CLASSIC: Feral Children and the True Story Behind The Jungle Book

Summary

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Ridiculous History Podcast

Episode: CLASSIC: Feral Children and the True Story Behind The Jungle Book

Date: September 6, 2025
Hosts: Ben Bowlin & Noel Brown

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Episode Overview

This classic episode dives into the real-life stories that inspired Rudyard Kipling’s The Jungle Book, focusing on the phenomenon of “feral children”—kids raised in the wild by animals, often with tragic origins. Ben and Noel explore true cases like Dina Sanichar, the so-called “wolf boy” of India, as well as other documented and alleged instances of feral children throughout history. The hosts critically discuss the stories’ cultural and colonial overtones, the science of language and social development, and the ethical quandaries in “rescuing” such children.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Kipling, The Jungle Book, and Colonial Narratives

• Rudyard Kipling’s Character: The hosts open by noting Kipling’s checkered legacy, describing him as "not a great dude as a person" (Ben, 00:17) but one whose works have had enduring impact.
• Inspiration for Mowgli: Kipling was reportedly inspired by stories of real feral children, particularly Dina Sanichar (Noel, 00:40).
• Imperialist Underpinnings:
  • “The Jungle Book is an amazing story... But you're right, Noel. The story of Dina Sanachar... takes us to a part of India called Uttar Pradesh... in 1872” (Ben, 06:00).
  • The hosts acknowledge that The Jungle Book was shaped by colonialist and “white man’s burden” ideology.
  • “He is also the author of a poem called the White Man's Burden. And this was not a sarcastic comment on his part...” (Ben, 21:08)
  • “British forces... you cannot subjugate people... and then say, oh, they are equal to us. You have to say that we are somehow better. We are somehow more human...” (Ben, 21:46)

2. The Tragic True Story of Dina Sanichar

• Discovery and Rescue:
  • In 1872, hunters in Uttar Pradesh, India, found a “man cub” running on all fours with wolves. They smoked the wolves out and brought the child to an orphanage run by Father Earhart (Ben & Noel, 06:40-08:29).
  • The boy was named “Dina Sanichar”; “Sanichar” means Saturday, the day he was found (Noel, 08:44).
• Life at the Orphanage:
  • “Father Earhart says... [Sanichar] is undoubtedly what [is] called pagal, meaning idiotic or slow. But he says... [he] still shows signs of reason and sometimes actual shrewdness.” (Ben, 09:24)
  • The hosts explain the critical window for language development was missed, making socialization extremely difficult: “Developing any kind of spoken language or being assimilated... was going to be nigh on impossible.” (Noel, 10:06)
  • Sanichar only bonded with animals (and a fellow feral child) and eventually took up chain smoking—a uniquely human vice (Ben, 11:57; Noel, 12:02).
  • “It’s heartbreaking... He can't fully be human and he can't fully be an animal.” (Noel, 13:06)
  • Sanichar preferred raw meat, sniffed it before eating, and died young—likely from tuberculosis (Noel, 14:29).

Memorable Quote

“He's like stuck between two worlds, right. He can't fully be human and he can't fully be an animal. It's just, it's really heartbreaking if you think about it.”
— Noel (13:06)

3. The Ethics and Philosophy of Intervention

• Should Feral Children Be “Rescued”?
  • “Wouldn't he have just been better off frolicking in the forest free and naked... with the wolf pack rather than the Sikandra Mission orphanage?” (Noel, 12:57)
  • Ben and Noel debate the ethics of imposing human civilization on children who cannot adapt: “Are we conflating living the way we do with living the correct way?” (Ben, 13:15)
  • "I could see the validity of the argument... Their lives are hard, but they're still their lives." (Ben, 26:48)

4. History and Mythology of Feral Children

• Other Notable Cases:
  • Lobo Wolf Girl (Mexico, 1845-1852): Seen running/eating with wolves, captured and escaped, later seen suckling wolf cubs (Ben, 19:14).
  • High Incidence in India: “Over the years, there have been several other cases, including wolf children, panther children, dog children, chicken children, and even gazelle children.” (Noel, 19:54)
  • Shamdeo/Pascal (India, 1972): Found as a child with wolves; never learned to speak, died young (Ben, 23:51–24:28).
  • Oksana Malaya (Ukraine, 1991): Lived with dogs due to parental neglect; only knew “yes” and “no,” but with therapy learned some verbal skills (Ben, 25:36).
  • Chicken Boy of Fiji, Sujit Kumar (1978): Imprisoned in a chicken coop as punishment, rescued later and still living under care (Noel, 37:12–38:04).
  • Leopard Boy (India, 1912): Raised by a leopardess, comfortable on all fours, had tough callused skin, eventually captured and lost his sight due to unrelated cataracts (Noel, 35:59–36:38).
  • Gazelle Boy (Spanish Sahara, 1960): Story recounted by an anthropologist, may be a hoax, but the tale involves a boy running with gazelles, never caught (Ben, 28:59–29:13; 33:48).

Memorable Quote

“He lived life as a gazelle... But I always thought the life of a gazelle must be so rife with panic and paranoia and just, you know, death around every corner.”
— Ben (29:15)

5. The Science of Language and Human Development

• Critical Window for Language Acquisition:
  • “Generative grammar.” (Noel, 34:53) — recognizing Noam Chomsky's foundational work.
  • “This child had soundly missed that window... making developing any kind of spoken language... nigh on impossible.” (Noel, 10:06)
• Innate Human Behaviors Debunked:
  • “For a long time, we as a species assumed that smiling or laughter were innate things... But the problem with Sanichar is that he did not seem to laugh or smile...” (Ben, 10:33-11:08)

6. Skepticism & Sensationalism

• Hoaxes and Exaggeration:
  • Some cases, like certain “gazelle boys,” may be hoaxes or journalistic embellishments (Ben, 34:06).
  • Many other European “wild child” stories were staged hoaxes or scams (Ben, 39:28).

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Parody Opening
  “Now this is a story all about how my parents left me in the woods across town. Like to take a minute, just sit right there, tell you how I grew up with a cat and a bear.”
  — Ben (05:11)

• On Ethics of Rescue
  “Are we conflating living the way we do with living the correct way?”
  — Ben (13:15)

• On Colonial Attitudes
  “You cannot subjugate people... and say, oh, they are equal to us... You have to say that we are somehow better.”
  — Ben (21:46)

• Compassion vs Civilization
  “Let the kid live in the forest... I'm probably going to get some people yelling at me about that. But I stand by my position.”
  — Noel (26:20)

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• [04:18]: Opening quote from Kipling & setup for the episode’s theme
• [06:00]: Introduction of Dina Sanichar’s story
• [09:24]: First-person accounts and missionary perspective on Sanichar
• [10:06]: Language acquisition window in child development
• [11:57]: Sanichar’s limited adaptation to human habits and chain smoking
• [13:06]: Ethical debate: forest vs. orphanage life
• [19:14]: Other cases (Lobo Wolf Girl, etc.)
• [21:08]: Colonialism and “White Man’s Burden”
• [23:51]: Shamdeo/Pascal – another Indian feral child case
• [25:36]: Oksana Malaya (Ukraine, dog girl)
• [28:59]: The “Gazelle Boy” story
• [34:53]: Chomsky and language science
• [35:59]: Leopard Boy and life with animals
• [37:12]: Chicken Boy of Fiji—childhood abuse, rescue, and recovery
• [39:28]: Media hoaxes around feral children
• [40:02]: Closing thanks and acknowledgment of the community

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Conclusion

This episode uses wit and empathy to explore the tragic, strange, and often mythologized lives of “feral children.” Ben and Noel dissect the complexities of these stories—from the colonial impulses behind humanitarian “rescue” to the heartbreak of liminal existence, neither fully animal nor human. They challenge listeners to reconsider what “civilization” really means and to confront the uncomfortable ambiguities that sit at history’s wild margins.

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Contact & Community

• Share your thoughts and stories with the hosts via their Ridiculous Historians Facebook group or on social media.

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Transcript

[Ben]

Folks, we've talked about Rudyard Kipling before in the past. Old Ricky Tikki Tappy, the author of one of our favorite poems, if also.

[Noel]

In the Boots, Boots, boots moving up and down again. Yeah, sorry, I'm very 28 days later trailer coded.

[Ben]

Oh I love it. Also, Rudyard Kipling, just to be clear, not a great dude as a person, but he did write a bunch of stuff. One of the best young adult spy novels out there. Him in this classic episode. We also talk about his inspiration to write a little something called the Jungle Book.

[Noel]

Yeah, you may have heard of it. It turns out that the story of Mowgli was in fact inspired by some very sad tales of feral children who were abandoned by their human parents and actually, for all intents and purposes, raised by wolves. Or at the very least, raised in the wild. Let's jump right in.

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[Ben]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Now this is the long of the jungle, as old and as true as the sky. And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die. That is part of the law of the jungle. Rudyard Kipling.

[Noel]

Ben, you know what I thought you were going to do?

[Ben]

What did you think I was going to do?

[Noel]

I thought you were going to do. Now this is a story all about how my life got flipped, turned upside down. Let me take a minute. Just sit right back. It's on the Bel Air.

[Ben]

I think you nailed it. I guess if we wanted to do parody lyrics, it would be like, now this is a story all about how my parents left me in the woods across town. Like to take a minute, just sit right there, tell you how I grew up with a cat and a bear. You know what I mean?

[Noel]

That's good.

[Ben]

Nah, that's not my best friend.

[Noel]

I pulled up to death. That's all I saw. I don't know. This is your bag, Ben. You did a good job there. Yeah. Because we're talking about. We're talking about sort of a slice of history. A type A thing that encompasses a couple of different periods at the base of our story Today is one particular feral child that was found in India and likely served as the basis for one of your favorite racist works of fiction, Ben.

[Ben]

Is it one of my favorite.

[Noel]

I'm doing favorite in quotation fingers here.

[Ben]

Well, the Jungle Book is an amazing story. It's almost as amazing as our super producer, Casey Pegram. But you're right, Noel. The story of Dina Sanachar. Not his real name. As far as we know. Our story takes us to a part of India called Uttar Pradesh, which I may be mispronouncing. It's sort of like northern central India on the border of nepal. And in 1872, there was a group of hunters who encountered a pack of wolves bounding through the forest. But not just any ordinary pack of wolves, right, Noel?

[Noel]

No, they say, what ho? I've sighted a man cub.

[Ben]

Yes.

[Noel]

On all fours, scampering as though he were a member of the pack. And then they proceeded to smoke the wolf pack out of their cave, kill the wolves and bring this, this man cub to like a local orphanage. Because, you know, he clearly couldn't possibly be happy living in the woods free and naked and with his animal brethren.

[Ben]

I feel like you've got a personal stake in this month.

[Noel]

All right, you're right, Ben. I don't know. I just think like, you know, I mean, it's so sad. They literally. There's different accounts of the story that they killed all of the wolves or that they at least killed the mother wolf and again smoked them out of the cave. But, you know, it's such. So presumptuous to me. He was like what, six years old? I want to say.

[Ben]

Yeah, he was six.

[Noel]

I guess, I don't know, I guess they felt like they were doing their Christian duty.

[Ben]

They probably did. But you know, the wolves most likely attacked them because first off they set a fire and then they were actively intruding into like if a. Unless a wolf is threatened or starving, it doesn't care what you do. Human.

[Noel]

Would these have been white hunters, Ben? Or would these have been Hindi, like people from the region? Is this during colonialism or is this a little bit before?

[Ben]

This is during the British Raj? So.

[Noel]

So it's not clear if these were white hunters or if these were local men. And not that that really matters, but we'll get to. So the boy is brought to town, to the village, and to a mission run orphanage that's run by a priest by the name of Father Earhart, who is very much trying to convert the local population to his type of, his way of Thinking.

[Ben]

Right.

[Noel]

Which is Catholicism.

[Ben]

He's a missionary. Right. And he says he actually gives the kid his name. The kid doesn't have a human name yet. And so he names him Dina and Sanichar. And Sanichar means Saturday.

[Noel]

That's right. Which is the day of the week that he was delivered to this guy.

[Ben]

Which I think that checks out. It's not a huge burst of creativity. But I also think I also. This is just a personal aesthetic, Noel. But I think it's really cool when people have names that are days of the week, like Wednesday Addams. I thought that was great.

[Noel]

That is cool.

[Ben]

Somebody's last name is Saturday. They just feel kind of fun to me.

[Noel]

Yeah. And I like the idea of his Girl Friday, you know?

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Noel]

And also Mr. Wednesday from American Gods.

[Ben]

Yes. Yes, Mr. Wednesday. I don't know any. I don't think I know anyone named Tuesday. If you're listening and you happen to.

[Noel]

Be named Tuesday or after any day of the week.

[Ben]

Or after any day of the week. We don't wanna discriminate. Yeah. Let's go.

[Noel]

So what happens next?

[Ben]

So what happens next is that Father Earhart says some things. We have a quotation from him that I think encapsulates the condescending attitude so prevalent at the time. He says that he thinks Sanachar is undoubtedly what called pagal, meaning idiotic or slow. But he says, despite this, Sanachar still shows signs of reason and sometimes actual shrewdness. But what we know now, with the benefit of retrospect, is that Sonechar's behavior had a lot in common with the behavior of other similar cases of feral children.

[Noel]

Yeah. And that's the thing, the most important takeaway from this and the interaction with some, we'll talk about some others. There's a window, very crucial window for language development. And this child had soundly missed that window. So it basically means that developing any kind of spoken language or being assimilated into speaking with the folks in the village was going to be nigh on impossible.

[Ben]

Right. That's the problematic part. You're absolutely correct about this. Not just this concept of language learning or language acquisition, but also the concept of certain other behavior acquisitions. So Sanachar allegedly would not express himself in ways that seemed innately human. For instance, for a long time, we as a species assumed that smiling or laughter were innate things. Sort of how like people used to say, all babies are born knowing how to swim. You know what I mean?

[Noel]

I thought you were going to say, swear.

[Ben]

All babies are born knowing how to.

[Noel]

Swear if look who's talking is any indication.

[Ben]

Right, right. Fantastic series of documentaries. But the problem with Sanichar is that he did not seem to laugh or smile and he didn't seem to bond with people. With one notable exception, he would only bond with animals. There was a kid that he bonded with which was another feral child who came to the same orphanage. By this time, Sanachar had learned to wear human clothing. He could reportedly dress himself, quote, with difficulty and keep track of his cup and his plate. But he showed this younger kid they would hang out and he showed him how to drink from a cup.

[Noel]

Yeah. And apparently he also became quite the chain smoker later in life.

[Ben]

Yeah, that was his one big human habit he picked up. Right.

[Noel]

Yeah. What a one to pick up.

[Ben]

That's. You know, it's heartbreaking when you think about this, because in other cases or other alleged cases, we should say, because we can get into the science of this a little bit later. In many other cases where something like this is alleged to have occurred, there's not a way to fix it. You can mitigate some of the, some of the issues, but you can't repair them. This guy Sanichar was likely incapable of going on to become a priest himself or make a TED Talk or something.

[Noel]

Here's my question for you, Ben. This is why I had such an axe to grind at the top of the show with these horrible, horrible men smoking out the lovely wolf and family that had raised this young lad.

[Ben]

I think I know where you're going. Yeah.

[Noel]

Wouldn't he have just been better off frolicking in the forest free and naked.

[Ben]

With the wolf pack rather than the Sikandra Mission orphanage? Yeah, it's a good question.

[Noel]

He's like stuck between two worlds, right. He can't fully be human and he can't fully be an animal. It's just, it's really heartbreaking if you think about it.

[Ben]

Yeah. You know, and we have to ask ourselves, what is the ultimate priority? Is it quality of life? Is it because our civilization is doing something that. Are we conflating living the way we do with living the correct way? You know what I mean?

[Noel]

That's right. I think it's a. I, I mean, I think there's an inherent judgment call at play here. Is it about protecting the life of the child? I don't know. Obviously a six year old orphan running around with a bunch of wolves probably isn't the most safe thing in the world, but I'm not sure, Ben. I'm of two minds of it. It's clearly, it's clearly causing me some conflict internally.

[Ben]

There are arguments on both sides, you know, but when you see pictures of the guy, because they're actual photographs of Dina Sonachar, which is why we can put some more weight into this story in comparison to other stories like Romulus and Remus raised by a wolf. That's mythology. There aren't any photographs of them. This, this guy, though, when you look at the pictures, it's heartbreaking, man. He's clearly uncomfortable having to wear these clothes. He doesn't look like he's super comfortable standing on two feet. No, standing on two legs rather.

[Noel]

And apparently he continued like he did, learn to eat from a plate like you said. But he continued to prefer raw meat to anything else. And he would still sniff it before eating it up until he passed away, I believe at a pretty early age, if I'm not mistaken, from what's thought to have been tuberculosis.

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[Ben]

A foot washed up. A shoe with some bones in it. They had no idea who it was.

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[Ben]

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[Noel]

He never thought he was going to get caught. And I just looked at my computer screen, I was just like, ah, gotcha.

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[Noel]

I had this like overwhelming sensation that.

[Ben]

I had to call a right then.

[Noel]

And I just hit call, said, you know, hey, I'm Jacob Schick. I'm the CEO of One Tribe foundation. And I just wanted to go on and let her know there's a lot.

[Ben]

Of people battling some of the very.

[Noel]

Same things you're battling and there is help out there. The Good Stuff podcast, season two takes a deep look into One Tribe Foundation, a nonprofit fighting suicide in the veteran community. September is National Suicide Prevention Month, so join hosts Jacob and Ashley Schick as they bring you to the front lines of One Tribe's mission.

[Ben]

I was married to a combat army veteran and he actually took his own life to suicide. One Tribe saved my life twice. There's a lot of love that flows.

[Noel]

Through this place and it's sincere now.

[Ben]

It's a personal mission. Don't want to have to go to any more funerals.

[Noel]

You know, I got blown up on a react mission. I ended up having amputation below the knee of my right leg and a traumatic brain injury because I landed on my head.

[Announcer]

Welcome to season two of the good Stuff.

[Noel]

Listen to the Good Stuff podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben]

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[Noel]

He said, you are a number, a New York state number, and we own you.

[Ben]

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[Noel]

The first night was overwhelming and you don't know who's next to you and.

[Ben]

We didn't know what to expect in the morning.

[Noel]

Nobody tells you anything.

[Ben]

Listen to shock incarceration on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Noel]

Why don't we talk a little bit more about some other famous feral children throughout history, Ben, and kind of do a little contrast and compare?

[Ben]

Sure, yeah, let's go with. Let's see. Do you want to. Why don't we start with children who had also been, quote, unquote, raised by other animals? How's that sound?

[Noel]

That does sound good to me, Ben.

[Ben]

All right, well, we have that other feral child that was found and brought to the same mission orphanage. But then we have examples such as the Lobo wolf girl from 1845 to 1852. In 1845, she was seen running in Mexico on all fours with a pack of wolves attacking a herd of goats. A year later, she was seen with the wolves eating a goat. People tried to capture her. She was captured, but she escaped. And then she was seen in 1852 suckling two wolf cubs, at which point she ran into the woods and was never seen again.

[Noel]

And I just want to backtrack just slightly. India in particular has a history of producing these feral children. In addition to Sanicheer and his buddy who was at the orphanage, over the years, there have been several other cases, including wolf children, panther children, dog children, chicken children, and even gazelle children. So this. This is kind of mythology that Rudyard Kipling would continue to kind of inject into the minds of the West There was some truth to it.

[Ben]

Yeah, this is. This is where we get into a little bit of a speculative thing, but I believe it's safe to speculate here. Rudyard Kipling was aware of the story of Dina, and he then went on to write the Jungle Book with the character of Mowgli.

[Noel]

Now, did we talk about. We kind of alluded pretty harshly to Kipling's imperialist leanings and his kind of inherent not greatness. What was he trying to communicate with the story of the man cub beyond just the kind of lighthearted story of a. Of a boy connected back to nature?

[Ben]

It's an interesting question. So this guy is most well known for things like the Jungle Book, maybe that mongoose story, the poem if, which is a wonderful poem. But he is also the author of a poem called the White Man's Burden. And this was not a sarcastic comment on his part or a sarcastic statement. When he is writing the Jungle Book, he is writing in a context of rampant othering and rationalization. So British forces at this time are thinking, the implicit problem is you cannot subjugate people an entire culture and then say, oh, they are equal to us. We're just doing it because we want resources. And we're, you know, we're no better than robbers. You have to say that we are somehow better. We are somehow more human for lack of a better statement.

[Noel]

So the white man's burden is that, like, the inherent betterness of the white man and their mission to kind of indoctrinate anyone that they see as being lesser.

[Ben]

Yeah, that's. That's the idea. It's that they are somehow ideologically freeing people who have existed thousands of years before.

[Noel]

This idea of being backward or something like that.

[Ben]

Right, right. Bringing them forward, awakening them to what they thought was the true religion, which would be something like the aristocracy, Christianity, capitalism, kind of all in its morass, in its own mix, and then over time, making them a little less bad. Never white, never as good as the British, just a little less bad. Right. And this theme resonates in some of the ideas of things that would be depicted in the US as well. The concept of the quote unquote, noble savage. You heard that? You know, like, untouched by the fetters of true civilization, which is kind of.

[Noel]

What Mowgli is meant to be.

[Ben]

Mowgli is kind of this innocent babe in the woods who has this nobility, but, of course, at the end of the story, pursues his destiny in the.

[Noel]

World of men because it's inevitable, because.

[Ben]

That'S what you're supposed to do. And this leads us to some other stories. You had mentioned that India seemed to have a higher frequency of feral children. There was one named Shamdio in 1972, which is pretty recent, right?

[Noel]

Yeah.

[Ben]

He was about four years old. He was found in a forest in India playing with wolf cubs. Apparently. His skin was very dark. He had long, hooked fingernails. I don't know how much of this is true because they also say he had sharpened teeth, which feels a little out there for me, but he had calluses on his palms, elbows and knees. He never talked. He learned sign language. He also was eating raw meat. He was admitted to Mother Teresa's Home for the Destitute and Dying in Lucknow. He was renamed Pascal. He died in 1985, a lot of times after being apprehended, at least in these stories. Feral children don't do well in society, like you said. I really appreciate you bringing up that phrase, Noel. They don't fit in to either world completely. They're in this. What's called a liminal space. They're on the border between the world of humanity and the world of animals that raise them. We also know that there's what you would call tantalizing science about feral children. There's not as much research on them as there should be. While there are several confirmed cases, there are a lot of speculative ones. And look, this is kind of dark, ridiculous historians, but it needs to be said, sometimes when children appear to be feral, they may have run away because they experienced severe abuse or trauma. There was a girl in the Ukraine whose parents were very, very serious alcoholics. Her name was oksana Malaya. In 1991, she was found living with dogs in a kennel. She was eight years old. She had been living with the dogs for six years because her parents left her outside one night and she crawled in with the dogs.

[Noel]

Oh, wow.

[Ben]

So that's something that. And just like we mentioned earlier with the language acquisition window, she ran on all fours, panted with her tongue out, communicated like a dog. She only knew the words yes and no. And she was luckily, with intensive therapy, able to learn some basic social verbal skills. Now or at the last report, she lives in Odessa and works with farm animals under the supervision of her caretakers. So that is a happy ending. But we have to remember, as easy as it is to romanticize this idea of someone raised with animals and having this innate bond with them, this kind of bond can occur because of some very terrible things.

[Noel]

Absolutely, absolutely. We don't know where the boy who would go on to be called Dina, what his story was, but surely, I mean, it sounds like he spent enough time with these creatures and they did not eat him, and he developed their traits that he was relatively safe. I don't know. I keep beating the drum for this whole let the kid live in the forest line of thinking, and I'm probably going to get some people yelling at me about that. But I stand by my position.

[Ben]

I think it's good to have a position. I could see the validity of the argument. It's weird because this is not a perfect comparison, but back when I lived in Central America, there was this huge epidemic of stray dogs in particular, and they would run in packs. They had, you know, matted hair. They had all the problems that you would have if you were a stray dog. You didn't go to the vet and you were outdoors all the time. And I was talking to another expat and I asked them, you know, what do you think about all these dogs? Should they round them up? Do people adopt dogs the way they do in the US and all this other stuff? And he said, it used to really bother me, but look at them. They're so much more free than they would be in a kennel or something. And their lives are hard, but they're still their lives. You know, I'm still conflicted about that. You know what I mean? Because are their lives that good? You know, how. First off, how long would he have lived like this in the woods if those hunters hadn't intervened? He would have lived longer than the wolves. He would have ultimately been alone again.

[Noel]

That's very true. And I do see all that. So it's hard to say.

[Ben]

I don't know. Yeah, it's tough to say which life.

[Noel]

Was better, I guess, is what I'm getting at, what I'm struggling with.

[Ben]

Yeah, And I'm right there with you, man. Although, you know what? I think we should mention you mentioned Gazelle. The gazelle kid. I did, yeah, yeah, yeah. So this gazelle child, the story comes from someone named Jean Claude Augur, who's an anthropologist and was traveling across the Spanish Sahara in 1960 when he met some nomads who told him that there was a wild child living a day's journey away. So he followed their directions. The next day, he sees this naked kid galloping in gigantic bounds along with a long cavalcade of white gazelles. The boy walked on all fours, sometimes assumed an upright gait. But he twitched his muscles, scalp, nose and ears, like the rest of the herd ate desert roots. He appeared to be herbivorous and his teeth were level like that of an herbivore. But he lived this way for at least another six years. People tried to catch him in a net, suspended by a helicopter. But unlike so many other feral children, according to this story, he was never removed from his companions. Good. Yeah. So he.

[Noel]

I like that story. That's a happy ending.

[Ben]

And he lived life as a gazelle. But you know, I always, even from a young age, I always thought the life of something like a gazelle or a deer must be so, oh, rife.

[Noel]

With panic and paranoia and just, you know, death around every corner. So, you know what? Maybe I take it back. Running with the wolf pack might have been safer.

[Ben]

Yeah, or like befriending some tigers. Although that could. You have to work pretty hard to stay on their good side, Right?

[Noel]

Very true.

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[Ben]

A foot washed up, a shoe with some bones in it. They had no idea who it was.

[Announcer]

Most everything was burned up pretty good.

[Ben]

From the fire that not a whole lot was salvageable.

[Announcer]

These are the coldest of cold cases, but everything is about to change. Every case that is a cold case that has DNA right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime. A small lab in Texas is cracking the code on DNA using new scientific tools. They're finding clues in evidence so tiny you might just miss it.

[Noel]

He never thought he was going to get caught. And I just looked at my computer screen, I was just like, ah, gotcha.

[Announcer]

On America's Crime Lab, we'll learn about victims and survivors and you'll meet the team behind the scenes at othram, the Houston lab that takes on the most hopeless cases to finally solve the unsolvable. Listen to America's Crime Lab on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben]

What would you do if one bad decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison or the most brutal boot camp designed to be hell on earth? Unfortunately for Mark Lombardo, this was the choice he faced.

[Noel]

He said, you are a number, a New York state number, and we own you.

[Ben]

Shock incarceration, also known as boot camps, are short term, highly regimented correctional programs that mimic military basic training. These programs aim to provide a shock of prison life, emphasizing strict discipline, physical training, hard labor and rehabilitation programs. Mark had one chance to complete this program and had no idea of the hell awaiting him the next six months.

[Noel]

The first night was overwhelming and you don't know who's next to you and.

[Ben]

We didn't know what to expect in the morning.

[Noel]

Nobody tells you anything.

[Ben]

Listen to shock incarceration on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Noel]

I had this like overwhelming sensation that.

[Ben]

I had to call her right then.

[Noel]

And I just hit call, said, you know, hey, I'm Jacob Schick. I'm the CEO of One Tribe foundation. And I just wanted to go on and let her know there's a lot.

[Ben]

Of People battling some of the very.

[Noel]

Same things you're battling. And there is help out there. The Good Stuff Podcast Season two takes a deep look into One Tribe Foundation, a nonprofit fighting suicide in the veteran community. September is National Suicide Prevention Month, so join hosts Jacob and Ashley Schick as they bring you to the front lines of One Tribe's mission.

[Ben]

I was married to a combat army veteran and he actually took his own life to suicide. One Tribe saved my life twice. There's a lot of love that flows.

[Noel]

Through this place and it's sincere now.

[Ben]

It's a personal mission. Don't have to go to any more funerals.

[Noel]

You know, I got blown up on a react mission. I ended up having amputation below the knee of my right leg and a traumatic brain injury because I landed on my head.

[Announcer]

Welcome to season two of the Good Stuff.

[Noel]

Listen to the Good Stuff podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben]

And just to clarify, there was more than one gazelle boy and there's also a rumor. The gazelle stories are interesting because there are rumors that the entire thing was a hoax made by bored reporters.

[Noel]

I see.

[Ben]

So I don't know, because it sounds kind of unusual, right?

[Noel]

It really does.

[Ben]

So what are some. Were there any examples that really stuck out to you of children raised by animals?

[Noel]

Yeah, there were a few. But I do want to take an opportunity to point something out. And it's more of me pointing out that I'm kind of a dummy when it comes to this. I did not realize that Noam Chomsky was like this preeminent linguist. He kind of like wrote the paper that figured out about that window of language acquisition that we were talking about earlier. I only knew him from his political talks and his, you know, anti government rhetoric, but apparently early on in his career he was this like incredible linguist. Generative grammar. Yeah. Generative grammar.

[Ben]

Yeah. Chomsky doesn't always get the the cred he deserves, at least in that field. You know what I mean?

[Noel]

I feel like it's not something that was super out there, but it's fascinating if you look into his work in that field. He did some really important stuff. So moving on to some of my favorite feral children, I got one that stood out to me at least. It kind of. And it sort of falls in line with what you were talking about earlier, Ben, about how you'd want to, you know, befriend some lions. And definitely more likely than being a gazelle boy. We've got leopard boy who Was supposedly taken in by a leopardess in 1912 and lived with her for three years. Of course. Surprise, surprise, man enters the picture and kills the leopard and found her offspring, One of which was this boy who was now five years old. And they found his family. And again, this was in India and is very, very similar to the wolf boy, where he was most comfortable running around on all fours. He had calluses to the point of almost like paw pads on his hands and feet. And he had a very tough hide just from, you know, can you imagine scampering through the woods and getting nicked by tree branches and all manner of roughage, you know, I mean, you would have to really develop some thick skin, literally. Right.

[Ben]

Crawling up trees as well. Right? Yep.

[Noel]

And he was a biter and a fighter, as you might have to be. And he would eat live chickens from around the village.

[Ben]

Straight up seahorse teeth.

[Noel]

My man, big time. You're bringing it back.

[Ben]

I'm bringing it back.

[Noel]

I knew you would.

[Ben]

One of us had to. If we didn't, Kayce would probably have jumped in right before the end.

[Noel]

But this story is so sad. He actually apparently gradually lost his sight due to cataracts. But that was just a coincidence. Nothing to do with his upbringing or his jungle days. So, you know, I put it to you. Would he have been better off hanging out with the leopard family in the jungle? I see how the man hadn't swooped in and murdered his mother.

[Ben]

Yeah. It's a philosophical question at this point, you know. Now, what. Were there any other ones that really stuck out to you?

[Noel]

I think we mentioned a chicken boy.

[Ben]

We did. We should follow. We should deliver on that.

[Noel]

This particular chicken boy came from Fiji, and he was dubbed Sujit Kumar, the chicken boy of Fiji, and was found in 1978. And this is one of the sad ones, like you had mentioned earlier. Very, very sad. In fact, he had a very tragic, dysfunctional childhood. His parents, as punishment, locked him in the chicken coop and his mother took her own life. And his father was killed. And apparently his grandfather, who sounds like a terrible, twisted man, kept him in the chicken coop and was there for eight years. He was found in the middle of the road, clucking and flapping his arms and pecking at his. This is. This is dark, dude. I don't want to end on this one.

[Ben]

Well, it does have a happy ending because he got out.

[Noel]

Yeah.

[Ben]

And he has human assistance.

[Noel]

And, you know, according to everything that I found, he's still living. And he is cared for by the woman who rescued him. From the home, a woman named Elizabeth Clayton. So good. Good on her. That is a dark one, though. Wow.

[Ben]

I'm just saying, nowadays, were I out in the wilderness and I saw a dirty, naked kid running around with any sort of animal, I would feel responsible. I would feel like I have to call the authorities.

[Noel]

Yes.

[Ben]

In case the kid had, you know, been lost or separated from their parents.

[Noel]

It's true. It's true, Ben. I don't know why I've got such an axe to grind about this. I think a lot of it has to do with just man thinking he knows best.

[Ben]

No, but here's the thing. I mean, very ageist about this, because if I walked out and I saw somebody our age running around naked with some wolves or whatever, I would just say, keep going, man. More power to you. You know what I mean? They've clearly made their choice. But let us know what you think. Would. Would age matter if you saw somebody running naked through the woods with some animals? Would the type of animal matter? You know, and we want to hear your stories of any feral children, whether you think they're anecdotal or whether you think they are backed up by evidence. Because as we were looking through this, we found a lot of these were either, I hate to say sensationalized, but maybe exaggerated in some cases.

[Noel]

Sure.

[Ben]

You know, in some cases, there were some actual. I'll call them con jobs in Europe in days of yore. But we, as always, want to hear from you. You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter. We especially like to recommend our community page, ridiculous Historians, which has really been cooking with gas.

[Noel]

Really has. So please join us over there. We'd like to thank our super producer, Casey Pegram, as always, for being straight seahorse teeth, our favorite new expression. We gotta use it, like, once an episode now. No, we don't want to. We don't want to wear.

[Ben]

We don't want to burn out on it.

[Noel]

We don't want to wear it thin. We'd like to thank our buddy Alex Williams, who composed our theme, our research associates, Christopher Eves and Gabe.

[Ben]

And I would like to thank you, Noel, because I have been sneak eating Doritos this entire episode. Trying not to be rude. I just haven't eaten today.

[Noel]

Spoiler alert. It wasn't that sneaky brown.

[Ben]

Oh, could you hear it?

[Noel]

I can smell the dust.

[Ben]

Well, hopefully it doesn't translate to the. To the podcast.

[Noel]

Let us know. Did you hear Ben sneak eating? Shame him.

[Ben]

Did you congratulate me?

[Noel]

There you go.

[Ben]

You always have to be, you know, it's better to be positive.

[Noel]

Very true, Ben. Very true. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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[Noel]

How serious is youth vaping? Irreversible lung damage serious? 1 in 10 kids vape serious, which warrants a serious conversation from a serious parental figure like yourself. Not the seriously know it all sports dad or the seriously smart podcaster. It requires a serious conversation that is best had by you. No, seriously, the best person to talk to your child about vaping is you. To start the conversation, visit talkaboutvaping.org, brought to you by the American Lung association and the Ad Council. I was diagnosed with cancer on Friday and cancer free the next Friday. No chemo, no radiation, none of that.

[Ben]

On a recent episode of Culture Raises Us podcast, I sat down with Warren Campbell, Grammy winning producer, pastor and music executive to talk about the beats, the business and the legacy behind some of the biggest names in gospel, R B and hip hop.

[Noel]

Professionally.

[Ben]

I started at Death Row Records. From Mary Mary to Jennifer Hudson, we get into the soul of the music and the purpose that drives it. Listen to Culture Raises us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts, Lauren came in hot.

[Announcer]

From viral performances to red carpet looks that had everyone talking the podcast. The Latest with Lauren LaRosa is your go to for everything VMA's. We will be right here. By breaking it all down, I'm gonna.

[Noel]

Be giving y' all the headlines.

[Announcer]

Breaking down everything that is going down.

[Noel]

Behind the scenes and getting into what.

[Announcer]

The people are saying.

[Noel]

Like what is the culture talking about.

[Announcer]

That's exactly what we'll be getting into here at the latest with Lauren Lara, everything DNA's. To hear this and more, listen to the Latest with Lauren LaRosa from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. This is an iHeart podcast.