← Ridiculous History
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- [00:00]
Ben
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show, fellow ridiculous historians. Thank you as always so much for tuning in. We're not wearing hockey pads. Big shout out to our guest producer, Dylan the Chainsaw Fagan.
- [00:41]
Nolan
Is that your scary voice, Ben?
- [00:43]
Ben
Oh, that's actually my regular voice. I'm hitting from a helium balloon.
- [00:47]
Nolan
I love it. That is a real commitment to the bit and I respect and appreciate that. You are Ben, in fact, and I am Nolan. This is Ridiculous History, right?
- [00:57]
Ben
Yes. Yes, that's us from earlier. We had such a fantastic exploration of the triumvirate history of the phrase Bloody Mary, and I think we were both surprised by the unexpected turns that exploration took. And now we're talking about something another story with a lot of hidden history behind it. One of the most popular comic characters a of all time, everybody's favorite billionaire Bruce Wayne, AKA Batman.
- [01:32]
Nolan
It's coming to us from our research associate extraordinaire, Andrea. I don't think we've bestowed a nickname yet. Maybe we'll workshop that one. The last one we did from Andrea was about the origins of the word palooka and that had some awesome comics lore and history associated with it. And today is no different because it is introducing us to a character that many folks who are not deep comics nerds might not be familiar with. A guy named Milton Bill Finger.
- [01:57]
Ben
Yeah, Finger is an interesting surgeon.
- [01:59]
Nolan
It really is. This is an iHeart podcast. Possibility means you have a chance.
- [02:09]
Ben
Passion opens the door to all possibilities.
- [02:12]
Andrea
When I feel like anything's possible, I.
- [02:15]
Ben
Feel kind of giddy.
- [02:16]
Nolan
I want to be an astronaut, an.
- [02:18]
Ben
Artist, an actress to visit another country. All I need is a backpack and a pair of shoes and I'll find a way I'm able to do anything I set my mind to. I've never felt like more things are.
- [02:28]
Nolan
Possible than right now.
- [02:29]
Ben
In the right shoes, anything is possible.
- [02:31]
Nolan
Dsw countless shoes at bragworthy prices. Imagine the possibilities.
- [02:36]
Dylan the Chainsaw Fagan
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- [03:40]
Cindy Crawford
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- [04:09]
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- [04:43]
Ben
You know, if you're picking a Persona or a fake name, Finger is actually it's a brilliant choice because it's so weird that you would think no one chose that on purpose. Right?
- [04:55]
Nolan
Yeah, it would seem to be the case. Bilton Mill Finger. I'm leaving it. He passed away. When he passed away. Rather, he passed away in what you would consider obscurity. Long believed that his body was buried in a potter's field, which is like a pauper's grave you might refer to that as. But it wasn't until later that that history would remember Bill and give him his due as being truly one of the hidden hands in the creation of the Dark Knight.
- [05:28]
Ben
Yeah, yeah. And we'll set a bittersweet cinematic tone here. Later, history would learn that Bill Finger's son, Fred Finger, had amazing.
- [05:45]
Nolan
Stop it.
- [05:45]
Ben
Right.
- [05:46]
Nolan
Had Freddy Finger. Freddie got fingered.
- [05:49]
Ben
I remember. Well, Fred claimed his father's body. It wasn't placed in a potter's field. Instead, per his dad's wishes, Fred cremated his father's cadaver and then brought his ashes to Manzanita beach in Oregon. And he spread those ashes in the shape of a bat on the shoreline.
- [06:10]
Nolan
Oh, wow.
- [06:11]
Ben
That's some dark poetry.
- [06:13]
Nolan
It is indeed. And yeah, Andrea points out that when she first read that little detail, the song Kiss from a rose by Seal flashed through her mind and she said, shed a single tear. There used to be a graying tower alone on the sea. That's a banger of a song, by the way. It's contrary to popular belief, not written for the movie. It was on Seal's album, the self titled Seal album.
- [06:37]
Ben
That's just how he is, man.
- [06:38]
Nolan
Yeah. Have you seen the Sprite commercial where he is Seal as a seal singing Kiss from a rose?
- [06:44]
Ben
I loved it.
- [06:45]
Nolan
I did too, actually.
- [06:46]
Ben
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we all know that Batman is.
- [06:51]
Nolan
A fantastically fascinating character and fantastically money generating character.
- [06:59]
Ben
Oh yeah. And even in the world of fiction, he is phenomenally problematic big time because.
- [07:07]
Nolan
He how flawed he is, which is what makes him interesting and how human he is, which is also, I think what has always set him apart from other superheroes and the associated tropes is that he's like a gothed up, tortured dude taking perma revenge on the world in the form of baddies for the death of his parents.
- [07:26]
Ben
Yeah. Eddie's a billionaire also.
- [07:29]
Nolan
True brooding billionaire goth boy. Yep.
- [07:32]
Ben
Right. And he could fix. We'll get into it. But basically with his immense money from industries, he could fix systemic problems with Gotham City. But no, but no.
- [07:43]
Nolan
He needs someone to punch. Right. He needs someone to zip zow.
- [07:48]
Ben
Just find a mosh pit dude. Anyway, Bill Finger is creator of Batman. We all know and love Batman from Gotham City. He's also the. Bill is also the creator of Gotham City, by the way, as well as Catwoman and the Joker. He died, like you noted, Noel, in obscurity in 1974. And he was unlike his creation, Bruce Wayne. He was not well to do. He was penniless at this point. He had a creative partner called Kane.
- [08:19]
Nolan
This is not super, super far off from the Palooka story in that there were two kind of rival comics people, comics writers in. One of them got all the credit and couldn't draw a frame to save his life. If I'm totally spacing on their names, but do check out the Palooka episode that Andrea did as well. Really, really, really interesting stuff. Bob Kane is the name that you may be much more familiar with. That's the creative part. He had developed a red jumpsuit clad, domino mask wearing character that he dubbed the Batman, which has kind of come back. If I'm not mistaken, the Robert Pattinson movies, they're using the Batman again.
- [09:02]
Ben
And this gets so legalistic so quickly. Oh yeah, Kane's creation is the Bat Dash man.
- [09:09]
Nolan
Yes, of course, that's also true.
- [09:11]
Ben
A lawyer just got very excited.
- [09:13]
Nolan
Yeah, lawyers, they love their dashes. Definitely living a bit of a Bruce Wayne esque existence full of opulence, wealth, international acclaim. When Kane passed away in 1998, he had this epitaph carved on his tombstone. Bob Kane, Bruce Wayne, Batman, they are one in the same.
- [09:32]
Ben
I like an internal rhyme.
- [09:34]
Nolan
It's not bad. I like a rhyming epitaph.
- [09:37]
Ben
It's true. And Andrea pulls all these great sources. Andrea has shared with us a depiction of Batman without a dash and Bat Dashman and tells us that how these two luminaries came to disagree and make such similar characters is indeed a bit of history that gets ridiculous. So let's get to it. Right? It's 1938. Oh, this will also. I just remembered. This will remind a lot of folks about our Captain Marvel episode.
- [10:09]
Nolan
Also true. A banger from research associate Jeff the Jeffman Bartlett. I like that.
- [10:16]
Ben
Or factor G as he pronounced.
- [10:18]
Nolan
Oh, yeah, yeah, there we go. Forgot about factor G. So it's 1938 like you said. Bob Kane's already established in the world of comics. He is offering an aspiring writer, again, very similar to the Palooka story, a shot to be. This guy's a part time shoe salesman. That is one. But yeah, a part time shoe salesman just seems like getting insult to injury. No shade on anyone that sells shoes for.
- [10:41]
Ben
I know it probably means he works 25 hours a week or something like.
- [10:45]
Nolan
That and probably has multiple jobs.
- [10:47]
Ben
But I'd love it if part time shoe salesman means he only sells right shoes.
- [10:52]
Nolan
That'll be funny.
- [10:55]
Ben
You gotta go across the street for the other one.
- [10:57]
Nolan
But yeah, Kane gives this fellow a way out of the shoe grind. Gives him a job ghostwriting strips, meaning of course, that he's not being credited. Which is an interesting sort of, what's the word? Foreshadowing here with adventure comics. Finger, being a bit self taught, was very smart, well read and had the chops to get it done. He made an impression on Kane from the get go.
- [11:22]
Ben
Yeah. And so I love that you're pointing out the similarities with the Palookaville rivalry here. So this guy Finger has made a great impression on Daddy Kane. At a party where they met, Big Daddy came.
- [11:36]
Nolan
Isn't that a rapper? That's a rapper, right?
- [11:38]
Ben
Yes, it is. Yes. And the success of Superman really informs the comic industry.
- [11:45]
Nolan
Oh, feeding frenzy. Everyone's looking to match that freak. You know, we got to get something that's going to rival Superman because it is an absolute feeding frenzy for new superhero type. I don't think they were even calling them that yet.
- [11:59]
Ben
At this point, it's number one with a bullet. You know, the son of Krypton.
- [12:03]
Nolan
Action comics.
- [12:04]
Ben
Number one with a bullet, yes, very much so. And editors throughout the industry are already being very J. Jonah Jameson meme about this. They're chopping their cigars, they're pounding the desk. Get me my own Superman, kid.
- [12:18]
Nolan
Exactly.
- [12:20]
Ben
So Cain responds, and this leads him to create the Bat Dash Man. And he took his inspiration from a film from the 1930s called the Bat Whispers, which I haven't seen, not to.
- [12:33]
Nolan
Be confused with the Bat Whisperer, which is a different film entirely and very heartwarming. So Kane had this idea for the character, but he knew it needed a little bit more fleshing out. And that's where Finger came in. He was the flesh man. He was the guy that added a little meat to the bones. And Kane was more the idea man, it would seem. Right. Hearing it directly from Finger. Cain had an idea for a character called Batman. In this point in quotes here. Batman with no spaces or dashes. And he'd like me to see the drawings. I went over to Kane's, and he had drawn a character which very much looked like Superman with kind of reddish tights that were later squeezed out into a bucket to make pink lemonade. Sorry, I'm really harping on that one. I don't know why. Rise of the twins Haunting me. It's haunting me.
- [13:18]
Ben
Check out that episode. We gotta have Casey back on too.
- [13:21]
Nolan
Oh, we need to. We must. It's high time, I believe he says, with boots and the fur. No gloves, no gauntlets. With a small domino mask swinging on a rope. He had two stiff wings. And in the image that Andrea attached here, it is a comics panel of two fellows looking at a conspiracy type board, like the red thread thing with Charlie Day or whatever. And on one side we've got Batman as we know it. The other side we've got the Bat Dash man with the red tights and the kind of bat wing resembling rigid wings that he's describing. Yeah, so this is all like, the.
- [13:59]
Ben
Glider is blonde, by the way.
- [14:01]
Nolan
Batman is blonde. And under it was a big sign. Batman. And that's interesting, though, because, yeah, there is a little discrepancy in these stories about the provenance of the name. Because we have heard from other sources that this version that Kane created was the Bat Dash Man. But then coming from Finger himself, he's calling it Batman.
- [14:23]
Ben
Yeah. And this is interesting. So Finger looks at this, and it's common for any of us in creative circles, when your friends ask you for advice, you always have to check and say, what do you want? Do you want me to tell you how I feel about it, or do you want specific notes? Right. Do you want suggestions? Or do you want me to. Or do you just want to show it to someone? Finger probably puts his finger to his chin and looks at this.
- [14:51]
Nolan
It was his signature move. Yes, of course. The finger. Finger.
- [14:55]
Ben
Yeah. Okay. Okay. And then he says, I've got a couple of notes, and just like a studio exec, or no offense to the three of us, an executive producer, his couple of notes comment means he wants to change almost everything. He starts with a costume, and he says, let's give him a cowl instead of this. Instead of this domino mask, let's make the suit darker. Because when you think of bats, you think of nighttime. And he looks at the creation by Lee Falk, the Phantom. And so he says, okay, we're gonna take Kane's the Batman and we're gonna morph it into the more modern Batman we know today. Finger also generates the backstory, because the way history tells it, it seems like Kane was inspired to do something like but not quite Superman and pass the idea of an association with bats. He hadn't really thought through the lore. And that's where the writer Finger comes in. He says, okay, what does this guy do when he's not dressed like this? Well, let's make him interesting. His name is Bruce Wayne, and I'm taking that from Robert the Bruce, a Scottish king of old.
- [16:07]
Nolan
The Bruce.
- [16:08]
Ben
Yeah. Apparently, I did not know this bit of history. Even as a comic nerd, apparently Finger chose the last name Wayne because it suggested gentry and colonialism.
- [16:24]
Nolan
Yeah, no, I didn't know that either. And another thing that I didn't know this word cowl. I've only really ever heard it associated with the bat helmet or whatever you want to call it. And I want to ask you, Ben, I put this you to. Are all cowls?
- [16:40]
Ben
Hoods?
- [16:41]
Nolan
Are some hoods. Cowls? Is there a crossover between hood and cowl? What doth a cowl make?
- [16:47]
Ben
Yeah, yeah, I think there's a crossover. I think technically it's an overall garment, and it comes from monastic practices for sure.
- [16:57]
Nolan
Definitely monkish.
- [16:59]
Ben
Like a robe with a hood is technically a cowl, but often and perhaps incorrectly, I hear it used to mean just the headpiece.
- [17:08]
Nolan
That's what I'm thinking. And that to me is the distinction. And you can't. You definitely see it's almost like a detachable hood that has drapes that go over the shoulders as well, which is totally what the Batman helmet hat cowl is. It's got the hood part and then it goes down over the shoulders and kind of down onto the chest a little bit, depending on the version. Right.
- [17:29]
Ben
Yeah. So maybe that's it. I think we're onto something. It's technically a cowl because it goes over the clavicle. Yeah, right.
- [17:35]
Nolan
Sure.
- [17:35]
Ben
Extends past the. Okay, let's go with it.
- [17:38]
Nolan
Let's go with it. Yeah, sorry I had to take that little etymological diversion there.
- [17:44]
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- [18:44]
Dylan the Chainsaw Fagan
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- [19:46]
Andrea
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- [20:21]
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- [20:40]
Ben
It's all there.
- [20:42]
Unknown
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- [21:07]
Ben
Ebay.
- [21:08]
Unknown
Things people love.
- [21:15]
Ben
So Finger says. I tried Bruce Adams, I tried Bruce Hancock. Then I thought of Mad Anthony Wayne.
- [21:24]
Nolan
Ooh, Mad Anthony. What's his deal, right?
- [21:29]
Ben
I love how he's saying that. It's such a casual, of course, Matt Anthony Wayne tone.
- [21:34]
Nolan
Yeah, everybody knows about Matt Anthony.
- [21:36]
Ben
I'm sure there are a lot of history buffs who are scandalized right now. So, Noel and Chainsaw and I learned that Mad Anthony Wayne is a street name for an American soldier and founding father named Anthony Wayne.
- [21:52]
Nolan
Whoa. Who looks exactly like George Washington. Yes. I guess a lot of cats probably looked like that back in those days. But it is uncanny. Like the way he wears his hat, his posture, his powdered wig. But again, probably not the most uncommon garb. But it's really weird. Now I'm looking at all these portraits. It's got a general outfit. Yeah. President. Wait a second. Sorry, y'. All. I went down a quick off mic Rabbit Hole. I'm. Was Matt Anthony Wayne secretly the alter ego of George Washington?
- [22:31]
Ben
Right.
- [22:32]
Nolan
It would be appropriate for the story, but no, he was his own person. He was the fifth senior officer of the United States army, hence the military garb. And he did serve under President George Washington, who, you know, he set the tone for fashion choices.
- [22:45]
Ben
But did you ever see them in the same room at the same time?
- [22:49]
Nolan
Never did. Never did.
- [22:51]
Ben
We definitely didn't because we weren't there. But. Okay, so our, our buddy Finger, clearly a well read guy, knows a lot about history. He's taking inspiration for the name Bruce Wayne from history and he says, look, I'm combining this freedom fighter, Robert the Bruce, with this crazy Revolutionary War hero. And that's perfect for Batman. This is a wealthy dilettante, a playboy by day, but at night he's supe serious. He's superhumanly serious. He's a vigilante. He battles crime. And he also doesn't have people tell you he doesn't have superpowers. I've whinged about this on stuff they don't want you to know at length. Being a billionaire is a superpower.
- [23:40]
Nolan
He was born on third at the very least. Yeah, for sure. So it is cool. Though I still would argue that it is an interesting foible. Let's just say that the guy is a bit of a. A human man with flaws, and he can't just vaporize you with a look like Superman can do. So it did make him a little bit more of an everyman, relatively speaking, despite the billionaire of it all. Finger conceived of Wayne being like a detective with powers of deduction and all of that. Like a Sherlock Holmes type figure. And per Cain in a documentary many decades, Finger was a contributing force on Batman right from the beginning. This is a lot of revisionist history from Kane that we're gonna get into when he kind of had a bit of a change of heart or a pang of conscience. I made Batman a superhero vigilante when I first created him. Bill turned him into a scientific detective. I mean, obviously DC Comics stands for detective comics, so just putting that out there.
- [24:45]
Ben
It's also cool to see that. But this bears echoes of other earlier comic strip heroes who were things like superpowered doctors or super scientists. So there is a lineage there that's fascinating. Maybe we can recommend some books to learn more about this. Check out the Steranko History of Comics. This is where Finger talks at length about some of his creations, including Gotham City. Okay, I'll say this. DC has a mixed bag hit or miss Record with naming fictional cities. I think Metropolis and Gotham are probably the best of the bunch.
- [25:25]
Nolan
What are some bad examples? I don't think I'm deep enough to.
- [25:28]
Ben
Know things like Central City, Key City.
- [25:32]
Nolan
Yeah, okay, got it. Not the best. Yeah. Gotham is awesome because it is very much New York, but it's not called New York. It's New York, but not New York. It's almost this, like, I mean, let's just say it gothed up version of New York and my favorite depiction of it. I'm not deep into the comics, but I love the Tim Burton Batman version of Gotham City. I think it rules.
- [25:56]
Ben
Yeah. I'd like more Danny DeVito as the Penguin.
- [26:01]
Nolan
I think it's great.
- [26:02]
Ben
The new Penguin series was really good.
- [26:04]
Nolan
I was very good. And I love the Robert Pattinson the Batman quite a lot.
- [26:08]
Ben
Oh, yeah. Did you see that deleted scene with the Joker spoilers?
- [26:11]
Nolan
It's good. Yeah, it's good.
- [26:12]
Ben
Yeah, it's great.
- [26:12]
Nolan
It's very good.
- [26:13]
Ben
Well, okay. Well, we want you to know how excellent the end result was and how close Gotham City came to being called Civic City or Coast City or Capital City. So the guy Finger literally goes to a phone book for New York City and flips through the pages, he sees a listing for Gotham Jewelers, and he says, that's it. Gotham City. We can't straight up call it New York, even though it is New York Noir. We can't call it New York because we wanted anybody in any city to identify with this.
- [26:52]
Nolan
So people do refer to New York as Gotham sometimes. Is that a direct reference to Batman? Because this Gotham Jewelers, that wasn't already a term used to describe New York. Gotham in this respect, I imagine, was maybe a family name or some other kind of descriptive. I think the use of Gotham to describe New York came later and is maybe a direct reference to its use in Batman.
- [27:15]
Ben
You know, I think the vast majority of us associate Gotham with New York because of Batman and the Batman universe. But if you go to untappedcities.com and look at untapped New York, we see that the emergence of the nickname Gotham Ford New York dates Back to a November 11, 1807 issue of, I guess a just for laughs kind of satirical Mad magazine thing called that. Yeah, yeah.
- [27:46]
Nolan
From our boy, Washington Irving, who I believe wrote the Headless Horseman. He came up with all of that Sleepy Hollow, all that stuff. Very cool. Yeah, I saw that too, Ben. That's really glad we looked at that at the same time.
- [27:58]
Ben
And the narrator of Irving's history of New York is Diedrich Knickerbocker.
- [28:04]
Nolan
No, it's not. Is that true?
- [28:05]
Ben
Yes. Yes.
- [28:06]
Nolan
Amazing. Full circle. This is where the magic happens, Ben. I love it. So Gotham City is born. And that was because of a direct input from our boy Finger. He's also quite adept at coming up with villain ideas and helping to shape maybe some of Kane's broader ideas.
- [28:27]
Ben
Yeah. Finger writes the first issue of the Batman comic book series in which we are introduced to the Joker and the Catwoman. And then Finger goes on to create the concept of the Batcave and the Batmobile and then some.
- [28:43]
Nolan
Dan, have you seen in the first issue of Sandman, which was much more trying to tie it in with the DC universe, There's a brief Batman moment where it shows the Batcave with these oversized penn. And there's a T. Rex or something. And I guess that's a reference to this old timey version of the Batcave. And I'm only just now putting that together because I was very confused when I first saw that because I was not familiar with the early Batman comics and that lore.
- [29:11]
Ben
Yeah, yeah. And it's sort of a. I think it's a nod to trophies he's collected from weird supervillains. DC also went crazy on supervillains that. That maybe don't necessarily have an extraordinary ability, but they have gadgets or they're just really hung up on something. Like the Mad Hatter or Calendar Man.
- [29:33]
Nolan
Calendar Man. Calendar Man. That sounds like the dullest supervillain ever. What is he just, like, really into leap year? Like, what's his beef?
- [29:44]
Ben
He commits crimes that are, like, holiday themed.
- [29:48]
Nolan
Okay.
- [29:49]
Ben
Or he plays.
- [29:49]
Nolan
Is that true? Are you making this up? Are you pulling my leg?
- [29:52]
Ben
I swear. Dude, this is Ben. This is the. There was a reboot of Calendar man that turned him into a serial killer.
- [29:59]
Nolan
Interesting.
- [30:00]
Ben
Which was darker. Made a lot more sense.
- [30:02]
Nolan
Apparently in the new James Gunn Bat Superman. That's being really divisive already. Some of the early reviews, some people are not a fan. But it does apparently lean more into some of these absurd, kind of early kind of schlocky comics y stuff. It's got, like, Mr. Terrific and a lot of these sort of lesser, you know, characters that maybe you're not familiar with. I want you to see it. There's a dog. Apparently a super dog. I did just want to say, Ben, I thought I heard a really interesting quote from the singer who's. Her name is Aurora, and she's a very quirky little Icelandic lady and very bjork. Esque, but in her own right. She's talented. She had this to say. How come supervillains are always trying to change things and superheroes are always trying to keep them things the same?
- [30:49]
Ben
Oh, that's great. I love that. Thanks for sharing that.
- [30:52]
Nolan
I thought that was pretty good.
- [30:54]
Ben
Yeah.
- [30:54]
Nolan
Because it's true. Yeah.
- [30:56]
Ben
Yeah. I think Bill Finger would like that.
- [30:58]
Nolan
I think he would, too.
- [30:59]
Ben
So Bill goes on to create the Scarecrow, the Penguin, Commissioner Gordon, and of course, Batman's sidekick, Robin, the Boy Wonder.
- [31:10]
Nolan
He needed a bit of a Watson figure, didn't he?
- [31:13]
Ben
Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right. And this is where we start to see these creators come to not blows, but come to a divergence point. Our buddy Kane, he says, look, Robin, his origin should parallel the origin of Batman. And then Finger says, I hear you, but let's make his parents circus performers. They can still get murdered. I know that's important to you, but they're murdered during a trapeze act.
- [31:43]
Nolan
Okay, cool. Bit of a Cirque du Soleil mishap. It's true. And if there is one version of that that I will always remember, it is from a very bad Batman movie, Batman and Robin. But I do remember the way it's depicted. His parents, you know, eating in on the trapeze.
- [32:01]
Ben
Is that the one where they gave the. Is that the one where they put nipples on the suits?
- [32:05]
Nolan
They put nipples on the suits. Nipples on a breastplate.
- [32:08]
Ben
It's true.
- [32:09]
Nolan
Yeah. All of those. Yann DeBont, I think that's the guy that directed it, if I'm not mistaken.
- [32:14]
Ben
Well, it's tough to work in entertainment.
- [32:17]
Nolan
So making movies is hard.
- [32:19]
Ben
Yeah, yeah. We're being diplomatic.
- [32:22]
Nolan
No, sorry. Not Jan de Bont. It is Joel Schumacher. He's the one. He's the one who did the nipples on the Batsuit Batman movies.
- [32:32]
Ben
Yeah. And it's tough to work in entertainment. It's making. Making a movie is hard. So back to Cain and Finger. Finger says, look, Robin is an outgrowth of a conversation I have with Bob. Bob Kane. And he describes the excellent comparison you made earlier. He says, Batman is a combination of Douglas Fairbanks and Sherlock Holmes. Holmes has a Watson, and this is what sticks out. Finger is not necessarily chasing the best story here. He's chasing a practical problem. He says, look, Batman doesn't have anyone to talk to.
- [33:09]
Nolan
Do we not have an Alfred yet? At this point?
- [33:11]
Ben
We don't have an Alfred just yet.
- [33:12]
Nolan
Interesting. Okay.
- [33:13]
Ben
You know, that's a great question, Noel. I'm not sure where we have an Alfred just yet, but we know that Alfred is usually in Wayne Manor. Right. Or in the Batcave. So when Batman's out busting heads and doing investigations, he's always having an interior monologue and finger's like we gotta get, get this guy someone to talk to.
- [33:34]
Nolan
Because otherwise it would appear that Robin came before Alfred. So he literally had nobody. Yeah, he was all alone in his giant mansion.
- [33:42]
Ben
And also, Robin is great marketing for the demographic. Right.
- [33:47]
Nolan
Of absolutely. Circus performers.
- [33:50]
Ben
Circus performers.
- [33:55]
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Dylan the Chainsaw Fagan
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- [35:56]
Andrea
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- [36:28]
Nolan
Picture this. You're halfway through a DIY car fix tools scattered everywhere, and boom. You realize you're missing a part.
- [36:35]
Ben
It's okay because, you know, whatever it is, it's on ebay.
- [36:40]
Nolan
They've got everything. Brakes, headlights, cold air intakes, whatever you need.
- [36:44]
Ben
And it's guaranteed to fit. Which means no more crossing your fingers and hoping you ordered the right thing.
- [36:51]
Nolan
All the parts you need at prices you'll love.
- [36:54]
Ben
Guaranteed to fit every time.
- [36:56]
Nolan
Ebay. Things people love.
- [37:03]
Ben
Speaking of circuses, let's go to the Clown Prince of Crime, One of the most well known comic book vill of all time, and arguably a dark mirror of Batman because he is brilliant. He also loves gadgets and he also has no superhuman powers.
- [37:22]
Nolan
Yeah, and I'm really into the imagery. I haven't read a ton of them. I've read a few of the stories. But there is a alternate universe version of the Joker that I believe is called the One who Laughs or something along those lines. Or maybe that's the name of the series. But he's got like, he's all SNM ed out and has like spikes around his eyes. He looks like a fricking Hellraiser character.
- [37:47]
Ben
Yeah, that's the dark version of Bruce Wayne who got poisoned by Joker's Joker gas, his evil laughing gas. And it drove that Bruce Wayne crazy. Right.
- [38:01]
Nolan
And it's the Batman who Laughs is what it's called. So obviously a reference to this whole situation where inspiration was taken from a. A film version of Alexandre Dumas and Victor Hugo. It was, I believe, a silent film. And so I think I'm getting a little confused here because there are some overlapping versions of this. What they're talking about is a series of English translations of Alexandre Dumas and Victor Hugo. And the volume that they had, they were referring to was called the man who Laughs, which is originally published under the title by the Order of the King.
- [38:42]
Ben
Yeah, and by this point, there have been some adaptations of the show. We know Finger's looking at the book, but he's also probably aware, him and Kane both, of the film adaptation, which I think we're both more familiar with the 1928 the man who Laughs.
- [38:59]
Nolan
And he looks like the Joker. I mean, the actor portraying him here, it's a German expressionist film and looks it. I mean, it's very cabinet of Dr. Caligari type vibe by Carl Laemmle. And the actor portraying this character is named Conrad Veidt. And he has this rictus grin and even the same hairline and kind of puffy hairdo that the Joker ultimately had. Not green, though, or wearing makeup. Joker makeup.
- [39:32]
Ben
Right. No, he's just. He's had an operation that affixes that rictus smile.
- [39:37]
Nolan
Really creepy.
- [39:38]
Ben
It's super creepy. I'm into it. Also, Bill Finger is only looking at these comparisons or inspirations because according to him, he talked about the idea of a clown prince of crime with Bob Kane. Bob made a sketch that did not look like a Joker. It looked more like a clown. And so he and Bob worked together. He gave Bob this picture, the man who Laughs. And then Bob takes that as an inspiration or a starting point. A reference is the word we'd use in art. And he starts working over the face. He says, okay, he'll be a little bit clown, like so. White face, red lips, green hair, but not all the way clown. You know, he has a regular nose.
- [40:27]
Nolan
Exactly. No, exactly. Not the honk, honk nose of classic circus clowns. Finger has this kind of scrapbook idea, little black book situation full of random facts, newspaper clippings and notes that he could use in future Batman stories. He would ride the bus every day to get where he was going and take in the New York Cityscapes, which further fueled the inspiration for Gotham. The Waynes family's tragic demise and the clashes between Batman and the underbelly of Gotham were absolutely a product of this solitary existence that Finger led.
- [41:08]
Ben
Exactly. And this state of isolation is Finger's inspiration. In some ways, this gives Cain the opportunity to fully put himself in the limelight. So, you know, there are some creative duos where one. Maybe Empire of the sun is a good comparison. Remember that band from Perth?
- [41:31]
Nolan
I like Empire of the Sun. I love it.
- [41:33]
Ben
Yeah. It's two guys. Yeah.
- [41:35]
Nolan
Dancy kind of stuff.
- [41:36]
Ben
Yeah. But one guy is very much in the forefront. Right. And he's the big theatrical draw. And they're friends, they're great musicians. They just have a different approach to the public. And that's what we see with Kane and Finger. Finger is kind of hiding away and Kane is walking into the limelight and. And talking about Batman. Right. And it Seems that over time, Kane starts to purposely push Finger further into.
- [42:07]
Nolan
The background, which is kind of borderline beginning to push him out.
- [42:13]
Ben
Yeah, it's also ungrateful because Batman wouldn't exist without Finger. Right. He figured out a lot of things that were key to Batman's success. But Caden was effective with his fans. He would show up in an expensive suit or get this folks, a cowl. And then he wrote a self aggrandizing autobiography. That kind of reminds me of the way Edgar Allan Poe would write very highfaluting explanations of his poems like Nevermore and so on. It's worth a read if you want.
- [42:50]
Nolan
No, for sure, I'll check it out.
- [42:52]
Ben
Apparently though, he does cross over to the dark side because Kane's Kane becomes accused of passing off other people's oil paintings of Batman as his own work.
- [43:04]
Nolan
See, this is again another parallel from the Palooka story. That guy was taking a lot of credit where credit was most certainly not due. But, you know, his actions ultimately led to him being in the catbird seat. As far as, you know, the financial successes of Batman as a piece of intellectual property that would prove to be incredibly valuable. Andrea puts it that Cain villainously executed deals and negotiations with the explicit purpose of keeping Finger out of said deals, per comic book historian Arlen Schumer. Unfortunately, the deal happened because Bob Kane had the lawyer father and Bill Finger was shy. Bob Kane went in and his father made sure that his name was. That's how Bill Finger ended up getting shunted away from his co creation.
- [43:57]
Ben
Terrible. You hate to see it, you know, because so much of creativity is collaboration. DC Comics said, okay, we love this. We need our own Superman comics.
- [44:09]
Nolan
We sure do.
- [44:11]
Ben
We need some more of this. And so they say, we're going to publish the Batman comics for you. And Kane makes sure that he is the only one who gets to showcase Batman to dc. He's the guy who gets to talk with the big execs about this character. And under the advice of again, his father, who is an attorney, he negotiates sole credit as the creator of Batman and a percentage of everything DC Comics may license the character on in the future. This is a goldmine. Batman works out. Kane amasses $10 million throughout his life. And in the same time, in doing so, he has sacrificed the guy who made him successful. His former pal Bill Finger is relegated to obscurity. Kane draws the comics. He also credits himself as the writer. And Finger is nothing more than a ghostwriter. Nobody really knew about this when they're reading comics at the time they're just thinking, this Bill Kane guy, he's a real auteur in the comic world. And it's not until 1965 that Bill Finger gets named as co creator in something I didn't know existed. A fanzine dedicated to Batman. So not part of dc, just a guy named Jerry Bales, who loves Batman so much that he makes a magazine about how he loves Batman. Man, it's a little meta.
- [45:42]
Nolan
It is meta. And just a quick mention, I'm a big fan of the podcast of the Ringer Network, like the Big Picture and the Watch. And if you want to get into some Batman deep dives, there is a podcast called the House of R that has an episode called literally the Batman Deep Dive, where Joanna Robinson, who's one of my favorite hosts on the network, and her co host, male, dig deep into the history of DC Comics and Gotham's underbelly.
- [46:12]
Ben
This is so weird because now that you mentioned it, you inspired me. Just to check on the fly here on air, I found a list of Multiple Batman podcasts. 20 best Batman podcast. Wow. Holy RSS feed.
- [46:29]
Nolan
Batman indeed.
- [46:32]
Ben
I didn't know there were so many out there. Well, that's cool, man. Yeah, check it out. Let us know what you think. We know that by the mid-1960s, as more audience members are learning about the existence of Bill Finger, we see that he makes a rare appearance in New York City. Actually, people know about him because this notoriously shy guy does actually show up in public. And that's what inspires the digging into the story. He's at the New York City Comic Con at. And afterwards, there's an article in this Batman fanzine called if the Truth Be Known or A Finger in Every Plot. And it talks about how we were misled, how Cain was not the one man army of Batman, but did indeed have a lot of help from a guy you've never heard of named Bill Finger.
- [47:26]
Nolan
And Kane responded with his own angry letter condemning Finger's claim to Batman, stating, bill Finger has given out the impression that he, and not myself, created the Batman as well as Robin and all the other leading villains and characters. This statement is fraudulent and entirely untrue. This is myth. The truth is that Bill Finger is taking credit for much more than he deserves. And I refute much of his statements here in print.
- [47:55]
Ben
Yeah, he says this is so palooka. The only proof I need to back my statement is that if Bill co authored and conceived the idea either with me or before me, then he would most certainly have a byline on the strip, along with my name. It's been 25 years now. And truthfully, time sometimes blurs the memory and it's difficult to separate at times. So that I cannot blame Bill too much. If at times his memory clouds. I'll say it. I don't. You know what I know Good letter writer, PG 13. But what a D. It is a move for sure.
- [48:35]
Nolan
But I just. I do stand by. I do love old school letter feuds.
- [48:40]
Ben
Oh, the women vigor.
- [48:41]
Nolan
I love that you don't write like this anymore.
- [48:44]
Ben
Insolence is boorish and shall not stand.
- [48:47]
Nolan
Indeed. No, it shall not.
- [48:49]
Ben
Yes. Okay, there is a big problem here because that one article shouting out Finger is pretty much the only voice in the ocean of misinformation. And Finger passes away in obscurity, very much isolated in 1974, as we mentioned, his heart gives out. Kane lives long enough to see the box office film adaptations of Batman and.
- [49:19]
Nolan
It'S banging depiction of Gotham City, which, as we know, very much a product of the imagination of Fingers and his solitary journeys throughout New York City on the bus.
- [49:36]
Ben
Oh, gosh, what a beautiful image. And I think we're both fans of being strangers in a strange land. I just love being out in an unfamiliar place and soaking it in. Anyway, for one reason or another. Perhaps he's mellowing with age. Perhaps he sees the massive cinematic success of Batman. We don't know why, but Kane develops a guilty conscience of sorts. And he later says, bill Finger and I created the Joker. Bill was the writer. Jerry Robinson came to me with a playing card of the Joker. That's the way I sum it up. And then he shouts out the man who laughs, just like we did. And he's saying this because he wants people to realize that he and Bill created the Joker, not this guy, Jerry Robinson.
- [50:24]
Nolan
So only now does he give credit where credit is due to, like, get rid of the secret.
- [50:31]
Ben
Right, Exactly. And he says that if he could do this all over again, he would give Bill Finger his due credit on Batman. And he says, now that my longtime friend and collaborator is gone, I must admit that Bill never received the fame and recognition he deserved. He was an unsung hero. I often tell my wife, if I could go back 15 years before he died, I would like to say, I'll put your name on it now. You deserve it.
- [51:00]
Nolan
How big of you. Wait till he dies.
- [51:02]
Ben
Yeah. $10 million short. Many years too late.
- [51:07]
Nolan
Yeah. Not a pauper's grave, but certainly, I mean, come on. Yeah. But you know, D.C. did eventually follow suit. They Refused for a long time to credit finger. But in 2012, after the release of a biographical graphic novel, Bill the Boy Wonder, about Finger's life by a French author, Mark Tyler Nobleman, also a Hulu documentary that was released based on Nobleman's book, DC finally gave in and decided to give credit to Finger as co creator to Batman. After 76 years, Finger's name does finally appear on the COVID of every Batman comics issue and future TV and film adaptations that would be released from that point on. So bit of a happy ending there, if not in dude's lifetime.
- [51:53]
Ben
Yeah, which happens so often in the creative arts. We have a joke in the world of writers. How do you become a successful writer?
- [52:04]
Nolan
Die, unfortunately. And the same with a lot of times with painters and many brilliant people who are not appreciated in their lifetime. But so it goes. In 2017, Finger is honored with a street being named after him in New York City. East and 192nd Street Way uptown between Grand Concourse and Valentine Avenue was renamed.
- [52:30]
Ben
Bill Finger Way, which here's what I like about this. That is such an interesting name for a street.
- [52:37]
Nolan
Oh, this is the Bronx. Yeah, this is the Bronx.
- [52:39]
Ben
That you would see that street name and then if you look it up, you will learn the hidden history of Batman.
- [52:46]
Nolan
That's true.
- [52:47]
Ben
That's kind of cool.
- [52:48]
Nolan
I'm down with that. No, it's cool. I like it when they name streets after creative people. Like there's the Beastie Boys, I want to say. Got a street in New York named after them recently. So there you go. Finger's name, first reported by the South Bronx Blog, welcome to the Bronx. Appears blocks from PO park, where Kane and Finger would sometimes hang out to talk about Dark Knight business and mythos.
- [53:13]
Ben
Oh, and this gives us some breaking news. This happened just yesterday. We're recording on Thursday, July 10th. But Jack Kirby, the legendary creator for Marvel, he just had two streets named after him, like this week. Maybe that's because the Fantastic Four film is coming out soon.
- [53:34]
Nolan
I think that must be true. Ben, there is an origin story Fantastic Four movie coming out that looks like a lot of fun.
- [53:40]
Ben
Agreed. And we hope you've had a lot of fun traveling down down this road with us through the hidden history of Gotham and Batman and the man who laughs. Big thanks to our super producer, Max Williams, who will be returning tatted up. Big thanks to our guest super producer, Dylan the Chainsaw Fagan. Who else? Who else?
- [54:01]
Nolan
Oh, boy. Christopher Steve, Jeff Coates here in spirit. Jonathan Strickland, the quizter. AJ Bahamas Jacobs, the puzzler.
- [54:08]
Ben
And of course, our dear rude dudes of ridiculous crime. If you dig us, you'll dig them. Join us for our classic coming out this weekend as well as our further adventures in the weeks and days to come.
- [54:24]
Nolan
We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
- [54:40]
Dylan the Chainsaw Fagan
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Andrea
Why is this taking so long?
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Ben
This thing is ancient.
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Whoa.
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Andrea
This thing moves.
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Nolan
Learn more@mots.com Honestly, honestly, honestly.
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