys are killing it.

[Ben Bolan]

Oh, no, no, no. We're killing it as a group effort. We've got the. We've got the Gnolls. We've got the Maxes. Speaking of, we'll play some.

[Noel Brown]

Maybe killing it was the wrong term. No friendly fire here, y'all.

[Ben Thompson]

We.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're. I like that. That's something we referenced on Daily Zeitgeist earlier. We're exploring it together, and we couldn't do it without the help of our amazing team, starting with our super producer, Mr. Max Williams.

[Noel Brown]

Ooh, Max Williams. Max voiced it on his own. Petard Williams.

[Ben Bolan]

Max the Hussar Williams. Shout out. Also to his biological brother who is back in town, our Bespoke composer, Alex Williams.

[Noel Brown]

Bespoke indeed. Huge thanks to Christopher Osiodis and Eve Jeffcoats here in spirit. Jonathan Strickland, the quizter, AJ Bahamas, James Jacobs, the puzzler, and Ben, Big thanks to you, man.

[Ben Bolan]

I love. I love hanging out with AJ Bahamas. And I love that we're never gonna explain that nickname. Check out the Puzzler. Also check out our rude dudes at Ridiculous Crime. And Noel, thanks to you, I can't wait to hear part two.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, let's see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[John Cameron Mitchell]

This is John Cameron Mitchell and my new fiction podcast series, Cancellation island stars Holly Hunter as Karen, a wellness influencer who launches a rehab for the recently cancelled. In the future, we will all be canceled for 15, 15 minutes. But don't worry, we'll take you from broke to woke or your money back. Cancellation Island's revolutionary rehab therapies, like bad touch football, anti racism, spin class, and mandatory ayahuasca ceremonies are designed to force the council to confront their worst impulses. But everything starts to fall apart when people start disappearing.

[Ben Bolan]

Karen, where have you brought us?

[Ben Thompson]

Us?

[John Cameron Mitchell]

Cancellation island, where a second chance might just be your last. Listen to Cancellation island on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben Bolan]

Hey, kids, it's me, Kevin Smith.

[Ben Thompson]

And it's me, Harley Quinn Smith.

[Noel Brown]

That's my daughter, man, who my wife has always said is just a beardless d Ckless version of me. And that's the name of our podcast, Beardless Me. I'm the old one.

[Ben Thompson]

I'm the young one.

[Noel Brown]

And every week, we try to make each other laugh really hard. Sounds innocent, doesn' a lot of cussing a lot of bad language. It's for adults only. Or listen to it with your kid. Could be a family show. We're not quite sure. We're still figuring it out.

[Ben Thompson]

It's a work in progress.

[Noel Brown]

Listen to Beardless me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben Thompson]

Do you remember what you said the first night I came over here?

[John Cameron Mitchell]

Ow.

[Ben Bolan]

Go slower.

[Ben Thompson]

From Blumhouse TV, iheart podcasts and ember 20 comes an all new fictional comedy podcast series. Join the flighty Damien Hearst as he unravels the mystery of his vanished boyfriend. I've been spending all my time looking for answers about what happened to Santi and what's the way to find a missing person? Sleep with everyone he knew, obviously. Listen to the hookup on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. How serious is youth vaping?

[Noel Brown]

Irreversible lung damage serious. 1 in 10 kids vape serious, which.

[Ben Thompson]

Warrants a serious conversation from a serious.

[Noel Brown]

Parental figure like yourself. Not the seriously know it all sports dad or the seriously smart podcaster.

[Ben Thompson]

It requires a serious conversation that is.

[Noel Brown]

Best had by you.

[Ben Thompson]

No, seriously, the best person to talk.

[Noel Brown]

To your child about vaping is you.

[Ben Thompson]

To start the conversation, visit talkaboutvaping.org, brought.

[Noel Brown]

To you by the American Lung association and the AD Council.