CLASSIC: That Time Ohio and Michigan Almost Went To War

Summary

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Ridiculous History – Classic: That Time Ohio and Michigan Almost Went To War

Podcast: Ridiculous History
Hosts: Ben Bolin and Noel Brown
Episode Release: July 18, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this classic episode of Ridiculous History, Ben Bolin and Noel Brown explore the bizarre real-life conflict known as the "Toledo War," when Ohio and the Michigan Territory nearly came to blows over a narrow, hotly disputed slice of land. The hosts investigate the roots of state rivalries, the role of faulty maps, political maneuvering, youthful governors, absurd laws, and a cast of characters straight out of a tall tale—all leading up to a near-skirmish that would ultimately be settled not with bloodshed, but with political compromise (and some lingering resentment).

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

State Rivalries—A Uniquely American Pastime

• The episode kicks off by examining the enduring phenomenon of U.S. state rivalries, from Alabama vs. Georgia to Oregon's disdain for California drivers. These rivalries, often manifesting in jokes or sports competitions, sometimes have much deeper historical roots.
• Quote: "Regardless of what state you find yourself in, you can find another state that most of the people in that state hate." – Ben (04:02)

Etymology Interlude: Demonyms

• Noel takes a brief but memorable detour into the term "demonym," the word used to describe residents of a region—e.g., "Hoosiers" for Indiana.
• Quote: "Hoosier is a demonym. So I'm sorry, I just had to share that with the class." – Noel (00:50)

The Seeds of the Toledo War

• The dispute arose over a 468-square-mile stretch called the Toledo Strip, both claimed by Ohio (already a state by 1803) and the Michigan Territory (not yet a state).
• The confusion originated with the Northwest Ordinance of 1787 and a crucial mapping error on the "Mitchell Map," which put Lake Michigan's southern tip several miles north of its true location, muddling survey lines.
• Quote: "They did a piss poor job because the problem is that the maps they had were wrong." – Ben (10:55)

The Borders Blur

• A fur trapper first alerted officials to the inaccuracy, which was largely ignored.
• Ohio's state constitution attempted to cement its claim, but as the Michigan Territory organized, both sides escalated efforts by sending in settlers, building infrastructure, collecting taxes, and eventually stationing militias.
• Quote: "It's based on a series of misunderstandings... both thought they owned this little strip of land." – Ben (10:08)

The Importance of Toledo

• The Erie Canal's completion (1825) made the area around Lake Erie a pivotal trading and economic hub. Control over the port city of Toledo would be a financial coup.
• Both sides sought to legitimize their claims: Michigan through infrastructure and governance moves; Ohio by lobbying Washington, D.C., and leveraging its state status.

Political Machinations and the “Boy Governor”

• Congress split along lines: the Senate favored Ohio, while the House sided with Michigan.
• Michigan's governor, Stevens T. Mason (dubbed "the Boy Governor"), was just 23 years old, adding youthful audacity to the mix.
• Quote: "He is 23 years old. Don't they call him the boy king or something like that?" – Ben & Noel (24:12, 24:21)

Laws, Militias, and Escalation

• Michigan’s “Pains and Penalties Act” (Feb 1835) targeted Ohio supporters, threatening them with jail and hefty fines.
• Both sides deployed militias: Michigan with about 1,000 men, Ohio with 600.
• Notable Event: The only documented injury—Michigan sheriff Joseph Wood was stabbed (non-fatally) by One Stickney, son of major Ohio partisan Benjamin Stickney, in a failed arrest attempt.
• Quote: “Stickney's sons who are named 1, Stickney and 2. Stickney... And they stab Sheriff Wood with a pocket knife. But not fatally…Tis but a scratch.” – Ben & Noel (26:24–26:49)
• The hosts riff on odd naming conventions, like "One," "Two," and whimsical tangents on numbers as names (27:07–27:34).

Fraught “Justice” and the Kangaroo Court

• Ohio’s governor attempted to legitimize their claim with a symbolic court session (“kangaroo court”) in Toledo, which Michigan nearly disrupted by marching a militia—only to find Ohio’s court officials had convened and absconded under cover of midnight.
• Quote: “It was a midnight court session, and then just booked it out of there because they didn't want to get slaughtered.” – Noel (34:47)

Federal Intervention and Resolution

• The situation escalated to both sides primed for conflict, funded and manned.
• President Andrew Jackson intervened, removing Governor Mason from office and replacing him with John Horner (who was despised and immediately replaced).
• Michigan ultimately agreed to cede the Toledo Strip in exchange for statehood and the resource-rich but then-undervalued Upper Peninsula.
• At first, the Upper Peninsula was disparaged, but as its mines proved lucrative, Michigan’s “raw deal” softened.
• Quote: "The Detroit Free Press at the time had categorized this upper peninsular area as a barren wasteland of perpetual snows. But...they discovered some precious mineable materials...So it turned out to be not a bad trade." – Noel (37:48)

Aftermath and Legacy

• The disputes over the precise border lingered until as late as 1915, with ceremonial handshakes marking peace.
• As recently as 1973, a Supreme Court ruling finalized water rights in Lake Erie.
• Today, the Toledo War is largely remembered as an absurd, almost comical chapter of interstate animosity, channeled now into college football rivalries.
• Quote: “The Toledo War nowadays is remembered as the most ferocious conflict in Ohio, Michigan history. Even worse than the college football rivalries.” – Ben (38:22)
• The hosts invite listeners to share their own stories of state or regional rivalries.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "It's based on a series of misunderstandings. First off, I love the name Toledo War. It sounds like it's the name of an album." – Ben (10:08)
• "You guys screwed up. That's not on us. Toledo is and will always be a part of Ohio as God intended it." – Ben (20:25)
• "In 1835, this is when everything started to go really off the rails." – Ben (23:00)
• Naming Humor:
  • "Stickney's sons who are named 1, Stickney and 2. Stickney." – Noel (26:24)
  • Host tangents on naming conventions and favorite numbers as names (26:57–27:51)
• On Improv:
  • “All of us listening now who have ever done improv know that it can be tiresome to continually invite your friends to improv. So never feel...obligated or anything other than invited to that kind of outside of work shtick.” – Ben (42:22)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Brief around state rivalries and etymology: [00:16–01:13]
• Introduction of the Toledo War: [09:35–10:52]
• Deep dive into map error and origins: [10:08–11:26]
• Fur trapper correspondence and the ignored warning: [11:26–12:43]
• The rising value of Toledo post–Erie Canal: [17:20–18:13]
• Mechanics and escalation of the dispute (laws, militias, standoffs): [19:04–24:10]
• The naming of One and Two Stickney and the stabbing incident: [26:21–26:47]
• The “kangaroo court” episode: [31:26–34:47]
• Presidential intervention, the political compromise, and Michigan’s statehood: [36:05–37:48]
• Modern legacy and final resolution: [38:22–39:34]
• Listener invitation and close: [39:34–42:45]

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Episode Tone & Style

Ben and Noel maintain their signature mix of sharp wit, affable banter, fascination with historical absurdity, and a consistent eye for the comic and poignant details—the “ridiculous” in history.

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Summary

This episode is a brisk, lively journey through a delightfully ridiculous border skirmish that, despite moments ripe for slapstick violence and actual militias mustering, ended not with glory or carnage but with a handshake, a trade, and an enduring regional grudge. Touching (often very funny) asides about names, maps, and state pride make this a perfect Ridiculous History episode.

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For Further Exploration

Listeners are encouraged to share rivalries of their own, both domestic and international.
Contact: [e-mail]
Social: Instagram and Facebook (“Ridiculous Historians”)
Hosts on IG: @Benbolan, @BrionicInsider

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Transcript

[Ben Bolan]

Fellow ridiculous historians, we are returning to you with this week's classic episode Special Shout out to folks in Ohio, AKA the Buckeye State, as well as Michigan. Noel, you've been to Michigan, right?

[Noel]

Ben, I have been to Michigan, and you bringing up the Buckeye State reminded me of a conversation we had just the other day about what a Hoosier is. It's actually kind of much hotly debated. Some people think it's a connection to the who's here greeting, like Hoosier, you know? And then there's a dude named John Finley who popularized the term in a poem called the Hoosier's Nest. And then there are a couple of other reasons, but the word that I learned, Ben, was demonym, which is a word that is used to describe a native or resident of a particular region. And Hoosier is a demonym. So I'm sorry, I just had to share that with the class.

[Ben Bolan]

Man, I love you for that. We love a specific word. English is full of them. Indiana is technically full of Hoosiers. Ohio being the Buckeye State, we learned the etymology of that as well in our earlier conversation.

[Noel]

It's apparently a poisonous nut, right?

[Ben Bolan]

Yes, a poisonous nut, as some of my ex girlfriends have described me. We'll keep it. This episode, Noel, is about the time that Ohio and Michigan almost went to actual war.

[Noel]

Yeah, over some lakes.

[Ben Bolan]

Some great ones indeed.

[Noel]

Let's roll the tape, y'.

[Bethenny Frankel]

All.

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[Noel]

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[Ben Bolan]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. State Rivalries One of my favorite things about traveling around this fair nation of ours is that regardless of what state you find yourself in, you can find another state that most of the people in that state hate. So if you go to Alabama, you'll find a lot of people who hate Georgia. If you go to Georgia, you'll find a lot of people who hate Alabama. Hi, my name's Ben.

[Noel]

Hi, my name's Nolan. I was just recently in Oregon driving around in a rental car with California plates and I was counseled that I better tread lightly because that's not a good look. And people from Oregon do not cotton to those city slickers from California crossing over into their fair state. And here's the problem. The car I was in was a big giant suv. So a real hog of the road and it had a hair trigger horn. So I was constantly accidentally honking at people in traffic and getting some pretty nasty looks.

[Ben Bolan]

Well listeners, super producer Casey Pegram and I can assure you that that Noel is a responsible driver and you don't just lay on your horn.

[Noel]

You know what I mean?

[Ben Bolan]

It's tough when you're driving a rental car. And you're right, you're right about California. A lot of people have been moving to Oregon, especially the western part of the state by the coast. And when I had spent time in Portland, that's one thing everybody got behind. They were like, oh, these Californians.

[Noel]

Californians coming in here taking over our state.

[Ben Bolan]

Stay on the 405. So today's story is a story about state rivalry, but it's not about that kind of funny. Let's tell a one liner joke sort of rivalry. What do we mean by one liner joke? I'll tell an example that makes fun of Georgia. Since this is our state. Of course, we don't want to offend anybody. So let's say you're in Alabama or you're in Florida. And someone says, hey, did you hear about that hurricane that hit Savannah? And they say, no, what happened? They said, well, it did like millions of dollars worth of improve. That's a. That's a joke that you hear thrown around a lot.

[Noel]

Savannah's a beautiful city, though. Ben. Who would say that about Savannah? Who would say that?

[Ben Bolan]

I don't know. Jerks.

[Noel]

Who are these monsters? Well, they're jokes.

[Ben Bolan]

Savannah is a town with a lot of history. It's got a weird vibe. And there's a. Like a nuclear weapon lost off the coast there. Did you know that?

[Noel]

I didn't, but I know there's a lot of ghosts there.

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[Noel]

Yeah, it was one of those ghosty port towns like New Orleans.

[Ben Bolan]

And it's. Oh, man. Yeah, we should go down there. We should go down there on a ridiculous history field trip.

[Noel]

We could do a ghost tour.

[Ben Bolan]

We could do a ghost tour.

[Noel]

I think it's in the budget. What do you say?

[Ben Bolan]

Let's do it. Casey, are you down for a ghost tour?

[Noel]

I'd love to do that.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah.

[Noel]

Savers going to Hawaii. They can at least send us to Savannah for a ghost tour.

[Ben Bolan]

Really? Savers? A food, lifestyle and travel show. It also involves food science. Do check it out if you get a chance.

[Noel]

Dear friends Lauren Vogelbaum and Annie Reese,

[Ben Bolan]

who are going to Hawaii. That is true. I asked them to bring back some spam for me. We'll see.

[Noel]

You know they sell spam here in the states.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, but it's. It's different. There are more flavors in Hawaii.

[Noel]

Okay. Did you specifically ask for a flavor or just say gimme, get weird with it.

[Ben Bolan]

Say, give me one that I can't get in the States. Cool.

[Noel]

It's sort of like all those different flavors of Kit Kats that you can only get in Japan.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, I have a bag of those at my desk.

[Noel]

I really like the Green tea ones.

[Ben Bolan]

Green tea is good. I get hip to banana. Also, Hawaii is, I think, per capita, the world's largest consumer of Spam.

[Noel]

Remember when we did an episode on Spam with Danny from Savor and we talked about how they have to keep it under lock and key because it's such a non perishable item that they can just flip it out of their trunks once they do a big Spam heist?

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, I used to have Spam in my go bag, but the weight ratio is. Anyway, anyway. State rivalries. Right? State rivalries. Today's episode is about a state rivalry. It is about the fair states of Ohio and Michigan, who nowadays, Noel, neither of us are big football fanatics.

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[Ben Bolan]

Football, yes. American football fanatics. Yeah. Neither of us are huge American football fanatics. Nowhere near as insane and rabid about it as Casey Pegram is. But even we know that Michigan and Ohio are famous for how much their college football teams hate each other.

[Noel]

I only knew it because it says it right here on this outline.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, that's how you and I know that.

[Noel]

That's right. But it's true. And who knows? I mean, perhaps the rivalry in question today has had a historical hold on the relationship between these two states and has, you know, I would say a football rivalry or a little healthy joshing around between, you know, rough and tumble footballers is a lot healthier and safer than what has been described as the. The Toledo War. A clash between Ohioans. And I'm gonna go with my favorite Michiganders. Cause in our research material, sometimes it says Michiganians and sometimes I see Michigan. Michiganders.

[Ben Bolan]

Michiganers. Michiganders.

[Noel]

Yeah.

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Right.

[Noel]

In any Michigan folk, let us know which ones you prefer. But this conflict took place in 1835. And it had to do with the fact that both Ohio, which was a state at the time, and Michigan, which was not yet a state at the time, both thought they owned this little strip of land. It's almost like a Gaza Strip kind of situation between two Warrington nations. Only in this case, it's, you know, there's states and a state and a not quite yet state. Yeah. And there's this little strip of land between them that each of them feel like they have a claim to.

[Ben Bolan]

Right, right. This was a long time in coming, and it's a. It's based on a series of misunderstandings. First off, I love the name Toledo War. It sounds like it's the name of an album. In 1787, the US Congress drafted what they called the Northwest Ordinance. And the Northwest ordinance said that 260,000 square miles of territory around the Great Lakes would be carved into a handful of states. The law also said that the border between Ohio and Michigan was to run on a east and west line drawn through the southerly bend or extreme of Lake Michigan until it intersected with Lake Erie.

[Noel]

However, they did a bad job.

[Ben Bolan]

They did a piss poor job because the problem is that the maps they had were wrong. Lake Michigan, southern tip, on one of the best maps at the time that they used, which was called the Mitchell map. You can look it up today. The Lake Michigan that was on the map was actually several miles north of where it is in the world or on the planet. And so Congress got it wrong and they didn't know.

[Noel]

Wait a minute, Congress did what?

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, I know, I know.

[Noel]

I thought they were infallible.

[Ben Bolan]

It was the one time Congress got it wrong. And they didn't know that they got it wrong until 1802, years and years later. And it was because of a fur trapper who said, hey guys, actually got the line wrong. This is gonna come back to bite you in the future. Listen to me, I'm a trapper, professionally. I'm telling you, you guys are trapping yourselves. And how did they react? Well, we know it wasn't resolved.

[Noel]

Well, first of all, I got to backtrack slightly. Let me ask you this. Did this fur trapper, you know, just. Just waltz in to Congress and announce these findings, say, hey, hey you guys, it's me, Raul the fur trapper, I got something to tell you. Or was he employed by them? Was he sent to, what's the word? Survey the land? Cuz surveyors come in a little later. Sorry if I'm getting caught up in semantics here. I just can't picture Raul the fur trapper just waltzing into Congress and saying, listen here, this is gonna be a real problem.

[Ben Bolan]

He did. I like the name Raul. And we don't have the exact name for this guy. Apparently delegates from the Ohio Constitutional Convention received reports from him. So he did not stroll into the halls of federal Congress.

[Noel]

I see. He had a correspondence going on with, in some form, their representative.

[Ben Bolan]

And he had a lot of stuff going on already, you know what I mean?

[Bethenny Frankel]

Sure.

[Ben Bolan]

He can't watch every falling sparrow or border dispute. But you said there was another important thing happening here, which is that these territories, these areas around the lakes, were not states. Ohio finally became a state in what, 1803?

[Noel]

That's right.

[Ben Bolan]

And so Ohio said when it became a state, it specified something about this border in its constitution. So the fur trapper says the line actually falls south of the Maumee river. And Ohio says we own the land around this no matter what future surveys show. And then the Michigan Territory is formed. And the government of the Michigan Territory says, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, Ohio, watch yourself, because that Mitchell map is wrong. We have newer, better maps and they show that this region is ours. This is Michigan Territory, so step off.

[Noel]

Seriously. So things only got worse because in the 1810s, they sent a pair of land surveyors. Well, actually, I guess one from each side. Yeah, yep, yep. One from each side. And of course, they came to different conclusions.

[Ben Bolan]

No way.

[Noel]

Yeah, yeah. About the location of where this border would be. And that's when this strip became a thing, this Gaza Strip esque area of land, a 468 square mile slice known as the Toledo Strip, that was officially being claimed. Very aggressively actually, as it would turn out by both Ohio and what was then called the Michigan Territory.

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[Ben Bolan]

So, okay, sure. Maps get things wrong. People are fallible. Can't they just sit down together and work it out? Well, they could if it were an arbitrary mistake. The problem is they both have skin in the game. They both have a horse in the race. They both want a badger in the bag here because they wanted to control this area that would later become Toledo and the river. You see, by 1825, the completion of the Erie Canal linked the Great Lakes

[Noel]

to the east coast on the Erie Cone. Now that one. Yeah, it's an old song, kind of like in the company store. We're trying to ground it in like, you know, lore.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. And folk songs.

[Noel]

Folk songs, exactly. No, this is very, very, very valuable position to hold in terms of trade, Right?

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, absolutely. You're absolutely right. So Toledo at this point is a growing village. It's the largest port on Lake Erie's western side, and that means it could be a financial windfall. So of course, both Michigan and Ohio want to tighten their grip on it. And just like the border disputes we see in more recent years, they try a number of things, right, to legitimize their claim, both in the eyes of the people living there and in terms of just pure infrastructure. So the Michigan territory, because still not a state yet, is constructing roads. It's sending people on purpose to live there, to sort of take over the land. It's holding election, it's collecting taxes really

[Noel]

putting the cart before the old horse there, isn't it?

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, like a boots on the ground, flexing that claim. Right. It is not an ethical way to gain territory. It is an unfortunately common way that human beings have done this in the past, in the modern day. Just say, like, let's. If we send enough of, quote unquote, our people to a place that we don't own and have them live there, eventually it's ours.

[Noel]

But this isn't the moon, you know, this isn't like a far removed location. This isn't a colony that is completely disconnected from day to day life. This is a very small strip of land right between these two places where presumably human beings live. And it became very evident that both sides wanted to protect their claim physically, if necessary.

[Ben Bolan]

Right, right. And Ohio tries a different strategy. They're doing some of the same things the Michigan territory is, but Ohio's already a state, so they have a pretty, pretty significant advantage. They go to Washington, like that fur trapper who never made it.

[Noel]

Raul.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, Raul. So they go to the halls of federal and they say, look, a deal is a deal is a deal. When we became a state, we put this in our instruction manual or their constitution, rather.

[Noel]

You guys screwed up.

[Ben Bolan]

You guys screwed up. That's not on us. Toledo is and will always be a part of Ohio as God intended it. In fact, in the early 1830s, members of Congress from Ohio blocked a Michigan petition for statehood and tried to hold the Toledo strip, which they called it, a hostage. And they said, look, you can't be a state. They didn't say, give up Toledo. They said, unless you admit that Toledo is ours.

[Noel]

I mean, if we're being honest here, pretty scrappy of non state Michigan here. The way they're flexing on this claim, knowing that they themselves don't even have statehood yet and that they're poking the bear in more ways than one. Right?

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, exactly. In 1833, the US becomes divided on the issue, the entirety of Congress. So the Senate says, okay, we're team Ohio. We side with Ohio. But the House of Representatives says, well, we're not just gonna go along with you guys. And then people say, Stevens, Mason. That's his name. Stevens, not Steven.

[Noel]

We're getting into some other really amazing names in this story later. But yeah, Stevens, Mason.

[Ben Bolan]

Mason. Yeah, he's governor of the Michigan territory. Again, still not a state. And he says, hey, look, let's get a commission together to try to work this out.

[Noel]

I think it's so funny. Stevens, Mason. It should be flipped it should be Mason Stevens. Yeah, it's the last name, first name, first name, last name vibe.

[Ben Bolan]

Very. I like that he's more than one Stevens. I have a good friend whose name is Jamel. He's just like one James.

[Noel]

Well, that was the name of Buffalo Bill in the Silence of the Lambs movie. His name was Jame Gumm. Isn't that right, Casey?

[Ben Bolan]

Goodbye, horses.

[Noel]

That's right.

[Ben Bolan]

Oh, I thought it was James.

[Noel]

No, it was Jame.

[Ben Bolan]

Oh, weird. I just rewatched the chase scene from that.

[Noel]

I just rewatched the. The mirror scene. The mirror scene. Casey on the case.

[Ben Bolan]

Not the mirror scene.

[Noel]

Of course the mirror scene. That's the most iconic moment from that movie. It's the one part everyone remembers. Goodbye, horses. And the mirror scene.

[Ben Bolan]

No, I remember the lotion on the skin part.

[Noel]

That's also a good one.

[Ben Bolan]

Did you know Anthony Hopkins is only in that movie, like, 14 or 15 minutes?

[Noel]

Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

[Kal Penn]

He's.

[Noel]

Yeah, he's a. He's a. I mean, but it's. It's a very powerful 14 or 15 minutes.

[Ben Bolan]

It's true. Speaking of powerful, powerful 14 or 15 minutes. We have to wonder how long Governor Robert Lucas of Ohio took to evaluate Mason's appeal. Not that long. He pretty much instantly refused it. He said, we do not negotiate. And then he said, Furthermore, in 1835, this is when everything started to go really off the rails. He said, we're gonna form our own county on the Toledo Strip. So now, don't call it the Toledo Strip. Now it's Lucas County, Ohio.

[Noel]

Yeah. And then Michigan flexes back against Ohio, against Lucas, and enacts this series of laws called the Pains and Penalties Act. And that's in February of 1835. A law that said anyone found hanging out in said strip that supported Ohio could be sent to jail for up to five years and fined a grand, which at the time would have been equivalent to about $25,000. So Mason gets 1,000 men, a militia, and stations them right inside of this area. And then Lucas, you know, maybe having access to fewer men or thinking that it wasn't that big a deal. Cause they, you know, were big old state boys, sent 600 men just to make sure that there wasn't some sort of, like, out and out bloodbath.

[Ben Bolan]

This is looking bad.

[Noel]

Really is.

[Ben Bolan]

Oh, also, we should mention the governor of the not quite a state, Michigan territory, Stevens, Mason. He is 23 years old.

[Noel]

Don't they call him the boy king or something like that?

[Ben Bolan]

The golden boy governor.

[Noel]

The boy governor.

[Boost Mobile Announcer]

Okay.

[Noel]

Yeah.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. So now we have military forces moving in and this weird hearts and minds law supporting the state of Ohio. What does that mean? That can mean anything from being an official of the county they proposed Lucas county to saying, hey, I live in Toledo and I'm in Ohio.

[Noel]

And it also, it's got that very kind of like, gestapo y kind of idea of like, what if you're just caught palling around with somebody from the other side? You know, what if someone names names and you're one of the names what gets named? Next thing you know, you're sitting in the clink for five years and you're,

[Ben Bolan]

you know, a thousand dollars in debt, which will be incredibly difficult to pay off. So the federal government tries to get these people to get along, despite the fact there are already active militias in the area. So on April 9, 1835, a posse led by a sheriff from Michigan rode into Toledo and they did just what they were talking about. They arrested several state officials from Ohio. And the newspapers, who you imagine have to have loved the headline potential here. Newspapers said that an Ohio flag was torn down, dragged through the streets and burned. People are PO'd.

[Noel]

Really a lawless zone here, you know, because no one knows who's in charge. So everyone's kind of in charge. Or it's kind of. I mean, it really is like a Wild west kind of situation, but just in this little strip. So it escalates, my friend, and involves another sheriff from Michigan, this time a man named Joseph Wood, who attempts to enforce this pain and penalties act by arresting Major Benjamin Stickney. Loving that name because he voted in an Ohio election. And this is fantastic.

[Ben Bolan]

Here are the names. This is the names.

[Boost Mobile Announcer]

Oh, boy.

[Noel]

Stickney's sons who are named 1, Stickney and 2. Stickney.

[Ben Bolan]

Like the numbers O, N, E, T, W, O. Yeah.

[Noel]

They join in with their pops, Stickney Sr. And they resist being arrested. And they stab Sheriff Wood with a pocket knife.

[Ben Bolan]

But not fatally.

[Noel]

No, it's.

[Bethenny Frankel]

It's a.

[Noel]

It's a. But a flesh wound, really, Right.

[Ben Bolan]

Is only a scratch. Tis but a scratch. Funny story. I've got a. I had a great aunt whose name was Nine.

[Noel]

Really? That's pretty cool. I. I like the idea of numbers for names.

[Ben Bolan]

Me too. I met. I met a dude named Seven and he was so cool. He was not related to me. I only have one number name in my family.

[Noel]

I like the name Four.

[Ben Bolan]

You like the name Four?

[Audiobook Narrator]

I don't know.

[Ben Bolan]

What about Six?

[Noel]

Wasn't Six a character on Blossom?

[Ben Bolan]

There's Six Smith in Cloud Atlas.

[Noel]

Okay, I haven't seen that.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, I don't know. I'm partial. For some reason, I'm partial to odd numbers for names. This has nothing to do with Michigan and Ohio's Toledo War. What do you think is a great number for a name?

[Noel]

There was a character named six on Blossom. Her name was six Lemure, played by. Whoa. Jenna Von Oy. Another great name.

[Ben Bolan]

These are great names. Yeah, I would go with a nine or maybe a three. Yeah, I would go with a name. Three. Casey, do you have a number that you think would make a good name?

[Noel]

27.

[Ben Bolan]

I knew you were gonna. Okay. Casey on the case. He's thought about it, folks. He's thought about this a lot.

[Bethenny Frankel]

This is Bethenny Frankel from Just Be with Bethenny Frankel. Most dog food is marketing, not nutrition. That is why Biggie and Smalls eat just food for dogs. Real 100 human grade food with ingredients I actually recognize. And yes, I do see the difference. Better digestion, healthier skin, more energy. Dogs that feel better. My babies, if you've been on the fence about switching, stop overthinking it. What's more important than your furry babies and their health? Go to justfoodfordogs.com right now and get 50% off your first box. No code needed. Just try it.

[Kal Penn]

Hey, everyone, it's Cal Penn, the host of Earsay, the Audible and iHeart audiobook. This week I'm sitting down with author Matt Dinnaman and narrator Jeff Aies to talk about dungeon crawler Carl. Matt had one line in a notebook from middle school alien game show. It took him until 2019 to finally write it, but what came out was an out of this world audiobook phenomenon. We talked about that origin. A talking cat with a charisma stat that breaks the game and what what it takes to voice an entire world.

[Audiobook Narrator]

Fiction is bull, so you gotta trick me into caring about what you're talking about. And that's always what I have thought of as my job. So as a narrator, I always want

[Ben Bolan]

to keep you engaged by making you

[Audiobook Narrator]

feel as if I care as a narrator. And when I do dialogue, I don't want to tell you what the characters are saying. I want you to hear firsthand.

[Kal Penn]

Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Orderly Meds Announcer]

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He's dribbling the ball with everything on the line. He's driving down the pitch. He's facing price hikes and cuts past him Carrier contracts, tries to block. Oh, he leaves him in the dust. He's at the edge of the box. He cuts past the non stop group chat trash talk. He clears on goal. He shoots no unlimited data for $25 a month forever.

Visit your local Boost Mobile store today to get unlimited data with a price that never changes. Boost mobile after 30gb, customers may experience lower speeds. Customers will pay $25 a month as long as they remain active on the Boost $25 Unlimited plan.

[Ben Bolan]

So this is the first violent physical altercation when the Michigan Sheriff Joseph Wood and Benjamin Stickney and co. Get beefed up. And now Sheriff Wood is remembered as the one injury casualty in the Toledo war. So the Ohio governor Lucas announced his intentions to hold a court session in Toledo. So they were gonna hold a session in a court of law.

[Noel]

Like I said, like a hearing kind of, right?

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, kind of like a kangaroo court. It's not like he's gonna have a stunning plot twist.

[Noel]

Kangaroo courts just seem so cute and fun to me. I know the idea, but they're not at all. No, they're very railroady and sort of a mockery of justice. Right?

[Ben Bolan]

Right. Do you know where that comes from? A lot of people think it comes from Australia, predictably.

[Noel]

Only because the only. I mean, not just to stereotype. Because of kangaroos. I would have thought it maybe came from the fact that it was a penal colony. And maybe it was the idea of giving someone not a fair trial and throwing them onto a penal colony. Is that not true?

[Ben Bolan]

It's not true. Which is weird because it's something I believe for Years, too. The first published instance of the term kangaroo court comes from 1853, rather. And. And it may have been popularized during the California Gold Rush because a lot of Australians went to the California Gold Rush, and then they would have accusations of claim jumping. So. Claim jumping and hastily proceeding through the legal system, perhaps by leaps and bounds, like a kangaroo.

[Noel]

That's right. I'm like, yeah, they both leap and bound.

[Ben Bolan]

Right. So they would jump over or ignore evidence that would be in favor of the defendant, but people don't really know. That's just another theory. I think the most widely believed one is the penal colony, but apparently that's. The timing doesn't work out, Ben.

[Noel]

I just went down a bit of a mini Internet rabbit hole when I was looking into the origins of kangaroo courts, and I discovered that in Germany, the Third Reich would hold their versions of kangaroo courts. And you know what they were called, Ben?

[Ben Bolan]

What were they called, Noel?

[Noel]

They were called the People's Court, but not with Judge Wapner.

[Ben Bolan]

I think I've seen that show. Yeah. You know what show I miss as well? I listened to the intro theme song for it all the time. Night Court. I'll probably never actually watch Night Court. It probably hasn't aged well since Dan Fielding is pretty much a sexual predator.

[Noel]

Ooh, I didn't know that.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, but that intro music is so great. I wish we could play it anyhow. So he has this kind of fake court set up to supposedly legitimize Ohio's claim.

[Noel]

This is the governor.

[Ben Bolan]

This is the Governor Lucas of Ohio and the boy Governor Stevens, Masons hears about this, and he marches 1,200 militiamen called Wolverines onto the Toledo strip. And they are prepared, the Michiganders, to use violent force to stop this court session from taking place. They get there on September 7th of 18, 33, 35. And then they find out they have been outsmarted.

[Noel]

It's true, because the Ohioans had already done these court proceedings in secret at the witching hour. It was a midnight court session, and then just booked it out of there because they didn't want to get slaughtered.

[Boost Mobile Announcer]

Right?

[Ben Bolan]

Right. So according to history.com the court incident marked the last gasp of armed hostilities in the Toledo War. Uncle Sam's representatives say, hey, Ohio, Michigan, why don't you guys jointly govern the territory until Congress can make a permanent decision on the issue? Ohio says, all right, cool, dope. Let's do that. But at the same time, while they said that was okay, they authorized $300,000 to the Ohio militia to seize the territory. If Michigan said no, and Michigan said no. So the Ohio militia moved to the south bank of the river and faced off with Michigan's military on the north side. And then the president had had enough. Andrew Jackson, president at the time, said, this is bonkers. This is bananas. This is malarkey. I am removing firing the boy governor.

[Noel]

Ooh, how do you do that? That's a bit of a legal reach, isn't it? Just to say, I unequivocally, as the president, remove you from your duly elected office, didn't seem like that would go over very well. And then I'm gonna install my guy, right?

[Ben Bolan]

That's right. It does seem like an overreach of power, you know, but that's what happened. And Mason was replaced by a fellow named John Horner. John Horner, I don't know if we would say completely mended the fences, but he worked with the Ohio governor to reach a okay conclusion to the dispute. And Ohio was happy. The people of Michigan were not. They hated this guy. They despised him. They would see him in the street and verbally abuse him. They hanged effigies of him on multiple occasions. And they immediately voted Stevens Mason, the boy governor, back into office. So this debate raged on, and a lot of it focused on Michigan's ongoing plea to be made a state. And that was really the deciding factor here, because on December 14, 1836, Michigan did eventually accept a congressional compromise. And they said, okay, we will give up the Toledo strip if we are admitted to the Union as the 26th state. And with that, Toledo became part of the state of Ohio. Michigan didn't just give that up for statehood. They also got some land right in the Upper Peninsula.

[Noel]

Yeah, it's between Lake Michigan and Lake Superior. The thing is, though, the Michiganers weren't super thrilled about this. They thought it was kind of a raw deal because the Detroit Free Press at the time had categorized this upper peninsular area as a barren wasteland of perpetual snows. But, you know, as history has a tendency to do, kind of soften things a little bit when they discovered some precious mineable materials in the form of copper and iron ore. So it turned out to be not. Not a bad. Not a bad trade, not a complete

[Ben Bolan]

wash. And there we have it, folks. The Toledo War nowadays is remembered as the most ferocious conflict in Ohio, Michigan history. Even worse than the college football rivalries. But this was not the last time the states clashed over their borders. These folks have legitimate boundary issues. The precise location of their land boundary was still a constant subject of contention argument until 1915, they had to have a new government survey. And the governor celebrated the resolution by shaking hands across the the border. See? And in 1965, the lieutenant governors repeated the ceremony.

[Noel]

That's nice. Sort of like a mini Hands Across America thing. Hey. And here we'll come full circle. You know, there were occasional legal battles between the states up until 1973, when a Supreme Court ruling resolved any claims to the waters of Lake Erie. Now, those tensions, those historical tensions are pretty much dealt with in those college football rivalries we talked about at the top of the show.

[Ben Bolan]

The Toledo War. There you have it. So this ends today's episode, but not our show. We would love to hear some of your favorite stories of state rivalries in the U.S. or, you know, country rivalries, county, province rivalries anywhere throughout the world. Because as we know, at least here in the states, it's a huge ongoing issue. And every state has at least one other state that they despise for one reason or another. You can let us know on our email. We are [e-mail] you can find us on Instagram and you can find us, and most importantly, your fellow listeners on our Facebook page, Ridiculous historians.

[Kal Penn]

Yeah.

[Noel]

And you can check us out individually on Instagram if you like. Follow our various exploits. I am Brionic Insider.

[Ben Bolan]

I am Benbolan with a lot of stuff on there that's probably gonna ruin my political ambitions later in life.

[Noel]

Oh, surely not, Ben. Surely not. You're just a full human person with very rich life experiences.

[Ben Bolan]

That's very kind. I, like many people, do try to emulate Casey Pegram. Oh, speaking of that guy. Hey, Casey, thanks so much for, as always, saving the show. We'd also like to thank thank Gabe, our research associate.

[Noel]

I would like to thank Alex Williams, who composed our theme, Christopher Haotes, who is here in spirit, and Jonathan Strickland, the quister, and as usual, Ben Bolan. Thanks to you for being a friend and all the other lyrics to the Golden Girl theme that I will never, never remember.

[Ben Bolan]

Why don't you ever remember? It's a great song.

[Noel]

You said it wasn't that great a song in its form.

[Ben Bolan]

No, the full song is not great. But the TV version just for the intro is spot on.

[Noel]

It's pretty heartwarming, especially when paired with the the clips of these women and their antics. It really does warm the cockles.

[Ben Bolan]

And I'm gonna say this, even though it's late and we probably should have said it earlier, you know, it's here in The US Mother's Day happened this weekend. And I just want to say thanks to all the moms listening. Yes, thanks to everyone with a mom. And you know, if you didn't get a chance, you didn't get a chance to call her. And so this is maybe a week, a week late now that you're hearing this, but if you didn't get a chance to say hello, just, just give her a ring, drop by and see her. We both hung out. Well, all three of us hung out with our moms recently and had a heck of a time. Noel. My mom even almost came to my improv show, which was a weird flex.

[Noel]

Ben, I would have come to your improv show as well if I wasn't already entertaining my mom and daughter. You know, and my daughter's 10. I don't think the improv stuff you guys would have done would have been quite age appropriate. But very soon, when she's, I'm gonna say 13, when she can go to

[Ben Bolan]

her first improv show. Okay, all of us listening now who have ever done improv know that it can be, it can be tiresome to continually invite your friends to improv. So never feel, you know, we improvise enough together on the show. Noel. Never feel obligated or anything other than invited to that kind of, that kind of outside of work shtick. You know what I mean?

[Noel]

I do indeed. We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Boost Mobile Announcer]

He's dribbling the ball with everything on the line. He's driving down the pitch. He's facing price hikes and cuts past him. Carrier contracts, tries to block him. Oh, he leaves him in the dust. He's at the edge of the box. He cuts past the nonstop group chat, trash talk. He clears on goal. He shoots no unlimited data for $25 a month. Forever.

Visit your local Boost Mobile store today to get unlimited data with a price that never changes. Boost mobile after 30gb, customers may experience lower speeds. Customers will pay $25 a month as long as they remain active on the Boost $25 unlimited plan.

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[Kal Penn]

Your bill, ladies.

[Orderly Meds Announcer]

I got it.

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[Bethenny Frankel]

I assisted first.

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[Noel]

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[Ray Porter]

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[Bethenny Frankel]

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[Noel]

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