CLASSIC: The Forty Elephants: London’s All-Female Jewel Thieves

Summary

Ridiculous History — CLASSIC: The Forty Elephants: London’s All-Female Jewel Thieves

October 4, 2025 | Hosted by Ben Bowlin & Noel Brown

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Episode Overview

In this "classic" episode, Ben and Noel unearth the story of the Forty Elephants, a formidable and long-lasting all-female criminal syndicate from London. Known for their cunning, longevity, and sheer audacity, this gang outwitted society, the law, and even contemporary gender stereotypes to thrive in jewel theft and organized crime for over two centuries. The hosts provide context, colorful anecdotes, and a spirited discussion of the methods, key personalities, and legacy of this remarkable crew.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Allure and Reality of Heist Culture (03:00–04:50)

• Ben and Noel open by riffing on heist fantasies, with playful banter about their own imagined criminal roles—the "bag man," the "inside man," the "shady government liaison," and the essential "hacker."
  • Quote [04:24]: “They usually refer to me, Ben Bolin, in my past heist, as either the inside man or the shady government liaison.” — Ben

2. Introduction to the Forty Elephants (06:10–07:30)

• The gang, also called the Forty Thieves, operated out of London’s Elephant and Castle area, with a lineage stretching, almost unbelievably, back some 200 years.
  • Quote [07:14]: "No. 200 years. And this gang was made entirely of female criminals operating out of the Elephant and Castle area of London, which I find to be a magnificently whimsical name for an area.” — Ben

3. Gang Structure and Methods (08:26–13:03)

• The Forty Elephants were highly organized, running in cells with a militaristic discipline and always ruled by a “queen.”
• They collaborated with the predominantly male Elephant and Castle Mob for muscle, but developed their own uniquely clever criminal methods, including:
  • Masquerading as housemaids for wealthy families,
  • Employing elaborate disguise work with false references,
  • Overwhelming shops with their numbers to shoplift en masse.
  • Maintaining reserve funds to bail out arrested members and greasing local authorities.
  • Diverse criminal activity, including blackmailing wealthy men.
  • Quote [13:03]: “Kind of a hydra organization. Cut off one head and two will rise in its place.” — Ben

4. The Power of Social Norms & Gender (14:22–15:53)

• The gang exploited the era’s misogynistic perceptions: women—particularly well-dressed ones—weren’t typically suspected of serious crime.
  • Quote [14:52]: “You want to respect their privacy. You don't want to be forward in this very repressed age. So there were some upsides here…” — Ben

5. Control of Territory & Policing Crime (15:29–17:22)

• The Forty Elephants enforced strict control over their territory, demanding a cut from crimes by others in their patch (like a “mob tax”), and using the Elephant and Castle Mob to collect debts or mete out punishment.
• They were adept at both violence and cunning; Diamond Annie, their leader, wore fists full of diamond rings as weapons.
  • Quote [16:01]: “Diamond Annie, for example, got her name because she had a fistful of diamond rings that if she clocked you in the face with, you'd probably lose an eye…” — Noel

6. Organizational Sophistication & Longevity (17:22–20:00)

• The organization supported its members through fines, bail money, and caring for dependents—contributing to its extraordinary persistence over generations.

7. Disguising and Offloading Stolen Goods (23:03–24:45)

• The group relied on networks of fences, market traders, and pawnshops.
• High-value clothes would be resold with new labels in department stores, making it harder to track stolen goods.

8. Alice “Diamond Annie” Diamond – The Legendary Leader (24:45–28:08)

• Alice Diamond (also known as Annie) became Queen in 1915; her leadership marked the gang’s most notorious period.
• She was born in poverty, daughter of a violent father with a criminal past; her toughness and strategic mind solidified her influence.
  • Quote [25:10]: “Diamond was her real name. It wasn’t just a cool moniker.” — Ben

9. The Lifestyle & Public Perception (28:08–30:46)

• The gang led a glamorous, extravagant public life—partying at pubs and clubs, inspired by flapper-era celebrities, but always facing the hard edge of risk.

10. The Downfall: Betrayal, Violence, and the End (36:23–42:59)

• Internal betrayal triggered their decline. When member Marie Britton fell for an outsider, she violated a gang rule and, fearing retribution, brought her father to a tense meeting with Annie and Babyface Maggie.
• Violence broke out; Maggie slashed at Britton’s father with a razor. The resultant melee drew police attention.
• Key arrests (especially of Alice Diamond and Maggie) left a power vacuum. By the 1930s–1950s, the gang’s influence had waned, becoming mere shoplifters.
  • Quote [37:28]: “Marie had fallen in love with someone outside of London’s underworld… she was called up to see Alice and Babyface Maggie, and Marie was scared.” — Ben
  • Quote [39:11]: “…the ringleader of the 40 Elephants, Alice Diamonds. Diamond Alice. Annie Diamonds. Diamond Annie was arrested.” — Noel

11. Legacy, Modern Crime & Gendered Criminality (43:26–44:54)

• The hosts contrast contemporary gang activity — mostly devoid of the Forty Elephants’ organization — and muse on how London crime still favors non-gun methods compared to other countries.

12. Final Reflections and Listener Engagement (44:54–47:14)

• The hosts fantasize about a BBC TV series à la Peaky Blinders based on the Forty Elephants and invite ideas for casting.
• Quote [46:57]: “You know who I could picture as being Babyface Maggie? Melissa McCarthy.” — Noel

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• [13:03] Ben: “Kind of a hydra organization. Cut off one head and two will rise in its place.”
• [14:52] Ben: “You want to respect their privacy…there were some upsides here.”
• [16:01] Noel: “Diamond Annie…if she clocked you in the face…you'd probably lose an eye.”
• [24:24] Ben: “Diamond was her real name. It wasn’t just a cool moniker.”
• [28:05] Noel: “Or possibly crushed under the thumb of some man.”
• [37:28] Ben: “She was called up to see Alice and Baby Face Maggie, and Marie was scared.”
• [46:57] Noel: “You know who I could picture as being Babyface Maggie? Melissa McCarthy.”
• [44:31] Ben: “Unless you want to say the banking cartels are gangs, but they rob people in a different way.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:00–04:50 — Heist banter and roles
• 06:10–07:30 — Who were the Forty Elephants?
• 08:26–13:03 — Structure, methods, alliances with men’s gangs
• 14:22–15:53 — Exploiting gender roles, territory
• 17:22–20:00 — Gang support, generational knowledge
• 23:03–24:45 — Fencing stolen goods
• 24:45–28:08 — Alice Diamond’s backstory
• 28:08–30:46 — Lifestyle and the hard realities
• 36:23–42:59 — The beginning of the end: Marie Britton incident, Annie’s downfall
• 43:26–44:54 — Modern gang legacy
• 44:54–47:14 — TV adaptation speculation, listener engagement

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Overall Tone & Style

Ben and Noel maintain a playful, irreverent, and conspiratorial style throughout the episode, mixing historical research with comic asides, pop culture references, and speculative tangents. Their rapport is friendly, sometimes silly, but always respectful and enthusiastic about the peculiar histories they uncover.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

If you've never heard of the Forty Elephants, this episode delivers a fascinating portrait of one of history's most successful and least remembered criminal organizations—100% led by women, masters of disguise and organization, thriving despite class, gender, and police scrutiny, all while living loudly and glamorously. Their tale is a reminder of the ingenuity, audacity, and adaptability of groups history often overlooks.

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Additional Resources Mentioned

• Books by Brian MacDonald, including Gangs of London and Alice Diamond and the Forty Elephants
• The Guardian article by Amelia Hill: “Girl Gang's Grip on Underworld Revealed”
• TED Talk by Steven Levitt on drug dealing economics
• TV series Peaky Blinders (comparison)
• Brian K. Vaughan’s comics Saga and Y: The Last Man

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Engagement

How would you cast a modern TV series on the Forty Elephants? Who’d play Diamond Annie or Babyface Maggie? Find the hosts and other “Ridiculous Historians” online to share your choices or nominate another overlooked criminal dynasty.

Transcript

[Ben]

You know how you sit around some days and you're thinking, I should be a jewel thief, but I can't be a jewel thief on my own. I need to.

[Noel]

Well, yeah, Ben, you know, I think about that all the time when I'm sitting around.

[Ben]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Noel]

As long as I can be the bag man. That's all I'm saying.

[Ben]

We've got a weird group chat, for sure. This classic episode is from 2018, where we got super into one of the coolest crime stories out there in London.

[Noel]

And the coolest crime crews out there in London that would not have had us as members because they were no boys. Loud.

[Ben]

Right? The 40 elephants, all female jewel thieves.

[Noel]

Let's jump right into it.

[Ben]

This is an iHeart podcast. There's a vile sickness in Abba's town. You must excise it. Dig into the deep earth and cut it out. From iheart Podcasts and Grim and Mild from Aaron Manke. This is Havoc Town, a new fiction podcast set in the Bridgewater Audio universe, starring Jewel State and Ray Wise. Listen to Havoc town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Noel]

Sacred Scandal is back, the hit true crime podcast that uncovers hidden truths and shattered faith. For 19 years, Alena Sada was a nun for the Legion of Christ. This season, she's telling her story. When I first joined the Legion of Christ, I felt chosen. I was 19 years old when Marcia Almasel, the leader of the Legionaries, looked me in the eye and told me I had a calling. Surviving meant hiding. Escaping took courage. Risking everything to tell her truth. Listen to Sacred Scandal, the many secrets of Martial Maciel on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Malcolm Gladwell here. This season on Revisionist History, we're going back to the spring of 1988 to a town in northwest Alabama where a man committed a crime that would spiral out of control.

[Ben]

And he said, I've been in prison 24, 25 years. That's probably not long enough. But I didn't kill him.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

From Revisionist History, this is the Alabama Murders. Listen to revisionist history the Alabama murders on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben]

Hear insightful, entertaining discussions on today's important.

[Noel]

Health and wellness topics on the Health discovered podcast from WebMD.

[Ben]

Through in depth conversations with experts, Health.

[Noel]

Discovered covers everything from tips for healthier living to the latest on therapy and mental health.

[Ben]

My goal is to really destigmatize mental health Treatment and looking at it from a whole health perspective. Physical health and mental health can be intertwined.

[Noel]

Listen to WebMD Health discovered on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio Foreign. Welcome to the show Ridiculous Historians. Let's start today's episode off with a question, a favorite topic of conversation for those of us here at howstuff Works when we're just hanging out off the air. Have you ever wanted to perpetrate a heist like Ocean's Eleven style? And if so, did you ever envision yourself having a specialty? You know how all the heist teams always have that they're specialists, right?

[Noel]

Well, I've always wanted to be the bag man.

[Ben]

The bag man.

[Noel]

I want to be the bag man.

[Ben]

Yeah, yeah.

[Noel]

What does that entail? It's the coolest title.

[Ben]

Yeah, it's up there. The Bagman, generally. And someone write in and correct us if I'm off base here, but the bagman generally is a term describing the person who actually, when you're physically stealing currency or jewelry or precious metals, the person who physically holds the bag.

[Noel]

You see, I'm known for my grip.

[Ben]

Is that true?

[Noel]

Oh, yeah.

[Ben]

Oh, yeah.

[Noel]

They say Noel Brown, that kid's got a good grip.

[Ben]

They usually refer to me, Ben Bolan, in my past heist as either the inside man or the shady government liaison.

[Noel]

I would have called you the Brain.

[Ben]

That's very kind. That's very kind, Noel. And I guess by virtue of his position on the show, our super producer, Casey Pegram would probably be. And I don't want to pigeonhole you here. Casey, our computer expert. You gotta have a hacker.

[Noel]

Yeah. You know, it's actually funny. There was a character in one of the Grand Theft Auto games that reminded me a lot of Casey. And Casey, if you take this as an insult and you know the character I'm talking about, please don't, because I'm more talking about his very intelligent demeanor, not his look. He was a little bit of an odd looking fellow, but he's the guy that ran the warehouse where they planned all the heists. And they had the big chalkboard and they, you know, drew the maps and they had the big table. Remember that guy?

[Ben]

Yeah, yeah. As long as you're not Trevor Phillips. Casey. Grove street forever.

[Noel]

Man, oh man. Is he like the meth. Meth head guy?

[Ben]

Yeah, Trevor. Trevor Phillips is the unhinged meth head guy.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah.

[Noel]

He lived kind of out in the Salton Sea type area of what's the name of the fake la. San Andreas.

[Ben]

Yeah, I want to say there's definitely a San Andreas. It's got to be San Andreas.

[Noel]

I have a segue. It's actually going to work here, Ben.

[Ben]

All right, go for it.

[Noel]

We're talking about video games. You ever heard of the Assassin's Creed video games?

[Ben]

Yes, I've played them all, actually.

[Noel]

Is there. Is this one out yet? I just saw this video. It's called like Assassin's Creed, something Legacy or something. But it's about. Or maybe it's about London gangs.

[Ben]

Oh, yeah, I don't know if that one's out yet.

[Noel]

Okay, then I saw a preview of this game and it's about London gangs. And in this game, the topic of today's episode was paid homage to.

[Ben]

Oh, wonderful. They talked about the 40 thieves, the farty Thieves, the Farty Elephant Gang.

[Noel]

Yeah, yeah. Remember the gangs of New York? Wasn't there a gang called the Farty Thieves?

[Ben]

An Irish gang.

[Noel]

An Irish gang, yeah, yeah.

[Ben]

And just to be clear, we're saying 40 with an Irish accent, not the Flatulent Elephants or the Flatulent Thieves. Yeah. That's awesome. I want to check that game out. I mean, have you played Assassin's Creed before?

[Noel]

I have not.

[Ben]

Oh, it's funny. It can be repetitive at times. It's a mixture of some really cool fighting and then some, at times incredibly frustrating jump around, solve the puzzle sequences.

[Noel]

Isn't there a lot of like stalk, kind of like from a distance, keep your distance, and then move in for the kill kind of stuff?

[Ben]

But I mean, who hasn't done that totally just in regular life?

[Noel]

Oh, yeah.

[Ben]

So. So there was a real life gang of thieves, jewel thieves specifically, that were known for their successful, very well planned out heist. They were active for more than 200 years.

[Noel]

See, I thought that was a typo when I first saw that.

[Ben]

I was just.

[Noel]

Surely someone added an extra zero, right?

[Ben]

No. 200 years. And this gang was made entirely of female criminals operating out of the Elephant and Castle area of London, which I.

[Noel]

Find to be a magnificently whimsical name for an area.

[Ben]

London. And you know, the UK in general, they. They have, they're very. They have wonderful names for places and streets and neighborhoods. But I gotta say, I'm not a fan of British names for food, probably just because I didn't grow up there. But like barley water, spotted dick, bubble and squeak. Bubble and squeak. Bubble and squeak. Isn't even that egregious?

[Noel]

Sounds like fun, whatever it is.

[Ben]

But barley water, that just that sounds like a punishment.

[Noel]

That's beer, right?

[Ben]

I don't think it is, Norm. Really. I think it's. It sounds like it would be a good euphemism for beer. But barley water is a. It's just boiled grain in water that hasn't, you know, it still doesn't have alcohol.

[Noel]

Well, it seems like if there's no alcohol, why would you bother.

[Ben]

Right? Why would you bother consuming barley? So when, when did the 40 Thieves really. When were. What were their glory days, Noel?

[Noel]

We talked about that. They were also called the 40 elephants.

[Ben]

Yes.

[Noel]

Yeah, so that's, that's what I'm going to refer to them as because they lived in this Elephant and Castle district. They were also. They were self contained and they were an all female band of heisters. I don't know what you want to call it criminals. But they were backed up by another gang of kind of really rough and tumble dudes who were the Elephant and Castle Gang, who kind of like were almost like their muscle. But yeah. So they were active possibly as early as the 1700s, based on police records. And a lot of this comes from a book called the Gangs of London by a guy named Brian MacDonald. And he says that the 40 Elephant gang was probably the most active between the 1870s and the 1950s. But again, go back as far as possibly the 1700s.

[Ben]

Right. It may have been operating without being recognized. Brian, also, Brian MacDonald also has a book specifically about the 40 elephants and one of their most notable leaders, who we'll get to in a moment, but the book is called Alice diamond and the 40 elephants. I appreciate that you mentioned the Elephant and Castle Mob. They were, in a way, the muscle. They were headed by these guys called the McDonald brothers. And while they were allied together, they differed widely in their methods. So the Elephant Castle Mob, they were more kind of bruisers. But the 40 thieves or the 40 elephants were much more calculated in their crime. They would play the long game at times they would masquerade as housemaids for wealthy families or they would use false references and back up the references as well. And during the early 20th century, they were led by someone called Alice diamond, known variously as the Queen of the 40 Thieves or as Diamond Danny.

[Noel]

That's the thing, Ben. They were a very, very militaristically run organization from their inception. They operated in a series of like, cells, almost like a terrorist group. And they always were led by a queen. This Annie diamond was just kind of the most notorious and influential one.

[Ben]

Yeah, that's correct. There were many cause Again, this gang was active for around 200 years, far surpassing the lifespan of the average person at the time.

[Noel]

And.

[Ben]

And in their heyday. It's strange because they were romanticized a bit by papers of the time. In one paper, they were referred to as Amazons, who were handsome women, about 6ft tall. We can walk through maybe some of their methods because I know we made them sound like they only did disguise work, but that was just one of their many strategies for bilking people out of jewelry and valuables. They did a shoplifting method that is actually still common and in practice in parts of the world today, which is overpowering a store through the sheer volume of people participating. All of the gang members would rush into a store from various entrances, and then, since there were too many people to apprehend, they would just grab everything they can and then they would flee out of the store, heading into multiple directions, knowing that not all of them could be caught.

[Noel]

Not only that, they had, like, reserve funds for when they had to bail out the one or two stragglers that did get caught. And they basically were considered, like, untouchable because they had deals running with the police. And this is a very corrupt period in English history. You have to remember, this is like on the tail end of the Industrial Revolution. Things were changing really, really quickly, and it was kind of like just a free for all. As far as these street gangs of. There were many, and I just wanted to rattle off a few other ones. And this part of the country is huge. You've got gangs like the Scuttlers, the High Rip Gang, the Peaky Blinders. In Birmingham, you've got the Cockroad Gang and other such amazingly absurd and beautiful names. But the 40 elephants had an incredible reputation for being ruthless and being cunning and being, like I said before, practically untouchable because of the way they ran their operation in these cells. And like you're saying, Ben, the way they were able to kind of scatter, you know.

[Ben]

Yeah, kind of a hydra organization. Cut off one head and two will rise in its place. I don't think we mentioned that Diamond Annie was ruling during the interwar period. So she's around 1910 or the late 1910s. So World War I has already started. She and her lieutenant, Baby Faced Maggie, which. I love these nicknames. Everybody's got a great nickname. They're the ones who reputedly had the idea of partnering with the Elephant and Castle Mob to make sure that they had enforcers. There's an excellent article about this gang written by Amelia Hill for the Guardian called Girl Gang's Grip on Underworld Revealed. And it dives into some of the work of Brian MacDonald. But it also gives us a good context for the time in which this gang existed or this glory day era, because they were taking advantage of the misogynistic, chauvinistic attitudes of the time. You know, people thought, oh, a woman couldn't possibly be a criminal if she's dressed well.

[Noel]

Yeah, and I heard this somewhere, Ben, and let me know if you did, or if you think this is completely bogus. But I heard that they sort of had an advantage because women weren't allowed to do very much on their own in this time. But one thing they were allowed to do was shop on their own. And it may have even been that they were not paid as close attention to because of the fact, like you're saying, that they're wearing nice clothes and that they're on their own unaccompanied, without a chaperone.

[Ben]

You want to respect their privacy. You don't want to be forward in this very repressed age. So there were some upsides here, which we can explore later, but there are some other organizational things that they were very talented at. They had their own territory, like most gangs do, but they demanded a percentage of all crimes committed in their territory. So if there's another gang, we'll make up a gang. Let's say the Devin Ryan Sandwich Gang steals something. It doesn't matter what they steal, and.

[Noel]

They get wind of it.

[Ben]

They steal hats. Yeah. And then the 40 thieves or the 40 elephants find out about it. They will demand a percentage of from that haberdasher's robbery because it happened on their turf. And then if someone refused to pay up, got a bit too big for their britches or perhaps their trousers, then the gang would send their Elephant and Castle mob.

[Noel]

That's right.

[Ben]

To beat the snot out of them or kidnap their notable members or their family members until their percentage was paid.

[Noel]

And that's not to say that the female members of this gang weren't bruisers in and of themselves. Diamond Annie, for example, got her name because she had a fistful of diamond rings that if she clocked you in the face with, you'd probably lose an eye or, you know, you would not be doing very well. And they were known for wriggling out of tight situations with the law with violent methods. They'd carry blackjacks and straight razors and all kinds of concealed weapons. But for the big stuff, like you said, the door to door, you know, Give us our. What do you call, like our vig or whatever, you know, or like the. What do they call it in the Sopranos when they get in collections. Right. Going door to door. They left that to the big burly dudes.

[Ben]

Yeah. There might also be the matter of protection fees or something like that. Common mob.

[Noel]

Exactly, exactly.

[Ben]

They also did something that may surprise people. They. They diversified their crime, which makes it more Mafioso and less just street gang. They were very into blackmailing men, seducing married men or men of note, and then forcing them to pay either a huge lump sum or a continuing, almost a service fee not to reveal their carnal predilections.

[Noel]

Yeah, and we're kind of leaning on some of the most well known members of this gang, like Diamond Annie in particular, like you said. I mean, that book that MacDonald wrote focuses a lot on her. But there's a lot of periods in this gang history that we don't know a whole lot about other than that they. They did exist.

[Ben]

Right, right. Because they were also successful at functioning away from the spotlight. It's weird because for almost 200 years, you know, they were playing a very dangerous game. If any of them were caught, they could be sentenced to somewhere between 3 and 12 months hard labor or in prison. And hard labor at the time we've talked about this in previous episodes was absolutely no joke. You know, you're like, what is it? You're unraveling rope. I think that's one of the things you had to do. You're digging ditches. And despite these high risk and these serious consequences, a lot of the gang members, maybe even the majority, were long timers. Maggie Hughes or Babyface Maggie had shoplifting convictions that went back to the age of 4:14. And when these, as I think we said earlier, when these women or members of the gang were caught, they did have their own independent support system. So your family members or your dependents would be taken care of or they would help you fight the system, get out of jail. But another, I like that you mentioned the fact that there were many other people who were lost to history that were members of this gang. We know a few. There's for example, Ada Wellman, who was convicted of shoplifting from army and Navy stores in Victoria in 1921. And we know she was still an active member of the gang almost 20 years later because she shows up in police reports 18 years after her 1921 arrest when she got jailed for four months due to another crime. So these are career criminals. It's not like a side job. It doesn't sound like they were doing that thing. So common in heist movies where we'd say, you know, casey, Noel, let's get the gang back together for one last score.

[Noel]

No, this is a perma score. This is a life. I mean, this is a generational thing. If we're talking about 200 years of this, I'm gonna call it an organization, because that's clearly what it was, and it was maintained that way for quite a long time. You know, this stuff, these tricks of the trade would be passed down, you know, like. I mean, it's really fascinating.

[Ben]

There's a vile sickness in Abbas town. You must excise it, dig into the deep earth and cut it out. The village is ravaged. Entire families have been consumed. You know how waking up from a.

[Noel]

Dream, a familiar place can look completely alien? Get back, everyone.

[Ben]

He's got knacks. And if you see the devil walking around inside of another man, you must cut out the very heart of him, burn his body, and scatter the ashes in the furthest corner of this town. As a warning from iHeart podcasts and grim and mild from Aaron Manke, this is Havoc Town. A new fiction podcast sets in the Bridgewater audio universe, starring Jewel State and Ray Wise. Listen to Havoc town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The devil walks in Abbostown.

[Elena Sada]

At 19, Elena Sada believed she had found her calling. In the new season of Sacred Scandal, we pull back the curtain on a life built on devotion and deception. A man of God, Martial Maciel, looked Elena in the eye and promised her a life of purpose within the Legion of Christ.

[Noel]

My name is Elena Sada, and this is my story. It's a story of how I learned to hide, to cry, to survive, and eventually how I got out.

[Elena Sada]

This season on Sacred Scandal, hear the full story from the woman who lived it. Witness the journey from devout follower to determined survivor as Helena exposes the man behind the cloth and the system that protected him. Even the darkest secrets eventually find their way to the light. Listen to Sacred the mini secrets of Martial Maciel as part of the My Cultura podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Malcolm Gladwell here. This season on Revisionist History, we're going back to the spring of 1988 to a town in northwest Alabama where a man committed a crime that would spiral out of control. 35 years.

[Ben]

That's how long Elizabeth Senate's family waited for justice.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

To occur 35 long years. I want to figure out why this case went on for as long as it did, why it took so many bizarre and unsettling turns along the way, and why, despite our best efforts to resolve suffering, we all too often make suffering worse.

[Ben]

He would say to himself, turn to the right, to the victim's family and apologize. Turn to the left. Tell my family I love him. So he would have this little practice. To the right. I'm sorry. To the left. I love you.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

From revisionist history, this is the Alabama murders. Listen to revisionist history, the Alabama murders on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben]

So they had one, I guess, great problem that any shoplifting network will run into if they are successful. And the problem was they had abundance of stolen riches. How do they get rid of this? How do they take something that they have stolen, for instance, a unique piece of jewelry, right. Or very high quality clothing and. And translate that into cold, hard cash. This meant they had to create a distribution network so that they would, you know, because if they stole something and then just waited a week and started wearing those clothes or selling diamonds on the street, boom, they're back to hard labor again. So they instead relied on a network of fences and then unaffiliated street market traders and of course, pawn shops. So part of the clothing they stole would be just sold to a clothing store in the clothing store, just to make some scratch. All they would do is replace the labels. So you would say, oh, that's not a Hertfordshire blackfoot bustier. I'm just making stuff up.

[Noel]

No, no. You were close, though. I think one of the big stores they robbed had a very similar name to that.

[Ben]

And just like the gang itself, this network, while being fluid, also prospered for a long time. The 40 Thieves seem to have been at their glory days in the 1920s and 1930s. So that's why we know so much about Alice diamond or Diamond Annie, the woman with the punch to beware of. I guess we could talk a little bit about her background if you want, just briefly.

[Noel]

Oh, we absolutely should, Ben. But I do just want to point out the names of some of the biggest retail stores in London on the high street that they hit was because you made up a beautiful one. And it made me think of. It wasn't that far off, Ben. We've got Debenham and free Body.

[Ben]

Oh, what do they sell?

[Noel]

You know, ladies lingerie. It's more of a department store. They sell it all, you know, it's just sort of like a Sears type situation, I imagine.

[Ben]

A department store.

[Noel]

A department store.

[Ben]

Kind of a Harrods.

[Noel]

Exactly.

[Ben]

Okay, so since we are lucky enough to know a little bit about the notorious Alice diamond, let's look into her background. She was born in 1896, June of 1896, in Lambeth Workhouse Hospital. And diamond was her real name. It wasn't just a cool moniker. Her father was named Thomas Diamond. Her parents had applied for a maternity birth under the name of Black before they married because at the time, Alice would have been an illegitimate child because she had been born out of wedlock. However, since they decided instead to marry shortly before Alice was born to avoid the problem, her father had at least three criminal convictions, including one where he assaulted the son of the Lord Mayor of London by punching his head through a pane of glass in a door. And Alice turned out to be the eldest of seven children. One of her younger sisters also joined the forty Thieves gang. And one of her brothers, Tommy, became a member of the Elephant and Castle gang.

[Noel]

Bid. Can I just point out really quick that I have seen it as Alice and also Annie.

[Ben]

Yes.

[Noel]

Yeah, just real quick, because I was confused for a second. I was about to cop to saying the wrong name, and now I'm looking back over our sources and it's definitely both are said.

[Ben]

Like many criminals, she added Anne and Alice to her name or referred to herself as that multiple guy.

[Noel]

That makes perfect sense. It's like an alias so she can't get pinned down. There you go.

[Ben]

Just like sometimes I'll be Max Powers, astronaut with a secret. Or Chris from Boston, who again, is retired. We mentioned him on a previous episode.

[Noel]

People love Chris from Boston.

[Ben]

He just, you know, the brightest lights shine briefest. So here's to you, Chris.

[Noel]

That's sad.

[Ben]

It's good. It's okay. We've got to move on, you know, circle of life and all that. As far as aliases and AKAs go, Alice's or Anne's criminal career began in nineteen twenty twelve because she was caught stealing chocolate. In nineteen fifteen, she was officially named the Queen of the forty thieves. The previous queen was someone named Mary Carr, also known as Polly Carr. But we don't know a ton of stuff about Mary. We mostly know when it goes to who was the Queen of the 40 Thieves. We mostly know about Alice, who or Ann. And when you think about it, it sounds like a swashbuckling life or it sounds like a maybe a romanticized thing, but it was a brutal life and they believed that the only alternative to this would be a crushing existence in poverty, you know what I mean?

[Noel]

Or possibly crushed under the thumb of some man.

[Ben]

And they did live it up. They were well known for their parties, their soirees.

[Noel]

That's right. They would really throw down at pubs and social clubs. And I think the fact that they also, because of their reputation, I would imagine they were allowed and permitted to do things that other women would not be because people were scared of them and they didn't want to raise up. Right?

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Noel]

Because that wouldn't have been proper for a group of women to have a big old drunken to do. Right.

[Ben]

And that also gives them some support. That kind of lifestyle gives them some support in parts of the population.

[Noel]

Right.

[Ben]

Because, you know, if the 40 thieves or the 40 elephants are coming to the restaurant or the club or something, that it's gonna be a wild night.

[Noel]

Right.

[Ben]

I mean, you can party. You might get blackmailed later, but you could party. That's right.

[Noel]

I mean, they were getting the equivalent, the late 1800s equivalent of like, bottle service. You know, they were like, really, really dropping some cash.

[Ben]

And we do have to thank MacDonald. We can't thank him enough. Because Brian McDonald uncovered a lot of this previously unknown information by hitting the bricks, scouring official birth and death records, perusing marriage indexes, local newspaper reports, hunting down out of print books at the British Library to read contemporary accounts, and everything he found was verified. There's a thing where, like, imagine you grow up in a very impoverished situation and you say, well, I can slave away at a minimum wage job until I get ill, at which point I have to be consigned to the poor house or workhouse or something and probably die early of a disease that may well have been preventable. Or I can break social norms. I can not only become a criminal, but I can do it. Well, according to MacDonald, they idolized glamorous movie stars and the decadent living of the 1920s Flapper Society. So they read about the scandalous, salacious behavior of people born into privilege or celebrity, and they wanted to emulate them. In a way, it is very similar to the stories we hear now about modern drug dealers.

[Noel]

That's right.

[Ben]

You know, I mean, Atlanta is full of strip clubs.

[Noel]

Yeah. They want the chains, they want the grills, they want all this stuff, the status symbols or whatever, but ultimately they're living a very risky and potentially short existence in order to have those things.

[Ben]

Did I ever tell you about that excellent Freakonomics report that broke down how much per hour drug dealers actually make on average.

[Noel]

You were saying it wasn't great.

[Ben]

No, it's the opposite.

[Noel]

Unless you're like the distributor or whatever. Yeah, the high level individual that's really pulling the strings. That's where you make the big money.

[Ben]

Right. It's a very unfairly distributed hierarchy, typically. So if you want to learn more about that. It is tangentially related to this episode, but it's fascinating information nonetheless. I'd like to recommend a TED talk by the author Steven Levitt who presents the data he found on the finances of drug dealing. And these folks are not living the high life. It is much more. What's the best way to say it? No, it's just terrible. There's not a good way to say it. It's a terrible, terrible life. Don't sell drugs. I mean, if you're looking to make a lot of money off of it, don't expect to.

[Noel]

Well, how about forming a very organized cell based gang and doing smash and grabs for a living?

[Ben]

That would be. There's an interesting topic there too, Noel, because that would be much more difficult, at least here in the US in the. And definitely in the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom for a few years running now has had the largest amount of closed circuit television cameras, CCTV cameras per capita, I believe, in the world. So you're much more likely to get caught on film. Right. You're also much more easy to track if you have a cell phone since we all have those GPS locators on our phones. It was easier to get away with crime back then?

[Noel]

Oh, absolutely. I mean like it was just rampant. I can't imagine who would want to go into business. Have you seen the Ballad of Buster Scruggs yet?

[Ben]

Yeah, I've seen it. Seen it several times.

[Noel]

Makes me think of the bank teller kind of situation where you're just constantly on the ready with like guns loaded and pointed at every potential person that's gonna walk in that door and rob you. I would just think that some of these shopkeepers must have been quite foolish for at least a minute, you know, with to. To allow this kind of stuff to keep happening. I don't know. I wonder.

[Ben]

Well, and also what can you do if you have, if you have a small shop, are you supposed to continually employ five people just for security on the off chance that something happens one day? I mean, you're throwing money in a hole until the robbery happens.

[Noel]

That's right.

[Ben]

There's a vile sickness in Abbas town. You must excise it, dig into the deep earth and cut it Out. The village is ravaged. Entire families have been consumed. You know how waking up from a dream, a familiar place can look completely alien?

[Noel]

Get back, everyone.

[Ben]

And if you see the devil walking around inside of another man, you must cut out the very heart of him, burn his body, and scatter the ashes in the furthest corner of this town. As a warning from iHeart podcasts and grim and mild from Aaron Manke, this is Havoc Town, a new fiction podcast set in the Bridgewater audio universe, starring Jewel State and Ray Wise. Listen to Havoc town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. The devil walks in Abbas town.

[Elena Sada]

At 19, Elena Sada believed she had found her calling. In the new season of Sacred Scandal, we pull back the curtain on a life built on devotion and deception. A man of God, Martial Maciel, looked Elena in the eye and promised her a life of purpose within the Legion of Christ.

[Noel]

My name is Elena Sada, and this is my story. It's a story of how I learned to hide, to cry, to survive, and eventually, how I got out.

[Elena Sada]

This season on Sacred Scandal, hear the full story from the woman who lived it. Witness the journey from devout follower to determined survivor as Helena exposes the man behind the cloth and the system that protected him. Even the darkest secrets eventually find their way to the light. Listen to Sacred Scandal, the mini secrets of Marcial Maciel as part of the My Cultura podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Malcolm Gladwell here. This season on Revisionist History. We're going back to the spring of 1988, to a town in northwest Alabama where a man committed a crime that would spiral out of control. 35 years.

[Ben]

That's how long Elizabeth Senate's family waited for justice to occur.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

35 long years. I want to figure out why this case went on for as long as it did, why it took so many bizarre and unsettling turns along the way, and why, despite our best efforts to resolve suffering, we all too often make suffering worse.

[Ben]

He would say to himself, turn to the right.

[Noel]

Turn to.

[Ben]

To the victim's family and apologize. Turn to the left. Tell my family I love him. So he had this little practice. To the right. I'm sorry. To the left.

[Noel]

I love you.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

From Revisionist History, this is the Alabama Murders. Listen to Revisionist History, the Alabama murders on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben]

And maybe wondering, well, Ben. Well, Noel. Well, Casey, this sounds like quite an adventure. And it would make for a great film. But you guys are doing a history show. Are the 40 elephants still around today?

[Noel]

No. No, they're not. And again, you don't even really hear much about them at all until this book came out. But in the mid-20s, there was a member of the gang named Marie Britton, who kind of on her own, through her actions in this kind of chain of events led to the dissolution of this crime dynasty. I'm gonna call. I'm gonna go so far as to call it that.

[Ben]

200 years.

[Noel]

Is that a dynasty? I think that's a dynasty. So, yeah, she had fallen for a dude who was not a part of this seedy underworld. And, you know, it's a network, and it's sort of like west side Story, you know, where it's like the jets and the Sharks or whatever. You fall in love with a shark, it's not okay with the Jets. Right. This is a little different. This person was neither a shark nor a Jet. This person was outside of the world entirely.

[Ben]

They were a square. A civilian.

[Noel]

Exactly.

[Ben]

Because Marie had fallen in love with someone outside of London's underworld, she had also broken one of the gang's many internal rules. Thou shalt not date a square. So she was called up to see Alice and Baby Face Maggie, and Marie was scared. She brought along her father to protect her as her own muscle, essentially. And they, you know, we can speculate on the. The essence of their conversation. Alice and Maggie say, hey, you've got to drop this guy. He's lame. He's not in the.

[Noel]

He's not one of us.

[Ben]

He's not one of us. He's not in our crime sororities or affiliated crime fraternities. And Marie says, no, I'm not gonna do it. At which point Maggie whips out her aforementioned straight razor and attacks Marie's father.

[Noel]

Slice.

[Ben]

Yeah. And they escape. Marie and her father manage to escape, but Alice is not gonna let this go.

[Noel]

Alice sounds like a real tough cookie.

[Ben]

Oh, yeah.

[Noel]

She's poorly owned. Not for the. For the better necessarily. I mean, I guess if she's. She's the kind of person you probably want in your corner. But if you make an enemy of her, she's going to come at you with a straight razor, right? And she's going to come to your house and start hurling rocks through the windows and then force entry into the home and search manically for you. I'm speaking of myself as though I were Marie and my father, and they're going to ransack the place and in doing this, attract the attention of the police because it became a riot, basically.

[Ben]

Not, not sting. And the police, they weren't on the scene yet.

[Noel]

No.

[Ben]

So what, what happens? What happens?

[Noel]

Well, I mean, they slashed their way through this house looking for Marie and her father and ended up injuring some of the other folks that were around. And the cops came, the fuzz showed up, because this is a whole melee, you know. And the ringleader of the 40 elephants, Alice Diamonds. Diamond. Alice. Annie Diamonds. Diamond Annie was arrested.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Noel]

And it didn't go well for her.

[Ben]

No, it didn't. They went to trial. They were easily convicted. Alice and Maggie, that is because, you.

[Noel]

Know, this is Babyface Maggie.

[Ben]

Yeah, Babyface Maggie. Because they clearly did this. But the prosecution, despite the fact that there were multiple members of the gang attacking Marie's house, the prosecution only convicted or only even charged Alice and Maggie. Because you see, according to the rumors and the speculation, certain gentlemen in high places of society did not want the details of the blackmail activities to come to light. So maybe we can conjecture with a fair amount of certitude, maybe there were a couple of people in the government or high end business who said, look, you can convict the two ringleaders but Gray Tooth Desdemona can't go to court.

[Noel]

That's right.

[Ben]

My wife can't find out.

[Noel]

Yeah, that's right. And you know, subsequently there was a vacuum left behind because Annie, Diamond Annie, Diamond Alice, whatever you want to call her, the diamond, let's call her that, was put away and sentenced to hard labor for how many years?

[Ben]

Well, let's see, she was imprisoned in 1920 and the power vacuum has a pretty swift effect on the gang. By 1930 they're falling out of power, but people are still claiming membership of the gang and they're still shoplifting up into the 1950s.

[Noel]

But it sure seems like Diamond Annie is the one who kind of had that iron fisted control over the organization to the point where they existed almost as a central power in the London crime world. So when she went away, it kind of reverted back to this more petty thievery and they sort of lost their grip on the underworld in general.

[Ben]

Right, right. And by the 1950s, the gang had just lost too much power. Maggie Hill ended up dying in 1949. I don't know where she was buried, but her best friend was Alice diamond, obviously. And who's the in Casino? Is it Joe Pesci? Who's the wild card? Oh yeah, his character. Okay, so Maggie Hill, by way of comparison, is kind of the Joe Pesci of this group.

[Noel]

Yeah.

[Ben]

And there's not really a Robert De Niro. If there is, it's Alice. But she, in court, attempted to attack members of the court during the trial.

[Noel]

Was it with a pen?

[Ben]

Who knows? Who knows? She was like a, like a real life cartoon Tasmanian devil.

[Noel]

Yeah. But I also read that she did not keep her composure when sentenced. That she did cried and freaked out and like. Yeah, but like got really upset. Was not stoic at all.

[Ben]

Was very like emotional and railed against the court. Yes. Probably because she saw more than a few people associated with their crime ring in court.

[Noel]

That's right. On the other side with their pious wigs on.

[Ben]

We know that Alice diamond passed away in a place called Southwark, close to the east lane Market in 1952. So this gang pretty much, pretty much expire. It's death knell is the last imprisonment and then later the death of Diamond Alice or Diamond Anne. And that's not to say gangs don't continue in London today.

[Noel]

Oh no, for sure. But it's, you know, the thing about London too is you always hear about how gangs there don't use. There's not as much gun violence because they're a lot harder to get. So you gotta wonder if like the gang culture is kind of like been influenced by this more kind of crafty gang culture where it's more about like figuring stuff out and being sharp on your feet, you know what I mean? As opposed to just like running in and blasting up the place. Because you just don't hear about a lot of gun violence in London.

[Ben]

Not, not near as much as there is in the US or some other countries. But knives, we have to keep in mind. One of my old instructors used to always try to hammer this into our heads, that knives up close are more dangerous than guns.

[Noel]

Oh, for sure.

[Ben]

So they, they're probably walking around with some blades. A blade or two.

[Noel]

That's what I'm saying though. To wield a knife, you gotta be a little more brave and a little more clever and have a little more training, kind of, you know, you gotta know what to do with it.

[Ben]

Well said, well said. And for the record, I agree.

[Noel]

So I guess I'm saying way to go London crime world for being a little, a little less lazy.

[Ben]

I don't know if I agree with that, man. It's true though. While gangs still exist and even thrive in some parts of London, there's not really at this moment in time, something like the 40 elephants, unless you want to say the banking Cartels are gangs, but they rob people in a different way.

[Noel]

Very much so.

[Ben]

Do you like how I had to walk around the block to throw that little piece of shade in?

[Noel]

I loved it.

[Ben]

I'm telling you, man, the City of London itself, it's sketchy. The whole thing's sketchy. But that is the story of the 40 thieves, the 40 elephants.

[Noel]

Alice Diamond. Diamond Alice. Annie Diamonds.

[Ben]

Diamond Annie.

[Noel]

Diamond Annie. Yeah.

[Ben]

The all female crime syndicate or dynasty, which we think is appropriate here, who ran shoplifting and somehow got away with it for almost two centuries.

[Noel]

I want to see their, like, internal records, you know, for that 200 years. Like, I want to see the turnover of, like, who. Who was in charge. If any of that was on paper, it probably wasn't. It was probably all just like, Orel.

[Ben]

I wonder. Yeah, because it's a huge liability to have something like that laid around. But it's prestigious and it would also really help out Marnie Dickens, who, as of 2017, was developing a series on the 40 elephants or 40 thieves for the BBC. And it has the potential to be a Peaky Blinders kind of thing. Did you ever see that show?

[Noel]

I started watching. I think I watched the first season and I like it.

[Ben]

Yeah, I think I saw the first episode and I started wondering whether I should also carry a razor around in my hat.

[Noel]

Yeah. Our boss Connell really likes it a lot.

[Ben]

I could see that. That's classic Connell. Have you ever seen Peaky Blinders, Casey? No, I don't think I've even heard of it.

[Noel]

Yeah, it's got Cillian Murphy in it. It's about a gang in Ireland. I want to say, though, Right. Wasn't it an Irish gang, like around the same time, in the early 20s? Don't know that they were around for 200 years, though.

[Ben]

No. Would you guys watch a show based on this crime syndicate?

[Noel]

Yes.

[Ben]

I would, too. I'm wondering who they would cast. Let us know who you think would play an excellent Alice or Annie diamond and who is unhinged enough to be a baby Face Maggie in your book.

[Noel]

You know who I could picture as being Babyface Maggie?

[Ben]

Who's that?

[Noel]

Melissa McCarthy.

[Ben]

I like it.

[Noel]

She's got some acting chops, man.

[Ben]

She does have some chops.

[Noel]

She does all these kind of goofy comedy movies, but I think she's got the.

[Ben]

She's got the range.

[Noel]

I think she's got it, man.

[Ben]

Yeah. Yeah, I like that. I'm gonna think about this and come back. It is the end of the episode. Which means that if we are still carrying on this tradition, my friend, it is time for us to give a comic book recommendation or two.

[Noel]

Wow. We're gonna keep going with this, huh?

[Ben]

Well, we said we would give it a shot.

[Noel]

I like it. Have you read Saga? Yes, by Brian K. Vaughan? I've only read a little bit of it. And again, I'm not as much of a comic head as you are, but I have enough of an idea of what's out there to give a recommendation for a couple episodes. But yeah, check out Saga by Brian K. Vaughn. It's sort of a sci fi star crossed space adventure. Is that a good way of referring to it?

[Ben]

Yeah. That's great. Yeah, it breaks a lot of genre rules. I think you'll really enjoy it.

[Noel]

He also wrote why the Last man, which I did read every moment of, about the last man on Earth after a disease kind of wipes out the male population. And this one dude's still around. Everyone else is female. That's a good recommendation for this episode, actually. Yeah, that was actually mine. No way. Oh, no, my bad. I only said it because it's Brian K. Vaughan. Same writer.

[Ben]

He's a great writer.

[Noel]

And I believe that's being adapted into a big old series right now.

[Ben]

Right, right. And for people who have yet to read it, this won't spoil anything. There is a character in why the last man named Agent 355. And that comes from a real and mysterious part of early US History. So if you want to learn more about the Real Life Agent 355, check out our other show stuff they don't want you to know.

[Noel]

That was just recent, wasn't it?

[Ben]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don't want to ruin it, but check it out.

[Noel]

Do, please. And in the meantime, always, always want to thank Casey Pegram, our super producer. I don't know where we'd be without you. We would sound like fools, that's for sure. So thank you to Casey. Thank you to Alex Williams, who composed our theme.

[Ben]

Yes. And thank you to Christopher Haciotes, our research associate for this episode. Thanks also to our other research associates, Yves and Gabe. Thank you, Noel. And thank you for listening, folks. Hope this, I don't know, I don't want to say. I hope this inspires people because I don't want us to get characterized as the inspiration behind a new gang of jewel thieves.

[Noel]

You know what you do, you people out there, whatever you think, be the change you want to see in the world.

[Ben]

So also let us know if you have found a story of another crime ring this successful because regardless of your opinions about the internal, internal workings or the consequences or their own strategies, there's no arguing with it. They were very, very successful. You can tell us about this on Instagram, you can find us on Twitter, you can visit us on Facebook, where we'd love to introduce you to your fellow ridiculous historians on our community page. Ridiculous Historians.

[Noel]

For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Ben]

There's a viral sickness in Ambas Town. You must excise it. Dig into the deep earth and cut it out. From iheart Podcasts and Grim and Mild from Aaron Manke. This is Havoc T, a new fiction podcast set in the Bridgewater Audio universe starring Jewel State and Ray Wise. Listen to Havoc town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Noel]

Sacred Scandal is Back, the hit true crime podcast that uncovers hidden truths and shattered faith. For 19 years, Elena Sada was a nun for the Legion of Christ. This season, she's telling her story. When I first when I first joined the Legion of Christ, I felt chosen. I was 19 years old when Marcia Almasel, the leader of the Legionaries, looked me in the eye and told me I had a calling. Surviving meant hiding. Escaping took courage. Risking everything to tell her truth. Listen to Sacred Scandal, the many secrets of Martial maciel on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Malcolm Gladwell here This season on Revisionist History. We're going back to the spring of 1988 to a town in northwest Alabama where a man committed a crime that would spiral out of control.

[Ben]

And he said, I've been in prison 24, 25 years. That's probably not long enough. I didn't kill him.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

From Revisionist History, this is the Alabama Murders. Listen to Revisionist History, the Alabama murders on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben]

Hear insightful, entertaining discussions on today's important.

[Noel]

Health and wellness topics on the Health Discovered podcast.

[Ben]

From web through in depth conversations with experts, Health Discovered covers everything from tips.

[Noel]

For healthier living to the latest on therapy and mental health.

[Ben]

My goal is to really destigmatize mental health treatment and looking at it from a whole health perspective, physical health and mental health can be intertwined. Listen to WebMD Health discovered on the.

[Noel]

Iheartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben]

This is an iHeart podcast.