← Ridiculous History
Loading summary
Transcript324 lines
- [00:00]
Ben
Fellow ridiculous historians, we are returning to you with some peak ridiculous history. Back in 2019 we learned the story of someone called Susanna Caroline Matilda.
- [00:14]
Noel
Yeah, I do love three first names is always a good time. You may see in the title of this episode she was considered a colonial grifter princess. An elite grifter. She got up to all kinds of shenanigans, narrowly escaping death after stealing from the queen. Boy oh boy, she really lived on the edge.
- [00:33]
Ben
And what I love about this one is we are featuring none other than a friend of the show, a brother, a compatriot in podcast arms named Christopher Haciotes. This is the guy that we shout out at the end of every episode. So please, please check in folks. He is way smarter than either of
- [00:55]
Noel
us and he's not only here in spirit in this one, he's here corporeally and I am presiding over the proceedings. Spiritually, but not there corporeally. I'm replaced in this episode by our previous and long suffering producer Casey Pegram for this really cool conversation that I'm bummed that I missed. But y' all are gonna benefit from it.
- [01:17]
Ben
Let's roll the tape.
- [01:19]
Christopher Haciotes
This is an I heart podcast.
- [01:21]
Guaranteed Human (Ad Voice)
Guaranteed human.
- [01:23]
Jennie Garth
This is Jenny Garth from I Choose Me with Jennie Garth. History is full of mysteries like how people ever survive before modern laundry detergent. Luckily, Tide's here with boosted stain fighting for cleaner, whiter, brighter and fresher laundry versus Tide. Simply no wonder it was America's number one detergent in sales last year. If it's gotta be clean, it's got to be Tide. Tide is a proud sponsor of the Elton John Impact Awards, honoring those who have helped shape a more inclusive and compassionate world with their artistry, advocacy and un wavering commitment to equality. You won't want to miss the Elton John Impact Awards podcast, available on June 1st on the iHeartRadio app. And everywhere podcasts are heard.
- [02:06]
Noel
This episode of Ridiculous History is brought to you by Grainger.
- [02:09]
Ben
This is the story of the 1.
- [02:11]
Noel
As a maintenance tech at a university, he knows ordering from multiple suppliers takes time away from keeping their arena up and running.
- [02:20]
Ben
That's why he counts on Grainger to get everything he needs, from lighting and H Vac parts to plumbing supplies all in one place.
- [02:28]
Noel
And with fast, dependable delivery, he's stocked and ready for the next tip off.
- [02:33]
Ben
Cole 1-800-Grainger click granger.com or just stop
- [02:37]
Noel
by Granger for the ones who get it done.
- [02:41]
Ad Voice (Various)
When you own your own business, you own every decision.
- [02:43]
Christopher Haciotes
Catch the red eye or take the
- [02:45]
Kohler Ambassador
6am Make a new hire or promote internally.
- [02:48]
Christopher Haciotes
Celebrate a win with the toast at
- [02:50]
Ad Voice (Various)
the gate or unwind at the lounge.
- [02:53]
LifeLock Ad Voice
Big props to this team.
- [02:55]
Ad Voice (Various)
Some decisions are a win win like earning eight times points on Chase Travel. Chase Sapphire reserved for business. The business card that gives back all you put in. Visit chase.com ReserveBusiness to learn more. Cards issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank. Any member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply.
- [03:11]
Tom Hanks (World War II Documentary Ad)
The Second World War is the largest event in human history.
- [03:15]
Ad Voice (Various)
A 20 part documentary series with Tom Hanks.
- [03:18]
Tom Hanks (World War II Documentary Ad)
No part of the globe was untouched, no life unchanged.
- [03:24]
Ad Voice (Various)
Experience the ult of World War II.
- [03:27]
Tom Hanks (World War II Documentary Ad)
Every single person had a story. These are the stories that make us who we are.
- [03:35]
Ad Voice (Various)
World War II with Tom Hanks new episode Monday at 8. Part of history honors 250 only on the history Channel.
- [03:43]
Ben
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you so much for tuning in. Casey, can we get a little sort of, you know, generic, like colonial times music in the background. Perfect. We've got a pitch for you today, folks. Have you ever thought about changing your identity? Have you ever felt that you should break free of the bonds of your previous life and become someone else entirely? That's a question we're addressing today. I'm Ben. My co host, Noel is off on adventures. However, we have a very special episode for you today with a very special guest, our returning friend of the show. Thanks for classing up the place yet again, Christopher Haciotes.
- [05:03]
Christopher Haciotes
Hey, thanks for having me, guys. I can't promise I can fill Noel's chair, but I will do my darndest.
- [05:11]
Ben
I am incredibly excited about this. We didn't. We've teased your return for some time over the previous episodes. Great.
- [05:19]
Christopher Haciotes
Yeah. Set expectations. Thank you. Thank you.
- [05:22]
Ben
Very high. You know, we asked people to write in immediately as soon as they heard your voice, but we didn't tell everyone that you would be coming on for this and maybe some other episodes in the future. But we're quite excited to have you. Thank you so much. I know you've been traveling a lot recently, right?
- [05:42]
Christopher Haciotes
Yeah. We've got a lot of really great new shows in the works for the iHeart Podcast Network. So, listeners, if you dig Ridiculous history, keep your eyes on your screens and your ears on. I don't know, Ben, you're better at promoting than I am. What do you say?
- [05:56]
Ben
Oh, ears to the wind.
- [05:58]
Christopher Haciotes
Keep your ears to the wind. Of the podcast realm.
- [06:03]
Ben
There you go. Oh, keep your Eyes peeled, your ears to the ground. Right, right.
- [06:07]
Christopher Haciotes
And fingertips at the mercy of your soul.
- [06:11]
Ben
There we go. I like the gravitas there.
- [06:13]
Christopher Haciotes
Basically, I just want everyone listening to scroll through their iPhones or their Samsungs or what have you and subscribe to whatever strikes your fancy. This is just a long, ridiculous way of saying yes, Ben, thank you for having me on. I have been up to a lot lately. We're putting together a great slate of new shows coming to the network, all centered around food and travel and stories of humanity and how all those things relate to our lives. I will have a lot more information for you and the listeners at Ridiculous History probably in the next month or two about some really, really great shows that they can watch out for and hopefully subscribe to and really, really dig. So in the meantime, I've just got, you know, time to sit here in a booth with you, which makes me super joyful.
- [06:59]
Ben
Oh, thank you. Also, of course, we are not diving into Ridiculous History alone. We are joined, as always, with our super producer, Casey Pegram. Give it up for him, folks. Casey, I don't know why I stopped, like, you were also gonna put in an applause queue, but Christopher has just given us a delightful, tantalizing, I would say, exclusive teaser, because this is the first time we've talked about some of these projects on air.
- [07:29]
Christopher Haciotes
Yeah, yeah, on. Yeah, that's right.
- [07:31]
Ben
And so we'll say no more. You pay for the whole seat. You only need the edge. Check back in in a month or so, and we may have some new news for you. However, Christopher, you noticed at the very top of the show, we set up the concept of changing one's identity. Have you ever thought about this?
- [07:54]
Christopher Haciotes
I remember when I was in college, I was at a rock and roll club, and someone had taped on the wall of one of the restrooms, over all the terrible band stickers and the graffiti and the cigarette burns and the scars scratched into the wall, someone had taped something that said, reinvent yourself. Start a new life. And it was basically not quite an anarchist cookbook, but directions on how to access a manifesto on how to essentially fake your own death and seize a new identity. And there was just some sort of ne' er do. Well, who is going around spreading these pamphlets around rock and roll clubs in the late 90s and early 2000s. So I don't know how many. How many people out there are living under assumed identities. You know, we can't all be Don Draper. Mm. But if there is anywhere that's prime for reinvention and developing a new Persona and reinventing yourself. I mean, I think the United States of America is like, that's one of the hotbeds for it, right? That's one of the things that we do. We burst forth from the shackles of our past. We reinvent ourselves. We set aside our family histories, we invent new family histories. We just present ourselves as we hope to be. And a lot of times people just kind of buy it.
- [09:15]
Ben
That's true. That's so true. The word of the day I'll introduce here is pseudo. That's the technical term for faking one's death or attempting to do so. And today's episode hinges on. Yeah, just as you said it, man. Hinges on a fundamentally American idea. We have a somewhat romanticized or idealized concept of this purposeful reinvention, this resurrection, rebirth by design. But we don't often talk about the real life cases in which these sorts of tropes occur. And today's story is about a person who did just that, who reinvented herself.
- [10:05]
Christopher Haciotes
And that's the sort of thing that normally is. It's praise, right? To come from humble beginnings, to set yourself up to a life that's grander than anything you could have imagined or that your parents could have set out for you. Normally, it's a good thing. Is that the case here?
- [10:21]
Ben
Well, let's dig into it. How about that? Let's dig into it and then maybe at the end, you and I can make the call. And fellow listeners, please chime in and let us know what your take is after you hear the entirety of the story. Because it's important to hear the entirety of this particular tale. Our story today begins with a woman named Sarah Wilson. She was born in a Staffordshire village in 1740. 54. And she was relatively well off. Not super destitute because her father was a professional and he's a bailiff. However, they did have money problems. And the money problems were such that at the age of 16, Sarah is sent away from home and she is sent to London to look for employment. This was not terribly uncommon during this time.
- [11:16]
Christopher Haciotes
No, it's not. She came from humble beginnings. You know, it's this West Midlands region of England. It's not super industrialized. She's looking for more opportunity, like many people do. She heads to the big city. There are some suggestions. Maybe she wasn't just looking for money. Maybe she was off to seek her own ideas of fortune and fame and kind of build a name for herself, whatever that might mean. But she does head to London and within A few weeks, she finds work. She's working as a maid for a woman named Caroline Vernon. And Caroline Vernon was a lady in waiting for Queen Charlotte. Now Queen Charlotte, Queen of England, but born in Germany, spoke German. German accent when she's speaking English. You know, this is the sort of thing where looking back 3, 4, 500 years, from especially the vantage point of the United States, where royalty is a bit of a novelty, we don't realize how little national borders and family lineage crisscrossed. And one may or may not have informed the other. So you have German nationals who are actually the King of England. You have people from Austria ruling Greece. You have the mix of whatever blend of Austro, Hungarian, Habsburg, that situation, ruling over bits and pieces of Europe. So it's sort of like a dual layer in Europe. And I always like to think that the movies just get it wrong because everyone's speaking with the same accent. Whether it's an accurate accent or not, it's generally somewhat uniform. Whereas that's maybe not the case then, but I've fallen down a rabbit hole of just talking about historical specificity.
- [12:57]
Ben
I think it's a great point, though, and you've picked the right show to do this on, because it may be difficult for many of us in 2019 and these our modern days to understand that it was normal for the rulers of a country to be completely foreign in most what we would consider completely foreign in today's terms, and being quote, unquote, qualified for their position entirely due to their ancestry. And that's what happens. There's a feedback loop around this time and the centuries preceding it, wherein if you are a. A member of a powerful family, you want your children to only marry members of other powerful families. And so things get mixed. I'm not making an inbreeding joke. I'm just saying that's how the thrones end up being collected and consolidated and passed around.
- [13:53]
Christopher Haciotes
Yeah, that's absolutely true. And I will say that this discussion of languages and accents does come into play a little later on in Sarah Wilson's story.
- [14:02]
Ben
Ooh, yes. Nice foreshadowing. Yes. Okay, so Sarah quickly ingratiates herself. She is a people person, a slick talker at this point. She is playing the role of the perfect maid as far as lady in waiting, Caroline Vernon is concerned.
- [14:23]
Christopher Haciotes
Yeah. And she's working at the Queen's house, which, if you or I were to go to London or any of the listeners wanted to go to London and go check out the Queen's house, you can't find it. Because what's now there is Buckingham Palace, a little larger, a little more grand, but that original Queen's house. But that's the region of London we're talking about. It's still, you know, the seat of royal power, right?
- [14:44]
Ben
Quite prestigious, yes. And at the Queen's house, where, as you said, Christopher Buckingham palace now stands, Sarah frequently saw the actual Queen, the wife of King George iii. And she quickly, in addition to ingratiating herself with the upper crust of this community, she also familiarized herself intimately with the scuttlebutt, the gossip, the things that only the maids and the butlers and what Downton Abbey would call the downstairs people were aware of. And this got to her, you know what I mean? Because we know how human psychology works. It has not changed for many thousands of years. Happiness is often defined in comparative terms. So she is smart, she's quick witted, she has escaped her small town and done more than many people in her town would have done. But then she looks around and she sees this opulence and these lives of leisure and she says, I'm paraphrasing here. Why not me? What do they got that I ain't got?
- [15:54]
Christopher Haciotes
That's right, Yeah. I wanna get me some of that.
- [15:57]
Ben
Right, That's a quote. That's.
- [15:59]
Christopher Haciotes
You pulled it exactly. I think that was on some plaque somewhere in some dusty to. But yeah, that's the thing. So Sarah Wilson, being around royalty, knowing royalty, knowing the comings and goings of royalty, that wasn't enough for her. She wanted to get a piece of the action, have a slice for herself, carve out a little nook in that world. Or maybe she just wanted the things that she knew she would never ever have on her own. And I mean, this is such a stratified culture at the time. It. It still is in many ways. But when you come from completely humble backgrounds and you are spending your day around someone who is wearing, let's say a ring or a crown, or today a pair of sneakers, or, you know, you drive a car that is essentially worth what your family could make in a decade. And this is just a trinket to this person. That wealth imbalance creates tension. And most people in the world can handle that, some people can't. And Sarah Wilson was one of those people. So there was a night when she was by herself in the Queen's room, she snuck into a closet, breaks into this cabinet, and she takes some jewelry, some dresses, a ring, and a little miniature portrait of Queen Charlotte. So it's like we don't have an image of what it looks like, but I imagine it's one of those little sort of cameo portraits and maybe a little silhouette, just something that would be a keepsake, something that a family member of Queen Charlotte would keep and would, you know, would refer to. To lovingly remember their relative. So she takes all these things for herself. Yeah.
- [17:43]
Ben
And she thinks it's no big deal. No one's going to find out, for Pete's sake. This is the Queen of England, right?
- [17:52]
Christopher Haciotes
She's got countless dresses, countless rings, scads of jewelry. Yeah. But the thing is, they. They were not countless. They were. They were counted. Counted frequently. As is the case with sometimes people of immense wealth, they also are immensely focused on the things that make them wealthy. And so Queen Charlotte was no different. She kept fastidious inventory of her inventory. She knew what she had and she knew when something was missing. So very, very, very soon after Sarah took these items, they're noticed missing. So the Queen says, all right, we don't know who did this. I need someone to keep an eye on.
- [18:33]
Ben
I thought that was quite clever, too.
- [18:35]
Christopher Haciotes
Yeah. I mean, you don't want to just go off and start accusing people willy nilly. That might fly with some royals. Not Queen Charlotte.
- [18:44]
Ben
Not Queen Charlotte, no. She sets up a surveillance operation and think about how many servants must exist in a royal household. So there's clearly going to be several factions, and there's also going to be some servants that she trusts completely, and then some that are still a little green, and then some that she doesn't really interact with. So we can only imagine that she goes to one of the servants, she legitimately trusts someone or some people with whom she spent years and years. Right. And she asked these people to watch, not just the room, but this particular closet. And this is where Sarah Wilson makes her first error.
- [19:33]
Christopher Haciotes
Yeah, I mean, the criminal returning to the scene of the crime. It's a trope in crime fiction, but that's because it happens. That's human nature. You know, maybe your prime criminal would go for the big score and then never touch that room again, never go back. But Sarah was not a professional criminal. She knew she got away with something once, so she went back to the well again. Or in this case, the Cabinet.
- [19:58]
Ben
Yes, exactly.
- [19:59]
Christopher Haciotes
But this time, you know, that. That Law and Order style stakeout, whatever was going on, it worked. And Sarah Wilson was caught in the act of trying to rob Queen Charlotte once again.
- [20:11]
Ben
So this is very, very, very bad news, the way the laws work at the time. Sarah Wilson is charged with theft and violation of the royal privacy.
- [20:23]
Christopher Haciotes
And that's serious.
- [20:25]
Ben
That is serious. Yeah, that is serious.
- [20:27]
Christopher Haciotes
How serious?
- [20:29]
Ben
More so than theft. Violation of the royal privacy carries with it the death sentence.
- [20:37]
Christopher Haciotes
Oh, that's serious.
- [20:38]
Noel
Yes.
- [20:39]
Ben
So she receives the death sentence and her original employer, lady in waiting Vernon, has not given up on her.
- [20:47]
Christopher Haciotes
That's Caroline Vernon, right?
- [20:48]
Ben
Yes, that is lady in waiting, Caroline Vernon. And Caroline takes it upon herself to personally plead to Queen Charlotte, please spare Sarah.
- [21:00]
Christopher Haciotes
Like she's made a mistake. But she maybe is a good girl. She comes from a good background. I like her.
- [21:07]
Ben
And she's so young.
- [21:09]
Christopher Haciotes
Right. She's what, how young?
- [21:11]
Ben
16, 17 at this age. So her pleas work somewhat, and her punishment, the death sentence is commuted to what they called transportation.
- [21:23]
Christopher Haciotes
That sounds nice.
- [21:24]
Ben
It does, it does. So she was just on subways.
- [21:27]
Christopher Haciotes
Yeah. So where'd they transport her?
- [21:29]
Ben
They transported her. Transportation, we should say. Didn't mean the same thing. It means today transportation was forcible exile.
- [21:38]
Christopher Haciotes
Oh, it's.
- [21:39]
Ben
Deportation would be the closest analog we have today. Right. So In July of 1771, she is placed on a prison ship and sent to Baltimore, Maryland.
- [21:52]
Christopher Haciotes
It's a long transportation.
- [21:54]
Ben
It's a long ride. It is long. You wouldn't want to foot the Uber bill for that. However, things get worse because when she arrives in the. What would become the United States.
- [22:06]
Christopher Haciotes
So this is. It's 1771. We're five years before.
- [22:09]
Ben
Right.
- [22:09]
Christopher Haciotes
Everything kind of comes together still just colonies. Colonies, yep.
- [22:14]
Ben
And she is not put in prison. She is not given some sort of state level employment or colonial level employment. She is put up for auction and sold as a slave.
- [22:27]
Christopher Haciotes
So she can't just kind of do her own thing in the United States or in what would become the United States, she's just in Maryland, transported there against her will, although maybe willingly, because otherwise the other option is to be put to death. But then she's just in servitude.
- [22:43]
Ben
Yeah, that's that. It's looking grim for Sarah at this point. She is sold to a fellow named W. Duval. He is a planter from Bush Creek, Frederick County.
- [22:56]
Christopher Haciotes
Do you know what she was doing for Mr. Duvall?
- [22:58]
Ben
I have not seen too much detail about that.
- [23:02]
Christopher Haciotes
That makes sense though, because I think she wasn't with him for long.
- [23:06]
Ben
Right, right, right. She wasn't with him for long. And at this case, it's an unpleasant thing to imagine, but physical abuse was prevalent with people who were enslaved in this manner. Slavery in general. So while we do not have confirmed records of what happened during her time There we know that she did not spend very long there at all. As you said, Christopher, she sought to improve her situation almost immediately. Right. She escapes to Virginia lickety split. And she doesn't just go with the clothes on her back. This is the weirdest part of this story.
- [23:46]
Christopher Haciotes
Yeah. This is the sort of thing where our lack of a time machine is just really a bummer, because I. I want to know the details of how this exactly happened. When she escapes, she still has in her possession, which means she brought over with her on her transportation from Britain. She still had one of the rings she stole, she still had some dresses, and she still had that miniature portrait of Queen Charlotte, which.
- [24:13]
Ben
How, How. How do you have that?
- [24:14]
Christopher Haciotes
I don't. I don't know. I mean, I. We like to think that systems of power are in place and everyone does everything perfectly. But as anyone who has ever dealt with, let's say the police or the local county clerk or the tax collector, who. Yeah, sometimes people who are supposed to be doing their jobs, you know, they check the wrong box, they forget a comma, and then when you go back to renew, they say, wait, you're not even in our system. And you say, but I was in your system. I had a hyphen in my name. And you took it out and they don't know what you're talking about. And then all of a sudden you say, I had a thing of Queen Charlotte and where is her? And no, I promise, this dress is mine. And I think that's probably how it happened.
- [24:54]
Ben
And the romantic Emmy, or the fan of fiction at least has this cinematic moment stuck in my head, which almost certainly didn't happen, wherein the Queen says, and take these garments with you. Take them. Hence, they are soiled. You know what I mean?
- [25:10]
Christopher Haciotes
They've been touched by the poor. Yeah.
- [25:13]
Ben
Yes, they've been touched by the poor. Which should also be a cr.
- [25:18]
Noel
Ben, so much noise out there about hair loss. Ten in one, shampoos, random little bits of advice, expensive clinic visits. But you know what, man? I think for us, HIMS cuts through all of it with real trusted treatments and a 100% online process.
- [25:34]
Ben
Yeah. Hims offers convenient access to a range of prescription hair loss treatments with ingredients that actually work. You know, chews, oral medications, serums, sprays, you name it.
- [25:46]
Christopher Haciotes
Yeah.
- [25:46]
Noel
And you shouldn't have to go out of your way to feel like yourself again. HIMSS brings expert care straight to you with 100% online access to personalized treatment plans that put your goals first for simple online access to personal and affordable care for hair loss, ED, weight loss, and more.
- [26:03]
Ben
Visit hims.comhistory that's himss.comhistory for your free online visit hims.comhistory Featured products include compounded
- [26:13]
Noel
drug products which the FDA does not approve or verify for safety, effectiveness or quality.
- [26:18]
Ben
Prescription required. See website for full details, restrictions and important safety information.
- [26:23]
Noel
Individual results may vary based on studies of topical and oral minoxidil and finasteride.
- [26:28]
Dr. Joy (Therapy for Black Girls Ad)
This is Dr. Joy from therapy for Black Girls. If you could enjoy a spotless space without so much scrubbing, wouldn't you? Of course you would. Well, I've got you. Dawn Power Wash Dish spray cuts through the mess and gets everything clean in half the time. We're talking about both the toughest messes in everyday dishes. Plus, its work goes beyond the sink, like to clean counters, stoves, grills, and to remove stains on laundry. And it's really good at getting those hard to clean dishes. So basically, dawn powerwash cleans everything from dishes to grills, removing all the grease and grime and does it twice as fast. Not bad. You can find Dawn Power Wash dish spray at your favorite retailer. Dawn is a proud sponsor of the Elton John Impact Awards, honoring those who have helped shape a more inclusive and compassionate world with their artistry, advocacy, and unwavering commitment to equality. And we like to take this opportunity to congratulate all of this year's deserving honorees. You won't want to miss the Elton John Impact Awards podcast, available on June 1st on the iHeartRadio app. And everywhere podcasts are heard, I turned off news altogether.
- [27:34]
Ben
I hate to say it, but I
- [27:35]
Dr. Joy (Therapy for Black Girls Ad)
don't trust much of anything.
- [27:38]
Christopher Haciotes
It's the rage bait.
- [27:41]
Ben
It feels like it's trying to divide people. We got clear facts.
- [27:46]
Malcolm Glebel
Maybe we could calm down a little.
- [27:50]
Ad Voice (Various)
NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the Facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America.
- [28:03]
Malcolm Glebel
Hello. Hello, this is Malcolm Glebel from Smart talks with IBM. Today. We're diving into a fascinating conversation with Stefano Pallard, head of fan development for Scuderia Ferrari hp.
- [28:14]
Stefano Pallard
Your pronunciation is. It's strongly American. It's more Scuderia Ferrari.
- [28:20]
Malcolm Glebel
I'm still working on rolling my R's, but what I was able to learn from Stefano was the importance of engaging the tifosi, the Ferrari superfans. In the digital age.
- [28:30]
Stefano Pallard
Ferrari fans and super fans want to be part of something, want to belong to something. So they want to be part of a community. And ultimately they want to be part of a winning team.
- [28:41]
Malcolm Glebel
You've got Ferrari, which has a long history, design history, and now you're interacting in a kind of digital space. I'm curious how you balance those two traditions.
- [28:55]
Stefano Pallard
When it comes to fan engagement, it's really digital technology. And digital channels, are they enabled to create a deeper connection with our fans?
- [29:03]
Malcolm Glebel
To learn more about how Ferrari and IBM are using technology to build deeper connections with fans, visit IBM.com ferrari.
- [29:18]
Christopher Haciotes
So at this point, though, we, although we're going to be with her for the rest of this story, we kind of say goodbye to Sarah Wilson.
- [29:27]
Ben
We do.
- [29:27]
Christopher Haciotes
We say goodbye to Sarah Wilson. And we say hello to Princess Susanna Caroline Matilda, sister of Queen Charlotte, forced
- [29:36]
Ben
into exile in the colonies following a very enigmatic family scandal.
- [29:42]
Christopher Haciotes
Oh, you don't want to talk about it. It's too hard.
- [29:45]
Ben
It's impolite.
- [29:46]
Christopher Haciotes
No, it's royalty. It's not the sort of thing you bring up at a polite dinner conversation in Virginia when you are a princess.
- [29:55]
Ben
When you are a princess. And also it would be violating the privacy of the royal family.
- [30:02]
Christopher Haciotes
And who would want to do that?
- [30:03]
Ben
That's a crime.
- [30:04]
Christopher Haciotes
That's terrible.
- [30:05]
Ben
So this is strange. First off, the chutzpah alone, you know, congratulations to Princess Susannah Caroline Matilda. This is the kind of khan that is difficult to pull off. However, she has several powerful things working to her advantage. First, as you mentioned, Christopher, she has all this stuff. Probably the most powerful or most impactful of the material possession she has for her new identity will be that miniature portrait because of the sentimental value you mentioned earlier. But also, and equally as important here, she has intimate knowledge of life in the royal court.
- [30:50]
Christopher Haciotes
Yeah, she's on the other side of an ocean, but she can still talk to people about the goings on at the Queen's house, who's speaking with whom and who's falling out with whom and how things are going upstairs and downstairs. And, you know, she's. She's presenting herself as Susanna Caroline Matilda, which I should also add of Mecklenburg Strelitz.
- [31:12]
Ben
Oh, yes, yes, very important.
- [31:14]
Christopher Haciotes
Yeah. The Mecklenburg Strelitz is a northern German dynasty, sort of who, you know, Queen Charlotte was part of that family. And they've had their bloodline influencing royalty throughout Europe. But as the former Sarah Wilson is presenting herself as. As Susannah Caroline Matilda Princess, you know, she really harnesses, I think, a bit of nostalgia for what's going on. Back to. Because again, a lot of the people living in the United States or what would become the United States, still think of themselves as British subjects as, you know, not as American citizens. To them, the stories of the Queen, stories of the king, stories of what's happening in London, those to them are stories from home. And so there is that nostalgia and that yearning. And apparently Princess Susanna really had an easier in with some of the older generation in Virginia, the ones who still thought of themselves as British, as English. And you know, she could tell them what was going on and kind of let them relive their. And maybe it's been decades since they were back home.
- [32:23]
Ben
And there's also this interesting mechanism that could occur whenever you're working with nostalgia, which is she could mention a name or a title that these people, especially the old guard, would have been familiar with and then let them fill in the blanks based on the scant information she actually had. And when she does that, they would feel that they were learning something new. But just as importantly, they would feel that they were displaying their knowledge and therefore they were still people with their, what do we say, with their ear to the wind, their eyes peeled, their, let's see there.
- [33:04]
Christopher Haciotes
Yeah, toenails to the grindstone, something like that, sure.
- [33:07]
Ben
Yes. Their fingers are the toenails on the pulse. So they would still feel relevant having this knowledge. We can also, I think reasonably assume that even for the people who are not the older generation, there was tremendous social cachet to be had in hosting not just a member of English aristocracy, but the siblings of the Queen. And you know, already again, 1771, 1772, as you said, we're just a few years out from the Revolutionary War, as we call it in this country. And this also plays into displays of loyalism.
- [33:55]
Christopher Haciotes
Well, that's the thing. So, you know, Princess Susanna is telling people she's been sent to the colonies because of some falling out back home. She, I can't get into the details, but she will soon be restored to her rightful position back home. Ah, yes, and that's, you know, so she's at these dinner parties, at these salons, at these social events, mingling, whining and dining. And so people are eager to really buy into the story because if she's telling the truth, even if there's doubt in their minds, if she's telling the truth, they are now socially connected to a princess. So if she's restored to power, let's say they need a favor, let's say they have a son who needs a high paying position at a company, let's say they need some land grants, let's say they need to, gosh, I don't know, raise an army for whatever they want.
- [34:44]
Ben
To do whatever that might be. Yeah.
- [34:46]
Christopher Haciotes
You know, old rich people, they got things armies can do.
- [34:50]
Ben
That is absolutely true. There is a third advantage that this part of American or colonial society sees, and that's, you know, I can pay you, Princess, since we are such very good friends. The typical. Let's call it an administrative fee. Not a bribe, but the typical administrative fee that would be expected in order to have myself or a relation of mine granted a position, maybe on the court, maybe associated with it somehow with some government organ or body as soon as you return. And we know that will be soon. So they saw this as an investment in many ways. They were actually giving. This is where the con part comes in. They were actually giving Princess Susanna currency.
- [35:46]
Christopher Haciotes
They were giving her cash money.
- [35:47]
Ben
Yes.
- [35:48]
Christopher Haciotes
Cash money.
- [35:49]
Ben
Yes, they were.
- [35:49]
Christopher Haciotes
It speaks just as strongly 300 years ago as it does today. But also gifts, I imagine. Places to stay, access to carriages, you know, a nice bedroom for a week.
- [36:02]
Ben
Or wardrobe. Yeah.
- [36:04]
Christopher Haciotes
All that stuff. Here, have a horse. Yeah, why not?
- [36:07]
Ben
We've all been in that situation. Here, look, take this horse.
- [36:10]
Christopher Haciotes
This one for me.
- [36:12]
Ben
Whichever one.
- [36:12]
Christopher Haciotes
I'm not even a princess.
- [36:13]
Ben
Whichever one you want.
- [36:14]
Christopher Haciotes
But, Ben, you make me feel like one.
- [36:16]
Ben
Oh, thank you, Christopher. Thank you, Christopher. I learned it all from Casey Pegram. But you know what, though? These sorts of shenanigans are increasingly difficult to pull off over time.
- [36:29]
Christopher Haciotes
Over time. And so she went all over the colonies. This wasn't just Virginia. This wasn't just Maryland. She was in Georgia. She was in the Carolinas. She met the governor of North Carolina. I mean, this is like high level. High level stuff. She has access, but people have some questions.
- [36:43]
Ben
That's right. And they want to be very careful with the manner in which they pose
- [36:49]
Christopher Haciotes
these questions to someone like Princess Susanna Carolina Matilda, sister to the. The Queen family of Mecklenburg Strelitz.
- [36:58]
Ben
Nailed it.
- [36:59]
Christopher Haciotes
Not only, but she had a couple other aliases, too. She also went by the Marquioness de Waldegrave. She was also known as the Princess of Cronenberg.
- [37:07]
Ben
No association with the director.
- [37:09]
Christopher Haciotes
That we know of.
- [37:10]
Ben
That we know of. Yes. That's very fair. Yeah. She would use these names on different occasions, and she would, as you said, travel widely. She was meeting tremendously influential people, and folks were starting to ask questions. Because in these circles, there would be people who speak German.
- [37:31]
Christopher Haciotes
Yeah. And if she was supposedly from Germany, raised in Germany.
- [37:35]
Ben
Yeah.
- [37:37]
Christopher Haciotes
How come you don't speak German?
- [37:39]
Ben
Right. She refused to. Perhaps because of the quarrel.
- [37:43]
Christopher Haciotes
Yeah. Or she was in the New World, speaking a new language. But Even then she spoke perfect English.
- [37:50]
Ben
Flawless English.
- [37:51]
Christopher Haciotes
Yeah. You know why? Because she was English.
- [37:54]
Ben
Oh, yeah, that's a real Keyser Soze moment for me. But yeah, people, people were saying, well, that's weird because I have been speaking English for decades and decades and decades. I grew up speaking German and I still have a little bit of an accent, you know what I mean? So why is she flawless with it? And then there was another question that seems very obvious to us in retrospect.
- [38:18]
Christopher Haciotes
Well, it's the one where everyone thinks, wait a minute, does Queen Charlotte have a sister?
- [38:25]
Ben
Right. Why haven't I heard of her?
- [38:28]
Christopher Haciotes
Maybe she's able to turn it around and really play on people's insecurities and say, maybe I wasn't important enough to know about the queen's sister.
- [38:36]
Ben
Ooh, yeah. Or maybe you're not. Yeah. Maybe you're not as plugged in as you want other people at this dinner party to believe. And so people, probably for some time, that strategy is effective and people are reticent to voice their concerns because they don't want to seem to be the odd person out.
- [38:56]
Christopher Haciotes
Might I also suggest that maybe men act a little dumb in the presence of someone who might be a princess?
- [39:04]
Ben
I think that is an excellent suggestion. Having not, to my knowledge, at this point in life interacted with a princess. I can't speak from experience, but I feel like that is. I feel like that is unfortunately a very astute observation.
- [39:20]
Christopher Haciotes
Men can be dumb?
- [39:22]
Ben
No way. So you're right, though, that's a good point. That's one that a lot of historians don't talk about.
- [39:28]
Christopher Haciotes
Well, it's not necessarily brought up. It's not like all these people who are giving her gifts are described as suitors, particularly. But knowing men, knowing that sort of patriarchal society that was in place at the time, I have to imagine that some of these people who are wealthy landowners in the colonies, meeting a single young princess, plying her with gifts, might have some motives of marrying into royalty or other motives.
- [39:56]
Ben
Yeah, absolutely.
- [39:58]
Christopher Haciotes
And. And men will do dumb things.
- [40:00]
Ben
Yes.
- [40:01]
Christopher Haciotes
When they have those motives.
- [40:02]
Ben
Absolutely. I mean, I would say people in general, but in this situation, it's only fair to note that that trend toward thick headedness is probably accelerated in men.
- [40:15]
Christopher Haciotes
But the scam didn't hold.
- [40:16]
Ben
The scam did not hold because speaking of men, we have to reintroduce a character that briefly appeared earlier in the tale, Mr. W. Duvall, who, it turns out, is not happy about Sarah Wilson as he knew her.
- [40:33]
Christopher Haciotes
And maybe not that dumb of a Man. Because eventually, after a couple years pass, he hears a description of this princess. He hears talk, and he probably says, oh, that. Wow. A princess in the colonies. That's interesting. What does she look like? And they say, this is what she looks like. And he says, I know someone who looks like that.
- [40:52]
Ben
Yes.
- [40:53]
Christopher Haciotes
And it's Sarah Wilson.
- [40:54]
Ben
And he has been trying to find the one that got away, Literally. So it is autumn of 1773. Remember, she's been on the run since 1771. Ish.
- [41:08]
Christopher Haciotes
And he's been looking for her actually since 1771. I have here in front of me from the Pennsylvania Gazette, published on October 11, 1771, an advertisement for a runaway slave. And this is what William Duvall wrote in the newspaper back in 1771. He took out an ad run away from the subscriber, a convict servant maid named Sarah Wilson, but has changed name to Lady Susanna Carolina Matilda, which has made the public believe that she was his Majesty's sister. And here's where we get into the realizing what she looked like. She has a blemish in her right eye, black rolled hair, stoops in the shoulders, makes a common practice of writing, and marked her clothes with a crown and a bee. Whosoever secures the said servant woman or takes her home shall receive five pistols besides all costs and charges. So if you find Sarah Wilson, all your expenses are paid and you get five pistols.
- [42:08]
Ben
What a deal.
- [42:08]
Christopher Haciotes
Five pistols. And I should say I'm going to applaud myself for reading that because this is an old timey advertisement from an old timey newspaper. And it's got those medial S's which
- [42:19]
Ben
are such a pain.
- [42:21]
Christopher Haciotes
They look like an F. They do look like an S without the crossbar. They go all the way back to old English. And I'm glad that they're gone now. You know the thank, thank you movable type. We don't need all those weird looking S's that make everything sound like an act of Congress.
- [42:40]
Ben
Act of Congress, Yes. Yeah, it's true. Those are paid. And. And I applaud your recital there, Christopher.
- [42:47]
Christopher Haciotes
I applaud Casey for cutting out all of my flubs. Flubs, Slubs. Flubs. Flubs. No. Well, that's the thing. You use a curvy S at the end, but not at the beginning. So if it looks like an. The word flub is flub. The word flubs would to us look like flubs.
- [43:05]
Ben
And we can only hope that old man Willie D. Was going through the same process as he was writing this advertisement.
- [43:13]
Christopher Haciotes
So I really, really hope at some point there's some sort of merchandise out there that people can have a bumper sticker or a. A little. A little pin or some just gaudy T shirt they can wear that says, you know, I am a proud, ridiculous historian.
- [43:28]
Ben
That's great, Casey. Do you like that one?
- [43:30]
Christopher Haciotes
I love that idea. Historians. Yeah.
- [43:32]
Ben
Yeah.
- [43:32]
Christopher Haciotes
Medial S is for everyone.
- [43:34]
Ben
Casey, on the case. We'll put it to a vote to let us know what you think about these. What are they called? Medial S's.
- [43:42]
Christopher Haciotes
A medial S. Yeah, it's. It's also known as a long S because a short S is the short round one or curvy or, you know, just an S. As we would. As we would say.
- [43:53]
Ben
I like the. I like the depths of resentment that are. That are emanating across the table.
- [43:59]
Christopher Haciotes
Hey, Matt, you didn't have to read this, so I might. We do have another bit of old timey newspaper right here. I may pass it to you. And. And, oh, no, you to the test.
- [44:09]
Ben
Oh, no. We've created a monster.
- [44:12]
Christopher Haciotes
But it's monfter. Monster? No, monfter.
- [44:18]
Ben
Mumfter. That's fun to say, actually.
- [44:21]
Christopher Haciotes
I think we should get back on track. So they're on the hunt.
- [44:24]
Ben
Yeah. The word is out. And in addition to publicizing this advertisement and appeal and offering this reward, he sends, he being Willie, sends one of his employees, a man named Michael Dalton, to retrieve Sarah. Dalton has, you know, he has a certain set of skills, Liam Neeson style, we can only assume, because he does eventually track the princess down to a plantation in Charleston right after she left. So he is hot on her wake, hot on her trail, and then he doesn't give up. He follows the clues, Carmen Sandiego style, and he finds her at a neighboring plantation. He captures her. He takes her back to that estate in Bush Creek, Frederick County.
- [45:17]
Christopher Haciotes
And that's in Virginia?
- [45:19]
Ben
Yes. Yeah, that's in Virginia.
- [45:21]
Christopher Haciotes
Is that the end of the story? She just gets captured and she goes right back into servitude?
- [45:25]
Ben
Yeah, sometimes things just end. I'm kidding.
- [45:27]
Christopher Haciotes
I'm kidding. Okay. I was home on this pony.
- [45:33]
Ben
Right. Well, you still have to take some time to name the pony before you ride it out. And I would advise something heavy on the Fs and the Ss. But this is not the end of the story, is it, Christopher?
- [45:47]
Christopher Haciotes
You know it's not. There's more scamming ahead, as may not be so surprising with Ms. Sarah Wilson. So Sarah is on the plantation. She's working at this point. It's 1775, though. But Duval's not at home because he has left the plantation to fight in the militia for the American War of Independence.
- [46:07]
Ben
Yes. Which we now know as the Revolutionary War. And while he is gone, a very, very strange coincidence occurs. This is the kind of thing you can't write in fiction. Because no one will believe.
- [46:25]
Christopher Haciotes
Yeah, it seems like this seems like a really unsatisfying end to things. Cause it's just so improbable. But according to the historical record, this is what happened. Another either enslaved person or servant girl, also by the name of Sarah Wilson, crosses paths with Sarah Wilson. That you and I and the listeners know.
- [46:47]
Ben
And this is very vague. We want to let all of our fellow listeners know. We are very well aware that this is incredibly vague. Somehow our Sarah Wilson, the former princess, is able to switch, I guess, bodies. Or make people confuse the new Sarah Wilson for her. And then during this confusion, while her owner is away, while this creep Duval is away, she escapes. And this time she heads north.
- [47:23]
Christopher Haciotes
Yeah, the southward direction did not work out so well for her in the past when she was a princess. So she splits, she goes north. She leaves Sarah Wilson II in place of Sarah Wilson the First. Too bad for Sarah Wilson ii. I guess this is the end of her story. Although maybe she was already gonna be on that plantation anyway. And Sarah Wan was like, oh, no, no. That's Sarah Wilson over there. Are you looking for Sarah Wilson? That's Sarah. Hey, are you named Sarah Wilson? And she says, yeah, that's me. And then she's like, well, I'm just gonna walk away as you guys go talk to her. And, you know, there's just a lot of this, like, convincing people and gift of gab. You know, you gotta really be a smooth talker. This reminds me of the story a little bit of that bridge.
- [48:10]
Ben
Yeah, yeah. Tabor Bridge. Right? The two French marshals who decided to con their way across the Danube.
- [48:19]
Christopher Haciotes
Yeah, you and Noel had a really great episode about this and.
- [48:22]
Ben
Oh, thanks, man.
- [48:23]
Christopher Haciotes
Yeah, you know, ridiculous historians. If you have not listened to that episode, go dig it up. I mean, we kind of just gave you the surprise ending. But it's still a great story regardless. There's all sorts of weird boasting and French chest puffery and, you know, almost bombings and Hungarian Confusion and. Which, by the way, really good band name, I think.
- [48:44]
Ben
Hungarian Confusion. That is an excellent band name, my friend. Yeah. Hungary. Hang on. Sorry. Everybody listening. I'm going to write that down, okay? I can't.
- [48:54]
Christopher Haciotes
Ben's actually just filing for an LLC right now.
- [48:56]
Ben
Yes. Hungary Revolution.
- [48:59]
Dr. Joy (Therapy for Black Girls Ad)
This is Dr. Joy from Therapy for black Girls. If you could enjoy a spotless space without so much scrubbing, wouldn't you? Of course you would. Well, I've got you. Dawn Power Wash Dish Spray cuts through the mess and gets everything clean in half the time. We're talking about both the toughest messes and everyday dishes. Plus, its work goes beyond the sink, like to clean counters, stoves, grills, and to remove stains on laundry. And it's really good at getting those hard to clean dishes. So basically, Dawn Power Wash cleans everything from dishes to grills, removing all the grease and grime and does it twice as fast. Not bad. You can find Dawn Power Wash Dish Spray at your favorite retailer. Dawn is a proud sponsor of the Elton John Impact Awards, honoring those who have helped shape a more inclusive and compassionate world with their artistry, advocacy, and unwavering commitment to equality. And we like to take this opportunity to congratulate all of this year's deserving honorees. You won't want to miss the Elton John Impact Awards podcast, available on June 1st on the iHeartRadio app. And everywhere podcasts are heard, I turned off news altogether.
- [50:05]
Ben
I hate to say it, but I
- [50:06]
Dr. Joy (Therapy for Black Girls Ad)
don't trust much of anything thing.
- [50:09]
Christopher Haciotes
It's the rage bait.
- [50:12]
Ben
It feels like it's trying to divide people. We got clear facts.
- [50:17]
Malcolm Glebel
Maybe we could calm down a little.
- [50:22]
Ad Voice (Various)
NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the Facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America.
- [50:34]
Ben
Hello.
- [50:34]
Malcolm Glebel
Hello, this is Malcolm Glabel from Smart talks with IBM Today. We're diving into a fascinating conversation with Stefano Pallard, head of fan development for Scuderia Ferrari hp.
- [50:46]
Stefano Pallard
Your pronunciation is strongly American. It's more Scuderia Ferrari.
- [50:51]
Malcolm Glebel
I'm still working on rolling my R's, but what I was able to learn from Stefano was the importance of engaging the tifosi, the Ferrari super super fans. In the digital age.
- [51:01]
Stefano Pallard
Ferrari fans and super fans want to be part of something, want to belong to something. So they want to be part of a community and ultimately they want to be part of a winning team.
- [51:12]
Malcolm Glebel
You've got Ferrari, which has a long history, design history, and now you're interacting in a kind of digital space. I'm curious how you balance those two traditions.
- [51:26]
Stefano Pallard
When it comes to fan engagement, it's really digital technology. And digital channels are being able to create a deeper connection with our fans.
- [51:34]
Malcolm Glebel
To learn more about how Ferrari and IBM are using technology to build deeper connections with fans, visit IBM.com Ferrari,
- [51:46]
Jennie Garth
this
- [51:46]
Guaranteed Human (Ad Voice)
is Lala Kent from Untraditionally. Lala, ready for my hot take. One thing the math really ain't mathing on lately is international travel. Think about it. Why sit on a plane for 14 hours to get to Lake Como when you could be having the time of your life at Caesars Republic in beautiful Lake Tahoe? Caesars Republic, Lake Tahoe has it all. The splendor of Lake Como without all the low vibe nonsense that comes with international travel. No long flights, no passport hassles, no currency exchange, and best of all, no jet lag. So why not skip the stress and head to Caesars Republic, Lake Tahoe, it's all there. Amazing dining options with restaurants like Wolf by Vanderpump and Gordon Ramsay, Hell's Kitchen, incredible entertainment and non stop excitement throughout your stay with some of the biggest names in music already lined up for this year's Lake Tahoe summer concerts. Spend your days enjoying the pristine lake and natural surroundings. And your nights enjoying the incredible restaurants and world class casino. And don't forget, all this is right in your backyard. Caesars Republic, Lake Tahoe. Book today.
- [52:52]
Christopher Haciotes
But Sarah Wilson, she is not confused about what she's doing. She heads out of Virginia, goes north, and at least for the foreseeable future, lives a somewhat normal life. Still has a lot of her money, which she again, like where, where is
- [53:09]
Ben
she putting that money?
- [53:10]
Christopher Haciotes
Where does the money go? Where does she keep it? Are there secret bank accounts? Does she have secret pockets?
- [53:16]
Ben
Has she literally buried boxes of coin?
- [53:19]
Christopher Haciotes
Maybe she has just like a lot of hair. Yeah, just like a huge head of hair. And there's just like envelopes of money in there. Could be.
- [53:29]
Ben
I mean, at the time it may have been a sound investment perhaps.
- [53:33]
Christopher Haciotes
Yeah, or you know, some money sewn into the lining of a coat or something like that. Anyway, she's got all this money and she ends up all the way up in New York. She actually meets a young military man named William Talbot.
- [53:45]
Ben
Or alternatively, Sterling.
- [53:47]
Christopher Haciotes
Oh, is that right?
- [53:48]
Ben
Well, sometimes it differs. It depends on the source. But yeah, she meets this. She meets a nice young man. And he is a military man. He's a officer in the light dragoons. And the war transpires. Spoiler alert. This part of the North American continent becomes a country we call the United States today.
- [54:10]
Christopher Haciotes
Heard of it?
- [54:10]
Ben
Okay, you're familiar with its work. And the couple decides to stay in this new country.
- [54:16]
Christopher Haciotes
What are they doing?
- [54:17]
Ben
Probably they're avoiding arrest for Sarah returns to England. But they also, she uses her money. Maybe she did this. Maybe she kept jewelry and then sold the jewelry that might have happened. But she uses this money that she has acquired to set up her husband as a businessman. And they live, as far as we can tell from the record, they live happily ever after. They have a lot of kids, and they set up their residence in the Bowery in New York, which at the time was a quiet, nice neighborhood.
- [54:56]
Christopher Haciotes
Kind of a happy ending for her.
- [54:58]
Ben
It is. Especially when you consider how close she came to very, very terrible things. I don't know. It also reminds me in a way, you remember that Disney film, Pinocchio? Right. I do stories. So as a kid, I thought Pinocchio was really cool until one of my friends later on, years and years later, pointed out to me that Pinocchio has this horrible lesson for children in terms of morality.
- [55:25]
Christopher Haciotes
Tell me about it.
- [55:26]
Ben
Well, I'll keep it brief, but Pinocchio from his beginning is told to do the following kind of things or not do these things so that he can ultimately become self actualized and be a real boy. He breaks all of those rules or those commandments or whatever, and then at the end, he gets the reward anyway.
- [55:46]
Christopher Haciotes
That's true.
- [55:47]
Ben
So did Sarah Wilson have a moment? We can tell. One thing we can tell that differentiates her from other con artists is that when she got to a good spot, she stopped. There are other con artists who just can't give up the game.
- [56:02]
Christopher Haciotes
Well, there was a point, though, you know, and this is where I'd like more detail about her life. And I mean, this to me, seems ripe for some Hollywood tale. And I'd love to see this turn into a film and really dig into the story. But there was a time before she met her husband, after she escaped Virginia.
- [56:19]
Ben
Oh, yes.
- [56:20]
Christopher Haciotes
Where she had this little side escapade. And there's not a lot that I could dig up about this, but she teamed up with this criminal who was known by the alias of Tom Bell. He was an Irishman, also known as Patrick o'. Connor. But they kind of worked together for a while and he introduced himself to people as Mr. Edward Augustus Montague, a gentleman of fortune and betrothed lover of Princess Susanna Carolina Matilda.
- [56:50]
Ben
Yeah.
- [56:50]
Christopher Haciotes
So maybe the princess came back after her flight from Virginia and before she settles in New York. Maybe there's this sort of interim of her flirting again with this world of intrigue and all the scams.
- [57:04]
Ben
Yeah.
- [57:05]
Christopher Haciotes
And I don't know much about it.
- [57:07]
Ben
We don't know. We as a species, don't know much about this part of her life, which makes it, by Far one of the most intriguing and fascinating. We don't know much about Patrick o', Connor nor his alias Tom Bell, but we do know they did for a brief time, she did go into a two person con act. And who knows, maybe they really were betrothed.
- [57:35]
Christopher Haciotes
I don't know. I mean, he was a fairly well known criminal at the time. I mean, this could be the sort of thing where maybe they pulled off one last heist and she got out of the life. It's a sort of, you know, like a Danny Ocean kind of situation where she teams up with this acclaimed crime guy, she gets what she needs, and, you know, she has her happily ever after.
- [57:56]
Ben
You also have to wonder whether the man who ultimately became her husband knew about her stint as a princess knew. Did she tell him her true, true, true story? Or did she say, like, maybe I'm an orphan and this is my family fortune. I love you. I don't want to talk about my past. Let's start a new life together in the Bowery. And then maybe he just went head over heels. Christopher. Maybe he was just like, well, I'm in love and being a dude, I'm kind of dumb and I do need some money. And I do need some, as you said, cash money.
- [58:35]
Christopher Haciotes
Oh, speaking of cash money, Bennett, I thought this might be a good way to wrap up because I. This is a little off topic, but it's related to some royalty and some cash money. I wanted to get your opinion and ridiculous historians, if you have any advice for me. I got this email from a Nigerian prince.
- [58:54]
Ben
Oh, okay. Do tell.
- [58:56]
Christopher Haciotes
And he's asking for some money. Okay, should I help him out?
- [59:00]
Ben
How much money is he asking for?
- [59:02]
Christopher Haciotes
More than I've got.
- [59:03]
Ben
Oh, okay then. Without having a doctorate in finance, I would advise you, depending on how much. Well, first, how much time do you have?
- [59:14]
Christopher Haciotes
I don't have enough time. Spoiler alert.
- [59:18]
Ben
Yes.
- [59:19]
Christopher Haciotes
I'm not giving this guy any money. But that's. But the thing is, you know, we're talking about this weird scam of someone putting themselves forth as royalty. And it sounds like the sort of thing like, oh, this is just a thing that, you know, those historical rubes back in the day fell for. It's going on still. I. In preparing to come chat with you guys here, I did a little digging and there was a report last year from the Security Services ADT. In 2018 alone, people in the United States fell prey to the Nigerian scams and other sort of email scams like that, where people are just asking for money to the tune of more than $700,000 last year alone, and it averaged out to about $2,100 per person.
- [60:04]
Ben
Wow.
- [60:04]
Christopher Haciotes
So this. This scam of royalty, this desire to buy into a story, this ability to be hoodwinked, you know, I think it's just baked into humanity. It's just who we are. We want to believe. We want to help. And if someone says they're a prince or a princess, hey, why not?
- [60:25]
Ben
Wow. And it gets our inner fox molder, huh? I want to believe. What I was going to advise you to do. Off the record again, not being a doctorate. Just between you, Casey, me and the millions of us listening.
- [60:39]
Christopher Haciotes
Yeah. You're not recording this, Casey.
- [60:40]
Ben
Right, Right. This is all off the record.
- [60:42]
Christopher Haciotes
Perfect. Yeah. I don't want this out in the world. That would be embarrassing.
- [60:46]
Ben
I've read accounts of people who essentially scammed the scammers, which is on the murky side of unethical pranking.
- [60:55]
Christopher Haciotes
What are you talking. That is fighting the good fight.
- [60:58]
Ben
Well, the idea is they'll say stuff like, sure, you've contacted me. I do have this money. I will give you this information, but first I want to know. First, you need to prove something in good faith or whatever. And I've found situations wherein someone convinced the scammer, or someone who knows the scammer to get a tattoo or to write essays about Harry Potter and things of that nature. So if you have the time and the inclination and you don't feel particularly guilty about trolling people who are trying to steal from you, then I would advise you find the funniest prank to pull.
- [61:42]
Christopher Haciotes
We'll check back in.
- [61:43]
Ben
We'll check back in. And perhaps, Christopher, one day you will be known, too, as a genius of the con. Because one of the most American things about the way we treat con artists here in the US is that they are often begrudgingly admired. You know what I mean? The idea of this slick, talking, clever individual violating social norms and getting away with it, it's imprinted into our DNA. And that's why the Providence, Rhode Island, Gazette and Country Journal in January of 1774 noted that Sara Will Wilson is, quote, the most surprising genius of the female sex that was ever obliged to visit America. Let's just walk past that blatant misogyny there. They're basically saying, smart for a woman, because they're being jerks. But what they're also doing, and what I think is more important for our purposes here, is they are praising the intelligence of this person. They're saying, this is One of the smartest people in this country. Too bad they're not a politician or, you know, a philanthropist.
- [63:01]
Christopher Haciotes
Can't win them all.
- [63:02]
Ben
Can't win them all. But I feel like this was a big win for Casey Nolan, Spirit and I to have you over on the show, and we hope that you enjoyed this episode. We want to hear from you. Let us know some of your favorite historical cons, other than the Trojan horse. Other than that one, you know, that's sort of like going to karaoke and playing Don't Stop Believing and whatever we
- [63:30]
Christopher Haciotes
want to call this con of you somehow being convinced to let me sit in here and chat with you guys. Feel like I've scammed everyone.
- [63:38]
Ben
Hey, yeah, hey, that's a good question. Is your name Christopher, isn't it? I don't know, Casey. I believe him. He's just got such a. Such an amicable air about him, you know? No comment.
- [63:50]
Christopher Haciotes
All right. Just. Just call me Princess.
- [63:52]
Ben
Oh, wow. You guys are in on this together. Well, here's hoping that I don't get scammed out of millions of dollars, but if I do, I'm glad it was from you, too. Thank you, as always, to our super producer, Casey Pegram. Thank you to Alex Williams, who composed our track. Thank you to Gabe, our research associate, Christopher. We often thank you on this show. So it's a little strange that you're here now. I'm really glad you that to thank you in person. Thanks for coming on, man.
- [64:20]
Christopher Haciotes
You're welcome. Thank you for having me, Bannon. And thanks for having me, ridiculous historians.
- [64:24]
Ben
And stay tuned for our next episode, wherein Christopher and I will explore Not a not a con.
- [64:33]
Christopher Haciotes
No. Things are going to get a little grimier. Grimmer, Grimmer, grimier. Just a little dark, a little gross, but fun. Still ridiculous.
- [64:45]
Ben
Stay tuned.
- [64:53]
Noel
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
- [65:00]
Kohler Ambassador
When Kohler, global design leader in luxurious kitchen and bath products, asked me to be their ambassador for timeless, elegant, durable cast iron, I said, I'm in. Soon after, I was in their Kohler, Wisconsin foundry, watching molten iron poured enamel applied by hand, and the beautiful finished pieces ready to ship. Since 1883, Kohler cast iron has been crafted by incredible artisans, and seeing it firsthand gave me a whole new appreciation for their craftsmanship. Now I'm proud to lend my stamp of approval to my favorite Kohler cast iron products for their durability, beauty, and enduring style. Shop my curated pics@kohler.com as the Kohler Cast Iron Ambassador, I say long live cast iron.
- [65:51]
Tom Hanks (World War II Documentary Ad)
The Second World War is the largest event in human history.
- [65:55]
Ad Voice (Various)
A 20 part documentary series with Tom Hanks.
- [65:58]
Tom Hanks (World War II Documentary Ad)
No part of the globe was untouched, no life unchanged.
- [66:04]
Ad Voice (Various)
Experience. The ultimate account of World War II.
- [66:07]
Tom Hanks (World War II Documentary Ad)
Every single person had a story. These are the stories that make us who we are.
- [66:15]
Ad Voice (Various)
World War II with Tom Hanks new episode Monday at 8. Part of history honors 250 only on the history Channel.
- [66:21]
Jennie Garth
This is Jennie Garth from I Choose Me with Jenny Garth. History is full of mysteries like how people ever survived before. Modern laundry detergent. Luckily, Tide's here with boosted stain fighting for cleaner, whiter, brighter and fresher. Laundry versus Tide Simply. No wonder it was America's number one detergent in sales last year. If it's gotta be clean, it's got to be Tide. Tide is a proud sponsor of the Elton John Impact Awards, honoring those who have helped shape a more inclusive and compassionate world with their artistry, advocacy and unwavering commitment to equality. You won't want to miss the Elton John Impact Awards podcast, available on June 1st on the iHeartRadio app. And everywhere podcasts are heard, lots of
- [67:05]
LifeLock Ad Voice
places can expose you to identity theft. That's why LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity, which is way more than anyone can do on their own. If we find anything suspicious, like new loans or changes to your financial accounts, we alert you right away, all through text, phone, email or the LifeLock app. Save up to 30% your first year. Visit lifelock.com iHeart Terms Apply this is an iHeart podcast.
- [67:36]
Guaranteed Human (Ad Voice)
Guaranteed human.